This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I'm really getting annoyed with the revisionist gatekeepers who are constantly deleting every reference to Wilde's politics and religion. His socialist politics and Christian faith are important aspects of his life and should not be whitewashed by people with an agenda. Please stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 22:22, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources to verify that Wilde was a socialist/anarchist and a Christian. Read up and stop deleting. https://hollowverse.com/oscar-wilde/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 22:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Re-read the above message. All info is sourced. Vandals keep deleting it. It's probably homophobic trolls who don't believe someone can be LGBT and Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
The sources were reliable. There's no excuse for deleting. Even the categories are being being deleted. STOP!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 13:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
He's in the category of LGBT Anglicans, but someone keeps deleting other categories. It's widely sourced throughout the whole article that he was Anglican. And it's known that he was a socialist. Read The Soul of Man Under Socialism. It's an essay by Oscar Wilde himself! His own words aren't a good enough source for you? This is absolutely ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs) `
Again, read The Soul of Man under Socialism by Oscar Wilde himself. A Christian socialist is someone who is both a Christian and a socialist. Period. Just like LGBT Anglican is someone who is both LGBT and Anglican. The two independent things don't change meanings when you put them together. An Irish novelist is someone who is both Irish and a novelist. If he was Australian and a novelist, he'd be an Australian novelist. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. I'll accept a compromise of putting him the the Category:Christian socialists category instead of his specific sect of socialism which is understood to be anarchism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 15:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Please read the source and the whole discussion before offering your contribution. It's already established that he was a socialist and a Christian. Nobody's disputing that. He's already in the Irish socialists category. The conflict was about whether "Christian socialist" means something other than being a Christian and a socialist. It does not. I will consider the status of this conflict resolved as long as the aforementioned compromise has been ratified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 15:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Then would there be any objection to the category Category:Irish Christian socialists? There's no hidden definition that someone could try to make up there. It's a combination of three things every Oscar Wilde scholar knows are true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Also, there should be no objections to Category:Anglican socialists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
This is getting absurd. We all agree Wilde was Anglican, Christian, Socialist, and Irish. The only dispute seems to be whether he was an anarchist or not. I suggest reading his own words instead of relying on what someone said on a Wikipedia page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Next you're going to say he shouldn't be in the Irish playwrights category or the Irish Christians category because even though we all agree he was those things we have to go by some unknown Wikipedia editor's opinion instead of the facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs) `
We'll see if your "straw man" theory is true then. We'll add him to the Irish playwrights and Irish Christians categories and make sure they don't get deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Exactly as I thought. You accused me of a "straw man" argument, but I turned out to be correct. Someone deleted the category Irish Christians and said no consensus. Has anyone here actually read a word Oscar Wilde has written? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
We established that he was an Anglican. How is this not "consensus" Is this person who keeps deleting things saying he's not Irish? This is the worst example of bad Wikipedia editing I've ever seen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Then tell me why it was deleted? No one is saying he's not Irish and no-one is saying he's not Christian, yet Irish Christians was deleted. What is going on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
It's my impression that there's quite a debate among Wilde scholars and LGBT history scholars about whether Wilde could be categorized as gay or bisexual, but the article labels him as the latter. I would not have an issue with it if not for the fact that the article makes no mention of his specific sexuality or the discussion around it; in fact, the word "bisexual" doesn't appear anywhere else in the article. I was surprised not to find a discussion about the specific label here (beyond a somewhat non-conclusive one way back in the first archives page), so maybe we should have it? Beggarsbanquet ( talk) 01:01, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Bastun: Actually, I don't see how adding a well-known fact was particularly 'bold'. I was not using Wikipedia as a source--common knowledge doesn't need a source. That Wilde was Anglo-Irish is a matter of fact, not one for debate--unless you think that the paragraph literally in the lede that states he was born to Anglo-Irish parents is false? If Wilde, born in Ireland to a family of English descent and living and working in England, can't be considered Anglo-Irish, then no one can, which I suspect might be the agenda at play here. I'm absolutely baffled that this seems to be a point of contention for you. I can only conclude that you're totally unfamiliar with Wilde and his life. What evidence do you have that he was not Anglo-Irish? St Judas the Lazarene ( talk) 12:21, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
