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The Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed on April 17, 1895 in Japan.
The article states "The republic was proclaimed by a group of pro-Qing high officials and members of the local gentry, many of whom fled the island upon Japan's invasion."
At that point in time, Taiwan is known as Taiwan by the Qing imperial dynasty.
1. How is "Táiwān Mínzhǔguó" translated into English as the "Republic of Formosa" or the "Formosa Republic". How does the idea of "Formosa" dawn on the handful of pro-Qing officials?
2. "Pro-Qing" officials? Under Qing rule, there can only be Qing officials. It does not matter whether these people are mainlanders or islanders so long as they serve and assert Qing sovereignty over the island. The corollary of pro-Qing is anti-Qing. Agreed, that there can be still be an anti-Qing movement in Taiwan some 250 years after the fall of the Ming in 1644 (the revolt of the remnants of Ming Chinese in southern China in 1673 was put down by Kangxi).
3. Sun's revolutionary movement in 1894 was still very young. After a failed coup in 1895 Sun was running around in Europe and North America as a fugitive of the Qing government. Could his ideas inspire the "pro-Qing" officials or the anti-Qing movement in Taiwan? If not, what could have inspired the declaration of the "Repunlic of Formosa" by the few? Where and what then are the sources of republicanism and its ideals for a Republic of Formosa? What then is the executive power and authority of the so-called presidents (Tang Ching-sung and Liu Yung-fu)? What are the programs of the president for the republic?
4. In the twilight period of 6 months between April 17, the signing of the Treaty and October 21, 1895, before Japan took effective occupation replacing the Qing government on the island, the gentry were evacuating the island. In an increasingly absence of governing authority, can a "republic" be assumed to have been borned?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.62.27 ( talk • contribs)
Re:
Question 1: I assume the name "Formosa" is used here to avoid misunderstanding with the modern proposals of the establishment of the Republic of Taiwan.
Question 2. "Pro-Qing" in this context means that the Qing officials who were proclaiming the Republic did it mainly as an act of loyalty towards Chinese Empire and the ruling Qing dynasty. They did not really want to create an independent state, and cut themselves off China. It was China, which gave up the island, together with the inhabitants, who were not exactly happy about this.
Question 3. As far as I know there was no cennection between the people who established the Republic and Sun's movement; they also did not appear to have any ideology etc. They mainly did not want to be a part of the Japanese Empire. There was no true executive power of the Presidents: first ran to China with the treasury 10 days after proclamation. The second was a nominal president, but in fact he was a commander of the troops, which had been sent earlier to Taiwan from Yunnan province. He had the powers of commanding officer and commanded his and local troops in fights against the Japanese. When he finally lost the war, he also escaped to China.
Question 4: there were some gentry evacuating, but many stayed. During the period before October 21 there was a pretty heavy fighting on in the island. The "Republic" has never beed formed as a state, excpet for proclamation; but Liu used the title whe commanding his troops. See above.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.219.151.3 ( talk • contribs)
The info box says "Republic of Formosa", the title of the article is "Taiwan Republic", but I've never heard either name before, because every source I've read calls it the "Republic of Taiwan". I think it would make sense to use the more common English name "Republic of Taiwan", but even if we don't we should settle on a single name to use. Readin ( talk) 12:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The English translation is claimed to be a 'rough' translation of the Chinese. 'Rough' is a euphemism for 'inaccurate'. This is an unduly sanitised translation, which gives a false impression of the original. Why not translate it accurately? The first line should start with the words, 'The Japanese robbers', not 'The Japanese'. The intemperate language used by the supporters of the Taiwanese Republic in 1895 was noticed not only by the Japanese, who were routinely referred to as 'dwarves' by Tang Ching-sung and his supporters, but also by Western observers. The vituperative tone of this and other Republican proclamations is a historical fact, and should not be airbrushed out of history simply because it gives a poor impression of the Republic and its adherents.
