How is Bosnian different from Serbo-Croatian? Which alphabet is it written in? This article needs work. -- Zoe
I've added some info on Bosnian language, using material from Herceg Bosna site (which, by the way, I'm authorised to do).
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
I know it's not a common practice on Wikipedia to delete stuff but... I propose the following rewrite of the present, rather too detailed writeup. -- Vedran 22:52, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Bosnian language is one of the standard written versions of a language that used to be known as Serbo-Croatian language. The other two versions are Croatian language and Serbian language. Latin alphabet is primarily used, although cyrillic is also specified.
Bosnian language is spoken primarily by Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina and elsewhere. The estimated number of speakers is 4 million.
The Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina lists Bosnian language as one of three languages officially spoken in this country, the other two being Croatian and Serbian. Bosnian Croats and Serbs use these two languages respectively. The ISO 639 standard specifies that Bosnian should be denoted with acronyms bs and bos.
Why Bosnian?
Bosnian language originated mostly as a reaction to the rising nationalisms in neighboring nations. For understandable reasons, Bosniaks didn't see fit to label their language as Serbian, Croatian or Serbo-Croatian. Most Bosniaks believe that it is a single language with three names. However, divergence of language norms is gradually making it harder for their speakers to understand the people on the wrong side of the fence.
As opposed to other norms, Bosnian mostly remained faithful to the old neoshtokavian standard, with notable exception of preservation of letter h (in words such as lahko /easy/ and historija /history/), a larger assortment of turcisms and a few original inventions (treating uredu /allright/ as a single word, ?etverica /four men/ instead of ?etvorica etc.)
However, most Bosnian linguists belong to the school of thought that claims that language is a living thing that cannot be standardised and that grammars and dictionaries should merely record the factual reality. Thus, where Serbian and Croatian disagree, Bosnian typically allows both variants and sometimes offers a third one. Only ambiguities are resolved, usually preferring the Croatian solution. This, in linguists' opinion, promotes "richness" of Bosnian language.
Bosnian could best be described as an ex-Serbo-Croatian meta-language or even anti-language - considering definitions of "language" as used by Croatian and Serbian linguists.
The name controversy
Bosniak/Bosnian dualism has resulted in a similar controversy with the name of language. Indeed, historical documents frequently mention Bosnian language, but almost never a "Bosniak language". The fallacy of using the name Bosnian for a language not spoken by all Bosnians is the same as the one of using the name Croatian or Serbian for a language also spoken by people that are not Croats nor Serbs. Of course, the usual suspects that deny this name are the same ones that on other occasions deny the Bosniak national name.
External resources
Centres of institutional research:
Major linguistical publications:
Other useful links:
Maknuti ovu smijesnu sliku "Povelje Kulina bana", koja je stripovska preslika izvornika na kaligrafsku latinicu puckoskolskoga tipa. Nevjerojatno kakvi debilizmi ovdje prolaze. Mir Harven 12:44, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Translation to English, since this is, after all, the English Wikipedia: This ludicrous picture of the Kulin ban Charter needs to be removed, as it is a comic-book copy of the original transcribed into calligraphic Latin that looks like it was made by a child from grade school. It's incredible what kind of idiocy gets by here. MH will correct me if necessary :) -- Joy [shallot] 22:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I believe the move of Bosnian language to Bosniak language is nationalist POV. The language is normally called "Bosnian" in english, and "bosanski" in Bosnian, not "bošnjački". I tried to undo the move, by first moving the new Bosnian language (with the redirect) out of the way to bosanski jezik, so that I could move bosniak language back, but it didn't allow me to do that. So I restored the redirects on "Bosnian language" to the original text (which is still at "Bosniak language". But it should be the other way around. The major text should be at "Bosnian language". "Bosniak" can be a redirect. "Bosanski jezik" should be deleted, as it was intended to be a temporary page. - Key45 18:14, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've restored it. I haven't seen "Bosniak language" used as often as "Bosnian language" so it should stay as is merely based on real-world use. The dilemma regarding the implications of the name can stay in the article text. -- Joy [shallot] 22:11, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"In the days of Communist Yugoslavia the lexis was Serbianized [my comment: huh?] but the Latin script became dominant; the official name was Serbo-Croatian. After the collapse of Yugoslavia Bosniaks remained the sole inheritors of the Serbo-Croatian hybrid [my comment: hybrid? What hybrid?] in Bosnian variant and are trying to reshape it, under the new name of Bosnian, into a distinct national/ethnic standard language."
Exactly, the politicians and "linguists" are reshaping the language the ordinary people speak! Under a new name, an' all. What a brave world we live in!
Also, what is this "serbianisation" of the lexis during the communist era? Something that was recently imagined? Perhaps by Haris Silajdzic? Lol!
Also, another issue. Quote:
"The Bosniaks' national emancipation lagged behind that of the Serbs and Croats, and since denominational, rather than cultural or linguistic issues played the pivotal role, a Bosnian language project didn't arouse much interest or support."
Haha! A "project", huh? Not an evolutionary language that's been passed down and modified by each generation? Well...
However, this national emacipation of the Bosniaks, that is referred to in the article. How long did it lag behind the Serbian and Croatian national emancipations? A century, perhaps?
What did the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks call themselves back then (in the 19th century)?
The truth is the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks used to consider themselves during the Ottoman occupation as "Turks", since they considered their religion, Islam, as "Turkish". The Christian Serbs and Croats called them Turks as well. And another thing, when the Serbs were trying to liberate Bosnia in the 1870s, the the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks did not follow the Serbs but oppose them, siding with the imperial occupiers for religious reasons.
I believe that it was since 1878, when Bosnia and Herzergovina had new imperial masters to occupy it, that the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Christians (Serbs and Croats, of course) started to interact with each other, more than they did during the centuries of Ottoman rule.
Alan.
This article cannot be used as a neutral, it's filled with nationalism like feelings, and I would like if moderators would note that.
If bosnian is a language where does it derive from. this is not listed. i see it is slavic but if the bosnian people all of a sudden popped up on the map and they have their own language now that is basically serbian... how could that be considered bosnian? it is a different dialect of serbian. serbs in bosnia speak the same, it is just like the english spoken in new york, to california, to alabama are all different. you have bubbler-water fountaint, you guys - you guuuuys. all the other weird california words, now does new york or chicago get their own language because of small differences, what about the huge spanish influence in san diego and so-cal, is that now officially spanglish? I think this is a stupid article with no factual information just a bunch of nationalistic turkish feelings, i mean come on bosnian dictionary and all that other jive you speak of is ridiculous. i say we erase this post and i want to question the neutrality.
However, the present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbia and Montenegro has been very anti-Bosnian, and the faliure to recognize the existence of Bosnian language is not surprising. Both Croatian and Serbian nationalists are very unlikely to give any practical recognition to the existence of the Bosnian language, although they officially do recognize it.
This paragraph is removed because: -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a relevant study about "present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbian and Montenegro". I can say that it is not true. Croats supports a lot of Bosniak emigration (in Croatia) and both Bosniak national parties are in Serbian government. (I.e., I don't see any anti-Bosnian political climate.) -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"is not surprising" is clear political propaganda in the context. -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The information "what SR. and HR nationalists think and like" is not relevant inside of the article about Bosnian language. More relevant story is said before (about what do think RS and Serbian authorities as well as what do think Serbian and Croatian linguists). -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed this sentece, temporary:
"However, the present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbia and Montenegro has been very anti-Bosnian, and the faliure to recognize the existence of Bosnian language is not surprising."
I will try to get you some proofs and to quote Natasha Kandic or others Serbian intelectuals which will confirm, that above sentence is correct. And I will quote war criminals like Radovan Karadic, Vojislav Seselj, Radoslav Brdjanin, Milorad Dodik, Biljana Plavsic etc which will support that Serbian and Croatian nationalist dont recognize Bosnian language. This information is as relevant as the information about Serbian and Croatian linguists, because most of them are nationalists and they sholdnt talk about Bosnian language at all, because Bosnian linguists dont talk abot Serbian language. Emir Arven 20:16, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
As I said before, I will put some statemens here that will confirm the above sentence.
Serbian minister Vladan Batic's statement
DHSS vice president Zivojin Stepic said that according to information that DHSS had Ratko Mladic was in Belgrade.
'He is moving from military objects to flat in Cerak or to flat in New Belgrade.
DHSS president Vladan Batic also said that Mladic was in Belgrade. 'Authorities in Belgrade know that', Batic said.
This is very anti-Bosnian policy, because Ratko Mladic is the one responsible for Genocide in Srebrenica (Bosnian and Herzegovina). Emir Arven 20:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I will just quote Louise Branson an editorial writer for USA TODAY. Serb nationalism
Serb nationalism
Before the wars, in the 1980s, the Serb capital Belgrade was the cosmopolitan Paris of Eastern Europe. It is now a dreary backwater, left behind as neighbors sprout modern shopping malls, McDonald's and skyscrapers and join Western clubs from NATO to the European Union. The Serb mafiosos and gangsters remain a nationalistic, intimidating force. Despite the efforts of some human rights campaigners and hard-hitting media outlets, nationalist sentiment still runs high. In a Serb opinion poll in May, more than half denied the Srebrenica massacre even took place.
Last month, however, Serbs got a chance to break out of the denial. Serb TV broadcast a video of part of the massacre. In it, Serb paramilitaries — the "Scorpions" — pull six battered, emaciated men from a truck, hands tied behind their backs. At least three are shot at close range. A Serb Orthodox priest blesses their actions against the "infidels." It was the Serbs' first incontrovertible evidence that they, not just rogue Bosnian Serb "cousins," were complicit: The Scorpions, as other paramilitary groups, were under the direct command of the Serb police.
The fact that it took a full 10 years for the video to emerge is already testimony to the resistance. The film was first played at The Hague tribunal, where it was sent by Serb human rights campaigner Natasha Kandic, who has long been subject to death threats. The Hague has, until now, largely enabled Serbs' denial. Milosevic's trial is being carried out far away, by foreigners, encouraging many to feel they, too, are being victimized. But the videotaped evidence cannot be so easily dismissed.
There are signs it might provide the needed psychological jolt out of the surreal world that Milosevic — much as Hitler — constructed. His nationalist propaganda denied inconvenient realities — though the truth was known.
Serbian men, as the Scorpions, were drafted to fight in the wars, often going with gusto. They knew what was happening, bringing information back to families and friends. When I visited Serb homes near Srebrenica months after the massacre, people shrugged about what might have happened to the "disappeared." But their exchanged glances told a different story. Police cars pulled up at the houses after I left, suggesting an official effort to suppress any breaking of the collective coverup.
Biljana Plavšić a Serb intellectual and professor, the highest-ranking Serbian politician from the former Yugoslavia pleaded guilty to a single charge of crimes against humanity. Plavšić's statement repeated her admission of guilt. It said she had refused to believe stories of atrocities against Bosniaks and Croatians and accepted without question the claims that Serbs were fighting for survival:
"I have now ... accepted that many thousands of innocent people were the victims of organized, systematic efforts from the territory claimed by Serbs...The knowledge that I'm responsible for such human suffering and for soiling the character of my people will always be with me."
