This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I put this at A-class for the Middle-earth WikiProject, and B-class for the others. People are welcome to do a GA nomination if they wish. I think the better approach is to work on the issues raised at the Featured Article Review and then resubmit it for FA in a month or so, but only if the work has been done. Carcharoth ( talk) 08:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi folks, just to inform those who are interested in editing, reference #22 returns HTTP 404.
Öncel Acar ( talk) 02:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the synopsis, I was wondering if it should be rewritten to show the events happening as they did in the books. For example, you might move the opening paragraph lower down (since this information isn't revealed right away). Mario777Zelda ( talk) 02:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
The article makes a cursory mention of one article that criticized the movies as "dumbing down" Tolkien and creating a barrier to Tolkien studies. This is a really myopic representation of the field of Tolkien studies, which is expanding rapidly and contributing to the transformation of academia's understanding of LotR. See the Tolkien Studies journal, for one: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/tolkien_studies/toc/tks1.1.html
If someone who has the time and inclination to research Tolkien Studies could do some more work on this, it would be much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spencimusprime ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Please stop reverting the addition of "(often abbreviated LotR)". If you doubt the validity of the claim, feel free to discuss it here, but I think you'll have a hard time arguing against 3,000,000 Google hits for " lord of the rings +lotr", the existence of an Lotr redirect since 2004, the consistent use of the abbreviation on this discussion page, and its frequent use on fan sites and in academic literature. DES ( talk) 09:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This article (I think) should not be in Category:Trilogies. According to the article on Trilogy, it is not a trilogy, though it is often referred to as such. Does being "often referred to as such" warrant it being in Category:Trilogies? I don't think so. So, if you approve, I'll remove it from that category. Darth Newdar ( talk) 14:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Removed misinformation about Nightwish:
The Finnish symphonic power metal group Nightwish take much inspiration for their music from Tolkien's works, including the entire Wishmaster album, and many of their songs on later albums, including the cover of Gary Moore's "Over The Hills And Far Away".
Not a single word of truth. Wishmaster is not a concept album, and features only one song at least to mention a Tolkien's character. It is not even Tolkien-themed, as there are references to Dragonlance series, and other fantasy fiction. Over the Hills and Far Away is a song about a man tried for a roberry he didn't commit. It has no reference to Tolkien themes. Of all Nightwish songs, hardly two or three are Tolkien-inspired.-- Garret Beaumain ( talk) 21:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't imagine that this is particularly notable, but there were at least two British publishing houses for 8-bit computer programs that took their names (possibly indirectly) from LotR: the games publisher M.C. Lothlorien and the Amstrad publisher Arnor. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
In czech LOTR means rogue / scoundrel / villain / varlet ... In czech FOTR means gaffer or pops. It originated from german Vater and sometimes it's rude to say it. You can be sure people noticed it. It might be enough just to let it here. Because it might be interesting trivia for some. 86.61.232.26 ( talk) 17:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I take issue with the use of the word "sentient" in the introduction. When describing science fiction and fantasy, people often use the word "sentient" when what they actually mean is "sapient." Sentience refers to the ability to perceive, while sapience refers to human-like, advanced intelligence. Should the word be changed in the introduction, or should it be left alone considering its usual usage as a misnomer in literary parlance? I vote for changing it. -- n-k, 23:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, sentient is the wrong word. But this whole sentence is pretty bad. The structure is awful. And are not Ents and Trolls also humanoid? Are Balrogs "creatures"? Can we rewrite this in such a way that it doesn't end up being such a catalog, but reflects rather that many of the non-human animals of Middle-earth are capable of rational speech? Elphion ( talk) 02:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This synopsis, and especially its opening lines, follow the story of Peter Jackson's film, not JRR Tolien's trilogy. FOTR does not begin with scenes of Sauron forging the ring, nor with the story of Izildur, but with Bilbo's birthday... There's a problem there, I think. I will not edit for now - what do the others think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.143.100.253 ( talk) 10:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
-- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 01:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)The story takes place in the context of historical events in Middle-earth. In those histories, prior to the start of the novel and not known to the main characters, Sauron forges the Ruling Ring of Power in Mordor.
In this article, the Nazgûl are consistently referred to as the Ringwraiths. Is this correct? I would of thought Nazgûl is the correct title for them. Darth Newdar (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Several of the current references are to a PDF from the Web (actually from the Web Archive) with no provenance, not even an author:
I'm not judging the information therein, but it would be nice to replace this with something more authoritative.
Elphion (
talk) 06:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's encyclopedic to be introducing information from Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit or the Silmarillion into the description of the Lord of the Rings. I think the purpose of the Synopisis and Character summary is to cover the information given in the published work, rather than present an intertextual overview of various draft pieces and marginalia. Perhaps a separate section on what was edited out of LoTR for space reasons which was eventually published in UT would be good. Or am I being over-zealous? -- Davémon ( talk) 21:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Several other novels of this size on Wikipedia have not only a major character list, but a minor character list. Could we get one? It's much easier to find a random character if they have a name on the main page. I'm not talking about links to their own personal pages, but just a list of some of the more important minor characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.96.104.70 ( talk) 21:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(I'm surprised that no one has noticed yet, but...)
