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Chesdovi needs to attempt a justification for all the tags added to this article today, or they will be removed. Can I please ask anyone commenting on this article overall to first review the external references section of the article, in particular:
Oncenawhile ( talk) 17:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Even though Chesdovi was mistaken in this instance, his general point is valid. Very few traditional Jewish sources use the name "Palestine". A few years ago I asked a friend who is an expert on this sort of thing, and he came up with these examples of "Palestine" or "Palestinians":
Zero talk 04:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
IP 74.240.225.109 has just added the following: "It is important to note that the root is traced to a meaning that means, "usurper" or "invader", and that the Biblical Phillistines did not refer to themselves by that name. This is how the term "invaders" is spelled in Hebrew: פולשים. It has the same F/P-L-S semetic root. It is a fact that is routinely ignored by Palestinian nationalists, who are either too ignorant, or afraid of the truth. In reality, it is beyond amusing that any modern people would choose to refer to themsleves as "invaders". Why on earth would you willingly refer to yourself in your own language, by a term that literally means "invaders", and was a deragatory term used by a non-Arab people to refer to another non-Arab people who are completely unrelated to you? That makes no sense.< http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php>" Can anyone provide a reputable source for any of this? Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:04, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This claim of the origin of the word "Philistine" (by Zionist propaganda) is not supported and only thrown out by "Biblical scholars" and even the root itself is not certain at all and can possibly mean migrant as well. The real scholarly view (putting aside so-called "Biblical scholars", an oxymoron to be sure) is the following that Philistine comes from "Jacobsohn and supported by others, is that the name derives from the attested Illyrian locality Palaeste, whose inhabitants would have been called Palaestīnī according to normal grammatical practice". And this fits with the other scholarly fact about the title Caphtor where the Philistines are said to be originally from according to the "Bible" that "Scholars variously identify the land of Caphtor with Cyprus and Crete and other locations in the eastern Mediterranean." Illyria is around the generic term eastern Mediterranean and the Philistines movements are impossible to document other than again somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean so it could very possibly be a Philistine migration from Illyria (the Balkans, modern day Albania, etc) were they started out and then say Crete or Cyprus and then to Canaan (Palestine).
Also being called something by someone else and having the word stick is not "unique" at all in world history anyway even IF this propaganda claim the person above posted from an infamous Zionist propaganda source was supposedly "true" at all. Just see for an unrelated example (that makes this point) the word "Christian" being something enemies of what the New Testament says were the Apostles of Jesus, first called the "Christians" as an insult in Antioch and the name stuck clearly Christianity; Acts 11:26- ... And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)
And then just finally to conclude, Palestinians are shown to be mostly related to the old indigenous people of the land (in this Canaan, Palestine, Israel, etc) as even Israeli academics and geneticists have largely acknowledged themselves http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2000/10/30-01.html. The whole issue about Palestinians being Semites or Arabs today has to do with them having been Arabized culturally and linguistically, regardless of where the Philistines (who most certainly have given DNA to the Palestinians as the Palestinians have the DNA of all the people who have lived in the region throughout history be they Philistines, Canaanites, Israelites, Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, Mamluks, Kurdish Ayyubids, etc etc). If one holds say Jewish people to the statements this piece of Zionist propaganda mentiond above gives, then even according to Zionist mythology and the "Bible"; the Hebrews (putting aside nobody on earth can prove if they are descended from the Biblical Abraham much less most Jews who have lived with and intermarried in Europe in particular for centuries) the Hebrews themselves won't have originally been Semites as Abraham is said in religious lore (in particular the Bible) to have come from Ur (Iraq) which was not a Semitic place at that point either. Just see the Sumerian language in old Mesopotamia it wasn't Semitic! Meaning even Abraham, the Patriarch admired by three world religions, would not have been Semitic himself even and would've had to undergo a process of being turned Semitic culturally and linguistically (as terms like Arab, Jewish, are not "races" they are cultures and linguistic groupings, obviously more so Arab then a term like Jewish which just denotes a follower of Judaism and one can convert to the religion of Judaism, etc) Historylover4 ( talk) 02:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
For a start where are your sources for this claim of Palestinians being decedents of Peleshet or Philistines that you mention above? Secondly your use of the term "Zionist propaganda" is rather telling seen as anyone who supports the self determination of Jews in the world is technically a Zionist. For your information there is no Cabal of "Zionist Elders" and Zionism is only a dirty word to Islamists and antisemites on both the extreme right and the extreme left. 82.25.201.64 ( talk) 22:37, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
This is the biggest load of islamist propaganda I have ever seen. 69.22.242.52 ( talk) 06:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC) Regardless of being Zionist or not, the fact the root PLŜ comes from "INVADER" is even supported by the Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%A9. -- Wolfman12405 ( talk) 01:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
The root of the name "philistines" comes from PLŠ (פלש)
which in both Canaanite and Hebrew (a Canaanite dialect) means: "Invader" (פולש). [1] ANYONE WHO SPEAKS HEBREW, YES EVEN NON-ZIONISTS, KNOWS THIS! all u haters - Try to hold ur breath if it makes u feel uncomfortable, because NON-ZIONIST GENETICISTS have also found that the "palestinians" are not homogenous group and that most of them are identical to arabians unlike Jews, Druze and lebanese for instance.-- Wolfman12405 ( talk) 03:59, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
H6428 palas; a primitive root; to roll (in dust):— roll self, wallow self.
It seems more likely that the Egyptians were referring to the Peleshet as the 'Sea People'. An unknown people who came from the Aegean, often taking prisoners, or engaged in wars with Egypt and only really known about due to Egyptian records. There is no real connection proven between the Peleshet and later Philistines, if they even exist.
I find it troubling that the source for the term is the Tanakh.
For example, a page from the online Jewish Library "then the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet, which appears in the Tanakh no fewer than 250 times. Roughly translated to mean rolling or migratory, the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt – the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people – more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguistically or historically with Arabia – who conquered the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israel and Gaza in the 12th Century BCE." [2]
The article even contradicts the page on Philistines. The reference and usage here is tenuous at best and should be removed, since its really just an attempt to place Palestinians in Egypt as an alternative to a well-known foundation story surrounding the Hebrews and the Bible in order to fulfil the objectives of replacement theology. See also Supercessionism. Ethnopunk ( talk) 15:00, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
References
Genesis 21:34 refers to Abraham dwelling in Palestine, used to refer to the entire country, and should be referenced as it would predate the rest of these sources. 129.215.130.11 ( talk) 13:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Correction: Genesis 21.34 refers to Abraham living "in the land of the PLISHTIM for many days".
In Genesis 21.32, Abraham and Abimelekh having "made a treaty in Beer-sheba", Abimelekh then "left [Beersheba] and returned to the land of the PLISHTIM".
Ts-lin09 (
talk)
08:30, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
There may be a lack of context problem with the way the pre-Hadrian "Palestine" uses are presented. While it's interesting to give a complete (and they do look fairly complete) list of Greek/Roman citations, they could mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian, it wasn't. It's misleading that Strabo's non-use of the term is not mentioned given Strabo is the main Herod-the-Great era geographical source on the area.
“Palestine” did not come into official use until the early second century ad, when the emperor Hadrian decided to rename the province of Judaea; for its new name he chose “ Syria Palaestina.”49 The new name took hold. It is found thereafter in inscriptions, on coins, and in numerous literary texts.50 Thus Arrian (7.9.8, Indica 43.1) and Appian (Syr. 50), who lived in the second century ad, and Cassius Dio (eg, 38.38.4, 39.56.6), who lived in the third, referred to the region as “Palestine.” And in the rabbinic literature “Palestine” was used as the name of the Roman province.
— The Hellenistic settlements in Syria, the Red Sea Basin, and North Africa 2006 p37 Getzel M. Cohen
The article needs to show more clearly that "Palestine" jumped from not being a very common name for the region to the common name with Hadrian. Inserting a comment on Strabo would be a good way to do that. In ictu oculi ( talk) 03:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
What I've seen in this historical account is an evidence based record of what this land has been called in a timeline throughout history, not to "mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian" as what you're saying is that there is evidence in the article that states that the name Palestine was a common name pre-Hadrian, show where in the article that makes a clear indication of someone making a case that the name Palestine was a common name pre-Hadrian as all I see is an evidence based article, not an opinionated, preachy one.
