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I am placing citations to these sources here in the hope that some editors will find the material useful for working into the article. I haven't had time to go through them myself, but may add material later. In the meantime, I have placed links to the source Web pages in the External links section. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 03:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I recently made two minor edits in the introduction to re-word statements that included statistics (mortality due to violence). Though the new wording isn't ideal it does a better job of reflecting the fact that the statistics are both estimates, and temporally based.
While the use of statistics is helpful in providing context for the subject matter, care must be taken to avoid making the numbers come across as exact and unchanging. This is especially true for global mortality estimates of a subject as important, broad, and contentious as violence.
ibykow ( talk) 13:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
I believe we should revisit the idea of how violence is defined. One of the key things to know about violence is that the definition is not agreed upon. It seems as important as cataloguing types of violence.
I think the biggest area of disagreement is the idea of violence being physical. The current page does not acknowledge what many if not most people believe, which is that violence is physical. People/sources can make the argument that verbal, psychological, or structural things should be seen as violent, but that should be labeled as subjective on a Wikipedia article. If you look at the talk page discussion from years ago, the main definitions of violence used to focus on its physicality. That now seems to be almost completely absent from the page, and it should not be. I think this is because the World Health Organization source is being used as though it were objective or the only source that matters. Content from other sources should be added that illustrate disagreement in the definition.
Secondly, people have brought up the idea before and nothing has changed regarding the page being too anthropocentric. Violence against animals does not have a small section of its own and is barely included. Again, part of this is that the WHO source is relied on heavily, and animals do not fit into its frame. Just mentioning that some people and organizations (humane societies, SPCAs, other nonprofit organizations) believe that violence against animals is a social problem would be an improvement. 174.65.74.44 ( talk) 20:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
-- 67.170.146.172 ( talk) 13:33, 22 January 2019 (UTC) I agree that the encyclopedia should take a neutral point of view, this article is heavily slanted towards a left point of view, which views violence to include nebulous non violent acts like "economic violence" in an attempt to hijack the english language for political purposes, if we allow this sort of tripe into the encyclopedia why not include "eugenic violence" or "white genocide", and every other thing a person is harmed by into the definition of violence.
Violence is "the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy." [1] Less conventional definitions are also used, such as the World Health Organization's definition of violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation." [2]
References
- ^ "Violence". Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary. Retrieved 2019-01-31.
- ^ Krug et al., "World report on violence and health" Archived 2015-08-22 at the Wayback Machine, World Health Organization, 2002.
--Right, so this is an odd edit war. The citation they tried to use to argue that the definition doesn't need to include "physical force" was this guy: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/violence. Which lists multiple definitions. All of which but one includes "physical force". The vast majority of definitions of violence include "physical force": https://www.google.com/search?&q=violence https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/violence https://www.britannica.com/topic/violence https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence The WHO's definition comes with it's fair share of caveats, like "Defining it is not an exact science but a matter of judgement", and "There are many possible ways to define violence, depending on who is defining it and for what purpose." EVEN THEN, their stated definition is: "The World Health Organization defines violence(4) as:The intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual...". Only after that do they talk out the other side of their head and say: "The definition encompasses interpersonal violence as well as suicidal behaviour and armed conflict.It also covers a wide range of acts, going beyond physical acts to include threats and intimidation.Besides death and injury, the definition also includes the myriad and often less obvious consequences of violent behaviour, such as psychological harm,deprivation and maldevelopment that compromise the well-being of individuals, families and communities." I'm not in favor of redefining words and changing the meaning of well established words. There's a lot of good citation in favor of this stance. Arguing otherwise loses you credibility. 97.122.93.217 ( talk) 01:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
--The addition of "slow violence" falls under this issue. It's interesting and insightful in parts, but it's not really a type of violence. More like societal reactions or perception of violence. Case in point "post-traumatic stress" and "the collapse that visited upon glaciers as a result of long-term climate change effects." ...Those do not meet the definition of violence. If you expand the scope and definition of violence as to include the destruction of glaciers, then bulldozers are violent machines made specifically to do violence. Which is nuts. And there's no need for this. Climate change is bad (and a good example of slow violence) in the sense that it's subtly and very slowly leads to wildfires, floods, hurricanes, droughts, and very destructive forces of nature (where they were not previously accustomed to). These are violent events where people die. The cause of which is real slow. But stress, and glaciers melting, are not themselves any sort of violence. It's all bad stuff. But call it what it is: abuse of power, corruption, propaganda, pollution, and social manipulation. And I'm against the sort of social manipulation like redefining violence. The section needs to be cleaned up and moved to the factors section. 71.211.175.77 ( talk) 08:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
-- Is there a reference for the value judgement that the WHO definition is "less conventional", less conventional to who? The WHO is an organisation representing almost very Ministry of Health on earth so it is pretty conventional, and I certainly know most doctors see it as being an important source of definitions. Describing the WHO's definition as "less conventional" does not seem neutral to me unless the person who wrote it as being less conventional has a reference to support that? The differentiation between definitions of violence as being only referring to harm done to living beings rather than property is very topical right now and this article seems to start with bias towards the idea that violence is not only limited to violence against living beings and not-inclusive of psychological/structural violence, by devaluing the WHO definition. Would appreciate an editor weighing in to correct this bias, but if not I plan to change this in 2 days. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 02:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
---Yes the other references would be most of the other dictionaries:
- merriam-webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence?utm_campaign=sd&utm_medium=serp&utm_source=jsonld - dictionary.com: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence?s=t - wiktionary.com: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/violence - google dictionary: https://www.google.com/search?q=google+dictionary&oq=google+dictionary&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.2038j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#dobs=violence - oxford: https://www.oxfordreference.com/search?q=violence&searchBtn=Search&isQuickSearch=true - Collins: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/violence
Cambridge is the only one to have "actions or words". Collins goes with "behavior" and mentions "If you do or say something with violence...", but notes that that's literary. And yet somehow Cambridge's definition is the one that has weaseled it's way into the lead. And as noted right above you, the WHO goes all over the places when defining violence and includes physical force as part of their definition. If 7/8 of the top authorities agree on an aspect of a definition, wikipedia probably shouldn't go out of it's way to harp on the half of one definition. Psychological violence, economic violence, spiritual violence, metaphorical violence, and imagined violence are not real instances of violence being done. They are flowery poetic usages of the word as hyperbole. It diminishes and dilutes the meaning and detracts from people who have actually been hurt. This is encoded in law and I don't want the definition changing out from under me. (Although I agree that the use of physical force against things still falls under the definition. If you nuke a mountain with no one on it, that's still pretty violent.) Replacing the "less conventional" note and removing cambridges definition. (or I can simply cite the 7 places that agree with "physical force"). The real definition is there, as well as a shout-out to the people who want it changed. A good compromise. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) 07:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Dictionary lesson: The "Collins COBUILD" dictionary is a unique dictionary in that it is geared for those learning
English as a Second Language (ESL). (If I remember my numbers precisely,) it utilizes a core vocabulary of 2,000 of the most common English words to describe a total of 10,000 otherwise-common words in its dictionary. It also uses the word within its own definition (which is almost unheard of in all other dictionaries), so that each definition is also an example. By using only a core 2,000 words, the ESL learner need only learn these basic words to then be able to use the dictionary to learn the other 8,000 words. Another feature of dictionaries is that they have multiple definitions for each word, and most dictionaries (Webster, Cambridge, Oxford, etc.) have several "levels" of dictionary (beginner, school, intermediate, collegiate, unabridged) and each higher level has more and more definitions for each word. For example, a school dictionary might have a single definition of one word, whereas the unabridged might have fifteen! So while you're arguing "which meaning to use", keep in mind that you might want to consult several dictionaries to see which uses are more common and which are archaic, obsolete, or just not as common. (Of course this is just a simplistic explanation about COBUILD and dictionaries. End of lesson!)
Normal Op (
talk)
03:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
--- I don't think WHO represents heatlh ministries. That's sort of like saying a hypoethical motorvehicale safety consortium represents tesla; or the c++ standards committee represents microsoft. The WHO is an forum for *international* issues of health, within an organization, the UN, whose aim is partly to prevent violence. Journals and guidance bodies will more accurately represent the academic views of medical fields. -- Talpedia ( talk) 20:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
-- An interesting lesson, but not that useful here. Complex or simple, Collins is still a dictionary. And telling me to use several dictionaries? There's 7 right there. AND, yes of course words have multiple uses. Some have multiple meanings. Some have multiple and entirely opposite meanings. But when it comes to "violence", in all these dictionaries, in all the meanings, only oxford throws in half a definition that lines up with the WHO's "less conventional" expanded definition that includes non-physical psychological harm.
