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Just a question that requires a neutral and non-politicized answer.
There is a man named Hüseyin Pasha Boljanić who was from the Ottoman Bosnia Eyalet (province), but was born in what is now Montenegro. It is claimed that he was of a Bosniak origin (not sure what that even means when you're born circa 1500). Now, his name was historically known as Husein-paša Boljanić in the area, not just among "Bosniaks." What should this alternate name be specified as?
Should the intro paragraph start like:
or
We need an outside consensus on this. I'm not from the area, so I only have an outsider's point of view.
Thanks!
Ithinkicahn ( talk) 00:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello Ivan. What you have said about Boljanić being a 'Bosniak' only in today's sense (being Muslim from Bosnian territory) is indeed true but this modern approach to past characters and entities runs very deep on Wikipedia. What you have to remember is that prior to the rise of 19th century nationalism across European populations, the entire attitude to ethnicity was wholly different. Fluid as it is now with people switching one census to the next and even declaring themselves differently from their siblings or both their parents, in those days people from this region could have identified by half a dozen different ethnicities, your neighbour with three of yours and two of another; it must have been like playing Bingo or the lottery to find someone the same as you! :) Yet we accept, Catholics - Croat, and Orthodox followers - Serb, especially from Bosnia. The Bosniak view firmly acknowledges that the nation is a third Slavic group to the established and undisputed Croats and Serbs, not members of these nations who happen to practice Islam. It also observes the dominance of Islam to be the result of non-Muslims reassigning themselves Croat or Serb depending on faith. Croats and Serbs on the other hand state that the Bosniaks are their people (each claiming "ours") who converted to Islam. In truth, there had to be a bit of everything, converts, people changing, etc. Would you believe that many of the ancestors of today's Croats and Serbs actually called themselves Serbocroats when the language was new? That's how they came up in censa. Would you believe that non-Slavic nations themselves whilst assimilating adopted Serbocroat nation first before later breaking off with the faith. And would you believe that when in the 19th century there was the ethno-religious consistency for Serbs and Croats, many Bosniaks actually differentiated by calling themselves Turks, even so, it was never a claim that they were the same Turks as the Turkish speakers. This is why it is best to accept modern policies on historical subjects. --
Zavtek (
talk) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC) Striking out
sockpuppet.
bobrayner (
talk) 23:44, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Used sounds strange, could we have spoken instead? Languages, whether standardized or not, are spoken and written whichever way you look at it. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 23:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Standard languages are often more written than spoken, or at least better defined in writing than in speech, so "used" is probably the better term here. — kwami ( talk) 22:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
This is not an invitation for discussion but a request that you should stop engaging in POV-pushing by removing sourced reliable content. Kwami has called the source "sub-par" since it doesn't fit his agenda and user Taivo has claimed that the term is not of convenience although the source clearly says it is. The source is published by Britannica educational and the same assertion is found in the article on Serbo-Croatian in the Britannica encyclopedia [1]. Should this Wikipedia-breaching impudence continue I will take the matter to the noticeboard since there is not much to discuss, Kwami is calling a highly reliable source "sub-par" and Taivo claims it to be "wrong" by not adhering to his private view. All of this because they are determined to present Serbo-Croatian as a definite term. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 22:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Serbian is not language for Bosniaks. THE END Bosnian2330 ( talk) 08:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Quoting is actually not a necessity in this circumstance as long as the material added substantially retains the meaning of the source material, obviously. The phrasing used by Britannica places the Bosniaks in "other South Slavic groups" which is fine but awkward for the primary topic of this article (the standard language of the Bosniaks). Rephrasing the text from used to refer to the forms of speech employed by Serbs, Croats, and other South Slavic groups (such as Montenegrins and Bosniaks) to used to refer to the forms of speech employed by Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats, and other South Slavic groups such as Montenegrins is hardly a corruption of the original meaning but a valid adaptation to the scope of this article. However, I understand that some might be touchy to have the "ethnic supremacy" of the Serbs and Croats sapped by, God forbid, having the Bosniaks placed first. Sorry, though, this kind of nationalist sentiment has no place here. Also I would prefer to cite the EB web entry instead as it is more easily verifiable than Austria, Croatia, and Slovenia. Britannica Educational Publishing. 2013. p. 143 (which actually lifts the assertion in question from the S-C entry in the EB). Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 02:46, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Praxis Icosahedron: You're pushing one particular point of view as a universal fact. That "Bosnian language" existed in times of Kulin Charter, bosančica and has anything to with the 16th century dictionaries is a point of view advocated by some Bosniak linguists. Croatians and Serbian linguists generally do not acknowledge that, and neither do foreigners. You're very keen to establish some kind of "deep" cultural continuity in order to legitimize Bosnian. However we must present facts as bare facts, and opinions as opinions. Cherry-picked sources that mention Bosnian language without their authors knowing what they're talking about don't matter. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 17:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Uskufi's dictionary cannot be official dictionary of Bosnian because Bosnian language didn't officially exist until the 1990s. Charter of Kulin has nothing to do with modern Bosnian and is also claimed by Serbs and Croats. The source for Charter of Kulin being written in Bosnian is Miklošič reprint in Monumenta Serbica. We can mention that some Bosniak linguists claim that modern Bosnian is a continuation of literary tradition that has its roots in bosančica-written documents, but that has too be sourced to them specifically because it's not generally accepted. Feel free to involve whomever you like, what I speak is facts, and your edits are simply POV-pushing. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 20:01, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Same for the note you keep pushing, which serves no purpose but to suggest that SC is not really a language. You will need to involve someone else if you want to get consensus for such biases. — kwami ( talk) 20:14, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
To ask user JorisvS not to delete edits by users because deleting content with reference is vandalism. ;) -- LightWiki91 ( talk) 17:26, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
There is no problem mentioning them but they have to be carefully contextualized. Something along the line "Modern Bosnian language proponents trace back the Bosnian language literary tradition to Uskufi's dictionary, or early vernacular monuments such as Charter of Ban Kulin." Modern Bosnian language as such was invented out of thin air in the 1990s together with modern Croatian and Serbian, and such opinions merely represent a particular POV and not absolute truths. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 12:18, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Surtsicna: Even if we take Alexander [4] as the ultimate source, she says that Bosnian ... officially use both alphabets. Outside of the Serbian entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosnians almost always use Latin alphabet. Within that entity, ... both alphabets are regularly used. This leaves some precision to be desired, but obviously has in mind Bosnians, not Bosniaks. However, on page xviii, she goes on to say Now, Croatian and Bosnian use the Latin alphabet exclusively, while Serbian uses both freely. I can quote you several books which use similar phrasing; for example, Comrie has it The Cyrillic alphabet continues in use among Slavonic peoples of traditional Orthodox religion: [...] Serbian variety of Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian, while the others use the Latin alphabet. I think it's fairly obvious that Bosnian uses Cyrillic pretty much only de jure and for historical reasons (corpus of Bosnian literature from SFRY period). Maybe "marginal" was not the best choice of words, but Cyrillic, if mentioned, do need some sort of adjective in the lead to stress its secondary role, per WP:DUE. No such user ( talk) 07:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Didn't we have this exact same discussion at Talk:Bosnian language/Archive 4? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 06:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
"Official" implies a government sanctioned designation. Since there was no "Bosnia" in the 17th century, there could be no "official" designation for a dictionary. -- Taivo ( talk) 06:33, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
This article is written with a clear neo-nationalist agenda in mind, meaning that a new nation that started to officially exist in the 90's invented a new name for a well codified Eastern Herzegovinian dialect which is not only spoken by its authentic speakers the Serbs but also by the Muslims of Bosnia as well as a large portion of Croats. American is not a standard language, English is, in the same manner as Swiss and Austrian are not standard languages but German is. For the standard Serbo-Croatian language the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect was used as a literally basis, since it is the most wide-spread. Muslim Bosnians do not have a separate language other than the very same dialect which they use as well, the standard language however is/was called Serbo-Croatian. Since Croatian also uses other dialects than the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect like Kajkavian and Chakavian, the so called "Bosnian" language actually falls into the category of the Serbian language, since it has only one literally basis namely the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect which the Bosnian Muslims also use exclusively. The correct classification would be Bosnian Serbian, like Austrian German or American English, however like stated before, this article is written with a clear neo-nationalist agenda in mind (as in inventing a new national identity) rather than the analysis of actual facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.88.72 ( talk) 22:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Croatian language#the insistence that "Croatian" may only apply to the modern-day Croatian standard. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
