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I've reverted the deletion of the names of the U.S. Navy sailors killed in the incident, and here's why. The reason given in the edit summary was WP:NOTMEMORIAL, which doesn't apply here: it forbids "personal web pages, file storage areas, dating services, memorial pages, and content for projects unrelated to Wikipedia"; it nowhere enjoins a list, within a well-regarded article about a notable event, of those who died in that event. Moreover, the deaths of the sailors are the main reason this incident is notable; a brief, factual list of who died is crucial detail without which this article would be incomplete. PRRfan ( talk) 20:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Accusing any of us of having a conflict of interest without evidence is a violation of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and WP:Assume good faith guidelines. Please do not repeat this accusation without evidence. Notability is irrelevant.
The only real reason to remove this is if consensus supports removal. From what I can tell, no such consensus exists. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Here is selection of some Featured articles about similar incidents. FAs are, by strong consensus of qualified judges, examples of Wikipedia's best content, and numerous editors verify that the articles strictly adhere to all policies and guidelines:
You can either read the words of the guidelines, which clearly apply to the creation of articles, not the mention of facts within articles, or you can learn by example, and see that this meets the rigors criteria of the WP:FA selection process. Either way, it's valid, and you need to come up with a better reason if you want to delete the names. If you think its better to have the names in prose rather than a bulleted list, I tend to agree. Should a link to a jpeg of a grave marker be cited as a footnote? No. We have other, better sources to support this.
If only you weren’t struggling to hard to be right in the face of all evidence to the contrary, you’d have noticed I already responded to Bri. I’m still waiting on you to provide some reliable sources. Parsecboy ( talk) 22:20, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help)The veracity of the seven names isn't in dispute. You're arguing that they lack gravitas, yet we've given you a long list of FAs, all weighty with gravitas: 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash, 1940 Brocklesby mid-air collision, 1968 Thule Air Base B-52 crash, 1982 British Army Gazelle friendly fire incident, Moors murders, Whitechapel murders. You've been given august naval histories that also list this very type of information.
Your objections have been satisfied. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
If we can't go by the rules at WP:RS, then what rules can we go by? Tell us what the criteria are for a true naval historian. Then we can test whether or not one of these learned sages ever does this thing that you say they never do. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
It is only a game though. WP:RS doesn't say we can only cite PhDs in history, and third, fourth, tenth opinions are going to converge on the old standby: we already have a perfectly good set of guidelines for what is and isn't a reliable source. There's no reason why all the editors on this article have to work with your made-up restrictions. It will be amusing to cite PhDs in history who specialize in naval history who have listed all the casualties of an incident, and see if you think of reasons why the are not true PhDs of naval history. We'll see. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Tell me, was that casualty list an internal Navy record? You do know that Morison was working for the Navy, right (and was in fact a commissioned officer)? If so, why do you think that is at all relevant? Parsecboy ( talk) 10:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Since we don't seem to be reaching consensus, I've asked for other opinions on this sourcing issue from the Military History Wikiproject. ☆ Bri ( talk) 01:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
For me, the problem is we have a bulleted list with no context. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections points out that a garbage dump section or context-free list (trivia, pop culture, misc) makes poor articles for organizational reasons, not because of the content itself. You fix that by moving the content into context, and fleshing it out in prose, using information such as that given in the NYT here, as well as other sources in the list above. So we should put a prose rewrite out there, and discuss that on its merits. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Reliable indicate their deaths are important. A lot of what we have here is editors who want to do as they please rather than be guided by what the sources give us. I don't arbitrarily discount whole swaths of citations that meet WP:RS. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
As I said, this probably requires the actual text to be put in the article so that everyone can see it. It's not helping to only talk vaguely about what it should say. But you can see it in the sources above. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 04:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
The attempts to cite policy saying we aren't allowed to say their names have not been convincing. They depend on a tortured reading of the guidelines and a lot of Wikilawyering. It seems like if Wikipedia really had a restriction against listing the names of casualties, it would say so plainly, and we wouldn't see such a large number of FAs (not to mention GAs) that are apparently unaware of this supposed restriction. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's a question for those who favor including the names: what exactly does a list of names provide for readers that is not already provided by a statement along the lines of "seven sailors were killed and three were injured in the accident."? Which is to say, what exactly is the purpose for including the names? Nobody has answered this, as far as I can tell. Some have argued that the information is useful, but no one has actually explained how it is useful. Parsecboy ( talk) 17:02, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"what exactly does a list of names provide". I want to note that you are italicizing the word "exactly" and I want to point out that this is unknowable. How would we know a reader's purposes in accessing this article? I don't have preconceptions about what this article should be. My role is to provide a reader with information relevant to a given subject area. I am willing to omit information—but only for good reason. Bus stop ( talk) 17:28, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"I want to know what meaning is conveyed to readers by a list of names."This is unknowable. I am not omniscient. But we are not tasked with knowing what meaning is conveyed to readers by information in an article. We are tasked with ascertaining that it is relevant, verifiable, etc. This information, contained in the "Casualties" section is relevant and verifiable, is it not? Bus stop ( talk) 18:10, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"Since we're struggling to determine how the names are relevant to readers, that might be a clue that we should leave them out."No, you are struggling. I am not struggling. I don't have preconceptions about the uses to which readers put articles. My role is to provide information. Once again: that information must be reliably sourced, it must be within the scope of the article, and it must not be disallowed or inadvisable for some reason.
"I’ve effectively already told you why I don’t want the names in the article."You have told me that you are "struggling to determine how the names are relevant to readers". That is not a reason to omit this information. You do not know why a reader has come to this article or what information is important to them. Information is included or omitted for reasons. Those reasons have to be articulated, at least in the case of a dispute, such as this. I think there is a burden on you to say why this version of the article is problematic. Of course I am referring to the section of the article with the section heading "Casualties". The standard way we build articles is by addition. "Subtraction" plays a role but given the fact that your initiative is to expunge all mention of the names of the deceased, I have to ask you about your rationale for wanting to do so. Were the information in the "Casualties" section extensive I would agree it should be trimmed back. But even then I would not support entire removal of such information. That is what I am asking you about—why remove even the bare mention of the names? These are the 7 people who died. How do you arrive at the conclusion that even their names should not be mentioned? Bus stop ( talk) 23:27, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"You need to provide a convincing reason to include the information."It is within the scope of this article. You have to understand your own position. You are not arguing to reduce the amount of information on each decedent. WP:NOTEVERYTHING tells you with crystal clarity: "Verifiable and sourced statements should be treated with appropriate weight." Your argument is that this information should be omitted entirely. Your position is not that some of the sappy and sentimental material pertaining to some of the decedents needs to be trimmed back. You haven't said what is wrong with this edit. It contains information that is within the scope of this article and it is not overly extensive. The reader comes to the article for information and you are arguing that we should not give them information. Why should no information on the identities of the deceased be included? Bus stop ( talk) 00:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
"it does nothing to enhance the reader’s understanding of the topic". The topic of course is "USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision". Seven fatalities occurred. The identities of the 7 deceased individuals fits squarely within the topic of this article. I don't know how you are trying to "enhance the reader’s understanding of the topic" by omitting relevant material. If you were saying there was too much material on the deceased that could be a valid argument, although I would disagree with it. But to entirely omit all mention of the identities of the deceased—that makes no sense to me. This is the version I support. It provides information (in the "Casualties" section) on the deceased. I think what I am arguing for is enhancing the reader’s understanding of the topic and I think the version linked-to above enhances the reader's understanding of the topic. Bus stop ( talk) 19:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
"They are not useful to readers."Stop pretending. You do not know what is "useful to readers." Bus stop ( talk) 15:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Editing policy doesn't push the burden entirely on those who wish to keep or on those who wish to delete content. The core policies don't take sides between deletionists and inclusionists.
