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The last sentence of the first paragraph looks strange - as if a chunk has been deleted after gemina. Does anyone know what was meant to be there? Vignaux 19:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Does "The governor... was forced to abandon the city -- and anyone who could retreat with him" mean that the governor abandoned some citzens as well? If so, this sentence is somewhat ambiguous, as it also sounds like a confusing incomplete sentence like:
Wouldn't a hypothetical sentence be more clear here? "forced to abandon the city -- and anyone who could have retreated with him"?
-- Menchi 14:46 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As I wrote about the citizen questions above, I thought of another important topic for the article.
-- Menchi 23:41 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Good questions. Based on my reading, the best possible answers are:
As you see, Menchi, there's a lot of guesswork involved answering these questions, & I'm only menitoning the problems I can recall off the top of my head. I could have worked more of this information into Wikipedia, but I was just happy enough to write an article with some kind of logical order to it, & call it good enough, so I could pay attention to other topics that lacked even this much treatment. (And these topics might fit better under the article Romano-British, which I consider would discuss the social & cultural history of the people associated with Roman Britain.) -- llywrch 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Do we really need a list of "Romano-British settlements" here, when we also have an article of Roman Place Names? I don't see the point of this duplication. -- llywrch 02:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just a point - Britain does have a language spoken by pre-Roman inhabitants, Welsh. True, it's not the main language, but nonetheless, it is one of the de facto official languages of the UK, and is spoken by quite a few people.
This page overlaps considerably with Roman invasion of Britain. Perhaps they should be combined? (I posted a corresponding comment on Talk:Roman invasion of Britain. Fpahl 16:27, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I find Adamsan's redraft of this very helpful - thanks. A few points still need attention, I feel:
Mark O'Sullivan 09:17, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this reply. To respond again:
Mark O'Sullivan 07:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I need persuading of WikiRat's stuff about Xity. What are his secondary sources? The primary sources he cites are the kind of thing traditionally seen as interpolations by enthusiastic medieval Christians (well, Gildas and his friends may have made it up themselves - Gildas, remember, had so feeble a grasp of history that he thought that Hadrian's Wall was constructed in the fourth century, instead of the second). And there is good other evidence that there weren't a lot of Christians until pagan sacrifice was banned in 398 (eg the character of mosaics in Britain, or the thin British representation at councils and synods). I suggest that this article should be much more cautious about this. Mark O'Sullivan 20:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark O'Sullivan 09:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark O'Sullivan 22:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
But there is evidence archaeological evidence of Christian worship pre third and fourth century contrary to your claim. In fact, the fastest growing body of evidence for my claim is archaeological. Feel free to direct your attention to Tomlin, R. S. O. ‘Vinisius to Nigra: Evidence from Oxford of Christianity in Roman Britain.’ Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 100 (1994), pg. 93-108 which outlines a letter on lead, found in Bath, deciphered, translated and annotated by E. W. B. Nicholson. In this letter Vinisius (a Christian) is writing to Christian lady named Nigra, living in Bath about the arrival of Bilonicus, whom he calls a "canem Arii", that is, a follower of the heretic Arios. Remember that Arios died about C.E. 336. In other words he was complaining of threats to his faith (sounds like many modern Christians).
Strictly speaking, this only proves that there were at least two Christians in Britain before C.E. 336, but it strongly implies (if Christians are writing each other, and complaining about heresies that there were Christian communities. For other evidence of Christian communities in sub-Roman Britain note that physical evidence exists that proves how wide spread Christianity had become. It seems to have been common in Ireland by C.E. 418. Check out the established fifth century Christian community in the most unlikely spots - Lundy Island (hardly a place in you'd expect a Christian community to be flourishing early in the fifth century on out of the way islands). Furthermore look at the remarkable stone evidence found 1905 that gave rise to our knowledge about the Christianization of this place (inscribed standing stones)? Look for Gardner, Keith S. - 'Lundy, An Archaeological Field Guide (Landmark Trust)' or Charles Thomas’ ‘And Shall These Mute Stones Speak?’,University of Wales, ISBN 0-7083-1160-1.
There is increasing evidence in looking at changing British Burial practices pre-third century, that Christianity was having an effect on belief. This evidence reasonably would be an earlier indicator of change in belief, before the secular cultural record would (which I assume you spend the bulk of your time looking at). To look at ancient British burial practices, check out the ancient sub-Roman cemeteries that have been recently excavated in Brean Down, Ancaster, Poundbury, Shepton Mallet, and Cannington. All of these sites show the changing burial practices among the Britons and signal the increasingly wide-spread conversion of these communities to Christianity. Furthermore, they indicated that Christianity was more common in a popular sense, than this article indicates.
You can’t claim that no archaeological evidence exists to support my edit for that depends entirely upon how narrowly you look at the archaeological record. In looking for archaeological evidence of early Christian worship in Britain, you must look beyond coins and crosses. I suppose if you don't believe Christianity came to Britain before Rome you won't bother looking for evidence, and if you happen across such evidence, would tend to discard it outright despite its implication.
I agree with Diocletian that we should not uncritically accept all that Gildas wrote, however though he should not be read uncritically, we cannot simply ignore those sources we do not like or think highly of. If my edit were entirely based upon what Gildas wrote, you would be quite right to remove it, however the evidence is far greater than that, so lets re-examine Gildas’ claim. The only native sources of information about the sub-Roman Britain accounts of these centuries come from Gildas and Patrick, and so we could throw out everything that Gildas says as Mark O'Sullivan suggest, but then we damn ourselves to knowing nothing about the period at all. Gildas does state that Christianity came to Britain in the last years of Tiberius ('rigenti insulae...tempore Tiberii...radios suos indulget Christus' ch 8), you can disbelieve his claim if you wish despite the evidence to the contrary.
Yes of course, there is a small camp of scholars who say 'was it really Gildas who wrote that' or 'can we believe Gildas', however is Gildas is unreliable because of this assertion? If you happen to believe that Christianity came to Britain much later, than yes. If however Christianity came to Britain the same time it came to Rome, than that statement is not unreliable. Regardless, neither Gildas nor Patrick were ‘trying’ to write histories, however that does not invalidate our use of their work.
Regarding adamsan's comment to check out a summary of my reasoning about these issues see the Talk:Caratacus page. I quite agree, you should check out my reasoning there, so you can see how much of a nut I am (for not accepting perfectly acceptable orthodox scholarship). Saving you the effort, I’ll admit up front that;
20th Century scholars have been the ones to formulate the counter argument that Rome brought with it Christianity, however 20th Century scholars also show a shocking lack of familiarity with ancient texts, the material record, and almost a complete reliance on secondary or tertiary sources. (How can you write about history, when you restrict your research almost completely, to the views of others who themselves are writing about history? Someone at sometime has to be looking at the evidence first hand.)
Other considerations when looking at this are;
Many modern secondary sources looking Christianity’s ingress into the British Isles seem to adopt the rather boring and somewhat plebian ‘party line’ that blames the Romans for Christianity being in Britain in the first place. This may or may not be true, but certainly looking at primary sources, one can see why many have made this argument (Christianity was certainly making ingress into the Roman Empire at the same time – why not?)
I agree that;
I do not agree that;
Put this business in its own article? I don't mind either way, but it should be at least referenced in this one, because Rome's part in Britain did influence latter British belief, and as you know, there is a body of scholars that refuse to abandon the idea that the only relationship between Christianity and Britain is Rome.
-- WikiRat 23:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Part of my point is that attacking a single argument does not invalidate the whole argument, as the evidence is beyond simply one or two antiquated references. Another aspect that I tried to argue is that it has been pretty much until the Reformation that the role of the early Celtic Christians was recognized, and that after the reformation this started to change. Feel free to check out my revisions to Celtic Christianity where I have flushed out the literary evidence more thoroughly - mostly provided by Latin references. -- WikiRat 19:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
You'll want to re-read that - the reference to St Martins shows that churches existed before Saint Augustine, which he referenced himself in his letters to Pope Gregory I (Epistolae ad Gregorium Papam). If the contention is that Christianity was common before Saint Augustine, and Saint Augustine himself references the existance of Churches than the question remains, how early was Christianity in Britain. Again, I recommend you check out Celtic_Christianity to see more on that question.
There seems to be some debate over the extent of Roman influence in Britain and I thought we could discuss it here. I find the current claim that only the southern two thirds of the island were under Roman control to be at best simplistic.
The historically attested physical Roman presence as far north as Moray at its greatest extent suggests that more than two thirds of the island was under their control for some of the occupation. Of course the Orcadians went so far as to send supplicants all the way down to Kent to surrender to Claudius in 43BC and as the article states the northern tribes were under de jure if not de facto submission for a considerable period.
This article attempts to cover Roman Britain and the existing introduction implies that northern Britain was entirely independent for the entire Roman period. We may argue that the far north (one sixth?) of the island never saw Roman occupation but even there the evidence of trade and cultural contacts suggests a strong degree of Romanisation. As a result, I find the existing definition to be incorrect and based on a misunderstanding of the period. adamsan 19:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The Legacy
The article asserts that Britain is the largest part of Europe which the Romans ruled in which neither a Latin-based language nor the speech of a pre-Roman population survived. That needs two qualifications: first, that some Celtic speech existed in England long after the Anglo-Saxon conquest that transformned the Celtic-Roman Britain into the Germanic England. Ignoring Wales, there was Cumberland, where Celtic speech lingered into the middle ages, and there is Cornwall, where a Celtic language became effectively extinct only in early-modern times. How long Celtic speech lingered in counties bordering Wales is a matter of conjecture. If Welsh is heavily laden with words of Latin origin, then so is English.
Also, there perhaps may be confusion between the ancient and modern use of the word "Britain" In modern times the phrase is used, perhaps erroneously, to cover the entire United Kingdom. If this is assumed to be correct, then Scotland certainly still speaks a language descended from the pre-Roman inhabitants, namely Scottish Gaelic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.141.81 ( talk) 14:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Second, another region in Europe clearly fits that description as a place where neither a pre-Roman speech not a Romance language survived: the arc of lands including the entier Rhine and Danube valleys (except for Romania and - questionably Alsace-Lorraine) where Germanic and Slavonic languages (Dutch, German, Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Makedonian, and Bulgarian) and Hungarian prevail. If one looks at the parts of the former Yugoslavia that were under Roman rule, that is a territory rivaling England in size; if one adds Bulgaria to the same parts of the former Yugoslavia, one has a region decidedly larger than Roman Britain.-- 66.231.41.57 04:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Romanians descend from tribes in the southern parts of the Balkans and started to move into the territory of the former Roman province called Dacia in the early Middle Ages. So there's no continuity there. 82.33.107.222 ( talk)
Terminology
I would be very careful using the term "Romanisation" as it applies to Britain (or any province really) as they are unstable terms within the scholarly world, and thus, very much debated and under constant review and possibly subject to radical reinterpretation (as the idea has already undergone in the last 70 years). For references see e.g. Woolf "Beyond Romans and Natives" or Webster's article on "Creolization" either of which can be searched for in JSTOR.
Other terms I would be very careful about are "Borders" and "Frontiers", especially when talking about the Hadrian or Antonine "walls". Romans didn't even have a word for those things ('Fines' and 'Limes' are not direct equivalents for our concepts of the "Frontier"). Again, definitions here are undergoing change in the scholarly sphere as thinking about them gains sophistication. For example see Whittaker's 2005 book on the Roman Frontier.
GermanicusCaesar ( talk) 22:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article Roman conquest of Britain, Octavian (Augustus) threatened to invade Britain, but called off his invasions when the Britons "came to terms". The same article states "According to Augustus's Res Gestae, two British kings, Dumnovellaunus and Tincomarus, sent supplications to Rome during his reign, and Strabo's Geography, written during this period, says that Britain paid more in customs and duties than could be raised by taxation if the island were conquered."
This has the ring of truth, and it is at odds with this article's statement that after Julius Caesar's invasion, "The British tribes were not to hear from Rome again until Claudius's permenant invasion and occupation centuries later." Also, the timespan between Caesar's invasion (54 B.C.) and the conquest (47 A.D.) is just 101 years. Consequently, I have just changed this to read "The British tribes remained independent of Rome until Claudius' permanent conquest and occupation a century later." Marco polo 02:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Compare the size of Roman Greece to Roman Britain articles. How ridiculous, did Britain contribute anything to the Empire? Not really. Yet Greece was the basis of what is referred to as Classical Roman Culture.
I disagree
a)is not important the size of the article, but the quality
b)even the walls know that the Roman province of Britannia was not exactly the most important province of the empire,but the Roman presence in Britain should not be underestimated ,for a lot of reasons: it is part of your history,it is part of what you are today (did you know approximately 20 25% of English words come directly from the Latin?,do you think that words like castle (from castrum) fortification (from fortificatio) and other 1000 and 1000 words come from the Japanese?) and at the end If is not the English Wikipedia to underline the Roman presence in Britain who has to do it? Portuguese Wikipedia maybe? -- Altro21 ( talk) 14:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence "Julius Caesar describes the Britons as being descended from the Belgae, a Germanic people ([De Bello Gallico]] v.xii and ii.iv)" from the "Sub-Roman Britain" section partly because it doesn't belong there, and partly because it's plain wrong. Caesar does not say the Britons were descended from the Belgae. He said in relatively recent times there had been some Belgic settlement in Britain. It's also wrong to say the Belgae were unequivocally "Germanic". "Germanic" is a linguistic classification, and all the evidence shows the language of the Belgae in Gaul and Britain was Celtic. -- Nicknack009 08:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I don't mind you taking it out. But if you read the parts I referenced in Caesar, you'll see that he actually does say that the inhabitants are Belgae. Notice that he tells us that who he supposes the aboriginals to be live further inland. So, he tells us there are Belgae and aboriginals, and the Belgae inhabit the South and coastal areas. The Belgae he says come from Germany originally. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the inhabitants of England spoke a Celtic tongue. Please look for such a reference in classical literature or in epigraphy. You won't find one, because there isn't one. That the ancient Britons spoke Celtic in what is now England is just a nice story, that's all. Kozushi 22:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
-- Nicknack009 07:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)40 Debbie Pearl 1 ( talk) 07:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)It' interesting that modern Welsh is very close to Hebrew, different only in the pronounciation of some words.
The following fact should be removed as it appears to be based upon an error made by the scholar who first attempted to translate this tablet: "A letter found in Bath, datable to ca. 363, written in Wroxeter by a Christian man called Vinisius, warns a Christian women called Nigra of the arrival of Bilonicus, describing him as a canem Arii, an 'Arian dog', indicating that the struggle between orthodoxy and heresy was present in Britain as elsewhere in the empire."
The footnote provided following this item in the article leads to a paper that says the entire story about Vinisius, Nigra, and Bilonicus was a mistake perpetuated by an over zealous scholar who attempted to read the tablet upsidedown. Tomlin, R. S. O. (1994). "Vinisius to Nigra: Evidence from Oxford of Christianity in Roman Britain" (PDF). Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 100: 93-108. Retrieved on December 13, 2006. Here is a link to the document above: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/1994/100pdf/100093.pdf
-- Jjhake ( talk) 22:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since the name of this province of Rome was Britannia, shouldn't " Britannia" redirect here?? The personification should have an article as Britannia (goddess) IMO. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 19:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The translation of Noviomagus as 'New Market' by an editor of this page is currently inconsistent with the translation 'new field' on the
Noviomagus_Reg page itself and also with the article on the meaning of word
magus (in brief: astrologer; astronomer; magician (derog.); trickster).
I have placed -fact- tags on both editors offerings, for the time being.
The fact that Nijmegen is Dutch for 'new market' (if so) is not disputed (by me) at this point but it's as if it is being offered to support a theory which isn't strong enough in its own right (whilst lacking a citation) and, other than in that role, it is not relevant to the main article and should be removed.
As an additional complication, at the moment there is a redirect from Noviomagus Regnorum to Noviomagus Reginorum but I will restrict all discussion about that to the
Talk:Noviomagus_Reginorum page.
