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The article states that thoroughbread horses stand 64 inches high. Is this to the top of their head? How high does the rider sit? The article also does not state how much these horses generally weigh. Added this information would be appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaedglass ( talk • contribs) 22:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
If they didn't wikilink hands in the article, someone needs to. All horses are always measured at the withers, thus the average Thoroughbred is 16 hands or 64 inches at the place where the horse's neck meets the back--the highest point on the horse when the horse has its neck lowered. The photos show where the rider sits and as for weight, that is quite variable but I suppose someone could find an average. 1,200 lbs is probably close. Montanabw 04:53, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is quite incomplete. Half of the article is devoted to the breakdown rate and the possible causes of the breakdowns. It is severly lacking in a discussion about the history of the breed.
Gcal1971
15:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
ok, I will work on that. Gcal1971 20:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The whole article is about horse racing Dog jumper100 20:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
This sentence - "All modern Thoroughbreds carry the genetics of three stallions imported to England from the Middle East in the late 17th and early 18th centuries: the Darley Arabian, to whom 95% of today's Thoroughbred pedigrees trace" .. shouldn't this be that 95% of all Thoroughbreds descend from the Darley Arabian in the male line? I'm pretty sure that 100% of Thoroughbreds descend in all lines from the Big Three ... and didn't I see a study somewhere that had a statistical analysis of the percentage of ancestry all of the ancestor stallions had contributed to the Thoroughbred that showed that one of the lesser known stallions actually contributed more to the Thoroughbred than one of the Big Three? Hm.. off to search the library.... Ealdgyth | Talk 01:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Find the info, cite it, stick it in with footnotes and let's see how it holds up. Post a draft version here on this page if you want. Eclipse is also significant as far as appearing in an overwhelming majority of pedigrees and should be mentioned. Best to be fair and cite prevalance of all of the big three in pedigrees overall, the male line isn't the only significant source of genetic material, remember... <Grin> Montanabw 19:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Google has always been my best friend (grin). Many times you can indirectly pick up the cite from other works that reference it even if you can't access it directly. The Jockey Club websites (USA and UK) may also have useful links. Montanabw 02:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me this article is confused if it's about the thoroughbred horse as a breed or thoroughbred horse racing. I think the section discussing "controversies" in horse racing would be better moved to the horse racing article, which is in dire need of help (as I stated there). I also noticed there seemed to be very few in-text citations, but I'm not sure of WP's specific policy on this.
As a kid my forte was the TB and racing in general, so I'd like to see this article improve and do the breed some justice. Are thoroughbred lovers not as passionate as Arabian people? ;) There's quite a bit of squabbling over even the tiniest words over there... -jett
Would you like someone else to take over writing? I have still have some reservations about the way this article has been structure and its empahiases (sp.) on thoroughbred injuries. -- Gcal1971 ( talk) 19:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
As the breed this article is describing is "English thoroughbred" and the word thoroughbred applies to different breads of animals (OED: 2. Of a horse: Of pure breed or stock; spec. applied to a race-horse whose pedigree for a given number of generations is recorded in the studbook. Also of a dog, bull, etc.), I think that this article should be moved to English thoroughbred -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
More comment could be made concerning the Thoroughbred families, their numbers and Lowe, Bobinski etc. Cgoodwin 03:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not proposing mention of all the foundation mares,but I think that mention of the basic developement of some these families should be included as these family numbers are included today in many sale catalogues. A basic explanation is all that should be required. Initially Bruce Lowe named and numbered about 45 English families that were the very foundation of this breed and then there are all of the Bobinski families, quite a lot in all! Time has proven that families are very important in the breeding of Tbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgoodwin ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we could start a "sandbox" here to work up at least a summary paragraph. Or an article titled "Thoroughbred breeding." I don't disagree, but once you get past the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerly Turk in a general overview article, most people just glaze over. However, a paragraph in this article with worldwide basics would work with a link to a more detailed article for those with an interest. POV will, of course, be a problem, but if we don't go past, say, 1900, we might get away with it! <grin> Take a look at the section on foundation bloodlines in American Quarter Horse to get an idea of the length and general style I am thinking of. Montanabw (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the ommission. Here are some references: LOWE, Bruce: "Breeding Horses by the Figure System"; fascimile, 1977 Montgomery, E. S. The Thoroughbred New York: Arco Publishing, 1973
Thoroughbred Bloodlines: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm Thoroughbred Heritage: http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/FamilyNumbers.html
There are many more if needed. The low numbered families are still producing a lot of winners yet, but this may be attributable to larger numbers in those families? These numbers are certainly very helpful in research though. I’m sure that there are people out there that sometimes wonder what these numbers represent and how pedigrees are arranged, judging from the errors seen. I have contributed to the Colonial Taproot Mares sections in the links above. Some of the above many families are now extinct and I would not bother to expand on the above. Cgoodwin ( talk) 07:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Where have I gone wrong?? Sorry! Cgoodwin ( talk) 10:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
My fault, I used the "nowiki" tag so what I was doing would show up in the text, you don't use it in the editing. I will fix. Montanabw (talk) 18:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thoroughbred horses are traced through the distaff or female line, known as their family, to the beginning of the General Stud Book (GSB). This was done because the mares produce many less foals than the sires do. citation needed Thoroughbred Stud books around the world cite pedigrees in tail female style as: sire – 1st dam (ie mother) - dam sire – 2nd dam (ie maternal grand dam) – and her sire etc. Horses that come from “good’ families will usually command better prices than one with an inferior family.
In about 1895 an Australian, Bruce Lowe wrote a treatise titled Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System. This work formulated a system of family numbers from the GSB mares as explained by Lowe: “The figures are derived from a statistical compilation of the winners of the three great English classic races , Derby, Oaks and (St )Leger. The family with the largest number of wins is No. 1, the next No. 2 and so on up to No. 34, though the figures actually run up to 43 and include families whose descendants have not won a classic race".” [1]
For example, Old Bald Peg (6) is one of the earliest taproot dams, foaled c. 1650. Most, if not all modern Tbs trace their ancestry to her, through their sire and/or dam. citation needed
During the 1950s Captain Kaziemierz Bobinski and Count Zamoyski co-operated to produce the monumental work, Family Tables of Racehorses. This work expanded Bruce Lowe's numbering system of GSB families and included families from other nations:
Bobinski later updated his works and split Lowe's families into sub categories (family 1 taproot, Tregonwell's Natural Barb Mare”. [1] was sub-divided into 1-a [whose taproot mare was Bonny Lass], 1-b, 2-a etc). These numbers often follow a horse’s name in sale catalogues and pedigrees, much like a numerical surname. Today these family numbers are very helpful for checking the accuracy of pedigrees. Cgoodwin ( talk) 10:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thoroughbred horses are traced through the distaff or female line, known as their family, from the beginning of the General Stud Book. This was done because the mares produce many less foals than the sires do.(footnote 1) Thoroughbred Stud books around the world cite pedigrees in tail female style as: sire – 1st dam (ie mother) - dam sire – 2nd dam (ie maternal grand dam) – and her sire etc. Horses that come from “good’ families will usually command better prices than one with an inferior family.(footnote 2) The horses listed below may indicate an example of this.
