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Suicide methods article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article was nominated for
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Hesitation wound was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 July 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Suicide methods. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Text and/or other creative content from Suicide methods was copied or moved into Rail suicide. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I know that wikipedia believes that people have the right to search everything and I am for that. However, I think it would be best to at least show at the top a suicide prevention hotline warning. People who are searching for this may be conspiring to end their lives and we should do the best we can to stop that. 177.18.225.191 ( talk) 16:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be best to at least show at the top a suicide prevention hotline warning
Yes please do this. I am in a dark place and this article is not helping.
If you feel you may physically harm yourself, or others:
Click here for a list of crisis support resources.
Kolya Butternut (
talk) 18:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this - and the main article is protected from editing - so I will put it here and hope it helps.
(a) Argon is incorrectly listed as an inert gas that can be used with a suicide bag. It is necessary that the inert gas be less dense than air for the suicide bag to function to exclude air/oxygen and also flush away exhaled CO2. Argon is denser/heavier than air and does not work with a suicide bag. The bag fills from the top down from the flowing gas piped into the suicide bag. Then after filling the bag from the top, the ongoing excess inert gas flow spills out the partly open neck of the bag. This maintains an ongoing barrier to stop any room air / oxygen flowing into the open lower neck of the bag. It also flushes away out the open neck of the bag any exhaled CO2 which is also denser/heavier than air. This way the bag is continually kept full of the less dense inert gas, and free of CO2. This works with inert gases Helium and Nitrogen which are less dense than air. It does not work with inert gas Argon. Denser than air argon will just spill out the open neck of the bag and will not fill it from the top down and will not exclude room air/oxygen. The bag will actually continually allow in less dense fresh room air/oxygen as the denser argon flows down out the open neck of the bag. There are just 2 references that I have found describing an attempt with argon. As expected neither resulted in a fatality, in contrast to the very many demonstrated cases with Helium or nitrogen where one deep breath led to unconsciousness and death followed within approx 10 minutes.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352260222_Suicide_Attempt_by_Inhalation_of_Argon_Gas
Tincu, R.C.; Cobilinschi, C.; Tomescu, D.; Ghiorghiu, Z.; Macovei, R.A. (2016). Suicide attempt after argon gas inhalation – Case report. Toxicology Letters, 258(), S109–. doi:10.1016/j.toxlet.2016.06.1454
Argon is non toxic ( unlike eg butane or Carbon monoxide) so without almost complete exclusion of Oxygen, fatal suffocation will not result and it should not be mistakenly listed here with Helium and Nitrogen as inert gases used with a suicide bag for suffocation. Only less dense ( than air) inert gases work in this arrangement.
(b) method restrictions
The low pressure/low flow helium cylinders originally used in this method were intended as disposable helium for party balloons. They are now all filled with only 80% helium and 20% air, so they cannot be used for suicide any more.
Regular high pressure helium cylinders cannot be used for this method as suitably low flow regulators and flowmeters are not available. Regular nitrogen/argon etc flowmeter controllers yield much too high minimum flow rates for helium and are not usable.
Given that gas suppliers are aware of the nitrogen / suicide bag method, it is now extremely difficult for private individuals to obtain a cylinder of nitrogen, for which there are few uses by a private individual without eg HVAC certification.
(c) Suffocation / hanging - edit request : A ligature does not simply block the oxygen carrying carotid arteries for blood flow to be interrupted. The ligature can be fatal without being so tight as to block the carotid arteries.
- The use of a ligature first compresses the jugular veins and blocks blood flow from leaving the head, at a much lower force than that required to block the entry of fresh oxygenated blood through the deeper seated carotid arteries or the even much higher force required to occlude the airway.
This engorgement of blood in the head and blocking of blood drainage is the reason for the characteristic petechiae or burst blood vessels seen in such cases. The incoming blood is blocked because it cannot overcome the back-pressure caused by the blocked drainage veins. There is no way for the blood to get back out of the head once the veins are blocked. That is why the oxygenated blood flow input stops. The veins are blocked - then with higher force the arteries may be blocked, then with yet higher force the airway is completely blocked.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Riomhaire1 ( talk • contribs) 17:49, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
There should be a help line provided at top of this Wikipedia site 2003:C6:3F2A:ED00:5D7A:A8F0:A38B:1E8A ( talk) 02:41, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
There should be a help line provided at top of this Wikipedia site
Under List > Pesticide, it says in US pesticides are used in about 12 suicides. Based on the cited source information, I believe 12 million was meant. 172.102.168.219 ( talk) 03:19, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
The article's primary topic is suicide methods, but there is too much unnecessary covering on prevention, which should be on the suicide prevention article instead. Also, there is no need to have a purpose of study section to "justify" the article; if there are enough reliable sources on the topic etc it already passes notability criteria. The "List" section should be at the top as well.. Yhyhyy ( talk) 10:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
We have to be cognisant that descriptions of suicide methods encourage suicide, and Wikipedia, while seeking to be an unbiased encyclopaedia, should not be encouraging what is usually a mental health problem. By couching discussion of suicide methods within a wider context, we are literally saving lives. A bias towards prevention is a good thing. Bondegezou ( talk) 11:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The original:
A drug overdose involves taking a dose of a drug that exceeds safe levels. In the UK (England and Wales) until 2013, a drug overdose was the most common suicide method in females. In 2019 in males the percentage is 16%. Self-poisoning accounts for the highest number of non-fatal suicide attempts. In the United States about 60% of suicide attempts and 14% of suicide deaths involve drug overdoses. The risk of death in suicide attempts involving overdose is about 2%.[verification needed]
Edit:
A drug overdose involves taking a dosage of a drug or drugs that exceeds safe levels. In the UK, in 2013, drug overdose was the most common suicide method among women. For men, as of 2019, the rate was 16%. In the United States, about 60% of suicide attempts and 14% of suicide deaths involve drug overdoses. Self-poisoning accounts for the highest number of non-fatal suicide attempts. The risk of death in an overdose related suicide attempt is around 2%.[verification needed]
There are a number of grammatical issues in the current edit. Dstryker120 ( talk) 23:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) regarding the use of suicide crisis telephone numbers. The thread is Suicide hotlines. Thank you. TheSpacebook ( talk) 21:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Dustfreeworld put this image in the lead about two weeks ago. @ Wound theology removed it today.
I wonder whether this article should have a lead image at all. I thought Dustfreeworld's placement of the firearm-specific Manet painting in the ===Shooting=== section was a good choice. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:40, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
“I'm not sure that a general line is relevant to any particular method”You are right. That’s why it belongs to the lead. -- Dustfreeworld ( talk) 18:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
I have no objection to placing the image in "Mediareporting."
“...many other users have reverted the crisis lifeline in the lead”
firearm-specific image, it is one of the most famous depictions of suicide ever produced. You can say
twicethat it is "undue" for the lede, but that's wholly irrelevant here. It's for illustrative purposes.
how to commit suicideand it needs
balance, while on the other hand stating that the hotline image is not how to get help (i.e., what would balance a HOWTO article on suicide.)
I thought Dustfreeworld's placement of the firearm-specific Manet painting in the Shooting section was a good choice.
I think we do have to be sensitive to Wikipedia guidance, like WP:NOTDIRECTORY, but I am also happier to WP:IAR here than practically anywhere else on Wikipedia given that we know information about suicide methods, depictions of suicide and provision of support for people feeling suicidal all have very real world impacts on people’s lives. I like WhatamIdoing’s thinking above. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
is something currently being. That was me contributing to the discussion! Bondegezou ( talk) 10:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
we know information about suicide methods, depictions of suicide and provision of support for people feeling suicidal all have very real world impacts on people’s lives.
Bondegezou ( talk) 10:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
If we can move on from the distraction of the above dispute, I just wanted to say that I think the article is looking better now and would like to thank everyone who inputted into the discussion. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation's Trust and Safety team maintains a
list of crisis support resources. If you see a threat of harm on Wikipedia, please follow these steps. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Suicide methods article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 400 days |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Suicide methods. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Suicide methods at the Reference desk. |
While you may consider this article depressing or disturbing, please remember this page is only for discussing improvements to the article. Wikipedia is not censored, but articles do have to meet certain standards. |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
Hesitation wound was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 July 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Suicide methods. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from Suicide methods was copied or moved into Rail suicide. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I know that wikipedia believes that people have the right to search everything and I am for that. However, I think it would be best to at least show at the top a suicide prevention hotline warning. People who are searching for this may be conspiring to end their lives and we should do the best we can to stop that. 177.18.225.191 ( talk) 16:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be best to at least show at the top a suicide prevention hotline warning
Yes please do this. I am in a dark place and this article is not helping.
If you feel you may physically harm yourself, or others:
Click here for a list of crisis support resources.
Kolya Butternut (
talk) 18:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this - and the main article is protected from editing - so I will put it here and hope it helps.
(a) Argon is incorrectly listed as an inert gas that can be used with a suicide bag. It is necessary that the inert gas be less dense than air for the suicide bag to function to exclude air/oxygen and also flush away exhaled CO2. Argon is denser/heavier than air and does not work with a suicide bag. The bag fills from the top down from the flowing gas piped into the suicide bag. Then after filling the bag from the top, the ongoing excess inert gas flow spills out the partly open neck of the bag. This maintains an ongoing barrier to stop any room air / oxygen flowing into the open lower neck of the bag. It also flushes away out the open neck of the bag any exhaled CO2 which is also denser/heavier than air. This way the bag is continually kept full of the less dense inert gas, and free of CO2. This works with inert gases Helium and Nitrogen which are less dense than air. It does not work with inert gas Argon. Denser than air argon will just spill out the open neck of the bag and will not fill it from the top down and will not exclude room air/oxygen. The bag will actually continually allow in less dense fresh room air/oxygen as the denser argon flows down out the open neck of the bag. There are just 2 references that I have found describing an attempt with argon. As expected neither resulted in a fatality, in contrast to the very many demonstrated cases with Helium or nitrogen where one deep breath led to unconsciousness and death followed within approx 10 minutes.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352260222_Suicide_Attempt_by_Inhalation_of_Argon_Gas
Tincu, R.C.; Cobilinschi, C.; Tomescu, D.; Ghiorghiu, Z.; Macovei, R.A. (2016). Suicide attempt after argon gas inhalation – Case report. Toxicology Letters, 258(), S109–. doi:10.1016/j.toxlet.2016.06.1454
Argon is non toxic ( unlike eg butane or Carbon monoxide) so without almost complete exclusion of Oxygen, fatal suffocation will not result and it should not be mistakenly listed here with Helium and Nitrogen as inert gases used with a suicide bag for suffocation. Only less dense ( than air) inert gases work in this arrangement.
(b) method restrictions
The low pressure/low flow helium cylinders originally used in this method were intended as disposable helium for party balloons. They are now all filled with only 80% helium and 20% air, so they cannot be used for suicide any more.
Regular high pressure helium cylinders cannot be used for this method as suitably low flow regulators and flowmeters are not available. Regular nitrogen/argon etc flowmeter controllers yield much too high minimum flow rates for helium and are not usable.
Given that gas suppliers are aware of the nitrogen / suicide bag method, it is now extremely difficult for private individuals to obtain a cylinder of nitrogen, for which there are few uses by a private individual without eg HVAC certification.
(c) Suffocation / hanging - edit request : A ligature does not simply block the oxygen carrying carotid arteries for blood flow to be interrupted. The ligature can be fatal without being so tight as to block the carotid arteries.
- The use of a ligature first compresses the jugular veins and blocks blood flow from leaving the head, at a much lower force than that required to block the entry of fresh oxygenated blood through the deeper seated carotid arteries or the even much higher force required to occlude the airway.
