This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
Quite frankly, this is entirely too much detail for this plan in this article. We really need to remember that this is an overview article and not stuff it full of too much detail. And... the google books link to the page for the 95,000 does not work for me. Besides Cesarani and Longrich who both report only 4700 deportees, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust (p. 232) also says ""Only 4,700 Jews were deported to the Lublin area, all in October 1939. The camp at Nisko remained in eistence until the entire plan was crapped in April 1940." We obviously have a difference between two secondary sources (Cesarani and Longrich) and a tertiary (Columbia) on one side and one tertiary on the other (the 2013 edition of the Holocaust Encyclopedia). I have an earlier edition of the Encyclopedia - since the Google link isn't working for me to verify the information - would it be possible to have the title of the entry it's from? And can we conform the citations to the style already in use in the article - I went to a great deal of effort to standardize the references - it is a bit annoying to have a a new style introduced. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
{{r}}
being a short for <ref name=""/>
. The system remains the same. I did not use any tertiary sources, because verifying the information without weblinks becomes a different ballgame. Please ask about anything you'd like to have clarified. I can also take screenshots of any specific pages from the online editions of these books. Cheers,
Poeticbent
talk 23:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
After the invasion of Poland, the Germans planned to set up a "Jewish reservation" in the Lublin district of the General Government territory governed by Frank. [1] Adolf Eichmann was assigned the task of removing all Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia to this reservation. [2] The first plan to be implemented was to concentrate the Jews around Nisko, [3] and it began in October 1939. [4] Although this "Nisko Plan" initially intended to remove 80,000 Jews, Eichmann managed to send only 4,700 Jews, [5] by March 1940. [6] The Nisko Plan was put on hold in late March 1940, [7] and it was abandoned in April. [8] By mid-October however, the idea of a Jewish reservation was revived by Himmler, [9] due to the influx of Germanic settlers into the Warthegau. [10] Resettlement actions connected to this reservation plan continued until January 1941 under Odilo Globocnik, [11] and included both Jews and Poles. [12] By that time 95,000 Jews were already concentrated in the area; [13] but further ideas of deporting up to 600,000 additional Jews to the Lublin reservation failed because of logistical and political factors. [9]
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)</ref>The first short-range plan concentrated on the expulsion of individual Poles who were placed on the deportation lists because of their particular political or social status or because they possessed lodgings and businesses needed for incoming Baltic Germans. Local Germans who had to fall back on indiscriminately seizing and deporting Jews were in effect admitting that they had not diligently carried out the identification and seizure of Polish activists and intelligentsia and thus were not eager to report the actual number of Jews deported."
Liczba Żydów zamieszkujących Zabłocie, Isep i Sporysz - obecnie dzielnice Żywca - w 1938 roku doszła do dziewięciuset. The number of Jews living in Zabłocie, Isep and Sporysz neighborhoods of Żywiec reached 900 by 1938.
I'm going through trying to tighten the text a little. Is there consensus to go ahead and add the new Lublin section? SarahSV (talk) 21:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi Ealdgyth, I could really use your help here. According to http://auschwitz.org/en/history/resistance/escapes-and-reports/ the total of 928 prisoners attempted to escape from Auschwitz. I have included this total in the article and I wonder if it is significant because the museum does not explain where it came from. Their website says that that number "has been established so far" but without listing (or linking) anything. Here's a quote from the same paragraph: "The escape of 433 prisoners failed - they were captured, and sent to the camp where the majority of them perished, or shot during pursuit." The problem is that numerous sources including Rudolf Hoss himself employ the phrase "shot while attempting to escape" to justify murder. [1] [2] [3] The confirmed number of successful escapes was 196. Perhaps only this information is useful for our purposes. Some postwar stories told about what happened at Auschwitz are likely to be hearsay upon hearsay ... which I got from reading Laurence Rees. Poeticbent talk 16:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Auschwitz Aufzeichnungen eines Häftlings: "... Wir trugen die Leichen dieser unschuldigen Frauen und Kinder zum Aufzug, der sie in den Raum mit dem Öfgen beförderte , und dort stecken sie sie in dei öfen , wo sie verbrannten ohne Zuhilfenahme von Brennmaterial aufgrund des Fetts , das sie haben. Ein Mensch ergab nur etwa ein halbes Okka Asche (600 Gramm), die uns die Deutschen zu zerkleinen zwangen , um sie dann durch ein grobes Sieb zu pressen, und danach holte es ein Auto ab und schüttete es in den Fluss , der in der Nähe vorbeiflisst, und so beseitigen sie alle Spuren". ( von russische Historiker Pavel Polian und IT- Spezialist A. Nikitjaew , Der Spiegel 40/2017) OkkaAscha ( talk) 16:16, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
This is unbelievable the following claim is not in the article:
The slavic people were enemies of the Germans. The USSR fought them.
