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I've heard that Pilsudski, although born Roman Catholic, became a Lutheran when he married in 1899, since his wife was of that faith. Unless anyone knows anything to the contrary, this should be in the article. Ausseagull ( talk) 14:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is he not called Józefa? 15:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff ( talk • contribs)
The issue is not whether this Lithuanian became dictator of Poland. He did. I'm not claiming whether this was bad or was good. Just that it's a fact. An addition like..."but widely accepted and supported by majority of the Polish population" does what? Change any of those facts? Hitler and Mussolini were dictators who were widely accepted and supported by majority of their populations. So what? It's a meaningless entry. Dr. Dan ( talk) 22:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Statues and memorials of Piłsudski were erected in Estonia and Latvia after Piłsudski's death, the Baltic states to this day (with the exception of Lithuania) still look with favour on Piłsudski for saving them from Communist Russia.
Now I cannot comment situation in Latvia, but I can pretty certainly say that Piłsudski isn't considered to have "saved" Estonia from Communist Russia.
Estonian War of Independence was over by the time then
Polish-Soviet War properly heated up, and I am not aware of any direct cooperation between Estonian and Polish forces. I do believe that Poland and Pilsudski were viewed generally positively, but definitely not considered "saviors". Speaking of "saving" its actually sometimes mentioned, that by being first nation to repel Soviet westward advance and therefore receiving major Red Army attention after that, Estonia actually gave other Baltic states and Poland more time to organize forces :P --
Staberinde (
talk) 12:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, why is important that the ukrainian name of Krakow ist Krakiv in this article? Especially since the paragraph in which this detail is mentioned has nothing to do with Ukraine? Deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.157.68 ( talk) 21:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
It could good to add how he decribed himself: „Jestem Litwinem” (I'm Lithuanian) [1] and "Litwin to najlepszy Polak" (Lithuanian is the best Pole). Norvila ( talk) 23:02, 3 April 2010 (EET)
>If term "Lithuanians" changed its meaning to "Samogitians", then the term "Poles" definitely should be changed to "Masurians" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.181.14.219 ( talk) 21:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
For a featured article this is awfully long (133 kb). How would people feel about trimming this down some? TallNapoleon ( talk) 05:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were no friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable. The next paragraph reads, This was in contrast to the Bolsheviks, who proclaimed the partitions of Poland null and void... Piłsudski thus speculated that Poland would be better off with the Bolsheviks. Both citations are backed by the same source, but it needs clarification. --Klaus Bertow 08:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klaus Bertow ( talk • contribs)
Tisane ( talk) 22:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Article states that Piłsudski claimed independence on November 11, 1918. But actually and formally Poland became independent on day 7 October, 1918. From this day, rules over Poland was in hand of president on the emigration (in UK AFAIK). So November 11, was more just a day Piłsudski aquired rights from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.213.255.7 ( talk) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed the alleged Count title for the Butler family as it does not concern this branch (the Counts are descendant of Gotthard-Wilhelm von Buttlar). These Butlers were confirmed as noble on September 19, 1805 by the nobility assembly of Wilno (see for example the report № 629 of the heraldry department of the governing senate taken on October 24, 1829). Missing names come from further documents of said heraldry department. Charlik ( talk) 09:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Polish Wikipedia mentions that he had also a brother named Kazimierz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.215.77 ( talk) 10:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Trivial and absolutely of no consequence to the subject. Józef Piłsudski had two daughters: Jadwiga and Wanda. No sons. This is not an article about Piłsudski family, but about J. P. himself. Both Wanda and Jadwiga had their children (in London, England). None of them are "Japanese". -- Emanek ( talk) 05:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
A while ago the infobox image was switched from File:Jozef Pilsudski1.jpg to File:Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored.jpg. While the new image has higher resolution, it is not needed for infobox purposes, and I find the old image "nicer". Polish Wikipedia uses File:Jozef Pilsudski.jpg, which is also nice. Comments appreciated, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Pilsudski's rule has been identified as dictatorship with many fascist features by many reliable academic sources and encyclopedias, published both during the Pilsudski dictatorship and later. Pilsudski dictatorship has been discussed on this Talk page earlier. Despite this facts, one of the editors of this page rejected the recently added sourced information as follows: "those aren't reliable sources (answers.com?), sources are being misrepresented and there's no discussion on talk (unless you're referring to some different account)".
