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Gameplay section wording
Hello! In the last sentence of the gameplay section it says this, "This makes Pokémon Legends: Arceus the first mainline game to feature starter Pokémon that have previously been starter Pokémon in a different region as starter Pokémon in a different region." The wording is a bit weird here and I'm trying to work out how I could make it make more sense. Any ideas? Cause I had to reread that sentence a few times to understand what it was trying to say. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
change Players can initiate battles by releasing their capture Pokémon near a wild Pokémon. to Players can initiate battles by releasing their captured Pokémon near a wild Pokémon.
The present tense adjective is used when it should be the past tense.
Bxsically (
talk)
01:10, 23 January 2022 (UTC)reply
This article states: "It is part of the eighth generation of the
Pokémon video game series and serves as a prequel to Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (2006), Pokémon Platinum (2008), and
their remakesPokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl (2021)." Can Pokémon Legends: Arceus be considered a prequel to any of the previous games that take in the Sinnoh region even though Pokémon Legends: Arceus does not explain anything that happens in the previous titles or relates to them at all? The only thing that Pokémon Legends: Arceus has in common with the other games that take place in the Sinnoh region, is that enough to justify its status as a prequel just because it takes place in the same location and nothing else?
2600:1009:B044:CD7C:69B3:B054:EF74:BB2E (
talk)
06:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The origins of Team Galactic maybe? But yeah, it’s not really a prequel. It’s a time travel story. To put it in terms of another piece of media, TMNT 2012, Tales of the Yokai (the turtles are sent back in time to the inciting incident of Yoshi and Oroku Saki’s falling out) is not the same as Lone Rat and Cubs (a story set entirely during the early days post-mutation)--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
07:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
So in the article, it mentions that "The Mythical Pokémon Arceus will play a major role in the story" based on information from one year ago. Having actually played and finished the main storyline, Arceus does not even appear at all nor does it feature prominently in the game's story. It only appears in post-game content after some completing some tedious tasks. Is it safe to say we can remove this line altogether? -
PritongKanduleTalk.14:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2022
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Change: "At the start of the game, three starter Pokémon options are available:
Rowlet (the grass-type starter Pokémon from the
Alola region),
Cyndaquil (the fire-type starter Pokémon from the
Johto region) and
Oshawott (the water-type starter Pokémon from the
Unova region)."
to: "At the start of the game, three starter Pokémon options are available:
Rowlet (the Grass-type starter Pokémon from the
Alola region),
Cyndaquil (the Fire-type starter Pokémon from the
Johto region) and
Oshawott (the Water-type starter Pokémon from the
Unova region)."
If you can’t pull up the passage that directly addresses a case like this, the part that actually says Wikipedia policy overrides what is essentially the franchise’s manual of style, how would one know what to look for? There’s a difference between citing policy (what was claimed to have been done) and namedropping policy (what was actually done)--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And I will clarify, I did read MOS:SENTENCECAPS, but none of what I was directed to seemed to actually address it. At least when someone uses NOTAFORUM on a talk page comment, it’s pretty self-evident and explanatory. Here, the policy used is not--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:26, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case and without special stylization such as italics (with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names, italicize non-English words): football pitch, pool cue, queen of diamonds, infield fly rule, triple Lutz, semi-massé, spear tackle).ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk)
18:32, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I’ve also looked at other Pokémon-related pages such as Togepi and List of Pokémon characters. The affected terms are capitalized as they should be. There was no reason to decline this request. Pool cue is never a proper noun. Fire-type is.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
It wasn't my edit request. I've been autoconfirmed for months already. Therefore you reverted me under false pretenses and are going against consensus.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
04:00, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah my bad. For whatever reason I thought you were the one who made this edit request. Regardless, you are still going against consensus since people have clearly said this shouldn't be done with a valid reasoning. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654504:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Well I'm not going to revert you again (I usually go by a 1RR not ending in a ban, just with me not reverting again so that another editor can revert if I am correct and if I'm not the edit will remain) but if another editor reverts you then I would suggest asking them. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654504:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
CreecregofLife I rejected IP request because this goes against
MOS:CAPS in particular
MOS:SENTENCECAPS and/or
MOS:GAMECAPS and also footnote A of
MOS:CAPS#Notes. Unless, you have a valid reason or discussion in other Wikipedia space to show that MOS can be overriden because of "There is no actual evidence it goes against the MOS. The claim was debunked", otherwise, don't revert it as you have done so for more than 3 times. —Paper9oll(
🔔 •
📝)04:31, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
User:Paper9oll So it seems you have not read the discussion that took place, you're not making a case, and your insistence that this is about Wikipedia's manual of style is completely off base. And so is the idea that fulfilling an editor's edit request is unconstructive. I don't know what else to tell you, except maybe read
Gameplay of Pokémon.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
04:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
CreecregofLife I did read the entire discussion above, I agreed with both Blaze Wolf and also ScottishFinnishRadish explanations. I also get what you are referring to, in which
Gameplay of Pokémon is also a problem as it's going against
MOS:CAPS. Hence, if you're insistent on fulfiling the edit request submitted by IP, I recommend you to clarify it at either
WP:TEAHOUSE and/or
WT:MOS on whether MOS can be overriden. —Paper9oll(
🔔 •
📝)04:50, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I may be a little late but I did find the official Pokémon website capitalizing Pokémon type names here:
[1]. Since this is official stylization I think this page should use it, especially because other Pokémon Wikipedia pages use it too, such as this page:
Gameplay of Pokémon.
174.207.98.173 (
talk)
19:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Also, how it is shown on that page is completely different. On that page it is describing each type. If someone thinks it should still be made lowercase then go right ahead. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654520:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"Grass-type", "Water-type", and "Fire-type" are all proper nouns.
MOS:SENTENCECAPS does not apply here because none of the examples listed are ever proper nouns. It's not just game jargon, game jargon would be something like "super effective" or "same-type attack bonus". Those would go in lowercase; the types would not, because they are proper nouns. Some good comparisons are
Laws of the Game (association football), which is a proper noun and so is capitalized in that article and in the
Association football article, and
Test cricket, which is capitalized in that article and the
Cricket article. Unless you're suggesting that those pages are also in violation of the MOS.
Alternatively, if you don't buy that argument, then I submit that we should
deviate from the manual of style here in order to clarify the meaning of the phrases. In the lowercase, those phrases would mean "similar to or having the characteristics of grass/water/fire", which is obviously not what we mean. We are referring specifically to the Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, nearly every other Pokemon-related page on the website puts types in uppercase. At
Pikachu, it says Pikachu were the first "Electric-type" Pokémon created.
Mew (Pokémon) says Mew is a small, pink, Psychic-type Mythical Pokémon.
Mr. Mime says In Pokémon Sword and Shield, Mr. Mime received a Galar-regional form of the Psychic/Ice type. I could go on, but you get the picture. While I did see two exceptions at
List of generation IV Pokémon#Staravia and
List of generation IV Pokémon#Bidoof, those seem to be a typos, as both of those entries have other typos in them as well, and that page has other entries which do capitalize the types. Clearly the prevailing style across the site is to capitalize Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:54, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I know Togepi had Fairy-type and Normal-type capitalized as should be. Heck even Poké Ball was written properly ("Ball" would most certainly have been hit by claims of MOS violation). Shiny Stone? Also properly written.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
02:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Somewhat ironically, I just noticed the sentence The Mythical Pokémon Arceus plays a major role in the story in this article, which is definitely incorrect because "mythical Pokemon" is not a proper noun. That's a good example of when
MOS:SENTENCECAPS actually would apply.
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:22, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Other users have disagreed with the ruling that the MOS doesn't apply in this case, so it's best to see if other users agree with the ruling it doesn't apply. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654502:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This is clearly game jargon and should not be capitalized per the MOS. Reading through all this, I don't even understand the argument as to why the MOS wouldn't apply in this case. --
TorsodogTalk03:12, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"(with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names..." Pokémon types are proper names, proper nouns. I thought you said you read the discussion--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
05:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I told you that I didnt understand your argument and asked you to explain it. I didn't realize that you are incorrectly trying to call an adjective a proper noun. It's not a proper noun because... it's not a noun at all, it's an adjective. So that isn't a valid argument at all. No capitalization. --
TorsodogTalk05:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I said proper names. You are now deliberately misreading what I say in order to call my argument invalid. And proper adjectives do exist, so it wouldn't invalidate my argument. Yes capitalization, and that's final--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
05:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
According to the Pokémon video games, Pokémon types are indeed proper names when referring to that case. For example, the Pokémon ability Overgrow states that it "Powers up Grass-type moves when the Pokémon is in trouble." Thus Pokémon types should be capitalized. I agree with the original request.
