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Today I moved this article to Kalács, after searching Google Books for names of this pastry: bejgli 129 hits, beigli 648 hits, kalacs 807 hits. -- Una Smith ( talk) 01:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
I searched Google Books for "dios" and "makos", and found:
The picture I am getting is that (1) beigli is Yiddish, and a loanword in Hungarian; (2) kalács has more than one meaning in Hungarian (braided sweet bread, nut roll); (3) strucla has the same two meanings; and (4) the English equivalent of one of these meanings is nut roll. So, in short, I propose to merge this article into Nut roll and do what I can to disentangle the interwiki links. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
as far as i can see, we have basically 2 groups in this discussion, namely (1) hungarians, who can't help knowing what kalács and bejgli are (two different things, though some others saying that one usage of the word 'kalács' is just another hungarian word for 'pastry', might have a point) as they live with them day by day, (2) other folks who are left to google searches, hints by hungarian or almost hungarian friends, dictionaries and guessing. i belong to group (1), so i find it pretty funny to see a page titled KALÁCS with a photo of some BEJGLI (kinda never called KALÁCS, maybe in regions i've never been) linked to a hungarian page titled BEJGLI. if this is a product of merging, then you guys should undo that merging and write a KALÁCS article with the definition and photo of a KALÁCS, which is a spinned and baked bread dough made with milk and a lot of sugar, rather than water and a little sugar, thus sweeter and softer than normal bread. Anapazapa ( talk) 18:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was not done. Skomorokh 11:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Kalács → Bejgli — The move done by previous editor is incorrect, the name Kalács belongs to a different type of cake. — Szirmaik ( talk) 22:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this should be merged into nut roll as this article is about beigli (which is about the same as and nut roll), kalács is an entirely different thing. – Alensha talk 20:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Strongly oppose the merge. The two most common types of beigli (which is what this article is about; never mind that it's erroneously titled "Kalács") are walnut and poppy seed. As poppy seed is not a nut, beigli is not a nut roll.
In addition, merging an article called "kalács" with "nut roll" is just ridiculous. The two things have nothing in common, other than being types of sweet breads. It's like merging coffee and cola because both are drinks. Emika22 ( talk) 14:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
On the other hand, this article is not about kalács, but bejgli, which seems to be the same as not roll (at least the one with nut in it). - Matthew Beta ( talk) 16:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I hope it's all right that I've removed the merge proposal. I don't know if the original proposer is supposed to do that or not, but after 3 months the proposal hasn't gotten too much support, so... Emika22 ( talk) 18:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
...and I'm going to be bold and change it. Here is what I propose:
1. The text of this page, which is well-written and has good sources, should be moved to the page at Bejgli. Currently, this is a disambiguation page leading to this page Kalács and to Hamantash. Hamantash isn't the same thing as bejgli, although it could be mentioned in a "See Also" section as a similar food.
2. A new page should be created describing kalács ("a type of Hungarian sweet bread commonly eaten at Easter..."). Parts of it can be translated from the Hungarian page at Kalács (sütemény). Links should be included to the articles about Kolacz, Kolache, and Kalach, similarly named foods from other Eastern European countries, along with a clear explanation of the similarities and differences.
3. The proposal to merge either the kalács article or the bejgli article with nut roll should be eliminated.
4. The interwiki links should be repaired.
My plan is to make these changes some time in the next few days, but first I'd like some feedback or suggestions. I'm not sure the best way to go about step one, especially in terms of moving the talk page as well. Or if the talk page should be moved, or left. Any ideas?
Emika22 ( talk) 15:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreed :) - Matthew Beta ( talk) 17:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Kalács →
Bejgli — Since the page at
Bejgli already exists, I (as a non-administrator) am unable to move this page there. I request that an admin do so, after which I will follow through with the other changes outlined in the section immediately above. In short, this is an good article, just with the wrong title. Thanks in advance!