This article is labelled as being written in British English, yet it is written in American English.
The "Lord of the Rings" originated in Britain and therefore bears strong cultural ties to the country. It is even exemplified as such under the Wikipedia Manual of Style ( See WP:BrE ) as "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the English of that nation."
On these grounds I'm going to attempt to rectify the spelling variations within the article to British English standards. ( When I have time, that is.)
This is also my first post/attempt at editing on Wikipedia so if I mess up, sorry in advance. Gilly of III ( talk) 15:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the Oxford English Dictionary specify -ize as the correct British spelling. Strange but true. -- Spanglej ( talk) 21:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Wow. I wasn't aware of the whole "Oxford English" spelling situation, sorry about that. I guess I got a little edit-happy. Next time I edit I'll wait for a reply in the discussion page first. Sorry guys. I guess on the bright-side, I learnt something new today :D. Gilly of III ( talk) 03:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering this article is meant to be written in Oxford English, shouldn't the word be "mass-commercialization" rather than "mass-commercialisation"? I won't edit anything without any feedback, though. (I've embarrassed myself enough as it is. :p ) "Mass-commercialisation" is used under Reception, and the word "Industrialision" is used under the Influences section. Regards, Gilly of III ( talk) 08:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This might seem a little convoluted/unnecessary, but, under the section Impact on Popular Culture the word "authorised" is used within quotation marks without specifically mentioning where it is quoted from. And even if it is quoted from a reputable source, it would seem unnecessary to include two forms of the word "authorised" within the same article without any apparent need. Without citation, and unless it forms part of a more substantial quote, I suggest the quotation marks be removed and the spelling be adjusted. (Using the word authorised without quotation is not plagiarism). I think I have confused myself. Anyway, sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, but I actually like people correcting me, so feel free to if you want. Oh, and thanks for the feedback, Thu. Regards, Gilly of III ( talk) 08:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Every time I read the book or see the films there seems a glaring hole in the LoTR plot. Gandalf is imprisoned on the tower of Isengard by Saruman and eventually escapes via a giant eagle. Later the council meet and decide that the ring must be destroyed, Frodo will take it to Mordor and a fellowship will help him. At the end the eagles come to rescue Frodo and bring him off the collapsing Mount Doom. So why is it that the Council don't decide at the beginning to send Frodo and Sam (or others) by eagle to Mount Doom (a matter of hours, it would seem) and have done? Why the long and dangerous hoik by foot when quick, personal and quasi magical creatures await?
What d'you think? (Yes, with that plot it would be a very short and much duller book). -- Spanglej ( talk) 21:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a newbie, and have never made a Wikipedia comment, but I thought this was worthy of comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.219.153.78 ( talk) 14:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
This page seems to return "cite error" when accessed. Im not sure as to why this might be happening - maybe a <ref> tag has been opened but not closed properly but I am notsure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawkeye33 ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
This article, overall, appears to be well-written, well-referenced, and comprehensive. What is keeping it from regaining Featured Article status? Or, to put it another way, if it was nominated for FA status, why would it fail? I don't think that it needs much work, and could perhaps be a FA by the end of the year. Mario777Zelda ( talk) 15:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
In the section Further reading is the title: David Day, "The World Tolkien: The Mythological Sources of The Lord of the Rings" (2004). Is this correct? Is it related to Tolkien's Ring? Wiki-uk ( talk) 15:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a picture of what appears to be a mismatched set of the LoTR books? It doesn't seem to add anything to the article. Nave.notnilc ( talk) 22:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to reduce the 'Music' subsection of the 'Legacy' section to a single paragraph and merge it into the following 'Impact on popular culture' subsection, as a more detailed cataloguing of this information is already available on the 'Works inspired by...' page. Some of the other minor details in the Legacy section I think are unnecessary also, for the same reason. I will wait a few days for comment before I proceed with this. Genedecanter ( talk) 10:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Davémon suggested above that some work should be done on the synopsis to move the article back toward FA status, and I agree. I was wondering what you all though of splitting it into three sub-sections, one for each volume of the novel? It could be a way to make it more visually appealing. – The Fiddly Leprechaun · Catch Me! 23:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Lately 82.14.7.18 has been fighting AVBOT to change "orc" to "Uruk-hai" in reference to the party that kidnap Merry and Pippin. AVBOT is mistaken: this is a good faith edit. However, I think the previous text is better. In the first place, the party was not composed only of Uruk-hai -- there were lesser breeds along as well. Secondly, 82.14.7.18 argues that the Uruk-hai are not orcs at all, but this clearly is not what Tolkien intended, as our own article Uruk-hai points out. "Orcs" says all that is really necessary in the scope of a synopsis, and it is not incorrect. -- Elphion ( talk) 04:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I just made this edit because I felt a distinction was needed between the two races as they are after all, different races. Although orcs where used in the creation of Uruk-hai they are not the same race as orcs. Uruk-hai are a hybreed of men and orcs and can differ from them in several ways, and although orcs do later join the Uruk-hai after the abduction of Merry and Pippin, it was primarily the Uruk-hai that carried out the capture discussed in the synopsis. I feel this distinction should be made between the two because Tolkien puts emphasis on their differences himself to emphasis the terror of the Uruk-hai compared to mere Orcs. Saying Uruk-hai are Orcs is like saying lions and the domesticated cat are the same thing. Sure one may have descended from the other but they are not the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinity3Sixty ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
In the cinematic movie of The Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship of The Ring, it begins with Suaron (wielding the one ring)fighting off the crusade on him. Since Suaron has the one ring on his finger shouldn't he be invisible, as in all the other times the ring is worn by others?