You must also understand that what you're saying is misleading as you're making a statement that is not backed by evidence, that "mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian, it wasn't." do you have any evidence that supports that the name "Palestine" was not a common name of this land pre-Hadrian? If not, was this only based on your opinion? As if you make this sort of statement without evidence you could mislead people into believing something that is not true, as what if many people of this area referred to this area in their dialect as their variation of the word "Palestine"? Is your concern with only the Greek/Roman or do you also disagree with the Assyrian dialect "Pa-la-áš-tu", "pa-la-as-ta-a-a" or ancient Egyptian "P-r-s-t"? Can you give a good argument to delete most of the article to only show Hadrian and onward or have another opinion that should be apart of this article? Maybe you want to add to the article that "We don't mean to mislead you to believe that this land was called "Palestine" pre-Hardian? What's your goal? Tell us it and maybe it can be achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkL22137 ( talk • contribs) 17:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There are two references to "Lewis, 1993" but no such source is identified. Similarly for "Kaegi, 1995", "Sharon, 1988", "Marshall Cavendish, 2007", "Lassner and Troen, 2007" and "Room, 1997". Maybe others too. I guess some things got lost in past page splitting. "Studies in Hellenistic Judaism :Louis H. Feldman" needs page number. Zero talk 12:48, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
.< http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php> Most of my previous information's are given here as well. If my previous sources are questioned (although my previous source provided much deeper perspective to the etymology of the name Palestine, I can use this source too. I don't think that I should agree in self-censorship, as I gave valid links to all facts mentioned.As the books are currently unavailable I will replece part — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tritomex ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
palestinefacts.org is a self-published web site that fails WP:RS. We can't use it here, and we aren't allowed to copy sources from places like that either. [1] is entirely out of the question as it is a wikipedia mirror. There is only one thing that needs fixing in the article as far as I can see. When the Hebrew usage of the word Peleshet is mentioned in the lead, the word "Philistines" doesn't appear; that seems to be a mistake. Zero talk 21:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
By my count, Tritomex has violated WP:1RR three times, and has refused to attempt to gain consensus for the proposed addition. I would note that I warned the editor two months ago about WP:ARBPIA. Oncenawhile ( talk) 10:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
There have been repeated attempts to add an "etymology" section to this article. The proposed section says that the word Palestine means the Biblical Philistines, and that these Philistines were not Arabs or Semites. The section does not make any sense in this article for the following reasons: (1) This whole article is about etymology. Having it begin with a section on one person's interpretation of where the word came from is absurd (2) The sources being the Seattle Times and Palestine Facts are not experts in etymology, they are experts in politics (3) This article is not the right place to talk about who the Philistines were, where they came from, or what they called themselves (4) Focusing only on the biblical interpretation, versus the whole history of the word (which began in Egypt, before the bible was written) is not NPOV. Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Rabbinical literature is full of apophthegms that express the positive passion of the teachers of Israel for the soil, the air, the water, the physical being of the national land. 'Whosoever walks four cubits in Palestine is assured of the world to come.' 'It is better to dwell in a Palestine desert than to live in a land of plenty abroad.' 'To live in the land of Israel outweighs all the commands of the Torah.' 'The air of Palestine makes men wise.' 'Even the chatter of Palestine is worthy of study.' 'Palestine is the microcosm of the world.' 'Rabbi Abah used to kiss the rocks of Palestine. Rabbi Chazah used to roll in the dust of Palestine.' The whole doctrine of the rabbis in regard to the national home is summed up in the sentence: 'God said to Moses, "the Land is me and Israel is dear to me. I will bring Israel who is dear to me to Land that is dear to me.' Here is the triple thread which is Judaism -- God, the Jewish people, the Jewish land. What the rabbis taught and felt, the Jewish people believed and felt. Quotes from here should be added [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.50.114.94 ( talk) 19:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
At a minimum, the Pausanias reference seems to be inaccurate, since Pausanias referred to Judea as being "above" Palestine (i.e. in the hills inland from the coast), and not "in" Palestine. The Greek words huper tês Palaistinês υπερ της Παλαιστινης "above Palaistine" can be seen at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159%3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D9 . As far as I can tell, among those who had specific knowledge of the area (as opposed to those dependent on secondhand reports from coastal-sailing merchants, at a time when Judea did not extend to the coast), the word Παλαιστινη / Palaestina predominantly referred to the coastal plain area (old Philistia) before 135 A.D. AnonMoos ( talk) 22:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Re your quote, I have added a translation used by two unrelated specialist scholars in to the article. Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The article seems to be completely rewritten (and have a different title) since I left the remarks above, but it still omits the fact that Pausanias refers to the Hebrews as being "on" or "above" Palestine (i.e. living in the hills inland from the coast -- the coastal plain being the commonest meaning of the term Peleshet/Palaistine before 135 A.D., especially among those who knew the area firsthand). See the Perseus@Tufts link above... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
All references to Zionist propaganda must be removed as deeply offensive. 'Zionists' do not publish false information. The Torah commands the Jews to not bear false witness, the Koran commands Moslem's to use Al Teqiyya (false witness)in the furtherance of Islam. Who would you believe? John, London, UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.167.78 ( talk) 20:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
User:Mainstreamegypt added a new source ( here in "A Commentary on Herodotus") in order to justify the statement: "Scholars are divided on whether his usage of the term only refered to the coastal strip (Philistia)".
Having read the source, it is silent on this question, and the user is making an WP:OR argument from silence. Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it is illegal to use "" tags in wikipedia article title. Anyways shouldn't the name be Etymology of Palestine ? Greyshark09 ( talk) 20:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
GreyShark you had it right, Etymology of Palestine. -- Etymology is the correct term = "A history of a word". Please punish AnonMoos. He is trying to hide the existence of this page and corrupt wikipedia, on many "Palestine" talk pages, he is posting that Hadrian invented the name Palestine after exiling the Jews 135CE. AnonMoos in on a Religious Crusade to keep this article from coming to light. -- 20:19, 31 January 2014 User:DigDeep4Truth
The sentence from Lassner and Troen in the lead "Jacob Lassner and Selwyn Ilan Troen offer a different view, writing that Jund Filastin, the full name for the administrative province under the rule of the Arab caliphates, was traced by Muslim geographers back to the Philistines of the Bible" is incorrect / misleading. They do not "offer a different view" to that of Moshe Sharon. The source states simply that Muslim geographers made the etymological connection to the Philistines, but the source does not say either (a) that this connection was made at the time they first started calling the region Jund Filastin, or (b) that the making of this connection was the reason they called it Jund Filastin. Frankly, we don't even know who the Muslim geographers being referred to were and / or when they wrote.
Removing the WP:OR synthesis of "offer a different view" makes the sentence redundant, as the fact that some geographers who happened to be Muslim at some point made a possible etymological connection between Filastine and the Philistines does not appear notable, at least not without more specificity regarding who / when / what context. Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
What is the actual purpose of this article? IMHO it is nothing more than an attempt to establish a "Palestinian" claim to SW Asia through a name that may or may not fit any of the current inhabitants thereof. The whole subject is fraught with controversy yet nothing is said of this controversy in the article. Things like all the above differences on where Filistia actually was at any one point. Just saying.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 16:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
To clarify (its a bit hard to tell), in the first paragraph I added the identification of Peleset with the Philistines by scholars, the hebrew word for the Philistines, and the region of the Philistines as described in the Hebrew Bible. -- Monochrome_ Monitor 21:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Current | MM edits |
---|---|
In the 20th century the name was used by the geopolitical entities commonly known as " Mandatory Palestine" and the " State of Palestine". Both incorporated geographic regions from the land commonly known as Palestine, into a new state whose territory was named Palestine. | In the 20th century the name was used by the British to refer to " Mandatory Palestine", a mandate from the former Ottoman Empire which had been divided in the Sykes–Picot Agreement. The term was later used in the eponymous " State of Palestine". Both incorporated geographic regions from the land commonly known as Palestine, into a new state whose territory was named Palestine. |
@Monochrome Monitor
96.28.43.27 ( talk) 08:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
Rari imbres, uber solum: exuberant fruges nostrum ad morem, praeterque eas, balsamum et palmae. Tacitus, Histories IV:6
'Rains are rare; the soil is fertile: its products are like ours, save that the balsam and the palm also grow there.'
96.28.43.27 ( talk) 00:05, 20 June 2015 (UTC)salubria: this and uber solum would refer more especially to Galilee. Judaea itself was far less fertile, although a 'land of milk and honey' in contrast with the surrounding deserts. (Cornelius Tacitus (1898). The histories of Tacitus. Macmillan. p. 272., Image of p. 272 at Google Books)
The bot,
User:Yobot, removed ‎
from "פלסטיני‎". What is the correct use of Unicode Character '
LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK' (U+200E) ? -thanks
96.28.43.27 (
talk) 11:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC) and copyedit
96.28.43.27 (
talk)
11:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Per Adriaan Reland's Palaestina ex monumentis. ( Reland, Adrien (1714). "CAPUT VII. DE NOMINE PALAESTINAE". Hadriani Relandi Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata: tomus I [-II] (in Latin). Vol. 1. ex libraria Guilielmi Broedelet. pp. 37–42.) The country that the Jews inhabited was called Palestine.
Quod ad Judaeos attinet.
Gentes quoque, & in iis scriptores Graecos, hoc nomen usurpasse liquet ex Dione Cassio, & aliis.
Latini quoque scriptores, tum in soluto tum ligato sermone, hoc nomine usi funt.
