This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect There taking the hobbits to isengard. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 23#There taking the hobbits to isengard until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 16:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect They taking the hobbits to isengard. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 23#They taking the hobbits to isengard until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 16:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear Cohobbits,
The title Lord of the Rings does not seem to make sense. The books are about the Ring Bearer Frodo and his mission for the common good, an inverted medieval quest, this time to get rid of a mythical object. Sauron loses out and is only a character in the deep background. Can someone explain (perhaps even the Tolkien heirs?) and put the clarification in the article? Thanks, Hansmuller ( talk) 19:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
The Lord of the Rings is mentioned a few times in the books. Before, during and after the Council of Elrond various characters refer to Sauron as the Lord of the Rings, and Frodo’s internal title of the book is “THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING”. GimliDotNet ( talk) 16:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
“ | Hurray!' cried Pippin, springing up. 'Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!'. 'Hush!' said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. 'Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world! ... | ” |
— J.R.R. Tolkien, The lord of the rings. Part one. The fellowship of the ring, Ballantine Books New York, 1969, sixth printing, p. 298, Book II Chapter 1 Many Meetings, pocket book edition) |
(To be finnicky: Frodo is proposed and rejected as Lord of the Ring, of a single ring, not of the rings (plural).) Jack, you mention this in the article? I had forgotten about this. It is your find, thanks, Hansmuller ( talk) 07:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi. Just a minor quibble, do we really need all those citations for the plot elements? The MOS for novels says they're unnecessary for the narrative and it's not common elsewhere. I personally find them somewhat distracting. The article looks great though otherwise. Scribolt ( talk) 15:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm not sure the long-expected party with its fireworks and the disappearance of Bilbo should be described as quiet. Then in "The Shadow of the Past", Gandalf drops a bombshell, and the Black Riders appear in "Three in Company". Perhaps "homely" would be a better word. Secondly, the Shire is really not like the English countryside that has ever existed. It has medieval elements and Edwardian elements mixed together, and of course it is inhabited by hobbits. Perhaps "reminiscent" would be a better word. Thirdly, do we need to use the term "War of the Ring"? It's ambiguous and rarely used in the book. Fourthly, it's not true the story is told through the eyes of the four hobbits. There is a strand of the story from "The Departure of Boromir" to "Flotsam and Jetsam" where no hobbits appear.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This isn't an article on Middle-earth in film, containing as is proper only a short summary covering 'the main points'. The mention of filmmakers who considered the project is meant only to give an indication that they were many and famous; it is not, and should not attempt to be, a full list, though perhaps such a thing would be appropriate for the more detailed article (or in the case of people who only thought about it momentarily, perhaps not). I've therefore removed the mention of Henson (and omitted several other such passing players). The attention here is rightly on the book, with a film section essentially as an aside. Hope this is fine with everybody. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 13:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Is he really evil and does he control much of the forest?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:15, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Dear Chiswick Chap,
This is a warning to User:Chiswick Chap and/or other users, that a hatnote is necessary and in accordance with Wikipedia:Hatnote#Ambiguous_term_that_redirects_to_an_unambiguously_named_article, that repeatedly removing valid content without any reason is vandalism, and that showing no sign of communication by themselves but accusing another user of editwarring straightaway is uncivil behaviour.
Reverts without any reason: [1] [2].
No discussion initiated on this page or on Talk:LOTR by these users.
Uncivil accusation: [3].