Also, the Polish people and the German people had long History of wars and conflicts.
The Jewish people was not a threat to the Germans at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.57.205.60 ( talk) 22:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The Jews were expelled from some areas (Spain, Germany) to another areas (Poland, Bulgaria), not expelled from Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 13:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The text doesn't inform about Goldhagen's book and the critics but the boook is listed under Books. Xx236 ( talk) 13:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Here is the source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html We should update the figure of 6 million as fast as possible. -- Avoided ( talk) 14:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Hey guys, I was told I had to get a consensus before I changed the number from "about 6 million" to 5-6 million, I assume I get a consensus here, and should I post sources to back up why I think it should read 5-6 million rather then 6 million or?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShadowHawk555 ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, "[a]ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews died.[389] In 1986 Lucy S. Dawidowicz used the pre-war census figures to estimate 5.934 million.[380] Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) estimate 5.59–5.86 million A 1996 study led by Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to 6.2 million, based on comparing pre- and post-war census records and surviving German documentation on deportations and killings.[389] Martin Gilbert arrived at a minimum of 5.75 million.[392]
It seems the minimum is over 5 million and the maximum is slightly less then 6 million, with one source saying 6.2 million
I think therefore it would be more accurate to say 5-6 million rather then about 6 million, because 5-6 million sets a larger range and Holocaust Martyr's and Heroes remembrance authority also says between 5 and 6 million. I know the death toll can be very controversial especially with neonazi trolls, but I think the edit would provide more clarity especially in the introduction when the 6 million figure is first mentioned, rather then going all the way down to the section about jews to see the range of estimates of the death toll of jewish victims ShadowHawk555 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Here's what I am talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Holocaust&oldid=818859475 (my edit that was by
User talk:Ealdgyth because "(lets keep it simple - infoboxes are meant to be simple)".
What do you think? Personally I support the notion because 1) we already mention all the other categories in the infobox under the victims category, but there's no mention on the number of casulaties 2) we do have to remember that people generally don't read the entire article, and many stop at the infobox, which gives them the false impression that the majority - or even the only- victim of the nazi crimes were jews 3) the number of total victims given in the current version is rather misleading, since if we calculate the total number of victims as listed in this very article - even by the lowest estimation - it will surpass the 17 million mark (this very article lists the number of Slavs murdered by nazis as 10,5 million!
What do you think?
Karl.i.biased (
talk) 01:08, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not fully understand your explanation for the revision of of 00:37, 1 January 2018. Perhaps the paragraph does give undue weight and adds info not included in the article (which is easily remedied by including other info) but it would be helpful to explain your points. The implication that Ribbentrop had a minor role in the Holocaust is contrary to the Nuremberg judgement, (section War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity) wich concluded that "He played an important part in Hitler's “final solution” of the Jewish question." But maybe I have misunderstood Joel Mc ( talk) 18:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
There is a discussion at the Village Pump that may be relevant to this article. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion here. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 21:48, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to remove File:Doctors' trial, Nuremberg, 1946–1947.jpg and replace it with a photo of a victim of the experiments, rather than the rather dry photo of the defendants. I looked around and found the photo to the right, but it's not very clear and I don't believe the victim is Jewish. Anyone have any better options? I know there are a few photos around of some of the Dachau experiments. There's also one of the Roma children from Auschwitz, but I do not have access to a good quality reproduction of it. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
The Holocaust started on 16th August 1941, when Himmler gave permission to the death squads to start killing Jewish children. scope_creep ( talk) 18:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Ealdgyth, re: this, they don't use that definition. Their definition includes the Jews, Roma, and Aktion T4 victims: "the systematic, state-sponsored murder of entire groups determined by heredity. This applied to Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped" (p. 52).