So it appears a discussion is needed here. First of all, I ask everyone not to bring any nationalist claims here (example: Bosnian language is just altered Serbian), etc. We have information that, during the time of the Banate of Bosnia and Kingdom of Bosnia, Bosniaks (then known as Bošnjani) already spoke a language very similar to Bosnian today. However, due to the lagging behind of Bosniak nationalism and the powerful Croat and Serb nationalism, an official naming of the language seemed to have come a bit late. Notable is the fact that Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi Bosnevi, a Bosniak writer, made the first official Bosnian dictionary (originally used to translate Bosnian to Turkish and vice-versa). This was in 1631. In it, he specifically accents that we wrote a dictionary of the Bosnian language and that this is the language he and his countrymen speak. [1] The first Serbian dictionary and first academic mention of Serbian language at all was in 1818 (by Vuk Karadzic). As such, it seems a bit boggling that some consider Bosnian to be just a variety of Serbo-Croatian when the Bosnian language was established and written about in professional circles some 200 years before Serbian? I would like to get some feedback on this (historically accurate, please). The Destroyer Of Nyr ( talk) 23:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is an example of policy of some editors over here. First, it is possible to see that Controversy part takes about 50% of the article making it the main (sub)heading. All this Controversy part is about politics, not linguistics (meaning: not as it is asked for articles about some language), and it's still left untouched. All the other text (except Controversy part) is subject to cleanse and minorization, which suggests that language never existed seriously. Another political part is note about Kosovo: like it is important to give a long sentence about its' dispute with Serbia (OMG it's so important, meaning that it would not be used there if Serbia take it away - which is not true, Bosnian is used there before 1995, but under other name). Next thing I want to tune it on is its' history. All the history about Bosnian language is moved to article Serbo-Croatian. Why do you do that if term Serbo-Croatian is coined (meaning, first mentioned) in 19th century, and Bosnian (also with other terms: Serbian and Croatian) is mentioned far before it? All I can see (and probably others too) is that someone is trying to make this article minor and zipped, until it becomes article of no value, ready to delete or move-it-into-other-article. -- Munja ( talk) 00:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Serbian_Cyrillic_alphabet#Serbian_Cyrillic_script_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina, with the question "Should the name of Serbian Cyrillic script in Bosnia and Herzegovina-related articles (predominantly Republika Srpska-related articles) be simply "Cyrillic"?"-- Zoupan 02:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
The article gives an alternative name to "Bosnian" as "Bosniak" in English. The term "Bosniak" language is usually not used in English. All English-speaking language encyclopaedias (Routledge, Glottolog, Ethnologue etc.) register this language solely as "Bosnian" language. The Library of Congress registered the language as "Bosnian" and gave it an ISO-number. The Slavic language institutes in English-speaking countries offer courses in "Bosnian" or "Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian" language, not in "Bosniak" language. The same thing in the German-speaking countries: the language is taught under the name "Bosnisch", not "Bosniakisch" (with very few exceptions). The term "Bosniak" language is only used by some Serb and Croat linguists due to a controversy which was already described in the article. I think, there is no need to introduce the alternative name "Bosniak" language into English, when this glottonym is preferred only from some Serb and Croat linguists. Bosniak linguists, speakers of Bosnian, and the international linguistics call the language (almost) exclusively "Bosnian". My suggestion is to erase the alternative name "Bosniak", as there is no need to create any additional ambiguity in English. The paragraph about the "Controversy" should be retained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrDaRiva ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: may I ask the reasons of your revert? -- Dans ( talk) 18:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello! This is not a school book of Latin and Bosnian, but of arithmetics translated from Latin to Bosnian. Amator linguarum ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC) ( Amator linguarum)
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The Arebica variant of "Bosanski jezik" is بۉسانسقٖى يەزٖىق. Arebica was formerly used to write Bosnian language, but it doesn't hurt to keep it. سقەندەر جۆمحۆر ( talk) 14:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
95% of this text is simple not true. It has no foothold in historical facts. This article is the product of a politically revised history.