To help with the discussion of this issue, here are the quotes from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine (October 3, 1927). The first four sources are quoted, for instance at http://www.answers.com/topic/j-zef-pilsudski .
He served as Poland's first head of state until the constitution was established in 1922. After staging a coup in 1926, he served as premier (1926-28) and minister of defense (1926-35) under handpicked premiers, enabling him to rule as the dictator of Poland. "Jozef Pilsudski." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 1994-2010
A militarist and extreme nationalist, he was again dictator in 1926-8 and from 1930 until his death. Although it was all too obvious what a resurgent Nazi Germany and Soviet Union meant for Poland, instead of seeking an alliance with similarly threatened Czechoslovakia, his foreign minister and eventual successor Józef Beck pursued irredentist claims. "Jozef Pilsudski." The Oxford Companion to Military History. Oxford University Press, 2001, 2004
From late 1926 to 1928, and again in 1930, Pilsudski served as Polish prime minister, ruling dictatorially and arresting members of the Sejm who opposed his rule. He was the real ruler of Poland, choosing the holders of important offices. "Jozef Pilsudski." Gale Encyclopedia of Biography. © 2006 by The Gale Group, Inc
There have been recent signs of the Polish Sejm (Parliament) attempting to oust Dictator Josef Pilsudski. The Polish political situation is somewhat unusual. The President (pedagogic Professor Ignatz Moscicki) is the impotent puppet of Josef Pilsudski, Premier, Minister of War & Marshal of Poland, who is actually the law. Although he appears in the Sejm on important occasions (such as political crises, when he dons his much-worn military uniform to terrify his opponents), he leaves much governmental business to another puppet: Vice Premier & Minister of Religion & Education, Professor Kazimierz Bartel.... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,731016,00.html#ixzz2D20Y4Dan. Time Magazine, Monday, Oct. 03, 1927. Retrieved on 2010-11-22.
See also the following comprehensive contemporary treatise on the subject: Clifford Eugene Garwick, The Pilsudski Dictatorship in Poland, Ohio State University, 1929, 560 pages.
The references to these and other sources are presently restored in the article on Dictator Pilsudski, in the section titled Dictatorship. The editors are requested to review the article on Pilsudski to make sure that POV reverts by Polish nationalists, revisionists and anti-Semites do not happen again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 ( talk) 23:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Richard M. Watt, Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, ISBN 0-671-22625-8:
"Although the Piłsudski regime had certainly become authoritarian, its counteropposition activities could not be compared to those of many other European governments during this [1930s] decade of emerging fascism....
"In fact, Piłsudski regarded fascism as a menace and some of his government's most immoderate attacks were directed against it. These antifascist moves came to a head in 1934, when the government dissolved several crypto-fascist parties that had arisen out of the right-wing National Democratic Party. One of these groups, the National Radical Camp (ONR), patterned itself closely after the German Nazis, complete with anti-Semitic extremism." (P. 302.)
"Interwar Poland was not a totalitarian state, nor were its leaders avowedly antidemocratic. At no time did Piłsudski or any of his successors refer to their regimes as 'dictatorships.'
"Interwar Poland was as democratic as any of the 'successor states,' and much more than most. In a period when many much larger European nations, like Italy, Germany and Spain, all became authentically fascist, it is incorrect to imply that the Polish political system even modestly resembled theirs.
"If the world's view of interwar Poland was frequently less than sympathetic, much of this disapproval was the result of Piłsudski's... disdain for... public relations." (Pp. 461-62.)