Here's we go: the use of physical force, injury, intense turbulent or furious and often destructive action or force, undue alteration (ok, that one is pretty open), swift and intense force, rough or injurious physical force action or treatment, an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power as against rights or laws, a violent act or proceeding, rough or immoderate vehemence as of feeling or language, damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration, Extreme force, Action which causes destruction pain or suffering, Widespread fighting, (figuratively) Injustice wrong, behavior involving physical force intended to hurt damage or kill someone or something, Violence is behavior that is intended to hurt injure or kill people, If you do or say something with violence...[literary], Behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt damage or kill someone or something. I most certainly do NOT want to focus on two styles of the term when there is clearly a consensus of the authorities on a single style (at least when it comes to physical force or non-physical things like words and psychology and economics. If someone does want to make about about psychological abuse, that page already exists. Psychological violence is an oxymoron. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
The responses that were made after my edits were reverted do not address the problem that calling the WHO definition "less conventional" is clearly a Point of View (I don't see value judgements of how conventional a definition is included in any other similar wikipedia entries), the WHO represents the Ministries of Health of 194 countries so who exactly is it less conventional than? If you can show me 195 other more conventional countries than happy to keep that wording. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 05:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Obviously there are many different dictionary definitions, that cover many different nuances, insisting that only one very specific and quite narrow definition that differs from many other dictionary definitions - especially to the extent it refers to damage which could be implied as property where other definitions specify that violence is directed at humans is problematic. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 06:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
-- Well, alright, I guess I'll cite all the dictonaries. But it's not a point of view, it's basic math. Of the first 6 dictionaries with their 19 definitions, one includes a rather broad "or" clause. 0.5 vs 19 is "less conventional". If you want to put in the work of digging around for more dictionaries, go for it. But the WHO is in charge of health issues and is not an authority on definitions. AND ALSO, come on, it was right up there: The WHO's definition comes with it's fair share of caveats, like "Defining it is not an exact science but a matter of judgement", and "There are many possible ways to define violence, depending on who is defining it and for what purpose." EVEN THEN, their stated definition is: "The World Health Organization defines violence(4) as:The intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual...". Only after that do they talk out the other side of their head and say: "The definition encompasses interpersonal violence as well as suicidal behaviour and armed conflict.It also covers a wide range of acts, going beyond physical acts to include threats and intimidation.Besides death and injury, the definition also includes the myriad and often less obvious consequences of violent behaviour, such as psychological harm,deprivation and maldevelopment that compromise the well-being of individuals, families and communities." Which includes a whole lot of language which is nowhere in the definition of the word. Since then, it's shown up in a glossary in some of their material, so that's a bit of development. But the point stands that they're using a less conventional definition than the traditional usage, and than the definition per the authorities on the topic. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) 04:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
We should probably have a section on extensions to the meaning of this word in leftist subculture, e.g. deadnaming, microaggressions, non-violent communication, etc. People are going to come here looking for historical background on this (when did it start? by whom? for what stated reasons? what has been the reaction of lexicographers, grammarians, linguists, educational systems, regulatory bodies, the media, etc.?) I did, and it's not here. There seems to be a lot of material "out there" on it, but starting with the fact that, say, The Huffington Post has adopted this usage [1] and various groups right now are advocating it doesn't tell us much; someone with academic journal search site access should probably look into the origins. We can crib a little from those other articles, but there's probably journal material out there on this redefinition movement en toto. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
This is related to the reducing range of situations in which violence is acceptable. For instance, it used to be acceptable for a master to beat his servant: my impression, from nothing more than reading novels, is that that was over in the UK before the end of the 18th century. However American masters were allowed to beat their slaves, even to the point of killing them, until abolition in the 1860s. A husband was entitled to beat his wife: I recall seeing a report of an English judge saying he could use a rod no thicker than his thumb in the 1890s - but that ceased to be legal during the 20th century in the UK, though it seems to be acceptable in Russia, the Islamic world and in much of the Western underclass as well as in hyper-religious subcultures. Beating children is currently starting to become unacceptable in the West, but again not to the religious right. There used to be a category overlap for servant boys and lady's maids, who as adolescents remained subject to corporal punishment well into the 20th century after adult servants became exempt: foreign servants in the West seem to fall into this category. Criminal subcultures retain both corporal and capital punishment, as do their mirrors in the world of entertainment (e.g. gangsta rap lyrics). This may be why surveys show that many Western teenagers feel that a boyfriend is entitled to beat his girlfriend. NRPanikker ( talk) 00:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
See Murder 'comes naturally' to chimpanzees https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29237276 Zezen ( talk) 07:37, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
This page has a lot of historical charts and data that could be used to expand this article; many are licensed CC-BY. -- Beland ( talk) 19:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
First-time editors 93.87.197.222 and ( edit warrior) 178.221.252.44: explain your problems please. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:31, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
According to cultural anthropologist and ethnographer
Raymond C. Kelly, the earliest
hunter-gatherer societies of
Homo erectus population density was probably low enough to avoid armed conflict. The development of the throwing-
spear, together with ambush hunting techniques, made potential violence between hunting parties very costly, dictating cooperation and maintenance of low population densities to prevent competition for resources. This behavior may have accelerated the
migration out of Africa of H. erectus some 1.8 million years ago as a natural consequence of conflict avoidance.