So, let's go with historical facts: 1. In Bosnia and Herzegovina arabica almost never been in use. 1a) Arabica've been in use only in officials of the Ottoman Empire who served in Bosnia, not in common people. 2. Bosnian/Bosniac language is product of politically revision of language in B&H started with 1993. 2a) Bosnian president Alija Izetbegović, who's the "guilty" for the creating the bosnian language, said: "We, Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, need to invent our own language to make difference of Serbs and Croats!" [Dnevni Avaz - february 1993.] 3. People in B&H always people wrote in Latin and spoke Croatian with Serbian grammatics 5. Bosnian Cyrillic is not really Bosnian. That letter originated on the Dalmatian island of Brač in XI. century in Povlja. 5a) The first document wrote in that letter is Povljanski prag (The threshold of Povlja) from 1180. 5b) Second one document wrote in that letter is Povljanska listina (Document from Povlja) from 1250.) In that time Bosnia no not exist, but Dalmatia hold most of nowadays Bosnia and Herzegovina. 5c) Third one document in this letter where "Poljički statut" (The Statud of Poljica) from 1655. (Poljica are area in Middle Dalmatia between Split and Omiš).
So... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.51.17 ( talk) 13:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Bosnian2330:, can you please stop with disruptive editing? This is unreasonable. Mhare ( talk) 17:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Bosnian language is not Serbo - Croatian language. Mun24 ( talk) 21:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
The first Bosnian dictionary published in 1631, the first Serbian dictionary published in 1818. How can Bosnian be Serbo-Croatian? Mun24 ( talk) 12:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This page has quite a bit of blank space -- after Standardization to see the old Bosnian alphabet image I have to scroll down an entire length of my screen before the article continues. Is this the case for anyone else? If so, perhaps some reorganization or reformatting is necessary. I'm using a 13" laptop. –– Iskerník ( talk) 00:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Bosnian ( /ˈbɒzniən/ ( listen); bosanski / босански, [bɔ̌sanskiː]), sometimes referred to as Bosniak language, is the standardized variety of the Serbo-Croatian pluricentric language mainly used by ethnic Bosniaks.
To say and write that Bosnian(Bosanski jezik) language is standardised variation of the Serb-Croat language is demeaning and insulting. They may be similar in writing and in speaking but they all differ at its HEART and CORE.
- All 3 languages(Bosanski,Srpski,Hrvatski) are originated from the Slavic language
- Bosnian(Bosanski) language is the language that is based(spoken and written) on IJEKAVICA. - Serbian(Srpski) language is based on EKAVICA - Croatian(Hrvatski) language is based on IKAVICA
Which makes all of them separate languages and to call selectivly one of those 3 as standardized version of the other two is misleading and demeaning.
-The name "Bosnian language" is a controversial issue for some Croats and Serbs, who also refer to it as the "Bosniak" language (Serbo-Croatian: bošnjački / бошњачки, [bǒʃɲaːtʃkiː]). Bosniak linguists however insist that the only legitimate name is "Bosnian" language (bosanski) and that that is the name that both Croats and Serbs should use. The controversy arises because the name "Bosnian" may seem to imply that it is the language of all Bosnians, while Bosnian Croats And Serbs reject that designation for their idioms.”
- Both Croats and Serbs reject it because they originate by Nationality and Ethnicity to Croatia(christians) and Serbia(Ortodox-pravoslavlje) However in reality speak the Bosnian language which is spoken in IJEKAVICA form of slavic language. I am a bosnian and hercegovinian and when i read some parts of these texts on wikipedia i was discusted.
I demand that the administration of the Wikipedia page fact checks propperly, respectfully, objectively and publishes in the same way!!!!!!! 92.240.33.174 ( talk) 05:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
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Just a question that requires a neutral and non-politicized answer.