EatYerGreens (
talk)
12:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, i m sorry for my english , i ll try to explain from where come from Noviomagus. NOVUS or NOVI (NEW) ACTUS ( this word com from verb AGO and it has a plurality of meanings ,ie here it means trade,exchange, or exchanges,trades).. Novus/Novi Actus ,Noviomagus it could be a successive transformation or a misspelling/mispronunciation . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Without23 ( talk) 20:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
I've corrected this section and provided some decent sources ('snails' and 'nettles' was simply wrong, as they were in Britain before the Romans, it was only specific species that they introduced). But this still needs enlarging, eg Roman engineering made changes, farming made changes, etc. Dougweller ( talk) 09:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
In the article it says "former senator" in the provincial gov. section. In ancient Rome becoming a senator was for life unless kicked out, and that would probably not be the kind of man governing the province of Britain... I would suggest checking on what a governor's past credentials would be. K2mac ( talk) 05:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
But to preach to all the Name of Jesus, to teach about His marvellous deeds in country and town, that some of them should take possession of the Roman Empire, and the Queen of Cities itself, and others the Persian, others the Armenian, that others should go to the Parthian race, and yet others to the Scythian, that some already should have reached the very ends of the world, should have reached the land of the Indians, and some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain, all this I for my part will not admit to be the work of mere men, far less of poor and ignorant men, certainly not of deceivers and wizards. Eusebius of Caesarea, Demonstratio Evangelica (before 311 AD), Book 3, Chapter 5 AJRG ( talk) 20:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Meanwhile these islands, stiff with cold and frost, and in a distant region of the world, remote from the visible sun, received the beams of light, that is, the holy precepts of Christ, the true Sun, showing to the whole world his splendour, not only from the temporal firmament, but from the height of heaven, which surpasses every thing temporal, at the latter part, as we know, of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, by whom his religion was propagated without impediment, and death threatened to those who interfered with Its professors. Gildas (c.504-570) De Excidio Britanniae, Chapter 8 AJRG ( talk) 21:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
...and how do you intend the above quotes to be of use to the article? Nev1 ( talk) 22:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The BBC programme In Our Time presented by Melvyn Bragg has an episode which may be about this subject (if not moving this note to the appropriate talk page earns cookies). You can add it to "External links" by pasting * {{In Our Time|Roman Britain|p00548xn}}. Rich Farmbrough, 03:20, 16 September 2010 (UTC).
I need help, I deleted some stuff by accident. How do I change it back? -Eladynnus
Could you please explain the reasons for removal rather than simply removing it? It was unclear from the edit summary.-- SabreBD ( talk) 21:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that it makes little sense to place "AD" after the date. "AD" means Anno Domini, "In the year of our Lord." If we're going to use "B.C." and "AD," then respect what the term means. To say, "2011 in the year of our Lord" makes no sense; it does make sense to reverse it. The fact that it happens frequently doesn't really change the fact that it doesn't make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinFox ( talk • contribs) 02:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
OK, to John, I would say, isn't Wikipedia supposed to be scholarly? MartinFox ( talk) 00:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
And to SabreBD, I would say, if AD can go before, or after, than why was I deemed wrong to make it consistent? (In one article I put them all before.) Also can the WP:ERA not be questioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinFox ( talk • contribs) 00:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I chose to change the language from "the region" to "the former Roman province," as A Scotland was never really under Roman rule and B Scots Gaelic is also a living minority language similar to Welsh. The fact that the name of the former Roman province eventually became the name of the geographic island does admittedly invite confusion. Chris-Gilmore77 ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
In the lead is this sentence: "In 40 AD, Caligula assembled 200,000 men at the Channel, only to have them gather seashells." Is this literally true, or just a metaphor for doing nothing? Either way, it should be mentioned and explained in the rest of the article. It was added in a February 2015 edit by LlywelynII. -- Usernameunique ( talk) 23:07, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
My edit describing the area of Roman Britain has been reverted, but I think it was correct. My version was "It comprised almost all of England and Wales and, for a short period, southern Scotland." Laurel Lodged changed it to "It comprised all of England, the majority of Wales and, for a short period, the southern half of Scotland." Every part of this is wrong. All of England was not under Roman rule (except during the short period of the Antonine Wall) as Hadrian's Wall runs wholly through England, and it is 68 miles south of the border at the eastern end. According to maps of Roman Britain and History of Wales, the whole of Wales was part of Roman Britain. It is also not correct that the southern half of Scotland was under Roman rule as the area between the Scottish border and the Antonine Wall is much less than half the area never ruled by Rome. I will revert unless someone shows I am wrong. Dudley Miles ( talk) 10:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Speedy moved per WP:BRD. Anyone who wishes to move the page away from the long-term status quo may start a new RM. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Province of Britain → Roman Britain – The name has been changed without discussion. Such a major change should not be made without consensus, and I strongly disagree with it. The new name will mean nothing to the great majority of readers. Books on the province are almost always titled with some variation on "Roman Britian" and we should follow commono usage. Dudley Miles ( talk) 13:39, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Florian Blaschke reverted my deletion of text and image relating to King Arthur and changed the text to
I do not think this is satisfactory. The statement that the historicity of Arthur is rejected is unreferenced, and Morris is not a reliable source. I suggest
The image of Arthur should be deleted.
Dudley Miles ( talk) 13:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
I just wonder if there is any evidence of a public feeling of being occupied like in 275 AD. Also - Great Britain never returned to be what it was before the occupation. It was an occupation to begin with. But after a couple of generations, very few (if any) knew how it had been 150 years earlier. 83.250.73.248 ( talk) 08:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Should this not be called Britannia? For the province to be referred to in English then the capitals to be referred to in Latin is rather inconsistent. Faren29 ( talk) 12:04, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
This wording implies it is immenient that English no longer remains the official language of Britian. A strange sentence and out of character with the rest of the page. 82.132.187.200 ( talk) 14:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
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The last sentence of the first paragraph looks strange - as if a chunk has been deleted after gemina. Does anyone know what was meant to be there? Vignaux 19:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Does "The governor... was forced to abandon the city -- and anyone who could retreat with him" mean that the governor abandoned some citzens as well? If so, this sentence is somewhat ambiguous, as it also sounds like a confusing incomplete sentence like:
Wouldn't a hypothetical sentence be more clear here? "forced to abandon the city -- and anyone who could have retreated with him"?
-- Menchi 14:46 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As I wrote about the citizen questions above, I thought of another important topic for the article.
-- Menchi 23:41 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Good questions. Based on my reading, the best possible answers are:
As you see, Menchi, there's a lot of guesswork involved answering these questions, & I'm only menitoning the problems I can recall off the top of my head. I could have worked more of this information into Wikipedia, but I was just happy enough to write an article with some kind of logical order to it, & call it good enough, so I could pay attention to other topics that lacked even this much treatment. (And these topics might fit better under the article Romano-British, which I consider would discuss the social & cultural history of the people associated with Roman Britain.) -- llywrch 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Do we really need a list of "Romano-British settlements" here, when we also have an article of Roman Place Names? I don't see the point of this duplication. -- llywrch 02:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just a point - Britain does have a language spoken by pre-Roman inhabitants, Welsh. True, it's not the main language, but nonetheless, it is one of the de facto official languages of the UK, and is spoken by quite a few people.
This page overlaps considerably with Roman invasion of Britain. Perhaps they should be combined? (I posted a corresponding comment on Talk:Roman invasion of Britain. Fpahl 16:27, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I find Adamsan's redraft of this very helpful - thanks. A few points still need attention, I feel:
Mark O'Sullivan 09:17, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this reply. To respond again:
Mark O'Sullivan 07:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I need persuading of WikiRat's stuff about Xity. What are his secondary sources? The primary sources he cites are the kind of thing traditionally seen as interpolations by enthusiastic medieval Christians (well, Gildas and his friends may have made it up themselves - Gildas, remember, had so feeble a grasp of history that he thought that Hadrian's Wall was constructed in the fourth century, instead of the second). And there is good other evidence that there weren't a lot of Christians until pagan sacrifice was banned in 398 (eg the character of mosaics in Britain, or the thin British representation at councils and synods). I suggest that this article should be much more cautious about this. Mark O'Sullivan 20:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark O'Sullivan 09:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark O'Sullivan 22:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
But there is evidence archaeological evidence of Christian worship pre third and fourth century contrary to your claim. In fact, the fastest growing body of evidence for my claim is archaeological. Feel free to direct your attention to Tomlin, R. S. O. ‘Vinisius to Nigra: Evidence from Oxford of Christianity in Roman Britain.’ Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 100 (1994), pg. 93-108 which outlines a letter on lead, found in Bath, deciphered, translated and annotated by E. W. B. Nicholson. In this letter Vinisius (a Christian) is writing to Christian lady named Nigra, living in Bath about the arrival of Bilonicus, whom he calls a "canem Arii", that is, a follower of the heretic Arios. Remember that Arios died about C.E. 336. In other words he was complaining of threats to his faith (sounds like many modern Christians).
Strictly speaking, this only proves that there were at least two Christians in Britain before C.E. 336, but it strongly implies (if Christians are writing each other, and complaining about heresies that there were Christian communities. For other evidence of Christian communities in sub-Roman Britain note that physical evidence exists that proves how wide spread Christianity had become. It seems to have been common in Ireland by C.E. 418. Check out the established fifth century Christian community in the most unlikely spots - Lundy Island (hardly a place in you'd expect a Christian community to be flourishing early in the fifth century on out of the way islands). Furthermore look at the remarkable stone evidence found 1905 that gave rise to our knowledge about the Christianization of this place (inscribed standing stones)? Look for Gardner, Keith S. - 'Lundy, An Archaeological Field Guide (Landmark Trust)' or Charles Thomas’ ‘And Shall These Mute Stones Speak?’,University of Wales, ISBN 0-7083-1160-1.
There is increasing evidence in looking at changing British Burial practices pre-third century, that Christianity was having an effect on belief. This evidence reasonably would be an earlier indicator of change in belief, before the secular cultural record would (which I assume you spend the bulk of your time looking at). To look at ancient British burial practices, check out the ancient sub-Roman cemeteries that have been recently excavated in Brean Down, Ancaster, Poundbury, Shepton Mallet, and Cannington. All of these sites show the changing burial practices among the Britons and signal the increasingly wide-spread conversion of these communities to Christianity. Furthermore, they indicated that Christianity was more common in a popular sense, than this article indicates.
You can’t claim that no archaeological evidence exists to support my edit for that depends entirely upon how narrowly you look at the archaeological record. In looking for archaeological evidence of early Christian worship in Britain, you must look beyond coins and crosses. I suppose if you don't believe Christianity came to Britain before Rome you won't bother looking for evidence, and if you happen across such evidence, would tend to discard it outright despite its implication.
I agree with Diocletian that we should not uncritically accept all that Gildas wrote, however though he should not be read uncritically, we cannot simply ignore those sources we do not like or think highly of. If my edit were entirely based upon what Gildas wrote, you would be quite right to remove it, however the evidence is far greater than that, so lets re-examine Gildas’ claim. The only native sources of information about the sub-Roman Britain accounts of these centuries come from Gildas and Patrick, and so we could throw out everything that Gildas says as Mark O'Sullivan suggest, but then we damn ourselves to knowing nothing about the period at all. Gildas does state that Christianity came to Britain in the last years of Tiberius ('rigenti insulae...tempore Tiberii...radios suos indulget Christus' ch 8), you can disbelieve his claim if you wish despite the evidence to the contrary.
Yes of course, there is a small camp of scholars who say 'was it really Gildas who wrote that' or 'can we believe Gildas', however is Gildas is unreliable because of this assertion? If you happen to believe that Christianity came to Britain much later, than yes. If however Christianity came to Britain the same time it came to Rome, than that statement is not unreliable. Regardless, neither Gildas nor Patrick were ‘trying’ to write histories, however that does not invalidate our use of their work.
Regarding adamsan's comment to check out a summary of my reasoning about these issues see the Talk:Caratacus page. I quite agree, you should check out my reasoning there, so you can see how much of a nut I am (for not accepting perfectly acceptable orthodox scholarship). Saving you the effort, I’ll admit up front that;
20th Century scholars have been the ones to formulate the counter argument that Rome brought with it Christianity, however 20th Century scholars also show a shocking lack of familiarity with ancient texts, the material record, and almost a complete reliance on secondary or tertiary sources. (How can you write about history, when you restrict your research almost completely, to the views of others who themselves are writing about history? Someone at sometime has to be looking at the evidence first hand.)
Other considerations when looking at this are;
Many modern secondary sources looking Christianity’s ingress into the British Isles seem to adopt the rather boring and somewhat plebian ‘party line’ that blames the Romans for Christianity being in Britain in the first place. This may or may not be true, but certainly looking at primary sources, one can see why many have made this argument (Christianity was certainly making ingress into the Roman Empire at the same time – why not?)
I agree that;
I do not agree that;
Put this business in its own article? I don't mind either way, but it should be at least referenced in this one, because Rome's part in Britain did influence latter British belief, and as you know, there is a body of scholars that refuse to abandon the idea that the only relationship between Christianity and Britain is Rome.
-- WikiRat 23:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Part of my point is that attacking a single argument does not invalidate the whole argument, as the evidence is beyond simply one or two antiquated references. Another aspect that I tried to argue is that it has been pretty much until the Reformation that the role of the early Celtic Christians was recognized, and that after the reformation this started to change. Feel free to check out my revisions to Celtic Christianity where I have flushed out the literary evidence more thoroughly - mostly provided by Latin references. -- WikiRat 19:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
You'll want to re-read that - the reference to St Martins shows that churches existed before Saint Augustine, which he referenced himself in his letters to Pope Gregory I (Epistolae ad Gregorium Papam). If the contention is that Christianity was common before Saint Augustine, and Saint Augustine himself references the existance of Churches than the question remains, how early was Christianity in Britain. Again, I recommend you check out Celtic_Christianity to see more on that question.
There seems to be some debate over the extent of Roman influence in Britain and I thought we could discuss it here. I find the current claim that only the southern two thirds of the island were under Roman control to be at best simplistic.
The historically attested physical Roman presence as far north as Moray at its greatest extent suggests that more than two thirds of the island was under their control for some of the occupation. Of course the Orcadians went so far as to send supplicants all the way down to Kent to surrender to Claudius in 43BC and as the article states the northern tribes were under de jure if not de facto submission for a considerable period.
This article attempts to cover Roman Britain and the existing introduction implies that northern Britain was entirely independent for the entire Roman period. We may argue that the far north (one sixth?) of the island never saw Roman occupation but even there the evidence of trade and cultural contacts suggests a strong degree of Romanisation. As a result, I find the existing definition to be incorrect and based on a misunderstanding of the period. adamsan 19:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The Legacy
The article asserts that Britain is the largest part of Europe which the Romans ruled in which neither a Latin-based language nor the speech of a pre-Roman population survived. That needs two qualifications: first, that some Celtic speech existed in England long after the Anglo-Saxon conquest that transformned the Celtic-Roman Britain into the Germanic England. Ignoring Wales, there was Cumberland, where Celtic speech lingered into the middle ages, and there is Cornwall, where a Celtic language became effectively extinct only in early-modern times. How long Celtic speech lingered in counties bordering Wales is a matter of conjecture. If Welsh is heavily laden with words of Latin origin, then so is English.
Also, there perhaps may be confusion between the ancient and modern use of the word "Britain" In modern times the phrase is used, perhaps erroneously, to cover the entire United Kingdom. If this is assumed to be correct, then Scotland certainly still speaks a language descended from the pre-Roman inhabitants, namely Scottish Gaelic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.141.81 ( talk) 14:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Second, another region in Europe clearly fits that description as a place where neither a pre-Roman speech not a Romance language survived: the arc of lands including the entier Rhine and Danube valleys (except for Romania and - questionably Alsace-Lorraine) where Germanic and Slavonic languages (Dutch, German, Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Makedonian, and Bulgarian) and Hungarian prevail. If one looks at the parts of the former Yugoslavia that were under Roman rule, that is a territory rivaling England in size; if one adds Bulgaria to the same parts of the former Yugoslavia, one has a region decidedly larger than Roman Britain.-- 66.231.41.57 04:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Romanians descend from tribes in the southern parts of the Balkans and started to move into the territory of the former Roman province called Dacia in the early Middle Ages. So there's no continuity there. 82.33.107.222 ( talk)
Terminology
I would be very careful using the term "Romanisation" as it applies to Britain (or any province really) as they are unstable terms within the scholarly world, and thus, very much debated and under constant review and possibly subject to radical reinterpretation (as the idea has already undergone in the last 70 years). For references see e.g. Woolf "Beyond Romans and Natives" or Webster's article on "Creolization" either of which can be searched for in JSTOR.