There are reliable sources that label him bisexual, eg [1] [2] and [3]. I see that not all agree, but that's irrelevant surely as our NPOV policy says that we must show all significant points of view. @ MarnetteD: what do you think? Of course, until it's in the article, we shouldn't have the categories. Doug Weller talk 09:31, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
To this articles watchers. As much as I appreciate Sarony's series of photos of Wilde they come from one specific part of his life. The bio's I've read mention that he took on the look as part of his lectures on aestheticism and that he abandoned it in the years after his return to England. Both before and after the early 1880's his contemporaries would have seen him like this. IMO the pic in the infobox should be more representative of his entire life so I have moved the Sarony one to the section about his tour of America (where it was taken) and restored the one from 1889. If there winds up being a WP:CONSENSUS against this then fine but I would suggest including the 1889 photo in the article somewhere. MarnetteD| Talk 20:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
No, I will not "start an RFC", because this isn't the Donald's article where that tactic has been imposed to delay "controversial" changes happening for 30 or more days. We're talking about the lead image of a biography article, so let's not blow things out of proportion. WP:BRD is absolutely fine for this. We're at the "discuss" stage, it appears, because you don't appear to be standing by your comment above - "If there winds up being a WP:CONSENSUS against this then fine but I would suggest including the 1889 photo in the article somewhere." 2:1 and only three people is a narrow consensus, granted. I would be happy with almost any of the approximately 25 iconic Sarony images, btw, over any of the circa-1889 short-haired ones, so the ratio mentioned is absolutely valid. But let's look at image use on the article:
That would certainly imply, at the very least, a passive consensus that one or other of the Sarony images should be the prime image, no? Then there's policy? We have MOS:LEADIMAGE:
Not getting all of my facts straight, omg - sincere apologies for my mistake! In the absence of a rebuttal to any of the substantive points and with no consensus for restoration of the 1889 image, I'll revert to the Sarony image. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Again - in the absence of a rebuttal and no consensus for restoration of the '89 image, restoring the Sarony image is perfectly reasonable. Especially if you're not going to engage on Talk. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Since prior discussion has resulted in edit-warring and no consensus it seems obvious that the suggestion of an RfC to get more eyes on the situation is called for:
What is the best option for the lead image (See MOS:LEADIMAGE)? Gleeanon409 ( talk) 23:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Journalism. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Gleeanon409, it's been over a week since the last new contribution. There is a clear consensus now of 8:2 in favour of the Sarony image. Can we close this? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:28, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Gleeanon409, MarnetteD, and Bastun: It seems like there was clear consensus here; are we just waiting the full 30 days before this is considered "closed"? I.e. it will close on May 26th? It looks like nobody has commented on this discussion since April 27. Ikjbagl ( talk) 21:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
It's true that Wilde was prosecuted under a law that has since been repealed and that is now regarded as unjust, but the evidence presented at his trial included actions which are illegal under modern laws: sex with minors (statutory rape), and coercing minors to have sex with him (actual rape under any reasonable definition). Some of his victims suffered serious harm, according to the evidence. If tried for these offenses in the 21st century and convicted, he would have been sentenced to a considerably longer imprisonment than two years (though perhaps in more humane conditions). Longitude2 ( talk) 09:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The intro states that Wilde was tried for “consensual homosexual” activity. But I argue that is incorrect and is misleading. He went to court as a prosecutor against the Marquis of Queensberry for the libel of being called a ‘sodomite’ (not a ‘homosexual’). I have therefore changed and corrected this, but my edit was undone with the suggestion I have “an axe to grind”. I have none other than wantng the factual accuracy of wikipedia pages, and I therefore ask that other editor’s apply the wiki principle of assuming good faith. Wilde’s libel trial ended with himself beng arrested, accused and convicted of “gross indecency”. The intro incorrectly implies this was because of his homosexual love for Lord Alfred Douglas. But that I argue is also a retroactive and misleading implication. It instead was a sentence for his actions with young men of a ‘lower station’ to himself whom he used as prostitutes for sodomy. In support of that I provide the following:
“Prior to Wilde's trials, prosecutions for consensual homosexuality in England were about as rare as they were in the United States at the end of the nineteenth century. What offended Victorian society about Wilde's conduct was not so much that it involved sex with other males. What people found offensive was that Wilde had sex with a large number of young male prostitutes. Wilde was not prosecuted because he was the lover of a social equal who happened to be male. Wilde was prosecuted because of his participation in a not very discreet prostitution ring. Had Wilde merely pursued relationships with men of his own age — especially men of his own social class — he never would have found himself in the dock at Old Bailey.” https://famous-trials.com/wilde/327-home Mystichumwipe ( talk) 23:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
for accusing him of sodomywhich is already covered in the main body of the article, but it could be included in the lead as well. Your changes to the first paragraph are a different matter entirely. FDW777 ( talk) 15:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
This page needs to be reformatted and rewritten. The entire article is a biography, when that should be only one section. There should be separate sections for topics such as Lifestyle and Beliefs, Legacy, etc.