There is a man named Hüseyin Pasha Boljanić who was from the Ottoman Bosnia Eyalet (province), but was born in what is now Montenegro. It is claimed that he was of a Bosniak origin (not sure what that even means when you're born circa 1500). Now, his name was historically known as Husein-paša Boljanić in the area, not just among "Bosniaks." What should this alternate name be specified as?
Should the intro paragraph start like:
or
We need an outside consensus on this. I'm not from the area, so I only have an outsider's point of view.
Thanks!
Ithinkicahn ( talk) 00:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello Ivan. What you have said about Boljanić being a 'Bosniak' only in today's sense (being Muslim from Bosnian territory) is indeed true but this modern approach to past characters and entities runs very deep on Wikipedia. What you have to remember is that prior to the rise of 19th century nationalism across European populations, the entire attitude to ethnicity was wholly different. Fluid as it is now with people switching one census to the next and even declaring themselves differently from their siblings or both their parents, in those days people from this region could have identified by half a dozen different ethnicities, your neighbour with three of yours and two of another; it must have been like playing Bingo or the lottery to find someone the same as you! :) Yet we accept, Catholics - Croat, and Orthodox followers - Serb, especially from Bosnia. The Bosniak view firmly acknowledges that the nation is a third Slavic group to the established and undisputed Croats and Serbs, not members of these nations who happen to practice Islam. It also observes the dominance of Islam to be the result of non-Muslims reassigning themselves Croat or Serb depending on faith. Croats and Serbs on the other hand state that the Bosniaks are their people (each claiming "ours") who converted to Islam. In truth, there had to be a bit of everything, converts, people changing, etc. Would you believe that many of the ancestors of today's Croats and Serbs actually called themselves Serbocroats when the language was new? That's how they came up in censa. Would you believe that non-Slavic nations themselves whilst assimilating adopted Serbocroat nation first before later breaking off with the faith. And would you believe that when in the 19th century there was the ethno-religious consistency for Serbs and Croats, many Bosniaks actually differentiated by calling themselves Turks, even so, it was never a claim that they were the same Turks as the Turkish speakers. This is why it is best to accept modern policies on historical subjects. --
Zavtek (
talk) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC) Striking out
sockpuppet.
bobrayner (
talk) 23:44, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Used sounds strange, could we have spoken instead? Languages, whether standardized or not, are spoken and written whichever way you look at it. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 23:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Standard languages are often more written than spoken, or at least better defined in writing than in speech, so "used" is probably the better term here. — kwami ( talk) 22:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
This is not an invitation for discussion but a request that you should stop engaging in POV-pushing by removing sourced reliable content. Kwami has called the source "sub-par" since it doesn't fit his agenda and user Taivo has claimed that the term is not of convenience although the source clearly says it is. The source is published by Britannica educational and the same assertion is found in the article on Serbo-Croatian in the Britannica encyclopedia [1]. Should this Wikipedia-breaching impudence continue I will take the matter to the noticeboard since there is not much to discuss, Kwami is calling a highly reliable source "sub-par" and Taivo claims it to be "wrong" by not adhering to his private view. All of this because they are determined to present Serbo-Croatian as a definite term. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 22:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Serbian is not language for Bosniaks. THE END Bosnian2330 ( talk) 08:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Quoting is actually not a necessity in this circumstance as long as the material added substantially retains the meaning of the source material, obviously. The phrasing used by Britannica places the Bosniaks in "other South Slavic groups" which is fine but awkward for the primary topic of this article (the standard language of the Bosniaks). Rephrasing the text from used to refer to the forms of speech employed by Serbs, Croats, and other South Slavic groups (such as Montenegrins and Bosniaks) to used to refer to the forms of speech employed by Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats, and other South Slavic groups such as Montenegrins is hardly a corruption of the original meaning but a valid adaptation to the scope of this article. However, I understand that some might be touchy to have the "ethnic supremacy" of the Serbs and Croats sapped by, God forbid, having the Bosniaks placed first. Sorry, though, this kind of nationalist sentiment has no place here. Also I would prefer to cite the EB web entry instead as it is more easily verifiable than Austria, Croatia, and Slovenia. Britannica Educational Publishing. 2013. p. 143 (which actually lifts the assertion in question from the S-C entry in the EB). Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK) 02:46, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Praxis Icosahedron: You're pushing one particular point of view as a universal fact. That "Bosnian language" existed in times of Kulin Charter, bosančica and has anything to with the 16th century dictionaries is a point of view advocated by some Bosniak linguists. Croatians and Serbian linguists generally do not acknowledge that, and neither do foreigners. You're very keen to establish some kind of "deep" cultural continuity in order to legitimize Bosnian. However we must present facts as bare facts, and opinions as opinions. Cherry-picked sources that mention Bosnian language without their authors knowing what they're talking about don't matter. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 17:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Uskufi's dictionary cannot be official dictionary of Bosnian because Bosnian language didn't officially exist until the 1990s. Charter of Kulin has nothing to do with modern Bosnian and is also claimed by Serbs and Croats. The source for Charter of Kulin being written in Bosnian is Miklošič reprint in Monumenta Serbica. We can mention that some Bosniak linguists claim that modern Bosnian is a continuation of literary tradition that has its roots in bosančica-written documents, but that has too be sourced to them specifically because it's not generally accepted. Feel free to involve whomever you like, what I speak is facts, and your edits are simply POV-pushing. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 20:01, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Same for the note you keep pushing, which serves no purpose but to suggest that SC is not really a language. You will need to involve someone else if you want to get consensus for such biases. — kwami ( talk) 20:14, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
To ask user JorisvS not to delete edits by users because deleting content with reference is vandalism. ;) -- LightWiki91 ( talk) 17:26, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
There is no problem mentioning them but they have to be carefully contextualized. Something along the line "Modern Bosnian language proponents trace back the Bosnian language literary tradition to Uskufi's dictionary, or early vernacular monuments such as Charter of Ban Kulin." Modern Bosnian language as such was invented out of thin air in the 1990s together with modern Croatian and Serbian, and such opinions merely represent a particular POV and not absolute truths. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 12:18, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Surtsicna: Even if we take Alexander [4] as the ultimate source, she says that Bosnian ... officially use both alphabets. Outside of the Serbian entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosnians almost always use Latin alphabet. Within that entity, ... both alphabets are regularly used. This leaves some precision to be desired, but obviously has in mind Bosnians, not Bosniaks. However, on page xviii, she goes on to say Now, Croatian and Bosnian use the Latin alphabet exclusively, while Serbian uses both freely. I can quote you several books which use similar phrasing; for example, Comrie has it The Cyrillic alphabet continues in use among Slavonic peoples of traditional Orthodox religion: [...] Serbian variety of Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian, while the others use the Latin alphabet. I think it's fairly obvious that Bosnian uses Cyrillic pretty much only de jure and for historical reasons (corpus of Bosnian literature from SFRY period). Maybe "marginal" was not the best choice of words, but Cyrillic, if mentioned, do need some sort of adjective in the lead to stress its secondary role, per WP:DUE. No such user ( talk) 07:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Didn't we have this exact same discussion at Talk:Bosnian language/Archive 4? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 06:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
"Official" implies a government sanctioned designation. Since there was no "Bosnia" in the 17th century, there could be no "official" designation for a dictionary. -- Taivo ( talk) 06:33, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
This article is written with a clear neo-nationalist agenda in mind, meaning that a new nation that started to officially exist in the 90's invented a new name for a well codified Eastern Herzegovinian dialect which is not only spoken by its authentic speakers the Serbs but also by the Muslims of Bosnia as well as a large portion of Croats. American is not a standard language, English is, in the same manner as Swiss and Austrian are not standard languages but German is. For the standard Serbo-Croatian language the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect was used as a literally basis, since it is the most wide-spread. Muslim Bosnians do not have a separate language other than the very same dialect which they use as well, the standard language however is/was called Serbo-Croatian. Since Croatian also uses other dialects than the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect like Kajkavian and Chakavian, the so called "Bosnian" language actually falls into the category of the Serbian language, since it has only one literally basis namely the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect which the Bosnian Muslims also use exclusively. The correct classification would be Bosnian Serbian, like Austrian German or American English, however like stated before, this article is written with a clear neo-nationalist agenda in mind (as in inventing a new national identity) rather than the analysis of actual facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.88.72 ( talk) 22:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Croatian language#the insistence that "Croatian" may only apply to the modern-day Croatian standard. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
