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The following seems very derogatory to France and Britain and Pilsudski:Chancellor Hitler repeatedly suggested a German-Polish alliance against the Soviet Union, but Piłsudski refused, instead preparing his horse-mounted cavalry for suicide charges against the vast Soviet armored divisions.[48][158] Until his death, Piłsudski believed Poland's policy must be to maintain neutral relations with the Germany Empire, while maintaining tenuous -- and illusory -- alliances with the weak French socialist bureaucracies and the isolationist British.[146] Is this really what the source says and if so can the source really be reliable or unbiased ? After all the alliance with Britain and France seemed ineffective rather than an illusion. In 1939 it was real enough to bring France and Britain into the war making the German Polish War a World War even though it didnt save Poland for defeat or give Poland real independence six years later. I don't have any expertise in this field and don't have the source book but it just seems wrong to me. Spinney Hill ( talk) 01:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The answer appears to be in an earlier version which I have re-instated which uses the source Spinney Hill ( talk) 09:52, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Regrettably, the article does not currently meet the FA criteria. I will start by listing the concrete issues:
I also see above that multiple editors have expressed concerns that the article downplays the authoritarian characteristics of his regime. Non-Polish sources describe his regime as a dictatorship, considering this one of the most prominent aspects of his life (notice it is mentioned in the short, one-paragraph summary in Encyclopedia of War). [1] [2] [3] In addition, The Polish Review did an issue dedicated to him in 2011 [2] and there was an interesting article on the subject, published just this year. [4] ( t · c) buidhe 06:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
References
References
Hi buidhe, GizzyCatBella and Piotrus, I anm pinging you because you commented on the above FAR notice. There are still outstanding issues for this article including citation needed tags, the honours section that has an "additional citations needed" banner, a long legacy section with many short paragraphs, and inconsistent formatting in the references section. Are any of you interested in bringing this article back to FA standards, or should this be brought to FAR? Z1720 ( talk) 19:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: Since you are actively editing this article, I want to take a much closer review of the article and conduct a copyedit. I am following WP:BOLD and editing some parts of the article, but I will need to seek clarification on some parts because I have never heard of this person and I don't know the history of this article or its FAC. I hope that you, or another editor, can answer some of my questions below, and I am sorry if they seem silly, ill-informed or pedantic. Please also review the copyedits I make to ensure I didn't accidentally change the meaning of a sentence. Questions are below:
This brings me to WWI. Please ping me when the above are addressed/resolved, and I will take another look. However, I am also very busy in real life so please excuse my delays in responding. Z1720 ( talk) 21:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
I responded to the bullet points above underneath each point, in order to keep the conversation organised and easy to follow, as is done at WP:FAC. I have signed all of the comments that I have added. If I did not add a comment, it means that I think it is resolved. I hope this is OK, and editors are invited to respond under the bullet points below:
This brings me to "Rebuilding Poland". Sorry that I am going slow with this review, I am busy at the moment so don't have time to read through large amounts of the article. Z1720 ( talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your response above Piotrus. Don't worry about the delays, I'm just happy someone is improving the article. More thoughts below:
This brings me to "In government". Z1720 ( talk) 17:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: any progress on the above? Z1720 ( talk) 00:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: I am so sorry that I have not given more comments; real life got busy. Please let me know if I missed any questions/concerns above. Here are some more comments:
I am at the end of the article. I'll do another readthrough once the above are complete. Z1720 ( talk) 02:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Additional comments:
More comments after the above are addressed. Z1720 ( talk) 04:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Note "b" does not make any sense so far as I can see. Can anyone improve it? Spinney Hill ( talk) 08:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
The infobox was too long and contained lists of names that distract from the more important elements in it. Therefore, I have removed/collapsed them [4] ( t · c) buidhe 20:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
It says in this section 31st of May, it doesn't say which year
Should be fixed /info/en/?search=User:EmilePersaud 16:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
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Rokkas Piłsudski is watching this.. StrangePersonality ( talk) 05:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
It says at the top that his name was Pilsudski not Pilsudski but the spellings appear to be exactly the same. What is going on here please?. Is there a mistake which still needs to be corrected? Spinney Hill ( talk) 09:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Three lines below the title and one above the start of the main text (certainly while logged in). No I see no diacritic in the name at either point although there is one over the O in Josef. -an accute accent in the main title and a dot in the first word of text.. Spinney Hill ( talk) 11:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
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Hello,
Requesting info box edit: add his position of Minister of Military Affairs (1928-1935) - because this is pretty important as it allowed him to influence the state until his death. Now it looks at first glance that he played no important role after 1928. Rebelbear ( talk) 11:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template.