This engorgement of blood in the head and blocking of blood drainage is the reason for the characteristic petechiae or burst blood vessels seen in such cases. The incoming blood is blocked because it cannot overcome the back-pressure caused by the blocked drainage veins. There is no way for the blood to get back out of the head once the veins are blocked. That is why the oxygenated blood flow input stops. The veins are blocked - then with higher force the arteries may be blocked, then with yet higher force the airway is completely blocked.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Riomhaire1 ( talk • contribs) 17:49, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
There should be a help line provided at top of this Wikipedia site 2003:C6:3F2A:ED00:5D7A:A8F0:A38B:1E8A ( talk) 02:41, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
There should be a help line provided at top of this Wikipedia site
Under List > Pesticide, it says in US pesticides are used in about 12 suicides. Based on the cited source information, I believe 12 million was meant. 172.102.168.219 ( talk) 03:19, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
The article's primary topic is suicide methods, but there is too much unnecessary covering on prevention, which should be on the suicide prevention article instead. Also, there is no need to have a purpose of study section to "justify" the article; if there are enough reliable sources on the topic etc it already passes notability criteria. The "List" section should be at the top as well.. Yhyhyy ( talk) 10:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
We have to be cognisant that descriptions of suicide methods encourage suicide, and Wikipedia, while seeking to be an unbiased encyclopaedia, should not be encouraging what is usually a mental health problem. By couching discussion of suicide methods within a wider context, we are literally saving lives. A bias towards prevention is a good thing. Bondegezou ( talk) 11:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The original:
A drug overdose involves taking a dose of a drug that exceeds safe levels. In the UK (England and Wales) until 2013, a drug overdose was the most common suicide method in females. In 2019 in males the percentage is 16%. Self-poisoning accounts for the highest number of non-fatal suicide attempts. In the United States about 60% of suicide attempts and 14% of suicide deaths involve drug overdoses. The risk of death in suicide attempts involving overdose is about 2%.[verification needed]
Edit:
A drug overdose involves taking a dosage of a drug or drugs that exceeds safe levels. In the UK, in 2013, drug overdose was the most common suicide method among women. For men, as of 2019, the rate was 16%. In the United States, about 60% of suicide attempts and 14% of suicide deaths involve drug overdoses. Self-poisoning accounts for the highest number of non-fatal suicide attempts. The risk of death in an overdose related suicide attempt is around 2%.[verification needed]
There are a number of grammatical issues in the current edit. Dstryker120 ( talk) 23:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) regarding the use of suicide crisis telephone numbers. The thread is Suicide hotlines. Thank you. TheSpacebook ( talk) 21:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Dustfreeworld put this image in the lead about two weeks ago. @ Wound theology removed it today.
I wonder whether this article should have a lead image at all. I thought Dustfreeworld's placement of the firearm-specific Manet painting in the ===Shooting=== section was a good choice. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 21:40, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
“I'm not sure that a general line is relevant to any particular method”You are right. That’s why it belongs to the lead. -- Dustfreeworld ( talk) 18:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
I have no objection to placing the image in "Mediareporting."
“...many other users have reverted the crisis lifeline in the lead”
firearm-specific image, it is one of the most famous depictions of suicide ever produced. You can say
twicethat it is "undue" for the lede, but that's wholly irrelevant here. It's for illustrative purposes.
how to commit suicideand it needs
balance, while on the other hand stating that the hotline image is not how to get help (i.e., what would balance a HOWTO article on suicide.)
I thought Dustfreeworld's placement of the firearm-specific Manet painting in the Shooting section was a good choice.
I think we do have to be sensitive to Wikipedia guidance, like WP:NOTDIRECTORY, but I am also happier to WP:IAR here than practically anywhere else on Wikipedia given that we know information about suicide methods, depictions of suicide and provision of support for people feeling suicidal all have very real world impacts on people’s lives. I like WhatamIdoing’s thinking above. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
is something currently being. That was me contributing to the discussion! Bondegezou ( talk) 10:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
we know information about suicide methods, depictions of suicide and provision of support for people feeling suicidal all have very real world impacts on people’s lives.
Bondegezou ( talk) 10:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
If we can move on from the distraction of the above dispute, I just wanted to say that I think the article is looking better now and would like to thank everyone who inputted into the discussion. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)