Some scholars believe that this period of "Paleolithic warlessness" persisted until well after the appearance of
Homo sapiens some 315,000 years ago, ending only at the occurrence of economic and social shifts associated with
sedentism, when new conditions incentivized organized raiding of settlements.
[1]
[2]
Wolfdog (
talk)
18:57, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
debate and not consensus in academia circles(which you haven't done either). Wolfdog ( talk) 14:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
References
>The "violent male ape" image is often brought up in discussions of human violence. Dale Peterson and Richard Wranghamin "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence" write that violence is inherent in humans, though not inevitable.
This line and paragraph doesn't actually go anywhere. The two shout-outs to males being violent is is needlessly sexist. If it built up to a point or argument about sexual dimorphism like later in the article, it'd have some merit at least. If you want to make a section that covers that topic, go for it. But speaking of which, why is wikipedia hosting blatantly sexist talking points? Distributed undertones of sexism aren't a viable alternative. -- 75.166.137.201 ( talk) 20:08, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'd been at this article before, but I followed this IP to the article minutes ago. And I see that it begins with a dictionary definition of violence and places the World Health Organization (WHO) definition of violence in the context of "less conventional definitions." There has been edit warring over this. Considering that violence is a broad term (as is clear by the Wikipedia article), but it is especially relevant to the medical/health area, how to define the term in the lead sentence needs discussion. I will contact WP:Med and the other WikiProjects that the talk page is tagged with to the definitional matter for discussion. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 05:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This RfC is based on two questions:
1. Should the first sentence, whether supported by a dictionary source (as it currently is) or other sources, limit the definition of violence to physical force?
2. Should the second sentence continue to place the definitions of violence that extend beyond physical force in the context of "less conventional definitions"...even while unsourced?
For those viewing this RfC from an RfC listing, see above for more commentary on the matter. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
In addition to the WikiProjects I already alerted to this matter, I will also alert Wikipedia talk:Verifiability and Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources since the matter partly concerns verifiability and what sources are best to use in context. And I will alert Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women per what I stated about the violence against women topic. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
I also alerted Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women's Health. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 04:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Talpedia, you stated that it is "quite difficult to find a broad definition without either engaging in original research or using dictionary sources." I don't agree with that. The WHO has given a broad definition, and so do other sources, that cover all of the fields. I'm not saying that we should use the WHO definition, but in what way does it not cover anything that a legal source would state about violence? I mean, above, you stated, "In legal contexts you have the concept of assault (causing fear of violence), actual bodily harm (causing harm with violence), wounding (any form of breaking the skin), harassment (deliberately causing distress or fear), and vexatious behaviour or nuisance behaviour, as well as the tort of negligence in civil cases." The WHO definition covers all of that. You also keep stating "physical harm", but the lead sentence states "physical force". It should at least state "physical harm" instead; this is because, for example, rape is violence, but it doesn't have to be by force. Many rapes are not committed by force. And I've noted female genital mutilation. It usually is not a physical force thing (although that can depend on one's definition of physical force when involving children). Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
violence definition
as my search string. Before the 1970s, almost all the sources I saw that tried to define violence were legal journals. It was mostly criminal law, with the occasional bit of military law. It's harder to make a good summary of the modern sources, but there's still a strong contribution from the law, more from sociology, and some from medicine, although the medical field is more concerned with cleaning up the aftermath than with deciding where to draw a line between, e.g., non-violent coercion and violence. I'm not sure that we're best served by taking a medical POV here. The
MeSH definition is "Individual or group aggressive behavior which is socially non-acceptable, turbulent, and often destructive"
[5], which doesn't require physical actions, but excludes most
Structural violence and most
Use of force by law enforcement and military (because all of that's "socially acceptable").
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
00:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)violence definition
before about 1970 (and that actually contained some sort of definition of violence) was a legal source. In the more modern sources, I found a lot more sociology texts (compared to their near-non-existence in older sources). Is that what you found?
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
02:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
So, VeritasVox would rerouting the bus system be an act of violence? It is the use of power, and it results in deprivation for those advantaged by the old routes, and now disadvantaged by the rerouting. I thought I'd move my response down to the discussion section - where perhaps I should have put a portion of my survey response. Truth is King TALK 00:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
The article fails to mention how words, sometimes, and the things that people say can also be violence. After all, you wouldn’t like it if someone misgendered you, right? 50.196.7.86 ( talk) 05:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Seems to me links to Antifa and police brutality would be in order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.228.63 ( talk) 02:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Coordinated violence has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 24 § Coordinated violence until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
16:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Violence article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
MNSteinig.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
CuriousCorvid.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I am placing citations to these sources here in the hope that some editors will find the material useful for working into the article. I haven't had time to go through them myself, but may add material later. In the meantime, I have placed links to the source Web pages in the External links section. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 03:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I recently made two minor edits in the introduction to re-word statements that included statistics (mortality due to violence). Though the new wording isn't ideal it does a better job of reflecting the fact that the statistics are both estimates, and temporally based.