Snaafi Dancer (6) [family #6], a bay colt purchased by Sheikh Mohammed for $US10,200,000 and did not race. Retired to stud in 1986, he was found to have a fertility problem and only produced 4 offspring, three named and one un-named foal.(footnote 3)
Tommy Smith bought Tulloch (24) [family #24] for 750 guineas in 1956 at the Trentham Yearling Sales in NZ. He was one of Australia's best racehorses having 53 starts for 36 wins, 12 seconds and 4 thirds during his racing career.(footnote 4)
In about 1895 an Australian, Bruce Lowe wrote: “Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System”. This work formulated a system of family numbers from the GSB mares as explained by Lowe: “The figures are derived from a statistical compilation of the winners of the three great English classic races , Derby, Oaks and (St )Leger. The family with the largest number of wins is No. 1, the next No. 2 and so on up to No. 34, though the figures actually run up to 43 and include families whose descendants have not won a classic race”. He goes on to write “My own impression is that even these three great progenitors (referring to the 3 foundation sires) owe their survival and fame mostly to the female lines they were mated with. The Figure system is based mainly upon identifying and tracing the origin of these female lines”. (footnote 5)
Old Bald Peg (6) is one of the earliest tap-root dams, having been foaled in c. 1635. Most, if not all modern Tbs trace their ancestry to her, through their dam and/or sire.(footnote 6) Many horses were linebred or inbred to her, which increased the chances of such an early mare appearing in pedigrees of Tbs and quite a few other horses, too. (footnote 7 and 8) During the 1950’s Captain Kaziemierz Bobinski and Count Zamoyski co-operated to produce the monumental work Family Tables of Racehorses (footnote 9), commonly known as the Bobinski Tables. This work expanded Bruce Lowe's numbering system and identified a total of 74 families tracing to mares in the GSB. There were mares in several countries whose pedigrees had been lost or whose descendants had been bred up from Arabians etc and were unacceptable at that time to the Stud Books concerned. The Family Table of Racehorses expanded research into these female families of racehorses not traceable to the GSB, including:
Bobinski later updated his works and split Lowe's families into sub categories (family 1 taproot, Tregonwell's Natural Barb Mare was sub-divided into 1-a [whose taproot mare was Bonny Lass], 1-b, 2-a etc). These numbers often follow a horse’s name in sale catalogues and pedigrees, much like a numerical surname. Today these family numbers are very helpful for checking the accuracy of pedigrees and comparing the contributions made by mares and their families.
1 and 2 “Blood Will Tell” by Miles Napier; J A Allen, London p. 17-18
3 http://www.pedigreequery.com/snaafi+dancer
4 http://www.pedigreequery.com/tulloch
5 "Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System”, compiled by Bruce Lowe, Edited by William Allison; The Field and Queen, London, facsimile, 1977; p. 2
6 Look here for racing's roots: http://archive.thisisyork.co.uk/2003/10/13/258161.html
7 Inbreeding: http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/inbreeding.htm
8 http://www.wildhorseadvertising.com/
9 Bloodlines: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Notes/ReferenceBooks.htm
<<Links>> Family Numbers: http://www.reines-de-course.com/family_numbers.htm
Family Numbers: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm
I can't come up with an on the spot citation for the numbers, and the Tb and QH do their tallying differently. In North America I have no doubt that the QH are well ahead. Scrap that line! Cgoodwin ( talk) 05:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, sorry for the confusion! I have included the footnotes and hope that they now make sense. Cgoodwin ( talk) 09:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm beginning to work on this article in order to ready it for a nomination to Good Article status. The article really needs some work on organization, references, general cleanup and some expansion. If you have suggestions, comments, or would like to help, please feel free to post here or BE BOLD! As for my plans - I am first going to work on the cleanup and organization, then look to see what needs expansion. If you see things that look halfway done...they probably are! I'm working on this as I have time, and I may have to stop in the middle of some edits. Thanks! Dana boomer ( talk) 16:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Ugh. The origins section needs serious expansion. Probably could use a section on numbers of Thoroughbreds around the world. France, UK, South America, New Zealand, India, Australia, the US, ... other spots? Ealdgyth | Talk 19:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If we can whip this one into shape, the next challenge is horse racing and several related articles that are a disorganized disaster! Although for WikiProject Equine, I think horse tack and equine conformation may rank higher on the priority list, given that horse racing has its own project, however inactive it appears to be at the moment. Montanabw (talk) 03:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There, I think I've got the major breeding countries covered with at least stub sections. Expansion from there should be relatively easy, I hope. I'm going to make a pass at citations and then call it a night. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I'm done for a bit. Next? Ealdgyth | Talk 16:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Are all updated to use the citation template, so I don't have to try to remember whether the period goes after the author or before the publisher or whatever. I am PROBABLY done for a bit. I can only handle working on an article so long before i go insane. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Starting a new section for easier editing...
My thoughts are that what is needed next is:
One concern (partly in response to Countercanter's remarks on Montana's talk page) is that we don't want too much information that should be in the horse racing articles here. A summary is good, but for the most part we should just point them to those articles as the "main" ones. This article is already fairly long, and having redundant information will make it start to be yawn-inspiring, IMHO.
I'm not sure how much work I'll be able to do on the article over the next couple of days. We're having a fairly severe ice storm over my part of the country right at the moment, and it's threatening to cut off power and basically shut everything down, so I'm not sure how much access I'll have to the internet (lovely dial-up away from work!). I'll get on as much as possible, but I'm not sure how much help I'll be in the last stages toward GA. The article is looking great though...much better than it did a week or so ago! Dana boomer ( talk) 20:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I've done some work on the breed lines, trying to make it less eye-crossing and more readable for people who aren't breed experts. Please feel free to edit more...
NOTE: In the first quote it says Lowe developed 43 families, later, in the second to last paragraph, it says he developed 50. I don't have the sources, so could someone please fix this contradiction? Dana boomer ( talk) 21:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
There 43 families in his book. More families were traced later by others. Cgoodwin ( talk) 00:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Half brothers and sisters are horses which have the same dam but a different sire(not applied to horses by the same sire). Cgoodwin ( talk) 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not being able to find much online about the history of Thoroughbreds in Australia/New Zealand, Japan and South America. What would you all think about combining these sections into one and titling it something like "Thoroughbreds Around the World" or "Thoroughbreds in Other Locations"? On the other hand, if people have more info on these sections, I would love to see them expanded...I'm just not having much luck doing it myself!
I know that Ealdgyth is out of town and Montana's been busy with some rather large brush fires, but comments would be appreciated. Dana boomer ( talk) 18:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
CGoodwin is good on Australian stuff, ask her. I think that Au/NZ will probably wind up staying in its own section once she is done adding material, but otherwise, combining the sections into an "around the world" section would work, at least until each nation is more than a single paragraph. I mean, there is Japan, South America, South Africa, Dubai...the list is truly endless, and articles on every nation in the world, well, look at the mess horse racing is in...!
As for other large brush fires, WHY ME GOD!!!???!!! It really IS called quality control, I just have one nerve left, ARRGH! (OK, trying to find an LOL here too!) I need a hug... Montanabw (talk) 05:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations Dana boomer on your work on this article. - Cuddy Wifter ( talk) 05:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I expanded the TB in america section, it should be reasonably complete now. I'm going to work on the European section a bit shortly. Ealdgyth | Talk 18:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree the flow could be better. I'm thinking some of it is the location of the first three sections, the ones on Word usage, breed characteristics and age. It might be worth sitting down and thinking of a standardized format for the breed articles, so that they all share the same framework and order. But in this particular case, I think that the word and age sections are too minor for major section, and need to be incorporated somewhere else, at the very least at the end of the article. I'm still not sure where the Breed Lines subsection fits best at. Honestly, it'd probably be best to put that information into their own article, and deal with Bobinski numbers, Lowe families, and dosage in that article. Call it "Thoroughbred Breeding theories" or something like that. In light of that .. I have The Theory and Science of Thoroughbred Genetics on pre-order, which might be nice to incorporate into this article eventually. Dana mentioned that she's concerned about a few sources, mind listing them so we can work on replacing them? Ealdgyth | Talk 18:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds does have a rough template. However, if we look to the layout of our previous GAs, Appaloosa and Arabian horse, maybe that will give us something more solid, to the extent that the structure of those articles differs from the project outline. Both share the characteristics of being breeds with a LOT of historical stuff, and the Arabian article has a number of sections related to different nations. I like the idea of breaking out the breeding theories section, haven't read the new article yet,,, I actually think I am starting to get the system a little, but Cgoodwin is the one who created that section and seems to know it best. As for overall organizing, if you have a spare ream of paper, sometimes the thing to do is to just print out the article, spread it out on the floor, and look at the entire thing at once. Another useful tool is to just look at the outline that is automatically generated and see if the sections are arranged in a sensible way. I am sort of clearing out the remnants of my little brush fire in the tack articles, but I will TRY to give this a good look see over the next couple of days. Montanabw (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
GA pre-pre-review...
