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Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
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The article claims that Saborids received their liens from HRE. This is absurd, and when the background is ommitted this constitutes a major falsification of history. Samborids were vassals of Poland for quite a long time, and For some time Pomorze was part of Polish senioral part. Szopen ( talk) 11:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed an interesting case; since it it the very takeover of Danzig/Gdańsk that led to the city's Germanization and this event marks the change of Gdansk to Danzig in our wiki nomenclature. Therefore should this article be named 'Teutonic takeover of Danzig' or Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk'? I think that since the city name before the takeover was Gdańsk, it would be logical to use the G version. We may also avoid this trouble by using a neutral name like Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the name proposed by Space Caded ( Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)) a reasonable compromise. For the event which marks the name shift to use both is quite reasonable.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Another double naming article would of course be the most recent version of History of Gdańsk (Danzig). Space Cadet ( talk) 18:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that per our naming conventions, double naming in titles is not good. Per discussion above, Gdańsk is more correct than Danzig, since if per Gdansk vote we agree that this year and this particular event marks the name change, it is obvious that the Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk (and changed its name to Danzig), and did not take over Danzig (as the name was not used until after they took it over). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my move from Teutonic Takeover of Gdańsk to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk, it was merely because the event does not seem to be known formally as the "Teutonic Takeover". Rather, the article is simply describing the takeover of the city by the Teutonic Knights. Whether Gdańsk or Danzig should be used is contentious; my move was simply to make "takeover" be lower-case. The Gdanzig vote indicates that "Danzig" should be used; my opinion is that the event should be described using whichever name reliable sources usually use for the time period in question. Olessi ( talk) 20:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Nope the vote is between 1308 and 1945 (btw it was ignored that the vote was against this actually). So only after 1308. Of course this is historical ignorance in favour of misleading readers as to actual date of Germanisation of the name. But false information on Wikipedia is not surprising.-- Molobo ( talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The Danzig vote ruled that from the foundation of the city to the Teutonic takeover in 1308 the city will be referred to as "Gdańsk". From that point up to the end of WW II (even for periods when the city was a part of Poland again 1466 - 1792) it will be referred to as "Danzig". The vote itself has only a date "1308" and that's the only base of Matthead's argumentation. Here we can't go by the letter, we have to go by the spirit and common sense. Teutonic Knights invaded GDAŃSK and from then on it is known as Danzig. What he proposes is like calling the city Danzig until January 1st 1946, while it returned to Poland already in March 1945. We have to use common sense on this one. The "Danceke" case, of course, is against the Gdańsk vote completely. Space Cadet ( talk) 14:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is Danzig our first, before Gdansk? It should be the opposite. Or without the Danzig part at all LordParsifal ( talk) 08:50, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No consensus to move. Cenarium Talk 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) → Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk — As was explained above by me and most recently summed up by Space Cadet, Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk and this led to the city's name change to Danzig for the next few centuries. They did not take over Danzig, just as Khrushchev did not change the name of Volgograd but of Stalingrad. The (in)famous Gdansk vote is not clear on this, but logic again dictates that the name Danzig should be used for all events after this takeover which was the catalyst for various namechanges (as the names were not changed before the takeover, but afterwards). Finally, double naming is not recommended (and by above logic, IF we wanted double naming, it should be Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (Danzig)).— Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Is there a more formal term used in literature for this event? Perhaps "Siege of Danzig (1308)" or something? I don't know how the current title could be tested against the sources accurately. Srnec ( talk) 04:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
A google search for "Teutonic takeover of Danzig -Wikipedia" yields 2,580 results, but a google search for "Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk -Wikipedia" yields only 579 results. Adding "-Wikipedia" to the search criteria removes any Wikipedia-related search results, meaning that Wikipedia content cannot skew the results. Hope this helps! Wilhelm meis ( talk) 06:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This article should be on the historical issue and not a base for pushing agendas not related to the event. An even better name would be takeover of the Danzig fortress, as the conflict was about the fort and not so much about the town... Skäpperöd ( talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
OK Piotrus, I'll be sure to include links in future discussions. For now, I might point out that while your search for Gdańsk 1308 yielded 687 results, my equivalent search for Danzig 1308 yielded 697 results, again suggesting that Danzig wins by a narrow margin. My point is simply that Gdańsk is not clearly the common name. These search results are what I would classify as inconclusive, even if one completely disregards my initial results [5] [6]. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 04:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Google Book scans given here have not indicated to me a definitive preference one way or another. In my personal experience, most of the books I have read have used Danzig, but I can understand Piotrus' rationale. In the absence of further evidence, I am thus indifferent to whether Gdańsk or Danzig is used; I highly doubt either was the "official" name of the city seven hundred years ago. If there is a desire to only have a single name in the title, Tumult of Thorn (Toruń) should be moved back to Tumult of Thorn accordingly. Olessi ( talk) 20:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1100s and was granted as lien from the empire directly since 1181. In the 1200s several times the local rulers of the Pomeranian Samboriben received the ducal Herzog titles from the empire, thereby the lien to govern the land, and the Margraves of Brandenburg were overlords over Pomerania and Pomerelia.
In the 1220s the German-Law city named Danceke was founded under the government of a Pomeranian Herzog/duke, a part of the HRE. His seal identifies him as Zwantepolc de Danceke and he ruled from 1220-1266. In 1263 the burghers of Danzig had their status verified by requesting a copy of the Lübeck Law.
It was Dantzig, a German-Law city with German-language burghers, which was in 1308 taken over by the Teutonic Order and Pomerelia became part of Prussia, governed by the T.O. The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.
Only in 1945 were the inhabitants drastically changed to foreigners.
Wikipedia constantly shows entries such as by Molobo and Piotrus (and by many more people) above.
Wikipedia may indefinately continue pretending, that all what is Poland since 1945, "has always been Poland" (or rather 'if it was conquered by Poland a 1000 - thousand years ago, it should again be conquered by Poland).
But that does not change the facts of history as they really happened. It is only unfortunate, that Wikipedia contains and mirrors so much of this type of lopsidedness. An Observer 07.06. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.69.190 ( talk) 17:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.' Throughout its long history Gdańsk faced various periods of rule from different states before 1945,
* 997-1308: as part of Poland * 1308-1466: as part of territory of Teutonic Order * 1466-1793: as part of Poland * 1793-1805: as part of Prussia * 1807-1814: as free city * 1815-1871: as part of Prussia * 1871-1918: Imperial Germany * 1918-1939: as a free city * 1939-1945: Nazi Germany
Altogether combining the number of years, the city was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it was given back to Poland in 1945.
Regards,
-- Molobo ( talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Molobo, Danzig is a Prussian city for 700 years now, whether you deny it or not. It simply does not matter if it was under the rule of some Polish state or some German state. And the population of Danzig spoke all the time mostly German, not Polish. Nationalism was irrelevant until the 19th century. Der Eberswalder ( talk) 18:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR ( talk) 01:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
A common name should be settled on and the double-naming eliminated. This article has been the victim of move warring and the current double-name is the result of compromise. Since the recent request to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdansk was strongly opposed, there may be a consensus settling around Teutonic takeover of Danzig. This name is also supported by the Danzig/Gdansk Vote, which indicates the use of Danzig in naming articles concerning the period 1308-1945, and the common name of the city before 1308 has been heavily disputed, with several different versions of the name (Danceke, Dantzig, etc.) appearing in historical sources. Therefore, this article should be restored to its original title of Teutonic takeover of Danzig. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 01:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
History of Danzig, Pomerelia, Prussia
Too many people lack knowledge of the history of Danzig and Pomerelia and are overwhelmed by farefetched Polish claims, thus here a summary:
Early history of territory later called Pomerelia
The territory is situated entirely in the eastern part of what Greek and Roman historians called " Magna Germania". East Germanic people were recorded by Jordanes in Gothiscandza (in territory of later Danzig and further south to later Kujavia and Masovia). The territory began to be called Pomerania in the 11th century, Pomerelia, along with the rest of Pomerania,because by then it was largely inhabited by West Slavic tribes, who overlapped with the Prussians, who used to live further west of Danzig and were recorded in Gedanum Danzig area in 997 AD, when St. Adalbert was sent by Boleslaw I, who tried to conquer them by conversion.
