This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The article is a bit Eurocentric, especially in its discussion of women in science and contemporary politics, as well as the images it shows. Greater diversity of women represented, as well as discussion of the intersections between ethnicity/class/religion and gender, would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.107.125 ( talk) 10:23, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Suggestion: Use an image depicting several women in a collage (see [carnivora]). -- 169.231.181.119 ( talk) 17:02, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I've reached this article to read about how hormonal differences between women and men lead to differences in world-view between the sexes. But again, found nothing. Why all articles about sex are totally framed in anatomy + politics? I need objective information, from the Biological and Psychological Sciences, not feminist propaganda.-- MisterSanderson ( talk) 23:21, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
"As in cases without two sexes, such as species that reproduce asexually, the gender-neutral appearance is closer to female than to male". Shouldn't it be "such as species that *can* reproduce asexually"? If a species reproduces asexually then ostensibly it has no sex, in which case there's no male/female to which the embryo (appearing a sentence before that) can be similar. -- 178.8.24.240 ( talk) 11:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Not a forum, just taking up space. Drmies ( talk) 18:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
Gender stereotyping According to the United Nations of Human Rights, they mentioned that the states are required to defend women’s rights against any gender stereotypes discrimination. Also, the United Nation of Human Rights are obligated to protect women’s public and private life against any stereotype that women may encounter. [1] The United Nations of Human Rights mentioned the following, “A gender stereotype is a generalized view or preconception about attributes or characteristics, or the roles that are or ought to be possessed by, or performed by women and men. A gender stereotype is harmful when it limits women’s and men’s capacity to develop their personal abilities, pursue their professional careers and make choices about their lives. [2] In addition, the articles explains that a gender stereotype is caused by a general idea or thought that has to do with women’s qualities, characteristics or roles that are achieved by women in this case. Also, such gender stereotype can be damaging when it decreases a women’s ability to make progress in either personal or professional setting. [3] The United Nations of Human Rights also explain that, “Harmful stereotypes can be both hostile/negative (e.g., women are irrational) or seemingly benign (e.g., women are nurturing). For example, the fact that child care responsibilities often fall exclusively on women is based on the latter stereotype. [4] “Gender stereotyping refers to the practice of ascribing to an individual woman or man specific attributes, characteristics, or roles by reason only of her or his membership in the social group of women or men. Gender stereotyping is wrongful when it results in a violation or violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms.” [5] “Example of wrongful gender stereotyping are the failure to criminalize marital rape based on societal perception of women as the sexual property of men, and the failure to effectively investigate, prosecute and sentence sexual violence against women based on, e.g., the stereotype that women should protect themselves from sexual violence by dressing and behaving modestly” [6] “Gender stereotypes compounded and intersecting with other stereotypes have a disproportionate negative impact on certain groups of women, such as women from minority or indigenous groups, women with disabilities, women from lower caste groups or with lower economic status, migrant women, etc.” [7] “Wrongful gender stereotyping is a frequent cause of discrimination against women and a contributing factor in violations of a vast array of rights such as the right to health, adequate standard of living, education, marriage and family relations, work, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, political participation and representation, effective remedy, and freedom from gender-based violence. “ [8] Violence against women “The Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women defines “violence against women” as “any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or psychological harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or private life.” “ [9] “It has taken decades of struggle by the women’s rights movement to persuade the international community to view gender-based violence against women as a human rights concern and not just as a private matter in which the State should not interfere. In 1992, the CEDAW Committee in its General Recommendation No. 19, asserted that violence against women is a form of discrimination, directed towards a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately. This violence seriously inhibits women’s ability to enjoy rights and freedoms on a basis of equality with men. In December 1993, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, recognized that violence against women violates women's rights and fundamental freedoms and called on states and the international community to work toward the eradication of violence against women. The same year, the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action recognized that the elimination of violence against women in public and private life is a human rights obligation. The then Commission on Human Rights condemned gender-based violence for the first time in 1994 and the same year appointed a Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences. The 1995 UN World Conference on Women held in Beijing reaffirmed the conclusions of the Vienna Conference, listing violence against women as one of the critical areas of concern. In 2017, the CEDAW Committee, marking 25th anniversary of its General Recommendation No. 19, further elaborated international standards on gender-based violence against women in its General Recommendation No. 35. In General Recommendation No. 35, the CEDAW Committee recognized that the prohibition of gender-based violence against women has evolved into a principle of customary