I don't claim to have caught every bit of awkward prose. I've stared at this article too much to be able to do that! Honestly, if we could find out more about foreign breeding statistics and stuff, we're getting close to FA on this. Or at least closer. I'm going to set up archiving on this page too, it's starting to get a bit long. Anyone object to MizaBot archiving it automatically, say after 30 days? Ealdgyth | Talk 00:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I marked off above the ones that I've completed. I expanded the lead some, but it still needs more work. Some tweaking is still in order in the history summary I think, it feels off to me but I can't get it to read right. I don't know, maybe you'll have better luck! Dana boomer ( talk) 13:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Gwinva says she'll look it over after things calm down within the next two weeks. Otherwise, it's looking pretty good. I'll try to do a copyedit pass this weekend. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I pulled out the last redlinks, they need articles, but I'm not going to get to them any time soon. No sense holding the redlink for them. We're looking good on size, 43K of readable prose. A bit higher than most FA's, but not by much. Readablity tests shows nothing horrid. Let Gwinva look it over again and we'll see what happens. Dana's done great work here! Now to work on Horse.... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Done! Put it up as a joint nom. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of April 18, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:
For readability, please place any comments or questions pertaining to the hold below rather than within the body of the review. Thank you!
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Van Tucky 03:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
We probably should move the controversies, etc. into the main text, if we're going to go to FAC. FAC prefers that the sections not be separate, and we'll just run into this issue again at FAC. I added a backup print ref for the terminology section, just to keep thinks working (I really dislike googlebooks refs, as they aren't always accessable to all folks). What else needs to be dealt with besides the controversies? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as the "Controversies" section goes, would we solve much of the problem by just naming it "Health Issues" or something similar? It is pretty much all about the health and breakdowns stuff, which isn't so much a "controversy" like, say, abortion is a controversy, it's more an ongoing debate over how bad the problem is, why it occurs and what to do about it. Montanabw (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I don't mean to break the flow of your work, but is this a good time for me to pass the article? I prefer to have a semi-stable version to pass (i.e. one that isn't waiting for the group to agree on). Thanks, Van Tucky 17:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I've passed the article as GA class. Thanks very much for your hard work and your patience. Congratulations, and I look forward to seeing this at FAC. Best regards, Van Tucky 02:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:Good article usage is a survey of the language and style of Wikipedia editors in articles being reviewed for Good article nomination. It will help make the experience of writing Good Articles as non-threatening and satisfying as possible if all the participating editors would take a moment to answer a few questions for us, in this section please. The survey will end on April 30.
At any point during this review, let us know if we recommend any edits, including markup, punctuation and language, that you feel don't fit with your writing style. Thanks for your time. - Dan
Dank55 (
talk)(
mistakes)
04:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Feedback: No, amount provided seems OK, particularly as "sparkling prose" is kind of a fuzzy concept. Write a lot outside wikipedia: Yes, but I try to keep my profession anonymous on wiki and thus details here would disclose it, but I do write a considerable amount of essentially technical, non-fiction (though considerably creativity is often required - grin) work requiring extensive citation to authority as part of my profession. Unrelated to my day job, I have also published a few articles on horse-related topics in assorted regional horse magazines and in one nationally-distributed periodical. Influences within wiki: Not really, though the Military History WikiProject members raked me over the coals pretty good when I started and helped make me what I am today.
What doesn't fit with my writing style: Sometimes the feedback on articles is a little bit too "term paper 101" in terms of mechanistic insistence on a footnote for every paragraph, (when some paragraphs may need one every sentence and at other times the same source may be used for an entire subsection). The concept that the lead needs to mechanically touch on each article section as opposed to being a catchy summary to draw in the reader is also a bit too "SAT essay" for my tastes. But those are mostly just whines.
Hope this helps. Montanabw (talk) 22:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I know I am late to the party, but it seems that notes do have their place. While I agree that this place is not in the references section, there is a relatively simple way to separate the two. I guess the relevant questions here are a) how important are the notes for this article, and b) can a GA article have a notes section separate from a references section...
Here's a little example:
Thoroughbreds are fast. [1] Thoroughbreds are pretty. a Actively racing thoroughbreds have high density cannon bones. [2]
Notes
[a] Getwood thinks so
References
My point is not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, especially since this problem seems to already be resolved, and the article is approaching GA status... But, I thought it was at least worth bringing up. Thanks, Getwood ( talk) 01:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I also was unaware you can do that. It’s indeed a good way to handle it.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 09:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've begun to switch over the references from magazines and newspapers to the new format. I've only done a few, because I'm not completely sure if I'm doing them right *grin*. Ealdgyth, could you check out refs 22-26 and see if this is what you were thinking of? I'm trying to copy what you did with the Easy Jet article, but I'm not totally sure I'm getting it :) Please let me know, and I'll finish up the rest of them... Thanks! Dana boomer ( talk) 20:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I will be gone until Sunday evening, and unable to access the internet during that time. I have been a minor contributor to this page, and trust the judgement of the major editors Ealdgyth, Dana boomer and Montanabw. The edited version of the Health section is viewable at User:Getwood/Sandbox/Thoroughbred. At the top of the page, edits are viewable. At the bottom of the page is a clean version without strikeouts, etc. I will be happy with whatever the group comes up with (as long as the fragile bones thing stays gone... See Wolff's law for explanation of bone modeling in response to load). Thanks, and a great weekend to all. Getwood ( talk) 15:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the next step is probably a peer review. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and list it in the morning, it usually runs for two weeks or so. I'm going to be out of town until the 11th or so. I'll have internet intermittantly, just no library of books, so that'll limit some of my usefulness. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
It's up at FAC now. It usually takes a bit of time before the feeding frenzy starts. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Did some fast research on TB prices, here are links and my summary. Not sure where or if this needs to go into the article, but for what it's worth:
Hope this is a start. I kind of wonder if the price thing has a good place to be worked in and if it would be a PITA to maintain, as data could get dated so fast? Montanabw (talk) 21:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I heard that more injuries happen in the US because of the type of tracks the horses run on. i don't have a reliable source Elie ( talk) 23:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I just came over to say support after all that and you'd already got your gong. Well done. Fainites barley 19:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for information on avg length and wgt for adult thoroughbreds. I was wonder if anybody else thinks this info is interesting and/or important and should be included? (Sorry but I am still looking for accurate data so I can't be any help - but maybe the contrib's to the article know what/where to look.) Thanks
MajorDill ( talk) 19:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think anyone bothers to measure the length of horses, even chest to tail (for buying blankets) people have to get out a tape...and it's really rather impossible to measure neck to tail because of how much mobility is in a horse's neck... as for weight, we have thought about adding that, but the problem is finding a good enough quality source that had any kind of scientifically verifiable averages. We looked at the question when the article went up for FA status and couldn't find good enough stats. For your own information, I can say that many TB's will probably weigh in between 1,000 and 1,200 lbs, but that's a real rough average, and doesn't reflect more than the rough average weight for a well-conditioned horse of around 16 hands...a fat 17 hand retiree could easily be heavier! Montanabw (talk) 06:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I have, once again, corrected the conversion from hands high to centimeters since the numbers given were totally wrong. I hope that this time user:Montanabw will keep his hands off the changes. Or better still fix the converter since it seems like the same f* up conversion has been used for all horse breeds on Wikipedia... Allan Akbar ( talk) 20:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The various colour terms reverted here [1] are, I'm pretty sure, known in America only. If they are restored this point should be made clear. Johnbod ( talk) 09:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Thoroughreds are amazingly fast horses, they are capable of going up to 45 mph. They have long legs so they are also know for jumping but not as much as they are for racing. If you are looking for a jumper or a racer go straight to one of these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.194.194.43 ( talk) 05:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