(Oinkers42) (
talk)
14:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
These should be lower case.
Alexandra IDV said it best over at WT:VG:
Games capitalize or otherwise stylize Important Gameplay Terms all the time for the sake of clearly communicating with the player that it's an Important Gameplay Term. Wikipedia isn't a video game, though, and "fire", "ghost", "steel", etc, are all regular words used with their usual meanings - I just cannot see a case for capitalizing them.
Those words don't have their usual meanings at all, though. The word "fire" means "the rapid oxidation of a material (the fuel) in the exothermic chemical process of combustion." The term "Fire-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock, but resists Fire, Steel, Fairy, Grass, and Bug." The word "steel" means "an alloy made up of iron with typically a few tenths of a percent of carbon to improve its strength and fracture resistance compared to other forms of iron." The term "Steel-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Fire, Ground, and Fighting, but resists Grass, Bug, Fairy, Rock, Flying, Normal, and probably some other types I'm forgetting, and is immune to Poison." The word "ghost" means "the soul or spirit of a dead person or animal that can appear to the living." The term "Ghost-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Dark and Ghost, but resists Bug and Poison and is immune to Normal and Fighting." These definitions quite literally have no connection to each other at all.
Mlb96 (
talk)
18:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
To clarify what I mean: the flame on Charmander's tail is fire, and one could even say that it is of the fire variety, or in other words, it's fire-type. But it is not Fire-type. Charmander itself is Fire-type. But it is not fire-type, as it does not have any characteristics of fire (aside from being hot, I guess). It can spit fire from it's mouth and has fire on its tail, but it's still a lizard. So it's not fire-type. The use of the word "fire" in "Fire-type" is not merely its ordinary meaning, the phrase "Fire-type" has a distinct meaning which is separate from the real-life concept of fire.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:47, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
By the way, I wanted to look at capitalization in other video game articles to see if the MOS actually reflects the prevailing style on the site, and it turns out that it does not. In almost every single case when a video game capitalizes a term, the Wikipedia article also capitalizes that term. Looking at the first six good article nominees listed in the header at
WT:VG, I found the following:
Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle capitalizes the phrase "Skill Orbs."
The Incredible Hulk (Nintendo DS video game) capitalizes "Gamma Gauge."
Ravenholm capitalizes "Gravity Gun."
Need for Speed: High Stakes capitalizes "Single Race, Hot Pursuit, Tournament, Knockout, and High Stakes."
Metroid: Samus Returns capitalizes "Teleport Stations" and "Grapple Beam, Power Bombs, and Super Missiles" and "Sound Test" and "Fusion Mode."
D.Va capitalizes "Public Test Realm" and "Defense Matrix" and "Micro Missiles." So there are three possibilities here: almost every video game article on the entire website is in violation of the MOS; you all are misinterpreting the MOS; or the MOS does not properly reflect common usage and should be changed. In my opinion, the second possibility is the likeliest, followed by the third, and then the first.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:13, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply And to reiterate my point from earlier that no one responded to, let's not forget how we do this with actual sports:
Association football capitalizes "Laws of the Game" and
Cricket capitalizes "Test." The origin of the phrase "Test match" is because Test matches are "mentally and physically testing." So the term is directly related to the normal, non-proper word "test." Yet despite this connection to the regular word, we still capitalize it. Why? Because in the context of cricket, Test is capitalized. Same thing applies here.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would also say there’s vast misinterpretation, with a bit of cherry-picking. Notice the oft-quoted part of the MOS mentions exceptions, but they leave those off when pointed out they apply, or the pointing out is deliberately misread as has been demonstrated in this very discussion. I find the invocation. It is clear they’re not actually considering the arguments they disagree with.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
19:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I give up. This discussion is going absolutely no where with us just repeating our same arguments and not coming to any conclusion whatsoever. Do what you want to the article. If you get blocked it's not my fault. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:42, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm saying nothing of the sort! I'm getting frustrated because no one is agreeing on anything! Do not twist my words to mean something different than what they actually mean! ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd rather we come to an actual consensus here, but I can see that none of the participants at this page have any intention of changing their minds. Perhaps an RfC is warranted.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:50, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
You don't appear to have triggered any edit filters (besides in your own sandbox). I think it's jsut because you're a new user. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I think you only triggered the edit filter because it seemed like you were trying to game autoconfirmed by making multiple edits to your sandbox. BUt it doesn't seem like that's the case. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654520:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Ars Technica disliked the graphical style and lack of new Pokemon, but felt the battle system and open world exploration mixed well together, "And when the battle is over, you can go right back to exploring or catching other Pokémon, with no pauses for level-ups or learning moves... once you learn the ropes, it's easy to lose yourself in the rhythm of sneaking, catching, battling, and exploring"."
As far as I can tell the statement about the art style isn't accurate to the source. The author does say "the aging Switch hardware sometimes struggles to make it look good" and "The game could look great, but, thanks to the Switch's aging hardware, it mostly just looks fine", but their comments on the "art direction" is actually: "Appealing art direction inspired by Meiji-era Japan". The rest of it is accurate though. Perhaps the "disliked the graphical style" bit can be removed and if necessary replaced with "felt the graphics were constrained by the console's hardware" or similar.
Techhead7890 (
talk)
00:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Protected edit request on 15 February 2022
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The name "Nakatsui take" was added in
this edit and oddly enough the person purposely put it on a separate line. I don't see any real reason as to why though. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:17, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Well then it need to be reverted. Why does it need to be fully protected for one damned week for such a petty capitalisation disagreement... pinging @
El C: to maybe carry out the edit.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
02:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
In the lead, Although a departure compared to the series usual gameplay formula, it should be series's (or series', depending on English variant).
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:19, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
There are some content disputes, yes, but nothing seems to be particularly out of the ordinary for a newly released video game. Feels like extended-confirmed or semi protection would have sufficed.
Juxlos (
talk)
14:26, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
There was some edit warring earlier and extended-confirmed would've been useless since it was between 2 extended-confirmed users, so I requested temporary full protection. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654514:29, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
However I do agree that at this point the full protection can be removed for extended-confirmed or semi-protection since the arguing seems to have died down. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654514:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
RfC: Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences?
CONSENSUS AGAINST CAPITALISATION
Much of the dispute centers around whether the use of caps is acceptable. The relevant guideline seems to be
MOS:GAMECAPS, which states that Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case and without special stylization such as italics (with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names, italicize non-English words): football pitch, pool cue, queen of diamonds [...]; although there are occasional, conventionalized variances. Participants differ on it's implications
On the "yes" side, arguments come in many types. There are many arguments which seem to be based on personal opinion as regards Pokemon jargon (Wikipedia is not written based on the assessments of individual editors, but on independent reliable sources) or some fallacies which border on the non-pertinent (the length of the article would somehow be expanded by not capitalising some letters? really?).
An analysis of sources has been offered by Mlb96, but this has been disputed by multiple other editors (and many editors which otherwise say "Yes, per Mlb96's analysis" do not offer much of a rebuttal), and in any case it is clear that there is a significant amount of sources which do not use consistently use capitalised variants (thus undermining the argument that this would be the kind of conventionalized variance suggested by the guideline, since sources are not consistent about it).
On the "no side", many arguments argue that these are not proper names (one possible reason why these could otherwise be capitalised), and this, combined with the inconclusive sources, the generally stronger arguments provided by those against, and the fact those arguing against are more numerous (even more so when arguments are weighted in terms of policy) leads me to conclude that consensus is against capitalisation. I certainly do not see a consensus for capitalisation.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences (Fire-type, Water-type, Grass-type) or not (fire-type, water-type, grass-type)?