Statements by Jovan Rašković a Serb intellectual, founder of the Serbian Democratic Party of Croatia:
"I feel responsible because I made the preparations for this war, even if not the military preparations. If I hadn’t created this emotional strain in the Serbian people, nothing would have happened... My party and I lit the fuse of Serbian nationalism not only in Croatia but everywhere else in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It’s impossible to imagine an SDP (Serbian Democratic Party) in Bosnia-Herzegovina or a Mr. Karadzic in power without our influence. We have driven this people and we have given it an identity. I have repeated again and again to this people that it comes from heaven, not earth."
Statement by Radovan Karadžić an intellectual, co-founder of Republika Srpska and its first president, alluded to the origins of this ideology on March 4, 1992 to the Bosnian Parliament:
"...the road to which you want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina is the same highway of hell which Slovenia and Croatia took. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslims into annihilation... Muslims can't defend themselves if there is war here"...
So, you are trying to say that Biljana Plavsic, Jovan Raskovic and Radovan Karadzic are (were) citizens of Serbia and Montenegro, not Bosnia and Herzegovina (Croatia)? -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, write something better about Bosancica... -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 15:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed this part, I have already explained why (script is not language, it is heritage) Emir Arven 16:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC):
"Bosnian Cyrillic is an extinct Cyrillic script from where the bosnian language is descending,Bosnian Cyrillic had been used in Bosnia and Herzegovina by bosniak bogomils. It's name in Bosnian is bosančica. The origin of the bosnian language is, when looking at Bosnian Cyrillic, the oldest of all three counting bosnian, serbian and croatian. And it may very well be thought that croatian and serbian developed from bosnian."
And I replaced this with the sentace:
Bosnians have also used script, that was less standardized, so it had more versions and names: bosančica, Bosnian Cyrillic (means the script that was originally from Bosnia), begovica (used by Bosniak nobility). Bosniaks have also used arabic script.
Please see the new page at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic), aimed at
— Michael Z. 2005-12-9 20:36 Z
The line
is transparently bogus. A significant percentage of linguists have no opinion on the matter, not knowing the first thing about Bosnian, and two different idiolects are likely not to be fully mutally intelligible. Moreover, it's simply not true; according to the ausbausprache page, "Two language forms that allow easy mutual communication are regarded as two different languages by sociolinguists if they are each an Ausbausprache according to this definition." I don't know if using a term such as ausbausprache is appropriate here, but that's the best I could do.-- Prosfilaes 18:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
See: Glasovanje_o_zatvaranju_srpskohrvatske_Wikipedije Hope, many of you will contribute! :) -- Neoneo13 13:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this note to the introduction:
It's true, except that ISO-639-3 is still a draft not really included in ISO-639 yet. But all that means is that the Bosnian is sometimes considered part of the Serbo-Croatian language, just like many unrelated languages are sometimes considered Chinese (zh). It's too pendantic to include in the intro, and needs too much explanation for me to write it up for elsewhere, if the article even needs a note.-- Prosfilaes 19:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Which alphabet is the main in the Bosnian language? -- HolyRomanEmperor 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the existance of the language is determined by literature writen on that language, the Bosnian language can not be considered as such. A language needs poets, scientists, writers, esseyist using the language and they are acctually a groundwork of the language. If we take it as writen in this article that it is represented only by geographical position and name of the republic, then it can not be declared as a language, but a dialect. If there is no a difference between Serbian language spoken with ijekavian dialect and Bosnian as language, then it can not be considered more as dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.51.2 ( talk • contribs)
Why shouldn't it be mentioned that "Bosnian" is 100% mutually intelligible to speakers of "Croatian" and "Serbian"? I would have thought that such a fact would be of interest to a reader disinterested in petty politics. I don't dispute that "Bosnian" has been recognised as a language, but it should be made clear that any speaker of "Serbian" or "Croatian" can understand "Bosnian" as well as their "mother tongue". It's totally kafakesque that you could have three friends in some town in Bosnia speaking three different official languages to each other, and this utter absurdity should be noted on WP. -- estavisti 17:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
How can bosnian be spoken in sanjak when serbian is spoken inbetween the "bosnian" zone and the sanzak. -Lazar
Some sections read pretty awkwardly as English. AnonMoos 10:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thunderman, for the umpteenth time: check out the bs:Bosanski jezik, written by Bosniak editors. Check also out Dževad Jahić, Senahid Halilović, Ismail Palić: Gramatika bosanskoga jezika, Zenica 2000. Please don't link superficial "references" like online dictionaries posted on sites like home.freeweb.uk; I can do equally well with Google. No one denies that Latin is the primary alphabet; please read my edit. Regards, Duja 14:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Duja:
Well, look now in the Bosnian wikipedia.
And listen now:
Not a SINGLE bosnian language speaker uses the Cyrillic! Not a single one!
Understand? It is a fact as clear as that it was Hitler who started WW2. You cant say that Bosnian language uses the Cyrillic alphabeth because no one of the Bosnian language speakers uses the Cyrillic.
Understand? Thunderman 15:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Who cares about Mesa? He is a betrayer.
Anyway, Cyrillic is NOT official alphabet of the language. So I will revert that as soon I find a good source.
Just wait...
Pozdrav // Thunderman 15:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Okey, Duja.
It took me 30 sekunds, then I find a source. Parlament.ba, the bosnian parliament.
And I will keep waiting for tomorrow because I think I have edited 3 times now.
I will put on more sources. Be sure of that. Thunderman 15:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am just telling you the truth. Bosnian language DOESNT USE CYRILLIC.
As for the bosniak writers, you shouldnt take them serious. Just look at that bosniak user who said that the Srebrenica massacre was an alleged massacre. That is saying all...