I'm looking for mainstream academic historians who actually use the broadest definition. If none do, we ought to rewrite that sentence ("other groups were persecuted"). If they do, we should name them in a footnote. SarahSV (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps it's a minor edit proposal, but the sentence that lists the non-Jewish victims seems to be ordered randomly (?), which may skew the perception of a casual reader: "[...] Roma and "incurably sick", as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war."
I think it would be prudent to order them by the number of casualties: "ethnic Poles and other Slavs (most notably Ukrainians and Belorusians), Soviet prisoners of war, as well as political opponents, the Roma, "incurably sick", Freemasons, homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses."
As you can see, I also added Freemasons and non-Polish Slavs, which all had significantly more victims than, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses or homosexuals.
Pikulis ( talk) 22:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
This article contains numerous cases of phrasings and terms regarding people with disabilities that are obsolete and for many people pejorative. The expressions where "the" is put in front of such labels are also not recommended.
Suggested changes:
In the list "involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[6] as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war.[7],
add "people with disabilities".
Change all instances of [x] to:
- physically and intellectually disabled people > people with physical and intellectual disabilities
- disabled and mentally ill > people with physical and mental disabilities
- disabled > people with disabilities (don't forget the "info box")
- the disabled > people with disabilities
- and so on...
Also, I'm skeptical to "intellectual" and "mental". These words are not synonyms.
/2018-02-20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.34.3 ( talk) 21:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
When we talk about people with disabilities being targeted, we're referring to what the Nazis called the "incurably sick" or "genetically diseased" (Erbkranke), and that's already in the lead, so it would make no sense to add "people with disabilities". There is no contemporary term. SarahSV (talk) 20:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
"Oh, I missed "incurably sick". To quote what words the Nazis used is good, but it needs clarification." I am not particularly educated in what the Nazis thought to be sickness, but I would assume that they targeted the same categories of people as Aktion T4 (1939-1941), their program of involuntary euthanasia.
The first to be targeted were "all children under three years of age in whom any of the following 'serious hereditary diseases' were 'suspected': idiocy and Down syndrome (especially when associated with blindness and deafness); microcephaly; hydrocephaly; malformations of all kinds, especially of limbs, head, and spinal column; and paralysis, including spastic conditions".
The program then expanded to include children and teenagers, and some of them were not actually sick. ".various borderline or limited impairments in children of different ages, culminating in the killing of those designated as juvenile delinquents. Jewish children could be placed in the net primarily because they were Jewish; and at one of the institutions, a special department was set up for 'minor Jewish-Aryan half-breeds'. "
Then the program expanded to adults. "In early October, all hospitals, nursing homes, old-age homes and sanatoria were required to report all patients who had been institutionalised for five years or more, who had been committed as "criminally insane", who were of "non-Aryan race" or who had been diagnosed with any on a list of conditions. The conditions included schizophrenia, epilepsy, Huntington's chorea, advanced syphilis, senile dementia, paralysis, encephalitis and "terminal neurological conditions generally". "
Reportedly, some Nazis would like to include people with physical disabilities, who were otherwise functioning within society. The idea was scrapped because a very prominent Nazi had a physical disability of his own: Joseph Goebbels and his deformed right leg. Dimadick ( talk) 15:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
In the very first line of the article, if you hover your mouse over the reference tooltip over the word Sho'ah, it reads that sho'ah is Hebrew for "catastrophe". However, this is false, as "sho'ah" or "שואה" means "destruction". Catastrophe is only a synonym to the actual word. The same goes with "HaSho'ah" meaning "The destruction". — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueRavin ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Was the murder or other minorities like Romas part of TH or not? I think TH refers solely to the plight of Jews, but the lead is not as ambiguous as it could be, since immediately in the second sentence or so it discusses the wider context and plight of other groups. Some could get confused.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:48, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
The Jewish Holocaust was one of the most horrific historical events. Known worldwide as the near-depletion and complete humiliation of Jews in Nazi-Germany, Europe, the Holocaust remains a nightmare and inhumane part of history to all. However, the Holocaust did not only occur in Europe. The holocaust took place all throughout the eastern part of the world were Jews mostly resided- including North Africa. Jews in the 1930s were mainly living in the Arab countries in the middle and near east. Before World War I, Jews in Libya had been subjected to anti-Semitic laws. The discrimination against Jews had been an ongoing stigma but things only worsened during Adolf Hitler’s presidency.