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Survey
Yes for multiple reasons. First of all, Pokemon types have distinct meanings from the words used in them. As an example, the flame on Charmander's tail is fire, and one could even say that it is of the fire variety, or in other words, it's fire-type. But it is not Fire-type. Charmander itself is Fire-type. But it is not fire-type, as it does not have any characteristics of fire (aside from being hot, I guess). It can spit fire from it's mouth and has fire on its tail, but it's still a lizard. So it's not fire-type. The use of the word "fire" in "Fire-type" is not merely its ordinary meaning, the phrase "Fire-type" has a distinct meaning which is separate from the real-life concept of fire.
Additionally, when a video game or real-life sport generally capitalizes a term, the Wikipedia article generally does so as well. The section of the MOS that people keep citing to in opposition to capitalization only applies to words that are not normally capitalized in the context of the game. Every other article on Pokemon that I could find capitalizes types; this page is the only outlier. This applies to other video games as well. For example, Metroid: Samus Returns capitalizes "Teleport Stations", "Grapple Beam", "Power Bombs", "Super Missiles", "Sound Test", and "Fusion Mode". Need for Speed: High Stakes capitalizes "Single Race", "Hot Pursuit", "Tournament", "Knockout", and "High Stakes". I found dozens of examples of this, and can name more if anyone wants more. And this applies even to sports:
Association football capitalizes "Laws of the Game" and
Cricket capitalizes "Test". The latter is an especially useful example, because the origin of the phrase "Test match" is because they are "mentally and physically testing". Yet despite being connected to the normal word "test", we capitalize it anyway, because in the context of cricket, the word Test is capitalized. The same idea applies to Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, and I'd like to add that reliable sources prefer capitalizing Pokemon types by a more than 2-to-1 margin, as I show in the discussion section below. This alone basically requires us to capitalize them in our articles.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:11, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
They are proper nouns in the context of Pokemon, though. The same way that Test is a proper noun in the context of cricket.
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Then could you explain in what way Pokemon types are different from Test matches in cricket? Surely we can't say that the MOS applies one way to one and a different way to the other unless there's an actual difference between them. Fictional or non-fictional is irrelevant; they're both games.
Mlb96 (
talk)
23:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And speaking of
WP:INU, it states there that we should not "describe aspects of the work as if they were real." The primary argument for not capitalizing is that grass, water, and fire are normal words. But they aren't normal words in this context, they describe fictional concepts. Capitalizing them reinforces that it's a fictional concept from a fictional universe; putting them in lowercase suggests a connection to real-life fire, water, and grass. So it seems to me that
WP:INU actually supports capitalizing.
Mlb96 (
talk)
23:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This is fiction. Writing about fiction one way or another will include uses of fictional terms (it can be argued that they're also game mechanic terms). It's not about "perspective". The article is already in real-word perspective.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
They are not proper names in the context of Pokemon. They define classes of Pokemon, types of Pokemon, groups of Pokemon, not globally unique individual entities, right? See the explanation at
proper name. The capitalization argument seems based on
significance here, not the linguistic concept of a proper name. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
05:35, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yet it’s been demonstrated they don’t violate the MOS. You can’t keep making that the default in the face of greater evidence. All evidence points to lowercase being the actual violation--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
20:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
MOS:COMMONNAMES for one. But I'm not interested in debating with someone who resorts to petty incivility when they lack facts to back up their claims. There will be no further response from me. -
Aoidh (
talk)
22:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No and the other Pokémon pages should be fixed to follow suit. While they may be capitalized in game, we are writing outside the game for a general audience and as these types are otherwise all common English words, should follow normal case approaches. --
Masem (
t)
20:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
If hundreds of Pokémon pages have to be “fixed” to follow suit, then maybe it’s not the writing or the pages that’s broken. What’s broken is your interpretation. Normal case approaches means approaching it as it is written normally, which is where it’s capitalized.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
21:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No. This is game's stylization that has no precedent in the real world. Wikipedia is written from neutral general perspective, which means things invented by fictional works do not take precedence over normal grammar. Here, a fictional work is capitalizing something that would not normally be capitalized. Sure, there are exceptions and occasionally reliable sources will "elevate" some term into "spelled this way" territory. But this is hardly such a case. Replicating their stylistic choice does not help in understanding of the topic. —
HELLKNOWZ∣TALK21:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Lmao "dangerous precedent"? You'd think we're discussing the fate of a nation with the catastrophizing language you're using here. It's a children's video game. There is in fact no such thing as precedent on Wikipedia. Only consensus.
Axem Titanium (
talk)
21:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Your assertion is that using "standard English capitalization" is going to create a "dangerous precedent"? Come on. Hyperbole doesn't work when you lay it on that thick.
Sergecross73msg me22:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No Largely per Masem and HELLKNOWZ, and Alexandra's prior reasoning in the discussion above. (Edited 2/19 to add): Mlb96's table claiming that various reliable sources consistently use uppercase as reason we should as well is flawed. The first four sources they claim are consistent, I found lowercase usage examples. They are not at all consistent. --
ferret (
talk)
21:45, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No. The terms use common words and not proper nouns; it's "fire-type", not "Lental-type" or whatever. Also, I'm seeing a lot of "it violates the manual of style" comments that don't actually link to any manual of style guidance; "Other articles seem to capitalize words" is not an MOS, it's just other articles.
MOS:VG, for instance, is silent on this matter, and
MOS:CAPS doesn't exactly cover the video game case, though its section
MOS:GAMECAPS does say that "Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case", which while it refers to physical sports and games could be considered to cover video games as well. --PresN22:12, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This basically says that no proper names in video games should be ackmowledged. “Could be considered” is not “is considered”. What would “ceaseless edge” mean when it replaces “Ceaseless Edge”?--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
22:23, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes.
MOS:GAMECAPS provides for the usage of "occasional, conventionalized variances" from standard English capitalization - that is to say, when specific pieces of sport or game terminology are consistently referred to with nonstandard capitalizations, those nonstandard capitalizations should be followed. Pokemon types are universally capitalized in the in-game materials, and thus fall under the purview of this "conventionalized variances" language. I also second Mlb96's point about the fact that Pokemon types have definitions that overlap - but are not coterminous - with their real-world referents. Many Grass-type Pokemon, for instance, have no connection to grass and are only connected to unrelated types of plant.
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
22:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes. I find Mlb96's explanation at
WT:VG convincing. They are in-universe proper nouns and Mlb96 has provided many other examples at WT:VG of video games that capitalise in-universe names. If "ghost-type" isn't capitalised it may mislead readers to think it is a spirit of a dead Pokemon.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll provide an example,
Final Fantasy VIII, a Featured Article, includes sentences such as: Characters can also junction (equip) these spells onto their statistics—such as Strength, Vitality, and Luck— and They are similar to the Desperation Attacks of Final Fantasy VI. I wouldn't be surprised if someone decapitalise them to make a point. They're capitalised because they're game mechanic terms, same thing with Pokemon types.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:51, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I myself won't make any changes to articles until a consensus in determined. If this RfC is closed with consensus that they shouldn't be capitalized then I will make changes to the affected articles and possibly other articles where this is show similarly. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654523:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes As they represent specific categories of Pokemon rather than simply elements they are aligned with. Saying a Pokemon is a "Fire-type" is different than saying they are a "fire-using Pokemon".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
11:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) No, per my previous post: "Games capitalize or otherwise stylize Important Gameplay Terms all the time for the sake of clearly communicating with the player that it's an Important Gameplay Term. Wikipedia isn't a video game, though, and "fire", "ghost", "steel", etc, are all regular words used with their usual meanings - I just cannot see a case for capitalizing them". I said I wouldn't respond any further, but since an RfC was opened I feel obliged to make this one. (I will be removing this article from my watchlist following this post and will not be reading any further replies).--
AlexandraIDV11:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No as they are not proper nouns. Largely, the "yes" category is using the argument that "Fire-type", "Grass-type", etc. have very specific meanings, and are not necessarily associated with the idea of fire, grass, etc. If this is the case, then we are in
WP:FANCRUFT territory. I, along with likely the rest of the general audience, do not care that "Fire-type" actually means a Pokemon type which is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock, but resists Fire, Steel, Fairy, Grass, and Bug. –
Pbrks(
t •
c)18:48, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
How exactly? It can't be fancruft to include them in general because otherwise a lot of stuff wouldn't make sense because of how integral Pokemon typings are to the game. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No, describing Charmander as a "fire-type Pokémon" would tell the audience that Charmander is a Pokémon that is somehow associated with fire. Describing Charmander as a "Fire-type Pokémon" would aim to tell the audience that Charmander is a Pokémon that is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock... *things that only Pokémon fans care about*. –
Pbrks(
t •
c)19:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That is nonsensical, if we wanted to say that Charmander is associated with fire then we wouldn't use the word "type" at all, we would just call it a "fire Pokemon". The only reason to use the word "type" is if you're referring specifically to Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
21:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No per the analysis of sources by Mlb96, these do not meet the
MOS:CAPS threshold of being consistently capitalized in reliable sources. The caps are clearly not "necessary" within the meaning of our guidelines, so we default to lowercase. Simple.