Anyways... wait to tomorrow and I will put at least 5 sources. Thunderman 15:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
And, btw...
If you look at a government page, and searching for bosanski... then you will allways find the Latin alphabeth. That is also a source cause if it is like that, how the hell can Bosnian language in that case use Cyrillic?
Thunderman 16:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
@Thunderman:Cyrillic is equal with Latin alphabet by "Declaration for Bosnian Language" singed by all respected bosnian linguistics
@Duja: Are you saying, that Croats denied their literature written in "glagoljica", literature in cyrilic has nothing to do with cyrilic staying alive in bosnian.. Kroatika 15:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
ps. The Greek sign meant "No Parking" but tell the truth! You didn't know without checking!!! :)
I understand your point with the Greek language and their alphabet, but for Cyrillic or at least Serbian Cyrillic you can translate any text into Latin and still have the same meaning. Greeks do not have the same "opportunity". I mean a person could write English in Cyrillic but then we are just exaggerating.
For Republika Srpska, signs from late 2004 must have mandatory Latin inscriptions. My home town, Bosanska Dubica/Kozarska Dubica, is now in both Latin and Cyrillic. The first time I went after the war in 2001 it was a different story. The first noticeable change was the border crossing (my town is right on the Una river where the BiH-Hr border is) it was in Cyrillic and what was stated was "Welcome to Republika Srpska" (in Serbian in Cyrillic). Next, (all of you guys currently live in Europe, so will know what I am talking about) the town to town yellow signs were all in Cyrillic. Now all of them are in both Latin and Cyrillic.
For Greece, the maps are in the Greek letters, however, in BiH the maps one can buy at tourist shops are 97% Latin. The new highway, Corridor 5c, that is (finally) being built in BiH has signs in only Latin. This decision was primarily made by some European Commission. I mean if we look at SFRJ, as far as I know and as far as I have asked people, Latin was the primary script written in school, but Cyrillic was also thought. Both were valid scripts, but for many practical reasons people chose to write more in Latin than in Cyrillic. (This is true at least for BiH). I do not know how it was in Serbia.
Thank you, Vseferović 22:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't dispute for one minute that Latinic has been more successful than Cyrillic, I don't protest against the decision to gradually introduce it more. If we are listing town names and number of kilometres distance to reach them, it is fine. Text however is of no relevance to outsiders, as I said, "ПОЖАР!" is as unintelligible to Danes/Belgians as "POŽAR!", so if anyone believes that using Latinic will ease matters for outsiders, they kid themselves. As for Greeks not having the same "opportunity", you are 100% incorrect. All internationally recognised languages, in order to be recognised, are obliged to have a Romanised format, and Greek is no exception. There is such thing as Romanised Greek and it is used more widely than is often realised. If this were not the case, nobody would be able to travel through Western Europe because the police at Passport Control won't read their Passports, and people from a Latin-only-script country would not be able to write to non-Latin countries either. Addresses in Saudi Arabia, Japan, Georgia, Greece etc. are all displayed in their own transliterated forms for international purposes. The Westerner will not have a clue how to pronounce some of these; will be baffled by the consonant clusters and the purpose of the diacritical marks, but so long as he copies it as he reads it, the letter will be received. Greek roadsigns are more sophisticated than ours in the former Yugoslavia. Still, the transliteration of ΑΘΗΝΑ is ATHINA. This is a Greek-only variety; English call it Athens, we as you know call it 'Atina' (no voiceless dental fricative). You'll also find Romanised Greek on pop-folk albums, where tracks are listed. They say it is for international purposes, but, the listings are purely in Greek transliteration, with Greek preferences which include carrying over diacritics for stress and use of 'KH' or 'CH' for their 'X', but it is not a pronunciation guide. There is no indication that a 'D' between vowels in the voiced dental fricative and as you know, not all languages have that sound. So the notion of an alphabet being "more practical than another" is all in the mind. Finally, the reason we don't write English in Cyrillic is that there is simply no purpose. Cyrillic applies to the second largest number of languages after the Roman alphabet, and like the Roman alphabet varieties between languages, Cyrillic is no exception, the farther away you go, the less we make sense of it until in some languages, you barely notice that it is based on Cyrillic. English English is said to have 44-46 phonemes depending on dialectal choice, and to create a Cyrillic for these sounds from what already exists in over 100 languages would be child's play. Evlekis 03:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
aaah! :) Yes sorry! To write Greek in Latinic would be unprecedented. It would be folly to sacrifce your own alphabet for one which is directly descended from it. Greek however, like English, is a demotic language: regulated by the people. No academy there is nationally recognised to implement central preferences. Because of Wikipedia's neutral policy and NOR system, we are all forced to take the descriptive approach to any language, which suits me fine because that is how I am anyhow. As such, using Latinic for Greek cannot be deemed incorrect because, as in Serbian, it is ultimately the choice of the writer. But yes, if someone publishes a book or newspaper in Athens written soley in Latinic, it would raise a few eyebrows. Greek just hasn't been embroiled in the same recent politics as Serbian: ie.linked for decades with another language; beaurocratic measures constantly taken which suppress your writing system, and finally the inevitible: peoples own decision to use one script over the other in a bid to forge closer ties to high profile cultures. Just for your own interest Kserovic, other languages which have been written in more than one alphabet for similar reasons are Turkish (Arabic/Latinic), Albanian (same), Georgian (own/Cyrillic), Armenian (own/Cyrillic), Mongolian (own/Cyrillic), Chinese (own/Pinyin {Latinic}), and a host of others. I now see what you were trying to say, so thanks. Evlekis 09:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
According to this, there are (2004 estimate) 4,000,000 speakers of Bosnian. -- PaxEquilibrium 18:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
How is Bosnian different from Serbo-Croatian? Which alphabet is it written in? This article needs work. -- Zoe
I've added some info on Bosnian language, using material from Herceg Bosna site (which, by the way, I'm authorised to do).
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
I know it's not a common practice on Wikipedia to delete stuff but... I propose the following rewrite of the present, rather too detailed writeup. -- Vedran 22:52, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Bosnian language is one of the standard written versions of a language that used to be known as Serbo-Croatian language. The other two versions are Croatian language and Serbian language. Latin alphabet is primarily used, although cyrillic is also specified.
Bosnian language is spoken primarily by Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina and elsewhere. The estimated number of speakers is 4 million.
The Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina lists Bosnian language as one of three languages officially spoken in this country, the other two being Croatian and Serbian. Bosnian Croats and Serbs use these two languages respectively. The ISO 639 standard specifies that Bosnian should be denoted with acronyms bs and bos.
Why Bosnian?
Bosnian language originated mostly as a reaction to the rising nationalisms in neighboring nations. For understandable reasons, Bosniaks didn't see fit to label their language as Serbian, Croatian or Serbo-Croatian. Most Bosniaks believe that it is a single language with three names. However, divergence of language norms is gradually making it harder for their speakers to understand the people on the wrong side of the fence.
As opposed to other norms, Bosnian mostly remained faithful to the old neoshtokavian standard, with notable exception of preservation of letter h (in words such as lahko /easy/ and historija /history/), a larger assortment of turcisms and a few original inventions (treating uredu /allright/ as a single word, ?etverica /four men/ instead of ?etvorica etc.)
However, most Bosnian linguists belong to the school of thought that claims that language is a living thing that cannot be standardised and that grammars and dictionaries should merely record the factual reality. Thus, where Serbian and Croatian disagree, Bosnian typically allows both variants and sometimes offers a third one. Only ambiguities are resolved, usually preferring the Croatian solution. This, in linguists' opinion, promotes "richness" of Bosnian language.
Bosnian could best be described as an ex-Serbo-Croatian meta-language or even anti-language - considering definitions of "language" as used by Croatian and Serbian linguists.
The name controversy
Bosniak/Bosnian dualism has resulted in a similar controversy with the name of language. Indeed, historical documents frequently mention Bosnian language, but almost never a "Bosniak language". The fallacy of using the name Bosnian for a language not spoken by all Bosnians is the same as the one of using the name Croatian or Serbian for a language also spoken by people that are not Croats nor Serbs. Of course, the usual suspects that deny this name are the same ones that on other occasions deny the Bosniak national name.
External resources
Centres of institutional research:
Major linguistical publications:
Other useful links:
Maknuti ovu smijesnu sliku "Povelje Kulina bana", koja je stripovska preslika izvornika na kaligrafsku latinicu puckoskolskoga tipa. Nevjerojatno kakvi debilizmi ovdje prolaze. Mir Harven 12:44, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Translation to English, since this is, after all, the English Wikipedia: This ludicrous picture of the Kulin ban Charter needs to be removed, as it is a comic-book copy of the original transcribed into calligraphic Latin that looks like it was made by a child from grade school. It's incredible what kind of idiocy gets by here. MH will correct me if necessary :) -- Joy [shallot] 22:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I believe the move of Bosnian language to Bosniak language is nationalist POV. The language is normally called "Bosnian" in english, and "bosanski" in Bosnian, not "bošnjački". I tried to undo the move, by first moving the new Bosnian language (with the redirect) out of the way to bosanski jezik, so that I could move bosniak language back, but it didn't allow me to do that. So I restored the redirects on "Bosnian language" to the original text (which is still at "Bosniak language". But it should be the other way around. The major text should be at "Bosnian language". "Bosniak" can be a redirect. "Bosanski jezik" should be deleted, as it was intended to be a temporary page. - Key45 18:14, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've restored it. I haven't seen "Bosniak language" used as often as "Bosnian language" so it should stay as is merely based on real-world use. The dilemma regarding the implications of the name can stay in the article text. -- Joy [shallot] 22:11, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"In the days of Communist Yugoslavia the lexis was Serbianized [my comment: huh?] but the Latin script became dominant; the official name was Serbo-Croatian. After the collapse of Yugoslavia Bosniaks remained the sole inheritors of the Serbo-Croatian hybrid [my comment: hybrid? What hybrid?] in Bosnian variant and are trying to reshape it, under the new name of Bosnian, into a distinct national/ethnic standard language."
Exactly, the politicians and "linguists" are reshaping the language the ordinary people speak! Under a new name, an' all. What a brave world we live in!
Also, what is this "serbianisation" of the lexis during the communist era? Something that was recently imagined? Perhaps by Haris Silajdzic? Lol!
Also, another issue. Quote:
"The Bosniaks' national emancipation lagged behind that of the Serbs and Croats, and since denominational, rather than cultural or linguistic issues played the pivotal role, a Bosnian language project didn't arouse much interest or support."
Haha! A "project", huh? Not an evolutionary language that's been passed down and modified by each generation? Well...
However, this national emacipation of the Bosniaks, that is referred to in the article. How long did it lag behind the Serbian and Croatian national emancipations? A century, perhaps?
What did the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks call themselves back then (in the 19th century)?
The truth is the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks used to consider themselves during the Ottoman occupation as "Turks", since they considered their religion, Islam, as "Turkish". The Christian Serbs and Croats called them Turks as well. And another thing, when the Serbs were trying to liberate Bosnia in the 1870s, the the ancestors of the modern-day Bosniaks did not follow the Serbs but oppose them, siding with the imperial occupiers for religious reasons.