Adde Nummos Veteres,
Christianis autem, tum primis ecclesiae Christianae doctoribus tum aliis, in frequentissimo usu est Palaestinae nomen. - Patrologia Graeca
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Edit Log: |
There are two occurences of lieues in the article which are currently referenced as " French: lieues", giving no hint on what it means. This pre-1789 Revolution unit of measurement has no meaning but for a handful of French reading scholars. I propose to change this for a link to League_(unit)#France, which would help further understanding of what it means. Input request as this would remove the present "French:" annotation. -- kozaki ( talk) 17:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
{{lang|fr|lieues}}
74.136.159.171 (
talk)
00:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Palashtu seems to be the more probable form, but WP has decided to give precedence to Palastu: Palastu, not Palashtu, is automatically linked to this article! Several other articles use Palastu. I suggest at least ALSO creating an automatic link between Palashtu and this article. Arminden ( talk) 19:35, 29 August 2015 (UTC)Arminden
Thanks to IP 96... for bringing the Vespasian coin references. This is really interesting, because it seems to contradict the common view that Palestine was not an official Roman name prior to 135. I have seen a number of references to these coins in old books written between the 17th and 19th centuries, but not in modern books. I also can't find any photos of these coins. Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:46, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
General Info
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 13:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC) && 03:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Ok, I now removed this. For the record:
The refs are from 1649, 1714, and 1829. Needless to say the interest in Palestine didn't diminish after that. If someone wants to explore Reland's opinion in French rather than Latin,
here.
Here someone said the phrase was of a Trajan coin: [4], and as linked above, there is certainly a coin "ARMENIA ET MESOPOTAMIA IN POTESTATEM P.R. REDACTAE". Palestina might have been conflated into this text. It would also be strange if the Empire issued both this and Judaea Capta coinage. BTW, Check out the paragraph about acceptable forgery of medals in early modern time, here. trespassers william ( talk) 21:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Oncenawhile, I looked in a lot of places. Already the Lexicon ref says it's suspicious, and Lepsius ups this : [5]. It appears nowhere on newer catalogs or in a heap of monographs about Roman Palestine and the like. You know, an answer might be more interesting than a revert. trespassers william ( talk) 01:37, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
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Because some of these quotes mention "Palestinians" and not "Palestine", which makes the whole endeavor feel motivated more by modern nationalism. History of the term "palestinians" would also be interesting, but without context it's not appropriate to hyperlink to modern Palestinians (as is done twice in this article), as the term has meant Syrians and Jews. However, quotes where Jews are referred to as Palestinians are not included. There needs to be a standard or else anyone can mine quotations they like. For instance, the quotation "Jerusalem is still regarded as the capital of Palestine" is used to bolster claims not made before the 70s, while the quotation from the same work describing the region Palestine that includes the word "Judea" is not used. Some works are listed but not quoted, some quoted works are not translated. There must be a better way to do this. Like searching for the term in google books and using the first quotation in the work with the word, or only using sources with X number of references. While this article is called "Timeline of the name 'Palestine'", by it's usage a more apt title would be "Timeline of the name 'Palestine' as related to modern Palestinians".-- Monochrome_ Monitor 22:21, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
The following units or detachments of units, and a prefect and his legionary unit, are listed as being under the command of the Duke of Palestine (the numbers in front of the names refer to Ingo Maier's numbering scheme):
along with the following units from a "lesser register":
Salwa, Benet (14 February 2014). "Putting the World in Order: Mapping in Roman Texts". In Richard J. A. Talbert (ed.).
Ancient Perspectives: Maps and Their Place in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome. University of Chicago Press. p. 227.
ISBN
978-0-226-78940-8. Aurelius Gaius, on the tombstone that he erected for his wife, Iulia Arescusa, near Cotiaeum in Phrygia around 300. Having listed his advancement through the ranks, he says that he had "circled the empire" (tēn hēgemonian kykleusas), a claim that he then expands upon with a list of at least twenty-three provinces, two cities, and four regions beyond the empire's borders: Asia, Caria [Lycia?, Phrygia?], Lydia, Lycaonia, Cilicia [Isauria?, Armenia?], Phoenicia, Syria, Arabia, Palestine...
Laterculus Veronensis - Oriens: [1] Libya Superior; [2] Libya Inferior; [3] Thebais; [4] Aegyptus Iovia; [5] Aegyptus Herculia; [6] Arabia (Nova); [7] Arabia; [8] Augusta Libanensis; [9] Palaestina;...
74.138.106.1 ( talk) 23:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC) && 03:18, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
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@ Onceinawhile: The usage of "only" here is editorializing. "There is cirsumstantial evidence of X" and "there is only circumstantial evidence of X" are not the same thing. The source doesn't use "only" here and neither should we. We are explicitly not allowed to "produce implications that are not supported by the sources". See WP:EDITORIAL No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 18:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hello.
I fall in this talk page without reading anything and maybe I come with "stupid" comments. I add that I have not read any single 2nd source on the topic.
I just point out that if Pomponius Mela (just a few years before Bar Kochba revolt) draw this map: File:Karte Pomponius Mela.jpg where both Judea and Palaestina are mentioned together simultaneously, then I would conclude (in pure WP:OR) that at the time :
If not, how to explain this ?
And this also fits Josephus's sentence that we discuss here: Talk:Palestine (region)#Josephus where both words are used in the same sentence even if the translation can be discussed...
Nb: I really hope not unearthing a topic which has been solved for years...
Pluto2012 ( talk) 05:48, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Care needs to be taken with Feldman. As Foster writes on p.105 (footnote):
Feldman worked hard to ram his thesis into his sources. He claimed that Pomponius Mela “clearly differentiates Judaea from Palestine,” since Pomponius Mela wrote: “here is situated Palestine [presumably only a minor part of Syria], where Syria touches the Arabs…” Louis H. Feldman, Studies in Hellenistic Judaism (Leiden: Brill, 1996), 560. Feldman seems to force his thesis onto the evidence with Philo as well. “The one passage that is difficult to explain is the one (Quod Omnis Probus Liber Sit 12.75) in which he [Philo] declares that Palestinian-Syria has not failed to produce high moral excellence. He states that a considerable part of the Jews live there, and cites as an example the Essences.” (ibid, 563-4). It is only “difficult to explain” if one presupposes the erasure hypothesis from the outset. Feldman describes evidence that undermines his argument as a “problem” in another instance as well: “the one passage in Josephus which seems to present a problem is the one at the very end of the Antiquities (20.259), where he says that his work contains a record of the events “that befell us Jews, Egypt, Syria and in Palestine” (ibid, 564-5). On his point about the “correct” use of the word Palestine, see ibid, 576.
In Drsmoo’s recent edit, in what is now footnote 16, Feldman says “with few exceptions”, which is a crucial point currently missing from the new sentence added to the lead. He then says “reserving the name Palestine for the coastal area occupied by the Philistines” without evidence, apart from the reference to Antiquities, which was not referring to the contemporary region, but to ancient (Biblical) times. The same is true in footnote 12, where Feldman writes “A problem arises in the passage where Herodotus asserts that the Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge of themselves that they learnt the custom of circumcision from the Egyptians”; again this “exception” is nowhere mentioned in the new sentence added to the lead.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 23:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I have now been through the three other sources added by Drsmoo:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Davidbena: per this edit, it is a plain fact that Josephus included Judea in Palestine, at least in some of his writings. See below two crystal clear quotes:
@ Jonney2000: Per this edit I agree something like that is helpful. I am not comfortable with the exact form of words, because we have other scholars saying the opposite and numerous first century primary sources which explicitly include Judea or the Dead Sea. I think we need a sentence which is more precise on the specific point being made if possible. Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Drsmoo: your recent revision needs urgent discussion. I am holding back from reverting as I want to avoid an edit war. But please slow down.
You wrote two plainly false sentences:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:34, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Drsmoo: any comments? In the meantime, here are a bunch of further sources which confirm the text as it was before your recent edits:
From Zachary J. Foster dissertation
Millions of contributors to Wikipedia made the most comprehensive encyclopedia we have ever known, as well as the most comprehensive timeline of the history of the name Palestine. Special thanks go to the Wikipedia alias oncenawhile, who created and maintains that page with painstaking diligence and resourcefulness. Whoever you are—and I know you do prefer to remain anonymous—shukran alf marra. [1]
References
This does not give me the warm fuzzys. I think the source should be replaced by another source. Otherwise we end up with a wiki circular citation. Jonney2000 ( talk) 02:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
"It has been contended that in the first century authors still associated the term with the southern coastal region." This is in contradiction to Philo, who wrote in the first century "There is a portion of those people called Essenes." The Essenes according to Pliny lived "on the west side of the Dead Sea, away from the coast... [above] the town of Engeda" which is NOT in the Southern Coastal region [1] Philo also writes "[Moses] conducted his people as a colony into Phoenicia, and into the Coele-Syria, and Palestine, which was at that time called the land of the Canaanites, the borders of which country were three days' journey distant from Egypt." The "land of the Canaanites" was not generally referred to as only being part of the "southern coastal region". Pliny was a Jewish writer writing for Jews and would presumably only have used proper place names that the Jews of the time (early first century CE) would have related to and used themselves. Therefore "It has been contended that in the first century authors still associated the term with the southern coastal region." is demonstrably false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michardav ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Much ado about nothing. The entire paragraph is spurios and should be deleted (and the entire article rewritten). Ancient Egyptians named people from Palestine and Syria "kharu". There's no trace of either "peleset" or "p-r-s-t" in Budge's dictionary, and it is doubtful whether these names refer to Palestine, assuming the quoted sources have been correctly cited. Herodot's Palestine is the Biblical Philistia פְלֶשֶׁת (pɘlešet) (Assyrian Palastu, Pilistu). Polesh (פלש) means dig/break open/through in New Hebrew, but its etymology is dubious (see Brown-Driver-Briggs). The Jewish Encyclopedia (or Judaica) article on Palestine nicely sums it up. -- 83.137.1.208 ( talk) 22:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Let me make this clear - we can't use Wiktionary as a source anymore than we could use another of our articles. www.morfix.co.il also clearly fails WP:RS. Please use academic sources. Doug Weller talk 18:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I can't revert as I'd break 1RR, but the source added today is a self-published book by a fringe author. Doug Weller talk 13:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Wolfman12405, you lost this argument here, doing the same thing and expecting a different result has a technical term for it, but regardless you may not use what you think you know in an encyclopedia article. We use reliable sources, and you are emphatically not one. Revert again and I will request you be topic-banned, this discussion along with the one at Talk:Palestine (region) provides ample evidence as to your inability to both follow our content policies and to edit collaboratively. nableezy - 17:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
The lead section claims This article presents a list of notable historical references to the name Palestine
. I don't believe the article does that. It seems to be a catch-all of every pre-20th century book that can be found which includes the word Palestine. Without some reduction and/or more focus on why the listed claims are important, I don't think this is an encyclopedia article at all; it's a card catalog /
inverted index.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
05:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Wolfman12405: I didn’t understand your edit comment - what does “seems like wp” mean? Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Jonney2000: Jacobson writes: "[In the LXX]... the Land of the Philistieim. Bearing in mind that the word Palaistinē had already entered the Greek vocabulary, one might have expected the translators of the Septuagint Pentateuch to have selected that word when mentioning the country of the Philistines..."
He is explicitly stating that the terms existed in parallel.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 01:06, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Came here from cleanup page. Footnote 10 (after "Jordan Rift Valley" in the text ) should be separated into four separate footnotes and proper form used. I can't edit the page, if someone else would do the honors...thank you 173.217.182.134 ( talk) 03:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be a terrible confusion (or simply lack of differentiation) between the words Palestine (as the whole region was known by the Arab conquorers) and Plishtim, the land of the Greek/Mediterranean Philistines, whose base between Ashkelon and Gaza. I think someone would do well to clarify or clean up this confusion of terms - it is incredibly misleading. 2A00:23C8:169B:D901:15A9:61E6:5297:1BFA ( talk) 10:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Timeline of the name "Palestine" has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The origin of the word Palestine/Palestinians is most probably related to the region around the area of the river Strymon, which was once named Palaestinus /info/en/?search=Palaestinus (Ancient Greek: Παλαιστῖνος) after the homonymous mythical king who drowned there from grief after the death of his son. During the Ancient Dark ages the Sea Peoples invaded and overrun all of the East Mediterranean except Egypt, Some of those Sea Peoples survived in the area forming the Philistine Pentapolis, until they were fully absorbed into the neighboring Semitic peoples.
There is already enough evidence to suggest a small migration from European settlers during the early Iron age in the original Philistia, which has been incorporated in the wikipedia article for the Philistines, so the claim is by no means far fetched, while almost all of the Sea Peoples' origins are being speculated according to the similarity of their name to Greek/Italian/Anatolian tribes or specific geographic locations as pointed out in the wikipedia article for the Sea Peoples (Denyen - Danaians, Ekwesh - Achaians, Lucca - Lycians, Shekelesh - Sicels, Sherden - Sardinians, Teresh - Tyrrhenians, Tzeker - Teucrians, Weshesh - Achaeans e.t.c.) Sikader ( talk) 00:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus is to move the articles and italicize the article titles as proposed using {{ DISPLAYTITLE}} (that is, as "Timeline of the name Palestine" and "...Judea"). ( closed by non-admin page mover) SkyWarrior 03:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
– Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 23:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Per MOS:ITALIC, the names Palestine and Judea should be italicized when referred to as a name, which can be accomplished by dropping the quotation marks and using {{ DISPLAYTITLE}}. This discussion is subject to WP:ARBPIA sanctions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 23:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
@ Zhomron: would you be ok to merge the new section with the two existing sections “Biblical references” and “Etymological considerations”? There is a lot of duplication between the three and I think they would be best merged into one. Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile: I see no problem with that. Just give me a little while as I'm currently in the middle of something, and I'll make the change. Zhomron ( talk) 20:25, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Who used the name and why? Endless lists only manage to reproduce the pattern of kindergarten fights: I have more pebbles! No, I do!
The name comes from the Philistines. Where did they settle? Until when did their civilisation survive? Why did the Greeks name the land all the way to the Jordan Rift Valley after them even after their demise? Romans picked it up from the Greeks and we're still living in the aftermath of their civilisation, so from Herodotus onwards it's largely a waste of breath.
The rest are secondary questions, such as:
Why didn't Canaan survive as a name?
Why didn't Israel survive as a name outside Jewish culture?
A logical argument looking for causality is very different from a "list article" or rhetorical punch that aims to drown a supposed adversary under piles of vaguely connected "facts". Arminden ( talk) 00:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
It seems that "Philistines" or - more clearly - "Palestinians" was simply one of the names (another being bene Yisra'el) that at the beginning of the Iron Age replaced "Canaanites," the now-odious name during the New Kingdom had been used for the Egyptians' subjects in the Southern Levant... Except at Medinet Habu, where evidently it was first used, prst rarely appears in Egyptian texts. Two references to prst in Iron Age texts, however, clearly associate the name with a land and people in the southern Levant, and we may therefore be certain that the prst of the Medinet Habu texts is ancestral to the name that in the King James Bible was rendered as "Philistines" and that today would be rendered as "Palestinians." Evidently the name "Canaanites," found so often in New Kingdom texts, was by the reign of Ramesses III obsolescent in the southern Levant itself, and more "respectable" names were coming into vogue.34 Needless to say, for Ramesses' scribes the semantic field of the name prst could have borne little resemblance to the semantic field of our word "Palestinians." Perhaps the Medinet Habu scribes regarded prst as a term especially appropriate for those rebellious Canaanites who had recently begun to cause the Egyptians trouble.
"established by the merge of Roman Syria and Roman Judaea"
the word "merge" should be "merger"
Done
Zero
talk
00:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
In the sentence
the word "to" is missing. The text should read: ...was intended to "sever the connection..." (unsigned)
Please put {{lang|de|text}}
before this entry: "1607: Hans Jacob Breuning von Buchenbach, Enchiridion Orientalischer Reiß Hanns Jacob Breunings, von vnnd zu Buchenbach, so er in Türckey, benandtlichen in Griechenlandt, Egypten, Arabien, Palestinam, vnd in Syrien, vor dieser zeit verrichtet (etc.)"
TreeReader (
talk)
11:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
The first sentence of the first bullet point under "Roman Aelia Capitolina period" reads "c. 129 or 135: Syria Palæstina was a Roman province between 135 and about 390." but the sources only mention 135 for the date of the founding of Syria Palestina. There are sources which say the date of the change is unknown but 129 seems to be picked out of a hat. Unless there's a source for it it should say something like "around 135". Anothracountiges ( talk) 22:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Replace "Land of Phylistieim (Γη των Φυλιστιειμ)" with "Land of the Phylistieim (Γη των Φυλιστιειμ)". The text in question comes from a quoted reference, and in the text of the longer quote, the definite article "the" appears before "Phylistieim". Evidently a typo -- as will also be evident to those who know Greek.