Dicklyon (
talk)
06:13, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak no, as these are not
proper names and have not been adequately shown to be very consistently capitalized in
WP:independent reliable sources (IRSs). Per
MOS:CAPS, Wikipedia avoids unnecessary use of capital letters, and when the IRSs are not consistent, Wikipedia uses lowercase. And I don't buy the argument that capitalization should be used to indicate a special non-ordinary meaning of a word. If we want to explain that a term is a jargon term and thus has a special in-context meaning, we should introduce it using italics or quote marks, not by capital letters. See
MOS:WORDSASWORDS and
MOS:TERM. The "-type" suffix helps with that as well. To me, that argument for capitalization crosses into
MOS:SIGNIFCAPS territory. However, I've added "Weak", since (per Mlb96) the IRSs that use capital letters appear to outnumber those that don't. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
17:20, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes. Let me give you an example. If you are talking about Cyndaquil, to someone who is not well-versed with Pokémon, calling it a fire starter Pokémon, you might think it was a Pokémon that starts fires. If you capitalize it to be Fire starter Pokémon, it's a little less ambiguous. I mean, capitalized or not, it's ambiguous, but capitalizing it will reduce the ambiguity a little bit. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs06:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes If there is a distinction between "Fire-type" and "fire-type", which Mlb96's comment shows that there is, then yes, for accuracy.
Some1 (
talk)
19:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, as within the Pokémon jargon these are used as proper nouns. You can't replace "Ground-type" with "Earth-type", it is not replaceable with a synonym.
PikavoomTalk07:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I’m not sure that’s the best way to frame it. It should probably be something like "Do Pokémon types violate the MOS?". It’s clear Wikipedia has always capitalized Pokémon types as they should be, capitalized element, lower case T. The claims that it goes against MOS are clearly recent and ignore the Proper name exception detailed in the very excerpt they cite against such.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
20:08, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I just realized that many style and spelling disputes on Wikipedia often follow what reliable sources use, so I decided to search Google News for "pokemon types" and check the first ten results from sources listed as reliable at
WP:WikiProject Video games/Sources. The results are:
USA Today, capitalizes types;
Gamespot, capitalizes types;
GamesRadar+, capitalizes types;
Polygon, does not capitalize types;
CNET, does not capitalize types;
Upcomer, capitalizes types;
Kotaku, does not capitalize types;
USA Today, capitalizes types;
USA Today, capitalizes types; and
Kotaku, capitalizes types. So that's 70% of reliable sources that do capitalize types, and 30% that do not.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Not proving your experiment invalid but, USA Today appeared 3 times and Kotaku appeared 2 times (although interestingly Kotaku is inconsistent according to this brief experiment you did), so that may have skewed things a little. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Actually, I would just completely disregard those Kotaku sources since they don't seem to even be information at all but just games. The others I still wouldn't use in an article but at least they aren't games. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:38, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm aware that most of these wouldn't be usable to cite information in an article. But if you narrow it down to only sources that you could cite in an article, then the sample size would be too small to be useful; nobody who writes about Pokemon is going to be winning a Pulitzer Prize any time soon. My point was that when these outlets mention Pokemon types, they do so in uppercase.
Mlb96 (
talk)
04:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On a per-source basis, here’s what I found: Polygon and CNET consistently use lowercase. Kotaku varies depending on the article. Every other outlet consistently uses uppercase. That includes USA Today, Gamespot, GamesRadar+, IGN, VG247, Upcomer, Dot Esports, Forbes, Gamerant, Screenrant, and TheGamer, just to name a few.
Mlb96 (
talk)
09:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Please stay
WP:CIVIL! I'm seeing a lot of snarky and unprofessional commentary being thrown around, especially some that doesn't contribute anything of importance to this discussion. Remember, we are currently arguing on whether or not to capitalize "fire", so simply shake hands, state your case, and exit.
Panini!🥪01:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Source table. Green sources are reliable, yellow are situational.
Forbes staff articles are generally considered reliable (per
WP:FORBES), but Forbes contributor articles are not (per
WP:FORBESCON). At first glance, the difference between those two types of Forbes sources may not be obvious. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
05:42, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would check to see how many non-VG sources capitalized it (just to ensure there isn't any bias) however that would probably be rather difficult to do since those sources don't really care about video games unless they do something incredibly significant. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:09, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I stopped at this point because I found these examples within the first page of searching "fire-type" and "water-type" with site:whicheversite. Anyone saying Yes based on this source analysis that RSes are consistently uppercase needs to re-evaluate. --
ferret (
talk)
18:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Just pointing out that this discussion before my comment was 23,875 bytes and the article itself is 24,529. Good going guys and girls.
Juxlos (
talk)
01:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't care anymore. Honestly, I've decided over the last day that I don't really care about this website in general anymore, everyone is irrational and the rules are either applied or ignored in a completely arbitrary manner. Just close the RfC early, the consensus is clear.
Mlb96 (
talk)
02:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Whenever the RFC can be closed. I'd prefer if someone not involved in this discussion closed it so that a proper consensus can be determined because I keep seeing good arguments for both options. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:33, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Plot Summary Error
I read the plot summary, and I noticed the article states "the player crafts a special Pokéball capable of capturing the other legendary Pokémon". However, in the game itself, the player's "rival" of sorts is the one who crafts the Origin Ball (Either Rei or Akari, whichever gendered player character wasn't chosen at the beginning of the game). I feel the point should be changed from 'the player' to something else. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Pokelego999 (
talk •
contribs)
02:37, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Aside from the rather long discussion above, are the types of the Pokémon really relevant to the article? Other articles, such as for instance
Pokémon Red and Blue mention the names but not their types. It feels a bit out of place since the information isn't really relevant - a Pokemon fan would know what types they are, a non-fan would not know what a "type" is. I went ahead and removed it. Also, Rowlet is Grass/Flying.
Juxlos (
talk)
13:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I've noticed that this is a common form of vandalism that occurs on this article, and I wonder if added a comment saying to not change the spelling to "Arkoos/Arcoos" would be appropriate, or would that just invoke
WP:BEANS and cause people to do that more? ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654517:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
I think it's just a joke/meme thing, not an honest proposal, so I think BEANS applies. I've re-protected the page though, that might be a better approach.
Sergecross73msg me18:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Alright. I don't think protection was necessary quite yet since this is the first time the article had been vandalized in about a month but if you think it was then that's perfectly fine. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Alright then. Also, you are correct in that it's just a joke/meme thing. It originates from the Youtuber MandJTV. It was a joke he created I think because there was no real official pronunciation of "Arceus" that existed (the pronunciation in official sources such as the games even contradicted each other). ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:56, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
A second Legends game has been announced! And Zygarde's going to be involved! Does anyone think then that Pokémon Legends as a whole will need it's own article as a series?
Visokor (
talk)
14:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
There's a long standing consensus that there's no need for a series article until
at least 3 entries. There's just no purpose to create one sooner, as anything you could write could easily be placed in the first or second game article. So no, we are a ways off from that.
Sergecross73msg me16:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
A fact from Pokémon Legends: Arceus appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 March 2021 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
video games on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Video gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Video gamesTemplate:WikiProject Video gamesvideo game articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pokémon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Pokémon universe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PokémonWikipedia:WikiProject PokémonTemplate:WikiProject PokémonPokémon articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to
participate, please visit the
project page, where you can join the project, participate in
relevant discussions, and see
lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 01:30, July 20, 2024 (
JST,
Reiwa 6) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related articles
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 30 April 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Harlemc 5 (
article contribs).