While the use of statistics is helpful in providing context for the subject matter, care must be taken to avoid making the numbers come across as exact and unchanging. This is especially true for global mortality estimates of a subject as important, broad, and contentious as violence.
ibykow ( talk) 13:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
I believe we should revisit the idea of how violence is defined. One of the key things to know about violence is that the definition is not agreed upon. It seems as important as cataloguing types of violence.
I think the biggest area of disagreement is the idea of violence being physical. The current page does not acknowledge what many if not most people believe, which is that violence is physical. People/sources can make the argument that verbal, psychological, or structural things should be seen as violent, but that should be labeled as subjective on a Wikipedia article. If you look at the talk page discussion from years ago, the main definitions of violence used to focus on its physicality. That now seems to be almost completely absent from the page, and it should not be. I think this is because the World Health Organization source is being used as though it were objective or the only source that matters. Content from other sources should be added that illustrate disagreement in the definition.
Secondly, people have brought up the idea before and nothing has changed regarding the page being too anthropocentric. Violence against animals does not have a small section of its own and is barely included. Again, part of this is that the WHO source is relied on heavily, and animals do not fit into its frame. Just mentioning that some people and organizations (humane societies, SPCAs, other nonprofit organizations) believe that violence against animals is a social problem would be an improvement. 174.65.74.44 ( talk) 20:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
-- 67.170.146.172 ( talk) 13:33, 22 January 2019 (UTC) I agree that the encyclopedia should take a neutral point of view, this article is heavily slanted towards a left point of view, which views violence to include nebulous non violent acts like "economic violence" in an attempt to hijack the english language for political purposes, if we allow this sort of tripe into the encyclopedia why not include "eugenic violence" or "white genocide", and every other thing a person is harmed by into the definition of violence.
Violence is "the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy." [1] Less conventional definitions are also used, such as the World Health Organization's definition of violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation." [2]
References
- ^ "Violence". Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary. Retrieved 2019-01-31.
- ^ Krug et al., "World report on violence and health" Archived 2015-08-22 at the Wayback Machine, World Health Organization, 2002.
--Right, so this is an odd edit war. The citation they tried to use to argue that the definition doesn't need to include "physical force" was this guy: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/violence. Which lists multiple definitions. All of which but one includes "physical force". The vast majority of definitions of violence include "physical force": https://www.google.com/search?&q=violence https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/violence https://www.britannica.com/topic/violence https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence The WHO's definition comes with it's fair share of caveats, like "Defining it is not an exact science but a matter of judgement", and "There are many possible ways to define violence, depending on who is defining it and for what purpose." EVEN THEN, their stated definition is: "The World Health Organization defines violence(4) as:The intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual...". Only after that do they talk out the other side of their head and say: "The definition encompasses interpersonal violence as well as suicidal behaviour and armed conflict.It also covers a wide range of acts, going beyond physical acts to include threats and intimidation.Besides death and injury, the definition also includes the myriad and often less obvious consequences of violent behaviour, such as psychological harm,deprivation and maldevelopment that compromise the well-being of individuals, families and communities." I'm not in favor of redefining words and changing the meaning of well established words. There's a lot of good citation in favor of this stance. Arguing otherwise loses you credibility. 97.122.93.217 ( talk) 01:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
--The addition of "slow violence" falls under this issue. It's interesting and insightful in parts, but it's not really a type of violence. More like societal reactions or perception of violence. Case in point "post-traumatic stress" and "the collapse that visited upon glaciers as a result of long-term climate change effects." ...Those do not meet the definition of violence. If you expand the scope and definition of violence as to include the destruction of glaciers, then bulldozers are violent machines made specifically to do violence. Which is nuts. And there's no need for this. Climate change is bad (and a good example of slow violence) in the sense that it's subtly and very slowly leads to wildfires, floods, hurricanes, droughts, and very destructive forces of nature (where they were not previously accustomed to). These are violent events where people die. The cause of which is real slow. But stress, and glaciers melting, are not themselves any sort of violence. It's all bad stuff. But call it what it is: abuse of power, corruption, propaganda, pollution, and social manipulation. And I'm against the sort of social manipulation like redefining violence. The section needs to be cleaned up and moved to the factors section. 71.211.175.77 ( talk) 08:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