In North Africa, after the occupation of Cyrenaica by the British, Jews began to celebrate what they thought to be their liberation- which was the fraternization with Jewish soldiers. But this only made their circumstances far greater. They were blamed for the economic deterioration, they were beaten and abused, and were overall oppressed and forced to be suppressed under French and German rule. At this time, Italians were directed as allies of the Germans, so, they were also terrorizers of Jews.
Many people assume that the holocaust happened in only Germany because of the place were Nazi leader, Adolf Hitler, was stationed. However, there were concentration camps and labor unions set in place for Jews as well. During the time of the 1930s and early 1940s, Jews were exiled and killed almost worldwide. Even without the physical concentration camps though, Jews were abused and completely cast down upon by everyone around them. Nowhere was safe. One of the worst parts about this today is that there is little to no awareness to these harsh truths. The Holocaust was not just a European affair; it was alive and well in North Africa as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adtardy ( talk • contribs) 12:58, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
This table is more precise than the actual "Figures according to Wolfgang Benz" in "Victims and death toll" -> "Jews":
Country | Estimated Pre-War Jewish population |
Estimated killed |
Percent killed |
---|---|---|---|
Poland | 3,400,000 | 3,000,000 | 88,25% |
Russian SFSR | 3,000,000 | 1,000,000 | 33,3% |
Romania | 757,000 | 287,000 | 38% |
Hungary | 445,000 | 270,000 | 60,7% |
Czechoslovakia | 357,000 | 260,000 | 73% |
Germany | 500,000 | 165,000 | 33% |
Lithuania | 150,000 | 145,000 | 96,7% |
Netherlands | 140,000 | 102,000 | 72,9% |
France | 300,000 | 76,000 | 25,33% |
Latvia | 93,500 | 70,000 | 74,9% |
Austria | 206,000 | 65,000 | 31,5% |
Yugoslavia | 68,500 | 60,000 | 87,6% |
Greece | 70,000 | 58,800 | 84% |
Belgium | 90,000 | 25,000 | 27,8% |
Italy | 46,000 | 7,500 | 16,3% |
Luxembourg | 3,600 | 1,200 | 33,3% |
Estonia | 4,300 | 1,000 | 23% |
Norway | 1,800 | 758 | 42,1% |
Bulgaria | 48,400 | 142 | 0,3% |
Denmark | 7,800 | 116 | 1,49% |
Albania | 200 | 100 | 50% |
Finnland | 2200 | 7 | 0,32% |
Total | 9,689,500 | 5,594,623 | 57,74 |
}} WarburgerII ( talk) 14:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
-- WarburgerII ( talk) 15:35, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Many liberated prisoners died during few days, somtimes beacuse they obtained food. Some women were raped. Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
I think we should move list of "Victims and death toll" to head of article, as is in /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims
Regards, Aleksander — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wronskialek ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
The are two templates Template:The Holocaust sidebar, Template:The Holocaust. Do we really need both of them? The second one lists existing pages rather than important subjects. Holocaust in Hungary and in Greece aren't listed there. Xx236 ( talk) 11:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Please remember to remain civil toward other editors when commenting in talk page discussions. Dekimasu よ! 23:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
The Holocaust →
Holocaust – Per
WP:THE.
Rreagan007 (
talk) 05:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Does this look like a good source for 60% murder rate of homosexuals? CTF83! 07:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
"In my empirical research, I have sifted all extant documents to examine the names and data on all concentration camp prisoners registered as being homosexual.' I found the data for about 1,500 homosexuals (This is a complete survey of the quite incomplete documents). I chose as control groups Jehovah's Witnesses (about 750) and political prisoners (200)."
In the first line of the lead, Currently its collaborators links to Axis Power. That page primarily focuses on military alliances of Germany, rather than collaborators of The Holocaust and doesn't even mention Holocaust once, except for United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. I did not find such an article that lists the different countries' participation in The Holocaust, but these two articles contain lot of relevant info, for starting a new page if need be: Pursuit of Nazi collaborators and Wansee Conference
@ K.e.coffman: Shushugah ( talk) 12:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
The way it is written here is like Serbs or Jews in NDH had a choice either to convert or to die. The reality is that some of them were forced to convert, otherwise they would be killed, some of them were expelled to Serbia or elsewhere, and some of them were killed or taken to the concentration camps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.194.27.158 ( talk) 16:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
Quite frankly, this is entirely too much detail for this plan in this article. We really need to remember that this is an overview article and not stuff it full of too much detail. And... the google books link to the page for the 95,000 does not work for me. Besides Cesarani and Longrich who both report only 4700 deportees, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust (p. 232) also says ""Only 4,700 Jews were deported to the Lublin area, all in October 1939. The camp at Nisko remained in eistence until the entire plan was crapped in April 1940." We obviously have a difference between two secondary sources (Cesarani and Longrich) and a tertiary (Columbia) on one side and one tertiary on the other (the 2013 edition of the Holocaust Encyclopedia). I have an earlier edition of the Encyclopedia - since the Google link isn't working for me to verify the information - would it be possible to have the title of the entry it's from? And can we conform the citations to the style already in use in the article - I went to a great deal of effort to standardize the references - it is a bit annoying to have a a new style introduced. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
{{r}}
being a short for <ref name=""/>
. The system remains the same. I did not use any tertiary sources, because verifying the information without weblinks becomes a different ballgame. Please ask about anything you'd like to have clarified. I can also take screenshots of any specific pages from the online editions of these books. Cheers,
Poeticbent
talk 23:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
After the invasion of Poland, the Germans planned to set up a "Jewish reservation" in the Lublin district of the General Government territory governed by Frank. [1] Adolf Eichmann was assigned the task of removing all Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia to this reservation. [2] The first plan to be implemented was to concentrate the Jews around Nisko, [3] and it began in October 1939. [4] Although this "Nisko Plan" initially intended to remove 80,000 Jews, Eichmann managed to send only 4,700 Jews, [5] by March 1940. [6] The Nisko Plan was put on hold in late March 1940, [7] and it was abandoned in April. [8] By mid-October however, the idea of a Jewish reservation was revived by Himmler, [9] due to the influx of Germanic settlers into the Warthegau. [10] Resettlement actions connected to this reservation plan continued until January 1941 under Odilo Globocnik, [11] and included both Jews and Poles. [12] By that time 95,000 Jews were already concentrated in the area; [13] but further ideas of deporting up to 600,000 additional Jews to the Lublin reservation failed because of logistical and political factors. [9]
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)</ref>The first short-range plan concentrated on the expulsion of individual Poles who were placed on the deportation lists because of their particular political or social status or because they possessed lodgings and businesses needed for incoming Baltic Germans. Local Germans who had to fall back on indiscriminately seizing and deporting Jews were in effect admitting that they had not diligently carried out the identification and seizure of Polish activists and intelligentsia and thus were not eager to report the actual number of Jews deported."
Liczba Żydów zamieszkujących Zabłocie, Isep i Sporysz - obecnie dzielnice Żywca - w 1938 roku doszła do dziewięciuset. The number of Jews living in Zabłocie, Isep and Sporysz neighborhoods of Żywiec reached 900 by 1938.
I'm going through trying to tighten the text a little. Is there consensus to go ahead and add the new Lublin section? SarahSV (talk) 21:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi Ealdgyth, I could really use your help here. According to http://auschwitz.org/en/history/resistance/escapes-and-reports/ the total of 928 prisoners attempted to escape from Auschwitz. I have included this total in the article and I wonder if it is significant because the museum does not explain where it came from. Their website says that that number "has been established so far" but without listing (or linking) anything. Here's a quote from the same paragraph: "The escape of 433 prisoners failed - they were captured, and sent to the camp where the majority of them perished, or shot during pursuit." The problem is that numerous sources including Rudolf Hoss himself employ the phrase "shot while attempting to escape" to justify murder. [1] [2] [3] The confirmed number of successful escapes was 196. Perhaps only this information is useful for our purposes. Some postwar stories told about what happened at Auschwitz are likely to be hearsay upon hearsay ... which I got from reading Laurence Rees. Poeticbent talk 16:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Auschwitz Aufzeichnungen eines Häftlings: "... Wir trugen die Leichen dieser unschuldigen Frauen und Kinder zum Aufzug, der sie in den Raum mit dem Öfgen beförderte , und dort stecken sie sie in dei öfen , wo sie verbrannten ohne Zuhilfenahme von Brennmaterial aufgrund des Fetts , das sie haben. Ein Mensch ergab nur etwa ein halbes Okka Asche (600 Gramm), die uns die Deutschen zu zerkleinen zwangen , um sie dann durch ein grobes Sieb zu pressen, und danach holte es ein Auto ab und schüttete es in den Fluss , der in der Nähe vorbeiflisst, und so beseitigen sie alle Spuren". ( von russische Historiker Pavel Polian und IT- Spezialist A. Nikitjaew , Der Spiegel 40/2017) OkkaAscha ( talk) 16:16, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
This is unbelievable the following claim is not in the article:
The slavic people were enemies of the Germans. The USSR fought them.