Gameplay section wording
Hello! In the last sentence of the gameplay section it says this, "This makes Pokémon Legends: Arceus the first mainline game to feature starter Pokémon that have previously been starter Pokémon in a different region as starter Pokémon in a different region." The wording is a bit weird here and I'm trying to work out how I could make it make more sense. Any ideas? Cause I had to reread that sentence a few times to understand what it was trying to say. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
change Players can initiate battles by releasing their capture Pokémon near a wild Pokémon. to Players can initiate battles by releasing their captured Pokémon near a wild Pokémon.
The present tense adjective is used when it should be the past tense.
Bxsically (
talk)
01:10, 23 January 2022 (UTC)reply
This article states: "It is part of the eighth generation of the
Pokémon video game series and serves as a prequel to Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (2006), Pokémon Platinum (2008), and
their remakesPokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl (2021)." Can Pokémon Legends: Arceus be considered a prequel to any of the previous games that take in the Sinnoh region even though Pokémon Legends: Arceus does not explain anything that happens in the previous titles or relates to them at all? The only thing that Pokémon Legends: Arceus has in common with the other games that take place in the Sinnoh region, is that enough to justify its status as a prequel just because it takes place in the same location and nothing else?
2600:1009:B044:CD7C:69B3:B054:EF74:BB2E (
talk)
06:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The origins of Team Galactic maybe? But yeah, it’s not really a prequel. It’s a time travel story. To put it in terms of another piece of media, TMNT 2012, Tales of the Yokai (the turtles are sent back in time to the inciting incident of Yoshi and Oroku Saki’s falling out) is not the same as Lone Rat and Cubs (a story set entirely during the early days post-mutation)--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
07:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
So in the article, it mentions that "The Mythical Pokémon Arceus will play a major role in the story" based on information from one year ago. Having actually played and finished the main storyline, Arceus does not even appear at all nor does it feature prominently in the game's story. It only appears in post-game content after some completing some tedious tasks. Is it safe to say we can remove this line altogether? -
PritongKanduleTalk.14:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2022
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Change: "At the start of the game, three starter Pokémon options are available:
Rowlet (the grass-type starter Pokémon from the
Alola region),
Cyndaquil (the fire-type starter Pokémon from the
Johto region) and
Oshawott (the water-type starter Pokémon from the
Unova region)."
to: "At the start of the game, three starter Pokémon options are available:
Rowlet (the Grass-type starter Pokémon from the
Alola region),
Cyndaquil (the Fire-type starter Pokémon from the
Johto region) and
Oshawott (the Water-type starter Pokémon from the
Unova region)."
If you can’t pull up the passage that directly addresses a case like this, the part that actually says Wikipedia policy overrides what is essentially the franchise’s manual of style, how would one know what to look for? There’s a difference between citing policy (what was claimed to have been done) and namedropping policy (what was actually done)--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And I will clarify, I did read MOS:SENTENCECAPS, but none of what I was directed to seemed to actually address it. At least when someone uses NOTAFORUM on a talk page comment, it’s pretty self-evident and explanatory. Here, the policy used is not--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:26, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case and without special stylization such as italics (with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names, italicize non-English words): football pitch, pool cue, queen of diamonds, infield fly rule, triple Lutz, semi-massé, spear tackle).ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk)
18:32, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I’ve also looked at other Pokémon-related pages such as Togepi and List of Pokémon characters. The affected terms are capitalized as they should be. There was no reason to decline this request. Pool cue is never a proper noun. Fire-type is.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
18:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
It wasn't my edit request. I've been autoconfirmed for months already. Therefore you reverted me under false pretenses and are going against consensus.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
04:00, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah my bad. For whatever reason I thought you were the one who made this edit request. Regardless, you are still going against consensus since people have clearly said this shouldn't be done with a valid reasoning. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654504:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Well I'm not going to revert you again (I usually go by a 1RR not ending in a ban, just with me not reverting again so that another editor can revert if I am correct and if I'm not the edit will remain) but if another editor reverts you then I would suggest asking them. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654504:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
CreecregofLife I rejected IP request because this goes against
MOS:CAPS in particular
MOS:SENTENCECAPS and/or
MOS:GAMECAPS and also footnote A of
MOS:CAPS#Notes. Unless, you have a valid reason or discussion in other Wikipedia space to show that MOS can be overriden because of "There is no actual evidence it goes against the MOS. The claim was debunked", otherwise, don't revert it as you have done so for more than 3 times. —Paper9oll(
🔔 •
📝)04:31, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
User:Paper9oll So it seems you have not read the discussion that took place, you're not making a case, and your insistence that this is about Wikipedia's manual of style is completely off base. And so is the idea that fulfilling an editor's edit request is unconstructive. I don't know what else to tell you, except maybe read
Gameplay of Pokémon.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
04:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
@
CreecregofLife I did read the entire discussion above, I agreed with both Blaze Wolf and also ScottishFinnishRadish explanations. I also get what you are referring to, in which
Gameplay of Pokémon is also a problem as it's going against
MOS:CAPS. Hence, if you're insistent on fulfiling the edit request submitted by IP, I recommend you to clarify it at either
WP:TEAHOUSE and/or
WT:MOS on whether MOS can be overriden. —Paper9oll(
🔔 •
📝)04:50, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I may be a little late but I did find the official Pokémon website capitalizing Pokémon type names here:
[1]. Since this is official stylization I think this page should use it, especially because other Pokémon Wikipedia pages use it too, such as this page:
Gameplay of Pokémon.
174.207.98.173 (
talk)
19:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Also, how it is shown on that page is completely different. On that page it is describing each type. If someone thinks it should still be made lowercase then go right ahead. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654520:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"Grass-type", "Water-type", and "Fire-type" are all proper nouns.
MOS:SENTENCECAPS does not apply here because none of the examples listed are ever proper nouns. It's not just game jargon, game jargon would be something like "super effective" or "same-type attack bonus". Those would go in lowercase; the types would not, because they are proper nouns. Some good comparisons are
Laws of the Game (association football), which is a proper noun and so is capitalized in that article and in the
Association football article, and
Test cricket, which is capitalized in that article and the
Cricket article. Unless you're suggesting that those pages are also in violation of the MOS.
Alternatively, if you don't buy that argument, then I submit that we should
deviate from the manual of style here in order to clarify the meaning of the phrases. In the lowercase, those phrases would mean "similar to or having the characteristics of grass/water/fire", which is obviously not what we mean. We are referring specifically to the Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, nearly every other Pokemon-related page on the website puts types in uppercase. At
Pikachu, it says Pikachu were the first "Electric-type" Pokémon created.
Mew (Pokémon) says Mew is a small, pink, Psychic-type Mythical Pokémon.
Mr. Mime says In Pokémon Sword and Shield, Mr. Mime received a Galar-regional form of the Psychic/Ice type. I could go on, but you get the picture. While I did see two exceptions at
List of generation IV Pokémon#Staravia and
List of generation IV Pokémon#Bidoof, those seem to be a typos, as both of those entries have other typos in them as well, and that page has other entries which do capitalize the types. Clearly the prevailing style across the site is to capitalize Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:54, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I know Togepi had Fairy-type and Normal-type capitalized as should be. Heck even Poké Ball was written properly ("Ball" would most certainly have been hit by claims of MOS violation). Shiny Stone? Also properly written.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
02:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Somewhat ironically, I just noticed the sentence The Mythical Pokémon Arceus plays a major role in the story in this article, which is definitely incorrect because "mythical Pokemon" is not a proper noun. That's a good example of when
MOS:SENTENCECAPS actually would apply.
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:22, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Other users have disagreed with the ruling that the MOS doesn't apply in this case, so it's best to see if other users agree with the ruling it doesn't apply. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654502:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This is clearly game jargon and should not be capitalized per the MOS. Reading through all this, I don't even understand the argument as to why the MOS wouldn't apply in this case. --
TorsodogTalk03:12, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"(with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names..." Pokémon types are proper names, proper nouns. I thought you said you read the discussion--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
05:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I told you that I didnt understand your argument and asked you to explain it. I didn't realize that you are incorrectly trying to call an adjective a proper noun. It's not a proper noun because... it's not a noun at all, it's an adjective. So that isn't a valid argument at all. No capitalization. --
TorsodogTalk05:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I said proper names. You are now deliberately misreading what I say in order to call my argument invalid. And proper adjectives do exist, so it wouldn't invalidate my argument. Yes capitalization, and that's final--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
05:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
According to the Pokémon video games, Pokémon types are indeed proper names when referring to that case. For example, the Pokémon ability Overgrow states that it "Powers up Grass-type moves when the Pokémon is in trouble." Thus Pokémon types should be capitalized. I agree with the original request.