So it appears a discussion is needed here. First of all, I ask everyone not to bring any nationalist claims here (example: Bosnian language is just altered Serbian), etc. We have information that, during the time of the Banate of Bosnia and Kingdom of Bosnia, Bosniaks (then known as Bošnjani) already spoke a language very similar to Bosnian today. However, due to the lagging behind of Bosniak nationalism and the powerful Croat and Serb nationalism, an official naming of the language seemed to have come a bit late. Notable is the fact that Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi Bosnevi, a Bosniak writer, made the first official Bosnian dictionary (originally used to translate Bosnian to Turkish and vice-versa). This was in 1631. In it, he specifically accents that we wrote a dictionary of the Bosnian language and that this is the language he and his countrymen speak. [1] The first Serbian dictionary and first academic mention of Serbian language at all was in 1818 (by Vuk Karadzic). As such, it seems a bit boggling that some consider Bosnian to be just a variety of Serbo-Croatian when the Bosnian language was established and written about in professional circles some 200 years before Serbian? I would like to get some feedback on this (historically accurate, please). The Destroyer Of Nyr ( talk) 23:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is an example of policy of some editors over here. First, it is possible to see that Controversy part takes about 50% of the article making it the main (sub)heading. All this Controversy part is about politics, not linguistics (meaning: not as it is asked for articles about some language), and it's still left untouched. All the other text (except Controversy part) is subject to cleanse and minorization, which suggests that language never existed seriously. Another political part is note about Kosovo: like it is important to give a long sentence about its' dispute with Serbia (OMG it's so important, meaning that it would not be used there if Serbia take it away - which is not true, Bosnian is used there before 1995, but under other name). Next thing I want to tune it on is its' history. All the history about Bosnian language is moved to article Serbo-Croatian. Why do you do that if term Serbo-Croatian is coined (meaning, first mentioned) in 19th century, and Bosnian (also with other terms: Serbian and Croatian) is mentioned far before it? All I can see (and probably others too) is that someone is trying to make this article minor and zipped, until it becomes article of no value, ready to delete or move-it-into-other-article. -- Munja ( talk) 00:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Serbian_Cyrillic_alphabet#Serbian_Cyrillic_script_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina, with the question "Should the name of Serbian Cyrillic script in Bosnia and Herzegovina-related articles (predominantly Republika Srpska-related articles) be simply "Cyrillic"?"-- Zoupan 02:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
The article gives an alternative name to "Bosnian" as "Bosniak" in English. The term "Bosniak" language is usually not used in English. All English-speaking language encyclopaedias (Routledge, Glottolog, Ethnologue etc.) register this language solely as "Bosnian" language. The Library of Congress registered the language as "Bosnian" and gave it an ISO-number. The Slavic language institutes in English-speaking countries offer courses in "Bosnian" or "Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian" language, not in "Bosniak" language. The same thing in the German-speaking countries: the language is taught under the name "Bosnisch", not "Bosniakisch" (with very few exceptions). The term "Bosniak" language is only used by some Serb and Croat linguists due to a controversy which was already described in the article. I think, there is no need to introduce the alternative name "Bosniak" language into English, when this glottonym is preferred only from some Serb and Croat linguists. Bosniak linguists, speakers of Bosnian, and the international linguistics call the language (almost) exclusively "Bosnian". My suggestion is to erase the alternative name "Bosniak", as there is no need to create any additional ambiguity in English. The paragraph about the "Controversy" should be retained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrDaRiva ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: may I ask the reasons of your revert? -- Dans ( talk) 18:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello! This is not a school book of Latin and Bosnian, but of arithmetics translated from Latin to Bosnian. Amator linguarum ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC) ( Amator linguarum)
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The Arebica variant of "Bosanski jezik" is بۉسانسقٖى يەزٖىق. Arebica was formerly used to write Bosnian language, but it doesn't hurt to keep it. سقەندەر جۆمحۆر ( talk) 14:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
95% of this text is simple not true. It has no foothold in historical facts. This article is the product of a politically revised history.