Other terms I would be very careful about are "Borders" and "Frontiers", especially when talking about the Hadrian or Antonine "walls". Romans didn't even have a word for those things ('Fines' and 'Limes' are not direct equivalents for our concepts of the "Frontier"). Again, definitions here are undergoing change in the scholarly sphere as thinking about them gains sophistication. For example see Whittaker's 2005 book on the Roman Frontier.
GermanicusCaesar ( talk) 22:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article Roman conquest of Britain, Octavian (Augustus) threatened to invade Britain, but called off his invasions when the Britons "came to terms". The same article states "According to Augustus's Res Gestae, two British kings, Dumnovellaunus and Tincomarus, sent supplications to Rome during his reign, and Strabo's Geography, written during this period, says that Britain paid more in customs and duties than could be raised by taxation if the island were conquered."
This has the ring of truth, and it is at odds with this article's statement that after Julius Caesar's invasion, "The British tribes were not to hear from Rome again until Claudius's permenant invasion and occupation centuries later." Also, the timespan between Caesar's invasion (54 B.C.) and the conquest (47 A.D.) is just 101 years. Consequently, I have just changed this to read "The British tribes remained independent of Rome until Claudius' permanent conquest and occupation a century later." Marco polo 02:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Compare the size of Roman Greece to Roman Britain articles. How ridiculous, did Britain contribute anything to the Empire? Not really. Yet Greece was the basis of what is referred to as Classical Roman Culture.
I disagree
a)is not important the size of the article, but the quality
b)even the walls know that the Roman province of Britannia was not exactly the most important province of the empire,but the Roman presence in Britain should not be underestimated ,for a lot of reasons: it is part of your history,it is part of what you are today (did you know approximately 20 25% of English words come directly from the Latin?,do you think that words like castle (from castrum) fortification (from fortificatio) and other 1000 and 1000 words come from the Japanese?) and at the end If is not the English Wikipedia to underline the Roman presence in Britain who has to do it? Portuguese Wikipedia maybe? -- Altro21 ( talk) 14:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence "Julius Caesar describes the Britons as being descended from the Belgae, a Germanic people ([De Bello Gallico]] v.xii and ii.iv)" from the "Sub-Roman Britain" section partly because it doesn't belong there, and partly because it's plain wrong. Caesar does not say the Britons were descended from the Belgae. He said in relatively recent times there had been some Belgic settlement in Britain. It's also wrong to say the Belgae were unequivocally "Germanic". "Germanic" is a linguistic classification, and all the evidence shows the language of the Belgae in Gaul and Britain was Celtic. -- Nicknack009 08:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I don't mind you taking it out. But if you read the parts I referenced in Caesar, you'll see that he actually does say that the inhabitants are Belgae. Notice that he tells us that who he supposes the aboriginals to be live further inland. So, he tells us there are Belgae and aboriginals, and the Belgae inhabit the South and coastal areas. The Belgae he says come from Germany originally. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the inhabitants of England spoke a Celtic tongue. Please look for such a reference in classical literature or in epigraphy. You won't find one, because there isn't one. That the ancient Britons spoke Celtic in what is now England is just a nice story, that's all. Kozushi 22:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
-- Nicknack009 07:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)40 Debbie Pearl 1 ( talk) 07:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)It' interesting that modern Welsh is very close to Hebrew, different only in the pronounciation of some words.
The following fact should be removed as it appears to be based upon an error made by the scholar who first attempted to translate this tablet: "A letter found in Bath, datable to ca. 363, written in Wroxeter by a Christian man called Vinisius, warns a Christian women called Nigra of the arrival of Bilonicus, describing him as a canem Arii, an 'Arian dog', indicating that the struggle between orthodoxy and heresy was present in Britain as elsewhere in the empire."
The footnote provided following this item in the article leads to a paper that says the entire story about Vinisius, Nigra, and Bilonicus was a mistake perpetuated by an over zealous scholar who attempted to read the tablet upsidedown. Tomlin, R. S. O. (1994). "Vinisius to Nigra: Evidence from Oxford of Christianity in Roman Britain" (PDF). Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 100: 93-108. Retrieved on December 13, 2006. Here is a link to the document above: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/1994/100pdf/100093.pdf
-- Jjhake ( talk) 22:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since the name of this province of Rome was Britannia, shouldn't " Britannia" redirect here?? The personification should have an article as Britannia (goddess) IMO. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 19:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The translation of Noviomagus as 'New Market' by an editor of this page is currently inconsistent with the translation 'new field' on the
Noviomagus_Reg page itself and also with the article on the meaning of word
magus (in brief: astrologer; astronomer; magician (derog.); trickster).
I have placed -fact- tags on both editors offerings, for the time being.
The fact that Nijmegen is Dutch for 'new market' (if so) is not disputed (by me) at this point but it's as if it is being offered to support a theory which isn't strong enough in its own right (whilst lacking a citation) and, other than in that role, it is not relevant to the main article and should be removed.
As an additional complication, at the moment there is a redirect from Noviomagus Regnorum to Noviomagus Reginorum but I will restrict all discussion about that to the
Talk:Noviomagus_Reginorum page.