I believe that it was since 1878, when Bosnia and Herzergovina had new imperial masters to occupy it, that the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Christians (Serbs and Croats, of course) started to interact with each other, more than they did during the centuries of Ottoman rule.
Alan.
This article cannot be used as a neutral, it's filled with nationalism like feelings, and I would like if moderators would note that.
If bosnian is a language where does it derive from. this is not listed. i see it is slavic but if the bosnian people all of a sudden popped up on the map and they have their own language now that is basically serbian... how could that be considered bosnian? it is a different dialect of serbian. serbs in bosnia speak the same, it is just like the english spoken in new york, to california, to alabama are all different. you have bubbler-water fountaint, you guys - you guuuuys. all the other weird california words, now does new york or chicago get their own language because of small differences, what about the huge spanish influence in san diego and so-cal, is that now officially spanglish? I think this is a stupid article with no factual information just a bunch of nationalistic turkish feelings, i mean come on bosnian dictionary and all that other jive you speak of is ridiculous. i say we erase this post and i want to question the neutrality.
However, the present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbia and Montenegro has been very anti-Bosnian, and the faliure to recognize the existence of Bosnian language is not surprising. Both Croatian and Serbian nationalists are very unlikely to give any practical recognition to the existence of the Bosnian language, although they officially do recognize it.
This paragraph is removed because: -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a relevant study about "present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbian and Montenegro". I can say that it is not true. Croats supports a lot of Bosniak emigration (in Croatia) and both Bosniak national parties are in Serbian government. (I.e., I don't see any anti-Bosnian political climate.) -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"is not surprising" is clear political propaganda in the context. -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The information "what SR. and HR nationalists think and like" is not relevant inside of the article about Bosnian language. More relevant story is said before (about what do think RS and Serbian authorities as well as what do think Serbian and Croatian linguists). -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed this sentece, temporary:
"However, the present post-war political climate in both Croatia and Serbia and Montenegro has been very anti-Bosnian, and the faliure to recognize the existence of Bosnian language is not surprising."
I will try to get you some proofs and to quote Natasha Kandic or others Serbian intelectuals which will confirm, that above sentence is correct. And I will quote war criminals like Radovan Karadic, Vojislav Seselj, Radoslav Brdjanin, Milorad Dodik, Biljana Plavsic etc which will support that Serbian and Croatian nationalist dont recognize Bosnian language. This information is as relevant as the information about Serbian and Croatian linguists, because most of them are nationalists and they sholdnt talk about Bosnian language at all, because Bosnian linguists dont talk abot Serbian language. Emir Arven 20:16, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
As I said before, I will put some statemens here that will confirm the above sentence.
Serbian minister Vladan Batic's statement
DHSS vice president Zivojin Stepic said that according to information that DHSS had Ratko Mladic was in Belgrade.
'He is moving from military objects to flat in Cerak or to flat in New Belgrade.
DHSS president Vladan Batic also said that Mladic was in Belgrade. 'Authorities in Belgrade know that', Batic said.
This is very anti-Bosnian policy, because Ratko Mladic is the one responsible for Genocide in Srebrenica (Bosnian and Herzegovina). Emir Arven 20:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I will just quote Louise Branson an editorial writer for USA TODAY. Serb nationalism
Serb nationalism
Before the wars, in the 1980s, the Serb capital Belgrade was the cosmopolitan Paris of Eastern Europe. It is now a dreary backwater, left behind as neighbors sprout modern shopping malls, McDonald's and skyscrapers and join Western clubs from NATO to the European Union. The Serb mafiosos and gangsters remain a nationalistic, intimidating force. Despite the efforts of some human rights campaigners and hard-hitting media outlets, nationalist sentiment still runs high. In a Serb opinion poll in May, more than half denied the Srebrenica massacre even took place.
Last month, however, Serbs got a chance to break out of the denial. Serb TV broadcast a video of part of the massacre. In it, Serb paramilitaries — the "Scorpions" — pull six battered, emaciated men from a truck, hands tied behind their backs. At least three are shot at close range. A Serb Orthodox priest blesses their actions against the "infidels." It was the Serbs' first incontrovertible evidence that they, not just rogue Bosnian Serb "cousins," were complicit: The Scorpions, as other paramilitary groups, were under the direct command of the Serb police.
The fact that it took a full 10 years for the video to emerge is already testimony to the resistance. The film was first played at The Hague tribunal, where it was sent by Serb human rights campaigner Natasha Kandic, who has long been subject to death threats. The Hague has, until now, largely enabled Serbs' denial. Milosevic's trial is being carried out far away, by foreigners, encouraging many to feel they, too, are being victimized. But the videotaped evidence cannot be so easily dismissed.
There are signs it might provide the needed psychological jolt out of the surreal world that Milosevic — much as Hitler — constructed. His nationalist propaganda denied inconvenient realities — though the truth was known.
Serbian men, as the Scorpions, were drafted to fight in the wars, often going with gusto. They knew what was happening, bringing information back to families and friends. When I visited Serb homes near Srebrenica months after the massacre, people shrugged about what might have happened to the "disappeared." But their exchanged glances told a different story. Police cars pulled up at the houses after I left, suggesting an official effort to suppress any breaking of the collective coverup.
Biljana Plavšić a Serb intellectual and professor, the highest-ranking Serbian politician from the former Yugoslavia pleaded guilty to a single charge of crimes against humanity. Plavšić's statement repeated her admission of guilt. It said she had refused to believe stories of atrocities against Bosniaks and Croatians and accepted without question the claims that Serbs were fighting for survival:
"I have now ... accepted that many thousands of innocent people were the victims of organized, systematic efforts from the territory claimed by Serbs...The knowledge that I'm responsible for such human suffering and for soiling the character of my people will always be with me."