(Oinkers42) (
talk)
14:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
These should be lower case.
Alexandra IDV said it best over at WT:VG:
Games capitalize or otherwise stylize Important Gameplay Terms all the time for the sake of clearly communicating with the player that it's an Important Gameplay Term. Wikipedia isn't a video game, though, and "fire", "ghost", "steel", etc, are all regular words used with their usual meanings - I just cannot see a case for capitalizing them.
Those words don't have their usual meanings at all, though. The word "fire" means "the rapid oxidation of a material (the fuel) in the exothermic chemical process of combustion." The term "Fire-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock, but resists Fire, Steel, Fairy, Grass, and Bug." The word "steel" means "an alloy made up of iron with typically a few tenths of a percent of carbon to improve its strength and fracture resistance compared to other forms of iron." The term "Steel-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Fire, Ground, and Fighting, but resists Grass, Bug, Fairy, Rock, Flying, Normal, and probably some other types I'm forgetting, and is immune to Poison." The word "ghost" means "the soul or spirit of a dead person or animal that can appear to the living." The term "Ghost-type" means "a Pokemon type which is weak to Dark and Ghost, but resists Bug and Poison and is immune to Normal and Fighting." These definitions quite literally have no connection to each other at all.
Mlb96 (
talk)
18:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
To clarify what I mean: the flame on Charmander's tail is fire, and one could even say that it is of the fire variety, or in other words, it's fire-type. But it is not Fire-type. Charmander itself is Fire-type. But it is not fire-type, as it does not have any characteristics of fire (aside from being hot, I guess). It can spit fire from it's mouth and has fire on its tail, but it's still a lizard. So it's not fire-type. The use of the word "fire" in "Fire-type" is not merely its ordinary meaning, the phrase "Fire-type" has a distinct meaning which is separate from the real-life concept of fire.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:47, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
By the way, I wanted to look at capitalization in other video game articles to see if the MOS actually reflects the prevailing style on the site, and it turns out that it does not. In almost every single case when a video game capitalizes a term, the Wikipedia article also capitalizes that term. Looking at the first six good article nominees listed in the header at
WT:VG, I found the following:
Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle capitalizes the phrase "Skill Orbs."
The Incredible Hulk (Nintendo DS video game) capitalizes "Gamma Gauge."
Ravenholm capitalizes "Gravity Gun."
Need for Speed: High Stakes capitalizes "Single Race, Hot Pursuit, Tournament, Knockout, and High Stakes."
Metroid: Samus Returns capitalizes "Teleport Stations" and "Grapple Beam, Power Bombs, and Super Missiles" and "Sound Test" and "Fusion Mode."
D.Va capitalizes "Public Test Realm" and "Defense Matrix" and "Micro Missiles." So there are three possibilities here: almost every video game article on the entire website is in violation of the MOS; you all are misinterpreting the MOS; or the MOS does not properly reflect common usage and should be changed. In my opinion, the second possibility is the likeliest, followed by the third, and then the first.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:13, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply And to reiterate my point from earlier that no one responded to, let's not forget how we do this with actual sports:
Association football capitalizes "Laws of the Game" and
Cricket capitalizes "Test." The origin of the phrase "Test match" is because Test matches are "mentally and physically testing." So the term is directly related to the normal, non-proper word "test." Yet despite this connection to the regular word, we still capitalize it. Why? Because in the context of cricket, Test is capitalized. Same thing applies here.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would also say there’s vast misinterpretation, with a bit of cherry-picking. Notice the oft-quoted part of the MOS mentions exceptions, but they leave those off when pointed out they apply, or the pointing out is deliberately misread as has been demonstrated in this very discussion. I find the invocation. It is clear they’re not actually considering the arguments they disagree with.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
19:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I give up. This discussion is going absolutely no where with us just repeating our same arguments and not coming to any conclusion whatsoever. Do what you want to the article. If you get blocked it's not my fault. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:42, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm saying nothing of the sort! I'm getting frustrated because no one is agreeing on anything! Do not twist my words to mean something different than what they actually mean! ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd rather we come to an actual consensus here, but I can see that none of the participants at this page have any intention of changing their minds. Perhaps an RfC is warranted.
Mlb96 (
talk)
19:50, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
You don't appear to have triggered any edit filters (besides in your own sandbox). I think it's jsut because you're a new user. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I think you only triggered the edit filter because it seemed like you were trying to game autoconfirmed by making multiple edits to your sandbox. BUt it doesn't seem like that's the case. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654520:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Ars Technica disliked the graphical style and lack of new Pokemon, but felt the battle system and open world exploration mixed well together, "And when the battle is over, you can go right back to exploring or catching other Pokémon, with no pauses for level-ups or learning moves... once you learn the ropes, it's easy to lose yourself in the rhythm of sneaking, catching, battling, and exploring"."
As far as I can tell the statement about the art style isn't accurate to the source. The author does say "the aging Switch hardware sometimes struggles to make it look good" and "The game could look great, but, thanks to the Switch's aging hardware, it mostly just looks fine", but their comments on the "art direction" is actually: "Appealing art direction inspired by Meiji-era Japan". The rest of it is accurate though. Perhaps the "disliked the graphical style" bit can be removed and if necessary replaced with "felt the graphics were constrained by the console's hardware" or similar.
Techhead7890 (
talk)
00:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Protected edit request on 15 February 2022
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The name "Nakatsui take" was added in
this edit and oddly enough the person purposely put it on a separate line. I don't see any real reason as to why though. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:17, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Well then it need to be reverted. Why does it need to be fully protected for one damned week for such a petty capitalisation disagreement... pinging @
El C: to maybe carry out the edit.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
02:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
In the lead, Although a departure compared to the series usual gameplay formula, it should be series's (or series', depending on English variant).
Mlb96 (
talk)
22:19, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
There are some content disputes, yes, but nothing seems to be particularly out of the ordinary for a newly released video game. Feels like extended-confirmed or semi protection would have sufficed.
Juxlos (
talk)
14:26, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
There was some edit warring earlier and extended-confirmed would've been useless since it was between 2 extended-confirmed users, so I requested temporary full protection. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654514:29, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
However I do agree that at this point the full protection can be removed for extended-confirmed or semi-protection since the arguing seems to have died down. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654514:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
RfC: Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences?
CONSENSUS AGAINST CAPITALISATION
Much of the dispute centers around whether the use of caps is acceptable. The relevant guideline seems to be
MOS:GAMECAPS, which states that Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case and without special stylization such as italics (with the standard exceptions, e.g. capitalize proper names, italicize non-English words): football pitch, pool cue, queen of diamonds [...]; although there are occasional, conventionalized variances. Participants differ on it's implications
On the "yes" side, arguments come in many types. There are many arguments which seem to be based on personal opinion as regards Pokemon jargon (Wikipedia is not written based on the assessments of individual editors, but on independent reliable sources) or some fallacies which border on the non-pertinent (the length of the article would somehow be expanded by not capitalising some letters? really?).
An analysis of sources has been offered by Mlb96, but this has been disputed by multiple other editors (and many editors which otherwise say "Yes, per Mlb96's analysis" do not offer much of a rebuttal), and in any case it is clear that there is a significant amount of sources which do not use consistently use capitalised variants (thus undermining the argument that this would be the kind of conventionalized variance suggested by the guideline, since sources are not consistent about it).
On the "no side", many arguments argue that these are not proper names (one possible reason why these could otherwise be capitalised), and this, combined with the inconclusive sources, the generally stronger arguments provided by those against, and the fact those arguing against are more numerous (even more so when arguments are weighted in terms of policy) leads me to conclude that consensus is against capitalisation. I certainly do not see a consensus for capitalisation.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Pokémon types be capitalized in sentences (Fire-type, Water-type, Grass-type) or not (fire-type, water-type, grass-type)?