Ever since the first appearance of the Polanes and their dukes Mieszko I and Boleslaw I in the 10th century, the Pomeranian , Prussians, as well as all other neighboring people had to constantly fight off conquest attacks by the Polans, Poles. For a short time around 990 the Pomeranians were conquered by the Poles, who till just before 1300 were dukes, pledging allegiance to the empire.
Again in 1116/1121, Pomerania was conquered by Poland. While the Duchy of Pomerania regained independence quickly, Pomerelia remained within the Polish realm for a few years. In 1138, following the death of Duke Bolesław III, the dukes of Pomerelia gradually gained more power, evolving into dukes directly alligned to the emperors. The Samborides ruling Pomerelia ruled the duchy until 1294. Before 1227, they were short-term vassals of Poland and Denmark. The most famous dukes were Mestwin I (1207–1220), Swantopolk II (1215–1266), and Mestwin II (1271–1294).
Christianity was introduced by Bolesław III Wrymouth of Poland, while he tried to gain Pomerelia. Second attempt by Otto von Bamberg and emperor Lothar succeeded in bringing christianity. Since 1181 Pomerania was a direct part of the Holy Roman Empire (until 1806). It was under Danish suzerainty from 1210-1227, after which it became independent again.
Pomerelia as a part of Prussia, ruled by the Teutonic Knights as monastic state
After the death of duke Mestwin II of Pomerania in 1294, his co-ruler Przemysł II of Poland claimed Pomerelia basing it on the treaty made at Langenfort , later Kempen ( Treaty of Kępno) from 1282, in which Mestwin declared Przemysł II his sole successor. Yet, the Brandenburg margraves also held claims based on the Treaty of Arnswalde of 1269. Przemysl was soon succeeded by Wenzel II, king of Bohemia (an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire). That agreement was made between Romish German King Albrecht I (Albert I) of the Holy Roman Empire and King Wenzel of Bohemia, who received the territories of Greater Poland and Pomerelia into his possession and accepted soverainty over it by HRE King Albert I. In the year 1300 at Mainz Wenzel or Wenceslas II received the Polish crown from German king Albert [7].
Upon the deaths of Wenceslas II and III and with them the extinction of the House of Przemysl the Margraviate of Brandenburg staked their claim of the territory in 1308, leading Władysław I the Elbow-high to request assistance from the Teutonic Knights, which evicted the Brandenburgers. After Władysław refused to pay the substantial fee he owed to the Teutonic Knights, the province was annexed and incorporated into the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights in 1309 ( Teutonic takeover of Danzig). An Observer 24 July 2008
From the survey above:
Discussion of the proposal to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk is closed. No, a particular poll is closed. There's nothing stopping us revisiting the question, as everyone involved in any discussion regarding the name of the city in question should be painfully aware.
This discussion is about moving to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. True.
As you point out, the result of the vote was to refer to the city as Gdańsk before 1308 and Danzig after 1308, but that leaves this event as something of a gray area. Only if you ignore English grammar. When something is subject to a takeover, the thing taken over is the thing previous to the takeover.
Since the event is more commonly known as the "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" (as previously discussed on this page), the name Danzig should apply beginning with this event. The logic is good, but as far as I can see the previous discussion didn't reach a consensus supporting the premises despite your best efforts. It's a fascinating suggestion; It might for example be explained if most of the people who use this term aren't native English speakers (and WP:NC doesn't specify anywhere that we give preference to usage of native English speakers) so the rules of grammar are, shall we say, relaxed a little. Hmmm. Andrewa ( talk) 18:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand, I think the assumption that grammar is absolutely logical is flawed. I don't think this is a case where the logic of a naming argument can rest on a grammar-logic extrapolation such as the one you have presented. If the city was sufficiently well-known as "X" since the takeover, and was known as "Y" before (but also known as "X" and "Z" during that time), then it may not be so simple as to say "Y" was taken over and "X" is inappropriate. Here is an example. KFC has recently been rebranded as Kentucky Fried Chicken (the original name of the company), by its parent company Yum! Brands. Once the new marketing campaign is launched, it may well be that "KFC" will once again be commonly called "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (assuming this outcome for the sake of argument). Then it would not be grammatically incorrect to say "Kentucky Fried Chicken was acquired by Yum! Brands in 2002," even though it would be logically incorrect since the company was known as "KFC" from 1991-2007. Grammar is logical only to a certain point. In Shakespeare's day, double negatives and even triple negatives were often used for emphasis, and it has only been recently that the mathematical logic of self-canceling double negatives has been applied to the English language. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 00:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Note: [8]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"Pomeranian rebellion" is a term used by Davies and others for the beginning of the events, with the " Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)" describing the outcome of the historic events, as well as triggering an article naming conflict, which will hardly even be settled as long as the city's names are included. Besides, the whole area of Pomerelia, the eastern extension of Pomerania, was affected. Thus, I suggest a move to " Pomeranian rebellion of 1308" as there were earlier events in Pomerania proper. -- Matthead Discuß 14:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I made a minor update. Restored the elegant info and removed overblown claims of he massacre influence on WW2. Also added some references and info. Removed a copyvio of text inserted hidden in the article for unknown reasons. Still the artiicle is in terrible shape and full of undue and POV sections-- Molobo ( talk) 18:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I just made an edit to the lead. Please note that I was merely editing to get the lead sentence formally in line with the MOS, removing the tautological re-stating of the decriptive page title, and leaving the content exactly as it was. On looking further into the article, I now notice that the existing wording is probably highly contentious. Please don't take my edit as endorsing the wording and content as it stands and feel free to change. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I am confirming this as B-class for WP:POLAND, but there are some missing refs that will need to be added for a GA class and higher levels. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Teutonic takeover of Danzig(Gdańsk) gives 0 results besides wikipedia mirrors. It seems that the term massacre is the proper term for the event.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted Skapperod's recent edits. There were some very serious POV problems with these, specifically:
In particular in regard to the last one: this was a problem even before. The article is written in a way which tries very hard to suggest that since "10,000 people were not massacred" hence "no massacre took place" (aside from some stupid Polish/Pomerelian knights that were just hanging around for no reason). Actually, pretty much all sources agree that
However, the article tries to give the impression that since #1 is not exactly true that means that #2 cannot be true. But that's an obvious non-sequitur - that conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, and hence, no reliable source says that. Since no reliable source says that what is being resorted to here is just various rhetorical tricks meant to give that impression.
The article needs fixin', not further even worse povin'. VolunteerMarek 01:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Lemkin should be used as a source here. His cited work is from 1944, an is about "Axis rule in occupied Europe." The reference (w/o pg. number) is used as an example of the view that the inhabitants of Gdanzig had been Polish, however, this view is also represented by the more recent reference to Kuczynski (1987). I would also be careful regarding the latter since it was published under the Communist regime, but it is certainly better than a WWII source. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
If there are "a lot of sources" for the inhabitants of Gdanzig being Polish by 1308, why don't just replace the wartime 1944 Lemkin essay by a recently published source? And Neumeyer has nothing to do with this. Furthermore, using Lemkin as a source for the statement that the inhabitants were Polish is not even correct, since Lemkin said in 1944 that the knights 'massacred its Polish population' and did not elaborate on whether the population was exclusively Polish or not. It could just as well mean a minority population, or it could just be some WW2 essay. Skäpperöd ( talk) 18:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Quote Volunteer Marek: The insertion of dubious and certainly not reliable material based on the work of Heinz Neumeyer, who is not a reliable source. What is particularly problematic is that I'm sure Skapperod is aware of this author's background."
Of course I am aware of Neumeyer's background. He is a representative of the "old school" Danzig alumni, and some of his views have been heavily criticized. Personally, I share many of the critics' views.
On the other hand, Neumeyer is a much-cited historian and author of a recent work which includes coverage of the subject of this article. Since Hans Georg Siegler, another author whose works on Danzig are often cited has published a similar account of the take-over, Neumeyer's views of this particular event do not stand isolated.
Thus, as much as I would be opposed to representing Neumeyer's version as "the sole truth," I think it is alright to include it, attributed, as one of the many differing views of what happened which were recently published. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Neumeyer is not a suitable source, nor are any sources based on Ostforschung or connections to Nazi ideology-which has been explained to you numerous times when you tried to introduce such sources( for example Reich's propaganda publication from 1934 [9]) legitimatizing their authors as reliable.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 17:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh for freakin' sake, this is exactly what I'm talking about [10]. Your edit summary says restore attribution of Śliwiński's views to Śliwiński, restore views of William Urban and Udo Arnold (both renowned experts on Teutonic Knights issues), Halina Wątróbska (Gdansk university), Frank Fischer ( Udo Arnold (historian, Frank Fischer
Now, including these authors might be just fine. But that's not all your edit does. Once again, what you actually do is
So your edit summary that you're just "restoring" some authors is highly misleading and patently false (to put it politely). Again, you are making unwarranted changes and POV pushing like crazy under the guise of "adding sources". This is disruptive and the edit summary is dishonest. VolunteerMarek 18:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
"Modern sources are divided - are they not?" Please do not engage in WP:SYNTH. We are here to document what reliable sources present, not research of editors. "Talking about POV - a 1944 source and a 1987 source, hmmm..." I see no POV at all in Lemkin the noted and distinguished scholar who in the wake of Nazi German attempt of extermination of several nations devised Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Do you wish to expand further your views about alledged POV he represented? The lead needs to be adapted too.right now it lacks alternative names of the event(btw current name is pure Wiki creation) that is "massacre of Gdańsk", "slaughter of Gdańsk" etc. Since all articles about historical events list their names including alternative ones, this needs to be corrected. re "massacre" - usage of this word is limited to some, mostly older and mostly Polish sources I already found three modern ones and English based that use the term. I am sure I will find more. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
"Gdansk massacre" and "Gdansk slaughter" have been introduced as alternative English names for the take-over. I dispute that. I agree that the killings have been referred to as "rzeź Gdańska" in many, primarily older Polish works (88 hits), but a translation of this term has not made it into English usage.
I thus prefer a wording that reflects that some Polish sources use "rzeź Gdańska" (Gdansk slaughter) when referring to the killings, as is already stated in the article, but I see no basis for inclusion of a sentence "The event is known as Gdańsk massacre or Gdańsk slaughter." Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
re VM: Your searches without quotation marks only return hits from books that have the words "Gdansk" and "massacre/slaughter" on one page, that does not at all mean that they use the terms "Gdańsk massacre" or "Gdańsk slaughter" which is only the case if you do a search with quotation marks.
Already the first hit is a very nice example of why a search w/o quotation marks is flawed. The result is Althoff: Die Deutschen und ihr Mittelalter, p. 160. It quotes a (hopefully fictional) dialogue between a Pole and a German. The Pole says that Danzig is only German because the order "during the take-over in 1308 slaughtered 10,000 Polish burghers of Danzig in a terrible massacre." The German answers: "This Tartar message stems from the 14th century and is part of the atrocity propaganda staged by Poland against the Teutonic Order, because it felt betrayed in its own interests in Danzig ..." The dialogue is in German. So it's probably a bad proof of "the event being known as Gdansk massacre."
The search string 1308+teutonic+danzig+OR+gdansk was provided by me to get a rough number of English sources mentioning the event (Teutonic was chosen to limit the returns to English-language hits). It was not meant to suggest an alternative title. Ton clarify:
Skäpperöd ( talk) 22:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Four sources are proof of common usage of that name? Please Molobo, that reasoning is as queer as a three dollar bill. -- 24.202.1.112 ( talk) 02:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems even Loew acknowledges that the event has become known as the "Danzig Bloodbath" (Danziger Blutbud), without adding any qualifying "national" adjectives to it. Basically it's hard to take this objection seriously. VolunteerMarek 20:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I searched for the quote given here [19]:: Offensichtlich hat der Orden im Falle Danzigs einen kalkulierten Akt des Terrors ausgeübt und die Stadt zerstören lassen, aber kein Blutbad verursacht. Die neuesten polnischen Arbeiten rechnen mit an die hundert Toten
This is the only result I found:
Werner Conze, Hartmut Boockmann "Offensichtlich hat der Orden im Falle Danzigs einen kalkulierten Akt des Terrors ausgeübt und die Stadt zerstören lassen, aber kein Blutbad verursacht. Die neuesten polnischen Arbeiten rechnen mit an die hundert Toten."
This book seems to be a reprint from an earlier edition published from 1991, which had to be written even earlier before its publication, as Conze died before 1998.
As to Conze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Conze
"With the Nazis taking power, Conze, together with Schieder and Rothfels, helped to institutionalize racial ethnic research in the Third Reich.[2] According to German historian Ingo Haar, "the Nazis made use of (this) racist scholarship, which lent itself gladly". He was awarded his Ph.D. in 1934. While working for German espionage, in 1936, Conze prepared a document which portrayed Poland as backward and in need of German order and which recommended the exclusion of Jews from the legal system as Conze considered them outside the law.[2] In further work issued in 1938 Conze continued in similar vein, blaming lack of industry in Belarus on "Jewish domination"[3] Between 1937 and 1940 in a series of articles Conze proposed "dejewification" of Eastern Europe, particularly Lithuania and Belarus.[4]
He joined the NSDAP in the late 1930s. Conze's Nazi Party membership number was 5,089,796.[5]
Conze's final book was written in 1986 in which he portrayed Germans as "cultivators" of "Slavonic East" which he described as "threatening German soil".
Obviously this author is not a reliable source on Polish history, and obviously the "newest research" claim shouldn't be presented as coming from 2002.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I am uncomfortable with the section header, as my name is mentioned in there along with all that Nazi stuff. I propose to reduce this overlong header to "Is Conze a co-author?", since this is the question asked here. The answer is: No, he is not, and that is extremely easy to verify by e.g. looking at the book in question. The overlong section header and all this Nazi stuff about Conze is creating unnecessary drama about a non-issue. Skäpperöd ( talk) 07:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Also this seems to be possibly from Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas, begründet von Werner Conze, hg. v . Hartmut Boockmann, so created by Conze and printed by Boockman.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I can verify that the book says the same We don't base Wiki on personal claims of editors. Anyway since you agree that even if the book wasn't authored by Conze(which remains uncertain), you do claim that it was influenced by his research. And Conze is notorious for his role in Nazi Germany's propaganda, advocated removal of Jews, claimed Poles are "degenerated" accused Polish peasants and their "petty peasant instincts" of revolting against "German order". -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Nowhere did I "claim that it was influenced by his research." If you still have trouble interpreting your books.google result, try a decent OPAC like RI or HBZ, or you use your google books result or a library to actually look at the book. Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
The links you gave confirm that this is a reprint from 1992, not "newest research". Why have you claimed it is "newest research from up to 1998"?. And of course if bears the name of the notorious Conze in it-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Newest quote entered into the text :"sich in einer nationalistischen polnischen Tradition nicht besonders überzeugend ausnimmt, weil es sich bei jenem Danzig, das der Orden 1308 zerstörte, ja um eine überwiegend von Deutschen bewohnte Stadt gehandelt hat" to claim that the town was primarily German was also found in the 1998 book which googlebooks gives former Nazi Conze as co-author. Since Conze had primarily worked under the Nazis in propaganda regarding Teutonic-Polish history this doesn't seem reliable. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 08:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC) It is also worth mentioning that Hans Georg Siegler who studied at Reichsuniversität Posen, is not a historian.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This text cited to Loew misrepresents the source: that there were 60 to 100 victims at the most (sic).
Rather, what Loew says is that older German historiography (like the Nazi historian Erich Keyser - at this point Loew doesn't mention him explicitly, but does so later on in the text) implied that "there were 60 to victims at the most". He does not say himself that there were 60 to 100 victims at the most, NOR that modern Polish and German historians agree with this older number. In fact, in the next sentence he mentions Blazynski who explicitly states that the event was indeed a "bloodbath".
So again, there really is no disagreement among modern historians - Polish, German, English, Fijian - that a massacre in fact took place. Yes, older German historiography from before and during WWII, often carried out by Nazi historians - did try to pretend that a massacre didn't happen. But those views are WP:FRINGE and I see no reason for Wikipedia to push them.
Please stop monkeying around with sources. VolunteerMarek 21:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
What in the world is "circumstantial evidence"? This isn't a court of law, it's history. ALL evidence is "circumstantial", unless you got yourself a time machine. I'm guessing that in this case "circumstantial evidence" is just a weasely way of saying "evidence I don't like". VolunteerMarek 06:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm also not really seeing the "after world war II many Polish historians agreed", though here the translators really mangle the grammar so it's hard to say. However, since it's easy enough to find plenty of post-WWII Polish historians who most certainly did not agree with pre- and during WWII Nazi historiography on this subject, I find the claim dubious. VolunteerMarek 07:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits by Skapperod removed large parts of description that clearly showed that 16 number was only small part of mass murdered citizens
This is extremely disruptive since the source used by Skapperod actually clearly writes about massacre, large numbers of dead and that 16 murdered were only a part of the victims. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Based on Polish research up to 1998 Boockmann gives a number close to a hundred dead There is nothing about Polish research up to 1998 in Boockmann's source as far as I see. This seems especially strange since he died in 1998 and the book used is a reprint from 1992. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
To keep its B-class status, there are several citation needed tags that need to be addressed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 15:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Isn't the Teutonic "capture" or "conquest" of... more appropriate? VєсrumЬа ► TALK 18:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Most sources don't use the title Wikipedia uses, but rather the term Gdansk slaughter or massacre. I believe this should be changed to reflect scholarly view.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:28, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
In this revert [22] undid all my recent edits to the article, including copy editing. The justification for the revert was given as "restore sourced content". There's couple problems with that:
That's just for starters. There's also other problems with the text. For now I'm restoring my edits, including the copy edits and fixes of spelling and lettering. Please do not revert without discussion and substantiating any reasons for why this stuff belongs in the article. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 18:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
These "cherry picked quotations" were provided because YOU asked for them!! Talk:Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)#Sources; [23] [24] The quotations are not part of the main text but part of the ref section to verify the statements (thus, not "thrown at the reader", hardly anybody will read the complete ref section in German). To remove whole paragraphs (and not just the quotes) because these quotations are allegedly too lengthy is completely absurd, especially because these quotations exist only because of you.
However, maybe we should go into detail:
1. "According to Hartmut Boockmann, the town was primarily inhabited by Germans."
2. "Rüdiger, abbott of Oliva, entered the town in the morning, shrove some of the doomed knights and transferred 16 bodies to his abbey where they were buried near St Jacob's church"
3. "According to William Urban, the Teutonic Knights had repelled the Brandenburgers by September 1308, were welcomed by the city's burghers and seized the authority over the city for themselves. They refused to return the city to Lokietek's officials before being paid for their service by the Polish king, which in turn led to a revolt of the townspeople against the order's rule in November 1308. The order crushed the revolt, killing mostly German artisans and merchants, and remained in charge of the city."
4. "Rüdiger, abbott of Oliva, entered the town in the morning, shrove some of the doomed knights and transferred 16 bodies to his abbey where they were buried near St Jacob's church."
5. "According to William Urban, the Teutonic Knights had repelled the Brandenburgers by September 1308, were welcomed by the city's burghers and seized the authority over the city for themselves. They refused to return the city to Lokietek's officials before being paid for their service by the Polish king, which in turn led to a revolt of the townspeople against the order's rule in November 1308. The order crushed the revolt, killing mostly German artisans and merchants, and remained in charge of the city."
6. " Frank Fischer says that half of the castle and "generous reparations of all incurring costs of war" was promised to the Teutonic knights in return for aiding Bogusza's men, who were running out of supplies. When Schwarzburg's forces had entered the castle, the Brandenburgers lost confidence in capturing it and left. After tensions between Bogusza's men and the Teutonic knights about the outstanding payment arose, Plotzke arrived with another force of 4,000 knights in mid-November, whereupon the population of Gdańsk opened the gates and handed over Bogusza as well as his men and supporters of the Swienca family, who were executed on the Long Market. Since Plotzke feared that the force he intended to leave in town was too small to prevent it from being captured and manned by an opponent in the future, making it difficult to re-capture, he ordered the population to demolish the city walls and part of the city's build-up area"
7. "The massacre charge played a minor role in this inquisition and of the twelve surviving one-sided testimonies, none of them made by eyewitnesses, eight were negative responses and four were hearsay evidence not going into detail."
8. "According to William Urban, the "testimony has been used by Polish historians to bolster a patriotically tinged understanding of the era."
9. " Hartmut Boockmann asserts that 10,000 is a "typical medieval number, abundantly used by contemporary chroniclers, meaning 'very much'". He states that the original figure seems far too high compared to an overall population of Pomerelia which he estimates at 130,000. Based on Polish research, Boockmann gives a number close to a hundred dead, and says that the order "carried out a calculated act of terror and had the town destroyed, but did not cause a bloodbath."
10. "According to Loew (2011), the monument is "a typical expression of a time, when Polish national historical narratives, cultivated since the 19th century, about uprisings and lasting martyrdom, defiant pride and German-Polish enmity, met with the experiences of the war, official anti-fascism and the constant need to legitimate the possession of the formerly German eastern and now Polish Western territories.""
I think Marek already explained in detail why this information has no place here, there is no need to go in circles. As to Boockmanns and Nazi Conze's book based on Nazi Germany's publications by Nazis like Schieder and Rode from 1941 and 1944, you know exactly well that Nazis and publications published under Nazi Germany(which the book is based on) are not acceptable, so please stop. This is not the first time when you have tried to introduce such publications before in Wikipedia and you have been advised not to do so.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 09:20, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I've already provided the rationales for this above (btw, you're repeating yourself). The info involves cherry picked quotes, undue material, sources which are sketchy at best and obvious attempts at POV pushing. If you want to we can try the DR board to resolve this. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC) ...and below. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Currently the text in the article states: "whereupon the population of Gdańsk opened the gates and handed over Bogusza as well as his men and supporters of the Swienca family, who were executed on the Long Market".
The quote from the source given in support of this is "Die Bürger lenkten ein und ließen die Stadttore öffnen. Bogussa und seine Anhänger wurden an den Orden ausgeliefert und auf Geheiß des Landmeisters auf dem Langen Markt als Verräter hingerichtet, ein ähnliches Los ereilte die Parteigänger der Swenzonen."
However, pretty much every other source I'm aware of, including the testimonies at the knights' trial, state that Bogusza left the town (or was expelled) - he wasn't executed. The massacre itself took place after his departure. In fact this source [25] even says the Knights gave him a letter to carry to Lokietek.
Who is Frank Fischer? This info seems dubious in light of other sources and casts doubts on the general credibility of the source. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I would also like to add that this book "Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas: Ostpreußen und Westpreußen" is actually co-written by Nazi Conze [27], and based on sources published in Nazi Germany for example a book written by notorious Nazi Gotthold Rhode in 1941(just one example). -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 07:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Regardless of Conze's role in the book, Fischer's account is completely at odds with other sources (and primary sources too) per my comment above. It appears to differ not just on issues of interpretation but also on questions of fact - the execution of Judge Bogusza which never took place. As such it should not be present in the article. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 15:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
As probably apparent from the discussion above large portions of reliably sourced content were removed by user:Volunteer Marek and user:MyMoloboaccount [28]. The current version ignores important modern scholarly views of the topic and pushes an uncritical outdated view, certainly not WP:NPOV. HerkusMonte ( talk) 17:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC) Nazis like Conze or Schieder aren't reliable, modern or neutral Herkus. You have been told that here many times by different people in various articles.Please stop. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
As above. The problems mentioned in 2012 and 2014 here on this talk page have not been thus far resolved. Should be moved. LordParsifal ( talk) 08:57, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309),. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 14#Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309), until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 20:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309),. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 5#Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309), until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Talk 20:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
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This page is affected by the
Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
The detailed vote results and the vote itself can be found on Talk:Gdansk/Vote. This vote has ended; please do not vote anymore. Comments and discussions can be added to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion anytime. This template {{ Gdansk-Vote-Notice}} can be added on the talk page of affected articles if necessary. |
The article claims that Saborids received their liens from HRE. This is absurd, and when the background is ommitted this constitutes a major falsification of history. Samborids were vassals of Poland for quite a long time, and For some time Pomorze was part of Polish senioral part. Szopen ( talk) 11:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed an interesting case; since it it the very takeover of Danzig/Gdańsk that led to the city's Germanization and this event marks the change of Gdansk to Danzig in our wiki nomenclature. Therefore should this article be named 'Teutonic takeover of Danzig' or Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk'? I think that since the city name before the takeover was Gdańsk, it would be logical to use the G version. We may also avoid this trouble by using a neutral name like Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the name proposed by Space Caded ( Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)) a reasonable compromise. For the event which marks the name shift to use both is quite reasonable.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Another double naming article would of course be the most recent version of History of Gdańsk (Danzig). Space Cadet ( talk) 18:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that per our naming conventions, double naming in titles is not good. Per discussion above, Gdańsk is more correct than Danzig, since if per Gdansk vote we agree that this year and this particular event marks the name change, it is obvious that the Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk (and changed its name to Danzig), and did not take over Danzig (as the name was not used until after they took it over). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my move from Teutonic Takeover of Gdańsk to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk, it was merely because the event does not seem to be known formally as the "Teutonic Takeover". Rather, the article is simply describing the takeover of the city by the Teutonic Knights. Whether Gdańsk or Danzig should be used is contentious; my move was simply to make "takeover" be lower-case. The Gdanzig vote indicates that "Danzig" should be used; my opinion is that the event should be described using whichever name reliable sources usually use for the time period in question. Olessi ( talk) 20:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Nope the vote is between 1308 and 1945 (btw it was ignored that the vote was against this actually). So only after 1308. Of course this is historical ignorance in favour of misleading readers as to actual date of Germanisation of the name. But false information on Wikipedia is not surprising.-- Molobo ( talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The Danzig vote ruled that from the foundation of the city to the Teutonic takeover in 1308 the city will be referred to as "Gdańsk". From that point up to the end of WW II (even for periods when the city was a part of Poland again 1466 - 1792) it will be referred to as "Danzig". The vote itself has only a date "1308" and that's the only base of Matthead's argumentation. Here we can't go by the letter, we have to go by the spirit and common sense. Teutonic Knights invaded GDAŃSK and from then on it is known as Danzig. What he proposes is like calling the city Danzig until January 1st 1946, while it returned to Poland already in March 1945. We have to use common sense on this one. The "Danceke" case, of course, is against the Gdańsk vote completely. Space Cadet ( talk) 14:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is Danzig our first, before Gdansk? It should be the opposite. Or without the Danzig part at all LordParsifal ( talk) 08:50, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No consensus to move. Cenarium Talk 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) → Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk — As was explained above by me and most recently summed up by Space Cadet, Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk and this led to the city's name change to Danzig for the next few centuries. They did not take over Danzig, just as Khrushchev did not change the name of Volgograd but of Stalingrad. The (in)famous Gdansk vote is not clear on this, but logic again dictates that the name Danzig should be used for all events after this takeover which was the catalyst for various namechanges (as the names were not changed before the takeover, but afterwards). Finally, double naming is not recommended (and by above logic, IF we wanted double naming, it should be Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (Danzig)).— Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Is there a more formal term used in literature for this event? Perhaps "Siege of Danzig (1308)" or something? I don't know how the current title could be tested against the sources accurately. Srnec ( talk) 04:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
A google search for "Teutonic takeover of Danzig -Wikipedia" yields 2,580 results, but a google search for "Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk -Wikipedia" yields only 579 results. Adding "-Wikipedia" to the search criteria removes any Wikipedia-related search results, meaning that Wikipedia content cannot skew the results. Hope this helps! Wilhelm meis ( talk) 06:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This article should be on the historical issue and not a base for pushing agendas not related to the event. An even better name would be takeover of the Danzig fortress, as the conflict was about the fort and not so much about the town... Skäpperöd ( talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
OK Piotrus, I'll be sure to include links in future discussions. For now, I might point out that while your search for Gdańsk 1308 yielded 687 results, my equivalent search for Danzig 1308 yielded 697 results, again suggesting that Danzig wins by a narrow margin. My point is simply that Gdańsk is not clearly the common name. These search results are what I would classify as inconclusive, even if one completely disregards my initial results [5] [6]. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 04:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Google Book scans given here have not indicated to me a definitive preference one way or another. In my personal experience, most of the books I have read have used Danzig, but I can understand Piotrus' rationale. In the absence of further evidence, I am thus indifferent to whether Gdańsk or Danzig is used; I highly doubt either was the "official" name of the city seven hundred years ago. If there is a desire to only have a single name in the title, Tumult of Thorn (Toruń) should be moved back to Tumult of Thorn accordingly. Olessi ( talk) 20:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1100s and was granted as lien from the empire directly since 1181. In the 1200s several times the local rulers of the Pomeranian Samboriben received the ducal Herzog titles from the empire, thereby the lien to govern the land, and the Margraves of Brandenburg were overlords over Pomerania and Pomerelia.
In the 1220s the German-Law city named Danceke was founded under the government of a Pomeranian Herzog/duke, a part of the HRE. His seal identifies him as Zwantepolc de Danceke and he ruled from 1220-1266. In 1263 the burghers of Danzig had their status verified by requesting a copy of the Lübeck Law.
It was Dantzig, a German-Law city with German-language burghers, which was in 1308 taken over by the Teutonic Order and Pomerelia became part of Prussia, governed by the T.O. The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.
Only in 1945 were the inhabitants drastically changed to foreigners.
Wikipedia constantly shows entries such as by Molobo and Piotrus (and by many more people) above.
Wikipedia may indefinately continue pretending, that all what is Poland since 1945, "has always been Poland" (or rather 'if it was conquered by Poland a 1000 - thousand years ago, it should again be conquered by Poland).
But that does not change the facts of history as they really happened. It is only unfortunate, that Wikipedia contains and mirrors so much of this type of lopsidedness. An Observer 07.06. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.69.190 ( talk) 17:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.' Throughout its long history Gdańsk faced various periods of rule from different states before 1945,
* 997-1308: as part of Poland * 1308-1466: as part of territory of Teutonic Order * 1466-1793: as part of Poland * 1793-1805: as part of Prussia * 1807-1814: as free city * 1815-1871: as part of Prussia * 1871-1918: Imperial Germany * 1918-1939: as a free city * 1939-1945: Nazi Germany
Altogether combining the number of years, the city was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it was given back to Poland in 1945.
Regards,
-- Molobo ( talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Molobo, Danzig is a Prussian city for 700 years now, whether you deny it or not. It simply does not matter if it was under the rule of some Polish state or some German state. And the population of Danzig spoke all the time mostly German, not Polish. Nationalism was irrelevant until the 19th century. Der Eberswalder ( talk) 18:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR ( talk) 01:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
A common name should be settled on and the double-naming eliminated. This article has been the victim of move warring and the current double-name is the result of compromise. Since the recent request to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdansk was strongly opposed, there may be a consensus settling around Teutonic takeover of Danzig. This name is also supported by the Danzig/Gdansk Vote, which indicates the use of Danzig in naming articles concerning the period 1308-1945, and the common name of the city before 1308 has been heavily disputed, with several different versions of the name (Danceke, Dantzig, etc.) appearing in historical sources. Therefore, this article should be restored to its original title of Teutonic takeover of Danzig. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 01:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
History of Danzig, Pomerelia, Prussia
Too many people lack knowledge of the history of Danzig and Pomerelia and are overwhelmed by farefetched Polish claims, thus here a summary:
Early history of territory later called Pomerelia
The territory is situated entirely in the eastern part of what Greek and Roman historians called " Magna Germania". East Germanic people were recorded by Jordanes in Gothiscandza (in territory of later Danzig and further south to later Kujavia and Masovia). The territory began to be called Pomerania in the 11th century, Pomerelia, along with the rest of Pomerania,because by then it was largely inhabited by West Slavic tribes, who overlapped with the Prussians, who used to live further west of Danzig and were recorded in Gedanum Danzig area in 997 AD, when St. Adalbert was sent by Boleslaw I, who tried to conquer them by conversion.