2600:8804:88C1:6400:45F5:72DA:EF42:2A8D ( talk) 04:39, 11 January 2021 (UTC)Jefe18
A recent book revisits the evidence from the trial and suggests that Wilde pressurised boys.
Review of the book in the Independent
Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 01:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Revised Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 01:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I boldly made this edit to replace three hatnote links to works discussed in a subsection with in-text wikilinks. But I notice this practice is used in several other places in the article, so I thought I'd bring it up here. Thoughts on whether to continue the status quo vs. replacing hatnotes with in-text links where possible? I'm in favour of the change, because it allows the reader to follow (or hover/preview) the link to work X at the point in their reading where it's first mentioned. It's also just a more compact use of space. But I can see an argument that the hatnote links make it a bit easier to see the overall organization at a glance. Colin M ( talk) 19:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Wile wrote one novel. Yes TPoDG, it is important and still resonates today but I am not sure about the inclusion of the term in the lede or infobox. Now, as I type this I realize that it could be argued that the prose short stories he wrote might have some bearing on this. Hopefully this thread will bring other thought to the discussion. MarnetteD| Talk 23:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
When I checked the page this morning it had been entirely replaced by a large swastika on a red background. After refreshing the page it returned to normal.
There isn't really anything on this page that isn't mentioned there, and it seems like it may have been a spinoff anyway (the references say "see also Ellman", who is not mentioned on The love that dare not speak its name article but is mentioned at Oscar Wilde#Regina v. Wilde). AFreshStart ( talk) 23:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the relevant talk page archives ( 1), ( 2), it seems like the right wording has always been disputed here, and there's no clear agreement. The main argument for "Irish", other than that his place of birth somehow trumps all other facts, seems to be his mother's republican beliefs. But his parents were both Anglo-Irish as the article itself states, and Wilde lived all his adult life and worked entirely in England. There's also precedent for "Anglo-Irish" on several other pages: see Lord Wellington. "Irish" is also given as his nationality in the header, which seems misleading and partisan to me given the historical context. Ficaia ( talk) 20:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
The categories "Bisexual men" and "Bisexual writers" have twice been reverted (by
User:Manticore and
User:IAmChaos) and I am intrigued as to why.
Both editors reverted to "Irish gay writers" so they accept Wilde was homosexual, but he was also married, with 2 sons - and I have seen no suggestion that he was not their natural father, nor that, up to the birth of his second son, he did not love his wife.
He is listed on the American Institute of Bisexuality site
here as being bisexual, along with several other sites. I am not an expert on Wilde, but see that some people try to claim he was heterosexual and then switched to being homosexual, with no overlap, although there is no proof of that. Whether this means he was not bisexual, seems to be a strange argument of nomenclature. We don't appear to have a category for heterosexual writers (which could be seen as discriminatory) so, as it stands, he is only categorized as being gay, whereas his work up to 1886 was before his first homosexual experience (that we know of). What is wrong with the all encompassing description of Bisexual? -
Arjayay (
talk) 10:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Clearly as the Irish Republic did not exist until 1922 this character's nationality had to be from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (distinct from the UK today). This is simply a factual issue.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.7.89 ( talk) 11:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Oscar Wilde has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde to Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde (Extra F in third name is incorrect) Francespc3 ( talk) 20:36, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Done
@ MarnetteD:, @ Francespc3:, the extra f was added by @ Tamara Gardens: in this edit on 14th February 2023, with the edit summary "Changed spelling of name from "O'Flahertie" to "O'Fflahertie" as per Donald Mead (2020) How did Oscar Wilde spell his name? The Wildean, 56, 63-72". DuncanHill ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Oscar Wilde has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish poet and playwright" to "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish writer".