EatYerGreens (
talk)
12:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, i m sorry for my english , i ll try to explain from where come from Noviomagus. NOVUS or NOVI (NEW) ACTUS ( this word com from verb AGO and it has a plurality of meanings ,ie here it means trade,exchange, or exchanges,trades).. Novus/Novi Actus ,Noviomagus it could be a successive transformation or a misspelling/mispronunciation . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Without23 ( talk) 20:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
I've corrected this section and provided some decent sources ('snails' and 'nettles' was simply wrong, as they were in Britain before the Romans, it was only specific species that they introduced). But this still needs enlarging, eg Roman engineering made changes, farming made changes, etc. Dougweller ( talk) 09:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
In the article it says "former senator" in the provincial gov. section. In ancient Rome becoming a senator was for life unless kicked out, and that would probably not be the kind of man governing the province of Britain... I would suggest checking on what a governor's past credentials would be. K2mac ( talk) 05:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
But to preach to all the Name of Jesus, to teach about His marvellous deeds in country and town, that some of them should take possession of the Roman Empire, and the Queen of Cities itself, and others the Persian, others the Armenian, that others should go to the Parthian race, and yet others to the Scythian, that some already should have reached the very ends of the world, should have reached the land of the Indians, and some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain, all this I for my part will not admit to be the work of mere men, far less of poor and ignorant men, certainly not of deceivers and wizards. Eusebius of Caesarea, Demonstratio Evangelica (before 311 AD), Book 3, Chapter 5 AJRG ( talk) 20:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Meanwhile these islands, stiff with cold and frost, and in a distant region of the world, remote from the visible sun, received the beams of light, that is, the holy precepts of Christ, the true Sun, showing to the whole world his splendour, not only from the temporal firmament, but from the height of heaven, which surpasses every thing temporal, at the latter part, as we know, of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, by whom his religion was propagated without impediment, and death threatened to those who interfered with Its professors. Gildas (c.504-570) De Excidio Britanniae, Chapter 8 AJRG ( talk) 21:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
...and how do you intend the above quotes to be of use to the article? Nev1 ( talk) 22:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The BBC programme In Our Time presented by Melvyn Bragg has an episode which may be about this subject (if not moving this note to the appropriate talk page earns cookies). You can add it to "External links" by pasting * {{In Our Time|Roman Britain|p00548xn}}. Rich Farmbrough, 03:20, 16 September 2010 (UTC).
I need help, I deleted some stuff by accident. How do I change it back? -Eladynnus
Could you please explain the reasons for removal rather than simply removing it? It was unclear from the edit summary.-- SabreBD ( talk) 21:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that it makes little sense to place "AD" after the date. "AD" means Anno Domini, "In the year of our Lord." If we're going to use "B.C." and "AD," then respect what the term means. To say, "2011 in the year of our Lord" makes no sense; it does make sense to reverse it. The fact that it happens frequently doesn't really change the fact that it doesn't make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinFox ( talk • contribs) 02:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
OK, to John, I would say, isn't Wikipedia supposed to be scholarly? MartinFox ( talk) 00:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
And to SabreBD, I would say, if AD can go before, or after, than why was I deemed wrong to make it consistent? (In one article I put them all before.) Also can the WP:ERA not be questioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinFox ( talk • contribs) 00:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I chose to change the language from "the region" to "the former Roman province," as A Scotland was never really under Roman rule and B Scots Gaelic is also a living minority language similar to Welsh. The fact that the name of the former Roman province eventually became the name of the geographic island does admittedly invite confusion. Chris-Gilmore77 ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
In the lead is this sentence: "In 40 AD, Caligula assembled 200,000 men at the Channel, only to have them gather seashells." Is this literally true, or just a metaphor for doing nothing? Either way, it should be mentioned and explained in the rest of the article. It was added in a February 2015 edit by LlywelynII. -- Usernameunique ( talk) 23:07, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
My edit describing the area of Roman Britain has been reverted, but I think it was correct. My version was "It comprised almost all of England and Wales and, for a short period, southern Scotland." Laurel Lodged changed it to "It comprised all of England, the majority of Wales and, for a short period, the southern half of Scotland." Every part of this is wrong. All of England was not under Roman rule (except during the short period of the Antonine Wall) as Hadrian's Wall runs wholly through England, and it is 68 miles south of the border at the eastern end. According to maps of Roman Britain and History of Wales, the whole of Wales was part of Roman Britain. It is also not correct that the southern half of Scotland was under Roman rule as the area between the Scottish border and the Antonine Wall is much less than half the area never ruled by Rome. I will revert unless someone shows I am wrong. Dudley Miles ( talk) 10:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Speedy moved per WP:BRD. Anyone who wishes to move the page away from the long-term status quo may start a new RM. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Province of Britain → Roman Britain – The name has been changed without discussion. Such a major change should not be made without consensus, and I strongly disagree with it. The new name will mean nothing to the great majority of readers. Books on the province are almost always titled with some variation on "Roman Britian" and we should follow commono usage. Dudley Miles ( talk) 13:39, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Florian Blaschke reverted my deletion of text and image relating to King Arthur and changed the text to
I do not think this is satisfactory. The statement that the historicity of Arthur is rejected is unreferenced, and Morris is not a reliable source. I suggest
The image of Arthur should be deleted.
Dudley Miles ( talk) 13:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
I just wonder if there is any evidence of a public feeling of being occupied like in 275 AD. Also - Great Britain never returned to be what it was before the occupation. It was an occupation to begin with. But after a couple of generations, very few (if any) knew how it had been 150 years earlier. 83.250.73.248 ( talk) 08:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Should this not be called Britannia? For the province to be referred to in English then the capitals to be referred to in Latin is rather inconsistent. Faren29 ( talk) 12:04, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
This wording implies it is immenient that English no longer remains the official language of Britian. A strange sentence and out of character with the rest of the page. 82.132.187.200 ( talk) 14:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)