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Nihil novi: it would be appreciated, if you could explain the relevance of these quotes to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 ( talk) 09:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Marek: in relation to your latest edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=524743443&oldid=524734321 ) can you please clarify the following:
Marek: in the mean time, please stop reverting the sourced and referenced information. As you can see from the recent history of edits of this page, at least two more editors disagree with your removal of sourced information. Also, at least 3 other editors are telling you that Pilsudski is a dictator, on this Talk page. Let's try to arrive to a consensus. Otherwise, instead of these ridiculous reverts, try doing something that you guys are good at. I mean legal and harmless things, not stealing other peoples' cars or drinking potato vodka by buckets! For instance, those alternatives for you may include fixing some leaking faucets, installing few toilet bowls here and there or introducing us to a hot bloodied Agnieszka or two :)
The death of Pilsudski was commerated in the Reichstag 1935. As this is actually interesting, it should be included in the article. http://archive.org/details/AdolfHitlerWiedereinfuehrungDerWehrpflicht1935-05-21 -- 41.151.18.167 ( talk) 11:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
First let me point out that the Polish history between the late 1700's and 1991 is full of sad events, that has affected the Polish people. But the Polish history writing at Wikipedia must still follow Wikipedia rules. Not only by sources. The article about Józef Piłsudski is only reguarded from certain aspects. All (or most) negative sides removed. All non-Polish sources states that even if Piłsudski consolidated the new reborn Polish state in 1919, and defended this towards the USSR he also captured Lithuanian land,including it's present Capital city, Vilnius. Further in 1926 he made a military coup, and became dictator of Poland. Poland was not (as fx Czeckoslovakia in the 1930's) a democratical state. (yet article makes attacks against Czeckoslovakia, and do not explain reasons why Czeckoslovakia didn't want to form an alliance with Poland) And after his death the military junta ruled Poland, the most well-known member of this junta was Józef Beck (previously the foregin secreatary). In early 1937 Poland declined Germany to build a motorway and a dual track railway through the corridor, so that East Preussia and the main part of Germany could be connected. By 1938 when Hitler invaded the Sudetenland (where all Czeckoslovakian defencelines towards Germany were placed) or possibly in spring of 1938 when Hitler invaded the entire Bohemia and Mähren (the Czeck part of Czeckoslovakia), Poland also "grabbed" a piece of Czeckoslovakia. Not a large area, but still. The Polish regime 1926-1939 was no saint. (Even if Nazigermany was far worse, but that's beside the point). There is a clear tendance of only supporting certain points of views and disreguarding other, in both text and through the selected sources. Like what an (nameless) Italian ambassador might have told someone else (also nameless) about what he might have thought about the appearance of Piłsudski (without stating the circumstances or even in what year). This is an example of "hearsay by reference" and cannot be used in a serious historical article. United international world-wide sources supports that Piłsudski (and his military junta that succeeded him) was a dictator (and dictatorship junta). No general election was held in Poland 1926-39. The enitre article "tips" far too much in the opposite direction. Including several dubios and/or biosed sources. (not allbut far too many) There is an obvious lack of balance in the Józef Piłsudski article. (And rembember the Katyn massacre error that lasted 50 years) Boeing720 ( talk) 02:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
If any general election (available to all Polish people to vote) to the parliament or any kind of presidential election took place in Poland between may 1926 and the German (and 17 days later USSR- ) invation, then please enlighten me about these eledged elections. Boeing720 ( talk) 15:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC) By the way, my ato-login doesn't work after visits at other Wikipedias. My current IP is 83.249.173.211 ( talk) 15:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC) but is not permanent, just putting all cards on the table. (And I do not concider Polish people as car-thiefs etc.)/Boeing720, Scania, occupied by Sweden since 1711.
The Polish mint issued a silver 10-złoty commemorative coin featuring the Marshal's profile.
I am in doubt about this information. First, the sentence makes an impression that one of the special things about the coin was that it was silver; but in fact, all regular Polish coins (2, 5, and 10 złoty) until 1939 were made of silver, so this was nothing special. Second, indeed, there are known 2, 5, 10 zł (silver) coins which carry Marshal's profile on them, but they were issued a year earlier, in 1934, to mark the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the "Legionary Deed" in 1914. Third, I do not remember such a commemorative coin issued in 1935. So, until this information is properly sourced, I would be inclined to think that someone saw the coins with Piłsudski's profile on them, and assumed that they were commemorative of his death, not realizing that they have been issued in 1934. 159.205.56.119 ( talk) 19:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
That's a new low, even by Polish cabal standards. "Newly born Lithuanian state", well was a Kingdom of Lithuania circa 1251 did never exist, and Poles did not ever stole the rightful Vytautas crown. Such an undescribable desire to scorch and torture facts, to be on top of things, that they do not have a slightest idea about, what they're talking about. Lithuanian state was reestablished in the same manner as Poland. No less. Just without dubious partners, who did try to recover something, that did not ever belong to them. First Poland's President was shot for being Samogitian, and they still insist "recovered". This recovery, as a matter of fact was an international crime. Yup, Pilsudski, a Samogitian noble staged an international act of war, played his allies and "recovered". If it suits you, I would not care any more/ Have a good trip, just do not overdose. It is bad for your health and reputation. I do love to see ignorance to be portrayed as a patriotism. Lokyz ( talk) 21:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
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Ceremonies, masses and an enormous funeral were held; a funeral train toured Poland.