diff: Dana boomer reverted with the stated reason of "Reverting edits to sources that removed some and messed up formatting on others." I'd like to know which sources were removed and how you think that my changes to citation templates messed up the formatting? What is the benefit of separating the citations to abstracts and full articles? What's the benefit of having "Who's Your Momma II" use the wrong URL? What's the benefit of having three references repeat the citation to Hill et al. 2002 instead of listing it separately like I did? — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 15:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Is it 'Thoroughbred' or should it be 'thoroughbred'? Why the capital T? -- SGBailey ( talk) 07:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I found the table below to be quite garish and to interfere with the flow of the article. The data is interesting, a lot of work went into the creation of the table, and it well may be suitable for a separate article on the value of Thoroughbreds, so am parking it here rather than removing it. If consensus is to restore it, I will go along with the majority, but I feel it constitutes a WP:UNDUE problem when the Thoroughbred is far more than just an expensive racehorse. I also found that it visually interfered with the flow of the article as well. Nothing at all personal, I just don't think it fits with this general, overview article. Montanabw (talk) 00:44, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record: policy and courtesy, especially to those who actually create value here, is to leave the non-offensive Wikipedia-compliant table in the article pending the results of a discussion. I don't care where it goes, so long as it is properly referenced for easy location as it is in fact essential information on the Project subject that is constantly referred to in Thoroughbred racing publications everywhere. Handicapper ( talk) 11:30, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
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cite web}}
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help)
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My 2008 Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac gives the above list (minus Green Monkey - why they don't have that I do not know, as the bloodhorse link is more than solid enough of a RS) with their subsequent race record, if that information is desired, it could be added. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
P.S. - If you are so inclined, input here would also be appreciated. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing#New Category discussion
I haven't checked out the above link, but I think an entire separate article on the value of Thoroughbreds would actually be really interesting, worth writing, obviously would quickly get to be pretty substantial (comparing prices in various nations or historical trends, etc...) and we could easily link to it from here with a "main" link from the "value" subsection. Montanabw (talk) 03:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just noting that I added some info on the low end of the TB world to the valuation section, noting Ferdinand being sold for slaughter (hey and he was a grandson of Northern Dancer). And I tossed all the trivia on Northern Dancer moved to valuation article), other than the record stud fee, which I thought was quite relevant and fit in with the other stud fee info. I think we want to avoid getting into too much trivia, particularly focused on one horse or one nation (else we lose FA status and this article will start to resemble horse racing.) If we want a good sob story on a cheap TB with a happier ending, here's onefrom today where an injured TB was sold for $50 to an illegal slaughter facility in Florida, but rescued. I don't really know how far we want to go into this whole thing, but figuring out what horses are worth is definitely a whole separate topic, and IMHO, this article just needs a general overview of the concept that "some Thoroughbreds can be very expensive." I don't know if there exist any stats on what a good, well-trained OTTB sold as a show hunter is worth, but it would be interesting. I just am concerned about going completely into statistics and horse racing trivia. Montanabw (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
....does not show the horse very well. If you are going to describe a thoroughbred (or any breeed for that matter) you need a leed pic that shows the characteristics to best advantage. This pic would be my first choice. Amandajm ( talk) 06:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Do note that the link [4] responds with a "HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found" header and was automatically marked as a {{ Dead link}} because of this. This is an error on the website's part. The link was added into bot's exceptions list. — HELLKNOWZ ▎ TALK 16:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Found very interesting articles on mtDNA in TB mares. Maybe here or in the related articles on breeding and bloodlines some of this material could perhaps be added. Montanabw (talk) 05:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC) [5] and [6]
This claim Racing has been proven to have a higher fatality rate than all other legal human and animal sports appeared in the lead until I have just removed it, and is in the blurb due to go up on Main Page tomorrow. There is no substantiation of the claim/accusation in the article, nor is it clear whose mortality is being described: equine, human, all animals? If no clarification and verification is forthcoming, it really should be removed from the Main Page material. Kevin McE ( talk) 07:25, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Ah, found it!! Knew I wasn't going crazy. You can see the sourced statement in the Health issues section of this version. It looks like it was sourced to a Chicago Sports Review article that then had its link go dead - I'm assuming we removed it because of this, although I don't really remember. However, I still can't find a good link for that article, so the factoid is going to have to stay out of the article until/if someone finds a new source. Dana boomer ( talk) 21:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Main page? Joys. I'm on the road ... heh! Lucky you two... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
...and who wrote the summary? The way they did it combines sentences to say "horse" too many times in the very first line. It can't be edited so who can fix this before it hits the main page? Montanabw (talk) 21:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
What is the evidence that the foundation stallions were Arabs? One was not even called 'arab'. Suggest that this claim should not be perpetuated until and unless supported by proper references and evidence. It is widely suggested, including in wikipedia itself, that the Byerley and the Darley were in fact Akhal-Teke or Turkmenian horses. Iconographic evidence supports this theory. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 11:04, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm... had the idea that unreferenced and unsupported assertions were to be removed, aggressively; is this a misprision? I'm perplexed as to why 'Arabian' has been reinserted in the absence of any reference that confirms that the three foundation stallions were in fact Arabs; this is one of those 'everybody knows that...' arte-facts, unsupported and patently contradicted by the iconographic and linguistic evidence. Please note that the Byerley Turk was called 'the Byerley Turk'. Agree that the varied origin of mares is well covered (excuse pun!). See the Turkoman article, or the Akhal-Teke article, or almost any one of the outside links given by it, for support of my 'widely disputed' assertion. Suggested wording: '... native mares were crossbred with imported Oriental stallions.' (or, if preferred, '... eastern stallions.', as in Hartley-Edwards, E. The Encyclopedia of the Horse, DK, London, 1994, p118). The properly referenced discussion of whether the three foundation sires were in fact of Akhal-Teke, Arabian, Turkoman or indeed some other origin belongs in the body of the article, where it is currently entirely lacking, and will need to be written by someone a very great deal more expert than myself. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 15:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Please read this for clarification: http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/foundation-turks.htm Jeremy James did a lot of research on this topic. I would clearly change the text to 'Turkoman', but I will let you do this. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.181.130 ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
The Byerley Turk by Jeremy James? Came out 8–10 years ago? I think it's supposed to be fictional. Agree about not arguing from silence, it's no proof of anything; but it is something that should cause us to doubt certainty. There's really a lot of silence on the subject, too, in apparently relatively reputable places such as
this. Anyone who wants to go totally insane over this should read
this page and dozens more like it by the same guy, all of which prove that every single stallion was in fact not the one you thought he was (the Byerley was the Lister, The Darley was Curwen's Bay Barb, etc. (or was it the other way round?)).
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
17:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Following the latest edit by User:Montanabw on 11 April 2011 (which I didn't notice yesterday), this article again presents the non-neutral view that the three foundation sires were all Arabs. I have therefore put a POV tag on the article, and marked as 'dubious' the two occurrences of the word 'Arabian' that promote this non-neutral view. The second of these is apparently an outright error, as it appears to assert that all the 200-plus oriental stallions that contributed to the Thoroughbred were Arabs. My reasoning:
I wanted to insert 'Arabian' in this sentence, so looked at the reference,
28. That page does not make the statement in the sentence, nor does it include the word 'Turk'; it is an interesting discussion of erroneous mare registrations discovered by haplotype divergence. Some error here, perhaps?