This brings us back to this: you should directly address the actual arguments for why this improves the article. Where are those reasons given? [1] [2] [3] [4], to cite some examples. There are others. You can just say, no, I'm unconvinced by all that, and drop it. But if you want to go on debating, then debate the actual arguments that assert why this information adds value to the article.
Re-posting NOTEVERYTHING and NOTMEMORIAL yet again isn't going to be any more effective now than the previous eight times it was posted. Repeatedly demanding other read those two sections has gotten you nowhere, so why keep saying it? I think you should rest your case, but if you won't, please respond to the assertions that were made. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
There has been some edit-warring, the page has been locked, a 3P0 has been posted... yet the debate rages on. Perhaps if we were to gauge consensus with a straw-poll, then an uninvolved admin can close this discussion, unlock the page, the consensus can be implemented and everyone can move on to more productive endeavors. For the uninitiated, people should state whether they "support" inclusion of the names, or "oppose" inclusion, and add any relevant policies & guidelines with their !vote. - wolf
A basic, natural question about any deadly event is: who died?" - More like "How many died?". The names are irrelevant, unless you happen to know one of them, but even then this is not an obituary page, it's an encyclopaedia article... something that you and Mr. Bratland seem to continually overlook. - wolf 21:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
"This is not an obituary."Of course this is not an obituary. I don't see anyone suggesting this article may be an obituary. This is an article on an incident at sea in which fatalities took place. Why wouldn't the names of the dead be pertinent to this article? Bus stop ( talk) 16:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Bludgeoning an editor for their !vote because they didn't give enough justification almost borders on sealioning. You could reply (once), "You say per which arguments you're basing your !vote on'; are you saying support per the reasons given above, or other reasons?" If they don't answer you the first time, keep in mind that they don't have to. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"there are a lot of good arguements on both sides for inclusion and removal"There are no arguments for removal, at least none yet presented. We don't accept that inapplicable policies and guidelines have any bearing on this discussion. Therefore we are discussing the merits and disadvantages of inclusion. We've had discussions here and here that addressed the same question we are addressing. Policies and guidelines do not prohibit the inclusion of the information under discussion. The names of the deceased are clearly within the scope of this article. If a group of editors want the names of the deceased to be removed from this article it might not be a bad idea to articulate a reason why this information should be removed—otherwise it shouldn't be removed. It is not true that "are a lot of good arguements...[have been presented for]...removal". I have yet to hear an argument for removal. This is a long discussion. Perhaps I missed it. Can you tell me any argument for removal? I've seen tons of inapplicable acronyms tossed about. But policies and guidelines certainly do not prohibit this sort of information. Bus stop ( talk) 15:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
I never said inclusion is required. WP:CONPOL is the relevant guide, and as I said back on November 4, "The only real reason to remove this is if consensus supports removal."
That's where WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is relevant: if the consensus is that the article is simply better, then that's a good enough reason. But all of these claims that policy or guidelines demand it are invalid.
The only time inclusion of anything is required by policy is WP:WEIGHT or other NPOV issues. Based on how frequently our sources recite the full list of seven names, their ranks, and ages, and frequently home towns and other biographical details, you could almost argue that WP:WEIGHT requires or at least encourages us to follow suit. It's hard to conjure up neutrality from nothing, especially hard for editors who disagree to pull it out of thin air. But if we agree that we will be guided by whatever our sources think is the right amount of weight to give aspects of a story, then we have something to fashion neutrality out of, and we have an objective reality separate from the combination of personalities that happen to be editing an article. If that is our principle, than in any alternate reality with different POVs of editors collaborating, they will all tend to write the same article, since neutrality isn't splitting the difference between the editors, but between the sources. The sources include the names, so WP:WEIGHT at least suggest, and perhaps even requires, we include them.
But if the consensus is we don't like it, that's fine. I don't think the editors here have given the necessary consideration to the alternate version I outlined, with the biographical details in prose rather than a bulleted list. Hopefully that can be done and maybe consensus will support it.
I'm probably also going to make a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL to be more in line with WP:NLISTITEM/ WP:NOTEWORTHY, because too many ediotors are citing WP:NOTMEMORIAL when only WP:CONPOL should apply. If we want policy to go so far as to suppress the names of casualties, meaning deleting hundreds of " list of people killed" articles (or deleting everything but blue linked names), and delete the names from the FAs I mentioned, then that policy change needs to be proposed and stated explicitly. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
among the most nonsensical things I've heard in this discussion" does not further the discussion, and actually degrades it. It is uncivil, and one of the points of your comments I find obnoxious. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
gauge consensus". ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Hey, Dennis and I have agreed to stop posting here. If you, and everyone else that has already !voted also stops posting, then we can let the page die down and a final consensus to develop. - wolf 22:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"I have agreed to stop posting"But what you have failed to do is give either a policy-based reason that the names of the victims should be omitted or even a reason in your own words in support of your wish to omit the names of the deceased. You've asked what "encyclopedic" means. In this context it means pertinent or relevant. The names are entirely relevant to this article. This is an article on an incident in which there were fatalities. The reader of this article should be apprised of the names of the decedents. I don't argue that extensive information be provided for each of the decedents. I only argue that rudimentary information be provided and probably in list form. The reader should be able to cut-and-paste the names if they wish to do further research. Bus stop ( talk) 23:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Consider: an editor goes to the article cat and deletes all instances of the letter 'C', arguing "Just because the letter C exists, that's not a reason to put it in every article! WP:NOTEVERYTHING!" Well, we know NOTEVERYTHING is not an all-purpose excuse to delete whatever you want. The counter argument is this: "We didn't use the letter C in this article for no reason other than the fact that C exists. We need that letter. You can't spell cat without it." NOTEVERYTHING says "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful." When you delete these 7 names and cite NOTEVERYTHING as the reason, you're saying we added those facts solely because they are true or useful. A straw man argument, avoiding the actual reasons, instead picking on an easier target: the inane belief that we must include the names merely because we know them.
If I added a fact like "a sailor wore size 10 shoes" and insisted it had to be here because it was true and well-sourced NOTEVERYTHING would apply. When you cite NOTEVERYTHING, you're equating their names, ages, ranks, etc. as being as irrelevant as their shoe size.
It suggests a deep, fundamental lack of respect for those who don't agree with one's opinions, and this leads to this pitfall of not addressing actual arguments. My actual argument (above) is that this information is meaningful, that it distinguishes this event. Bri alluded to this in saying "ships don't sail themselves". This article isn't about two dead asteroids colliding in a vacuum, it's about a human endeavor, a human activity. Not about a machine with no people involved. Who those people are makes a difference. If you want to dispute that, you'd need to look at the sources I mentioned which detail why it matters who these people are, and then argue that these individual facts about them as people make no difference. That it's all the same whether any other 7 people in the world were killed. It's all the same if 7 Rear Admirals from Boise were killed, or 7 seamen born in Indonesia were killed. You'd be saying "Who they are doesn't matter because [...]" That would be an actual counterargument, rather than a straw man that treats me like some kind of fool.
But maybe I really am as big a fool as you think I am. In that case, don't you think all your fellow editors could recoginze that without you bludgeoning the process by repeatedly haranguing me with your "nonsense!" ejaculations? A counter-argument that your fellow editors are unaware of is a good contribution. Labeling others' words as "nonsensical" isn't helping. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
We already have articles specifically about the ships themselves, USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal. USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision is an article about an event, not about two ships, which are covered as the main subject elsewhere.