Wilde is also famous for his narrative writing, namely short stories an his only novel "The Picture of Dorian Grey", as it is stated later in the article. Moreover, Wilde also wrote important essays such as "The Soul of Man under Socialism" and "The Decay of Lying". Certainly "writer" better describes the nature of his work. Pepeop96 ( talk) 16:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. Changes to the lead sentence require some level of consensus before implementation.
Actualcpscm (
talk) 16:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Point taken, and I apologise for the inconvenience caused. Meltingpot ( talk) 11:01, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
type "a british author but an irish convict" in Google gives 1st result to this article. ibicdlcod ( talk) 14:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
The lead mentions Wilde's death was 'early' at age 46. I assume the assessment that this was 'early' is a consensus view. However, was this actually young for the time? For some context, the life expectancy in England and Wales for a male born in 1851 was about 40 years. [8]
Perhaps the WP consensus is to judge such matters from our current perspective? If so, Wilde's death was indeed at a notably early age, and the lead is fine as it is. Uncle Alf ( talk) 09:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
"Wilde had a number of favourite haunts in London. These included the Café Royal in Piccadilly (where nowadays at its successor on the same site, the Hotel Café Royal, the Oscar Wilde Lounge serves a traditional afternoon tea),"
This is a piece of embedded advertising and should be deleted. It does not add relevant information about Wilde's life in London at that time. Rpxpx ( talk) 14:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
The third sentence of the lead seems a bit clunky and bloated: "He is best remembered for his epigrams and plays, his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray, and the circumstances of his criminal conviction for gross indecency for consensual homosexual acts in "one of the first celebrity trials",imprisonment, and early death from meningitis at the age of 46." Is there any way that could be trimmed or split? Zagalejo ( talk) 23:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I'm really getting annoyed with the revisionist gatekeepers who are constantly deleting every reference to Wilde's politics and religion. His socialist politics and Christian faith are important aspects of his life and should not be whitewashed by people with an agenda. Please stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 22:22, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources to verify that Wilde was a socialist/anarchist and a Christian. Read up and stop deleting. https://hollowverse.com/oscar-wilde/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 22:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Re-read the above message. All info is sourced. Vandals keep deleting it. It's probably homophobic trolls who don't believe someone can be LGBT and Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
The sources were reliable. There's no excuse for deleting. Even the categories are being being deleted. STOP!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 13:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
He's in the category of LGBT Anglicans, but someone keeps deleting other categories. It's widely sourced throughout the whole article that he was Anglican. And it's known that he was a socialist. Read The Soul of Man Under Socialism. It's an essay by Oscar Wilde himself! His own words aren't a good enough source for you? This is absolutely ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs) `
Again, read The Soul of Man under Socialism by Oscar Wilde himself. A Christian socialist is someone who is both a Christian and a socialist. Period. Just like LGBT Anglican is someone who is both LGBT and Anglican. The two independent things don't change meanings when you put them together. An Irish novelist is someone who is both Irish and a novelist. If he was Australian and a novelist, he'd be an Australian novelist. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. I'll accept a compromise of putting him the the Category:Christian socialists category instead of his specific sect of socialism which is understood to be anarchism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 15:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Please read the source and the whole discussion before offering your contribution. It's already established that he was a socialist and a Christian. Nobody's disputing that. He's already in the Irish socialists category. The conflict was about whether "Christian socialist" means something other than being a Christian and a socialist. It does not. I will consider the status of this conflict resolved as long as the aforementioned compromise has been ratified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk) 15:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Then would there be any objection to the category Category:Irish Christian socialists? There's no hidden definition that someone could try to make up there. It's a combination of three things every Oscar Wilde scholar knows are true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Also, there should be no objections to Category:Anglican socialists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
This is getting absurd. We all agree Wilde was Anglican, Christian, Socialist, and Irish. The only dispute seems to be whether he was an anarchist or not. I suggest reading his own words instead of relying on what someone said on a Wikipedia page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Next you're going to say he shouldn't be in the Irish playwrights category or the Irish Christians category because even though we all agree he was those things we have to go by some unknown Wikipedia editor's opinion instead of the facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs) `
We'll see if your "straw man" theory is true then. We'll add him to the Irish playwrights and Irish Christians categories and make sure they don't get deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Exactly as I thought. You accused me of a "straw man" argument, but I turned out to be correct. Someone deleted the category Irish Christians and said no consensus. Has anyone here actually read a word Oscar Wilde has written? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
We established that he was an Anglican. How is this not "consensus" Is this person who keeps deleting things saying he's not Irish? This is the worst example of bad Wikipedia editing I've ever seen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
Then tell me why it was deleted? No one is saying he's not Irish and no-one is saying he's not Christian, yet Irish Christians was deleted. What is going on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.206.153 ( talk • contribs)
It's my impression that there's quite a debate among Wilde scholars and LGBT history scholars about whether Wilde could be categorized as gay or bisexual, but the article labels him as the latter. I would not have an issue with it if not for the fact that the article makes no mention of his specific sexuality or the discussion around it; in fact, the word "bisexual" doesn't appear anywhere else in the article. I was surprised not to find a discussion about the specific label here (beyond a somewhat non-conclusive one way back in the first archives page), so maybe we should have it? Beggarsbanquet ( talk) 01:01, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Bastun: Actually, I don't see how adding a well-known fact was particularly 'bold'. I was not using Wikipedia as a source--common knowledge doesn't need a source. That Wilde was Anglo-Irish is a matter of fact, not one for debate--unless you think that the paragraph literally in the lede that states he was born to Anglo-Irish parents is false? If Wilde, born in Ireland to a family of English descent and living and working in England, can't be considered Anglo-Irish, then no one can, which I suspect might be the agenda at play here. I'm absolutely baffled that this seems to be a point of contention for you. I can only conclude that you're totally unfamiliar with Wilde and his life. What evidence do you have that he was not Anglo-Irish? St Judas the Lazarene ( talk) 12:21, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
There are reliable sources that label him bisexual, eg [1] [2] and [3]. I see that not all agree, but that's irrelevant surely as our NPOV policy says that we must show all significant points of view. @ MarnetteD: what do you think? Of course, until it's in the article, we shouldn't have the categories. Doug Weller talk 09:31, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
To this articles watchers. As much as I appreciate Sarony's series of photos of Wilde they come from one specific part of his life. The bio's I've read mention that he took on the look as part of his lectures on aestheticism and that he abandoned it in the years after his return to England. Both before and after the early 1880's his contemporaries would have seen him like this. IMO the pic in the infobox should be more representative of his entire life so I have moved the Sarony one to the section about his tour of America (where it was taken) and restored the one from 1889. If there winds up being a WP:CONSENSUS against this then fine but I would suggest including the 1889 photo in the article somewhere. MarnetteD| Talk 20:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
No, I will not "start an RFC", because this isn't the Donald's article where that tactic has been imposed to delay "controversial" changes happening for 30 or more days. We're talking about the lead image of a biography article, so let's not blow things out of proportion. WP:BRD is absolutely fine for this. We're at the "discuss" stage, it appears, because you don't appear to be standing by your comment above - "If there winds up being a WP:CONSENSUS against this then fine but I would suggest including the 1889 photo in the article somewhere." 2:1 and only three people is a narrow consensus, granted. I would be happy with almost any of the approximately 25 iconic Sarony images, btw, over any of the circa-1889 short-haired ones, so the ratio mentioned is absolutely valid. But let's look at image use on the article:
That would certainly imply, at the very least, a passive consensus that one or other of the Sarony images should be the prime image, no? Then there's policy? We have MOS:LEADIMAGE:
Not getting all of my facts straight, omg - sincere apologies for my mistake! In the absence of a rebuttal to any of the substantive points and with no consensus for restoration of the 1889 image, I'll revert to the Sarony image. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Again - in the absence of a rebuttal and no consensus for restoration of the '89 image, restoring the Sarony image is perfectly reasonable. Especially if you're not going to engage on Talk. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Since prior discussion has resulted in edit-warring and no consensus it seems obvious that the suggestion of an RfC to get more eyes on the situation is called for:
What is the best option for the lead image (See MOS:LEADIMAGE)? Gleeanon409 ( talk) 23:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Journalism. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Gleeanon409, it's been over a week since the last new contribution. There is a clear consensus now of 8:2 in favour of the Sarony image. Can we close this? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:28, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Gleeanon409, MarnetteD, and Bastun: It seems like there was clear consensus here; are we just waiting the full 30 days before this is considered "closed"? I.e. it will close on May 26th? It looks like nobody has commented on this discussion since April 27. Ikjbagl ( talk) 21:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
It's true that Wilde was prosecuted under a law that has since been repealed and that is now regarded as unjust, but the evidence presented at his trial included actions which are illegal under modern laws: sex with minors (statutory rape), and coercing minors to have sex with him (actual rape under any reasonable definition). Some of his victims suffered serious harm, according to the evidence. If tried for these offenses in the 21st century and convicted, he would have been sentenced to a considerably longer imprisonment than two years (though perhaps in more humane conditions). Longitude2 ( talk) 09:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The intro states that Wilde was tried for “consensual homosexual” activity. But I argue that is incorrect and is misleading. He went to court as a prosecutor against the Marquis of Queensberry for the libel of being called a ‘sodomite’ (not a ‘homosexual’). I have therefore changed and corrected this, but my edit was undone with the suggestion I have “an axe to grind”. I have none other than wantng the factual accuracy of wikipedia pages, and I therefore ask that other editor’s apply the wiki principle of assuming good faith. Wilde’s libel trial ended with himself beng arrested, accused and convicted of “gross indecency”. The intro incorrectly implies this was because of his homosexual love for Lord Alfred Douglas. But that I argue is also a retroactive and misleading implication. It instead was a sentence for his actions with young men of a ‘lower station’ to himself whom he used as prostitutes for sodomy. In support of that I provide the following:
“Prior to Wilde's trials, prosecutions for consensual homosexuality in England were about as rare as they were in the United States at the end of the nineteenth century. What offended Victorian society about Wilde's conduct was not so much that it involved sex with other males. What people found offensive was that Wilde had sex with a large number of young male prostitutes. Wilde was not prosecuted because he was the lover of a social equal who happened to be male. Wilde was prosecuted because of his participation in a not very discreet prostitution ring. Had Wilde merely pursued relationships with men of his own age — especially men of his own social class — he never would have found himself in the dock at Old Bailey.” https://famous-trials.com/wilde/327-home Mystichumwipe ( talk) 23:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
for accusing him of sodomywhich is already covered in the main body of the article, but it could be included in the lead as well. Your changes to the first paragraph are a different matter entirely. FDW777 ( talk) 15:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
This page needs to be reformatted and rewritten. The entire article is a biography, when that should be only one section. There should be separate sections for topics such as Lifestyle and Beliefs, Legacy, etc.
2600:8804:88C1:6400:45F5:72DA:EF42:2A8D ( talk) 04:39, 11 January 2021 (UTC)Jefe18
A recent book revisits the evidence from the trial and suggests that Wilde pressurised boys.
Review of the book in the Independent
Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 01:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Revised Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 01:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I boldly made this edit to replace three hatnote links to works discussed in a subsection with in-text wikilinks. But I notice this practice is used in several other places in the article, so I thought I'd bring it up here. Thoughts on whether to continue the status quo vs. replacing hatnotes with in-text links where possible? I'm in favour of the change, because it allows the reader to follow (or hover/preview) the link to work X at the point in their reading where it's first mentioned. It's also just a more compact use of space. But I can see an argument that the hatnote links make it a bit easier to see the overall organization at a glance. Colin M ( talk) 19:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Wile wrote one novel. Yes TPoDG, it is important and still resonates today but I am not sure about the inclusion of the term in the lede or infobox. Now, as I type this I realize that it could be argued that the prose short stories he wrote might have some bearing on this. Hopefully this thread will bring other thought to the discussion. MarnetteD| Talk 23:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
When I checked the page this morning it had been entirely replaced by a large swastika on a red background. After refreshing the page it returned to normal.