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
12:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The article includes this sentence: "It was then that handicapping, a system of adding weight to attempt to equalize a horse's chances of winning as well as improved training procedures, began to be used." Does anyone have any idea what it is supposed to mean? I know I don't. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 11:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I was looking across Wikipedia to see if there was an article on horse names, but all I found was a stub on Ethiopian kings. I would appreciate if someone could add a section to this or another appropriate article. There must be some theories about why horse names are so absurd, and I am curious to know about the "evolution" and history of horse names. Where horses a hundred years ago named "Fruit O'Rooney", "Mystical Diva", "Lots Of Pride" etc.? Dr bab ( talk) 09:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article states that thoroughbread horses stand 64 inches high. Is this to the top of their head? How high does the rider sit? The article also does not state how much these horses generally weigh. Added this information would be appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaedglass ( talk • contribs) 22:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
If they didn't wikilink hands in the article, someone needs to. All horses are always measured at the withers, thus the average Thoroughbred is 16 hands or 64 inches at the place where the horse's neck meets the back--the highest point on the horse when the horse has its neck lowered. The photos show where the rider sits and as for weight, that is quite variable but I suppose someone could find an average. 1,200 lbs is probably close. Montanabw 04:53, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is quite incomplete. Half of the article is devoted to the breakdown rate and the possible causes of the breakdowns. It is severly lacking in a discussion about the history of the breed.
Gcal1971
15:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
ok, I will work on that. Gcal1971 20:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The whole article is about horse racing Dog jumper100 20:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
This sentence - "All modern Thoroughbreds carry the genetics of three stallions imported to England from the Middle East in the late 17th and early 18th centuries: the Darley Arabian, to whom 95% of today's Thoroughbred pedigrees trace" .. shouldn't this be that 95% of all Thoroughbreds descend from the Darley Arabian in the male line? I'm pretty sure that 100% of Thoroughbreds descend in all lines from the Big Three ... and didn't I see a study somewhere that had a statistical analysis of the percentage of ancestry all of the ancestor stallions had contributed to the Thoroughbred that showed that one of the lesser known stallions actually contributed more to the Thoroughbred than one of the Big Three? Hm.. off to search the library.... Ealdgyth | Talk 01:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Find the info, cite it, stick it in with footnotes and let's see how it holds up. Post a draft version here on this page if you want. Eclipse is also significant as far as appearing in an overwhelming majority of pedigrees and should be mentioned. Best to be fair and cite prevalance of all of the big three in pedigrees overall, the male line isn't the only significant source of genetic material, remember... <Grin> Montanabw 19:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Google has always been my best friend (grin). Many times you can indirectly pick up the cite from other works that reference it even if you can't access it directly. The Jockey Club websites (USA and UK) may also have useful links. Montanabw 02:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me this article is confused if it's about the thoroughbred horse as a breed or thoroughbred horse racing. I think the section discussing "controversies" in horse racing would be better moved to the horse racing article, which is in dire need of help (as I stated there). I also noticed there seemed to be very few in-text citations, but I'm not sure of WP's specific policy on this.
As a kid my forte was the TB and racing in general, so I'd like to see this article improve and do the breed some justice. Are thoroughbred lovers not as passionate as Arabian people? ;) There's quite a bit of squabbling over even the tiniest words over there... -jett
Would you like someone else to take over writing? I have still have some reservations about the way this article has been structure and its empahiases (sp.) on thoroughbred injuries. -- Gcal1971 ( talk) 19:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
As the breed this article is describing is "English thoroughbred" and the word thoroughbred applies to different breads of animals (OED: 2. Of a horse: Of pure breed or stock; spec. applied to a race-horse whose pedigree for a given number of generations is recorded in the studbook. Also of a dog, bull, etc.), I think that this article should be moved to English thoroughbred -- Philip Baird Shearer 14:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
More comment could be made concerning the Thoroughbred families, their numbers and Lowe, Bobinski etc. Cgoodwin 03:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not proposing mention of all the foundation mares,but I think that mention of the basic developement of some these families should be included as these family numbers are included today in many sale catalogues. A basic explanation is all that should be required. Initially Bruce Lowe named and numbered about 45 English families that were the very foundation of this breed and then there are all of the Bobinski families, quite a lot in all! Time has proven that families are very important in the breeding of Tbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgoodwin ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we could start a "sandbox" here to work up at least a summary paragraph. Or an article titled "Thoroughbred breeding." I don't disagree, but once you get past the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerly Turk in a general overview article, most people just glaze over. However, a paragraph in this article with worldwide basics would work with a link to a more detailed article for those with an interest. POV will, of course, be a problem, but if we don't go past, say, 1900, we might get away with it! <grin> Take a look at the section on foundation bloodlines in American Quarter Horse to get an idea of the length and general style I am thinking of. Montanabw (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the ommission. Here are some references: LOWE, Bruce: "Breeding Horses by the Figure System"; fascimile, 1977 Montgomery, E. S. The Thoroughbred New York: Arco Publishing, 1973
Thoroughbred Bloodlines: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm Thoroughbred Heritage: http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/FamilyNumbers.html
There are many more if needed. The low numbered families are still producing a lot of winners yet, but this may be attributable to larger numbers in those families? These numbers are certainly very helpful in research though. I’m sure that there are people out there that sometimes wonder what these numbers represent and how pedigrees are arranged, judging from the errors seen. I have contributed to the Colonial Taproot Mares sections in the links above. Some of the above many families are now extinct and I would not bother to expand on the above. Cgoodwin ( talk) 07:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Where have I gone wrong?? Sorry! Cgoodwin ( talk) 10:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
My fault, I used the "nowiki" tag so what I was doing would show up in the text, you don't use it in the editing. I will fix. Montanabw (talk) 18:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thoroughbred horses are traced through the distaff or female line, known as their family, to the beginning of the General Stud Book (GSB). This was done because the mares produce many less foals than the sires do. citation needed Thoroughbred Stud books around the world cite pedigrees in tail female style as: sire – 1st dam (ie mother) - dam sire – 2nd dam (ie maternal grand dam) – and her sire etc. Horses that come from “good’ families will usually command better prices than one with an inferior family.
In about 1895 an Australian, Bruce Lowe wrote a treatise titled Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System. This work formulated a system of family numbers from the GSB mares as explained by Lowe: “The figures are derived from a statistical compilation of the winners of the three great English classic races , Derby, Oaks and (St )Leger. The family with the largest number of wins is No. 1, the next No. 2 and so on up to No. 34, though the figures actually run up to 43 and include families whose descendants have not won a classic race".” [1]
For example, Old Bald Peg (6) is one of the earliest taproot dams, foaled c. 1650. Most, if not all modern Tbs trace their ancestry to her, through their sire and/or dam. citation needed
During the 1950s Captain Kaziemierz Bobinski and Count Zamoyski co-operated to produce the monumental work, Family Tables of Racehorses. This work expanded Bruce Lowe's numbering system of GSB families and included families from other nations:
Bobinski later updated his works and split Lowe's families into sub categories (family 1 taproot, Tregonwell's Natural Barb Mare”. [1] was sub-divided into 1-a [whose taproot mare was Bonny Lass], 1-b, 2-a etc). These numbers often follow a horse’s name in sale catalogues and pedigrees, much like a numerical surname. Today these family numbers are very helpful for checking the accuracy of pedigrees. Cgoodwin ( talk) 10:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thoroughbred horses are traced through the distaff or female line, known as their family, from the beginning of the General Stud Book. This was done because the mares produce many less foals than the sires do.(footnote 1) Thoroughbred Stud books around the world cite pedigrees in tail female style as: sire – 1st dam (ie mother) - dam sire – 2nd dam (ie maternal grand dam) – and her sire etc. Horses that come from “good’ families will usually command better prices than one with an inferior family.(footnote 2) The horses listed below may indicate an example of this.