Djwilms ( talk) 03:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
According to Liu Yung-fu he became head of state after Tang Ching-sung fled, but did not succeed him as president. דב ט. ( talk) 14:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I intend to substantially overhaul this article in the next few weeks. I will be including more information on the administrative organisation of the Republic and its various decrees and acts during its brief existence. I will also try to shed more light on the collusion between various Chinese and Taiwanese statesmen in setting up the Republic. I will try to resolve the issue of Liu Yung-fu's constitutional status after the flight of T'ang Ching-sung. I will also expand the section on the historical significance of the Republic to make it clear that the events of 1895 were not a rehearsal for eventual Taiwanese independence. All non-Chinese contemporary observers - Japanese, British, French and Americans alike - condemned the proclamation of the Republic as a dishonourable maneouvre by the Chinese to evade their obligations under the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
I have removed previous versions of the Declaration of Independence (a Chinese text and an English translation) because they have no independent validity as historical documents. The closest we can come to the text of the original Declaration is the English translation quoted by Davidson, who was in Taipei when it was issued and, as a war correspondent assigned to cover the imminent Japanese invasion, enjoyed access to T'ang Ching-sung. Davidson's version is our only valid source for the contents of this Declaration, and all variant versions presently floating around in Taiwan derive ultimately from Davidson's translation. -- Djwilms ( talk) 01:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I found this article confusing until I realised that the term Ch'ing it uses extensively appears to be an alternate spelling of the more widely used Qing. Qing does appear a few times in the article.
Is it possible to change the article to use Qing for the benefit of non-specialists such as myself? If not can a note be added either explaining that the two terms are equivalent or what the difference is between them please? Kiore ( talk) 05:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Was Mandarin really an official language of the Republic of Formosa? Can we get any sources on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.94.23.150 ( talk) 01:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The place to discuss is here, not reverting on the article itself. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 08:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC) Ping Matt Smith -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 08:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a difference between a state and government. USA is a state, US government is a government. "Republic of Formosa" is the state, "government of Republic of Formosa" would be the government. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 09:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
This republic will pass into history as the most short-lived government that ever existed...it was still called a republic right? I don't see what is the problem here at all. The term republic is well sourced. If you have a problem with NPOV, I suggest you post at WP:NPOVN. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 09:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Although "republic" is not a bad word, it can imply statehood and mislead readers.It is your opinion. I don't think it misleads readers. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 11:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Ah, all right. "Republic" doesn't automatically imply a recognized state. "Polity" is quite vague here (and polity can refer to anything - government, state or empire). I think this is fine, but if you feel it is incorrect, I suggest you post at WP:NPOVN. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 12:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Please participate the discussion further in Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Wording_issue:_Republic_vs_Polity. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 13:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
According to Merriam-Webster, "republic" also means republican government. [4] So it does not necessarily mean the entity is a state. The use of "republic" is okay. This discussion can be ended. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 14:06, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, in the right side table, it is currently being asserting that Taiwan was the polity's territory and that the population of the polity was 2,980,000, without citing any source. I will modify/remove the text if no source are being added after two days. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 10:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Lemongirl942: My this edit was reverted by you. Could you explain which policy your revert was based on? -- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
As a result of the Treaty of Shimonoseki the Formosans became Japanese citizens and therefore subject to the laws of Japan." (source: Special:BookSources/9401509719) Therefore this polity did not have population.is not well thought out - and also disputable. As I said, I will wait for others to comment here. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a related Chinese source which also has English version of the title and the abstract. It is a master’s thesis published by the Department of Law of National Taiwan University, as shown below. [1] Because there is this source that shows the controversy of the statehood of the republic, the phrase "Unrecognized state" in the infobox of the article can be changed to "Unrecognized republic". I could have gone ahead and performed the change, but considering that some editors might be nervous about the change, I leave a notification at there first. I will go ahead after three hours. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 08:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Update: Done. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 12:15, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
References
In 1894, following the First Sino-Japanese War, Qing Empire ceded Taiwan and Penghu to Japan by the Treaty of Shimonoseki. To prevent the governance of Japenese, Taiwan officials and gentry established the Republic of Formosa. After a few months of resistance the Republic still collapsed. Whether the Republic of Formosa a country is controversial, this article tried to use the concept of intertemporal law to observe the international law of that time and examed the statehood of the Republic in modern international law. This article is in the view that the government of Republic of Formosa had independence, because the declaration of independence in accordance with formal independence and the tributary system explaned the words honored the Qing Empire thus meet the requirements of actual independence. But the effectiveness of government of the Republic of Formosa seemed insufficient, it may be in the period of States in Statu nascendi.