Emika22 (
talk)
18:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know about Hungarians, but we commonly call it "makowiec" (because its filled with mak - poppy seeds), and I've never heard anyone call this cake "Bejgli". The only word I can think of that sounds alike is "bajgiel" (see english wiki entry on it ) with is also sort of cake, and might contain poppy seeds, but has nothing to do with makowiec. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.76.108.143 ( talk) 19:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
It was a recent edit by an anonymous account, which I now reverted. vttoth ( talk) 15:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I am not a Hungarian speaker, but my father was from Tatabánya and he used "kalács" for a braided bread, but also called a poppy seed roll "makos kalács". When I used "beigli" - based on a cookbook, he snorted in derision. Clearly "beigli" meant something else, but he never clarified what he thought the difference was. When I made poppy seed roll for friends who came from London's east end they recognised it as "beigli". I don't have any comment about where this should go, but I think we should accept that colloquial usage is not always formal usage and while "kalács" may not be "correct", it isn't exactly "wrong", either. 94.195.93.232 ( talk) 07:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I see that Makowiec (pastry) was merged here. That's fine, pictures make it obvious this is the same cake. However, if you look at the old makowiec article, it claims this is a "traditional Polish, Lithuanian and Croatian cake". This claim was removed during the merger. This is problematic - why should the Hungarians have "primacy" with regards to this cake? No source supports it. Unless references are provided that show that this cake originated in Hungary (or Poland, or somewhere else), I'd suggest we rewrite the lead to indicate it is a Slavic / Eastern European cake. This does not solve the problem of what is the correct name in English... any suggestions? We could go with the generic poppy seed roll which the lead suggests. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I would like to give this entry a generic title Poppy seed roll which is what the article is about. The original entry about Bejgli was created as a short, one-paragraph (483 bytes) stub on 18 August 2008. Since then, it became something entirely different at over 10 times the size (6,398 bytes). See WP:SPADE for guidance. I will wait a bit for your feedback. — Tatry ( talk) 03:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I fully admit that my total knowledge about Makowiec comes from a google image search. But even after that single search, it doesn't really seem like Makowiec and Bejgli are the same thing. Namely because Makowiec seems to come in several varieties, some rolled and others not. I think it deserves its own article. Emika22 ( talk) 11:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Adding... and, I just saw that Makowiec used to be its own article, but it was merged into this one. By the same user who had thought that this page (Beigli) should be called Kalacs. Sigh. What if we just undo the merge, and separate Makowiec again, and someone who knows anything about it could expand it a bit? Emika22 ( talk) 11:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Joy [shallot] ( talk) 01:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Bejgli →
Poppy seed roll – As several editors have pointed out above, this article is about a generic type of a cake. The move towards the Hungarian one was undue (this is unfair towards the other local variants, and it is not the name this type of cake is known to most English speakers, anyway). The move to poppy seed roll is with no prejudice towards eventual split and (re)creation of articles on national varieties, if enough material is collated to warrant such a split.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk to me
16:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
This article requires more information in regards to countries where it is served and the origins of the food.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.237.59.2 ( talk) 16:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Nut_roll#Merge_tag. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 12:24, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Nut rolls are a set of pastries.
Several (well, many but probably not most) of those have walnuts as a filling.
One of these (many recipes, it appears that there is no single recipe that's being riffed on) is also made with a ground poppy seed (or poppy seed) filling that is sweetened (with honey, fruit, it varies.) There are commercial poppy seed fillings that are sometimes used.
A walnut roll made with the same dough as the poppy seed roll is traditionally served with the poppy seed roll; the pair are called in Hungarian (according to A Blessing of Bread, p 148) beiglik (the plural of beigli) and others. This distinguishes this particular kind of walnut roll from other walnut rolls.
Since this particular pair of breads is more commonly known by the rarer poppy seed filling, I think it's appropriate to retain the information about the walnut member of the pair in this article, rather than sending readers off to wander in Nut roll, where this information would become difficult to find.