Snaafi Dancer (6) [family #6], a bay colt purchased by Sheikh Mohammed for $US10,200,000 and did not race. Retired to stud in 1986, he was found to have a fertility problem and only produced 4 offspring, three named and one un-named foal.(footnote 3)
Tommy Smith bought Tulloch (24) [family #24] for 750 guineas in 1956 at the Trentham Yearling Sales in NZ. He was one of Australia's best racehorses having 53 starts for 36 wins, 12 seconds and 4 thirds during his racing career.(footnote 4)
In about 1895 an Australian, Bruce Lowe wrote: “Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System”. This work formulated a system of family numbers from the GSB mares as explained by Lowe: “The figures are derived from a statistical compilation of the winners of the three great English classic races , Derby, Oaks and (St )Leger. The family with the largest number of wins is No. 1, the next No. 2 and so on up to No. 34, though the figures actually run up to 43 and include families whose descendants have not won a classic race”. He goes on to write “My own impression is that even these three great progenitors (referring to the 3 foundation sires) owe their survival and fame mostly to the female lines they were mated with. The Figure system is based mainly upon identifying and tracing the origin of these female lines”. (footnote 5)
Old Bald Peg (6) is one of the earliest tap-root dams, having been foaled in c. 1635. Most, if not all modern Tbs trace their ancestry to her, through their dam and/or sire.(footnote 6) Many horses were linebred or inbred to her, which increased the chances of such an early mare appearing in pedigrees of Tbs and quite a few other horses, too. (footnote 7 and 8) During the 1950’s Captain Kaziemierz Bobinski and Count Zamoyski co-operated to produce the monumental work Family Tables of Racehorses (footnote 9), commonly known as the Bobinski Tables. This work expanded Bruce Lowe's numbering system and identified a total of 74 families tracing to mares in the GSB. There were mares in several countries whose pedigrees had been lost or whose descendants had been bred up from Arabians etc and were unacceptable at that time to the Stud Books concerned. The Family Table of Racehorses expanded research into these female families of racehorses not traceable to the GSB, including:
Bobinski later updated his works and split Lowe's families into sub categories (family 1 taproot, Tregonwell's Natural Barb Mare was sub-divided into 1-a [whose taproot mare was Bonny Lass], 1-b, 2-a etc). These numbers often follow a horse’s name in sale catalogues and pedigrees, much like a numerical surname. Today these family numbers are very helpful for checking the accuracy of pedigrees and comparing the contributions made by mares and their families.
1 and 2 “Blood Will Tell” by Miles Napier; J A Allen, London p. 17-18
3 http://www.pedigreequery.com/snaafi+dancer
4 http://www.pedigreequery.com/tulloch
5 "Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System”, compiled by Bruce Lowe, Edited by William Allison; The Field and Queen, London, facsimile, 1977; p. 2
6 Look here for racing's roots: http://archive.thisisyork.co.uk/2003/10/13/258161.html
7 Inbreeding: http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/inbreeding.htm
8 http://www.wildhorseadvertising.com/
9 Bloodlines: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Notes/ReferenceBooks.htm
<<Links>> Family Numbers: http://www.reines-de-course.com/family_numbers.htm
Family Numbers: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm
I can't come up with an on the spot citation for the numbers, and the Tb and QH do their tallying differently. In North America I have no doubt that the QH are well ahead. Scrap that line! Cgoodwin ( talk) 05:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, sorry for the confusion! I have included the footnotes and hope that they now make sense. Cgoodwin ( talk) 09:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm beginning to work on this article in order to ready it for a nomination to Good Article status. The article really needs some work on organization, references, general cleanup and some expansion. If you have suggestions, comments, or would like to help, please feel free to post here or BE BOLD! As for my plans - I am first going to work on the cleanup and organization, then look to see what needs expansion. If you see things that look halfway done...they probably are! I'm working on this as I have time, and I may have to stop in the middle of some edits. Thanks! Dana boomer ( talk) 16:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Ugh. The origins section needs serious expansion. Probably could use a section on numbers of Thoroughbreds around the world. France, UK, South America, New Zealand, India, Australia, the US, ... other spots? Ealdgyth | Talk 19:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If we can whip this one into shape, the next challenge is horse racing and several related articles that are a disorganized disaster! Although for WikiProject Equine, I think horse tack and equine conformation may rank higher on the priority list, given that horse racing has its own project, however inactive it appears to be at the moment. Montanabw (talk) 03:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There, I think I've got the major breeding countries covered with at least stub sections. Expansion from there should be relatively easy, I hope. I'm going to make a pass at citations and then call it a night. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I'm done for a bit. Next? Ealdgyth | Talk 16:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Are all updated to use the citation template, so I don't have to try to remember whether the period goes after the author or before the publisher or whatever. I am PROBABLY done for a bit. I can only handle working on an article so long before i go insane. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Starting a new section for easier editing...
My thoughts are that what is needed next is:
One concern (partly in response to Countercanter's remarks on Montana's talk page) is that we don't want too much information that should be in the horse racing articles here. A summary is good, but for the most part we should just point them to those articles as the "main" ones. This article is already fairly long, and having redundant information will make it start to be yawn-inspiring, IMHO.
I'm not sure how much work I'll be able to do on the article over the next couple of days. We're having a fairly severe ice storm over my part of the country right at the moment, and it's threatening to cut off power and basically shut everything down, so I'm not sure how much access I'll have to the internet (lovely dial-up away from work!). I'll get on as much as possible, but I'm not sure how much help I'll be in the last stages toward GA. The article is looking great though...much better than it did a week or so ago! Dana boomer ( talk) 20:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I've done some work on the breed lines, trying to make it less eye-crossing and more readable for people who aren't breed experts. Please feel free to edit more...
NOTE: In the first quote it says Lowe developed 43 families, later, in the second to last paragraph, it says he developed 50. I don't have the sources, so could someone please fix this contradiction? Dana boomer ( talk) 21:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
There 43 families in his book. More families were traced later by others. Cgoodwin ( talk) 00:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Half brothers and sisters are horses which have the same dam but a different sire(not applied to horses by the same sire). Cgoodwin ( talk) 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not being able to find much online about the history of Thoroughbreds in Australia/New Zealand, Japan and South America. What would you all think about combining these sections into one and titling it something like "Thoroughbreds Around the World" or "Thoroughbreds in Other Locations"? On the other hand, if people have more info on these sections, I would love to see them expanded...I'm just not having much luck doing it myself!
I know that Ealdgyth is out of town and Montana's been busy with some rather large brush fires, but comments would be appreciated. Dana boomer ( talk) 18:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
CGoodwin is good on Australian stuff, ask her. I think that Au/NZ will probably wind up staying in its own section once she is done adding material, but otherwise, combining the sections into an "around the world" section would work, at least until each nation is more than a single paragraph. I mean, there is Japan, South America, South Africa, Dubai...the list is truly endless, and articles on every nation in the world, well, look at the mess horse racing is in...!
As for other large brush fires, WHY ME GOD!!!???!!! It really IS called quality control, I just have one nerve left, ARRGH! (OK, trying to find an LOL here too!) I need a hug... Montanabw (talk) 05:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations Dana boomer on your work on this article. - Cuddy Wifter ( talk) 05:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I expanded the TB in america section, it should be reasonably complete now. I'm going to work on the European section a bit shortly. Ealdgyth | Talk 18:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree the flow could be better. I'm thinking some of it is the location of the first three sections, the ones on Word usage, breed characteristics and age. It might be worth sitting down and thinking of a standardized format for the breed articles, so that they all share the same framework and order. But in this particular case, I think that the word and age sections are too minor for major section, and need to be incorporated somewhere else, at the very least at the end of the article. I'm still not sure where the Breed Lines subsection fits best at. Honestly, it'd probably be best to put that information into their own article, and deal with Bobinski numbers, Lowe families, and dosage in that article. Call it "Thoroughbred Breeding theories" or something like that. In light of that .. I have The Theory and Science of Thoroughbred Genetics on pre-order, which might be nice to incorporate into this article eventually. Dana mentioned that she's concerned about a few sources, mind listing them so we can work on replacing them? Ealdgyth | Talk 18:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds does have a rough template. However, if we look to the layout of our previous GAs, Appaloosa and Arabian horse, maybe that will give us something more solid, to the extent that the structure of those articles differs from the project outline. Both share the characteristics of being breeds with a LOT of historical stuff, and the Arabian article has a number of sections related to different nations. I like the idea of breaking out the breeding theories section, haven't read the new article yet,,, I actually think I am starting to get the system a little, but Cgoodwin is the one who created that section and seems to know it best. As for overall organizing, if you have a spare ream of paper, sometimes the thing to do is to just print out the article, spread it out on the floor, and look at the entire thing at once. Another useful tool is to just look at the outline that is automatically generated and see if the sections are arranged in a sensible way. I am sort of clearing out the remnants of my little brush fire in the tack articles, but I will TRY to give this a good look see over the next couple of days. Montanabw (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
GA pre-pre-review...