-- Is there a reference for the value judgement that the WHO definition is "less conventional", less conventional to who? The WHO is an organisation representing almost very Ministry of Health on earth so it is pretty conventional, and I certainly know most doctors see it as being an important source of definitions. Describing the WHO's definition as "less conventional" does not seem neutral to me unless the person who wrote it as being less conventional has a reference to support that? The differentiation between definitions of violence as being only referring to harm done to living beings rather than property is very topical right now and this article seems to start with bias towards the idea that violence is not only limited to violence against living beings and not-inclusive of psychological/structural violence, by devaluing the WHO definition. Would appreciate an editor weighing in to correct this bias, but if not I plan to change this in 2 days. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 02:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
---Yes the other references would be most of the other dictionaries:
- merriam-webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence?utm_campaign=sd&utm_medium=serp&utm_source=jsonld - dictionary.com: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence?s=t - wiktionary.com: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/violence - google dictionary: https://www.google.com/search?q=google+dictionary&oq=google+dictionary&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.2038j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#dobs=violence - oxford: https://www.oxfordreference.com/search?q=violence&searchBtn=Search&isQuickSearch=true - Collins: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/violence
Cambridge is the only one to have "actions or words". Collins goes with "behavior" and mentions "If you do or say something with violence...", but notes that that's literary. And yet somehow Cambridge's definition is the one that has weaseled it's way into the lead. And as noted right above you, the WHO goes all over the places when defining violence and includes physical force as part of their definition. If 7/8 of the top authorities agree on an aspect of a definition, wikipedia probably shouldn't go out of it's way to harp on the half of one definition. Psychological violence, economic violence, spiritual violence, metaphorical violence, and imagined violence are not real instances of violence being done. They are flowery poetic usages of the word as hyperbole. It diminishes and dilutes the meaning and detracts from people who have actually been hurt. This is encoded in law and I don't want the definition changing out from under me. (Although I agree that the use of physical force against things still falls under the definition. If you nuke a mountain with no one on it, that's still pretty violent.) Replacing the "less conventional" note and removing cambridges definition. (or I can simply cite the 7 places that agree with "physical force"). The real definition is there, as well as a shout-out to the people who want it changed. A good compromise. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) 07:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Dictionary lesson: The "Collins COBUILD" dictionary is a unique dictionary in that it is geared for those learning
English as a Second Language (ESL). (If I remember my numbers precisely,) it utilizes a core vocabulary of 2,000 of the most common English words to describe a total of 10,000 otherwise-common words in its dictionary. It also uses the word within its own definition (which is almost unheard of in all other dictionaries), so that each definition is also an example. By using only a core 2,000 words, the ESL learner need only learn these basic words to then be able to use the dictionary to learn the other 8,000 words. Another feature of dictionaries is that they have multiple definitions for each word, and most dictionaries (Webster, Cambridge, Oxford, etc.) have several "levels" of dictionary (beginner, school, intermediate, collegiate, unabridged) and each higher level has more and more definitions for each word. For example, a school dictionary might have a single definition of one word, whereas the unabridged might have fifteen! So while you're arguing "which meaning to use", keep in mind that you might want to consult several dictionaries to see which uses are more common and which are archaic, obsolete, or just not as common. (Of course this is just a simplistic explanation about COBUILD and dictionaries. End of lesson!)
Normal Op (
talk)
03:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
--- I don't think WHO represents heatlh ministries. That's sort of like saying a hypoethical motorvehicale safety consortium represents tesla; or the c++ standards committee represents microsoft. The WHO is an forum for *international* issues of health, within an organization, the UN, whose aim is partly to prevent violence. Journals and guidance bodies will more accurately represent the academic views of medical fields. -- Talpedia ( talk) 20:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
-- An interesting lesson, but not that useful here. Complex or simple, Collins is still a dictionary. And telling me to use several dictionaries? There's 7 right there. AND, yes of course words have multiple uses. Some have multiple meanings. Some have multiple and entirely opposite meanings. But when it comes to "violence", in all these dictionaries, in all the meanings, only oxford throws in half a definition that lines up with the WHO's "less conventional" expanded definition that includes non-physical psychological harm.