Also, the Polish people and the German people had long History of wars and conflicts.
The Jewish people was not a threat to the Germans at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.57.205.60 ( talk) 22:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The Jews were expelled from some areas (Spain, Germany) to another areas (Poland, Bulgaria), not expelled from Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 13:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The text doesn't inform about Goldhagen's book and the critics but the boook is listed under Books. Xx236 ( talk) 13:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Here is the source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html We should update the figure of 6 million as fast as possible. -- Avoided ( talk) 14:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Hey guys, I was told I had to get a consensus before I changed the number from "about 6 million" to 5-6 million, I assume I get a consensus here, and should I post sources to back up why I think it should read 5-6 million rather then 6 million or?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShadowHawk555 ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, "[a]ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews died.[389] In 1986 Lucy S. Dawidowicz used the pre-war census figures to estimate 5.934 million.[380] Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) estimate 5.59–5.86 million A 1996 study led by Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to 6.2 million, based on comparing pre- and post-war census records and surviving German documentation on deportations and killings.[389] Martin Gilbert arrived at a minimum of 5.75 million.[392]
It seems the minimum is over 5 million and the maximum is slightly less then 6 million, with one source saying 6.2 million
I think therefore it would be more accurate to say 5-6 million rather then about 6 million, because 5-6 million sets a larger range and Holocaust Martyr's and Heroes remembrance authority also says between 5 and 6 million. I know the death toll can be very controversial especially with neonazi trolls, but I think the edit would provide more clarity especially in the introduction when the 6 million figure is first mentioned, rather then going all the way down to the section about jews to see the range of estimates of the death toll of jewish victims ShadowHawk555 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Here's what I am talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Holocaust&oldid=818859475 (my edit that was by
User talk:Ealdgyth because "(lets keep it simple - infoboxes are meant to be simple)".
What do you think? Personally I support the notion because 1) we already mention all the other categories in the infobox under the victims category, but there's no mention on the number of casulaties 2) we do have to remember that people generally don't read the entire article, and many stop at the infobox, which gives them the false impression that the majority - or even the only- victim of the nazi crimes were jews 3) the number of total victims given in the current version is rather misleading, since if we calculate the total number of victims as listed in this very article - even by the lowest estimation - it will surpass the 17 million mark (this very article lists the number of Slavs murdered by nazis as 10,5 million!
What do you think?
Karl.i.biased (
talk) 01:08, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not fully understand your explanation for the revision of of 00:37, 1 January 2018. Perhaps the paragraph does give undue weight and adds info not included in the article (which is easily remedied by including other info) but it would be helpful to explain your points. The implication that Ribbentrop had a minor role in the Holocaust is contrary to the Nuremberg judgement, (section War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity) wich concluded that "He played an important part in Hitler's “final solution” of the Jewish question." But maybe I have misunderstood Joel Mc ( talk) 18:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
There is a discussion at the Village Pump that may be relevant to this article. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion here. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 21:48, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to remove File:Doctors' trial, Nuremberg, 1946–1947.jpg and replace it with a photo of a victim of the experiments, rather than the rather dry photo of the defendants. I looked around and found the photo to the right, but it's not very clear and I don't believe the victim is Jewish. Anyone have any better options? I know there are a few photos around of some of the Dachau experiments. There's also one of the Roma children from Auschwitz, but I do not have access to a good quality reproduction of it. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
The Holocaust started on 16th August 1941, when Himmler gave permission to the death squads to start killing Jewish children. scope_creep ( talk) 18:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Ealdgyth, re: this, they don't use that definition. Their definition includes the Jews, Roma, and Aktion T4 victims: "the systematic, state-sponsored murder of entire groups determined by heredity. This applied to Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped" (p. 52).