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Survey
Yes for multiple reasons. First of all, Pokemon types have distinct meanings from the words used in them. As an example, the flame on Charmander's tail is fire, and one could even say that it is of the fire variety, or in other words, it's fire-type. But it is not Fire-type. Charmander itself is Fire-type. But it is not fire-type, as it does not have any characteristics of fire (aside from being hot, I guess). It can spit fire from it's mouth and has fire on its tail, but it's still a lizard. So it's not fire-type. The use of the word "fire" in "Fire-type" is not merely its ordinary meaning, the phrase "Fire-type" has a distinct meaning which is separate from the real-life concept of fire.
Additionally, when a video game or real-life sport generally capitalizes a term, the Wikipedia article generally does so as well. The section of the MOS that people keep citing to in opposition to capitalization only applies to words that are not normally capitalized in the context of the game. Every other article on Pokemon that I could find capitalizes types; this page is the only outlier. This applies to other video games as well. For example, Metroid: Samus Returns capitalizes "Teleport Stations", "Grapple Beam", "Power Bombs", "Super Missiles", "Sound Test", and "Fusion Mode". Need for Speed: High Stakes capitalizes "Single Race", "Hot Pursuit", "Tournament", "Knockout", and "High Stakes". I found dozens of examples of this, and can name more if anyone wants more. And this applies even to sports:
Association football capitalizes "Laws of the Game" and
Cricket capitalizes "Test". The latter is an especially useful example, because the origin of the phrase "Test match" is because they are "mentally and physically testing". Yet despite being connected to the normal word "test", we capitalize it anyway, because in the context of cricket, the word Test is capitalized. The same idea applies to Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, and I'd like to add that reliable sources prefer capitalizing Pokemon types by a more than 2-to-1 margin, as I show in the discussion section below. This alone basically requires us to capitalize them in our articles.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:11, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
They are proper nouns in the context of Pokemon, though. The same way that Test is a proper noun in the context of cricket.
Mlb96 (
talk)
20:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Then could you explain in what way Pokemon types are different from Test matches in cricket? Surely we can't say that the MOS applies one way to one and a different way to the other unless there's an actual difference between them. Fictional or non-fictional is irrelevant; they're both games.
Mlb96 (
talk)
23:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And speaking of
WP:INU, it states there that we should not "describe aspects of the work as if they were real." The primary argument for not capitalizing is that grass, water, and fire are normal words. But they aren't normal words in this context, they describe fictional concepts. Capitalizing them reinforces that it's a fictional concept from a fictional universe; putting them in lowercase suggests a connection to real-life fire, water, and grass. So it seems to me that
WP:INU actually supports capitalizing.
Mlb96 (
talk)
23:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This is fiction. Writing about fiction one way or another will include uses of fictional terms (it can be argued that they're also game mechanic terms). It's not about "perspective". The article is already in real-word perspective.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
They are not proper names in the context of Pokemon. They define classes of Pokemon, types of Pokemon, groups of Pokemon, not globally unique individual entities, right? See the explanation at
proper name. The capitalization argument seems based on
significance here, not the linguistic concept of a proper name. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
05:35, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yet it’s been demonstrated they don’t violate the MOS. You can’t keep making that the default in the face of greater evidence. All evidence points to lowercase being the actual violation--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
20:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
MOS:COMMONNAMES for one. But I'm not interested in debating with someone who resorts to petty incivility when they lack facts to back up their claims. There will be no further response from me. -
Aoidh (
talk)
22:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No and the other Pokémon pages should be fixed to follow suit. While they may be capitalized in game, we are writing outside the game for a general audience and as these types are otherwise all common English words, should follow normal case approaches. --
Masem (
t)
20:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
If hundreds of Pokémon pages have to be “fixed” to follow suit, then maybe it’s not the writing or the pages that’s broken. What’s broken is your interpretation. Normal case approaches means approaching it as it is written normally, which is where it’s capitalized.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
21:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No. This is game's stylization that has no precedent in the real world. Wikipedia is written from neutral general perspective, which means things invented by fictional works do not take precedence over normal grammar. Here, a fictional work is capitalizing something that would not normally be capitalized. Sure, there are exceptions and occasionally reliable sources will "elevate" some term into "spelled this way" territory. But this is hardly such a case. Replicating their stylistic choice does not help in understanding of the topic. —
HELLKNOWZ∣TALK21:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Lmao "dangerous precedent"? You'd think we're discussing the fate of a nation with the catastrophizing language you're using here. It's a children's video game. There is in fact no such thing as precedent on Wikipedia. Only consensus.
Axem Titanium (
talk)
21:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Your assertion is that using "standard English capitalization" is going to create a "dangerous precedent"? Come on. Hyperbole doesn't work when you lay it on that thick.
Sergecross73msg me22:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No Largely per Masem and HELLKNOWZ, and Alexandra's prior reasoning in the discussion above. (Edited 2/19 to add): Mlb96's table claiming that various reliable sources consistently use uppercase as reason we should as well is flawed. The first four sources they claim are consistent, I found lowercase usage examples. They are not at all consistent. --
ferret (
talk)
21:45, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No. The terms use common words and not proper nouns; it's "fire-type", not "Lental-type" or whatever. Also, I'm seeing a lot of "it violates the manual of style" comments that don't actually link to any manual of style guidance; "Other articles seem to capitalize words" is not an MOS, it's just other articles.
MOS:VG, for instance, is silent on this matter, and
MOS:CAPS doesn't exactly cover the video game case, though its section
MOS:GAMECAPS does say that "Likewise, venue types, sports equipment, game pieces, rules, moves, techniques, jargon, and other terms relating to sports, games, and activities are given in lower case", which while it refers to physical sports and games could be considered to cover video games as well. --PresN22:12, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
This basically says that no proper names in video games should be ackmowledged. “Could be considered” is not “is considered”. What would “ceaseless edge” mean when it replaces “Ceaseless Edge”?--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
22:23, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes.
MOS:GAMECAPS provides for the usage of "occasional, conventionalized variances" from standard English capitalization - that is to say, when specific pieces of sport or game terminology are consistently referred to with nonstandard capitalizations, those nonstandard capitalizations should be followed. Pokemon types are universally capitalized in the in-game materials, and thus fall under the purview of this "conventionalized variances" language. I also second Mlb96's point about the fact that Pokemon types have definitions that overlap - but are not coterminous - with their real-world referents. Many Grass-type Pokemon, for instance, have no connection to grass and are only connected to unrelated types of plant.
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
22:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes. I find Mlb96's explanation at
WT:VG convincing. They are in-universe proper nouns and Mlb96 has provided many other examples at WT:VG of video games that capitalise in-universe names. If "ghost-type" isn't capitalised it may mislead readers to think it is a spirit of a dead Pokemon.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:09, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll provide an example,
Final Fantasy VIII, a Featured Article, includes sentences such as: Characters can also junction (equip) these spells onto their statistics—such as Strength, Vitality, and Luck— and They are similar to the Desperation Attacks of Final Fantasy VI. I wouldn't be surprised if someone decapitalise them to make a point. They're capitalised because they're game mechanic terms, same thing with Pokemon types.
Neocorelight (
Talk)
23:51, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I myself won't make any changes to articles until a consensus in determined. If this RfC is closed with consensus that they shouldn't be capitalized then I will make changes to the affected articles and possibly other articles where this is show similarly. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654523:57, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes As they represent specific categories of Pokemon rather than simply elements they are aligned with. Saying a Pokemon is a "Fire-type" is different than saying they are a "fire-using Pokemon".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
11:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) No, per my previous post: "Games capitalize or otherwise stylize Important Gameplay Terms all the time for the sake of clearly communicating with the player that it's an Important Gameplay Term. Wikipedia isn't a video game, though, and "fire", "ghost", "steel", etc, are all regular words used with their usual meanings - I just cannot see a case for capitalizing them". I said I wouldn't respond any further, but since an RfC was opened I feel obliged to make this one. (I will be removing this article from my watchlist following this post and will not be reading any further replies).--
AlexandraIDV11:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No as they are not proper nouns. Largely, the "yes" category is using the argument that "Fire-type", "Grass-type", etc. have very specific meanings, and are not necessarily associated with the idea of fire, grass, etc. If this is the case, then we are in
WP:FANCRUFT territory. I, along with likely the rest of the general audience, do not care that "Fire-type" actually means a Pokemon type which is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock, but resists Fire, Steel, Fairy, Grass, and Bug. –
Pbrks(
t •
c)18:48, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
How exactly? It can't be fancruft to include them in general because otherwise a lot of stuff wouldn't make sense because of how integral Pokemon typings are to the game. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No, describing Charmander as a "fire-type Pokémon" would tell the audience that Charmander is a Pokémon that is somehow associated with fire. Describing Charmander as a "Fire-type Pokémon" would aim to tell the audience that Charmander is a Pokémon that is weak to Water, Ground, and Rock... *things that only Pokémon fans care about*. –
Pbrks(
t •
c)19:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That is nonsensical, if we wanted to say that Charmander is associated with fire then we wouldn't use the word "type" at all, we would just call it a "fire Pokemon". The only reason to use the word "type" is if you're referring specifically to Pokemon types.