It did not "tour Poland". It just travelled - although slowly, to allow people gathering on the route to show respect - from Warsaw to Cracow by one direct route of about 300 km. Also, in the entire section, describing in detail what were the feelings of communists, socialists, national-democrats, ethnic minorities etc., it is clearly missing how the normal Polish citizens en masse reacted to that death: the crowds gathering to mourn were spontaneous, as Piłsudski was a very popular man being commonly highly esteemed for his legend of the one who revived the free Republic and successfully fought against Soviets to secure the liberty of the citizens.
Greetings,
I have a portrait of Józef Piłsudski. It is from the estate of another famous Polish general. If you are interested in possibly using it for this article. Please email me and I will scan it. I have to take it out of the frame to scan it, so I will not do that unless you are mostly serious.
Sincerely, Joseph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED ( talk) 01:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
References
According to Polish historic author Isaac Deutscher "Stalin - a political biography", Pilsudski was to blame for the war known as the Polish-Russian War. Pilsudski perhaps had good intentions even from an Ukranian point of view (but that is unclear), but his beliefs were at least a complete misjudgement of the Ukranian people. They didn't see Pilsudski or Poland as liberators, but as attackers. (The long Polish ruling and oppression vs Ukranians during the 16th and 17th century in memory, it was a stupid idea) There is also the Wilno -issue. After WW1, Poland's borders to Germany were (largely) regulated through referendums (where the people majority was unclear) but Poland's borders in the east wasn't regulated at all. Poland simply grabbed the Lithuanian capital. There also was some problem with Czechoslovakia, I believe. And the Polish state after 1926 became a fascist state. Very friendly with Mussolini's Italy, Dollfuss' Austria and later Franco's Spain. The new Poland was certainly no democratic state after Pilsudski's coup in 1926. Think the tone is too positive for this status. Boeing720 ( talk) 03:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
== Foreign Policy
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've heard that Pilsudski, although born Roman Catholic, became a Lutheran when he married in 1899, since his wife was of that faith. Unless anyone knows anything to the contrary, this should be in the article. Ausseagull ( talk) 14:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is he not called Józefa? 15:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff ( talk • contribs)
The issue is not whether this Lithuanian became dictator of Poland. He did. I'm not claiming whether this was bad or was good. Just that it's a fact. An addition like..."but widely accepted and supported by majority of the Polish population" does what? Change any of those facts? Hitler and Mussolini were dictators who were widely accepted and supported by majority of their populations. So what? It's a meaningless entry. Dr. Dan ( talk) 22:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Statues and memorials of Piłsudski were erected in Estonia and Latvia after Piłsudski's death, the Baltic states to this day (with the exception of Lithuania) still look with favour on Piłsudski for saving them from Communist Russia.
Now I cannot comment situation in Latvia, but I can pretty certainly say that Piłsudski isn't considered to have "saved" Estonia from Communist Russia.