international law, binding all States.” [10] “Framing gender-based violence against women as a human rights violation implies an important conceptual shift. It means recognizing that women are not exposed to violence by accident, or because of an in-born vulnerability. Instead, violence is the result of structural, deep-rooted discrimination which the state has an obligation to address. Preventing and addressing gender-based violence against women is therefore not a charitable act. It is a legal and moral obligation requiring legislative, administrative and institutional measures and reforms and the eradication of gender stereotypes which condone or perpetuate gender-based violence against women and underpin the structural inequality of women with men.” “The Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women and the CEDAW General Recommendation No. 35 provide for the concept of due diligence obligation of States. Under this obligation, States have a duty to take positive action to prevent and protect women from violence, punish perpetrators of violent acts and compensate victims of violence. The principle of due diligence is crucial as it provides the missing link between human rights obligations and acts of private persons.” [11] “Considerable progress has been made in many countries of the world. Comprehensive legal frameworks and specific institutions and policies have been put in place to promote women’s rights, prevent and protect women from violence. There is growing awareness of the nature and impact of violence against women around the world. Innovative and promising practices are reported every year to the General Assembly, the Human Rights Council and the Commission on the Status of Women, including in the areas of investigations, prosecution and provision of services.” [12] “Yet, the figures on prevalence of violence against women are alarming. According to data by the World Health Organization, one third of women globally experience violence at least once in their lifetime. There are still obstacles to women’s access to justice, resulting into widespread impunity for violence. Considerable efforts are still required to promote women’s and girls’ autonomy and choice and to ensure the realization of the right of women and girls to a life free from violence.” [13] Avasqu71 ( talk) 05:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC) References
|
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).Why hasn't this page been fixed yet? With such a topic as huge as "woman" there shouldn't be so much jargon, politics and new age "ideas" while being written at a high school level. The article should be neutral and devoid of bias. The opening to the article should not have anything that is not about a female human being. I have read through pretty much all the comments on the talk page and I don't understand why this is not resolved. Transgendered individuals make up less than
.05% of the population, not to mention transwomen making up even less from that number. Why is the entire side of the page is covered in "women in society", "feminism" and "feminist philosophy" page links? Come on, what is this? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a political rally. The first thing when you think about women is not feminism and feminist philosophy, get them out of here.
"A woman is a female human being. The term woman is usually reserved for an adult, with girl being the usual term for a female child or adolescent. The term woman is also sometimes used to identify a female human, regardless of age, as in phrases such as "women's rights"."
Why is this phrase "women's rights" here? Is this all women are about? Meanwhile the men's page says "men's basketball." This can be changed to "women's health", "women's volleyball", "women's section", I mean, literally ANYTHING else.
"Women with typical genetic development are usually capable of giving birth from puberty until menopause."
This is poorly written. Is it necessary to insinuate about infertility in the first intro to the page? Infertility/difficulty carrying to term effect 10% of women ages 15-44. This stat does not include the top reason why women become infertile which is that they wait too long and their egg reserves diminishes severely after age 32. Again... WHY is this in the introduction to this article? I think everyone knows that not every single woman on the planet is capable of getting pregnant and giving birth, there is no need to handle this with kid gloves.
"There are also trans women (those who have a male sex assignment that does not align with their gender identity),[1] and intersex women (those born with sexual characteristics that do not fit typical notions of male or female)."
Why are transwomen being mentioned in the intro to this article? A woman is a female human by wikipedia's own admission--why are transwomen who are biologically male mentioned in an article about biologically female humans? Trans and intersex individuals make up such a tiny, minute portion of the population and should not be mentioned here. They do not hold equal validity in an article that is about female humans. This sentence should not be here at all and the wording of it uses lingo and buzzwords a la Vox or Slate. Transwomen are not "assigned" male; the doctor visually observes a baby's genitalia and uses the word corresponding to said genitalia. In essence, if you have a penis you are male and if you have a vagina you are female. Sure, there are anomaly's... but this doesn't belong here. The word "Assign" makes it seem like the doctor gives the baby it's sex because of his or her own personal choice or feelings, like "Hmmm, having assigned female in a while, let's do that!" If the baby chooses to transition later in life that has absolutely nothing to do with what the doctor, all the nurses and the parents saw with their own eyeballs at the birth. It's as simple as that. This line needs to be removed completely. It's inaccurate and personal feelings do not belong in an encyclopedia. AikaNikolas ( talk) 08:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I know people are probably sick of talking about this element of the blurb, but I feel like the following quoted segment should be made more clear:
There are also trans women (those who have a male sex assignment that does not align with their gender identity), [1] and intersex women (those born with sexual characteristics that do not fit typical notions of male or female).
Specfically, the second half (regarding "intersex women") seems to be using "women" to refer to self-identified gender, not sex, although the parenthetical does not indicate this in any direct way (you could argue it indicates it indirectly since it mentions a deviation in sexual characteristics). Looking through the intersex article, I can't find any instance of the word "woman" that isn't referring to sex, so I don't think there's some 3rd usage I'm overlooking. Simply put, the parenthetical is simply defining what an intersex person is, not an intersex woman, which does not match the first half of the sentence (corresponding to trans women).
If the mention of "intersex women" is simply an additional nod to the usage of the term "woman" to refer to self-identified gender instead of sex, then I feel like there is a clearer way to present that, possibly simply by adding some kind of preface, like so:
The term "woman" is also sometimes used to refer to one's self-identified gender, such as with trans women (those who [...] do not fit typical notions of male or female but identify as women).
This makes the purpose of the sentence (inclusion of the use of the word as a gender identity) more immediately clear, keeps the two topics of the sentence in agreement in terms of format, and makes the last parenthetical directly relevant to the article (current version is not). That said, what I proposed here still needs some obvious work. Notably, the version of the preface I've provided is somewhat weasel-wordy in its use of "sometimes".
Honestly, I think the answer is that the exact wording I'm providing for the preface is wholly undesirable, but the general structure is something that should probably be used. However, I don't know what specific wording would actually be good for this first portion. Whatever wording is used, it should be specific and supported by reliable sources. Even the current wording ("There are also[...]") is honestly awful.
Perhaps the most concrete claim possible looks something like this (very rough):
Within some social sciences, the term "woman" is [...]. This usage has also been adopted by ___a group you can reliably make this claim about___ (new source goes here).
Thoughts? First, on whether or not we can agree that the current sentence is poorly done in the ways I've mentioned, and second, on what I've proposed to replace it. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 02:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
References
"Women are twice as likely as men to use emoticons in text messages" [1] Benjamin ( talk) 16:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I do still think there should be one article summarizing all the differences between men and women. Here's another example: In women, the index and ring finger tend to be the same length, whereas men's ring finger tends to be longer. [2] Benjamin ( talk) 11:22, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Botticelli's The Birth of Venus is a very poor lead image for this page.
I see that there used to be a gallery that was removed in Feb 2016 following this RFC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images about galleries of large groups of people (which arose from an RfC here, now in the archives here), which arose from a prior RfC about ethnic groups" that led to MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES. There was an effort to repeal MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES here in June 2016 that failed.
So OK, no gallery. There has been no discussion here since then.
In the article, we've had:
So the Venus is just a "classier" version of the "bust", "fitness model", and actress pictures, emphasizing sexuality/beauty ideals, and this is not a good thing. I'm removing the image, leaving the infobox symbol image at the top. I very much doubt that an RfC would provide consensus for Venus or the similar images as the lead image on this page. Jytdog ( talk) 14:11, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me that the new image (woman mechanic) is the same problem as was identified with the original image, just in a different way. If the original image emphasized outdated and west-centric ideals of female beauty, then this new image emphasizes (also west-centric) ideals of modern feminism, which is not necessarily a point of view that I disagree with, but it is still a specific conceptualization of "woman" and not a universally applicable representation, and Wikipedia should aim for neutrality. Since the article for "man" uses the image from the Sistine Chapel of "The Birth of Adam", then why not use for this article the image from the Sistine Chapel of " The Creation of Eve"? (The image could potentially be cropped to show only Eve.) That seems the most logical option, to me. Or, alternatively, perhaps keeping the "woman mechanic" image, but along with a couple other images showing other conceptualizations of "women", such as one more traditional western conceptualization, a non-western woman, maybe even a trans-woman? (unless that would be perceived as violating "no ethnic galleries") Or, as a third alternative, one single photograph of a woman who is portrayed in a way that is neither, in traditional conceptualizations of the terms, feminine nor masculine? Vontheri ( talk) 21:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Apologies for bringing up the issue of lead image again, as I see it was discussed above a few months ago. But the lead image is kind of important because it's the image that pops up in previews and some aggregators and such. I was reading something that wikilinked " Man and Woman" and I moused over the links to see the WP:Tools/Navigation popups, and the lead image for Man is a picture of a man, specifically Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam. The lead image for Woman is a diagram of the female reproductive system. These two pictures communicated to me that "man" is a male (complete) human being, and "woman" is a vagina. I didn't want to change it unilaterally (specifically, I didn't want to revert this edit without asking first). Is it just me? Leviv ich 23:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Some additional possibilities? Leviv ich 04:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
How about this? A beautiful work of art that's 1. Stylized enough to feel somewhat universal 2. Not depicting anyone specific. 3. From a culture that's not over-represented on Wikipedia (it's a fresco from a Minoan palace.) 4. Not sexy or male-gazey.