This may have already been dealt with, but it seems odd to me that under influences there is no mention of Wagner's Ring cycle. I appreciate that there are many ring myths, but the cycle was by far the most dominant in Tolkien's time and indeed was widely regarded as one of the greatest ever works of art. Given the huge similarities between the two stories, even Gollum and Alberich are strikingly alike, I find it inconceivable that Tolkein wasn't directly influenced by Wagner's epic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 ( talk) 18:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Had you sat through Das Rheingold back in the 50's (which one should point out has no Nieztchean influence in it at all) and strode out of the theatre only to be handed a summary of a new book called Lord of the Rings, you would have rightly giggled at the suggestion that one of the world’s most famous operas, and the greatest dramatisation of Norse myth, had not crossed Tolkien’s mind. The engine of both stories is a ring that characters in the drama desire and are willing to kill for, that bestows it’s wearer with magical powers, but also pushes them into a megalomania that corrupts them. Tolkien’s claim is rather like me coming out with a poem called “I like this ring, but it makes me do the bad thing”, and when confronted with my thievery saying “Tolkien? Never heard of the guy, my muse was a 4th century Norseman called Althruf". And not to labour the point, but it is quite wrong to suggest that comparisons are generally considered lazy by academics; which 'academics' do you have in mind? The biggest gun on the wikipedia 'influences'page suggesting this is one David Harvey, a man of surely no literary relevance, and whose contribution has been to write an out of print book for Tolkien fans.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 ( talk) 9 and 10 July 2010
And Davemon was not saying that academics regard all comparisons as lazy, simply this facile uncritical assumption that LotR and RdN look at all similar. Close examination shows that they differ in conception on nearly every point. Shippey (The Road to Middle-earth) has a good discussion of Tolkien's attitude toward Wagner, and Carpenter's Biography notes that he conceived this documented antipathy as a young man even before reaching university. Certainly Tolkien was "influenced" by Wagner, but only in the sense that he felt he could do a far better and more responsible job of forging new tales from the old myths — which, pace your analogy above, he was certainly familiar with from the ancient sources, even in the original languages (unlike Wagner).
Moreover, Wagner's treatment of the legends is hardly a mere "dramatisation of Norse myth" — his version of the stories already deviates significantly from the Eddic version and the Niebelungenlied; and he was indeed, even in Das Rheingold, influenced by Nietzsche. Rheingold was in fact conceived after he started on the later story, to lay the groundwork for showing how Alberich and Wotan failed at becoming Supermen where Siegfried succeeded. The only significant element common to both stories is the broken sword inherited by the hero; but even here Tolkien is careful to highlight the difference: Andúril is powerful precisely because it comes from God-fearing ancestors and is reforged by God-fearing elves. Nothung, by contrast, defeats divine authority through the innate strength of the Superman — a concept that devout Catholics like Tolkien would despise.
As for the Ring itself, Wagner's treatment owes much to the story of the sword Tyrfing: cursed by its maker when it was stolen, and bringing misfortune on all who possess it afterward. Tolkien's Ring was not cursed, it was evil and its evil infected any who made use of it. It's a far more Christian concept. Curiously, the legend of Tyrfing also shows up in Tolkien, transformed into the story of Túrin's sword Gurthang: prima facie evidence that Tolkien was getting these concepts from the sources, not from Wagner.
Don't get me wrong: I like Wagner, though the philosophical passages tend to bog down. But his operas are not universally appealing, and it is on record that Tolkien did not particularly like them — and justifiably bristled at the notion that his book in any sense derives from them.
Finally, it is the fate of most books, even good ones, especially academic one, to go out of print. That doesn't mean ipso facto that they have nothing of value to say — an argument bordering on ad hominem.
-- Elphion ( talk) 18:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
As Davemon says, a number of Tolkien experts have indeed "covered the issue", but as far as I recall the upshot is that there was very little to cover, and the verdict is that while Tolkien had certainly seen performances of RdN, there is next to nothing to say in terms of detectable influence beyond what Tolkien himself had to say, "both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases". Imo, J._R._R._Tolkien's_influences#Wagnerian_influences severely and irresponsibly overstates things, apparently based not on actual literature by Tolkien experts but by some online journalism at newyorker.com.