Estonian War of Independence was over by the time then
Polish-Soviet War properly heated up, and I am not aware of any direct cooperation between Estonian and Polish forces. I do believe that Poland and Pilsudski were viewed generally positively, but definitely not considered "saviors". Speaking of "saving" its actually sometimes mentioned, that by being first nation to repel Soviet westward advance and therefore receiving major Red Army attention after that, Estonia actually gave other Baltic states and Poland more time to organize forces :P --
Staberinde (
talk) 12:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, why is important that the ukrainian name of Krakow ist Krakiv in this article? Especially since the paragraph in which this detail is mentioned has nothing to do with Ukraine? Deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.157.68 ( talk) 21:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
It could good to add how he decribed himself: „Jestem Litwinem” (I'm Lithuanian) [1] and "Litwin to najlepszy Polak" (Lithuanian is the best Pole). Norvila ( talk) 23:02, 3 April 2010 (EET)
>If term "Lithuanians" changed its meaning to "Samogitians", then the term "Poles" definitely should be changed to "Masurians" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.181.14.219 ( talk) 21:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
For a featured article this is awfully long (133 kb). How would people feel about trimming this down some? TallNapoleon ( talk) 05:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were no friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable. The next paragraph reads, This was in contrast to the Bolsheviks, who proclaimed the partitions of Poland null and void... Piłsudski thus speculated that Poland would be better off with the Bolsheviks. Both citations are backed by the same source, but it needs clarification. --Klaus Bertow 08:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klaus Bertow ( talk • contribs)
Tisane ( talk) 22:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Article states that Piłsudski claimed independence on November 11, 1918. But actually and formally Poland became independent on day 7 October, 1918. From this day, rules over Poland was in hand of president on the emigration (in UK AFAIK). So November 11, was more just a day Piłsudski aquired rights from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.213.255.7 ( talk) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed the alleged Count title for the Butler family as it does not concern this branch (the Counts are descendant of Gotthard-Wilhelm von Buttlar). These Butlers were confirmed as noble on September 19, 1805 by the nobility assembly of Wilno (see for example the report № 629 of the heraldry department of the governing senate taken on October 24, 1829). Missing names come from further documents of said heraldry department. Charlik ( talk) 09:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Polish Wikipedia mentions that he had also a brother named Kazimierz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.215.77 ( talk) 10:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Trivial and absolutely of no consequence to the subject. Józef Piłsudski had two daughters: Jadwiga and Wanda. No sons. This is not an article about Piłsudski family, but about J. P. himself. Both Wanda and Jadwiga had their children (in London, England). None of them are "Japanese". -- Emanek ( talk) 05:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
A while ago the infobox image was switched from File:Jozef Pilsudski1.jpg to File:Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored.jpg. While the new image has higher resolution, it is not needed for infobox purposes, and I find the old image "nicer". Polish Wikipedia uses File:Jozef Pilsudski.jpg, which is also nice. Comments appreciated, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Pilsudski's rule has been identified as dictatorship with many fascist features by many reliable academic sources and encyclopedias, published both during the Pilsudski dictatorship and later. Pilsudski dictatorship has been discussed on this Talk page earlier. Despite this facts, one of the editors of this page rejected the recently added sourced information as follows: "those aren't reliable sources (answers.com?), sources are being misrepresented and there's no discussion on talk (unless you're referring to some different account)".
To help with the discussion of this issue, here are the quotes from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine (October 3, 1927). The first four sources are quoted, for instance at http://www.answers.com/topic/j-zef-pilsudski .
He served as Poland's first head of state until the constitution was established in 1922. After staging a coup in 1926, he served as premier (1926-28) and minister of defense (1926-35) under handpicked premiers, enabling him to rule as the dictator of Poland. "Jozef Pilsudski." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 1994-2010
A militarist and extreme nationalist, he was again dictator in 1926-8 and from 1930 until his death. Although it was all too obvious what a resurgent Nazi Germany and Soviet Union meant for Poland, instead of seeking an alliance with similarly threatened Czechoslovakia, his foreign minister and eventual successor Józef Beck pursued irredentist claims. "Jozef Pilsudski." The Oxford Companion to Military History. Oxford University Press, 2001, 2004
From late 1926 to 1928, and again in 1930, Pilsudski served as Polish prime minister, ruling dictatorially and arresting members of the Sejm who opposed his rule. He was the real ruler of Poland, choosing the holders of important offices. "Jozef Pilsudski." Gale Encyclopedia of Biography. © 2006 by The Gale Group, Inc
There have been recent signs of the Polish Sejm (Parliament) attempting to oust Dictator Josef Pilsudski. The Polish political situation is somewhat unusual. The President (pedagogic Professor Ignatz Moscicki) is the impotent puppet of Josef Pilsudski, Premier, Minister of War & Marshal of Poland, who is actually the law. Although he appears in the Sejm on important occasions (such as political crises, when he dons his much-worn military uniform to terrify his opponents), he leaves much governmental business to another puppet: Vice Premier & Minister of Religion & Education, Professor Kazimierz Bartel.... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,731016,00.html#ixzz2D20Y4Dan. Time Magazine, Monday, Oct. 03, 1927. Retrieved on 2010-11-22.
See also the following comprehensive contemporary treatise on the subject: Clifford Eugene Garwick, The Pilsudski Dictatorship in Poland, Ohio State University, 1929, 560 pages.