I see this desire to expunge the human element from articles across Wikipedia. Editors like to geek out about technology and big metal machines, and they don't want to get into all this squishy emotional and humanistic stuff. It's totally cool if an editor chooses to only add content about hardware to articles, but to go so far as to insist no one else can fully round out the subject is unjustifiable. One of the most obvious reasons is that this contradicts the sources. The sources don't describe this event purely as a cold physical occurrence when two inanimate machines interacted out in the ocean. The sources put people front and center. I hope no one would suggest a historian with PhD specializing in naval history would a fatal collision like this purely in physical terms, and they would never say "this is only about the ships, not the people."
But I understand what I'm up against. I recognized from the beginning the endemic Wikipedia prejudice favoring the specs and features of the toys, and not the people to make them go.
"I find it rich..." Who cares what you find rich? Does it advance this discussion? Obviously not. I realize Admins are virtually never held accountable for their behavior, so this, too, is moot. But everyone here can see what you're doing. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:57, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
"That they died in the collision does not make them notable": Can we stop beating that dead horse? Nobody claimed they are notable. Notability is irrelevant to whether or not a fact or name may be mentioned in an article or list. It's incredibly tedious to keep having to bat away this red herring. I realize the limits of an WP:OSE argument, but the idea that you my not list non-notable names is rubbished by the endless examples of Wikipedia's best content that does exactly that. The laughable special pleading that we can only compare this to warship collisions only underscores the weakness of the thinking here. We aren't required to list the names just because lots and lots and lots of FAs, FLs, and GAs do it, but we can be certain that Wikipedia has no policy or guideline saying it's forbidden.
It's OK if you don't like it. If consensus is simply "the article is better without it", that's totally valid. I've said four, five times, that a naked bulleted list is not the way to go, and I understand why consensus opposes having the names in that form.
But you cannot insist that nobody may boldly try a different format. No matter how many times you chant "not memorial not memorial not memorial" or "not notable not notable not notable", those arguments continue to be irrelevant and invalid. This is a classic BRD use case: "local consensus differs from global consensus, and your goal is to apply global consensus." I don't know why ten or so editors with this odd point of view have converged on this article, but there is a mountain of evidence, mainly FAs and FLs, that there is no global consensus against mentioning the names of non-notable casualties. I believe a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL will verify that. Disagree? Then you can smugly watch my proposal go down in flames. You don't need to prolong the debate here.
The BRD use case "people are talking past each other instead of getting down to brass tacks with concrete proposals" is especially relevant. I keep talking hypothetically about a future prose rewrite, to which an appropriate response is "yeah, whatever, I'll tell you what I think when I see it". Instead, several editors want to sit here and debate me about even attempting this hypothetical content nobody has even seen. Warning me that I would "disrupt Wikipedia" if I were to add such a paragraph! Really? The bare list sat here for a year and a half, and did its existence "disrupt Wikipedia"? It's not libel, a privacy violation, a copyright violation. Yet editors are slavering at the thought, ready to pounce on the revert button. Why? What if I added the content in a month or whatever, and you calmly left it there for even one week? Allowed others to take a look, while merely commenting on the talk page? You could post, "nope, still don't like it. What do others say?" If others agree, remove it after a reasonable interval.
The sad truth is I'm sure several editors will rush to revert within seconds, and will die on that hill if need be, edit warring to the limit of the 3RR, because they can't stand to let a proposed version be seen for a few days. What does that say about them? There's a reason WP:Editing policy has a whole paragraph, WP:NOTPERFECT, encouraging you to not jump on the revert button so fast. Try to fix it. Give others time to see if they can fix it. Who knows? Maybe they'll surprise you. Maybe the global consensus allowing non-notable casualty names will make itself known. And if not, you'll get to delete it in due course. It's just weird to see this kind of panic when I say I'm planning on trying a revised, reformatted, and expanded rewrite of the rejected bare list. Why the panic of a hypothetical paragraph? I really think this obsession with geeking out over hardware and excluding humanistic aspects is pathological. Whatever it is, something ain't right.
Still disagree? Then put the page on your watchlist and pounce if/when anybody puts a revised version out there. WP:ANI is ready and waiting for your reports of this hypothetical dastardly disruption. Until then, chill. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Because what, is central to who, cares about what? Look, we are not in the dramatic narrative business, even if it is non-fictional, we are in the encyclopaedia business. Now, you wrote a pretty lengthy reply, but I'll tell you just what stood out to me from the the entire post; the words "...a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL...
". I read that and immediately thought "fuck, yeah!". Obviously for not the reasons you meant though. I'm thinking; "let's tighten up wp:memorial to eliminate all lists of non-notable victims, whether bulleted or in prose, and put and end to all this. Then use the list of examples in your post as a start; RMS Titanic. the 1994 B-52 crash, and every other one we can find and, clear out all these unnecessary obituaries, (especially the
List of every single personal killed during the 9/11 attacks, all two thousand, nine hundred and oh, wait... ) -
wolf
23:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
...something you would know if you'd been an active contributor that long, Dennis.I've never encountered an Admin who spews such petty, unprofessional, schoolyard taunts, textbook examples of policy violations -- and we've all known some pretty unprofessional, uncivil Admins. I shudder to think how many noobs you've driven away with your elitist gatekeeping. I can only imagine how much abuse you heap on those with even less than my paltry 13 years, 55,000 edits, three GAs, 31 DYKs. I notice you haven't said anything about ignoring the !votes of those editors with far less experience than me, who happen to agree with your oppose position. Funny how the gate can swing wide, opening the ranks of They Whose Opinions Count, so long as it's the right opinion.
You're well aware I never 'decried' anyone for simply liking this article better without the names. You know I said that consensus was valid and I'm happy to respect it. Don't you? Please admit that. My words are right here. Scroll up.
Didn't you casually dismiss the six FAs I cited as counterexamples with a terse " WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS"? But one additional example -- and it is only one of many -- Passengers of the RMS Titanic, now isn't mere "other stuff", and you've decided to go on the war path over it. I don't even know what the "changed a lot in the last ten years" point means. This was promoted to GA only four and a half years ago. Is that before or after this great change you speak of? I want to point out that the old books you favor only gather dust after they're published. They can't be de-published if they're wrong. An article that became a FA, FL or GA back before ten years ago, back when you say the standards were lax (which was also 4-1/2 years ago? When DID the standards become respectable? Another moving target.) has had to survive getting delisted all those years. In that sense, age can imply quality, since sooner or later time will catch up with those that don't meet current standards. But the point of these numerous counterexamples is that the global standard is not to suppress mention of the names of non-notable dead people, because of NOTMEMORIAL does not say what you claim it does, and the editors who wrote and reviewed all these GAs and FAs recognize that fact.
Sooooo... this GA review isn't in any way an attempt to make a WP:POINT, nor an acknowledgement that these counterexamples have any weight. Just pushin' that broom, doin' some cleanup. It's funny how you didn't mention to anyone over there on the Titanic list what brought you there. They probably don't need to know anything about your motives. It's all fine. No worries. Here's my question: if it is delisted, do you intend to drop your WP:OSE dismissal of counterexamples? Meaning you accept other counterexamples, like he six FAs I mentioned, and who knows how many GAs I could name. Or perhaps it won't be delisted, in which case is your plan to say you never gave any weight to counterexamples anyway? You probably want to wait until after you know the outcome of the GA review to decide which side of that fence you want to land on. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
...you whine...