These users have not editted LOTR either, so it remains as a redirect to this page, which makes a hatnote necessary.-- RZuo ( talk) 11:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Can't we just say balrog?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
Why not remove the word “novel” (keeping the footnote), make “epic” the noun and call it a “high-fantasy epic”? Merry medievalist ( talk) 04:20, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Not sure he thought 'epic' any better, but key point here is that a million IPs will add the word 'novel' straight back again as they 'know' that's the thing. All the best, Chiswick Chap ( talk) 05:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
At the moment, Chiswick Chap is on a crusade to purge all mentions of Magic: The Gathering from relevant sections of articles about things that influenced, or are featured in, that game. No rational reason for this has been given except "not a list". If Chiswick Chap wants to cut down on the number of listed games, that's fine, but let's start by cutting the ones that most people have never heard of. The Wikipedia article on MtG says it had 35 million players (current, not the total number of people who had ever played) in a fairly recent year. By contrast, the entire Ultima series put together had sold a whopping 2 million copies by 1997, the peak of its popularity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.70.13.107 ( talk) 10:25, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Is there a citation to say this means Sauron? It could mean the One Ring itself, lord of all the other rings. 24.4.136.172 ( talk) 18:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I ran across a couple of articles on the Battle of Droizy and was surprised to find that there was no page on the topic. I created the current one. That Battle, however, is apparently the earliest documentation of an army of 'trees.' That story quite likely inspired both Macbeth, and LOR. I think it would be of interest to readers, but I can't see how to logically work it into the page. BooksXYZ ( talk) 23:05, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
The only way is to find a scholar who suggests that, and cite their research from a reliable journal. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
One main area in which the article could be improved is by adding more pictures. There are very few pictures in what is quite a long article, and adding a few more would be beneficial, especially in the earlier sections about Tolkien's early drafts and writing process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvelraj ( talk • contribs) 14:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: "Prehistory" being defined as "before the existence of writing", neither The Hobbit nor The Lord of the Rings are set in prehistory, since Bilbo and later Frodo were writing a journal of their adventures, which ended up as the Red Book of Westmarch. Other written documents, and the writing on the Ring, are also essential to the intrigue. — Tonymec ( talk) 14:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
In “Legacy > Influence on fantasy” there is a minimal reference/link to The Last Ringbearer. I think there needs to be a short description of this book here (maybe 3-4 short sentences?), in part because it is easily the most original “alternate interpretation” of the LotR in existence, and in part because it was written in Russia by a Russian, which gives it a completely different flavor than Western adaptations. 84.212.81.79 ( talk) 20:46, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
JRR Tolkien said himself that The Lord of the Rings was a catholic/christian work, so should we maybe put “Christian Novels” in the category section? Thoughts. Wolfquack ( talk) 01:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The caption under the photo of the One Ring with its inscription glowing is so strange that I cannot figure out what the author was trying to say. If I could make sense of it, I'd clean it up. Perhaps someone who does understand it can do that? Jyg ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. The summary of the narrative is shared with the three articles on the individual volumes, which have their own, unshared, reception sections. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 03:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Do we have evidence that The Lord is Sauron? What rules out that the One Ring is the Lord in the title? It would be a shame to lead the article with a statement that crushes a possibly intended ambiguity 82.152.203.16 ( talk) 14:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Under the section "Concept and Creation", in the "Writing" subsection, the first paragraph ends with:
As the story progressed, he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology.
The reference for the above statement is as follows:
Rérolle, Raphaëlle (5 December 2012). "My Father's 'Eviscerated' Work – Son Of Hobbit Scribe J. R. R. Tolkien Finally Speaks Out". Le Monde/Worldcrunch. Archived from the original on 10 February 2013.
The claim "he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology" is not explicitly or even implicitly mentioned in the cited article. The closest related idea from the article is perhaps:
In 1937, as soon as it was published, The Hobbit immediately became a critical and popular success, to the point where its then publisher, Allen and Unwin, demanded a sequel urgently. Tolkien, though, did not wish to continue in the same vein. He had instead almost finished a narrative of the most ancient times of his universe, which he called The Silmarillion. Too difficult, decreed the publisher, who continued to harass him. The writer, a bit half-heartedly, accepted the project of writing a new story. In fact, he was about to set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.
But there is no indication that as the writing of the Lord of the Rings books progressed, the author leveraged more elements from the previously unfinished book. The article states the writer accepted the project of writing a new story, implying that work stopped on the previous project. No connection is stated between the contents of the previously unfinished work and the new project; it is only after stopping the old work and accepting the new project that the writer would "set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.".