Under Historical references > Classical antiquity, the Herodotus map caption reads:
I recommend instead:
— ℜob C. alias ALAROB 16:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Mistamystery, will you help me find that further audience of Jacobson (1999) commentary? In Rainey (2001) that is cited next to it, we read only: "It remains to note a recent suggestion (Jacobson 1999) that the Greeks associated Παλαιστίνη with παλαιστής "wrestler" in meaning as well as in spell- ing. The kind of spelling convention mentioned by Noth (1939: 133) is acceptable, but the idea (Jacob- son 1999: 68-69) that the association was made be- cause the Greeks knew that Jacob had wrestled with the Angel of the Lord (Gen 32:24-28) requires un- warranted credulity. And according to Josephus, Philistia is just where we know it from biblical and Assyrian texts of the Iron Age...." trespassers william ( talk) 17:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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Chesdovi needs to attempt a justification for all the tags added to this article today, or they will be removed. Can I please ask anyone commenting on this article overall to first review the external references section of the article, in particular:
Oncenawhile ( talk) 17:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Even though Chesdovi was mistaken in this instance, his general point is valid. Very few traditional Jewish sources use the name "Palestine". A few years ago I asked a friend who is an expert on this sort of thing, and he came up with these examples of "Palestine" or "Palestinians":
Zero talk 04:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
IP 74.240.225.109 has just added the following: "It is important to note that the root is traced to a meaning that means, "usurper" or "invader", and that the Biblical Phillistines did not refer to themselves by that name. This is how the term "invaders" is spelled in Hebrew: פולשים. It has the same F/P-L-S semetic root. It is a fact that is routinely ignored by Palestinian nationalists, who are either too ignorant, or afraid of the truth. In reality, it is beyond amusing that any modern people would choose to refer to themsleves as "invaders". Why on earth would you willingly refer to yourself in your own language, by a term that literally means "invaders", and was a deragatory term used by a non-Arab people to refer to another non-Arab people who are completely unrelated to you? That makes no sense.< http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php>" Can anyone provide a reputable source for any of this? Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:04, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This claim of the origin of the word "Philistine" (by Zionist propaganda) is not supported and only thrown out by "Biblical scholars" and even the root itself is not certain at all and can possibly mean migrant as well. The real scholarly view (putting aside so-called "Biblical scholars", an oxymoron to be sure) is the following that Philistine comes from "Jacobsohn and supported by others, is that the name derives from the attested Illyrian locality Palaeste, whose inhabitants would have been called Palaestīnī according to normal grammatical practice". And this fits with the other scholarly fact about the title Caphtor where the Philistines are said to be originally from according to the "Bible" that "Scholars variously identify the land of Caphtor with Cyprus and Crete and other locations in the eastern Mediterranean." Illyria is around the generic term eastern Mediterranean and the Philistines movements are impossible to document other than again somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean so it could very possibly be a Philistine migration from Illyria (the Balkans, modern day Albania, etc) were they started out and then say Crete or Cyprus and then to Canaan (Palestine).
Also being called something by someone else and having the word stick is not "unique" at all in world history anyway even IF this propaganda claim the person above posted from an infamous Zionist propaganda source was supposedly "true" at all. Just see for an unrelated example (that makes this point) the word "Christian" being something enemies of what the New Testament says were the Apostles of Jesus, first called the "Christians" as an insult in Antioch and the name stuck clearly Christianity; Acts 11:26- ... And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)
And then just finally to conclude, Palestinians are shown to be mostly related to the old indigenous people of the land (in this Canaan, Palestine, Israel, etc) as even Israeli academics and geneticists have largely acknowledged themselves http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2000/10/30-01.html. The whole issue about Palestinians being Semites or Arabs today has to do with them having been Arabized culturally and linguistically, regardless of where the Philistines (who most certainly have given DNA to the Palestinians as the Palestinians have the DNA of all the people who have lived in the region throughout history be they Philistines, Canaanites, Israelites, Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, Mamluks, Kurdish Ayyubids, etc etc). If one holds say Jewish people to the statements this piece of Zionist propaganda mentiond above gives, then even according to Zionist mythology and the "Bible"; the Hebrews (putting aside nobody on earth can prove if they are descended from the Biblical Abraham much less most Jews who have lived with and intermarried in Europe in particular for centuries) the Hebrews themselves won't have originally been Semites as Abraham is said in religious lore (in particular the Bible) to have come from Ur (Iraq) which was not a Semitic place at that point either. Just see the Sumerian language in old Mesopotamia it wasn't Semitic! Meaning even Abraham, the Patriarch admired by three world religions, would not have been Semitic himself even and would've had to undergo a process of being turned Semitic culturally and linguistically (as terms like Arab, Jewish, are not "races" they are cultures and linguistic groupings, obviously more so Arab then a term like Jewish which just denotes a follower of Judaism and one can convert to the religion of Judaism, etc) Historylover4 ( talk) 02:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
For a start where are your sources for this claim of Palestinians being decedents of Peleshet or Philistines that you mention above? Secondly your use of the term "Zionist propaganda" is rather telling seen as anyone who supports the self determination of Jews in the world is technically a Zionist. For your information there is no Cabal of "Zionist Elders" and Zionism is only a dirty word to Islamists and antisemites on both the extreme right and the extreme left. 82.25.201.64 ( talk) 22:37, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
This is the biggest load of islamist propaganda I have ever seen. 69.22.242.52 ( talk) 06:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC) Regardless of being Zionist or not, the fact the root PLŜ comes from "INVADER" is even supported by the Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%A9. -- Wolfman12405 ( talk) 01:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
The root of the name "philistines" comes from PLŠ (פלש)
which in both Canaanite and Hebrew (a Canaanite dialect) means: "Invader" (פולש). [1] ANYONE WHO SPEAKS HEBREW, YES EVEN NON-ZIONISTS, KNOWS THIS! all u haters - Try to hold ur breath if it makes u feel uncomfortable, because NON-ZIONIST GENETICISTS have also found that the "palestinians" are not homogenous group and that most of them are identical to arabians unlike Jews, Druze and lebanese for instance.-- Wolfman12405 ( talk) 03:59, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
H6428 palas; a primitive root; to roll (in dust):— roll self, wallow self.
It seems more likely that the Egyptians were referring to the Peleshet as the 'Sea People'. An unknown people who came from the Aegean, often taking prisoners, or engaged in wars with Egypt and only really known about due to Egyptian records. There is no real connection proven between the Peleshet and later Philistines, if they even exist.
I find it troubling that the source for the term is the Tanakh.
For example, a page from the online Jewish Library "then the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet, which appears in the Tanakh no fewer than 250 times. Roughly translated to mean rolling or migratory, the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt – the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people – more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguistically or historically with Arabia – who conquered the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israel and Gaza in the 12th Century BCE." [2]
The article even contradicts the page on Philistines. The reference and usage here is tenuous at best and should be removed, since its really just an attempt to place Palestinians in Egypt as an alternative to a well-known foundation story surrounding the Hebrews and the Bible in order to fulfil the objectives of replacement theology. See also Supercessionism. Ethnopunk ( talk) 15:00, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
References
Genesis 21:34 refers to Abraham dwelling in Palestine, used to refer to the entire country, and should be referenced as it would predate the rest of these sources. 129.215.130.11 ( talk) 13:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Correction: Genesis 21.34 refers to Abraham living "in the land of the PLISHTIM for many days".
In Genesis 21.32, Abraham and Abimelekh having "made a treaty in Beer-sheba", Abimelekh then "left [Beersheba] and returned to the land of the PLISHTIM".
Ts-lin09 (
talk)
08:30, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
There may be a lack of context problem with the way the pre-Hadrian "Palestine" uses are presented. While it's interesting to give a complete (and they do look fairly complete) list of Greek/Roman citations, they could mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian, it wasn't. It's misleading that Strabo's non-use of the term is not mentioned given Strabo is the main Herod-the-Great era geographical source on the area.
“Palestine” did not come into official use until the early second century ad, when the emperor Hadrian decided to rename the province of Judaea; for its new name he chose “ Syria Palaestina.”49 The new name took hold. It is found thereafter in inscriptions, on coins, and in numerous literary texts.50 Thus Arrian (7.9.8, Indica 43.1) and Appian (Syr. 50), who lived in the second century ad, and Cassius Dio (eg, 38.38.4, 39.56.6), who lived in the third, referred to the region as “Palestine.” And in the rabbinic literature “Palestine” was used as the name of the Roman province.
— The Hellenistic settlements in Syria, the Red Sea Basin, and North Africa 2006 p37 Getzel M. Cohen
The article needs to show more clearly that "Palestine" jumped from not being a very common name for the region to the common name with Hadrian. Inserting a comment on Strabo would be a good way to do that. In ictu oculi ( talk) 03:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
What I've seen in this historical account is an evidence based record of what this land has been called in a timeline throughout history, not to "mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian" as what you're saying is that there is evidence in the article that states that the name Palestine was a common name pre-Hadrian, show where in the article that makes a clear indication of someone making a case that the name Palestine was a common name pre-Hadrian as all I see is an evidence based article, not an opinionated, preachy one.
You must also understand that what you're saying is misleading as you're making a statement that is not backed by evidence, that "mislead the casual browser to think that "Palestine" was common pre-Hadrian, it wasn't." do you have any evidence that supports that the name "Palestine" was not a common name of this land pre-Hadrian? If not, was this only based on your opinion? As if you make this sort of statement without evidence you could mislead people into believing something that is not true, as what if many people of this area referred to this area in their dialect as their variation of the word "Palestine"? Is your concern with only the Greek/Roman or do you also disagree with the Assyrian dialect "Pa-la-áš-tu", "pa-la-as-ta-a-a" or ancient Egyptian "P-r-s-t"? Can you give a good argument to delete most of the article to only show Hadrian and onward or have another opinion that should be apart of this article? Maybe you want to add to the article that "We don't mean to mislead you to believe that this land was called "Palestine" pre-Hardian? What's your goal? Tell us it and maybe it can be achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkL22137 ( talk • contribs) 17:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There are two references to "Lewis, 1993" but no such source is identified. Similarly for "Kaegi, 1995", "Sharon, 1988", "Marshall Cavendish, 2007", "Lassner and Troen, 2007" and "Room, 1997". Maybe others too. I guess some things got lost in past page splitting. "Studies in Hellenistic Judaism :Louis H. Feldman" needs page number. Zero talk 12:48, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
.< http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php> Most of my previous information's are given here as well. If my previous sources are questioned (although my previous source provided much deeper perspective to the etymology of the name Palestine, I can use this source too. I don't think that I should agree in self-censorship, as I gave valid links to all facts mentioned.As the books are currently unavailable I will replece part — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tritomex ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
palestinefacts.org is a self-published web site that fails WP:RS. We can't use it here, and we aren't allowed to copy sources from places like that either. [1] is entirely out of the question as it is a wikipedia mirror. There is only one thing that needs fixing in the article as far as I can see. When the Hebrew usage of the word Peleshet is mentioned in the lead, the word "Philistines" doesn't appear; that seems to be a mistake. Zero talk 21:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
By my count, Tritomex has violated WP:1RR three times, and has refused to attempt to gain consensus for the proposed addition. I would note that I warned the editor two months ago about WP:ARBPIA. Oncenawhile ( talk) 10:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
There have been repeated attempts to add an "etymology" section to this article. The proposed section says that the word Palestine means the Biblical Philistines, and that these Philistines were not Arabs or Semites. The section does not make any sense in this article for the following reasons: (1) This whole article is about etymology. Having it begin with a section on one person's interpretation of where the word came from is absurd (2) The sources being the Seattle Times and Palestine Facts are not experts in etymology, they are experts in politics (3) This article is not the right place to talk about who the Philistines were, where they came from, or what they called themselves (4) Focusing only on the biblical interpretation, versus the whole history of the word (which began in Egypt, before the bible was written) is not NPOV. Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Rabbinical literature is full of apophthegms that express the positive passion of the teachers of Israel for the soil, the air, the water, the physical being of the national land. 'Whosoever walks four cubits in Palestine is assured of the world to come.' 'It is better to dwell in a Palestine desert than to live in a land of plenty abroad.' 'To live in the land of Israel outweighs all the commands of the Torah.' 'The air of Palestine makes men wise.' 'Even the chatter of Palestine is worthy of study.' 'Palestine is the microcosm of the world.' 'Rabbi Abah used to kiss the rocks of Palestine. Rabbi Chazah used to roll in the dust of Palestine.' The whole doctrine of the rabbis in regard to the national home is summed up in the sentence: 'God said to Moses, "the Land is me and Israel is dear to me. I will bring Israel who is dear to me to Land that is dear to me.' Here is the triple thread which is Judaism -- God, the Jewish people, the Jewish land. What the rabbis taught and felt, the Jewish people believed and felt. Quotes from here should be added [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.50.114.94 ( talk) 19:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
At a minimum, the Pausanias reference seems to be inaccurate, since Pausanias referred to Judea as being "above" Palestine (i.e. in the hills inland from the coast), and not "in" Palestine. The Greek words huper tês Palaistinês υπερ της Παλαιστινης "above Palaistine" can be seen at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159%3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D9 . As far as I can tell, among those who had specific knowledge of the area (as opposed to those dependent on secondhand reports from coastal-sailing merchants, at a time when Judea did not extend to the coast), the word Παλαιστινη / Palaestina predominantly referred to the coastal plain area (old Philistia) before 135 A.D. AnonMoos ( talk) 22:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Re your quote, I have added a translation used by two unrelated specialist scholars in to the article. Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The article seems to be completely rewritten (and have a different title) since I left the remarks above, but it still omits the fact that Pausanias refers to the Hebrews as being "on" or "above" Palestine (i.e. living in the hills inland from the coast -- the coastal plain being the commonest meaning of the term Peleshet/Palaistine before 135 A.D., especially among those who knew the area firsthand). See the Perseus@Tufts link above... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
All references to Zionist propaganda must be removed as deeply offensive. 'Zionists' do not publish false information. The Torah commands the Jews to not bear false witness, the Koran commands Moslem's to use Al Teqiyya (false witness)in the furtherance of Islam. Who would you believe? John, London, UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.167.78 ( talk) 20:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
User:Mainstreamegypt added a new source ( here in "A Commentary on Herodotus") in order to justify the statement: "Scholars are divided on whether his usage of the term only refered to the coastal strip (Philistia)".
Having read the source, it is silent on this question, and the user is making an WP:OR argument from silence. Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it is illegal to use "" tags in wikipedia article title. Anyways shouldn't the name be Etymology of Palestine ? Greyshark09 ( talk) 20:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
GreyShark you had it right, Etymology of Palestine. -- Etymology is the correct term = "A history of a word". Please punish AnonMoos. He is trying to hide the existence of this page and corrupt wikipedia, on many "Palestine" talk pages, he is posting that Hadrian invented the name Palestine after exiling the Jews 135CE. AnonMoos in on a Religious Crusade to keep this article from coming to light. -- 20:19, 31 January 2014 User:DigDeep4Truth
The sentence from Lassner and Troen in the lead "Jacob Lassner and Selwyn Ilan Troen offer a different view, writing that Jund Filastin, the full name for the administrative province under the rule of the Arab caliphates, was traced by Muslim geographers back to the Philistines of the Bible" is incorrect / misleading. They do not "offer a different view" to that of Moshe Sharon. The source states simply that Muslim geographers made the etymological connection to the Philistines, but the source does not say either (a) that this connection was made at the time they first started calling the region Jund Filastin, or (b) that the making of this connection was the reason they called it Jund Filastin. Frankly, we don't even know who the Muslim geographers being referred to were and / or when they wrote.
Removing the WP:OR synthesis of "offer a different view" makes the sentence redundant, as the fact that some geographers who happened to be Muslim at some point made a possible etymological connection between Filastine and the Philistines does not appear notable, at least not without more specificity regarding who / when / what context. Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
What is the actual purpose of this article? IMHO it is nothing more than an attempt to establish a "Palestinian" claim to SW Asia through a name that may or may not fit any of the current inhabitants thereof. The whole subject is fraught with controversy yet nothing is said of this controversy in the article. Things like all the above differences on where Filistia actually was at any one point. Just saying.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 16:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
To clarify (its a bit hard to tell), in the first paragraph I added the identification of Peleset with the Philistines by scholars, the hebrew word for the Philistines, and the region of the Philistines as described in the Hebrew Bible. -- Monochrome_ Monitor 21:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Current | MM edits |
---|---|
In the 20th century the name was used by the geopolitical entities commonly known as " Mandatory Palestine" and the " State of Palestine". Both incorporated geographic regions from the land commonly known as Palestine, into a new state whose territory was named Palestine. | In the 20th century the name was used by the British to refer to " Mandatory Palestine", a mandate from the former Ottoman Empire which had been divided in the Sykes–Picot Agreement. The term was later used in the eponymous " State of Palestine". Both incorporated geographic regions from the land commonly known as Palestine, into a new state whose territory was named Palestine. |
@Monochrome Monitor
96.28.43.27 ( talk) 08:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
Rari imbres, uber solum: exuberant fruges nostrum ad morem, praeterque eas, balsamum et palmae. Tacitus, Histories IV:6
'Rains are rare; the soil is fertile: its products are like ours, save that the balsam and the palm also grow there.'
96.28.43.27 ( talk) 00:05, 20 June 2015 (UTC)salubria: this and uber solum would refer more especially to Galilee. Judaea itself was far less fertile, although a 'land of milk and honey' in contrast with the surrounding deserts. (Cornelius Tacitus (1898). The histories of Tacitus. Macmillan. p. 272., Image of p. 272 at Google Books)
The bot,
User:Yobot, removed ‎
from "פלסטיני‎". What is the correct use of Unicode Character '
LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK' (U+200E) ? -thanks
96.28.43.27 (
talk) 11:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC) and copyedit
96.28.43.27 (
talk)
11:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Per Adriaan Reland's Palaestina ex monumentis. ( Reland, Adrien (1714). "CAPUT VII. DE NOMINE PALAESTINAE". Hadriani Relandi Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata: tomus I [-II] (in Latin). Vol. 1. ex libraria Guilielmi Broedelet. pp. 37–42.) The country that the Jews inhabited was called Palestine.
Quod ad Judaeos attinet.
Gentes quoque, & in iis scriptores Graecos, hoc nomen usurpasse liquet ex Dione Cassio, & aliis.
Latini quoque scriptores, tum in soluto tum ligato sermone, hoc nomine usi funt.