Hungarian and other bakers please correct me .... htom ( talk) 02:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Today I moved this article to Kalács, after searching Google Books for names of this pastry: bejgli 129 hits, beigli 648 hits, kalacs 807 hits. -- Una Smith ( talk) 01:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
I searched Google Books for "dios" and "makos", and found:
The picture I am getting is that (1) beigli is Yiddish, and a loanword in Hungarian; (2) kalács has more than one meaning in Hungarian (braided sweet bread, nut roll); (3) strucla has the same two meanings; and (4) the English equivalent of one of these meanings is nut roll. So, in short, I propose to merge this article into Nut roll and do what I can to disentangle the interwiki links. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
as far as i can see, we have basically 2 groups in this discussion, namely (1) hungarians, who can't help knowing what kalács and bejgli are (two different things, though some others saying that one usage of the word 'kalács' is just another hungarian word for 'pastry', might have a point) as they live with them day by day, (2) other folks who are left to google searches, hints by hungarian or almost hungarian friends, dictionaries and guessing. i belong to group (1), so i find it pretty funny to see a page titled KALÁCS with a photo of some BEJGLI (kinda never called KALÁCS, maybe in regions i've never been) linked to a hungarian page titled BEJGLI. if this is a product of merging, then you guys should undo that merging and write a KALÁCS article with the definition and photo of a KALÁCS, which is a spinned and baked bread dough made with milk and a lot of sugar, rather than water and a little sugar, thus sweeter and softer than normal bread. Anapazapa ( talk) 18:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was not done. Skomorokh 11:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Kalács → Bejgli — The move done by previous editor is incorrect, the name Kalács belongs to a different type of cake. — Szirmaik ( talk) 22:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this should be merged into nut roll as this article is about beigli (which is about the same as and nut roll), kalács is an entirely different thing. – Alensha talk 20:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Strongly oppose the merge. The two most common types of beigli (which is what this article is about; never mind that it's erroneously titled "Kalács") are walnut and poppy seed. As poppy seed is not a nut, beigli is not a nut roll.
In addition, merging an article called "kalács" with "nut roll" is just ridiculous. The two things have nothing in common, other than being types of sweet breads. It's like merging coffee and cola because both are drinks. Emika22 ( talk) 14:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
On the other hand, this article is not about kalács, but bejgli, which seems to be the same as not roll (at least the one with nut in it). - Matthew Beta ( talk) 16:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I hope it's all right that I've removed the merge proposal. I don't know if the original proposer is supposed to do that or not, but after 3 months the proposal hasn't gotten too much support, so... Emika22 ( talk) 18:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
...and I'm going to be bold and change it. Here is what I propose:
1. The text of this page, which is well-written and has good sources, should be moved to the page at Bejgli. Currently, this is a disambiguation page leading to this page Kalács and to Hamantash. Hamantash isn't the same thing as bejgli, although it could be mentioned in a "See Also" section as a similar food.
2. A new page should be created describing kalács ("a type of Hungarian sweet bread commonly eaten at Easter..."). Parts of it can be translated from the Hungarian page at Kalács (sütemény). Links should be included to the articles about Kolacz, Kolache, and Kalach, similarly named foods from other Eastern European countries, along with a clear explanation of the similarities and differences.
3. The proposal to merge either the kalács article or the bejgli article with nut roll should be eliminated.
4. The interwiki links should be repaired.
My plan is to make these changes some time in the next few days, but first I'd like some feedback or suggestions. I'm not sure the best way to go about step one, especially in terms of moving the talk page as well. Or if the talk page should be moved, or left. Any ideas?
Emika22 ( talk) 15:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreed :) - Matthew Beta ( talk) 17:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Kalács →
Bejgli — Since the page at
Bejgli already exists, I (as a non-administrator) am unable to move this page there. I request that an admin do so, after which I will follow through with the other changes outlined in the section immediately above. In short, this is an good article, just with the wrong title. Thanks in advance!