Nice. Please try to be civil. --
Dennis Bratland (
talk)
21:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
There has been more than adequate proof given by many examples that the community does not read NOTMEMORIAL this way. The WP:LISTPEOPLE guidelines show a preference for only putting notable people on lists, but it's clear that's not an absolute, and there are many cases where editors accept lists with the names of non-notable people. Just because some of hem happen to be dead doesn't make it a memorial. There are lots of high-quality articles and lists that are valid exceptions to the preference for notables.
It makes no difference that it was considered as a WP:Featured list and not an article. The basic standards for an embedded list aren't essentially different than a stand alone list. What's important was the glaring lack of anyone saying "What! 1300 non-notable blacklinked names? It's not a memorial!" The WP:NOT restrictions against memorials date to 2004 in different words but the same basic meaning. It makes no sense that these GA and FL reviewers make no mention of the not-memorial policy. In 2007, the memorial point was rasied by several editors when the Titanic passenger list was up for deletion, but it didn't gain much support. Not all that many editors in 2007 read the NOTMEMORIAL policy that way. Nor did they in the 2008 FL reviews, or the 2014 GA review.
Some editors oppose naming non-notable casualties, in the spirit of NOTMEMORIAL, but there is no global consensus that it does say that.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
FAs, FLs, and GAs are always at risk of review and being delisted. The older it is, the more years it has survived the threat of delising. Many have been reviewed and updated to keep up with changing standards. Whereas an FA promoted last week has hardly stood the test of time. The thing is: we have so many examples. It doesn't hinge on a single one. We have cited close to a dozen already, and can cite more. What we know from this wide range of counterexamples is that the global consensus on WP:NOTMEMORIAL is not what you say it is. Policy does not forbid the thing you say it does. Many editors choose not to list these names, perhaps in the spirit of the NOTMEMORIAL, maybe for style or maintainability or sourcing reasons. Consensus already favors your goal here. What is gained by trying to drive this policy interpretation on and on like this? If your main goal really is to ensure the the policy is interpreted the way you prefer, why not make a proposal to reword NOTMEMORIAL to make that plain and easy to recognize? If you're right, there will be broad consensus for that. Going on fighting this way to win a battle you've already won, at least for the short term, is making Wikipedia a battleground. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:02, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
A footnote TO an article is not the same as a list IN an article.You can't skirt policy by sticking something in a footnote. The 2009 reviewers were well aware of the 2004 NOTMEMORIAL policy. The 10+ editors who supported it in the 2009 FA review could hardly fail to miss the unusual footnote and this edit summary by Thewolfchild calling it a "mistake" is condescending, uncharitable and fails to AGF. Click on the names of the editors (OK, the one editor who didn't even read it wasn't helping, I'll give you that one) and consider the caliber of editors here. You might disagree with them, but don't call them fools. We have here another compelling piece of evidence that many, many editors do not believe NOTMEMORIAL applies to article or list content, only to article creation/deletion, and this has been true as long as the policy existed. Yes, many editors are adamantly certain that the policy does apply, and that is a valid opinion, but it is not the official last word. It's obvious that Wikipedia has never settled this question, and you can't expect everyone to act as if it is settled. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
'Can we stop now? per WP:SNOW. This has turned into nothing but bickering. It's clear the opposition the list is overwhelming. I agree with the last arguemnt that none of the FAs have simple lists of casualties; what makes their use of the names of murder victims or accident casualties encyclopedic is that they are presented in prose with details and context that makes it clear that it's more than just a list of names. A naked bulleted list is easily mistaken for some kind of memorial or indiscriminate collection of data. Shortly, I or someone else can boldly add a revised prose version that presents the information fully fleshed out in that way, much like the FAs mentioned, and we can see how everyone feels about that. Until that time, the current discussion ready to stick a fork in it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I’m done here. You don’t need to obsess over content you haven’t even seen yet. When or if we come to that, you can go try to convene a tribunal to have me dunked or burned for disruption. My suggestion to you is to stop trying to scare people away from editing. Anyone may edit Wikipedia and attempting ownership of articles is actual disruption. — Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Bus stop: What "encyclopaedic value" do you feel these names have? How are they pertinent? (except to those few who might know them) and we certainly do have a policy prohibiting this, see WP:NOTOBITUARY. - wolf 15:23, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
My point is, you have to cut people some slack here. If nobody else can say specifically what we're trying to do here, you can't' be harsh with one editor who does their best to define it, broadly.
Essays like WP:Readers first and WP:Writing better articles represent a wide swath of editors whose goal is to meet the reader's needs, and advice like "provide context for the reader" means, for many, not leaving the reader hanging when you have facts like the names of the seven casualties that you could give them. It's a valid point of view for an editor to have.
I know you're certain policy forbids listing casualty names, and many editors agree with you. But many editors disagree, and they have been disagreeing over this for 14 years. Read the debates. NOTMEMORIAL has never been revised to clearly state whether it does nor does not restrict content within articles. If untold editors have for so many years been unable to settle this, you can't be so strident in condemning anyone who is of the faction that sees the memorial policy in the same light as WP:NNC. They are just as entitled to their opinion as you. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Why would readers expect these 7 names yet not the names of millions of soldiers? The first obvious reason is that 7 names is trivial, while five million is impossible. In the 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash, Lt. Col. Ken Huston was as passive a victim as the 7 sailors here. Unlike others on the air crew, there's no evidence he played any role in the chain of events, or had any special ability or specific duty to have prevented it. Other than maybe he could have said "Gee, this entire base knows Col. Holland is a cowboy whose going to get us killed, yet we look the other way." But anyone at Fairchild could have said the same. Then again, any sailor on the USS Fitzgerald could have said, "Gee, are we getting a little lax on our whole situational awareness thing?" The point is, the article needs to name three of the crew, and it would look awkward to pointedly fail to name the fourth crew member. It's only one guy, why not give us the whole list? WP:LISTPEOPLE gives "completeness" as one reason to include non-notable names on a list of notable people, WP:CSC says entire lists of non-notable names are allowed, but if someone did make a stand alone list of these seven names, that guideline would tell us to merge it here. Where it belongs.
Nobody reads an article about WWII thinking any such thing about the millions of casualties. Reader expectations are a factor, although in this case it's the evidence contained in the sources I cited that is what's compelling.
Short version: just because policy doesn't forbid something doesn't make it mandatory. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Dennis Bratland: Sorry, but you are the last person here that should be accusing anyone of "bludgeoning" or "sealioning". But I'll tell you what; I will stop posting here, right now, if you will too. We've said enough, right? So you make those last 3 consecutive, lengthy posts your last ones here and I'll make this post my last. All you have to do to show you're in agreement, is not post here any further. That's easy, right... ? - wolf 21:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm addressing this to Ad Orientem and Crook1. You can't say NOTEVERYTHING without some supplementary explanation. NOTMEMORIAL is about the creation of articles on non-notable individuals—it is not about the listing of names in an article on a notable topic. I'm unable to understand and you are not providing a simple explanation in your own words as to why you apparently feel strongly a version such as this is unacceptable. Please note the "Casualties" section. This is entirely informative and entirely on topic. Bus stop ( talk) 17:28, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This is a courtesy notification for interested editors. I have opened a discussion regarding victims lists which may be found here. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 15:27, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This from the BBC is interesting. Touch screens partly blame and to be phased out. Mjroots ( talk) 16:38, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
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I've reverted the deletion of the names of the U.S. Navy sailors killed in the incident, and here's why. The reason given in the edit summary was WP:NOTMEMORIAL, which doesn't apply here: it forbids "personal web pages, file storage areas, dating services, memorial pages, and content for projects unrelated to Wikipedia"; it nowhere enjoins a list, within a well-regarded article about a notable event, of those who died in that event. Moreover, the deaths of the sailors are the main reason this incident is notable; a brief, factual list of who died is crucial detail without which this article would be incomplete. PRRfan ( talk) 20:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Accusing any of us of having a conflict of interest without evidence is a violation of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and WP:Assume good faith guidelines. Please do not repeat this accusation without evidence. Notability is irrelevant.