It seems that the best discussion of the question, Tom Shippey's, is mostly delegated to a footnote, with the article airily claiming that "Shippey basically agrees with Haymes's position". This is bizarre. Shippey is among the most respected Tolkien experts, while Haymes is apparently some guy people have googled at some point (but the links to his articles are now partially dead). Shippey is aware that "Tolkien may have overstated the lack of influence", but he is also aware that the parallels are not a case of Wagner-to-Tolkien influence but one of much deeper connections in a century of philological study of the Eddaic stories accessible to both Tolkien and Wagner. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Just removed description of LOTR film trilogy by Jackson as one the greatest films, ever. The sources cited were not "film authoriative." The paragraph already describes success and critical acclaim. The oldest film was released 10 years ago. This encyclopedia doesn't exist to validates peoples' enthusiasms. My edit reflects this. I'll be vigilant w/ this. I enjoyed the films immensely, but that doesn't empower me, or anyone else to make sweeping, barely supported claims. Tapered ( talk) 01:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
"The title of the novel refers to the story's main antagonist, the Dark Lord Sauron, who had in an earlier age created the One Ring to rule the other Rings of Power as the ultimate weapon in his campaign to conquer and rule all of Middle-earth." => Is that really true, i.e. the only interpretation of the title? If I remember correctly there is a passage in the book which explains exactly this as well. However, there are more interpretations possible: One could say: The one who wears the ring is the Lord of the Rings as he has the most powerful of all the rings and he is able to control it (at least to a certain degree, but still...). So one could argue that Frodo is the Lord of the Rings as well or even Gollum. And what about the ring itself? It has some kind of own will - so couldn't one argue that even though Sauron made the ring it is still a thing on its own? I just think that the quote from the article is unecessary as it tries to answer a very delicate question: Who is the Lord of the Rings? Maybe the answer is that there are several answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.44.196.146 ( talk) 13:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Reference 25 is misattributed. The author's name is "Joseph Ripp." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.207.85.50 ( talk) 16:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Is it time to semi-protect this article for a while? Looking back over the past month or so, perhaps a total of three or four revisions have not been either vandalism or reversions of vandalism. Cactus Wren ( talk) 21:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I know this is a former featured article, but perhaps we could shoot for GA first. Is there anything that needs to be done to meet that criteria? I know the dead links need to be fixed. -- Glimmer721 talk 01:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
(outdent) It might be an idea to work up a revised version in a sandbox, rather than 'live' if you're not sure of yourself. That way you get time to sleep on the result and get comment from others before committing to it! Remember that the lead needs to summarise the whole article, so you can do worse than following the structure of the article. I'd suggest something like
You might find some of those paras can be combined. Six paras is too many, really. There are other ways of ordering them too - Publication history could go straight after Concept and creation, for example. Having said all of that, it might be wise to ensure that the rest of the article is up to standard before you spend too much time on the lead. 4u1e ( talk) 21:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
I was looking through and found nothing again Leonard Nimoy's song 'Bilbo Baggins'. Should this not be included as it refers explicitly to a main character whereas some of the music included is only inspired. Zunraa ( talk) 20:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Is there any mention in the article about The Lord of the Rings being banned because it's " santanic"? Listed at ALA and Yahoo. I'm not sure if it ever made the top 100 list, though. Where should it be in the article? Under "Reception"? Glimmer721 talk 22:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm surprised the article makes no reference to its influence (in it's Legacy section) on the 'Harry Potter' series - so many sub-plots in the Potter series seem to be inspired by this book. Off the top of my head, I can recount the 'Undead Army' and the incident where Potter and Dumbledore cross the lake with dead beings trying to pull them in - both of these appear in Lord of the Rings. Anyone has views on whether or not we should add that? wildT ( talk) 19:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
The claim in the opening paragraphs is not supported by the source. I'll leave it in for now for others to check if they agree and remove it later in the week if there are no objections. Carl Sixsmith ( talk) 14:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that the Lord of the Rings should have a link to the category: Fantasy Novel Trilogies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fantasy_novel_trilogies). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.1.112 ( talk) 22:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Arwen is not a major character in the Lord of the Rings. She has a none speaking role at the feast before the council of Elrond, she has a very small appearance at the end of the book, and she appears in the appendixes, this is not indicative of a major role. GimliDotNet ( talk) 18:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
In the second paragraph the article says "The title of the novel refers to the story's main antagonist, the Dark Lord Sauron." I've always taken the title to refer to the One Ring itself, being the Lord of all the other rings (one ring to rule them all). And considering that the story revolves around the Ring to a much greater extent than it revolves around Sauron, I think this is the more likely meaning. And then at the end Frodo is writing The Lord of the Rings to help himself come to terms with himself after losing the influence of the Ring - not the influence of Sauron (Sauron and the will of the Ring are technically separate forces). Any thoughts? Canine virtuoso ( talk) 15:27, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I put this at A-class for the Middle-earth WikiProject, and B-class for the others. People are welcome to do a GA nomination if they wish. I think the better approach is to work on the issues raised at the Featured Article Review and then resubmit it for FA in a month or so, but only if the work has been done. Carcharoth ( talk) 08:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi folks, just to inform those who are interested in editing, reference #22 returns HTTP 404.