Adde Nummos Veteres,
Christianis autem, tum primis ecclesiae Christianae doctoribus tum aliis, in frequentissimo usu est Palaestinae nomen. - Patrologia Graeca
|
Edit Log: |
There are two occurences of lieues in the article which are currently referenced as " French: lieues", giving no hint on what it means. This pre-1789 Revolution unit of measurement has no meaning but for a handful of French reading scholars. I propose to change this for a link to League_(unit)#France, which would help further understanding of what it means. Input request as this would remove the present "French:" annotation. -- kozaki ( talk) 17:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
{{lang|fr|lieues}}
74.136.159.171 (
talk)
00:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Palashtu seems to be the more probable form, but WP has decided to give precedence to Palastu: Palastu, not Palashtu, is automatically linked to this article! Several other articles use Palastu. I suggest at least ALSO creating an automatic link between Palashtu and this article. Arminden ( talk) 19:35, 29 August 2015 (UTC)Arminden
Thanks to IP 96... for bringing the Vespasian coin references. This is really interesting, because it seems to contradict the common view that Palestine was not an official Roman name prior to 135. I have seen a number of references to these coins in old books written between the 17th and 19th centuries, but not in modern books. I also can't find any photos of these coins. Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:46, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
General Info
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 13:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC) && 03:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Ok, I now removed this. For the record:
The refs are from 1649, 1714, and 1829. Needless to say the interest in Palestine didn't diminish after that. If someone wants to explore Reland's opinion in French rather than Latin,
here.
Here someone said the phrase was of a Trajan coin: [4], and as linked above, there is certainly a coin "ARMENIA ET MESOPOTAMIA IN POTESTATEM P.R. REDACTAE". Palestina might have been conflated into this text. It would also be strange if the Empire issued both this and Judaea Capta coinage. BTW, Check out the paragraph about acceptable forgery of medals in early modern time, here. trespassers william ( talk) 21:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Oncenawhile, I looked in a lot of places. Already the Lexicon ref says it's suspicious, and Lepsius ups this : [5]. It appears nowhere on newer catalogs or in a heap of monographs about Roman Palestine and the like. You know, an answer might be more interesting than a revert. trespassers william ( talk) 01:37, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
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Because some of these quotes mention "Palestinians" and not "Palestine", which makes the whole endeavor feel motivated more by modern nationalism. History of the term "palestinians" would also be interesting, but without context it's not appropriate to hyperlink to modern Palestinians (as is done twice in this article), as the term has meant Syrians and Jews. However, quotes where Jews are referred to as Palestinians are not included. There needs to be a standard or else anyone can mine quotations they like. For instance, the quotation "Jerusalem is still regarded as the capital of Palestine" is used to bolster claims not made before the 70s, while the quotation from the same work describing the region Palestine that includes the word "Judea" is not used. Some works are listed but not quoted, some quoted works are not translated. There must be a better way to do this. Like searching for the term in google books and using the first quotation in the work with the word, or only using sources with X number of references. While this article is called "Timeline of the name 'Palestine'", by it's usage a more apt title would be "Timeline of the name 'Palestine' as related to modern Palestinians".-- Monochrome_ Monitor 22:21, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
The following units or detachments of units, and a prefect and his legionary unit, are listed as being under the command of the Duke of Palestine (the numbers in front of the names refer to Ingo Maier's numbering scheme):
along with the following units from a "lesser register":
Salwa, Benet (14 February 2014). "Putting the World in Order: Mapping in Roman Texts". In Richard J. A. Talbert (ed.).
Ancient Perspectives: Maps and Their Place in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome. University of Chicago Press. p. 227.
ISBN
978-0-226-78940-8. Aurelius Gaius, on the tombstone that he erected for his wife, Iulia Arescusa, near Cotiaeum in Phrygia around 300. Having listed his advancement through the ranks, he says that he had "circled the empire" (tēn hēgemonian kykleusas), a claim that he then expands upon with a list of at least twenty-three provinces, two cities, and four regions beyond the empire's borders: Asia, Caria [Lycia?, Phrygia?], Lydia, Lycaonia, Cilicia [Isauria?, Armenia?], Phoenicia, Syria, Arabia, Palestine...
Laterculus Veronensis - Oriens: [1] Libya Superior; [2] Libya Inferior; [3] Thebais; [4] Aegyptus Iovia; [5] Aegyptus Herculia; [6] Arabia (Nova); [7] Arabia; [8] Augusta Libanensis; [9] Palaestina;...
74.138.106.1 ( talk) 23:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC) && 03:18, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
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@ Onceinawhile: The usage of "only" here is editorializing. "There is cirsumstantial evidence of X" and "there is only circumstantial evidence of X" are not the same thing. The source doesn't use "only" here and neither should we. We are explicitly not allowed to "produce implications that are not supported by the sources". See WP:EDITORIAL No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 18:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hello.
I fall in this talk page without reading anything and maybe I come with "stupid" comments. I add that I have not read any single 2nd source on the topic.
I just point out that if Pomponius Mela (just a few years before Bar Kochba revolt) draw this map: File:Karte Pomponius Mela.jpg where both Judea and Palaestina are mentioned together simultaneously, then I would conclude (in pure WP:OR) that at the time :
If not, how to explain this ?
And this also fits Josephus's sentence that we discuss here: Talk:Palestine (region)#Josephus where both words are used in the same sentence even if the translation can be discussed...
Nb: I really hope not unearthing a topic which has been solved for years...
Pluto2012 ( talk) 05:48, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Care needs to be taken with Feldman. As Foster writes on p.105 (footnote):
Feldman worked hard to ram his thesis into his sources. He claimed that Pomponius Mela “clearly differentiates Judaea from Palestine,” since Pomponius Mela wrote: “here is situated Palestine [presumably only a minor part of Syria], where Syria touches the Arabs…” Louis H. Feldman, Studies in Hellenistic Judaism (Leiden: Brill, 1996), 560. Feldman seems to force his thesis onto the evidence with Philo as well. “The one passage that is difficult to explain is the one (Quod Omnis Probus Liber Sit 12.75) in which he [Philo] declares that Palestinian-Syria has not failed to produce high moral excellence. He states that a considerable part of the Jews live there, and cites as an example the Essences.” (ibid, 563-4). It is only “difficult to explain” if one presupposes the erasure hypothesis from the outset. Feldman describes evidence that undermines his argument as a “problem” in another instance as well: “the one passage in Josephus which seems to present a problem is the one at the very end of the Antiquities (20.259), where he says that his work contains a record of the events “that befell us Jews, Egypt, Syria and in Palestine” (ibid, 564-5). On his point about the “correct” use of the word Palestine, see ibid, 576.
In Drsmoo’s recent edit, in what is now footnote 16, Feldman says “with few exceptions”, which is a crucial point currently missing from the new sentence added to the lead. He then says “reserving the name Palestine for the coastal area occupied by the Philistines” without evidence, apart from the reference to Antiquities, which was not referring to the contemporary region, but to ancient (Biblical) times. The same is true in footnote 12, where Feldman writes “A problem arises in the passage where Herodotus asserts that the Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge of themselves that they learnt the custom of circumcision from the Egyptians”; again this “exception” is nowhere mentioned in the new sentence added to the lead.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 23:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I have now been through the three other sources added by Drsmoo:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Davidbena: per this edit, it is a plain fact that Josephus included Judea in Palestine, at least in some of his writings. See below two crystal clear quotes:
@ Jonney2000: Per this edit I agree something like that is helpful. I am not comfortable with the exact form of words, because we have other scholars saying the opposite and numerous first century primary sources which explicitly include Judea or the Dead Sea. I think we need a sentence which is more precise on the specific point being made if possible. Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Drsmoo: your recent revision needs urgent discussion. I am holding back from reverting as I want to avoid an edit war. But please slow down.