The references to these and other sources are presently restored in the article on Dictator Pilsudski, in the section titled Dictatorship. The editors are requested to review the article on Pilsudski to make sure that POV reverts by Polish nationalists, revisionists and anti-Semites do not happen again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 ( talk) 23:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Richard M. Watt, Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, ISBN 0-671-22625-8:
"Although the Piłsudski regime had certainly become authoritarian, its counteropposition activities could not be compared to those of many other European governments during this [1930s] decade of emerging fascism....
"In fact, Piłsudski regarded fascism as a menace and some of his government's most immoderate attacks were directed against it. These antifascist moves came to a head in 1934, when the government dissolved several crypto-fascist parties that had arisen out of the right-wing National Democratic Party. One of these groups, the National Radical Camp (ONR), patterned itself closely after the German Nazis, complete with anti-Semitic extremism." (P. 302.)
"Interwar Poland was not a totalitarian state, nor were its leaders avowedly antidemocratic. At no time did Piłsudski or any of his successors refer to their regimes as 'dictatorships.'
"Interwar Poland was as democratic as any of the 'successor states,' and much more than most. In a period when many much larger European nations, like Italy, Germany and Spain, all became authentically fascist, it is incorrect to imply that the Polish political system even modestly resembled theirs.
"If the world's view of interwar Poland was frequently less than sympathetic, much of this disapproval was the result of Piłsudski's... disdain for... public relations." (Pp. 461-62.)
Nihil novi ( talk) 09:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Nihil novi: it would be appreciated, if you could explain the relevance of these quotes to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 ( talk) 09:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Marek: in relation to your latest edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=524743443&oldid=524734321 ) can you please clarify the following:
Marek: in the mean time, please stop reverting the sourced and referenced information. As you can see from the recent history of edits of this page, at least two more editors disagree with your removal of sourced information. Also, at least 3 other editors are telling you that Pilsudski is a dictator, on this Talk page. Let's try to arrive to a consensus. Otherwise, instead of these ridiculous reverts, try doing something that you guys are good at. I mean legal and harmless things, not stealing other peoples' cars or drinking potato vodka by buckets! For instance, those alternatives for you may include fixing some leaking faucets, installing few toilet bowls here and there or introducing us to a hot bloodied Agnieszka or two :)
The death of Pilsudski was commerated in the Reichstag 1935. As this is actually interesting, it should be included in the article. http://archive.org/details/AdolfHitlerWiedereinfuehrungDerWehrpflicht1935-05-21 -- 41.151.18.167 ( talk) 11:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
First let me point out that the Polish history between the late 1700's and 1991 is full of sad events, that has affected the Polish people. But the Polish history writing at Wikipedia must still follow Wikipedia rules. Not only by sources. The article about Józef Piłsudski is only reguarded from certain aspects. All (or most) negative sides removed. All non-Polish sources states that even if Piłsudski consolidated the new reborn Polish state in 1919, and defended this towards the USSR he also captured Lithuanian land,including it's present Capital city, Vilnius. Further in 1926 he made a military coup, and became dictator of Poland. Poland was not (as fx Czeckoslovakia in the 1930's) a democratical state. (yet article makes attacks against Czeckoslovakia, and do not explain reasons why Czeckoslovakia didn't want to form an alliance with Poland) And after his death the military junta ruled Poland, the most well-known member of this junta was Józef Beck (previously the foregin secreatary). In early 1937 Poland declined Germany to build a motorway and a dual track railway through the corridor, so that East Preussia and the main part of Germany could be connected. By 1938 when Hitler invaded the Sudetenland (where all Czeckoslovakian defencelines towards Germany were placed) or possibly in spring of 1938 when Hitler invaded the entire Bohemia and Mähren (the Czeck part of Czeckoslovakia), Poland also "grabbed" a piece of Czeckoslovakia. Not a large area, but still. The Polish regime 1926-1939 was no saint. (Even if Nazigermany was far worse, but that's beside the point). There is a clear tendance of only supporting certain points of views and disreguarding other, in both text and through the selected sources. Like what an (nameless) Italian ambassador might have told someone else (also nameless) about what he might have thought about the appearance of Piłsudski (without stating the circumstances or even in what year). This is an example of "hearsay by reference" and cannot be used in a serious historical article. United international world-wide sources supports that Piłsudski (and his military junta that succeeded him) was a dictator (and dictatorship junta). No general election was held in Poland 1926-39. The enitre article "tips" far too much in the opposite direction. Including several dubios and/or biosed sources. (not allbut far too many) There is an obvious lack of balance in the Józef Piłsudski article. (And rembember the Katyn massacre error that lasted 50 years) Boeing720 ( talk) 02:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
If any general election (available to all Polish people to vote) to the parliament or any kind of presidential election took place in Poland between may 1926 and the German (and 17 days later USSR- ) invation, then please enlighten me about these eledged elections. Boeing720 ( talk) 15:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC) By the way, my ato-login doesn't work after visits at other Wikipedias. My current IP is 83.249.173.211 ( talk) 15:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC) but is not permanent, just putting all cards on the table. (And I do not concider Polish people as car-thiefs etc.)/Boeing720, Scania, occupied by Sweden since 1711.