Statehood in States in Statu nascendi is not firmly established, in this kind of period recognition can be a powerful evidence of statehood, the non-recognition could even negate it. But according to the declaratory theory the Republic of Formosa was exist in fact, thus the international person of the Republic of Formosa might exist as well, just couldn't proved by other contrys' recognition.
@ Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: You reverted my edits by citing policy WP:NPOV. But as far as I can see, even your revert itself conflicted with WP:NPOV. Since you cited WP:NPOV, please explain how not consistent with WP:NPOV my edits are. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 03:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: It has been two days and I still haven't received your words so far. I hope you will understand that being responseless does not contribute to and can only impede a consensus, which you stressed before. Although you cited policy WP:NPOV as your reason of the revert, it seems to me that you didn't fully understand that policy. Here's why:
As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone." If you thought the phrasing of the content was biased, you should have helped revising its phrasing, not removed it completely, especially when the source of the content is published by an authoritative academy and was written by a known scholar. And if you were not sure about how the content could be revised, you could have discussed with me in this talk page.
-- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:22, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, the article is fine now. I see no problems with the term "unrecognised state". -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Republic of Formosa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 25, 2011 and May 25, 2013. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed on April 17, 1895 in Japan.
The article states "The republic was proclaimed by a group of pro-Qing high officials and members of the local gentry, many of whom fled the island upon Japan's invasion."
At that point in time, Taiwan is known as Taiwan by the Qing imperial dynasty.
1. How is "Táiwān Mínzhǔguó" translated into English as the "Republic of Formosa" or the "Formosa Republic". How does the idea of "Formosa" dawn on the handful of pro-Qing officials?
2. "Pro-Qing" officials? Under Qing rule, there can only be Qing officials. It does not matter whether these people are mainlanders or islanders so long as they serve and assert Qing sovereignty over the island. The corollary of pro-Qing is anti-Qing. Agreed, that there can be still be an anti-Qing movement in Taiwan some 250 years after the fall of the Ming in 1644 (the revolt of the remnants of Ming Chinese in southern China in 1673 was put down by Kangxi).
3. Sun's revolutionary movement in 1894 was still very young. After a failed coup in 1895 Sun was running around in Europe and North America as a fugitive of the Qing government. Could his ideas inspire the "pro-Qing" officials or the anti-Qing movement in Taiwan? If not, what could have inspired the declaration of the "Repunlic of Formosa" by the few? Where and what then are the sources of republicanism and its ideals for a Republic of Formosa? What then is the executive power and authority of the so-called presidents (Tang Ching-sung and Liu Yung-fu)? What are the programs of the president for the republic?
4. In the twilight period of 6 months between April 17, the signing of the Treaty and October 21, 1895, before Japan took effective occupation replacing the Qing government on the island, the gentry were evacuating the island. In an increasingly absence of governing authority, can a "republic" be assumed to have been borned?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.62.27 ( talk • contribs)
Re:
Question 1: I assume the name "Formosa" is used here to avoid misunderstanding with the modern proposals of the establishment of the Republic of Taiwan.