WanderingWanda ( talk) 05:00, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Regarding which woman, what about the panracial line drawing of a woman that is etched onto a gold plaque being carried by the Pioneer 10 spacecraft, and which is the first object constructed by humans to leave the solar system? This image, along with the companion image of a man and some technical information about its origin, was the first explicit, concrete interstellar communication attempt by humans, and is intended to convey information about all humankind to other beings, in case it is ever intercepted by extraterrestrial life. Mathglot ( talk) 09:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Levivich: Sorry to say this but I hate that picture. I feel like it is defining a woman by her form of wage labor, and suggesting that a woman has more value when she performs traditionally male roles. I understand we didn't have much to work with, and I appreciate all your effort. I would like something like this as an example(it says all rights reserved): [3] I discussed criteria I felt was important for this lead image in the Man article here: [4] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 18:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Levivich: I found this creative commons image that I cropped:
Kolya Butternut ( talk) 00:58, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Netoholic: This thread shows consensus for that lead image. What your edit has done is to make the reproductive system diagram the lead image again, which is how we started this, months ago. Self-revert and join the talk page discussion. Leviv ich 12:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter- something yours does not do since I can barely tell its a woman except for the caption. I thought about moving the "Pregnant woman" image up to the lead, as it at least is a clear representation of the vast majority of women in the world, showing their form and indicating an important role to society, but until people on this talk page hash out their opinions (and ultimately reject the activists who want to redefine this topic rather than document it fairly), then its pointless to even have a lead image at all. -- Netoholic @ 13:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The article is a bit Eurocentric, especially in its discussion of women in science and contemporary politics, as well as the images it shows. Greater diversity of women represented, as well as discussion of the intersections between ethnicity/class/religion and gender, would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.107.125 ( talk) 10:23, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Suggestion: Use an image depicting several women in a collage (see [carnivora]). -- 169.231.181.119 ( talk) 17:02, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I've reached this article to read about how hormonal differences between women and men lead to differences in world-view between the sexes. But again, found nothing. Why all articles about sex are totally framed in anatomy + politics? I need objective information, from the Biological and Psychological Sciences, not feminist propaganda.-- MisterSanderson ( talk) 23:21, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
"As in cases without two sexes, such as species that reproduce asexually, the gender-neutral appearance is closer to female than to male". Shouldn't it be "such as species that *can* reproduce asexually"? If a species reproduces asexually then ostensibly it has no sex, in which case there's no male/female to which the embryo (appearing a sentence before that) can be similar. -- 178.8.24.240 ( talk) 11:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Not a forum, just taking up space. Drmies ( talk) 18:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
Gender stereotyping According to the United Nations of Human Rights, they mentioned that the states are required to defend women’s rights against any gender stereotypes discrimination. Also, the United Nation of Human Rights are obligated to protect women’s public and private life against any stereotype that women may encounter. [1] The United Nations of Human Rights mentioned the following, “A gender stereotype is a generalized view or preconception about attributes or characteristics, or the roles that are or ought to be possessed by, or performed by women and men. A gender stereotype is harmful when it limits women’s and men’s capacity to develop their personal abilities, pursue their professional careers and make choices about their lives. [2] In addition, the articles explains that a gender stereotype is caused by a general idea or thought that has to do with women’s qualities, characteristics or roles that are achieved by women in this case. Also, such gender stereotype can be damaging when it decreases a women’s ability to make progress in either personal or professional setting. [3] The United Nations of Human Rights also explain that, “Harmful stereotypes can be both hostile/negative (e.g., women are irrational) or seemingly benign (e.g., women are nurturing). For example, the fact that child care responsibilities often fall exclusively on women is based on the latter stereotype. [4] “Gender stereotyping refers to the practice of ascribing to an individual woman or man specific attributes, characteristics, or roles by reason only of her or his membership in the social group of women or men. Gender stereotyping is wrongful when it results in a violation or violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms.” [5] “Example of wrongful gender stereotyping are the failure to criminalize marital rape based on societal perception of women as the sexual property of men, and the failure to effectively investigate, prosecute and sentence sexual violence against women based on, e.g., the stereotype that women should protect themselves from sexual violence by dressing and behaving modestly” [6] “Gender stereotypes compounded and intersecting with other stereotypes have a disproportionate negative impact on certain groups of women, such as women from minority or indigenous groups, women with disabilities, women from lower caste groups or with lower economic status, migrant women, etc.” [7] “Wrongful gender stereotyping is a frequent cause of discrimination against women and a contributing factor in violations of a vast array of rights such as the right to health, adequate standard of living, education, marriage and family relations, work, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, political participation and representation, effective remedy, and freedom from gender-based violence. “ [8] Violence against women “The Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women defines “violence against women” as “any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or psychological harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or private life.” “ [9] “It has taken decades of struggle by the women’s rights movement to persuade the international community to view gender-based violence against women as a human rights concern and not just as a private matter in which the State should not interfere. In 1992, the CEDAW Committee in its General Recommendation No. 19, asserted that violence against women is a form of discrimination, directed towards a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately. This violence seriously inhibits women’s ability to enjoy rights and freedoms on a basis of equality with men. In December 1993, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, recognized that violence against women violates women's rights and fundamental freedoms and called on states and the international community to work toward the eradication of violence against women. The same year, the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action recognized that the elimination of violence against women in public and private life is a human rights obligation. The then Commission on Human Rights condemned gender-based violence for the first time in 1994 and the same year appointed a Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences. The 1995 UN World Conference on Women held in Beijing reaffirmed the conclusions of the Vienna Conference, listing violence against women as one of the critical areas of concern. In 2017, the CEDAW Committee, marking 25th anniversary of its General Recommendation No. 19, further elaborated international standards on gender-based violence against women in its General Recommendation No. 35. In General Recommendation No. 35, the CEDAW Committee recognized that the prohibition of gender-based violence against women has evolved into a principle of customary international law, binding all States.” [10] “Framing gender-based violence against women as a human rights violation implies an important conceptual shift. It means recognizing that women are not exposed to violence by accident, or because of an in-born vulnerability. Instead, violence is the result of structural, deep-rooted discrimination which the state has an obligation to address. Preventing and addressing gender-based violence against women is therefore not a charitable act. It is a legal and moral obligation requiring legislative, administrative and institutional measures and reforms and the eradication of gender stereotypes which condone or perpetuate gender-based violence against women and underpin the structural inequality of women with men.” “The Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women and the CEDAW General Recommendation No. 35 provide for the concept of due diligence obligation of States. Under this obligation, States have a duty to take positive action to prevent and protect women from violence, punish perpetrators of violent acts and compensate victims of violence. The principle of due diligence is crucial as it provides the missing link between human rights obligations and acts of private persons.” [11] “Considerable progress has been made in many countries of the world. Comprehensive legal frameworks and specific institutions and policies have been put in place to promote women’s rights, prevent and protect women from violence. There is growing awareness of the nature and impact of violence against women around the world. Innovative and promising practices are reported every year to the General Assembly, the Human Rights Council and the Commission on the Status of Women, including in the areas of investigations, prosecution and provision of services.” [12] “Yet, the figures on prevalence of violence against women are alarming. According to data by the World Health Organization, one third of women globally experience violence at least once in their lifetime. There are still obstacles to women’s access to justice, resulting into widespread impunity for violence. Considerable efforts are still required to promote women’s and girls’ autonomy and choice and to ensure the realization of the right of women and girls to a life free from violence.” [13] Avasqu71 ( talk) 05:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC) References
|
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).Why hasn't this page been fixed yet? With such a topic as huge as "woman" there shouldn't be so much jargon, politics and new age "ideas" while being written at a high school level. The article should be neutral and devoid of bias. The opening to the article should not have anything that is not about a female human being. I have read through pretty much all the comments on the talk page and I don't understand why this is not resolved. Transgendered individuals make up less than
.05% of the population, not to mention transwomen making up even less from that number. Why is the entire side of the page is covered in "women in society", "feminism" and "feminist philosophy" page links? Come on, what is this? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a political rally. The first thing when you think about women is not feminism and feminist philosophy, get them out of here.