The Polish mint issued a silver 10-złoty commemorative coin featuring the Marshal's profile.
I am in doubt about this information. First, the sentence makes an impression that one of the special things about the coin was that it was silver; but in fact, all regular Polish coins (2, 5, and 10 złoty) until 1939 were made of silver, so this was nothing special. Second, indeed, there are known 2, 5, 10 zł (silver) coins which carry Marshal's profile on them, but they were issued a year earlier, in 1934, to mark the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the "Legionary Deed" in 1914. Third, I do not remember such a commemorative coin issued in 1935. So, until this information is properly sourced, I would be inclined to think that someone saw the coins with Piłsudski's profile on them, and assumed that they were commemorative of his death, not realizing that they have been issued in 1934. 159.205.56.119 ( talk) 19:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
That's a new low, even by Polish cabal standards. "Newly born Lithuanian state", well was a Kingdom of Lithuania circa 1251 did never exist, and Poles did not ever stole the rightful Vytautas crown. Such an undescribable desire to scorch and torture facts, to be on top of things, that they do not have a slightest idea about, what they're talking about. Lithuanian state was reestablished in the same manner as Poland. No less. Just without dubious partners, who did try to recover something, that did not ever belong to them. First Poland's President was shot for being Samogitian, and they still insist "recovered". This recovery, as a matter of fact was an international crime. Yup, Pilsudski, a Samogitian noble staged an international act of war, played his allies and "recovered". If it suits you, I would not care any more/ Have a good trip, just do not overdose. It is bad for your health and reputation. I do love to see ignorance to be portrayed as a patriotism. Lokyz ( talk) 21:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
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Ceremonies, masses and an enormous funeral were held; a funeral train toured Poland.
It did not "tour Poland". It just travelled - although slowly, to allow people gathering on the route to show respect - from Warsaw to Cracow by one direct route of about 300 km. Also, in the entire section, describing in detail what were the feelings of communists, socialists, national-democrats, ethnic minorities etc., it is clearly missing how the normal Polish citizens en masse reacted to that death: the crowds gathering to mourn were spontaneous, as Piłsudski was a very popular man being commonly highly esteemed for his legend of the one who revived the free Republic and successfully fought against Soviets to secure the liberty of the citizens.
Greetings,
I have a portrait of Józef Piłsudski. It is from the estate of another famous Polish general. If you are interested in possibly using it for this article. Please email me and I will scan it. I have to take it out of the frame to scan it, so I will not do that unless you are mostly serious.
Sincerely, Joseph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED ( talk) 01:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
References
According to Polish historic author Isaac Deutscher "Stalin - a political biography", Pilsudski was to blame for the war known as the Polish-Russian War. Pilsudski perhaps had good intentions even from an Ukranian point of view (but that is unclear), but his beliefs were at least a complete misjudgement of the Ukranian people. They didn't see Pilsudski or Poland as liberators, but as attackers. (The long Polish ruling and oppression vs Ukranians during the 16th and 17th century in memory, it was a stupid idea) There is also the Wilno -issue. After WW1, Poland's borders to Germany were (largely) regulated through referendums (where the people majority was unclear) but Poland's borders in the east wasn't regulated at all. Poland simply grabbed the Lithuanian capital. There also was some problem with Czechoslovakia, I believe. And the Polish state after 1926 became a fascist state. Very friendly with Mussolini's Italy, Dollfuss' Austria and later Franco's Spain. The new Poland was certainly no democratic state after Pilsudski's coup in 1926. Think the tone is too positive for this status. Boeing720 ( talk) 03:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
== Foreign Policy