You wrote two plainly false sentences:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:34, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Drsmoo: any comments? In the meantime, here are a bunch of further sources which confirm the text as it was before your recent edits:
From Zachary J. Foster dissertation
Millions of contributors to Wikipedia made the most comprehensive encyclopedia we have ever known, as well as the most comprehensive timeline of the history of the name Palestine. Special thanks go to the Wikipedia alias oncenawhile, who created and maintains that page with painstaking diligence and resourcefulness. Whoever you are—and I know you do prefer to remain anonymous—shukran alf marra. [1]
References
This does not give me the warm fuzzys. I think the source should be replaced by another source. Otherwise we end up with a wiki circular citation. Jonney2000 ( talk) 02:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
"It has been contended that in the first century authors still associated the term with the southern coastal region." This is in contradiction to Philo, who wrote in the first century "There is a portion of those people called Essenes." The Essenes according to Pliny lived "on the west side of the Dead Sea, away from the coast... [above] the town of Engeda" which is NOT in the Southern Coastal region [1] Philo also writes "[Moses] conducted his people as a colony into Phoenicia, and into the Coele-Syria, and Palestine, which was at that time called the land of the Canaanites, the borders of which country were three days' journey distant from Egypt." The "land of the Canaanites" was not generally referred to as only being part of the "southern coastal region". Pliny was a Jewish writer writing for Jews and would presumably only have used proper place names that the Jews of the time (early first century CE) would have related to and used themselves. Therefore "It has been contended that in the first century authors still associated the term with the southern coastal region." is demonstrably false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michardav ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Much ado about nothing. The entire paragraph is spurios and should be deleted (and the entire article rewritten). Ancient Egyptians named people from Palestine and Syria "kharu". There's no trace of either "peleset" or "p-r-s-t" in Budge's dictionary, and it is doubtful whether these names refer to Palestine, assuming the quoted sources have been correctly cited. Herodot's Palestine is the Biblical Philistia פְלֶשֶׁת (pɘlešet) (Assyrian Palastu, Pilistu). Polesh (פלש) means dig/break open/through in New Hebrew, but its etymology is dubious (see Brown-Driver-Briggs). The Jewish Encyclopedia (or Judaica) article on Palestine nicely sums it up. -- 83.137.1.208 ( talk) 22:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Let me make this clear - we can't use Wiktionary as a source anymore than we could use another of our articles. www.morfix.co.il also clearly fails WP:RS. Please use academic sources. Doug Weller talk 18:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I can't revert as I'd break 1RR, but the source added today is a self-published book by a fringe author. Doug Weller talk 13:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Wolfman12405, you lost this argument here, doing the same thing and expecting a different result has a technical term for it, but regardless you may not use what you think you know in an encyclopedia article. We use reliable sources, and you are emphatically not one. Revert again and I will request you be topic-banned, this discussion along with the one at Talk:Palestine (region) provides ample evidence as to your inability to both follow our content policies and to edit collaboratively. nableezy - 17:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
The lead section claims This article presents a list of notable historical references to the name Palestine
. I don't believe the article does that. It seems to be a catch-all of every pre-20th century book that can be found which includes the word Palestine. Without some reduction and/or more focus on why the listed claims are important, I don't think this is an encyclopedia article at all; it's a card catalog /
inverted index.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
05:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Wolfman12405: I didn’t understand your edit comment - what does “seems like wp” mean? Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Jonney2000: Jacobson writes: "[In the LXX]... the Land of the Philistieim. Bearing in mind that the word Palaistinē had already entered the Greek vocabulary, one might have expected the translators of the Septuagint Pentateuch to have selected that word when mentioning the country of the Philistines..."
He is explicitly stating that the terms existed in parallel.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 01:06, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Came here from cleanup page. Footnote 10 (after "Jordan Rift Valley" in the text ) should be separated into four separate footnotes and proper form used. I can't edit the page, if someone else would do the honors...thank you 173.217.182.134 ( talk) 03:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be a terrible confusion (or simply lack of differentiation) between the words Palestine (as the whole region was known by the Arab conquorers) and Plishtim, the land of the Greek/Mediterranean Philistines, whose base between Ashkelon and Gaza. I think someone would do well to clarify or clean up this confusion of terms - it is incredibly misleading. 2A00:23C8:169B:D901:15A9:61E6:5297:1BFA ( talk) 10:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Timeline of the name "Palestine" has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The origin of the word Palestine/Palestinians is most probably related to the region around the area of the river Strymon, which was once named Palaestinus /info/en/?search=Palaestinus (Ancient Greek: Παλαιστῖνος) after the homonymous mythical king who drowned there from grief after the death of his son. During the Ancient Dark ages the Sea Peoples invaded and overrun all of the East Mediterranean except Egypt, Some of those Sea Peoples survived in the area forming the Philistine Pentapolis, until they were fully absorbed into the neighboring Semitic peoples.
There is already enough evidence to suggest a small migration from European settlers during the early Iron age in the original Philistia, which has been incorporated in the wikipedia article for the Philistines, so the claim is by no means far fetched, while almost all of the Sea Peoples' origins are being speculated according to the similarity of their name to Greek/Italian/Anatolian tribes or specific geographic locations as pointed out in the wikipedia article for the Sea Peoples (Denyen - Danaians, Ekwesh - Achaians, Lucca - Lycians, Shekelesh - Sicels, Sherden - Sardinians, Teresh - Tyrrhenians, Tzeker - Teucrians, Weshesh - Achaeans e.t.c.) Sikader ( talk) 00:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus is to move the articles and italicize the article titles as proposed using {{ DISPLAYTITLE}} (that is, as "Timeline of the name Palestine" and "...Judea"). ( closed by non-admin page mover) SkyWarrior 03:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
– Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 23:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Per MOS:ITALIC, the names Palestine and Judea should be italicized when referred to as a name, which can be accomplished by dropping the quotation marks and using {{ DISPLAYTITLE}}. This discussion is subject to WP:ARBPIA sanctions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 23:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
@ Zhomron: would you be ok to merge the new section with the two existing sections “Biblical references” and “Etymological considerations”? There is a lot of duplication between the three and I think they would be best merged into one. Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile: I see no problem with that. Just give me a little while as I'm currently in the middle of something, and I'll make the change. Zhomron ( talk) 20:25, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Who used the name and why? Endless lists only manage to reproduce the pattern of kindergarten fights: I have more pebbles! No, I do!
The name comes from the Philistines. Where did they settle? Until when did their civilisation survive? Why did the Greeks name the land all the way to the Jordan Rift Valley after them even after their demise? Romans picked it up from the Greeks and we're still living in the aftermath of their civilisation, so from Herodotus onwards it's largely a waste of breath.
The rest are secondary questions, such as:
Why didn't Canaan survive as a name?
Why didn't Israel survive as a name outside Jewish culture?
A logical argument looking for causality is very different from a "list article" or rhetorical punch that aims to drown a supposed adversary under piles of vaguely connected "facts". Arminden ( talk) 00:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
It seems that "Philistines" or - more clearly - "Palestinians" was simply one of the names (another being bene Yisra'el) that at the beginning of the Iron Age replaced "Canaanites," the now-odious name during the New Kingdom had been used for the Egyptians' subjects in the Southern Levant... Except at Medinet Habu, where evidently it was first used, prst rarely appears in Egyptian texts. Two references to prst in Iron Age texts, however, clearly associate the name with a land and people in the southern Levant, and we may therefore be certain that the prst of the Medinet Habu texts is ancestral to the name that in the King James Bible was rendered as "Philistines" and that today would be rendered as "Palestinians." Evidently the name "Canaanites," found so often in New Kingdom texts, was by the reign of Ramesses III obsolescent in the southern Levant itself, and more "respectable" names were coming into vogue.34 Needless to say, for Ramesses' scribes the semantic field of the name prst could have borne little resemblance to the semantic field of our word "Palestinians." Perhaps the Medinet Habu scribes regarded prst as a term especially appropriate for those rebellious Canaanites who had recently begun to cause the Egyptians trouble.
"established by the merge of Roman Syria and Roman Judaea"
the word "merge" should be "merger"
Done
Zero
talk
00:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
In the sentence
the word "to" is missing. The text should read: ...was intended to "sever the connection..." (unsigned)
Please put {{lang|de|text}}
before this entry: "1607: Hans Jacob Breuning von Buchenbach, Enchiridion Orientalischer Reiß Hanns Jacob Breunings, von vnnd zu Buchenbach, so er in Türckey, benandtlichen in Griechenlandt, Egypten, Arabien, Palestinam, vnd in Syrien, vor dieser zeit verrichtet (etc.)"
TreeReader (
talk)
11:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
The first sentence of the first bullet point under "Roman Aelia Capitolina period" reads "c. 129 or 135: Syria Palæstina was a Roman province between 135 and about 390." but the sources only mention 135 for the date of the founding of Syria Palestina. There are sources which say the date of the change is unknown but 129 seems to be picked out of a hat. Unless there's a source for it it should say something like "around 135". Anothracountiges ( talk) 22:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Replace "Land of Phylistieim (Γη των Φυλιστιειμ)" with "Land of the Phylistieim (Γη των Φυλιστιειμ)". The text in question comes from a quoted reference, and in the text of the longer quote, the definite article "the" appears before "Phylistieim". Evidently a typo -- as will also be evident to those who know Greek.
Under Historical references > Classical antiquity, the Herodotus map caption reads:
I recommend instead:
— ℜob C. alias ALAROB 16:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Mistamystery, will you help me find that further audience of Jacobson (1999) commentary? In Rainey (2001) that is cited next to it, we read only: "It remains to note a recent suggestion (Jacobson 1999) that the Greeks associated Παλαιστίνη with παλαιστής "wrestler" in meaning as well as in spell- ing. The kind of spelling convention mentioned by Noth (1939: 133) is acceptable, but the idea (Jacob- son 1999: 68-69) that the association was made be- cause the Greeks knew that Jacob had wrestled with the Angel of the Lord (Gen 32:24-28) requires un- warranted credulity. And according to Josephus, Philistia is just where we know it from biblical and Assyrian texts of the Iron Age...." trespassers william ( talk) 17:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)