I don't claim to have caught every bit of awkward prose. I've stared at this article too much to be able to do that! Honestly, if we could find out more about foreign breeding statistics and stuff, we're getting close to FA on this. Or at least closer. I'm going to set up archiving on this page too, it's starting to get a bit long. Anyone object to MizaBot archiving it automatically, say after 30 days? Ealdgyth | Talk 00:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I marked off above the ones that I've completed. I expanded the lead some, but it still needs more work. Some tweaking is still in order in the history summary I think, it feels off to me but I can't get it to read right. I don't know, maybe you'll have better luck! Dana boomer ( talk) 13:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Gwinva says she'll look it over after things calm down within the next two weeks. Otherwise, it's looking pretty good. I'll try to do a copyedit pass this weekend. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I pulled out the last redlinks, they need articles, but I'm not going to get to them any time soon. No sense holding the redlink for them. We're looking good on size, 43K of readable prose. A bit higher than most FA's, but not by much. Readablity tests shows nothing horrid. Let Gwinva look it over again and we'll see what happens. Dana's done great work here! Now to work on Horse.... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Done! Put it up as a joint nom. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of April 18, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:
For readability, please place any comments or questions pertaining to the hold below rather than within the body of the review. Thank you!
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Van Tucky 03:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
We probably should move the controversies, etc. into the main text, if we're going to go to FAC. FAC prefers that the sections not be separate, and we'll just run into this issue again at FAC. I added a backup print ref for the terminology section, just to keep thinks working (I really dislike googlebooks refs, as they aren't always accessable to all folks). What else needs to be dealt with besides the controversies? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as the "Controversies" section goes, would we solve much of the problem by just naming it "Health Issues" or something similar? It is pretty much all about the health and breakdowns stuff, which isn't so much a "controversy" like, say, abortion is a controversy, it's more an ongoing debate over how bad the problem is, why it occurs and what to do about it. Montanabw (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I don't mean to break the flow of your work, but is this a good time for me to pass the article? I prefer to have a semi-stable version to pass (i.e. one that isn't waiting for the group to agree on). Thanks, Van Tucky 17:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I've passed the article as GA class. Thanks very much for your hard work and your patience. Congratulations, and I look forward to seeing this at FAC. Best regards, Van Tucky 02:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:Good article usage is a survey of the language and style of Wikipedia editors in articles being reviewed for Good article nomination. It will help make the experience of writing Good Articles as non-threatening and satisfying as possible if all the participating editors would take a moment to answer a few questions for us, in this section please. The survey will end on April 30.
At any point during this review, let us know if we recommend any edits, including markup, punctuation and language, that you feel don't fit with your writing style. Thanks for your time. - Dan
Dank55 (
talk)(
mistakes)
04:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Feedback: No, amount provided seems OK, particularly as "sparkling prose" is kind of a fuzzy concept. Write a lot outside wikipedia: Yes, but I try to keep my profession anonymous on wiki and thus details here would disclose it, but I do write a considerable amount of essentially technical, non-fiction (though considerably creativity is often required - grin) work requiring extensive citation to authority as part of my profession. Unrelated to my day job, I have also published a few articles on horse-related topics in assorted regional horse magazines and in one nationally-distributed periodical. Influences within wiki: Not really, though the Military History WikiProject members raked me over the coals pretty good when I started and helped make me what I am today.
What doesn't fit with my writing style: Sometimes the feedback on articles is a little bit too "term paper 101" in terms of mechanistic insistence on a footnote for every paragraph, (when some paragraphs may need one every sentence and at other times the same source may be used for an entire subsection). The concept that the lead needs to mechanically touch on each article section as opposed to being a catchy summary to draw in the reader is also a bit too "SAT essay" for my tastes. But those are mostly just whines.
Hope this helps. Montanabw (talk) 22:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I know I am late to the party, but it seems that notes do have their place. While I agree that this place is not in the references section, there is a relatively simple way to separate the two. I guess the relevant questions here are a) how important are the notes for this article, and b) can a GA article have a notes section separate from a references section...
Here's a little example:
Thoroughbreds are fast. [1] Thoroughbreds are pretty. a Actively racing thoroughbreds have high density cannon bones. [2]
Notes
[a] Getwood thinks so
References
My point is not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, especially since this problem seems to already be resolved, and the article is approaching GA status... But, I thought it was at least worth bringing up. Thanks, Getwood ( talk) 01:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I also was unaware you can do that. It’s indeed a good way to handle it.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 09:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've begun to switch over the references from magazines and newspapers to the new format. I've only done a few, because I'm not completely sure if I'm doing them right *grin*. Ealdgyth, could you check out refs 22-26 and see if this is what you were thinking of? I'm trying to copy what you did with the Easy Jet article, but I'm not totally sure I'm getting it :) Please let me know, and I'll finish up the rest of them... Thanks! Dana boomer ( talk) 20:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I will be gone until Sunday evening, and unable to access the internet during that time. I have been a minor contributor to this page, and trust the judgement of the major editors Ealdgyth, Dana boomer and Montanabw. The edited version of the Health section is viewable at User:Getwood/Sandbox/Thoroughbred. At the top of the page, edits are viewable. At the bottom of the page is a clean version without strikeouts, etc. I will be happy with whatever the group comes up with (as long as the fragile bones thing stays gone... See Wolff's law for explanation of bone modeling in response to load). Thanks, and a great weekend to all. Getwood ( talk) 15:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the next step is probably a peer review. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and list it in the morning, it usually runs for two weeks or so. I'm going to be out of town until the 11th or so. I'll have internet intermittantly, just no library of books, so that'll limit some of my usefulness. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
It's up at FAC now. It usually takes a bit of time before the feeding frenzy starts. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Did some fast research on TB prices, here are links and my summary. Not sure where or if this needs to go into the article, but for what it's worth:
Hope this is a start. I kind of wonder if the price thing has a good place to be worked in and if it would be a PITA to maintain, as data could get dated so fast? Montanabw (talk) 21:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I heard that more injuries happen in the US because of the type of tracks the horses run on. i don't have a reliable source Elie ( talk) 23:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I just came over to say support after all that and you'd already got your gong. Well done. Fainites barley 19:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for information on avg length and wgt for adult thoroughbreds. I was wonder if anybody else thinks this info is interesting and/or important and should be included? (Sorry but I am still looking for accurate data so I can't be any help - but maybe the contrib's to the article know what/where to look.) Thanks
MajorDill ( talk) 19:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think anyone bothers to measure the length of horses, even chest to tail (for buying blankets) people have to get out a tape...and it's really rather impossible to measure neck to tail because of how much mobility is in a horse's neck... as for weight, we have thought about adding that, but the problem is finding a good enough quality source that had any kind of scientifically verifiable averages. We looked at the question when the article went up for FA status and couldn't find good enough stats. For your own information, I can say that many TB's will probably weigh in between 1,000 and 1,200 lbs, but that's a real rough average, and doesn't reflect more than the rough average weight for a well-conditioned horse of around 16 hands...a fat 17 hand retiree could easily be heavier! Montanabw (talk) 06:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I have, once again, corrected the conversion from hands high to centimeters since the numbers given were totally wrong. I hope that this time user:Montanabw will keep his hands off the changes. Or better still fix the converter since it seems like the same f* up conversion has been used for all horse breeds on Wikipedia... Allan Akbar ( talk) 20:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The various colour terms reverted here [1] are, I'm pretty sure, known in America only. If they are restored this point should be made clear. Johnbod ( talk) 09:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Thoroughreds are amazingly fast horses, they are capable of going up to 45 mph. They have long legs so they are also know for jumping but not as much as they are for racing. If you are looking for a jumper or a racer go straight to one of these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.194.194.43 ( talk) 05:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