Question 2. "Pro-Qing" in this context means that the Qing officials who were proclaiming the Republic did it mainly as an act of loyalty towards Chinese Empire and the ruling Qing dynasty. They did not really want to create an independent state, and cut themselves off China. It was China, which gave up the island, together with the inhabitants, who were not exactly happy about this.
Question 3. As far as I know there was no cennection between the people who established the Republic and Sun's movement; they also did not appear to have any ideology etc. They mainly did not want to be a part of the Japanese Empire. There was no true executive power of the Presidents: first ran to China with the treasury 10 days after proclamation. The second was a nominal president, but in fact he was a commander of the troops, which had been sent earlier to Taiwan from Yunnan province. He had the powers of commanding officer and commanded his and local troops in fights against the Japanese. When he finally lost the war, he also escaped to China.
Question 4: there were some gentry evacuating, but many stayed. During the period before October 21 there was a pretty heavy fighting on in the island. The "Republic" has never beed formed as a state, excpet for proclamation; but Liu used the title whe commanding his troops. See above.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.219.151.3 ( talk • contribs)
The info box says "Republic of Formosa", the title of the article is "Taiwan Republic", but I've never heard either name before, because every source I've read calls it the "Republic of Taiwan". I think it would make sense to use the more common English name "Republic of Taiwan", but even if we don't we should settle on a single name to use. Readin ( talk) 12:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The English translation is claimed to be a 'rough' translation of the Chinese. 'Rough' is a euphemism for 'inaccurate'. This is an unduly sanitised translation, which gives a false impression of the original. Why not translate it accurately? The first line should start with the words, 'The Japanese robbers', not 'The Japanese'. The intemperate language used by the supporters of the Taiwanese Republic in 1895 was noticed not only by the Japanese, who were routinely referred to as 'dwarves' by Tang Ching-sung and his supporters, but also by Western observers. The vituperative tone of this and other Republican proclamations is a historical fact, and should not be airbrushed out of history simply because it gives a poor impression of the Republic and its adherents.
Djwilms ( talk) 03:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
According to Liu Yung-fu he became head of state after Tang Ching-sung fled, but did not succeed him as president. דב ט. ( talk) 14:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I intend to substantially overhaul this article in the next few weeks. I will be including more information on the administrative organisation of the Republic and its various decrees and acts during its brief existence. I will also try to shed more light on the collusion between various Chinese and Taiwanese statesmen in setting up the Republic. I will try to resolve the issue of Liu Yung-fu's constitutional status after the flight of T'ang Ching-sung. I will also expand the section on the historical significance of the Republic to make it clear that the events of 1895 were not a rehearsal for eventual Taiwanese independence. All non-Chinese contemporary observers - Japanese, British, French and Americans alike - condemned the proclamation of the Republic as a dishonourable maneouvre by the Chinese to evade their obligations under the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
I have removed previous versions of the Declaration of Independence (a Chinese text and an English translation) because they have no independent validity as historical documents. The closest we can come to the text of the original Declaration is the English translation quoted by Davidson, who was in Taipei when it was issued and, as a war correspondent assigned to cover the imminent Japanese invasion, enjoyed access to T'ang Ching-sung. Davidson's version is our only valid source for the contents of this Declaration, and all variant versions presently floating around in Taiwan derive ultimately from Davidson's translation. -- Djwilms ( talk) 01:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I found this article confusing until I realised that the term Ch'ing it uses extensively appears to be an alternate spelling of the more widely used Qing. Qing does appear a few times in the article.