Snowmanonahoe (
talk) 12:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Head of State section under Rebuilding Poland contains the following paragraph:
The day after his arrival in Warsaw, he met with old colleagues from his time working with the underground resistance, who addressed him socialist-style as "Comrade" (Towarzysz) and asked for his support for their revolutionary policies. He refused it and answered: "Comrades, I took the red tram of socialism to the stop called Independence, and that's where I got off. You may keep on to the final stop if you wish, but from now on let's address each other as 'Mister' [rather than continue using the socialist term of address, 'Comrade']!" He declined to support any party and did not form any political organization of his own; instead, he advocated creating a coalition government..
I tried to find the source of this quote, but it appears (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it in fact originated from Adolf Nowaczyński, who wrote of Piłsudzki in 1919 that he "got off the party tram at the stop called Independence". I believe a quote closer to the one cited in the Wikpedia article can be found in the monograph White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies, where he cites it as something that Piłsudzki himself "supposedly" said. On the other hand, Piłsudzki biographer Andrzej Garlicki says this quote is "not in [Piłsudzki's] style".
The "red tram" quote is no doubt a compelling representation of Piłsudzki's fascinating and somewhat mysterious relationship with socialism (plus it contributes to the popular conception of the man as a silver-tongued devil), but I think there's simply far too much disagreement about its authenticity for it to be included in the article the way it appears now. I suggest either removing the quote altogether or specifying that it's of dubious validity.
Sources consulted:
Although on November 12 a red banner was hung over the Royal Castle with Pilsudski's permission to calm the revolutionary mood, but after a few weeks, when the wave of important social reforms of the government appointed by the Provisional Head of State Jędrzej Moraczewski swept through the country, the banner was ordered without much publicity to be taken down by Pilsudski's closest associate at the time - Kazimierz Sosnkowski. The red-and-white banner returned to the Castle. Poland as a Republic - the Republic was reborn after 123 years of slavery; link), but it is better to find confirmation in the good RS. Marcelus ( talk) 08:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Grammar error: In the "Legacy" section, "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski's" should be "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski" 81.187.20.112 ( talk) 21:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
“First Marshall” should be changed to “First Marshal” in the short description. 142.167.21.12 ( talk) 15:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis can you give a reasoning for the Lithuanisation of the Zułów estate name? Marcelus ( talk) 22:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
The Lithuanian village was certainly not called by a Polish-language name during the Russian Empire's existence, that's absurd) is faulty; because there is no logical connection between both statement; just because some village was part of Russian empire it doesn't mean it couldn't be called by a Polish name. Marcelus ( talk) 08:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I have done some work on the article's "skeleton".
This featured article very badly needs a thoroughgoing copyedit for English usage and style, which I don't now have time to undertake.
Thanks.
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please revert the image in the infobox to the previous.
The current image in the infobox (
commons:File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg added in
this revision) was altered using AI software and is likely innacurate. Please revert the change to the infobox, making it use the previous image (
commons:File:Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg), as can be seen in
this older revision.
Current infobox:
{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Józef Piłsudski
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}
Requested edit:
{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Piłsudski {{circa|1920s}}
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}
Alternatively, add another image that doesn't have AI-made changes.
CaradoWindows (
talk) 17:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Józef Piłsudski article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
Józef Piłsudski is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 5, 2010. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following seems very derogatory to France and Britain and Pilsudski:Chancellor Hitler repeatedly suggested a German-Polish alliance against the Soviet Union, but Piłsudski refused, instead preparing his horse-mounted cavalry for suicide charges against the vast Soviet armored divisions.[48][158] Until his death, Piłsudski believed Poland's policy must be to maintain neutral relations with the Germany Empire, while maintaining tenuous -- and illusory -- alliances with the weak French socialist bureaucracies and the isolationist British.[146] Is this really what the source says and if so can the source really be reliable or unbiased ? After all the alliance with Britain and France seemed ineffective rather than an illusion. In 1939 it was real enough to bring France and Britain into the war making the German Polish War a World War even though it didnt save Poland for defeat or give Poland real independence six years later. I don't have any expertise in this field and don't have the source book but it just seems wrong to me. Spinney Hill ( talk) 01:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The answer appears to be in an earlier version which I have re-instated which uses the source Spinney Hill ( talk) 09:52, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Regrettably, the article does not currently meet the FA criteria. I will start by listing the concrete issues:
I also see above that multiple editors have expressed concerns that the article downplays the authoritarian characteristics of his regime. Non-Polish sources describe his regime as a dictatorship, considering this one of the most prominent aspects of his life (notice it is mentioned in the short, one-paragraph summary in Encyclopedia of War). [1] [2] [3] In addition, The Polish Review did an issue dedicated to him in 2011 [2] and there was an interesting article on the subject, published just this year. [4] ( t · c) buidhe 06:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
References
References
Hi buidhe, GizzyCatBella and Piotrus, I anm pinging you because you commented on the above FAR notice. There are still outstanding issues for this article including citation needed tags, the honours section that has an "additional citations needed" banner, a long legacy section with many short paragraphs, and inconsistent formatting in the references section. Are any of you interested in bringing this article back to FA standards, or should this be brought to FAR? Z1720 ( talk) 19:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: Since you are actively editing this article, I want to take a much closer review of the article and conduct a copyedit. I am following WP:BOLD and editing some parts of the article, but I will need to seek clarification on some parts because I have never heard of this person and I don't know the history of this article or its FAC. I hope that you, or another editor, can answer some of my questions below, and I am sorry if they seem silly, ill-informed or pedantic. Please also review the copyedits I make to ensure I didn't accidentally change the meaning of a sentence. Questions are below:
This brings me to WWI. Please ping me when the above are addressed/resolved, and I will take another look. However, I am also very busy in real life so please excuse my delays in responding. Z1720 ( talk) 21:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
I responded to the bullet points above underneath each point, in order to keep the conversation organised and easy to follow, as is done at WP:FAC. I have signed all of the comments that I have added. If I did not add a comment, it means that I think it is resolved. I hope this is OK, and editors are invited to respond under the bullet points below:
This brings me to "Rebuilding Poland". Sorry that I am going slow with this review, I am busy at the moment so don't have time to read through large amounts of the article. Z1720 ( talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your response above Piotrus. Don't worry about the delays, I'm just happy someone is improving the article. More thoughts below:
This brings me to "In government". Z1720 ( talk) 17:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: any progress on the above? Z1720 ( talk) 00:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: I am so sorry that I have not given more comments; real life got busy. Please let me know if I missed any questions/concerns above. Here are some more comments:
I am at the end of the article. I'll do another readthrough once the above are complete. Z1720 ( talk) 02:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Additional comments:
More comments after the above are addressed. Z1720 ( talk) 04:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Note "b" does not make any sense so far as I can see. Can anyone improve it? Spinney Hill ( talk) 08:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
The infobox was too long and contained lists of names that distract from the more important elements in it. Therefore, I have removed/collapsed them [4] ( t · c) buidhe 20:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
It says in this section 31st of May, it doesn't say which year
Should be fixed /info/en/?search=User:EmilePersaud 16:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Rokkas Piłsudski is watching this.. StrangePersonality ( talk) 05:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
It says at the top that his name was Pilsudski not Pilsudski but the spellings appear to be exactly the same. What is going on here please?. Is there a mistake which still needs to be corrected? Spinney Hill ( talk) 09:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Three lines below the title and one above the start of the main text (certainly while logged in). No I see no diacritic in the name at either point although there is one over the O in Josef. -an accute accent in the main title and a dot in the first word of text.. Spinney Hill ( talk) 11:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello,
Requesting info box edit: add his position of Minister of Military Affairs (1928-1935) - because this is pretty important as it allowed him to influence the state until his death. Now it looks at first glance that he played no important role after 1928. Rebelbear ( talk) 11:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template.
Snowmanonahoe (
talk) 12:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Head of State section under Rebuilding Poland contains the following paragraph:
The day after his arrival in Warsaw, he met with old colleagues from his time working with the underground resistance, who addressed him socialist-style as "Comrade" (Towarzysz) and asked for his support for their revolutionary policies. He refused it and answered: "Comrades, I took the red tram of socialism to the stop called Independence, and that's where I got off. You may keep on to the final stop if you wish, but from now on let's address each other as 'Mister' [rather than continue using the socialist term of address, 'Comrade']!" He declined to support any party and did not form any political organization of his own; instead, he advocated creating a coalition government..
I tried to find the source of this quote, but it appears (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it in fact originated from Adolf Nowaczyński, who wrote of Piłsudzki in 1919 that he "got off the party tram at the stop called Independence". I believe a quote closer to the one cited in the Wikpedia article can be found in the monograph White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies, where he cites it as something that Piłsudzki himself "supposedly" said. On the other hand, Piłsudzki biographer Andrzej Garlicki says this quote is "not in [Piłsudzki's] style".
The "red tram" quote is no doubt a compelling representation of Piłsudzki's fascinating and somewhat mysterious relationship with socialism (plus it contributes to the popular conception of the man as a silver-tongued devil), but I think there's simply far too much disagreement about its authenticity for it to be included in the article the way it appears now. I suggest either removing the quote altogether or specifying that it's of dubious validity.
Sources consulted:
Although on November 12 a red banner was hung over the Royal Castle with Pilsudski's permission to calm the revolutionary mood, but after a few weeks, when the wave of important social reforms of the government appointed by the Provisional Head of State Jędrzej Moraczewski swept through the country, the banner was ordered without much publicity to be taken down by Pilsudski's closest associate at the time - Kazimierz Sosnkowski. The red-and-white banner returned to the Castle. Poland as a Republic - the Republic was reborn after 123 years of slavery; link), but it is better to find confirmation in the good RS. Marcelus ( talk) 08:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Grammar error: In the "Legacy" section, "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski's" should be "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski" 81.187.20.112 ( talk) 21:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
“First Marshall” should be changed to “First Marshal” in the short description. 142.167.21.12 ( talk) 15:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
@ Cukrakalnis can you give a reasoning for the Lithuanisation of the Zułów estate name? Marcelus ( talk) 22:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
The Lithuanian village was certainly not called by a Polish-language name during the Russian Empire's existence, that's absurd) is faulty; because there is no logical connection between both statement; just because some village was part of Russian empire it doesn't mean it couldn't be called by a Polish name. Marcelus ( talk) 08:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I have done some work on the article's "skeleton".
This featured article very badly needs a thoroughgoing copyedit for English usage and style, which I don't now have time to undertake.
Thanks.
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please revert the image in the infobox to the previous.
The current image in the infobox (
commons:File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg added in
this revision) was altered using AI software and is likely innacurate. Please revert the change to the infobox, making it use the previous image (
commons:File:Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg), as can be seen in
this older revision.
Current infobox:
{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Józef Piłsudski
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}
Requested edit:
{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Piłsudski {{circa|1920s}}
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}
Alternatively, add another image that doesn't have AI-made changes.
CaradoWindows (
talk) 17:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)