"A woman is a female human being. The term woman is usually reserved for an adult, with girl being the usual term for a female child or adolescent. The term woman is also sometimes used to identify a female human, regardless of age, as in phrases such as "women's rights"."
Why is this phrase "women's rights" here? Is this all women are about? Meanwhile the men's page says "men's basketball." This can be changed to "women's health", "women's volleyball", "women's section", I mean, literally ANYTHING else.
"Women with typical genetic development are usually capable of giving birth from puberty until menopause."
This is poorly written. Is it necessary to insinuate about infertility in the first intro to the page? Infertility/difficulty carrying to term effect 10% of women ages 15-44. This stat does not include the top reason why women become infertile which is that they wait too long and their egg reserves diminishes severely after age 32. Again... WHY is this in the introduction to this article? I think everyone knows that not every single woman on the planet is capable of getting pregnant and giving birth, there is no need to handle this with kid gloves.
"There are also trans women (those who have a male sex assignment that does not align with their gender identity),[1] and intersex women (those born with sexual characteristics that do not fit typical notions of male or female)."
Why are transwomen being mentioned in the intro to this article? A woman is a female human by wikipedia's own admission--why are transwomen who are biologically male mentioned in an article about biologically female humans? Trans and intersex individuals make up such a tiny, minute portion of the population and should not be mentioned here. They do not hold equal validity in an article that is about female humans. This sentence should not be here at all and the wording of it uses lingo and buzzwords a la Vox or Slate. Transwomen are not "assigned" male; the doctor visually observes a baby's genitalia and uses the word corresponding to said genitalia. In essence, if you have a penis you are male and if you have a vagina you are female. Sure, there are anomaly's... but this doesn't belong here. The word "Assign" makes it seem like the doctor gives the baby it's sex because of his or her own personal choice or feelings, like "Hmmm, having assigned female in a while, let's do that!" If the baby chooses to transition later in life that has absolutely nothing to do with what the doctor, all the nurses and the parents saw with their own eyeballs at the birth. It's as simple as that. This line needs to be removed completely. It's inaccurate and personal feelings do not belong in an encyclopedia. AikaNikolas ( talk) 08:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I know people are probably sick of talking about this element of the blurb, but I feel like the following quoted segment should be made more clear:
There are also trans women (those who have a male sex assignment that does not align with their gender identity), [1] and intersex women (those born with sexual characteristics that do not fit typical notions of male or female).
Specfically, the second half (regarding "intersex women") seems to be using "women" to refer to self-identified gender, not sex, although the parenthetical does not indicate this in any direct way (you could argue it indicates it indirectly since it mentions a deviation in sexual characteristics). Looking through the intersex article, I can't find any instance of the word "woman" that isn't referring to sex, so I don't think there's some 3rd usage I'm overlooking. Simply put, the parenthetical is simply defining what an intersex person is, not an intersex woman, which does not match the first half of the sentence (corresponding to trans women).
If the mention of "intersex women" is simply an additional nod to the usage of the term "woman" to refer to self-identified gender instead of sex, then I feel like there is a clearer way to present that, possibly simply by adding some kind of preface, like so:
The term "woman" is also sometimes used to refer to one's self-identified gender, such as with trans women (those who [...] do not fit typical notions of male or female but identify as women).
This makes the purpose of the sentence (inclusion of the use of the word as a gender identity) more immediately clear, keeps the two topics of the sentence in agreement in terms of format, and makes the last parenthetical directly relevant to the article (current version is not). That said, what I proposed here still needs some obvious work. Notably, the version of the preface I've provided is somewhat weasel-wordy in its use of "sometimes".
Honestly, I think the answer is that the exact wording I'm providing for the preface is wholly undesirable, but the general structure is something that should probably be used. However, I don't know what specific wording would actually be good for this first portion. Whatever wording is used, it should be specific and supported by reliable sources. Even the current wording ("There are also[...]") is honestly awful.
Perhaps the most concrete claim possible looks something like this (very rough):
Within some social sciences, the term "woman" is [...]. This usage has also been adopted by ___a group you can reliably make this claim about___ (new source goes here).