Öncel Acar ( talk) 02:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the synopsis, I was wondering if it should be rewritten to show the events happening as they did in the books. For example, you might move the opening paragraph lower down (since this information isn't revealed right away). Mario777Zelda ( talk) 02:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
The article makes a cursory mention of one article that criticized the movies as "dumbing down" Tolkien and creating a barrier to Tolkien studies. This is a really myopic representation of the field of Tolkien studies, which is expanding rapidly and contributing to the transformation of academia's understanding of LotR. See the Tolkien Studies journal, for one: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/tolkien_studies/toc/tks1.1.html
If someone who has the time and inclination to research Tolkien Studies could do some more work on this, it would be much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spencimusprime ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Please stop reverting the addition of "(often abbreviated LotR)". If you doubt the validity of the claim, feel free to discuss it here, but I think you'll have a hard time arguing against 3,000,000 Google hits for " lord of the rings +lotr", the existence of an Lotr redirect since 2004, the consistent use of the abbreviation on this discussion page, and its frequent use on fan sites and in academic literature. DES ( talk) 09:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This article (I think) should not be in Category:Trilogies. According to the article on Trilogy, it is not a trilogy, though it is often referred to as such. Does being "often referred to as such" warrant it being in Category:Trilogies? I don't think so. So, if you approve, I'll remove it from that category. Darth Newdar ( talk) 14:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Removed misinformation about Nightwish:
The Finnish symphonic power metal group Nightwish take much inspiration for their music from Tolkien's works, including the entire Wishmaster album, and many of their songs on later albums, including the cover of Gary Moore's "Over The Hills And Far Away".
Not a single word of truth. Wishmaster is not a concept album, and features only one song at least to mention a Tolkien's character. It is not even Tolkien-themed, as there are references to Dragonlance series, and other fantasy fiction. Over the Hills and Far Away is a song about a man tried for a roberry he didn't commit. It has no reference to Tolkien themes. Of all Nightwish songs, hardly two or three are Tolkien-inspired.-- Garret Beaumain ( talk) 21:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't imagine that this is particularly notable, but there were at least two British publishing houses for 8-bit computer programs that took their names (possibly indirectly) from LotR: the games publisher M.C. Lothlorien and the Amstrad publisher Arnor. Loganberry ( Talk) 01:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
In czech LOTR means rogue / scoundrel / villain / varlet ... In czech FOTR means gaffer or pops. It originated from german Vater and sometimes it's rude to say it. You can be sure people noticed it. It might be enough just to let it here. Because it might be interesting trivia for some. 86.61.232.26 ( talk) 17:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I take issue with the use of the word "sentient" in the introduction. When describing science fiction and fantasy, people often use the word "sentient" when what they actually mean is "sapient." Sentience refers to the ability to perceive, while sapience refers to human-like, advanced intelligence. Should the word be changed in the introduction, or should it be left alone considering its usual usage as a misnomer in literary parlance? I vote for changing it. -- n-k, 23:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, sentient is the wrong word. But this whole sentence is pretty bad. The structure is awful. And are not Ents and Trolls also humanoid? Are Balrogs "creatures"? Can we rewrite this in such a way that it doesn't end up being such a catalog, but reflects rather that many of the non-human animals of Middle-earth are capable of rational speech? Elphion ( talk) 02:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This synopsis, and especially its opening lines, follow the story of Peter Jackson's film, not JRR Tolien's trilogy. FOTR does not begin with scenes of Sauron forging the ring, nor with the story of Izildur, but with Bilbo's birthday... There's a problem there, I think. I will not edit for now - what do the others think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.143.100.253 ( talk) 10:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
-- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 01:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)The story takes place in the context of historical events in Middle-earth. In those histories, prior to the start of the novel and not known to the main characters, Sauron forges the Ruling Ring of Power in Mordor.
In this article, the Nazgûl are consistently referred to as the Ringwraiths. Is this correct? I would of thought Nazgûl is the correct title for them. Darth Newdar (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Several of the current references are to a PDF from the Web (actually from the Web Archive) with no provenance, not even an author:
I'm not judging the information therein, but it would be nice to replace this with something more authoritative.
Elphion (
talk) 06:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's encyclopedic to be introducing information from Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit or the Silmarillion into the description of the Lord of the Rings. I think the purpose of the Synopisis and Character summary is to cover the information given in the published work, rather than present an intertextual overview of various draft pieces and marginalia. Perhaps a separate section on what was edited out of LoTR for space reasons which was eventually published in UT would be good. Or am I being over-zealous? -- Davémon ( talk) 21:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Several other novels of this size on Wikipedia have not only a major character list, but a minor character list. Could we get one? It's much easier to find a random character if they have a name on the main page. I'm not talking about links to their own personal pages, but just a list of some of the more important minor characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.96.104.70 ( talk) 21:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(I'm surprised that no one has noticed yet, but...)