Emika22 (
talk)
18:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know about Hungarians, but we commonly call it "makowiec" (because its filled with mak - poppy seeds), and I've never heard anyone call this cake "Bejgli". The only word I can think of that sounds alike is "bajgiel" (see english wiki entry on it ) with is also sort of cake, and might contain poppy seeds, but has nothing to do with makowiec. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.76.108.143 ( talk) 19:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
It was a recent edit by an anonymous account, which I now reverted. vttoth ( talk) 15:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I am not a Hungarian speaker, but my father was from Tatabánya and he used "kalács" for a braided bread, but also called a poppy seed roll "makos kalács". When I used "beigli" - based on a cookbook, he snorted in derision. Clearly "beigli" meant something else, but he never clarified what he thought the difference was. When I made poppy seed roll for friends who came from London's east end they recognised it as "beigli". I don't have any comment about where this should go, but I think we should accept that colloquial usage is not always formal usage and while "kalács" may not be "correct", it isn't exactly "wrong", either. 94.195.93.232 ( talk) 07:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I see that Makowiec (pastry) was merged here. That's fine, pictures make it obvious this is the same cake. However, if you look at the old makowiec article, it claims this is a "traditional Polish, Lithuanian and Croatian cake". This claim was removed during the merger. This is problematic - why should the Hungarians have "primacy" with regards to this cake? No source supports it. Unless references are provided that show that this cake originated in Hungary (or Poland, or somewhere else), I'd suggest we rewrite the lead to indicate it is a Slavic / Eastern European cake. This does not solve the problem of what is the correct name in English... any suggestions? We could go with the generic poppy seed roll which the lead suggests. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I would like to give this entry a generic title Poppy seed roll which is what the article is about. The original entry about Bejgli was created as a short, one-paragraph (483 bytes) stub on 18 August 2008. Since then, it became something entirely different at over 10 times the size (6,398 bytes). See WP:SPADE for guidance. I will wait a bit for your feedback. — Tatry ( talk) 03:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I fully admit that my total knowledge about Makowiec comes from a google image search. But even after that single search, it doesn't really seem like Makowiec and Bejgli are the same thing. Namely because Makowiec seems to come in several varieties, some rolled and others not. I think it deserves its own article. Emika22 ( talk) 11:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Adding... and, I just saw that Makowiec used to be its own article, but it was merged into this one. By the same user who had thought that this page (Beigli) should be called Kalacs. Sigh. What if we just undo the merge, and separate Makowiec again, and someone who knows anything about it could expand it a bit? Emika22 ( talk) 11:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Joy [shallot] ( talk) 01:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Bejgli →
Poppy seed roll – As several editors have pointed out above, this article is about a generic type of a cake. The move towards the Hungarian one was undue (this is unfair towards the other local variants, and it is not the name this type of cake is known to most English speakers, anyway). The move to poppy seed roll is with no prejudice towards eventual split and (re)creation of articles on national varieties, if enough material is collated to warrant such a split.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk to me
16:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
This article requires more information in regards to countries where it is served and the origins of the food.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.237.59.2 ( talk) 16:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Nut_roll#Merge_tag. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 12:24, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Nut rolls are a set of pastries.
Several (well, many but probably not most) of those have walnuts as a filling.
One of these (many recipes, it appears that there is no single recipe that's being riffed on) is also made with a ground poppy seed (or poppy seed) filling that is sweetened (with honey, fruit, it varies.) There are commercial poppy seed fillings that are sometimes used.
A walnut roll made with the same dough as the poppy seed roll is traditionally served with the poppy seed roll; the pair are called in Hungarian (according to A Blessing of Bread, p 148) beiglik (the plural of beigli) and others. This distinguishes this particular kind of walnut roll from other walnut rolls.
Since this particular pair of breads is more commonly known by the rarer poppy seed filling, I think it's appropriate to retain the information about the walnut member of the pair in this article, rather than sending readers off to wander in Nut roll, where this information would become difficult to find.
Hungarian and other bakers please correct me .... htom ( talk) 02:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)