I'm looking for mainstream academic historians who actually use the broadest definition. If none do, we ought to rewrite that sentence ("other groups were persecuted"). If they do, we should name them in a footnote. SarahSV (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps it's a minor edit proposal, but the sentence that lists the non-Jewish victims seems to be ordered randomly (?), which may skew the perception of a casual reader: "[...] Roma and "incurably sick", as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war."
I think it would be prudent to order them by the number of casualties: "ethnic Poles and other Slavs (most notably Ukrainians and Belorusians), Soviet prisoners of war, as well as political opponents, the Roma, "incurably sick", Freemasons, homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses."
As you can see, I also added Freemasons and non-Polish Slavs, which all had significantly more victims than, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses or homosexuals.
Pikulis ( talk) 22:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
This article contains numerous cases of phrasings and terms regarding people with disabilities that are obsolete and for many people pejorative. The expressions where "the" is put in front of such labels are also not recommended.
Suggested changes:
In the list "involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[6] as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war.[7],
add "people with disabilities".
Change all instances of [x] to:
- physically and intellectually disabled people > people with physical and intellectual disabilities
- disabled and mentally ill > people with physical and mental disabilities
- disabled > people with disabilities (don't forget the "info box")
- the disabled > people with disabilities
- and so on...
Also, I'm skeptical to "intellectual" and "mental". These words are not synonyms.
/2018-02-20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.34.3 ( talk) 21:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
When we talk about people with disabilities being targeted, we're referring to what the Nazis called the "incurably sick" or "genetically diseased" (Erbkranke), and that's already in the lead, so it would make no sense to add "people with disabilities". There is no contemporary term. SarahSV (talk) 20:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
"Oh, I missed "incurably sick". To quote what words the Nazis used is good, but it needs clarification." I am not particularly educated in what the Nazis thought to be sickness, but I would assume that they targeted the same categories of people as Aktion T4 (1939-1941), their program of involuntary euthanasia.
The first to be targeted were "all children under three years of age in whom any of the following 'serious hereditary diseases' were 'suspected': idiocy and Down syndrome (especially when associated with blindness and deafness); microcephaly; hydrocephaly; malformations of all kinds, especially of limbs, head, and spinal column; and paralysis, including spastic conditions".
The program then expanded to include children and teenagers, and some of them were not actually sick. ".various borderline or limited impairments in children of different ages, culminating in the killing of those designated as juvenile delinquents. Jewish children could be placed in the net primarily because they were Jewish; and at one of the institutions, a special department was set up for 'minor Jewish-Aryan half-breeds'. "
Then the program expanded to adults. "In early October, all hospitals, nursing homes, old-age homes and sanatoria were required to report all patients who had been institutionalised for five years or more, who had been committed as "criminally insane", who were of "non-Aryan race" or who had been diagnosed with any on a list of conditions. The conditions included schizophrenia, epilepsy, Huntington's chorea, advanced syphilis, senile dementia, paralysis, encephalitis and "terminal neurological conditions generally". "
Reportedly, some Nazis would like to include people with physical disabilities, who were otherwise functioning within society. The idea was scrapped because a very prominent Nazi had a physical disability of his own: Joseph Goebbels and his deformed right leg. Dimadick ( talk) 15:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
In the very first line of the article, if you hover your mouse over the reference tooltip over the word Sho'ah, it reads that sho'ah is Hebrew for "catastrophe". However, this is false, as "sho'ah" or "שואה" means "destruction". Catastrophe is only a synonym to the actual word. The same goes with "HaSho'ah" meaning "The destruction". — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueRavin ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Was the murder or other minorities like Romas part of TH or not? I think TH refers solely to the plight of Jews, but the lead is not as ambiguous as it could be, since immediately in the second sentence or so it discusses the wider context and plight of other groups. Some could get confused.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:48, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
The Jewish Holocaust was one of the most horrific historical events. Known worldwide as the near-depletion and complete humiliation of Jews in Nazi-Germany, Europe, the Holocaust remains a nightmare and inhumane part of history to all. However, the Holocaust did not only occur in Europe. The holocaust took place all throughout the eastern part of the world were Jews mostly resided- including North Africa. Jews in the 1930s were mainly living in the Arab countries in the middle and near east. Before World War I, Jews in Libya had been subjected to anti-Semitic laws. The discrimination against Jews had been an ongoing stigma but things only worsened during Adolf Hitler’s presidency.