This article is labelled as being written in British English, yet it is written in American English.
The "Lord of the Rings" originated in Britain and therefore bears strong cultural ties to the country. It is even exemplified as such under the Wikipedia Manual of Style ( See WP:BrE ) as "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the English of that nation."
On these grounds I'm going to attempt to rectify the spelling variations within the article to British English standards. ( When I have time, that is.)
This is also my first post/attempt at editing on Wikipedia so if I mess up, sorry in advance. Gilly of III ( talk) 15:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the Oxford English Dictionary specify -ize as the correct British spelling. Strange but true. -- Spanglej ( talk) 21:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Wow. I wasn't aware of the whole "Oxford English" spelling situation, sorry about that. I guess I got a little edit-happy. Next time I edit I'll wait for a reply in the discussion page first. Sorry guys. I guess on the bright-side, I learnt something new today :D. Gilly of III ( talk) 03:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Considering this article is meant to be written in Oxford English, shouldn't the word be "mass-commercialization" rather than "mass-commercialisation"? I won't edit anything without any feedback, though. (I've embarrassed myself enough as it is. :p ) "Mass-commercialisation" is used under Reception, and the word "Industrialision" is used under the Influences section. Regards, Gilly of III ( talk) 08:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This might seem a little convoluted/unnecessary, but, under the section Impact on Popular Culture the word "authorised" is used within quotation marks without specifically mentioning where it is quoted from. And even if it is quoted from a reputable source, it would seem unnecessary to include two forms of the word "authorised" within the same article without any apparent need. Without citation, and unless it forms part of a more substantial quote, I suggest the quotation marks be removed and the spelling be adjusted. (Using the word authorised without quotation is not plagiarism). I think I have confused myself. Anyway, sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, but I actually like people correcting me, so feel free to if you want. Oh, and thanks for the feedback, Thu. Regards, Gilly of III ( talk) 08:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Every time I read the book or see the films there seems a glaring hole in the LoTR plot. Gandalf is imprisoned on the tower of Isengard by Saruman and eventually escapes via a giant eagle. Later the council meet and decide that the ring must be destroyed, Frodo will take it to Mordor and a fellowship will help him. At the end the eagles come to rescue Frodo and bring him off the collapsing Mount Doom. So why is it that the Council don't decide at the beginning to send Frodo and Sam (or others) by eagle to Mount Doom (a matter of hours, it would seem) and have done? Why the long and dangerous hoik by foot when quick, personal and quasi magical creatures await?
What d'you think? (Yes, with that plot it would be a very short and much duller book). -- Spanglej ( talk) 21:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a newbie, and have never made a Wikipedia comment, but I thought this was worthy of comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.219.153.78 ( talk) 14:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
This page seems to return "cite error" when accessed. Im not sure as to why this might be happening - maybe a <ref> tag has been opened but not closed properly but I am notsure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawkeye33 ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
This article, overall, appears to be well-written, well-referenced, and comprehensive. What is keeping it from regaining Featured Article status? Or, to put it another way, if it was nominated for FA status, why would it fail? I don't think that it needs much work, and could perhaps be a FA by the end of the year. Mario777Zelda ( talk) 15:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
In the section Further reading is the title: David Day, "The World Tolkien: The Mythological Sources of The Lord of the Rings" (2004). Is this correct? Is it related to Tolkien's Ring? Wiki-uk ( talk) 15:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a picture of what appears to be a mismatched set of the LoTR books? It doesn't seem to add anything to the article. Nave.notnilc ( talk) 22:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to reduce the 'Music' subsection of the 'Legacy' section to a single paragraph and merge it into the following 'Impact on popular culture' subsection, as a more detailed cataloguing of this information is already available on the 'Works inspired by...' page. Some of the other minor details in the Legacy section I think are unnecessary also, for the same reason. I will wait a few days for comment before I proceed with this. Genedecanter ( talk) 10:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Davémon suggested above that some work should be done on the synopsis to move the article back toward FA status, and I agree. I was wondering what you all though of splitting it into three sub-sections, one for each volume of the novel? It could be a way to make it more visually appealing. – The Fiddly Leprechaun · Catch Me! 23:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Lately 82.14.7.18 has been fighting AVBOT to change "orc" to "Uruk-hai" in reference to the party that kidnap Merry and Pippin. AVBOT is mistaken: this is a good faith edit. However, I think the previous text is better. In the first place, the party was not composed only of Uruk-hai -- there were lesser breeds along as well. Secondly, 82.14.7.18 argues that the Uruk-hai are not orcs at all, but this clearly is not what Tolkien intended, as our own article Uruk-hai points out. "Orcs" says all that is really necessary in the scope of a synopsis, and it is not incorrect. -- Elphion ( talk) 04:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I just made this edit because I felt a distinction was needed between the two races as they are after all, different races. Although orcs where used in the creation of Uruk-hai they are not the same race as orcs. Uruk-hai are a hybreed of men and orcs and can differ from them in several ways, and although orcs do later join the Uruk-hai after the abduction of Merry and Pippin, it was primarily the Uruk-hai that carried out the capture discussed in the synopsis. I feel this distinction should be made between the two because Tolkien puts emphasis on their differences himself to emphasis the terror of the Uruk-hai compared to mere Orcs. Saying Uruk-hai are Orcs is like saying lions and the domesticated cat are the same thing. Sure one may have descended from the other but they are not the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinity3Sixty ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
In the cinematic movie of The Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship of The Ring, it begins with Suaron (wielding the one ring)fighting off the crusade on him. Since Suaron has the one ring on his finger shouldn't he be invisible, as in all the other times the ring is worn by others?