Is it possible to change the article to use Qing for the benefit of non-specialists such as myself? If not can a note be added either explaining that the two terms are equivalent or what the difference is between them please? Kiore ( talk) 05:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Was Mandarin really an official language of the Republic of Formosa? Can we get any sources on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.94.23.150 ( talk) 01:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The place to discuss is here, not reverting on the article itself. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 08:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC) Ping Matt Smith -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 08:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a difference between a state and government. USA is a state, US government is a government. "Republic of Formosa" is the state, "government of Republic of Formosa" would be the government. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 09:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
This republic will pass into history as the most short-lived government that ever existed...it was still called a republic right? I don't see what is the problem here at all. The term republic is well sourced. If you have a problem with NPOV, I suggest you post at WP:NPOVN. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 09:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Although "republic" is not a bad word, it can imply statehood and mislead readers.It is your opinion. I don't think it misleads readers. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 11:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Ah, all right. "Republic" doesn't automatically imply a recognized state. "Polity" is quite vague here (and polity can refer to anything - government, state or empire). I think this is fine, but if you feel it is incorrect, I suggest you post at WP:NPOVN. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 12:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Please participate the discussion further in Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Wording_issue:_Republic_vs_Polity. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 13:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
According to Merriam-Webster, "republic" also means republican government. [4] So it does not necessarily mean the entity is a state. The use of "republic" is okay. This discussion can be ended. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 14:06, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, in the right side table, it is currently being asserting that Taiwan was the polity's territory and that the population of the polity was 2,980,000, without citing any source. I will modify/remove the text if no source are being added after two days. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 10:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Lemongirl942: My this edit was reverted by you. Could you explain which policy your revert was based on? -- Matt Smith ( talk) 16:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
As a result of the Treaty of Shimonoseki the Formosans became Japanese citizens and therefore subject to the laws of Japan." (source: Special:BookSources/9401509719) Therefore this polity did not have population.is not well thought out - and also disputable. As I said, I will wait for others to comment here. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a related Chinese source which also has English version of the title and the abstract. It is a master’s thesis published by the Department of Law of National Taiwan University, as shown below. [1] Because there is this source that shows the controversy of the statehood of the republic, the phrase "Unrecognized state" in the infobox of the article can be changed to "Unrecognized republic". I could have gone ahead and performed the change, but considering that some editors might be nervous about the change, I leave a notification at there first. I will go ahead after three hours. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 08:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Update: Done. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 12:15, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
References
In 1894, following the First Sino-Japanese War, Qing Empire ceded Taiwan and Penghu to Japan by the Treaty of Shimonoseki. To prevent the governance of Japenese, Taiwan officials and gentry established the Republic of Formosa. After a few months of resistance the Republic still collapsed. Whether the Republic of Formosa a country is controversial, this article tried to use the concept of intertemporal law to observe the international law of that time and examed the statehood of the Republic in modern international law. This article is in the view that the government of Republic of Formosa had independence, because the declaration of independence in accordance with formal independence and the tributary system explaned the words honored the Qing Empire thus meet the requirements of actual independence. But the effectiveness of government of the Republic of Formosa seemed insufficient, it may be in the period of States in Statu nascendi.
Statehood in States in Statu nascendi is not firmly established, in this kind of period recognition can be a powerful evidence of statehood, the non-recognition could even negate it. But according to the declaratory theory the Republic of Formosa was exist in fact, thus the international person of the Republic of Formosa might exist as well, just couldn't proved by other contrys' recognition.
@ Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: You reverted my edits by citing policy WP:NPOV. But as far as I can see, even your revert itself conflicted with WP:NPOV. Since you cited WP:NPOV, please explain how not consistent with WP:NPOV my edits are. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 03:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: It has been two days and I still haven't received your words so far. I hope you will understand that being responseless does not contribute to and can only impede a consensus, which you stressed before. Although you cited policy WP:NPOV as your reason of the revert, it seems to me that you didn't fully understand that policy. Here's why:
As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone." If you thought the phrasing of the content was biased, you should have helped revising its phrasing, not removed it completely, especially when the source of the content is published by an authoritative academy and was written by a known scholar. And if you were not sure about how the content could be revised, you could have discussed with me in this talk page.
-- Matt Smith ( talk) 05:22, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, the article is fine now. I see no problems with the term "unrecognised state". -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)