The only real reason to remove this is if consensus supports removal. From what I can tell, no such consensus exists. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Here is selection of some Featured articles about similar incidents. FAs are, by strong consensus of qualified judges, examples of Wikipedia's best content, and numerous editors verify that the articles strictly adhere to all policies and guidelines:
You can either read the words of the guidelines, which clearly apply to the creation of articles, not the mention of facts within articles, or you can learn by example, and see that this meets the rigors criteria of the WP:FA selection process. Either way, it's valid, and you need to come up with a better reason if you want to delete the names. If you think its better to have the names in prose rather than a bulleted list, I tend to agree. Should a link to a jpeg of a grave marker be cited as a footnote? No. We have other, better sources to support this.
If only you weren’t struggling to hard to be right in the face of all evidence to the contrary, you’d have noticed I already responded to Bri. I’m still waiting on you to provide some reliable sources. Parsecboy ( talk) 22:20, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help)The veracity of the seven names isn't in dispute. You're arguing that they lack gravitas, yet we've given you a long list of FAs, all weighty with gravitas: 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash, 1940 Brocklesby mid-air collision, 1968 Thule Air Base B-52 crash, 1982 British Army Gazelle friendly fire incident, Moors murders, Whitechapel murders. You've been given august naval histories that also list this very type of information.
Your objections have been satisfied. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
If we can't go by the rules at WP:RS, then what rules can we go by? Tell us what the criteria are for a true naval historian. Then we can test whether or not one of these learned sages ever does this thing that you say they never do. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
It is only a game though. WP:RS doesn't say we can only cite PhDs in history, and third, fourth, tenth opinions are going to converge on the old standby: we already have a perfectly good set of guidelines for what is and isn't a reliable source. There's no reason why all the editors on this article have to work with your made-up restrictions. It will be amusing to cite PhDs in history who specialize in naval history who have listed all the casualties of an incident, and see if you think of reasons why the are not true PhDs of naval history. We'll see. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Tell me, was that casualty list an internal Navy record? You do know that Morison was working for the Navy, right (and was in fact a commissioned officer)? If so, why do you think that is at all relevant? Parsecboy ( talk) 10:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Since we don't seem to be reaching consensus, I've asked for other opinions on this sourcing issue from the Military History Wikiproject. ☆ Bri ( talk) 01:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
For me, the problem is we have a bulleted list with no context. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections points out that a garbage dump section or context-free list (trivia, pop culture, misc) makes poor articles for organizational reasons, not because of the content itself. You fix that by moving the content into context, and fleshing it out in prose, using information such as that given in the NYT here, as well as other sources in the list above. So we should put a prose rewrite out there, and discuss that on its merits. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Reliable indicate their deaths are important. A lot of what we have here is editors who want to do as they please rather than be guided by what the sources give us. I don't arbitrarily discount whole swaths of citations that meet WP:RS. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
As I said, this probably requires the actual text to be put in the article so that everyone can see it. It's not helping to only talk vaguely about what it should say. But you can see it in the sources above. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 04:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
The attempts to cite policy saying we aren't allowed to say their names have not been convincing. They depend on a tortured reading of the guidelines and a lot of Wikilawyering. It seems like if Wikipedia really had a restriction against listing the names of casualties, it would say so plainly, and we wouldn't see such a large number of FAs (not to mention GAs) that are apparently unaware of this supposed restriction. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's a question for those who favor including the names: what exactly does a list of names provide for readers that is not already provided by a statement along the lines of "seven sailors were killed and three were injured in the accident."? Which is to say, what exactly is the purpose for including the names? Nobody has answered this, as far as I can tell. Some have argued that the information is useful, but no one has actually explained how it is useful. Parsecboy ( talk) 17:02, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"what exactly does a list of names provide". I want to note that you are italicizing the word "exactly" and I want to point out that this is unknowable. How would we know a reader's purposes in accessing this article? I don't have preconceptions about what this article should be. My role is to provide a reader with information relevant to a given subject area. I am willing to omit information—but only for good reason. Bus stop ( talk) 17:28, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"I want to know what meaning is conveyed to readers by a list of names."This is unknowable. I am not omniscient. But we are not tasked with knowing what meaning is conveyed to readers by information in an article. We are tasked with ascertaining that it is relevant, verifiable, etc. This information, contained in the "Casualties" section is relevant and verifiable, is it not? Bus stop ( talk) 18:10, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"Since we're struggling to determine how the names are relevant to readers, that might be a clue that we should leave them out."No, you are struggling. I am not struggling. I don't have preconceptions about the uses to which readers put articles. My role is to provide information. Once again: that information must be reliably sourced, it must be within the scope of the article, and it must not be disallowed or inadvisable for some reason.
"I’ve effectively already told you why I don’t want the names in the article."You have told me that you are "struggling to determine how the names are relevant to readers". That is not a reason to omit this information. You do not know why a reader has come to this article or what information is important to them. Information is included or omitted for reasons. Those reasons have to be articulated, at least in the case of a dispute, such as this. I think there is a burden on you to say why this version of the article is problematic. Of course I am referring to the section of the article with the section heading "Casualties". The standard way we build articles is by addition. "Subtraction" plays a role but given the fact that your initiative is to expunge all mention of the names of the deceased, I have to ask you about your rationale for wanting to do so. Were the information in the "Casualties" section extensive I would agree it should be trimmed back. But even then I would not support entire removal of such information. That is what I am asking you about—why remove even the bare mention of the names? These are the 7 people who died. How do you arrive at the conclusion that even their names should not be mentioned? Bus stop ( talk) 23:27, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
"You need to provide a convincing reason to include the information."It is within the scope of this article. You have to understand your own position. You are not arguing to reduce the amount of information on each decedent. WP:NOTEVERYTHING tells you with crystal clarity: "Verifiable and sourced statements should be treated with appropriate weight." Your argument is that this information should be omitted entirely. Your position is not that some of the sappy and sentimental material pertaining to some of the decedents needs to be trimmed back. You haven't said what is wrong with this edit. It contains information that is within the scope of this article and it is not overly extensive. The reader comes to the article for information and you are arguing that we should not give them information. Why should no information on the identities of the deceased be included? Bus stop ( talk) 00:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
"it does nothing to enhance the reader’s understanding of the topic". The topic of course is "USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision". Seven fatalities occurred. The identities of the 7 deceased individuals fits squarely within the topic of this article. I don't know how you are trying to "enhance the reader’s understanding of the topic" by omitting relevant material. If you were saying there was too much material on the deceased that could be a valid argument, although I would disagree with it. But to entirely omit all mention of the identities of the deceased—that makes no sense to me. This is the version I support. It provides information (in the "Casualties" section) on the deceased. I think what I am arguing for is enhancing the reader’s understanding of the topic and I think the version linked-to above enhances the reader's understanding of the topic. Bus stop ( talk) 19:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
"They are not useful to readers."Stop pretending. You do not know what is "useful to readers." Bus stop ( talk) 15:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Editing policy doesn't push the burden entirely on those who wish to keep or on those who wish to delete content. The core policies don't take sides between deletionists and inclusionists.
This brings us back to this: you should directly address the actual arguments for why this improves the article. Where are those reasons given? [1] [2] [3] [4], to cite some examples. There are others. You can just say, no, I'm unconvinced by all that, and drop it. But if you want to go on debating, then debate the actual arguments that assert why this information adds value to the article.
Re-posting NOTEVERYTHING and NOTMEMORIAL yet again isn't going to be any more effective now than the previous eight times it was posted. Repeatedly demanding other read those two sections has gotten you nowhere, so why keep saying it? I think you should rest your case, but if you won't, please respond to the assertions that were made. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
There has been some edit-warring, the page has been locked, a 3P0 has been posted... yet the debate rages on. Perhaps if we were to gauge consensus with a straw-poll, then an uninvolved admin can close this discussion, unlock the page, the consensus can be implemented and everyone can move on to more productive endeavors. For the uninitiated, people should state whether they "support" inclusion of the names, or "oppose" inclusion, and add any relevant policies & guidelines with their !vote. - wolf
A basic, natural question about any deadly event is: who died?" - More like "How many died?". The names are irrelevant, unless you happen to know one of them, but even then this is not an obituary page, it's an encyclopaedia article... something that you and Mr. Bratland seem to continually overlook. - wolf 21:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
"This is not an obituary."Of course this is not an obituary. I don't see anyone suggesting this article may be an obituary. This is an article on an incident at sea in which fatalities took place. Why wouldn't the names of the dead be pertinent to this article? Bus stop ( talk) 16:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Bludgeoning an editor for their !vote because they didn't give enough justification almost borders on sealioning. You could reply (once), "You say per which arguments you're basing your !vote on'; are you saying support per the reasons given above, or other reasons?" If they don't answer you the first time, keep in mind that they don't have to. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"there are a lot of good arguements on both sides for inclusion and removal"There are no arguments for removal, at least none yet presented. We don't accept that inapplicable policies and guidelines have any bearing on this discussion. Therefore we are discussing the merits and disadvantages of inclusion. We've had discussions here and here that addressed the same question we are addressing. Policies and guidelines do not prohibit the inclusion of the information under discussion. The names of the deceased are clearly within the scope of this article. If a group of editors want the names of the deceased to be removed from this article it might not be a bad idea to articulate a reason why this information should be removed—otherwise it shouldn't be removed. It is not true that "are a lot of good arguements...[have been presented for]...removal". I have yet to hear an argument for removal. This is a long discussion. Perhaps I missed it. Can you tell me any argument for removal? I've seen tons of inapplicable acronyms tossed about. But policies and guidelines certainly do not prohibit this sort of information. Bus stop ( talk) 15:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
I never said inclusion is required. WP:CONPOL is the relevant guide, and as I said back on November 4, "The only real reason to remove this is if consensus supports removal."
That's where WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is relevant: if the consensus is that the article is simply better, then that's a good enough reason. But all of these claims that policy or guidelines demand it are invalid.
The only time inclusion of anything is required by policy is WP:WEIGHT or other NPOV issues. Based on how frequently our sources recite the full list of seven names, their ranks, and ages, and frequently home towns and other biographical details, you could almost argue that WP:WEIGHT requires or at least encourages us to follow suit. It's hard to conjure up neutrality from nothing, especially hard for editors who disagree to pull it out of thin air. But if we agree that we will be guided by whatever our sources think is the right amount of weight to give aspects of a story, then we have something to fashion neutrality out of, and we have an objective reality separate from the combination of personalities that happen to be editing an article. If that is our principle, than in any alternate reality with different POVs of editors collaborating, they will all tend to write the same article, since neutrality isn't splitting the difference between the editors, but between the sources. The sources include the names, so WP:WEIGHT at least suggest, and perhaps even requires, we include them.
But if the consensus is we don't like it, that's fine. I don't think the editors here have given the necessary consideration to the alternate version I outlined, with the biographical details in prose rather than a bulleted list. Hopefully that can be done and maybe consensus will support it.
I'm probably also going to make a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL to be more in line with WP:NLISTITEM/ WP:NOTEWORTHY, because too many ediotors are citing WP:NOTMEMORIAL when only WP:CONPOL should apply. If we want policy to go so far as to suppress the names of casualties, meaning deleting hundreds of " list of people killed" articles (or deleting everything but blue linked names), and delete the names from the FAs I mentioned, then that policy change needs to be proposed and stated explicitly. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
among the most nonsensical things I've heard in this discussion" does not further the discussion, and actually degrades it. It is uncivil, and one of the points of your comments I find obnoxious. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
gauge consensus". ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 20:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Hey, Dennis and I have agreed to stop posting here. If you, and everyone else that has already !voted also stops posting, then we can let the page die down and a final consensus to develop. - wolf 22:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"I have agreed to stop posting"But what you have failed to do is give either a policy-based reason that the names of the victims should be omitted or even a reason in your own words in support of your wish to omit the names of the deceased. You've asked what "encyclopedic" means. In this context it means pertinent or relevant. The names are entirely relevant to this article. This is an article on an incident in which there were fatalities. The reader of this article should be apprised of the names of the decedents. I don't argue that extensive information be provided for each of the decedents. I only argue that rudimentary information be provided and probably in list form. The reader should be able to cut-and-paste the names if they wish to do further research. Bus stop ( talk) 23:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Consider: an editor goes to the article cat and deletes all instances of the letter 'C', arguing "Just because the letter C exists, that's not a reason to put it in every article! WP:NOTEVERYTHING!" Well, we know NOTEVERYTHING is not an all-purpose excuse to delete whatever you want. The counter argument is this: "We didn't use the letter C in this article for no reason other than the fact that C exists. We need that letter. You can't spell cat without it." NOTEVERYTHING says "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful." When you delete these 7 names and cite NOTEVERYTHING as the reason, you're saying we added those facts solely because they are true or useful. A straw man argument, avoiding the actual reasons, instead picking on an easier target: the inane belief that we must include the names merely because we know them.
If I added a fact like "a sailor wore size 10 shoes" and insisted it had to be here because it was true and well-sourced NOTEVERYTHING would apply. When you cite NOTEVERYTHING, you're equating their names, ages, ranks, etc. as being as irrelevant as their shoe size.
It suggests a deep, fundamental lack of respect for those who don't agree with one's opinions, and this leads to this pitfall of not addressing actual arguments. My actual argument (above) is that this information is meaningful, that it distinguishes this event. Bri alluded to this in saying "ships don't sail themselves". This article isn't about two dead asteroids colliding in a vacuum, it's about a human endeavor, a human activity. Not about a machine with no people involved. Who those people are makes a difference. If you want to dispute that, you'd need to look at the sources I mentioned which detail why it matters who these people are, and then argue that these individual facts about them as people make no difference. That it's all the same whether any other 7 people in the world were killed. It's all the same if 7 Rear Admirals from Boise were killed, or 7 seamen born in Indonesia were killed. You'd be saying "Who they are doesn't matter because [...]" That would be an actual counterargument, rather than a straw man that treats me like some kind of fool.
But maybe I really am as big a fool as you think I am. In that case, don't you think all your fellow editors could recoginze that without you bludgeoning the process by repeatedly haranguing me with your "nonsense!" ejaculations? A counter-argument that your fellow editors are unaware of is a good contribution. Labeling others' words as "nonsensical" isn't helping. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
We already have articles specifically about the ships themselves, USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal. USS Fitzgerald and MV ACX Crystal collision is an article about an event, not about two ships, which are covered as the main subject elsewhere.