I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. Johnalexjay ( talk) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
As similar as The Lord of the Rings is to Wagner's works ergo The Ring of the Nibelung, I'd have thought there would have been some mention in this article. 73.214.121.179 ( talk) 04:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The Plot section of the article is way too long. It just gives the plot outlines from their respective pages verbatim. Inclusion of the Prologue is unnecessary here (as it's on the FOTR page) and the Appendices need not be so detailed here either. The plot of each of the volumes should be condensed and need not be split by book - this level of detail should be left for the individual volume pages. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 13:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Another source claims sales figures of 100 million prior to 2003. "Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series." https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/tolkien-proves-hes-still-the-king/article_80f1a604-79c8-505a-8ab3-9e0f9f3e67a4.html 149.76.165.40 ( talk) 03:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect There taking the hobbits to isengard. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 23#There taking the hobbits to isengard until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 16:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect They taking the hobbits to isengard. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 23#They taking the hobbits to isengard until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 16:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear Cohobbits,
The title Lord of the Rings does not seem to make sense. The books are about the Ring Bearer Frodo and his mission for the common good, an inverted medieval quest, this time to get rid of a mythical object. Sauron loses out and is only a character in the deep background. Can someone explain (perhaps even the Tolkien heirs?) and put the clarification in the article? Thanks, Hansmuller ( talk) 19:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
The Lord of the Rings is mentioned a few times in the books. Before, during and after the Council of Elrond various characters refer to Sauron as the Lord of the Rings, and Frodo’s internal title of the book is “THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING”. GimliDotNet ( talk) 16:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
“ | Hurray!' cried Pippin, springing up. 'Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!'. 'Hush!' said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. 'Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world! ... | ” |
— J.R.R. Tolkien, The lord of the rings. Part one. The fellowship of the ring, Ballantine Books New York, 1969, sixth printing, p. 298, Book II Chapter 1 Many Meetings, pocket book edition) |
(To be finnicky: Frodo is proposed and rejected as Lord of the Ring, of a single ring, not of the rings (plural).) Jack, you mention this in the article? I had forgotten about this. It is your find, thanks, Hansmuller ( talk) 07:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi. Just a minor quibble, do we really need all those citations for the plot elements? The MOS for novels says they're unnecessary for the narrative and it's not common elsewhere. I personally find them somewhat distracting. The article looks great though otherwise. Scribolt ( talk) 15:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm not sure the long-expected party with its fireworks and the disappearance of Bilbo should be described as quiet. Then in "The Shadow of the Past", Gandalf drops a bombshell, and the Black Riders appear in "Three in Company". Perhaps "homely" would be a better word. Secondly, the Shire is really not like the English countryside that has ever existed. It has medieval elements and Edwardian elements mixed together, and of course it is inhabited by hobbits. Perhaps "reminiscent" would be a better word. Thirdly, do we need to use the term "War of the Ring"? It's ambiguous and rarely used in the book. Fourthly, it's not true the story is told through the eyes of the four hobbits. There is a strand of the story from "The Departure of Boromir" to "Flotsam and Jetsam" where no hobbits appear.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This isn't an article on Middle-earth in film, containing as is proper only a short summary covering 'the main points'. The mention of filmmakers who considered the project is meant only to give an indication that they were many and famous; it is not, and should not attempt to be, a full list, though perhaps such a thing would be appropriate for the more detailed article (or in the case of people who only thought about it momentarily, perhaps not). I've therefore removed the mention of Henson (and omitted several other such passing players). The attention here is rightly on the book, with a film section essentially as an aside. Hope this is fine with everybody. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 13:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Is he really evil and does he control much of the forest?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:15, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Dear Chiswick Chap,
This is a warning to User:Chiswick Chap and/or other users, that a hatnote is necessary and in accordance with Wikipedia:Hatnote#Ambiguous_term_that_redirects_to_an_unambiguously_named_article, that repeatedly removing valid content without any reason is vandalism, and that showing no sign of communication by themselves but accusing another user of editwarring straightaway is uncivil behaviour.
Reverts without any reason: [1] [2].
No discussion initiated on this page or on Talk:LOTR by these users.
Uncivil accusation: [3].