This may have already been dealt with, but it seems odd to me that under influences there is no mention of Wagner's Ring cycle. I appreciate that there are many ring myths, but the cycle was by far the most dominant in Tolkien's time and indeed was widely regarded as one of the greatest ever works of art. Given the huge similarities between the two stories, even Gollum and Alberich are strikingly alike, I find it inconceivable that Tolkein wasn't directly influenced by Wagner's epic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 ( talk) 18:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Had you sat through Das Rheingold back in the 50's (which one should point out has no Nieztchean influence in it at all) and strode out of the theatre only to be handed a summary of a new book called Lord of the Rings, you would have rightly giggled at the suggestion that one of the world’s most famous operas, and the greatest dramatisation of Norse myth, had not crossed Tolkien’s mind. The engine of both stories is a ring that characters in the drama desire and are willing to kill for, that bestows it’s wearer with magical powers, but also pushes them into a megalomania that corrupts them. Tolkien’s claim is rather like me coming out with a poem called “I like this ring, but it makes me do the bad thing”, and when confronted with my thievery saying “Tolkien? Never heard of the guy, my muse was a 4th century Norseman called Althruf". And not to labour the point, but it is quite wrong to suggest that comparisons are generally considered lazy by academics; which 'academics' do you have in mind? The biggest gun on the wikipedia 'influences'page suggesting this is one David Harvey, a man of surely no literary relevance, and whose contribution has been to write an out of print book for Tolkien fans.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 ( talk) 9 and 10 July 2010
And Davemon was not saying that academics regard all comparisons as lazy, simply this facile uncritical assumption that LotR and RdN look at all similar. Close examination shows that they differ in conception on nearly every point. Shippey (The Road to Middle-earth) has a good discussion of Tolkien's attitude toward Wagner, and Carpenter's Biography notes that he conceived this documented antipathy as a young man even before reaching university. Certainly Tolkien was "influenced" by Wagner, but only in the sense that he felt he could do a far better and more responsible job of forging new tales from the old myths — which, pace your analogy above, he was certainly familiar with from the ancient sources, even in the original languages (unlike Wagner).
Moreover, Wagner's treatment of the legends is hardly a mere "dramatisation of Norse myth" — his version of the stories already deviates significantly from the Eddic version and the Niebelungenlied; and he was indeed, even in Das Rheingold, influenced by Nietzsche. Rheingold was in fact conceived after he started on the later story, to lay the groundwork for showing how Alberich and Wotan failed at becoming Supermen where Siegfried succeeded. The only significant element common to both stories is the broken sword inherited by the hero; but even here Tolkien is careful to highlight the difference: Andúril is powerful precisely because it comes from God-fearing ancestors and is reforged by God-fearing elves. Nothung, by contrast, defeats divine authority through the innate strength of the Superman — a concept that devout Catholics like Tolkien would despise.
As for the Ring itself, Wagner's treatment owes much to the story of the sword Tyrfing: cursed by its maker when it was stolen, and bringing misfortune on all who possess it afterward. Tolkien's Ring was not cursed, it was evil and its evil infected any who made use of it. It's a far more Christian concept. Curiously, the legend of Tyrfing also shows up in Tolkien, transformed into the story of Túrin's sword Gurthang: prima facie evidence that Tolkien was getting these concepts from the sources, not from Wagner.
Don't get me wrong: I like Wagner, though the philosophical passages tend to bog down. But his operas are not universally appealing, and it is on record that Tolkien did not particularly like them — and justifiably bristled at the notion that his book in any sense derives from them.
Finally, it is the fate of most books, even good ones, especially academic one, to go out of print. That doesn't mean ipso facto that they have nothing of value to say — an argument bordering on ad hominem.
-- Elphion ( talk) 18:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
As Davemon says, a number of Tolkien experts have indeed "covered the issue", but as far as I recall the upshot is that there was very little to cover, and the verdict is that while Tolkien had certainly seen performances of RdN, there is next to nothing to say in terms of detectable influence beyond what Tolkien himself had to say, "both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases". Imo, J._R._R._Tolkien's_influences#Wagnerian_influences severely and irresponsibly overstates things, apparently based not on actual literature by Tolkien experts but by some online journalism at newyorker.com.