I see this desire to expunge the human element from articles across Wikipedia. Editors like to geek out about technology and big metal machines, and they don't want to get into all this squishy emotional and humanistic stuff. It's totally cool if an editor chooses to only add content about hardware to articles, but to go so far as to insist no one else can fully round out the subject is unjustifiable. One of the most obvious reasons is that this contradicts the sources. The sources don't describe this event purely as a cold physical occurrence when two inanimate machines interacted out in the ocean. The sources put people front and center. I hope no one would suggest a historian with PhD specializing in naval history would a fatal collision like this purely in physical terms, and they would never say "this is only about the ships, not the people."
But I understand what I'm up against. I recognized from the beginning the endemic Wikipedia prejudice favoring the specs and features of the toys, and not the people to make them go.
"I find it rich..." Who cares what you find rich? Does it advance this discussion? Obviously not. I realize Admins are virtually never held accountable for their behavior, so this, too, is moot. But everyone here can see what you're doing. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:57, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
"That they died in the collision does not make them notable": Can we stop beating that dead horse? Nobody claimed they are notable. Notability is irrelevant to whether or not a fact or name may be mentioned in an article or list. It's incredibly tedious to keep having to bat away this red herring. I realize the limits of an WP:OSE argument, but the idea that you my not list non-notable names is rubbished by the endless examples of Wikipedia's best content that does exactly that. The laughable special pleading that we can only compare this to warship collisions only underscores the weakness of the thinking here. We aren't required to list the names just because lots and lots and lots of FAs, FLs, and GAs do it, but we can be certain that Wikipedia has no policy or guideline saying it's forbidden.
It's OK if you don't like it. If consensus is simply "the article is better without it", that's totally valid. I've said four, five times, that a naked bulleted list is not the way to go, and I understand why consensus opposes having the names in that form.
But you cannot insist that nobody may boldly try a different format. No matter how many times you chant "not memorial not memorial not memorial" or "not notable not notable not notable", those arguments continue to be irrelevant and invalid. This is a classic BRD use case: "local consensus differs from global consensus, and your goal is to apply global consensus." I don't know why ten or so editors with this odd point of view have converged on this article, but there is a mountain of evidence, mainly FAs and FLs, that there is no global consensus against mentioning the names of non-notable casualties. I believe a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL will verify that. Disagree? Then you can smugly watch my proposal go down in flames. You don't need to prolong the debate here.
The BRD use case "people are talking past each other instead of getting down to brass tacks with concrete proposals" is especially relevant. I keep talking hypothetically about a future prose rewrite, to which an appropriate response is "yeah, whatever, I'll tell you what I think when I see it". Instead, several editors want to sit here and debate me about even attempting this hypothetical content nobody has even seen. Warning me that I would "disrupt Wikipedia" if I were to add such a paragraph! Really? The bare list sat here for a year and a half, and did its existence "disrupt Wikipedia"? It's not libel, a privacy violation, a copyright violation. Yet editors are slavering at the thought, ready to pounce on the revert button. Why? What if I added the content in a month or whatever, and you calmly left it there for even one week? Allowed others to take a look, while merely commenting on the talk page? You could post, "nope, still don't like it. What do others say?" If others agree, remove it after a reasonable interval.
The sad truth is I'm sure several editors will rush to revert within seconds, and will die on that hill if need be, edit warring to the limit of the 3RR, because they can't stand to let a proposed version be seen for a few days. What does that say about them? There's a reason WP:Editing policy has a whole paragraph, WP:NOTPERFECT, encouraging you to not jump on the revert button so fast. Try to fix it. Give others time to see if they can fix it. Who knows? Maybe they'll surprise you. Maybe the global consensus allowing non-notable casualty names will make itself known. And if not, you'll get to delete it in due course. It's just weird to see this kind of panic when I say I'm planning on trying a revised, reformatted, and expanded rewrite of the rejected bare list. Why the panic of a hypothetical paragraph? I really think this obsession with geeking out over hardware and excluding humanistic aspects is pathological. Whatever it is, something ain't right.
Still disagree? Then put the page on your watchlist and pounce if/when anybody puts a revised version out there. WP:ANI is ready and waiting for your reports of this hypothetical dastardly disruption. Until then, chill. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Because what, is central to who, cares about what? Look, we are not in the dramatic narrative business, even if it is non-fictional, we are in the encyclopaedia business. Now, you wrote a pretty lengthy reply, but I'll tell you just what stood out to me from the the entire post; the words "...a proposal to tighten up the wording of WP:NOTMEMORIAL...
". I read that and immediately thought "fuck, yeah!". Obviously for not the reasons you meant though. I'm thinking; "let's tighten up wp:memorial to eliminate all lists of non-notable victims, whether bulleted or in prose, and put and end to all this. Then use the list of examples in your post as a start; RMS Titanic. the 1994 B-52 crash, and every other one we can find and, clear out all these unnecessary obituaries, (especially the
List of every single personal killed during the 9/11 attacks, all two thousand, nine hundred and oh, wait... ) -
wolf
23:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
...something you would know if you'd been an active contributor that long, Dennis.I've never encountered an Admin who spews such petty, unprofessional, schoolyard taunts, textbook examples of policy violations -- and we've all known some pretty unprofessional, uncivil Admins. I shudder to think how many noobs you've driven away with your elitist gatekeeping. I can only imagine how much abuse you heap on those with even less than my paltry 13 years, 55,000 edits, three GAs, 31 DYKs. I notice you haven't said anything about ignoring the !votes of those editors with far less experience than me, who happen to agree with your oppose position. Funny how the gate can swing wide, opening the ranks of They Whose Opinions Count, so long as it's the right opinion.
You're well aware I never 'decried' anyone for simply liking this article better without the names. You know I said that consensus was valid and I'm happy to respect it. Don't you? Please admit that. My words are right here. Scroll up.
Didn't you casually dismiss the six FAs I cited as counterexamples with a terse " WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS"? But one additional example -- and it is only one of many -- Passengers of the RMS Titanic, now isn't mere "other stuff", and you've decided to go on the war path over it. I don't even know what the "changed a lot in the last ten years" point means. This was promoted to GA only four and a half years ago. Is that before or after this great change you speak of? I want to point out that the old books you favor only gather dust after they're published. They can't be de-published if they're wrong. An article that became a FA, FL or GA back before ten years ago, back when you say the standards were lax (which was also 4-1/2 years ago? When DID the standards become respectable? Another moving target.) has had to survive getting delisted all those years. In that sense, age can imply quality, since sooner or later time will catch up with those that don't meet current standards. But the point of these numerous counterexamples is that the global standard is not to suppress mention of the names of non-notable dead people, because of NOTMEMORIAL does not say what you claim it does, and the editors who wrote and reviewed all these GAs and FAs recognize that fact.
Sooooo... this GA review isn't in any way an attempt to make a WP:POINT, nor an acknowledgement that these counterexamples have any weight. Just pushin' that broom, doin' some cleanup. It's funny how you didn't mention to anyone over there on the Titanic list what brought you there. They probably don't need to know anything about your motives. It's all fine. No worries. Here's my question: if it is delisted, do you intend to drop your WP:OSE dismissal of counterexamples? Meaning you accept other counterexamples, like he six FAs I mentioned, and who knows how many GAs I could name. Or perhaps it won't be delisted, in which case is your plan to say you never gave any weight to counterexamples anyway? You probably want to wait until after you know the outcome of the GA review to decide which side of that fence you want to land on. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
...you whine...