There isn't really anything on this page that isn't mentioned there, and it seems like it may have been a spinoff anyway (the references say "see also Ellman", who is not mentioned on The love that dare not speak its name article but is mentioned at Oscar Wilde#Regina v. Wilde). AFreshStart ( talk) 23:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the relevant talk page archives ( 1), ( 2), it seems like the right wording has always been disputed here, and there's no clear agreement. The main argument for "Irish", other than that his place of birth somehow trumps all other facts, seems to be his mother's republican beliefs. But his parents were both Anglo-Irish as the article itself states, and Wilde lived all his adult life and worked entirely in England. There's also precedent for "Anglo-Irish" on several other pages: see Lord Wellington. "Irish" is also given as his nationality in the header, which seems misleading and partisan to me given the historical context. Ficaia ( talk) 20:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
The categories "Bisexual men" and "Bisexual writers" have twice been reverted (by
User:Manticore and
User:IAmChaos) and I am intrigued as to why.
Both editors reverted to "Irish gay writers" so they accept Wilde was homosexual, but he was also married, with 2 sons - and I have seen no suggestion that he was not their natural father, nor that, up to the birth of his second son, he did not love his wife.
He is listed on the American Institute of Bisexuality site
here as being bisexual, along with several other sites. I am not an expert on Wilde, but see that some people try to claim he was heterosexual and then switched to being homosexual, with no overlap, although there is no proof of that. Whether this means he was not bisexual, seems to be a strange argument of nomenclature. We don't appear to have a category for heterosexual writers (which could be seen as discriminatory) so, as it stands, he is only categorized as being gay, whereas his work up to 1886 was before his first homosexual experience (that we know of). What is wrong with the all encompassing description of Bisexual? -
Arjayay (
talk) 10:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Clearly as the Irish Republic did not exist until 1922 this character's nationality had to be from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (distinct from the UK today). This is simply a factual issue.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.7.89 ( talk) 11:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Oscar Wilde has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde to Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde (Extra F in third name is incorrect) Francespc3 ( talk) 20:36, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Done
@ MarnetteD:, @ Francespc3:, the extra f was added by @ Tamara Gardens: in this edit on 14th February 2023, with the edit summary "Changed spelling of name from "O'Flahertie" to "O'Fflahertie" as per Donald Mead (2020) How did Oscar Wilde spell his name? The Wildean, 56, 63-72". DuncanHill ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Oscar Wilde has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish poet and playwright" to "Oscar Fingal O'Fflahertie Wills Wilde[note 1] (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish writer".
Wilde is also famous for his narrative writing, namely short stories an his only novel "The Picture of Dorian Grey", as it is stated later in the article. Moreover, Wilde also wrote important essays such as "The Soul of Man under Socialism" and "The Decay of Lying". Certainly "writer" better describes the nature of his work. Pepeop96 ( talk) 16:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. Changes to the lead sentence require some level of consensus before implementation.
Actualcpscm (
talk) 16:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Point taken, and I apologise for the inconvenience caused. Meltingpot ( talk) 11:01, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
type "a british author but an irish convict" in Google gives 1st result to this article. ibicdlcod ( talk) 14:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
The lead mentions Wilde's death was 'early' at age 46. I assume the assessment that this was 'early' is a consensus view. However, was this actually young for the time? For some context, the life expectancy in England and Wales for a male born in 1851 was about 40 years. [8]
Perhaps the WP consensus is to judge such matters from our current perspective? If so, Wilde's death was indeed at a notably early age, and the lead is fine as it is. Uncle Alf ( talk) 09:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
"Wilde had a number of favourite haunts in London. These included the Café Royal in Piccadilly (where nowadays at its successor on the same site, the Hotel Café Royal, the Oscar Wilde Lounge serves a traditional afternoon tea),"
This is a piece of embedded advertising and should be deleted. It does not add relevant information about Wilde's life in London at that time. Rpxpx ( talk) 14:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
The third sentence of the lead seems a bit clunky and bloated: "He is best remembered for his epigrams and plays, his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray, and the circumstances of his criminal conviction for gross indecency for consensual homosexual acts in "one of the first celebrity trials",imprisonment, and early death from meningitis at the age of 46." Is there any way that could be trimmed or split? Zagalejo ( talk) 23:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)