Statements by Jovan Rašković a Serb intellectual, founder of the Serbian Democratic Party of Croatia:
"I feel responsible because I made the preparations for this war, even if not the military preparations. If I hadn’t created this emotional strain in the Serbian people, nothing would have happened... My party and I lit the fuse of Serbian nationalism not only in Croatia but everywhere else in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It’s impossible to imagine an SDP (Serbian Democratic Party) in Bosnia-Herzegovina or a Mr. Karadzic in power without our influence. We have driven this people and we have given it an identity. I have repeated again and again to this people that it comes from heaven, not earth."
Statement by Radovan Karadžić an intellectual, co-founder of Republika Srpska and its first president, alluded to the origins of this ideology on March 4, 1992 to the Bosnian Parliament:
"...the road to which you want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina is the same highway of hell which Slovenia and Croatia took. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslims into annihilation... Muslims can't defend themselves if there is war here"...
So, you are trying to say that Biljana Plavsic, Jovan Raskovic and Radovan Karadzic are (were) citizens of Serbia and Montenegro, not Bosnia and Herzegovina (Croatia)? -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, write something better about Bosancica... -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 15:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed this part, I have already explained why (script is not language, it is heritage) Emir Arven 16:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC):
"Bosnian Cyrillic is an extinct Cyrillic script from where the bosnian language is descending,Bosnian Cyrillic had been used in Bosnia and Herzegovina by bosniak bogomils. It's name in Bosnian is bosančica. The origin of the bosnian language is, when looking at Bosnian Cyrillic, the oldest of all three counting bosnian, serbian and croatian. And it may very well be thought that croatian and serbian developed from bosnian."
And I replaced this with the sentace:
Bosnians have also used script, that was less standardized, so it had more versions and names: bosančica, Bosnian Cyrillic (means the script that was originally from Bosnia), begovica (used by Bosniak nobility). Bosniaks have also used arabic script.
Please see the new page at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic), aimed at
— Michael Z. 2005-12-9 20:36 Z
The line
is transparently bogus. A significant percentage of linguists have no opinion on the matter, not knowing the first thing about Bosnian, and two different idiolects are likely not to be fully mutally intelligible. Moreover, it's simply not true; according to the ausbausprache page, "Two language forms that allow easy mutual communication are regarded as two different languages by sociolinguists if they are each an Ausbausprache according to this definition." I don't know if using a term such as ausbausprache is appropriate here, but that's the best I could do.-- Prosfilaes 18:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
See: Glasovanje_o_zatvaranju_srpskohrvatske_Wikipedije Hope, many of you will contribute! :) -- Neoneo13 13:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this note to the introduction:
It's true, except that ISO-639-3 is still a draft not really included in ISO-639 yet. But all that means is that the Bosnian is sometimes considered part of the Serbo-Croatian language, just like many unrelated languages are sometimes considered Chinese (zh). It's too pendantic to include in the intro, and needs too much explanation for me to write it up for elsewhere, if the article even needs a note.-- Prosfilaes 19:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Which alphabet is the main in the Bosnian language? -- HolyRomanEmperor 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the existance of the language is determined by literature writen on that language, the Bosnian language can not be considered as such. A language needs poets, scientists, writers, esseyist using the language and they are acctually a groundwork of the language. If we take it as writen in this article that it is represented only by geographical position and name of the republic, then it can not be declared as a language, but a dialect. If there is no a difference between Serbian language spoken with ijekavian dialect and Bosnian as language, then it can not be considered more as dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.51.2 ( talk • contribs)
Why shouldn't it be mentioned that "Bosnian" is 100% mutually intelligible to speakers of "Croatian" and "Serbian"? I would have thought that such a fact would be of interest to a reader disinterested in petty politics. I don't dispute that "Bosnian" has been recognised as a language, but it should be made clear that any speaker of "Serbian" or "Croatian" can understand "Bosnian" as well as their "mother tongue". It's totally kafakesque that you could have three friends in some town in Bosnia speaking three different official languages to each other, and this utter absurdity should be noted on WP. -- estavisti 17:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
How can bosnian be spoken in sanjak when serbian is spoken inbetween the "bosnian" zone and the sanzak. -Lazar
Some sections read pretty awkwardly as English. AnonMoos 10:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thunderman, for the umpteenth time: check out the bs:Bosanski jezik, written by Bosniak editors. Check also out Dževad Jahić, Senahid Halilović, Ismail Palić: Gramatika bosanskoga jezika, Zenica 2000. Please don't link superficial "references" like online dictionaries posted on sites like home.freeweb.uk; I can do equally well with Google. No one denies that Latin is the primary alphabet; please read my edit. Regards, Duja 14:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Duja:
Well, look now in the Bosnian wikipedia.
And listen now:
Not a SINGLE bosnian language speaker uses the Cyrillic! Not a single one!
Understand? It is a fact as clear as that it was Hitler who started WW2. You cant say that Bosnian language uses the Cyrillic alphabeth because no one of the Bosnian language speakers uses the Cyrillic.
Understand? Thunderman 15:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Who cares about Mesa? He is a betrayer.
Anyway, Cyrillic is NOT official alphabet of the language. So I will revert that as soon I find a good source.
Just wait...
Pozdrav // Thunderman 15:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Okey, Duja.
It took me 30 sekunds, then I find a source. Parlament.ba, the bosnian parliament.
And I will keep waiting for tomorrow because I think I have edited 3 times now.
I will put on more sources. Be sure of that. Thunderman 15:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am just telling you the truth. Bosnian language DOESNT USE CYRILLIC.
As for the bosniak writers, you shouldnt take them serious. Just look at that bosniak user who said that the Srebrenica massacre was an alleged massacre. That is saying all...