So, let's go with historical facts: 1. In Bosnia and Herzegovina arabica almost never been in use. 1a) Arabica've been in use only in officials of the Ottoman Empire who served in Bosnia, not in common people. 2. Bosnian/Bosniac language is product of politically revision of language in B&H started with 1993. 2a) Bosnian president Alija Izetbegović, who's the "guilty" for the creating the bosnian language, said: "We, Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, need to invent our own language to make difference of Serbs and Croats!" [Dnevni Avaz - february 1993.] 3. People in B&H always people wrote in Latin and spoke Croatian with Serbian grammatics 5. Bosnian Cyrillic is not really Bosnian. That letter originated on the Dalmatian island of Brač in XI. century in Povlja. 5a) The first document wrote in that letter is Povljanski prag (The threshold of Povlja) from 1180. 5b) Second one document wrote in that letter is Povljanska listina (Document from Povlja) from 1250.) In that time Bosnia no not exist, but Dalmatia hold most of nowadays Bosnia and Herzegovina. 5c) Third one document in this letter where "Poljički statut" (The Statud of Poljica) from 1655. (Poljica are area in Middle Dalmatia between Split and Omiš).
So... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.51.17 ( talk) 13:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Bosnian2330:, can you please stop with disruptive editing? This is unreasonable. Mhare ( talk) 17:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Bosnian language is not Serbo - Croatian language. Mun24 ( talk) 21:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
The first Bosnian dictionary published in 1631, the first Serbian dictionary published in 1818. How can Bosnian be Serbo-Croatian? Mun24 ( talk) 12:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This page has quite a bit of blank space -- after Standardization to see the old Bosnian alphabet image I have to scroll down an entire length of my screen before the article continues. Is this the case for anyone else? If so, perhaps some reorganization or reformatting is necessary. I'm using a 13" laptop. –– Iskerník ( talk) 00:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Bosnian ( /ˈbɒzniən/ ( listen); bosanski / босански, [bɔ̌sanskiː]), sometimes referred to as Bosniak language, is the standardized variety of the Serbo-Croatian pluricentric language mainly used by ethnic Bosniaks.
To say and write that Bosnian(Bosanski jezik) language is standardised variation of the Serb-Croat language is demeaning and insulting. They may be similar in writing and in speaking but they all differ at its HEART and CORE.
- All 3 languages(Bosanski,Srpski,Hrvatski) are originated from the Slavic language
- Bosnian(Bosanski) language is the language that is based(spoken and written) on IJEKAVICA. - Serbian(Srpski) language is based on EKAVICA - Croatian(Hrvatski) language is based on IKAVICA
Which makes all of them separate languages and to call selectivly one of those 3 as standardized version of the other two is misleading and demeaning.
-The name "Bosnian language" is a controversial issue for some Croats and Serbs, who also refer to it as the "Bosniak" language (Serbo-Croatian: bošnjački / бошњачки, [bǒʃɲaːtʃkiː]). Bosniak linguists however insist that the only legitimate name is "Bosnian" language (bosanski) and that that is the name that both Croats and Serbs should use. The controversy arises because the name "Bosnian" may seem to imply that it is the language of all Bosnians, while Bosnian Croats And Serbs reject that designation for their idioms.”
- Both Croats and Serbs reject it because they originate by Nationality and Ethnicity to Croatia(christians) and Serbia(Ortodox-pravoslavlje) However in reality speak the Bosnian language which is spoken in IJEKAVICA form of slavic language. I am a bosnian and hercegovinian and when i read some parts of these texts on wikipedia i was discusted.
I demand that the administration of the Wikipedia page fact checks propperly, respectfully, objectively and publishes in the same way!!!!!!! 92.240.33.174 ( talk) 05:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)