Ever since the first appearance of the Polanes and their dukes Mieszko I and Boleslaw I in the 10th century, the Pomeranian , Prussians, as well as all other neighboring people had to constantly fight off conquest attacks by the Polans, Poles. For a short time around 990 the Pomeranians were conquered by the Poles, who till just before 1300 were dukes, pledging allegiance to the empire.
Again in 1116/1121, Pomerania was conquered by Poland. While the Duchy of Pomerania regained independence quickly, Pomerelia remained within the Polish realm for a few years. In 1138, following the death of Duke Bolesław III, the dukes of Pomerelia gradually gained more power, evolving into dukes directly alligned to the emperors. The Samborides ruling Pomerelia ruled the duchy until 1294. Before 1227, they were short-term vassals of Poland and Denmark. The most famous dukes were Mestwin I (1207–1220), Swantopolk II (1215–1266), and Mestwin II (1271–1294).
Christianity was introduced by Bolesław III Wrymouth of Poland, while he tried to gain Pomerelia. Second attempt by Otto von Bamberg and emperor Lothar succeeded in bringing christianity. Since 1181 Pomerania was a direct part of the Holy Roman Empire (until 1806). It was under Danish suzerainty from 1210-1227, after which it became independent again.
Pomerelia as a part of Prussia, ruled by the Teutonic Knights as monastic state
After the death of duke Mestwin II of Pomerania in 1294, his co-ruler Przemysł II of Poland claimed Pomerelia basing it on the treaty made at Langenfort , later Kempen ( Treaty of Kępno) from 1282, in which Mestwin declared Przemysł II his sole successor. Yet, the Brandenburg margraves also held claims based on the Treaty of Arnswalde of 1269. Przemysl was soon succeeded by Wenzel II, king of Bohemia (an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire). That agreement was made between Romish German King Albrecht I (Albert I) of the Holy Roman Empire and King Wenzel of Bohemia, who received the territories of Greater Poland and Pomerelia into his possession and accepted soverainty over it by HRE King Albert I. In the year 1300 at Mainz Wenzel or Wenceslas II received the Polish crown from German king Albert [7].
Upon the deaths of Wenceslas II and III and with them the extinction of the House of Przemysl the Margraviate of Brandenburg staked their claim of the territory in 1308, leading Władysław I the Elbow-high to request assistance from the Teutonic Knights, which evicted the Brandenburgers. After Władysław refused to pay the substantial fee he owed to the Teutonic Knights, the province was annexed and incorporated into the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights in 1309 ( Teutonic takeover of Danzig). An Observer 24 July 2008
From the survey above:
Discussion of the proposal to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk is closed. No, a particular poll is closed. There's nothing stopping us revisiting the question, as everyone involved in any discussion regarding the name of the city in question should be painfully aware.
This discussion is about moving to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. True.
As you point out, the result of the vote was to refer to the city as Gdańsk before 1308 and Danzig after 1308, but that leaves this event as something of a gray area. Only if you ignore English grammar. When something is subject to a takeover, the thing taken over is the thing previous to the takeover.
Since the event is more commonly known as the "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" (as previously discussed on this page), the name Danzig should apply beginning with this event. The logic is good, but as far as I can see the previous discussion didn't reach a consensus supporting the premises despite your best efforts. It's a fascinating suggestion; It might for example be explained if most of the people who use this term aren't native English speakers (and WP:NC doesn't specify anywhere that we give preference to usage of native English speakers) so the rules of grammar are, shall we say, relaxed a little. Hmmm. Andrewa ( talk) 18:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand, I think the assumption that grammar is absolutely logical is flawed. I don't think this is a case where the logic of a naming argument can rest on a grammar-logic extrapolation such as the one you have presented. If the city was sufficiently well-known as "X" since the takeover, and was known as "Y" before (but also known as "X" and "Z" during that time), then it may not be so simple as to say "Y" was taken over and "X" is inappropriate. Here is an example. KFC has recently been rebranded as Kentucky Fried Chicken (the original name of the company), by its parent company Yum! Brands. Once the new marketing campaign is launched, it may well be that "KFC" will once again be commonly called "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (assuming this outcome for the sake of argument). Then it would not be grammatically incorrect to say "Kentucky Fried Chicken was acquired by Yum! Brands in 2002," even though it would be logically incorrect since the company was known as "KFC" from 1991-2007. Grammar is logical only to a certain point. In Shakespeare's day, double negatives and even triple negatives were often used for emphasis, and it has only been recently that the mathematical logic of self-canceling double negatives has been applied to the English language. Wilhelm meis ( talk) 00:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Note: [8]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"Pomeranian rebellion" is a term used by Davies and others for the beginning of the events, with the " Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)" describing the outcome of the historic events, as well as triggering an article naming conflict, which will hardly even be settled as long as the city's names are included. Besides, the whole area of Pomerelia, the eastern extension of Pomerania, was affected. Thus, I suggest a move to " Pomeranian rebellion of 1308" as there were earlier events in Pomerania proper. -- Matthead Discuß 14:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I made a minor update. Restored the elegant info and removed overblown claims of he massacre influence on WW2. Also added some references and info. Removed a copyvio of text inserted hidden in the article for unknown reasons. Still the artiicle is in terrible shape and full of undue and POV sections-- Molobo ( talk) 18:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I just made an edit to the lead. Please note that I was merely editing to get the lead sentence formally in line with the MOS, removing the tautological re-stating of the decriptive page title, and leaving the content exactly as it was. On looking further into the article, I now notice that the existing wording is probably highly contentious. Please don't take my edit as endorsing the wording and content as it stands and feel free to change. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I am confirming this as B-class for WP:POLAND, but there are some missing refs that will need to be added for a GA class and higher levels. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Teutonic takeover of Danzig(Gdańsk) gives 0 results besides wikipedia mirrors. It seems that the term massacre is the proper term for the event.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted Skapperod's recent edits. There were some very serious POV problems with these, specifically:
In particular in regard to the last one: this was a problem even before. The article is written in a way which tries very hard to suggest that since "10,000 people were not massacred" hence "no massacre took place" (aside from some stupid Polish/Pomerelian knights that were just hanging around for no reason). Actually, pretty much all sources agree that
However, the article tries to give the impression that since #1 is not exactly true that means that #2 cannot be true. But that's an obvious non-sequitur - that conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, and hence, no reliable source says that. Since no reliable source says that what is being resorted to here is just various rhetorical tricks meant to give that impression.
The article needs fixin', not further even worse povin'. VolunteerMarek 01:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Lemkin should be used as a source here. His cited work is from 1944, an is about "Axis rule in occupied Europe." The reference (w/o pg. number) is used as an example of the view that the inhabitants of Gdanzig had been Polish, however, this view is also represented by the more recent reference to Kuczynski (1987). I would also be careful regarding the latter since it was published under the Communist regime, but it is certainly better than a WWII source. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
If there are "a lot of sources" for the inhabitants of Gdanzig being Polish by 1308, why don't just replace the wartime 1944 Lemkin essay by a recently published source? And Neumeyer has nothing to do with this. Furthermore, using Lemkin as a source for the statement that the inhabitants were Polish is not even correct, since Lemkin said in 1944 that the knights 'massacred its Polish population' and did not elaborate on whether the population was exclusively Polish or not. It could just as well mean a minority population, or it could just be some WW2 essay. Skäpperöd ( talk) 18:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Quote Volunteer Marek: The insertion of dubious and certainly not reliable material based on the work of Heinz Neumeyer, who is not a reliable source. What is particularly problematic is that I'm sure Skapperod is aware of this author's background."
Of course I am aware of Neumeyer's background. He is a representative of the "old school" Danzig alumni, and some of his views have been heavily criticized. Personally, I share many of the critics' views.
On the other hand, Neumeyer is a much-cited historian and author of a recent work which includes coverage of the subject of this article. Since Hans Georg Siegler, another author whose works on Danzig are often cited has published a similar account of the take-over, Neumeyer's views of this particular event do not stand isolated.