Here's we go: the use of physical force, injury, intense turbulent or furious and often destructive action or force, undue alteration (ok, that one is pretty open), swift and intense force, rough or injurious physical force action or treatment, an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power as against rights or laws, a violent act or proceeding, rough or immoderate vehemence as of feeling or language, damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration, Extreme force, Action which causes destruction pain or suffering, Widespread fighting, (figuratively) Injustice wrong, behavior involving physical force intended to hurt damage or kill someone or something, Violence is behavior that is intended to hurt injure or kill people, If you do or say something with violence...[literary], Behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt damage or kill someone or something. I most certainly do NOT want to focus on two styles of the term when there is clearly a consensus of the authorities on a single style (at least when it comes to physical force or non-physical things like words and psychology and economics. If someone does want to make about about psychological abuse, that page already exists. Psychological violence is an oxymoron. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
The responses that were made after my edits were reverted do not address the problem that calling the WHO definition "less conventional" is clearly a Point of View (I don't see value judgements of how conventional a definition is included in any other similar wikipedia entries), the WHO represents the Ministries of Health of 194 countries so who exactly is it less conventional than? If you can show me 195 other more conventional countries than happy to keep that wording. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 05:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Obviously there are many different dictionary definitions, that cover many different nuances, insisting that only one very specific and quite narrow definition that differs from many other dictionary definitions - especially to the extent it refers to damage which could be implied as property where other definitions specify that violence is directed at humans is problematic. Geelong 1985 ( talk) 06:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
-- Well, alright, I guess I'll cite all the dictonaries. But it's not a point of view, it's basic math. Of the first 6 dictionaries with their 19 definitions, one includes a rather broad "or" clause. 0.5 vs 19 is "less conventional". If you want to put in the work of digging around for more dictionaries, go for it. But the WHO is in charge of health issues and is not an authority on definitions. AND ALSO, come on, it was right up there: The WHO's definition comes with it's fair share of caveats, like "Defining it is not an exact science but a matter of judgement", and "There are many possible ways to define violence, depending on who is defining it and for what purpose." EVEN THEN, their stated definition is: "The World Health Organization defines violence(4) as:The intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual...". Only after that do they talk out the other side of their head and say: "The definition encompasses interpersonal violence as well as suicidal behaviour and armed conflict.It also covers a wide range of acts, going beyond physical acts to include threats and intimidation.Besides death and injury, the definition also includes the myriad and often less obvious consequences of violent behaviour, such as psychological harm,deprivation and maldevelopment that compromise the well-being of individuals, families and communities." Which includes a whole lot of language which is nowhere in the definition of the word. Since then, it's shown up in a glossary in some of their material, so that's a bit of development. But the point stands that they're using a less conventional definition than the traditional usage, and than the definition per the authorities on the topic. 97.122.95.30 ( talk) 04:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
We should probably have a section on extensions to the meaning of this word in leftist subculture, e.g. deadnaming, microaggressions, non-violent communication, etc. People are going to come here looking for historical background on this (when did it start? by whom? for what stated reasons? what has been the reaction of lexicographers, grammarians, linguists, educational systems, regulatory bodies, the media, etc.?) I did, and it's not here. There seems to be a lot of material "out there" on it, but starting with the fact that, say, The Huffington Post has adopted this usage [1] and various groups right now are advocating it doesn't tell us much; someone with academic journal search site access should probably look into the origins. We can crib a little from those other articles, but there's probably journal material out there on this redefinition movement en toto. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
This is related to the reducing range of situations in which violence is acceptable. For instance, it used to be acceptable for a master to beat his servant: my impression, from nothing more than reading novels, is that that was over in the UK before the end of the 18th century. However American masters were allowed to beat their slaves, even to the point of killing them, until abolition in the 1860s. A husband was entitled to beat his wife: I recall seeing a report of an English judge saying he could use a rod no thicker than his thumb in the 1890s - but that ceased to be legal during the 20th century in the UK, though it seems to be acceptable in Russia, the Islamic world and in much of the Western underclass as well as in hyper-religious subcultures. Beating children is currently starting to become unacceptable in the West, but again not to the religious right. There used to be a category overlap for servant boys and lady's maids, who as adolescents remained subject to corporal punishment well into the 20th century after adult servants became exempt: foreign servants in the West seem to fall into this category. Criminal subcultures retain both corporal and capital punishment, as do their mirrors in the world of entertainment (e.g. gangsta rap lyrics). This may be why surveys show that many Western teenagers feel that a boyfriend is entitled to beat his girlfriend. NRPanikker ( talk) 00:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
See Murder 'comes naturally' to chimpanzees https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29237276 Zezen ( talk) 07:37, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
This page has a lot of historical charts and data that could be used to expand this article; many are licensed CC-BY. -- Beland ( talk) 19:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
First-time editors 93.87.197.222 and ( edit warrior) 178.221.252.44: explain your problems please. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:31, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
According to cultural anthropologist and ethnographer
Raymond C. Kelly, the earliest
hunter-gatherer societies of
Homo erectus population density was probably low enough to avoid armed conflict. The development of the throwing-
spear, together with ambush hunting techniques, made potential violence between hunting parties very costly, dictating cooperation and maintenance of low population densities to prevent competition for resources. This behavior may have accelerated the
migration out of Africa of H. erectus some 1.8 million years ago as a natural consequence of conflict avoidance.