These users have not editted LOTR either, so it remains as a redirect to this page, which makes a hatnote necessary.-- RZuo ( talk) 11:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Can't we just say balrog?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
Why not remove the word “novel” (keeping the footnote), make “epic” the noun and call it a “high-fantasy epic”? Merry medievalist ( talk) 04:20, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Not sure he thought 'epic' any better, but key point here is that a million IPs will add the word 'novel' straight back again as they 'know' that's the thing. All the best, Chiswick Chap ( talk) 05:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
At the moment, Chiswick Chap is on a crusade to purge all mentions of Magic: The Gathering from relevant sections of articles about things that influenced, or are featured in, that game. No rational reason for this has been given except "not a list". If Chiswick Chap wants to cut down on the number of listed games, that's fine, but let's start by cutting the ones that most people have never heard of. The Wikipedia article on MtG says it had 35 million players (current, not the total number of people who had ever played) in a fairly recent year. By contrast, the entire Ultima series put together had sold a whopping 2 million copies by 1997, the peak of its popularity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.70.13.107 ( talk) 10:25, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Is there a citation to say this means Sauron? It could mean the One Ring itself, lord of all the other rings. 24.4.136.172 ( talk) 18:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I ran across a couple of articles on the Battle of Droizy and was surprised to find that there was no page on the topic. I created the current one. That Battle, however, is apparently the earliest documentation of an army of 'trees.' That story quite likely inspired both Macbeth, and LOR. I think it would be of interest to readers, but I can't see how to logically work it into the page. BooksXYZ ( talk) 23:05, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
The only way is to find a scholar who suggests that, and cite their research from a reliable journal. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
One main area in which the article could be improved is by adding more pictures. There are very few pictures in what is quite a long article, and adding a few more would be beneficial, especially in the earlier sections about Tolkien's early drafts and writing process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvelraj ( talk • contribs) 14:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: "Prehistory" being defined as "before the existence of writing", neither The Hobbit nor The Lord of the Rings are set in prehistory, since Bilbo and later Frodo were writing a journal of their adventures, which ended up as the Red Book of Westmarch. Other written documents, and the writing on the Ring, are also essential to the intrigue. — Tonymec ( talk) 14:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
In “Legacy > Influence on fantasy” there is a minimal reference/link to The Last Ringbearer. I think there needs to be a short description of this book here (maybe 3-4 short sentences?), in part because it is easily the most original “alternate interpretation” of the LotR in existence, and in part because it was written in Russia by a Russian, which gives it a completely different flavor than Western adaptations. 84.212.81.79 ( talk) 20:46, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
JRR Tolkien said himself that The Lord of the Rings was a catholic/christian work, so should we maybe put “Christian Novels” in the category section? Thoughts. Wolfquack ( talk) 01:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The caption under the photo of the One Ring with its inscription glowing is so strange that I cannot figure out what the author was trying to say. If I could make sense of it, I'd clean it up. Perhaps someone who does understand it can do that? Jyg ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. The summary of the narrative is shared with the three articles on the individual volumes, which have their own, unshared, reception sections. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 03:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Do we have evidence that The Lord is Sauron? What rules out that the One Ring is the Lord in the title? It would be a shame to lead the article with a statement that crushes a possibly intended ambiguity 82.152.203.16 ( talk) 14:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Under the section "Concept and Creation", in the "Writing" subsection, the first paragraph ends with:
As the story progressed, he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology.
The reference for the above statement is as follows:
Rérolle, Raphaëlle (5 December 2012). "My Father's 'Eviscerated' Work – Son Of Hobbit Scribe J. R. R. Tolkien Finally Speaks Out". Le Monde/Worldcrunch. Archived from the original on 10 February 2013.
The claim "he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology" is not explicitly or even implicitly mentioned in the cited article. The closest related idea from the article is perhaps:
In 1937, as soon as it was published, The Hobbit immediately became a critical and popular success, to the point where its then publisher, Allen and Unwin, demanded a sequel urgently. Tolkien, though, did not wish to continue in the same vein. He had instead almost finished a narrative of the most ancient times of his universe, which he called The Silmarillion. Too difficult, decreed the publisher, who continued to harass him. The writer, a bit half-heartedly, accepted the project of writing a new story. In fact, he was about to set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.
But there is no indication that as the writing of the Lord of the Rings books progressed, the author leveraged more elements from the previously unfinished book. The article states the writer accepted the project of writing a new story, implying that work stopped on the previous project. No connection is stated between the contents of the previously unfinished work and the new project; it is only after stopping the old work and accepting the new project that the writer would "set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.".
I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. Johnalexjay ( talk) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
As similar as The Lord of the Rings is to Wagner's works ergo The Ring of the Nibelung, I'd have thought there would have been some mention in this article. 73.214.121.179 ( talk) 04:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The Plot section of the article is way too long. It just gives the plot outlines from their respective pages verbatim. Inclusion of the Prologue is unnecessary here (as it's on the FOTR page) and the Appendices need not be so detailed here either. The plot of each of the volumes should be condensed and need not be split by book - this level of detail should be left for the individual volume pages. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 13:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Another source claims sales figures of 100 million prior to 2003. "Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series." https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/tolkien-proves-hes-still-the-king/article_80f1a604-79c8-505a-8ab3-9e0f9f3e67a4.html 149.76.165.40 ( talk) 03:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)