It seems that the best discussion of the question, Tom Shippey's, is mostly delegated to a footnote, with the article airily claiming that "Shippey basically agrees with Haymes's position". This is bizarre. Shippey is among the most respected Tolkien experts, while Haymes is apparently some guy people have googled at some point (but the links to his articles are now partially dead). Shippey is aware that "Tolkien may have overstated the lack of influence", but he is also aware that the parallels are not a case of Wagner-to-Tolkien influence but one of much deeper connections in a century of philological study of the Eddaic stories accessible to both Tolkien and Wagner. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Just removed description of LOTR film trilogy by Jackson as one the greatest films, ever. The sources cited were not "film authoriative." The paragraph already describes success and critical acclaim. The oldest film was released 10 years ago. This encyclopedia doesn't exist to validates peoples' enthusiasms. My edit reflects this. I'll be vigilant w/ this. I enjoyed the films immensely, but that doesn't empower me, or anyone else to make sweeping, barely supported claims. Tapered ( talk) 01:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
"The title of the novel refers to the story's main antagonist, the Dark Lord Sauron, who had in an earlier age created the One Ring to rule the other Rings of Power as the ultimate weapon in his campaign to conquer and rule all of Middle-earth." => Is that really true, i.e. the only interpretation of the title? If I remember correctly there is a passage in the book which explains exactly this as well. However, there are more interpretations possible: One could say: The one who wears the ring is the Lord of the Rings as he has the most powerful of all the rings and he is able to control it (at least to a certain degree, but still...). So one could argue that Frodo is the Lord of the Rings as well or even Gollum. And what about the ring itself? It has some kind of own will - so couldn't one argue that even though Sauron made the ring it is still a thing on its own? I just think that the quote from the article is unecessary as it tries to answer a very delicate question: Who is the Lord of the Rings? Maybe the answer is that there are several answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.44.196.146 ( talk) 13:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Reference 25 is misattributed. The author's name is "Joseph Ripp." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.207.85.50 ( talk) 16:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Is it time to semi-protect this article for a while? Looking back over the past month or so, perhaps a total of three or four revisions have not been either vandalism or reversions of vandalism. Cactus Wren ( talk) 21:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I know this is a former featured article, but perhaps we could shoot for GA first. Is there anything that needs to be done to meet that criteria? I know the dead links need to be fixed. -- Glimmer721 talk 01:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
(outdent) It might be an idea to work up a revised version in a sandbox, rather than 'live' if you're not sure of yourself. That way you get time to sleep on the result and get comment from others before committing to it! Remember that the lead needs to summarise the whole article, so you can do worse than following the structure of the article. I'd suggest something like
You might find some of those paras can be combined. Six paras is too many, really. There are other ways of ordering them too - Publication history could go straight after Concept and creation, for example. Having said all of that, it might be wise to ensure that the rest of the article is up to standard before you spend too much time on the lead. 4u1e ( talk) 21:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
I was looking through and found nothing again Leonard Nimoy's song 'Bilbo Baggins'. Should this not be included as it refers explicitly to a main character whereas some of the music included is only inspired. Zunraa ( talk) 20:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Is there any mention in the article about The Lord of the Rings being banned because it's " santanic"? Listed at ALA and Yahoo. I'm not sure if it ever made the top 100 list, though. Where should it be in the article? Under "Reception"? Glimmer721 talk 22:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm surprised the article makes no reference to its influence (in it's Legacy section) on the 'Harry Potter' series - so many sub-plots in the Potter series seem to be inspired by this book. Off the top of my head, I can recount the 'Undead Army' and the incident where Potter and Dumbledore cross the lake with dead beings trying to pull them in - both of these appear in Lord of the Rings. Anyone has views on whether or not we should add that? wildT ( talk) 19:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
The claim in the opening paragraphs is not supported by the source. I'll leave it in for now for others to check if they agree and remove it later in the week if there are no objections. Carl Sixsmith ( talk) 14:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that the Lord of the Rings should have a link to the category: Fantasy Novel Trilogies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fantasy_novel_trilogies). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.1.112 ( talk) 22:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Arwen is not a major character in the Lord of the Rings. She has a none speaking role at the feast before the council of Elrond, she has a very small appearance at the end of the book, and she appears in the appendixes, this is not indicative of a major role. GimliDotNet ( talk) 18:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
In the second paragraph the article says "The title of the novel refers to the story's main antagonist, the Dark Lord Sauron." I've always taken the title to refer to the One Ring itself, being the Lord of all the other rings (one ring to rule them all). And considering that the story revolves around the Ring to a much greater extent than it revolves around Sauron, I think this is the more likely meaning. And then at the end Frodo is writing The Lord of the Rings to help himself come to terms with himself after losing the influence of the Ring - not the influence of Sauron (Sauron and the will of the Ring are technically separate forces). Any thoughts? Canine virtuoso ( talk) 15:27, 16 February 2012 (UTC)