Some scholars believe that this period of "Paleolithic warlessness" persisted until well after the appearance of
Homo sapiens some 315,000 years ago, ending only at the occurrence of economic and social shifts associated with
sedentism, when new conditions incentivized organized raiding of settlements.
[1]
[2]
Wolfdog (
talk)
18:57, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
debate and not consensus in academia circles(which you haven't done either). Wolfdog ( talk) 14:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
References
>The "violent male ape" image is often brought up in discussions of human violence. Dale Peterson and Richard Wranghamin "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence" write that violence is inherent in humans, though not inevitable.
This line and paragraph doesn't actually go anywhere. The two shout-outs to males being violent is is needlessly sexist. If it built up to a point or argument about sexual dimorphism like later in the article, it'd have some merit at least. If you want to make a section that covers that topic, go for it. But speaking of which, why is wikipedia hosting blatantly sexist talking points? Distributed undertones of sexism aren't a viable alternative. -- 75.166.137.201 ( talk) 20:08, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'd been at this article before, but I followed this IP to the article minutes ago. And I see that it begins with a dictionary definition of violence and places the World Health Organization (WHO) definition of violence in the context of "less conventional definitions." There has been edit warring over this. Considering that violence is a broad term (as is clear by the Wikipedia article), but it is especially relevant to the medical/health area, how to define the term in the lead sentence needs discussion. I will contact WP:Med and the other WikiProjects that the talk page is tagged with to the definitional matter for discussion. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 05:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This RfC is based on two questions:
1. Should the first sentence, whether supported by a dictionary source (as it currently is) or other sources, limit the definition of violence to physical force?
2. Should the second sentence continue to place the definitions of violence that extend beyond physical force in the context of "less conventional definitions"...even while unsourced?
For those viewing this RfC from an RfC listing, see above for more commentary on the matter. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
In addition to the WikiProjects I already alerted to this matter, I will also alert Wikipedia talk:Verifiability and Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources since the matter partly concerns verifiability and what sources are best to use in context. And I will alert Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women per what I stated about the violence against women topic. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
I also alerted Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women's Health. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 04:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Talpedia, you stated that it is "quite difficult to find a broad definition without either engaging in original research or using dictionary sources." I don't agree with that. The WHO has given a broad definition, and so do other sources, that cover all of the fields. I'm not saying that we should use the WHO definition, but in what way does it not cover anything that a legal source would state about violence? I mean, above, you stated, "In legal contexts you have the concept of assault (causing fear of violence), actual bodily harm (causing harm with violence), wounding (any form of breaking the skin), harassment (deliberately causing distress or fear), and vexatious behaviour or nuisance behaviour, as well as the tort of negligence in civil cases." The WHO definition covers all of that. You also keep stating "physical harm", but the lead sentence states "physical force". It should at least state "physical harm" instead; this is because, for example, rape is violence, but it doesn't have to be by force. Many rapes are not committed by force. And I've noted female genital mutilation. It usually is not a physical force thing (although that can depend on one's definition of physical force when involving children). Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 03:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
violence definition
as my search string. Before the 1970s, almost all the sources I saw that tried to define violence were legal journals. It was mostly criminal law, with the occasional bit of military law. It's harder to make a good summary of the modern sources, but there's still a strong contribution from the law, more from sociology, and some from medicine, although the medical field is more concerned with cleaning up the aftermath than with deciding where to draw a line between, e.g., non-violent coercion and violence. I'm not sure that we're best served by taking a medical POV here. The
MeSH definition is "Individual or group aggressive behavior which is socially non-acceptable, turbulent, and often destructive"
[5], which doesn't require physical actions, but excludes most
Structural violence and most
Use of force by law enforcement and military (because all of that's "socially acceptable").
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
00:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)violence definition
before about 1970 (and that actually contained some sort of definition of violence) was a legal source. In the more modern sources, I found a lot more sociology texts (compared to their near-non-existence in older sources). Is that what you found?
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
02:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
So, VeritasVox would rerouting the bus system be an act of violence? It is the use of power, and it results in deprivation for those advantaged by the old routes, and now disadvantaged by the rerouting. I thought I'd move my response down to the discussion section - where perhaps I should have put a portion of my survey response. Truth is King TALK 00:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
The article fails to mention how words, sometimes, and the things that people say can also be violence. After all, you wouldn’t like it if someone misgendered you, right? 50.196.7.86 ( talk) 05:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Seems to me links to Antifa and police brutality would be in order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.228.63 ( talk) 02:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Coordinated violence has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 24 § Coordinated violence until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
16:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)