Anyways... wait to tomorrow and I will put at least 5 sources. Thunderman 15:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
And, btw...
If you look at a government page, and searching for bosanski... then you will allways find the Latin alphabeth. That is also a source cause if it is like that, how the hell can Bosnian language in that case use Cyrillic?
Thunderman 16:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
@Thunderman:Cyrillic is equal with Latin alphabet by "Declaration for Bosnian Language" singed by all respected bosnian linguistics
@Duja: Are you saying, that Croats denied their literature written in "glagoljica", literature in cyrilic has nothing to do with cyrilic staying alive in bosnian.. Kroatika 15:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
ps. The Greek sign meant "No Parking" but tell the truth! You didn't know without checking!!! :)
I understand your point with the Greek language and their alphabet, but for Cyrillic or at least Serbian Cyrillic you can translate any text into Latin and still have the same meaning. Greeks do not have the same "opportunity". I mean a person could write English in Cyrillic but then we are just exaggerating.
For Republika Srpska, signs from late 2004 must have mandatory Latin inscriptions. My home town, Bosanska Dubica/Kozarska Dubica, is now in both Latin and Cyrillic. The first time I went after the war in 2001 it was a different story. The first noticeable change was the border crossing (my town is right on the Una river where the BiH-Hr border is) it was in Cyrillic and what was stated was "Welcome to Republika Srpska" (in Serbian in Cyrillic). Next, (all of you guys currently live in Europe, so will know what I am talking about) the town to town yellow signs were all in Cyrillic. Now all of them are in both Latin and Cyrillic.
For Greece, the maps are in the Greek letters, however, in BiH the maps one can buy at tourist shops are 97% Latin. The new highway, Corridor 5c, that is (finally) being built in BiH has signs in only Latin. This decision was primarily made by some European Commission. I mean if we look at SFRJ, as far as I know and as far as I have asked people, Latin was the primary script written in school, but Cyrillic was also thought. Both were valid scripts, but for many practical reasons people chose to write more in Latin than in Cyrillic. (This is true at least for BiH). I do not know how it was in Serbia.
Thank you, Vseferović 22:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't dispute for one minute that Latinic has been more successful than Cyrillic, I don't protest against the decision to gradually introduce it more. If we are listing town names and number of kilometres distance to reach them, it is fine. Text however is of no relevance to outsiders, as I said, "ПОЖАР!" is as unintelligible to Danes/Belgians as "POŽAR!", so if anyone believes that using Latinic will ease matters for outsiders, they kid themselves. As for Greeks not having the same "opportunity", you are 100% incorrect. All internationally recognised languages, in order to be recognised, are obliged to have a Romanised format, and Greek is no exception. There is such thing as Romanised Greek and it is used more widely than is often realised. If this were not the case, nobody would be able to travel through Western Europe because the police at Passport Control won't read their Passports, and people from a Latin-only-script country would not be able to write to non-Latin countries either. Addresses in Saudi Arabia, Japan, Georgia, Greece etc. are all displayed in their own transliterated forms for international purposes. The Westerner will not have a clue how to pronounce some of these; will be baffled by the consonant clusters and the purpose of the diacritical marks, but so long as he copies it as he reads it, the letter will be received. Greek roadsigns are more sophisticated than ours in the former Yugoslavia. Still, the transliteration of ΑΘΗΝΑ is ATHINA. This is a Greek-only variety; English call it Athens, we as you know call it 'Atina' (no voiceless dental fricative). You'll also find Romanised Greek on pop-folk albums, where tracks are listed. They say it is for international purposes, but, the listings are purely in Greek transliteration, with Greek preferences which include carrying over diacritics for stress and use of 'KH' or 'CH' for their 'X', but it is not a pronunciation guide. There is no indication that a 'D' between vowels in the voiced dental fricative and as you know, not all languages have that sound. So the notion of an alphabet being "more practical than another" is all in the mind. Finally, the reason we don't write English in Cyrillic is that there is simply no purpose. Cyrillic applies to the second largest number of languages after the Roman alphabet, and like the Roman alphabet varieties between languages, Cyrillic is no exception, the farther away you go, the less we make sense of it until in some languages, you barely notice that it is based on Cyrillic. English English is said to have 44-46 phonemes depending on dialectal choice, and to create a Cyrillic for these sounds from what already exists in over 100 languages would be child's play. Evlekis 03:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
aaah! :) Yes sorry! To write Greek in Latinic would be unprecedented. It would be folly to sacrifce your own alphabet for one which is directly descended from it. Greek however, like English, is a demotic language: regulated by the people. No academy there is nationally recognised to implement central preferences. Because of Wikipedia's neutral policy and NOR system, we are all forced to take the descriptive approach to any language, which suits me fine because that is how I am anyhow. As such, using Latinic for Greek cannot be deemed incorrect because, as in Serbian, it is ultimately the choice of the writer. But yes, if someone publishes a book or newspaper in Athens written soley in Latinic, it would raise a few eyebrows. Greek just hasn't been embroiled in the same recent politics as Serbian: ie.linked for decades with another language; beaurocratic measures constantly taken which suppress your writing system, and finally the inevitible: peoples own decision to use one script over the other in a bid to forge closer ties to high profile cultures. Just for your own interest Kserovic, other languages which have been written in more than one alphabet for similar reasons are Turkish (Arabic/Latinic), Albanian (same), Georgian (own/Cyrillic), Armenian (own/Cyrillic), Mongolian (own/Cyrillic), Chinese (own/Pinyin {Latinic}), and a host of others. I now see what you were trying to say, so thanks. Evlekis 09:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
According to this, there are (2004 estimate) 4,000,000 speakers of Bosnian. -- PaxEquilibrium 18:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)