Thus, as much as I would be opposed to representing Neumeyer's version as "the sole truth," I think it is alright to include it, attributed, as one of the many differing views of what happened which were recently published. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Neumeyer is not a suitable source, nor are any sources based on Ostforschung or connections to Nazi ideology-which has been explained to you numerous times when you tried to introduce such sources( for example Reich's propaganda publication from 1934 [9]) legitimatizing their authors as reliable.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 17:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh for freakin' sake, this is exactly what I'm talking about [10]. Your edit summary says restore attribution of Śliwiński's views to Śliwiński, restore views of William Urban and Udo Arnold (both renowned experts on Teutonic Knights issues), Halina Wątróbska (Gdansk university), Frank Fischer ( Udo Arnold (historian, Frank Fischer
Now, including these authors might be just fine. But that's not all your edit does. Once again, what you actually do is
So your edit summary that you're just "restoring" some authors is highly misleading and patently false (to put it politely). Again, you are making unwarranted changes and POV pushing like crazy under the guise of "adding sources". This is disruptive and the edit summary is dishonest. VolunteerMarek 18:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
"Modern sources are divided - are they not?" Please do not engage in WP:SYNTH. We are here to document what reliable sources present, not research of editors. "Talking about POV - a 1944 source and a 1987 source, hmmm..." I see no POV at all in Lemkin the noted and distinguished scholar who in the wake of Nazi German attempt of extermination of several nations devised Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Do you wish to expand further your views about alledged POV he represented? The lead needs to be adapted too.right now it lacks alternative names of the event(btw current name is pure Wiki creation) that is "massacre of Gdańsk", "slaughter of Gdańsk" etc. Since all articles about historical events list their names including alternative ones, this needs to be corrected. re "massacre" - usage of this word is limited to some, mostly older and mostly Polish sources I already found three modern ones and English based that use the term. I am sure I will find more. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
"Gdansk massacre" and "Gdansk slaughter" have been introduced as alternative English names for the take-over. I dispute that. I agree that the killings have been referred to as "rzeź Gdańska" in many, primarily older Polish works (88 hits), but a translation of this term has not made it into English usage.
I thus prefer a wording that reflects that some Polish sources use "rzeź Gdańska" (Gdansk slaughter) when referring to the killings, as is already stated in the article, but I see no basis for inclusion of a sentence "The event is known as Gdańsk massacre or Gdańsk slaughter." Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
re VM: Your searches without quotation marks only return hits from books that have the words "Gdansk" and "massacre/slaughter" on one page, that does not at all mean that they use the terms "Gdańsk massacre" or "Gdańsk slaughter" which is only the case if you do a search with quotation marks.
Already the first hit is a very nice example of why a search w/o quotation marks is flawed. The result is Althoff: Die Deutschen und ihr Mittelalter, p. 160. It quotes a (hopefully fictional) dialogue between a Pole and a German. The Pole says that Danzig is only German because the order "during the take-over in 1308 slaughtered 10,000 Polish burghers of Danzig in a terrible massacre." The German answers: "This Tartar message stems from the 14th century and is part of the atrocity propaganda staged by Poland against the Teutonic Order, because it felt betrayed in its own interests in Danzig ..." The dialogue is in German. So it's probably a bad proof of "the event being known as Gdansk massacre."
The search string 1308+teutonic+danzig+OR+gdansk was provided by me to get a rough number of English sources mentioning the event (Teutonic was chosen to limit the returns to English-language hits). It was not meant to suggest an alternative title. Ton clarify:
Skäpperöd ( talk) 22:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Four sources are proof of common usage of that name? Please Molobo, that reasoning is as queer as a three dollar bill. -- 24.202.1.112 ( talk) 02:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems even Loew acknowledges that the event has become known as the "Danzig Bloodbath" (Danziger Blutbud), without adding any qualifying "national" adjectives to it. Basically it's hard to take this objection seriously. VolunteerMarek 20:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I searched for the quote given here [19]:: Offensichtlich hat der Orden im Falle Danzigs einen kalkulierten Akt des Terrors ausgeübt und die Stadt zerstören lassen, aber kein Blutbad verursacht. Die neuesten polnischen Arbeiten rechnen mit an die hundert Toten
This is the only result I found:
Werner Conze, Hartmut Boockmann "Offensichtlich hat der Orden im Falle Danzigs einen kalkulierten Akt des Terrors ausgeübt und die Stadt zerstören lassen, aber kein Blutbad verursacht. Die neuesten polnischen Arbeiten rechnen mit an die hundert Toten."
This book seems to be a reprint from an earlier edition published from 1991, which had to be written even earlier before its publication, as Conze died before 1998.
As to Conze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Conze
"With the Nazis taking power, Conze, together with Schieder and Rothfels, helped to institutionalize racial ethnic research in the Third Reich.[2] According to German historian Ingo Haar, "the Nazis made use of (this) racist scholarship, which lent itself gladly". He was awarded his Ph.D. in 1934. While working for German espionage, in 1936, Conze prepared a document which portrayed Poland as backward and in need of German order and which recommended the exclusion of Jews from the legal system as Conze considered them outside the law.[2] In further work issued in 1938 Conze continued in similar vein, blaming lack of industry in Belarus on "Jewish domination"[3] Between 1937 and 1940 in a series of articles Conze proposed "dejewification" of Eastern Europe, particularly Lithuania and Belarus.[4]
He joined the NSDAP in the late 1930s. Conze's Nazi Party membership number was 5,089,796.[5]
Conze's final book was written in 1986 in which he portrayed Germans as "cultivators" of "Slavonic East" which he described as "threatening German soil".
Obviously this author is not a reliable source on Polish history, and obviously the "newest research" claim shouldn't be presented as coming from 2002.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I am uncomfortable with the section header, as my name is mentioned in there along with all that Nazi stuff. I propose to reduce this overlong header to "Is Conze a co-author?", since this is the question asked here. The answer is: No, he is not, and that is extremely easy to verify by e.g. looking at the book in question. The overlong section header and all this Nazi stuff about Conze is creating unnecessary drama about a non-issue. Skäpperöd ( talk) 07:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Also this seems to be possibly from Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas, begründet von Werner Conze, hg. v . Hartmut Boockmann, so created by Conze and printed by Boockman.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I can verify that the book says the same We don't base Wiki on personal claims of editors. Anyway since you agree that even if the book wasn't authored by Conze(which remains uncertain), you do claim that it was influenced by his research. And Conze is notorious for his role in Nazi Germany's propaganda, advocated removal of Jews, claimed Poles are "degenerated" accused Polish peasants and their "petty peasant instincts" of revolting against "German order". -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Nowhere did I "claim that it was influenced by his research." If you still have trouble interpreting your books.google result, try a decent OPAC like RI or HBZ, or you use your google books result or a library to actually look at the book. Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
The links you gave confirm that this is a reprint from 1992, not "newest research". Why have you claimed it is "newest research from up to 1998"?. And of course if bears the name of the notorious Conze in it-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Newest quote entered into the text :"sich in einer nationalistischen polnischen Tradition nicht besonders überzeugend ausnimmt, weil es sich bei jenem Danzig, das der Orden 1308 zerstörte, ja um eine überwiegend von Deutschen bewohnte Stadt gehandelt hat" to claim that the town was primarily German was also found in the 1998 book which googlebooks gives former Nazi Conze as co-author. Since Conze had primarily worked under the Nazis in propaganda regarding Teutonic-Polish history this doesn't seem reliable. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 08:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC) It is also worth mentioning that Hans Georg Siegler who studied at Reichsuniversität Posen, is not a historian.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This text cited to Loew misrepresents the source: that there were 60 to 100 victims at the most (sic).
Rather, what Loew says is that older German historiography (like the Nazi historian Erich Keyser - at this point Loew doesn't mention him explicitly, but does so later on in the text) implied that "there were 60 to victims at the most". He does not say himself that there were 60 to 100 victims at the most, NOR that modern Polish and German historians agree with this older number. In fact, in the next sentence he mentions Blazynski who explicitly states that the event was indeed a "bloodbath".
So again, there really is no disagreement among modern historians - Polish, German, English, Fijian - that a massacre in fact took place. Yes, older German historiography from before and during WWII, often carried out by Nazi historians - did try to pretend that a massacre didn't happen. But those views are WP:FRINGE and I see no reason for Wikipedia to push them.
Please stop monkeying around with sources. VolunteerMarek 21:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
What in the world is "circumstantial evidence"? This isn't a court of law, it's history. ALL evidence is "circumstantial", unless you got yourself a time machine. I'm guessing that in this case "circumstantial evidence" is just a weasely way of saying "evidence I don't like". VolunteerMarek 06:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm also not really seeing the "after world war II many Polish historians agreed", though here the translators really mangle the grammar so it's hard to say. However, since it's easy enough to find plenty of post-WWII Polish historians who most certainly did not agree with pre- and during WWII Nazi historiography on this subject, I find the claim dubious. VolunteerMarek 07:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits by Skapperod removed large parts of description that clearly showed that 16 number was only small part of mass murdered citizens
This is extremely disruptive since the source used by Skapperod actually clearly writes about massacre, large numbers of dead and that 16 murdered were only a part of the victims. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Based on Polish research up to 1998 Boockmann gives a number close to a hundred dead There is nothing about Polish research up to 1998 in Boockmann's source as far as I see. This seems especially strange since he died in 1998 and the book used is a reprint from 1992. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
To keep its B-class status, there are several citation needed tags that need to be addressed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 15:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Isn't the Teutonic "capture" or "conquest" of... more appropriate? VєсrumЬа ► TALK 18:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Most sources don't use the title Wikipedia uses, but rather the term Gdansk slaughter or massacre. I believe this should be changed to reflect scholarly view.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:28, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
In this revert [22] undid all my recent edits to the article, including copy editing. The justification for the revert was given as "restore sourced content". There's couple problems with that:
That's just for starters. There's also other problems with the text. For now I'm restoring my edits, including the copy edits and fixes of spelling and lettering. Please do not revert without discussion and substantiating any reasons for why this stuff belongs in the article. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 18:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
These "cherry picked quotations" were provided because YOU asked for them!! Talk:Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)#Sources; [23] [24] The quotations are not part of the main text but part of the ref section to verify the statements (thus, not "thrown at the reader", hardly anybody will read the complete ref section in German). To remove whole paragraphs (and not just the quotes) because these quotations are allegedly too lengthy is completely absurd, especially because these quotations exist only because of you.
However, maybe we should go into detail:
1. "According to Hartmut Boockmann, the town was primarily inhabited by Germans."
2. "Rüdiger, abbott of Oliva, entered the town in the morning, shrove some of the doomed knights and transferred 16 bodies to his abbey where they were buried near St Jacob's church"
3. "According to William Urban, the Teutonic Knights had repelled the Brandenburgers by September 1308, were welcomed by the city's burghers and seized the authority over the city for themselves. They refused to return the city to Lokietek's officials before being paid for their service by the Polish king, which in turn led to a revolt of the townspeople against the order's rule in November 1308. The order crushed the revolt, killing mostly German artisans and merchants, and remained in charge of the city."
4. "Rüdiger, abbott of Oliva, entered the town in the morning, shrove some of the doomed knights and transferred 16 bodies to his abbey where they were buried near St Jacob's church."
5. "According to William Urban, the Teutonic Knights had repelled the Brandenburgers by September 1308, were welcomed by the city's burghers and seized the authority over the city for themselves. They refused to return the city to Lokietek's officials before being paid for their service by the Polish king, which in turn led to a revolt of the townspeople against the order's rule in November 1308. The order crushed the revolt, killing mostly German artisans and merchants, and remained in charge of the city."
6. " Frank Fischer says that half of the castle and "generous reparations of all incurring costs of war" was promised to the Teutonic knights in return for aiding Bogusza's men, who were running out of supplies. When Schwarzburg's forces had entered the castle, the Brandenburgers lost confidence in capturing it and left. After tensions between Bogusza's men and the Teutonic knights about the outstanding payment arose, Plotzke arrived with another force of 4,000 knights in mid-November, whereupon the population of Gdańsk opened the gates and handed over Bogusza as well as his men and supporters of the Swienca family, who were executed on the Long Market. Since Plotzke feared that the force he intended to leave in town was too small to prevent it from being captured and manned by an opponent in the future, making it difficult to re-capture, he ordered the population to demolish the city walls and part of the city's build-up area"
7. "The massacre charge played a minor role in this inquisition and of the twelve surviving one-sided testimonies, none of them made by eyewitnesses, eight were negative responses and four were hearsay evidence not going into detail."
8. "According to William Urban, the "testimony has been used by Polish historians to bolster a patriotically tinged understanding of the era."
9. " Hartmut Boockmann asserts that 10,000 is a "typical medieval number, abundantly used by contemporary chroniclers, meaning 'very much'". He states that the original figure seems far too high compared to an overall population of Pomerelia which he estimates at 130,000. Based on Polish research, Boockmann gives a number close to a hundred dead, and says that the order "carried out a calculated act of terror and had the town destroyed, but did not cause a bloodbath."
10. "According to Loew (2011), the monument is "a typical expression of a time, when Polish national historical narratives, cultivated since the 19th century, about uprisings and lasting martyrdom, defiant pride and German-Polish enmity, met with the experiences of the war, official anti-fascism and the constant need to legitimate the possession of the formerly German eastern and now Polish Western territories.""
I think Marek already explained in detail why this information has no place here, there is no need to go in circles. As to Boockmanns and Nazi Conze's book based on Nazi Germany's publications by Nazis like Schieder and Rode from 1941 and 1944, you know exactly well that Nazis and publications published under Nazi Germany(which the book is based on) are not acceptable, so please stop. This is not the first time when you have tried to introduce such publications before in Wikipedia and you have been advised not to do so.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 09:20, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I've already provided the rationales for this above (btw, you're repeating yourself). The info involves cherry picked quotes, undue material, sources which are sketchy at best and obvious attempts at POV pushing. If you want to we can try the DR board to resolve this. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC) ...and below. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Currently the text in the article states: "whereupon the population of Gdańsk opened the gates and handed over Bogusza as well as his men and supporters of the Swienca family, who were executed on the Long Market".
The quote from the source given in support of this is "Die Bürger lenkten ein und ließen die Stadttore öffnen. Bogussa und seine Anhänger wurden an den Orden ausgeliefert und auf Geheiß des Landmeisters auf dem Langen Markt als Verräter hingerichtet, ein ähnliches Los ereilte die Parteigänger der Swenzonen."
However, pretty much every other source I'm aware of, including the testimonies at the knights' trial, state that Bogusza left the town (or was expelled) - he wasn't executed. The massacre itself took place after his departure. In fact this source [25] even says the Knights gave him a letter to carry to Lokietek.
Who is Frank Fischer? This info seems dubious in light of other sources and casts doubts on the general credibility of the source. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I would also like to add that this book "Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas: Ostpreußen und Westpreußen" is actually co-written by Nazi Conze [27], and based on sources published in Nazi Germany for example a book written by notorious Nazi Gotthold Rhode in 1941(just one example). -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 07:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Regardless of Conze's role in the book, Fischer's account is completely at odds with other sources (and primary sources too) per my comment above. It appears to differ not just on issues of interpretation but also on questions of fact - the execution of Judge Bogusza which never took place. As such it should not be present in the article. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 15:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
As probably apparent from the discussion above large portions of reliably sourced content were removed by user:Volunteer Marek and user:MyMoloboaccount [28]. The current version ignores important modern scholarly views of the topic and pushes an uncritical outdated view, certainly not WP:NPOV. HerkusMonte ( talk) 17:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC) Nazis like Conze or Schieder aren't reliable, modern or neutral Herkus. You have been told that here many times by different people in various articles.Please stop. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
As above. The problems mentioned in 2012 and 2014 here on this talk page have not been thus far resolved. Should be moved. LordParsifal ( talk) 08:57, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309),. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 14#Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309), until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 20:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309),. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 5#Polish-Teutonic War (1308-1309), until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Talk 20:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)