diff: Dana boomer reverted with the stated reason of "Reverting edits to sources that removed some and messed up formatting on others." I'd like to know which sources were removed and how you think that my changes to citation templates messed up the formatting? What is the benefit of separating the citations to abstracts and full articles? What's the benefit of having "Who's Your Momma II" use the wrong URL? What's the benefit of having three references repeat the citation to Hill et al. 2002 instead of listing it separately like I did? — Chris Capoccia T⁄ C 15:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Is it 'Thoroughbred' or should it be 'thoroughbred'? Why the capital T? -- SGBailey ( talk) 07:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I found the table below to be quite garish and to interfere with the flow of the article. The data is interesting, a lot of work went into the creation of the table, and it well may be suitable for a separate article on the value of Thoroughbreds, so am parking it here rather than removing it. If consensus is to restore it, I will go along with the majority, but I feel it constitutes a WP:UNDUE problem when the Thoroughbred is far more than just an expensive racehorse. I also found that it visually interfered with the flow of the article as well. Nothing at all personal, I just don't think it fits with this general, overview article. Montanabw (talk) 00:44, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record: policy and courtesy, especially to those who actually create value here, is to leave the non-offensive Wikipedia-compliant table in the article pending the results of a discussion. I don't care where it goes, so long as it is properly referenced for easy location as it is in fact essential information on the Project subject that is constantly referred to in Thoroughbred racing publications everywhere. Handicapper ( talk) 11:30, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
My 2008 Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac gives the above list (minus Green Monkey - why they don't have that I do not know, as the bloodhorse link is more than solid enough of a RS) with their subsequent race record, if that information is desired, it could be added. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
P.S. - If you are so inclined, input here would also be appreciated. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing#New Category discussion
I haven't checked out the above link, but I think an entire separate article on the value of Thoroughbreds would actually be really interesting, worth writing, obviously would quickly get to be pretty substantial (comparing prices in various nations or historical trends, etc...) and we could easily link to it from here with a "main" link from the "value" subsection. Montanabw (talk) 03:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just noting that I added some info on the low end of the TB world to the valuation section, noting Ferdinand being sold for slaughter (hey and he was a grandson of Northern Dancer). And I tossed all the trivia on Northern Dancer moved to valuation article), other than the record stud fee, which I thought was quite relevant and fit in with the other stud fee info. I think we want to avoid getting into too much trivia, particularly focused on one horse or one nation (else we lose FA status and this article will start to resemble horse racing.) If we want a good sob story on a cheap TB with a happier ending, here's onefrom today where an injured TB was sold for $50 to an illegal slaughter facility in Florida, but rescued. I don't really know how far we want to go into this whole thing, but figuring out what horses are worth is definitely a whole separate topic, and IMHO, this article just needs a general overview of the concept that "some Thoroughbreds can be very expensive." I don't know if there exist any stats on what a good, well-trained OTTB sold as a show hunter is worth, but it would be interesting. I just am concerned about going completely into statistics and horse racing trivia. Montanabw (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
....does not show the horse very well. If you are going to describe a thoroughbred (or any breeed for that matter) you need a leed pic that shows the characteristics to best advantage. This pic would be my first choice. Amandajm ( talk) 06:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Do note that the link [4] responds with a "HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found" header and was automatically marked as a {{ Dead link}} because of this. This is an error on the website's part. The link was added into bot's exceptions list. — HELLKNOWZ ▎ TALK 16:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Found very interesting articles on mtDNA in TB mares. Maybe here or in the related articles on breeding and bloodlines some of this material could perhaps be added. Montanabw (talk) 05:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC) [5] and [6]
This claim Racing has been proven to have a higher fatality rate than all other legal human and animal sports appeared in the lead until I have just removed it, and is in the blurb due to go up on Main Page tomorrow. There is no substantiation of the claim/accusation in the article, nor is it clear whose mortality is being described: equine, human, all animals? If no clarification and verification is forthcoming, it really should be removed from the Main Page material. Kevin McE ( talk) 07:25, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Ah, found it!! Knew I wasn't going crazy. You can see the sourced statement in the Health issues section of this version. It looks like it was sourced to a Chicago Sports Review article that then had its link go dead - I'm assuming we removed it because of this, although I don't really remember. However, I still can't find a good link for that article, so the factoid is going to have to stay out of the article until/if someone finds a new source. Dana boomer ( talk) 21:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Main page? Joys. I'm on the road ... heh! Lucky you two... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
...and who wrote the summary? The way they did it combines sentences to say "horse" too many times in the very first line. It can't be edited so who can fix this before it hits the main page? Montanabw (talk) 21:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
What is the evidence that the foundation stallions were Arabs? One was not even called 'arab'. Suggest that this claim should not be perpetuated until and unless supported by proper references and evidence. It is widely suggested, including in wikipedia itself, that the Byerley and the Darley were in fact Akhal-Teke or Turkmenian horses. Iconographic evidence supports this theory. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 11:04, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm... had the idea that unreferenced and unsupported assertions were to be removed, aggressively; is this a misprision? I'm perplexed as to why 'Arabian' has been reinserted in the absence of any reference that confirms that the three foundation stallions were in fact Arabs; this is one of those 'everybody knows that...' arte-facts, unsupported and patently contradicted by the iconographic and linguistic evidence. Please note that the Byerley Turk was called 'the Byerley Turk'. Agree that the varied origin of mares is well covered (excuse pun!). See the Turkoman article, or the Akhal-Teke article, or almost any one of the outside links given by it, for support of my 'widely disputed' assertion. Suggested wording: '... native mares were crossbred with imported Oriental stallions.' (or, if preferred, '... eastern stallions.', as in Hartley-Edwards, E. The Encyclopedia of the Horse, DK, London, 1994, p118). The properly referenced discussion of whether the three foundation sires were in fact of Akhal-Teke, Arabian, Turkoman or indeed some other origin belongs in the body of the article, where it is currently entirely lacking, and will need to be written by someone a very great deal more expert than myself. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 15:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Please read this for clarification: http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/foundation-turks.htm Jeremy James did a lot of research on this topic. I would clearly change the text to 'Turkoman', but I will let you do this. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.181.130 ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
The Byerley Turk by Jeremy James? Came out 8–10 years ago? I think it's supposed to be fictional. Agree about not arguing from silence, it's no proof of anything; but it is something that should cause us to doubt certainty. There's really a lot of silence on the subject, too, in apparently relatively reputable places such as
this. Anyone who wants to go totally insane over this should read
this page and dozens more like it by the same guy, all of which prove that every single stallion was in fact not the one you thought he was (the Byerley was the Lister, The Darley was Curwen's Bay Barb, etc. (or was it the other way round?)).
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
17:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Following the latest edit by User:Montanabw on 11 April 2011 (which I didn't notice yesterday), this article again presents the non-neutral view that the three foundation sires were all Arabs. I have therefore put a POV tag on the article, and marked as 'dubious' the two occurrences of the word 'Arabian' that promote this non-neutral view. The second of these is apparently an outright error, as it appears to assert that all the 200-plus oriental stallions that contributed to the Thoroughbred were Arabs. My reasoning:
I wanted to insert 'Arabian' in this sentence, so looked at the reference,
28. That page does not make the statement in the sentence, nor does it include the word 'Turk'; it is an interesting discussion of erroneous mare registrations discovered by haplotype divergence. Some error here, perhaps?
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
12:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The article includes this sentence: "It was then that handicapping, a system of adding weight to attempt to equalize a horse's chances of winning as well as improved training procedures, began to be used." Does anyone have any idea what it is supposed to mean? I know I don't. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 11:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I was looking across Wikipedia to see if there was an article on horse names, but all I found was a stub on Ethiopian kings. I would appreciate if someone could add a section to this or another appropriate article. There must be some theories about why horse names are so absurd, and I am curious to know about the "evolution" and history of horse names. Where horses a hundred years ago named "Fruit O'Rooney", "Mystical Diva", "Lots Of Pride" etc.? Dr bab ( talk) 09:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)