In North Africa, after the occupation of Cyrenaica by the British, Jews began to celebrate what they thought to be their liberation- which was the fraternization with Jewish soldiers. But this only made their circumstances far greater. They were blamed for the economic deterioration, they were beaten and abused, and were overall oppressed and forced to be suppressed under French and German rule. At this time, Italians were directed as allies of the Germans, so, they were also terrorizers of Jews.
Many people assume that the holocaust happened in only Germany because of the place were Nazi leader, Adolf Hitler, was stationed. However, there were concentration camps and labor unions set in place for Jews as well. During the time of the 1930s and early 1940s, Jews were exiled and killed almost worldwide. Even without the physical concentration camps though, Jews were abused and completely cast down upon by everyone around them. Nowhere was safe. One of the worst parts about this today is that there is little to no awareness to these harsh truths. The Holocaust was not just a European affair; it was alive and well in North Africa as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adtardy ( talk • contribs) 12:58, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
This table is more precise than the actual "Figures according to Wolfgang Benz" in "Victims and death toll" -> "Jews":
Country | Estimated Pre-War Jewish population |
Estimated killed |
Percent killed |
---|---|---|---|
Poland | 3,400,000 | 3,000,000 | 88,25% |
Russian SFSR | 3,000,000 | 1,000,000 | 33,3% |
Romania | 757,000 | 287,000 | 38% |
Hungary | 445,000 | 270,000 | 60,7% |
Czechoslovakia | 357,000 | 260,000 | 73% |
Germany | 500,000 | 165,000 | 33% |
Lithuania | 150,000 | 145,000 | 96,7% |
Netherlands | 140,000 | 102,000 | 72,9% |
France | 300,000 | 76,000 | 25,33% |
Latvia | 93,500 | 70,000 | 74,9% |
Austria | 206,000 | 65,000 | 31,5% |
Yugoslavia | 68,500 | 60,000 | 87,6% |
Greece | 70,000 | 58,800 | 84% |
Belgium | 90,000 | 25,000 | 27,8% |
Italy | 46,000 | 7,500 | 16,3% |
Luxembourg | 3,600 | 1,200 | 33,3% |
Estonia | 4,300 | 1,000 | 23% |
Norway | 1,800 | 758 | 42,1% |
Bulgaria | 48,400 | 142 | 0,3% |
Denmark | 7,800 | 116 | 1,49% |
Albania | 200 | 100 | 50% |
Finnland | 2200 | 7 | 0,32% |
Total | 9,689,500 | 5,594,623 | 57,74 |
}} WarburgerII ( talk) 14:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
-- WarburgerII ( talk) 15:35, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Many liberated prisoners died during few days, somtimes beacuse they obtained food. Some women were raped. Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
I think we should move list of "Victims and death toll" to head of article, as is in /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims
Regards, Aleksander — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wronskialek ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
The are two templates Template:The Holocaust sidebar, Template:The Holocaust. Do we really need both of them? The second one lists existing pages rather than important subjects. Holocaust in Hungary and in Greece aren't listed there. Xx236 ( talk) 11:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Please remember to remain civil toward other editors when commenting in talk page discussions. Dekimasu よ! 23:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
The Holocaust →
Holocaust – Per
WP:THE.
Rreagan007 (
talk) 05:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Does this look like a good source for 60% murder rate of homosexuals? CTF83! 07:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
"In my empirical research, I have sifted all extant documents to examine the names and data on all concentration camp prisoners registered as being homosexual.' I found the data for about 1,500 homosexuals (This is a complete survey of the quite incomplete documents). I chose as control groups Jehovah's Witnesses (about 750) and political prisoners (200)."
In the first line of the lead, Currently its collaborators links to Axis Power. That page primarily focuses on military alliances of Germany, rather than collaborators of The Holocaust and doesn't even mention Holocaust once, except for United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. I did not find such an article that lists the different countries' participation in The Holocaust, but these two articles contain lot of relevant info, for starting a new page if need be: Pursuit of Nazi collaborators and Wansee Conference
@ K.e.coffman: Shushugah ( talk) 12:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
The way it is written here is like Serbs or Jews in NDH had a choice either to convert or to die. The reality is that some of them were forced to convert, otherwise they would be killed, some of them were expelled to Serbia or elsewhere, and some of them were killed or taken to the concentration camps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.194.27.158 ( talk) 16:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)