Thoughts? First, on whether or not we can agree that the current sentence is poorly done in the ways I've mentioned, and second, on what I've proposed to replace it. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 02:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
References
"Women are twice as likely as men to use emoticons in text messages" [1] Benjamin ( talk) 16:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I do still think there should be one article summarizing all the differences between men and women. Here's another example: In women, the index and ring finger tend to be the same length, whereas men's ring finger tends to be longer. [2] Benjamin ( talk) 11:22, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Botticelli's The Birth of Venus is a very poor lead image for this page.
I see that there used to be a gallery that was removed in Feb 2016 following this RFC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images about galleries of large groups of people (which arose from an RfC here, now in the archives here), which arose from a prior RfC about ethnic groups" that led to MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES. There was an effort to repeal MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES here in June 2016 that failed.
So OK, no gallery. There has been no discussion here since then.
In the article, we've had:
So the Venus is just a "classier" version of the "bust", "fitness model", and actress pictures, emphasizing sexuality/beauty ideals, and this is not a good thing. I'm removing the image, leaving the infobox symbol image at the top. I very much doubt that an RfC would provide consensus for Venus or the similar images as the lead image on this page. Jytdog ( talk) 14:11, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me that the new image (woman mechanic) is the same problem as was identified with the original image, just in a different way. If the original image emphasized outdated and west-centric ideals of female beauty, then this new image emphasizes (also west-centric) ideals of modern feminism, which is not necessarily a point of view that I disagree with, but it is still a specific conceptualization of "woman" and not a universally applicable representation, and Wikipedia should aim for neutrality. Since the article for "man" uses the image from the Sistine Chapel of "The Birth of Adam", then why not use for this article the image from the Sistine Chapel of " The Creation of Eve"? (The image could potentially be cropped to show only Eve.) That seems the most logical option, to me. Or, alternatively, perhaps keeping the "woman mechanic" image, but along with a couple other images showing other conceptualizations of "women", such as one more traditional western conceptualization, a non-western woman, maybe even a trans-woman? (unless that would be perceived as violating "no ethnic galleries") Or, as a third alternative, one single photograph of a woman who is portrayed in a way that is neither, in traditional conceptualizations of the terms, feminine nor masculine? Vontheri ( talk) 21:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Apologies for bringing up the issue of lead image again, as I see it was discussed above a few months ago. But the lead image is kind of important because it's the image that pops up in previews and some aggregators and such. I was reading something that wikilinked " Man and Woman" and I moused over the links to see the WP:Tools/Navigation popups, and the lead image for Man is a picture of a man, specifically Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam. The lead image for Woman is a diagram of the female reproductive system. These two pictures communicated to me that "man" is a male (complete) human being, and "woman" is a vagina. I didn't want to change it unilaterally (specifically, I didn't want to revert this edit without asking first). Is it just me? Leviv ich 23:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Some additional possibilities? Leviv ich 04:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
How about this? A beautiful work of art that's 1. Stylized enough to feel somewhat universal 2. Not depicting anyone specific. 3. From a culture that's not over-represented on Wikipedia (it's a fresco from a Minoan palace.) 4. Not sexy or male-gazey.
WanderingWanda ( talk) 05:00, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Regarding which woman, what about the panracial line drawing of a woman that is etched onto a gold plaque being carried by the Pioneer 10 spacecraft, and which is the first object constructed by humans to leave the solar system? This image, along with the companion image of a man and some technical information about its origin, was the first explicit, concrete interstellar communication attempt by humans, and is intended to convey information about all humankind to other beings, in case it is ever intercepted by extraterrestrial life. Mathglot ( talk) 09:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Levivich: Sorry to say this but I hate that picture. I feel like it is defining a woman by her form of wage labor, and suggesting that a woman has more value when she performs traditionally male roles. I understand we didn't have much to work with, and I appreciate all your effort. I would like something like this as an example(it says all rights reserved): [3] I discussed criteria I felt was important for this lead image in the Man article here: [4] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 18:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Levivich: I found this creative commons image that I cropped:
Kolya Butternut ( talk) 00:58, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Netoholic: This thread shows consensus for that lead image. What your edit has done is to make the reproductive system diagram the lead image again, which is how we started this, months ago. Self-revert and join the talk page discussion. Leviv ich 12:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter- something yours does not do since I can barely tell its a woman except for the caption. I thought about moving the "Pregnant woman" image up to the lead, as it at least is a clear representation of the vast majority of women in the world, showing their form and indicating an important role to society, but until people on this talk page hash out their opinions (and ultimately reject the activists who want to redefine this topic rather than document it fairly), then its pointless to even have a lead image at all. -- Netoholic @ 13:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)