Nice. Please try to be civil. --
Dennis Bratland (
talk)
21:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
There has been more than adequate proof given by many examples that the community does not read NOTMEMORIAL this way. The WP:LISTPEOPLE guidelines show a preference for only putting notable people on lists, but it's clear that's not an absolute, and there are many cases where editors accept lists with the names of non-notable people. Just because some of hem happen to be dead doesn't make it a memorial. There are lots of high-quality articles and lists that are valid exceptions to the preference for notables.
It makes no difference that it was considered as a WP:Featured list and not an article. The basic standards for an embedded list aren't essentially different than a stand alone list. What's important was the glaring lack of anyone saying "What! 1300 non-notable blacklinked names? It's not a memorial!" The WP:NOT restrictions against memorials date to 2004 in different words but the same basic meaning. It makes no sense that these GA and FL reviewers make no mention of the not-memorial policy. In 2007, the memorial point was rasied by several editors when the Titanic passenger list was up for deletion, but it didn't gain much support. Not all that many editors in 2007 read the NOTMEMORIAL policy that way. Nor did they in the 2008 FL reviews, or the 2014 GA review.
Some editors oppose naming non-notable casualties, in the spirit of NOTMEMORIAL, but there is no global consensus that it does say that.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
FAs, FLs, and GAs are always at risk of review and being delisted. The older it is, the more years it has survived the threat of delising. Many have been reviewed and updated to keep up with changing standards. Whereas an FA promoted last week has hardly stood the test of time. The thing is: we have so many examples. It doesn't hinge on a single one. We have cited close to a dozen already, and can cite more. What we know from this wide range of counterexamples is that the global consensus on WP:NOTMEMORIAL is not what you say it is. Policy does not forbid the thing you say it does. Many editors choose not to list these names, perhaps in the spirit of the NOTMEMORIAL, maybe for style or maintainability or sourcing reasons. Consensus already favors your goal here. What is gained by trying to drive this policy interpretation on and on like this? If your main goal really is to ensure the the policy is interpreted the way you prefer, why not make a proposal to reword NOTMEMORIAL to make that plain and easy to recognize? If you're right, there will be broad consensus for that. Going on fighting this way to win a battle you've already won, at least for the short term, is making Wikipedia a battleground. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:02, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
A footnote TO an article is not the same as a list IN an article.You can't skirt policy by sticking something in a footnote. The 2009 reviewers were well aware of the 2004 NOTMEMORIAL policy. The 10+ editors who supported it in the 2009 FA review could hardly fail to miss the unusual footnote and this edit summary by Thewolfchild calling it a "mistake" is condescending, uncharitable and fails to AGF. Click on the names of the editors (OK, the one editor who didn't even read it wasn't helping, I'll give you that one) and consider the caliber of editors here. You might disagree with them, but don't call them fools. We have here another compelling piece of evidence that many, many editors do not believe NOTMEMORIAL applies to article or list content, only to article creation/deletion, and this has been true as long as the policy existed. Yes, many editors are adamantly certain that the policy does apply, and that is a valid opinion, but it is not the official last word. It's obvious that Wikipedia has never settled this question, and you can't expect everyone to act as if it is settled. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
'Can we stop now? per WP:SNOW. This has turned into nothing but bickering. It's clear the opposition the list is overwhelming. I agree with the last arguemnt that none of the FAs have simple lists of casualties; what makes their use of the names of murder victims or accident casualties encyclopedic is that they are presented in prose with details and context that makes it clear that it's more than just a list of names. A naked bulleted list is easily mistaken for some kind of memorial or indiscriminate collection of data. Shortly, I or someone else can boldly add a revised prose version that presents the information fully fleshed out in that way, much like the FAs mentioned, and we can see how everyone feels about that. Until that time, the current discussion ready to stick a fork in it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I’m done here. You don’t need to obsess over content you haven’t even seen yet. When or if we come to that, you can go try to convene a tribunal to have me dunked or burned for disruption. My suggestion to you is to stop trying to scare people away from editing. Anyone may edit Wikipedia and attempting ownership of articles is actual disruption. — Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Bus stop: What "encyclopaedic value" do you feel these names have? How are they pertinent? (except to those few who might know them) and we certainly do have a policy prohibiting this, see WP:NOTOBITUARY. - wolf 15:23, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
My point is, you have to cut people some slack here. If nobody else can say specifically what we're trying to do here, you can't' be harsh with one editor who does their best to define it, broadly.
Essays like WP:Readers first and WP:Writing better articles represent a wide swath of editors whose goal is to meet the reader's needs, and advice like "provide context for the reader" means, for many, not leaving the reader hanging when you have facts like the names of the seven casualties that you could give them. It's a valid point of view for an editor to have.
I know you're certain policy forbids listing casualty names, and many editors agree with you. But many editors disagree, and they have been disagreeing over this for 14 years. Read the debates. NOTMEMORIAL has never been revised to clearly state whether it does nor does not restrict content within articles. If untold editors have for so many years been unable to settle this, you can't be so strident in condemning anyone who is of the faction that sees the memorial policy in the same light as WP:NNC. They are just as entitled to their opinion as you. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Why would readers expect these 7 names yet not the names of millions of soldiers? The first obvious reason is that 7 names is trivial, while five million is impossible. In the 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash, Lt. Col. Ken Huston was as passive a victim as the 7 sailors here. Unlike others on the air crew, there's no evidence he played any role in the chain of events, or had any special ability or specific duty to have prevented it. Other than maybe he could have said "Gee, this entire base knows Col. Holland is a cowboy whose going to get us killed, yet we look the other way." But anyone at Fairchild could have said the same. Then again, any sailor on the USS Fitzgerald could have said, "Gee, are we getting a little lax on our whole situational awareness thing?" The point is, the article needs to name three of the crew, and it would look awkward to pointedly fail to name the fourth crew member. It's only one guy, why not give us the whole list? WP:LISTPEOPLE gives "completeness" as one reason to include non-notable names on a list of notable people, WP:CSC says entire lists of non-notable names are allowed, but if someone did make a stand alone list of these seven names, that guideline would tell us to merge it here. Where it belongs.
Nobody reads an article about WWII thinking any such thing about the millions of casualties. Reader expectations are a factor, although in this case it's the evidence contained in the sources I cited that is what's compelling.
Short version: just because policy doesn't forbid something doesn't make it mandatory. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Dennis Bratland: Sorry, but you are the last person here that should be accusing anyone of "bludgeoning" or "sealioning". But I'll tell you what; I will stop posting here, right now, if you will too. We've said enough, right? So you make those last 3 consecutive, lengthy posts your last ones here and I'll make this post my last. All you have to do to show you're in agreement, is not post here any further. That's easy, right... ? - wolf 21:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm addressing this to Ad Orientem and Crook1. You can't say NOTEVERYTHING without some supplementary explanation. NOTMEMORIAL is about the creation of articles on non-notable individuals—it is not about the listing of names in an article on a notable topic. I'm unable to understand and you are not providing a simple explanation in your own words as to why you apparently feel strongly a version such as this is unacceptable. Please note the "Casualties" section. This is entirely informative and entirely on topic. Bus stop ( talk) 17:28, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This is a courtesy notification for interested editors. I have opened a discussion regarding victims lists which may be found here. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 15:27, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This from the BBC is interesting. Touch screens partly blame and to be phased out. Mjroots ( talk) 16:38, 12 August 2019 (UTC)