Mlb96 (
talk)
21:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
No per the analysis of sources by Mlb96, these do not meet the
MOS:CAPS threshold of being consistently capitalized in reliable sources. The caps are clearly not "necessary" within the meaning of our guidelines, so we default to lowercase. Simple.
Dicklyon (
talk)
06:13, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak no, as these are not
proper names and have not been adequately shown to be very consistently capitalized in
WP:independent reliable sources (IRSs). Per
MOS:CAPS, Wikipedia avoids unnecessary use of capital letters, and when the IRSs are not consistent, Wikipedia uses lowercase. And I don't buy the argument that capitalization should be used to indicate a special non-ordinary meaning of a word. If we want to explain that a term is a jargon term and thus has a special in-context meaning, we should introduce it using italics or quote marks, not by capital letters. See
MOS:WORDSASWORDS and
MOS:TERM. The "-type" suffix helps with that as well. To me, that argument for capitalization crosses into
MOS:SIGNIFCAPS territory. However, I've added "Weak", since (per Mlb96) the IRSs that use capital letters appear to outnumber those that don't. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
17:20, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes. Let me give you an example. If you are talking about Cyndaquil, to someone who is not well-versed with Pokémon, calling it a fire starter Pokémon, you might think it was a Pokémon that starts fires. If you capitalize it to be Fire starter Pokémon, it's a little less ambiguous. I mean, capitalized or not, it's ambiguous, but capitalizing it will reduce the ambiguity a little bit. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs06:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes If there is a distinction between "Fire-type" and "fire-type", which Mlb96's comment shows that there is, then yes, for accuracy.
Some1 (
talk)
19:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, as within the Pokémon jargon these are used as proper nouns. You can't replace "Ground-type" with "Earth-type", it is not replaceable with a synonym.
PikavoomTalk07:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I’m not sure that’s the best way to frame it. It should probably be something like "Do Pokémon types violate the MOS?". It’s clear Wikipedia has always capitalized Pokémon types as they should be, capitalized element, lower case T. The claims that it goes against MOS are clearly recent and ignore the Proper name exception detailed in the very excerpt they cite against such.--
CreecregofLife (
talk)
20:08, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I just realized that many style and spelling disputes on Wikipedia often follow what reliable sources use, so I decided to search Google News for "pokemon types" and check the first ten results from sources listed as reliable at
WP:WikiProject Video games/Sources. The results are:
USA Today, capitalizes types;
Gamespot, capitalizes types;
GamesRadar+, capitalizes types;
Polygon, does not capitalize types;
CNET, does not capitalize types;
Upcomer, capitalizes types;
Kotaku, does not capitalize types;
USA Today, capitalizes types;
USA Today, capitalizes types; and
Kotaku, capitalizes types. So that's 70% of reliable sources that do capitalize types, and 30% that do not.
Mlb96 (
talk)
01:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Not proving your experiment invalid but, USA Today appeared 3 times and Kotaku appeared 2 times (although interestingly Kotaku is inconsistent according to this brief experiment you did), so that may have skewed things a little. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Actually, I would just completely disregard those Kotaku sources since they don't seem to even be information at all but just games. The others I still wouldn't use in an article but at least they aren't games. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654501:38, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm aware that most of these wouldn't be usable to cite information in an article. But if you narrow it down to only sources that you could cite in an article, then the sample size would be too small to be useful; nobody who writes about Pokemon is going to be winning a Pulitzer Prize any time soon. My point was that when these outlets mention Pokemon types, they do so in uppercase.
Mlb96 (
talk)
04:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On a per-source basis, here’s what I found: Polygon and CNET consistently use lowercase. Kotaku varies depending on the article. Every other outlet consistently uses uppercase. That includes USA Today, Gamespot, GamesRadar+, IGN, VG247, Upcomer, Dot Esports, Forbes, Gamerant, Screenrant, and TheGamer, just to name a few.
Mlb96 (
talk)
09:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Please stay
WP:CIVIL! I'm seeing a lot of snarky and unprofessional commentary being thrown around, especially some that doesn't contribute anything of importance to this discussion. Remember, we are currently arguing on whether or not to capitalize "fire", so simply shake hands, state your case, and exit.
Panini!🥪01:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Source table. Green sources are reliable, yellow are situational.
Forbes staff articles are generally considered reliable (per
WP:FORBES), but Forbes contributor articles are not (per
WP:FORBESCON). At first glance, the difference between those two types of Forbes sources may not be obvious. —
BarrelProof (
talk)
05:42, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would check to see how many non-VG sources capitalized it (just to ensure there isn't any bias) however that would probably be rather difficult to do since those sources don't really care about video games unless they do something incredibly significant. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654519:09, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I stopped at this point because I found these examples within the first page of searching "fire-type" and "water-type" with site:whicheversite. Anyone saying Yes based on this source analysis that RSes are consistently uppercase needs to re-evaluate. --
ferret (
talk)
18:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Just pointing out that this discussion before my comment was 23,875 bytes and the article itself is 24,529. Good going guys and girls.
Juxlos (
talk)
01:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't care anymore. Honestly, I've decided over the last day that I don't really care about this website in general anymore, everyone is irrational and the rules are either applied or ignored in a completely arbitrary manner. Just close the RfC early, the consensus is clear.
Mlb96 (
talk)
02:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Whenever the RFC can be closed. I'd prefer if someone not involved in this discussion closed it so that a proper consensus can be determined because I keep seeing good arguments for both options. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:33, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Plot Summary Error
I read the plot summary, and I noticed the article states "the player crafts a special Pokéball capable of capturing the other legendary Pokémon". However, in the game itself, the player's "rival" of sorts is the one who crafts the Origin Ball (Either Rei or Akari, whichever gendered player character wasn't chosen at the beginning of the game). I feel the point should be changed from 'the player' to something else. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Pokelego999 (
talk •
contribs)
02:37, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Aside from the rather long discussion above, are the types of the Pokémon really relevant to the article? Other articles, such as for instance
Pokémon Red and Blue mention the names but not their types. It feels a bit out of place since the information isn't really relevant - a Pokemon fan would know what types they are, a non-fan would not know what a "type" is. I went ahead and removed it. Also, Rowlet is Grass/Flying.
Juxlos (
talk)
13:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I've noticed that this is a common form of vandalism that occurs on this article, and I wonder if added a comment saying to not change the spelling to "Arkoos/Arcoos" would be appropriate, or would that just invoke
WP:BEANS and cause people to do that more? ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654517:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
I think it's just a joke/meme thing, not an honest proposal, so I think BEANS applies. I've re-protected the page though, that might be a better approach.
Sergecross73msg me18:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Alright. I don't think protection was necessary quite yet since this is the first time the article had been vandalized in about a month but if you think it was then that's perfectly fine. ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Alright then. Also, you are correct in that it's just a joke/meme thing. It originates from the Youtuber MandJTV. It was a joke he created I think because there was no real official pronunciation of "Arceus" that existed (the pronunciation in official sources such as the games even contradicted each other). ―
Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#654518:56, 21 April 2022 (UTC)reply
A second Legends game has been announced! And Zygarde's going to be involved! Does anyone think then that Pokémon Legends as a whole will need it's own article as a series?
Visokor (
talk)
14:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
There's a long standing consensus that there's no need for a series article until
at least 3 entries. There's just no purpose to create one sooner, as anything you could write could easily be placed in the first or second game article. So no, we are a ways off from that.
Sergecross73msg me16:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply