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Propose Pinsk pogrom. Bad titles of some articles is no justification to create new articles under such names. -- Irpen 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Davies (see above) notes that the order to shoot was given by a lieutant. Bendersky notes that 'major Luczynski' was the town commander, but doesn't state he gave the order. My quick search show that future general Aleksander Narbut-Łuczyński served as a colonel during the PSWar, but I can't find anything more in online sources, for now I suggest rephrasing the text so that - per our sources - we don't associate Łuczyński with the order itself; I can't find anything on his promotion, but the current article implies he was promoted for ordering a massacre - certainly a mistaken allegation.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead states: Also arrested and shot where members of the medical personnel of the Pinsk hospital. The reference laks most info (full name of the author, page citation, isbn). Also, another reference is non-English (Документы и материалы по истории советско-польских отношений.), please translate. Further, per WP:LEAD lead should summarize the article - so the hospital massacre should be discussed in article; even so what's the connection of this alleged hospital massacre to Pinsk massacre, I don't know - it is not mentioned in a single source I can find (the current text event doesn't state who shot whom in the hospital - Poles Jews, Soviet Poles, Poles Soviets...?).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Meltyukhov speaks of murder of Jews arrested at the meeting separately from the murder of the medical personnel. Also, that would be not a unique event. Medics were also murdered at the Berdychiv hospital. Perhaps they where Jews as there were many Jewish medics and Polish advances were notorious by anti-Jewish atrocities. I recommend Babel's diary recently translated into English and published in NY. -- Irpen 22:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Meltyukhov does not say that the hospital was in Pinsk. He may be describing a completely separate event. -- Lysy talk 05:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please restore the author's paragraphing. -- Irpen 08:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I've bulleted the sentences for easier reference. Their order is not changed. What I'm trying to convey it that there is no clear relation between sentences 2 and 3. Also, about the hospital, we don't know who was arrested, when, where, by whom, why, if there was any trial, how many prisoners were executed, and why. This is pretty useless for the purpose of the article about the Pinsk massacre. -- Lysy talk 09:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that the second phrase is continuation of the first bullet point otherwise the text does not make sense Alex Bakharev 10:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
As I cannot read Russian, I am hoping you can answer the following questions:
English translation would be appreciated. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The source that Meltyukhov cites for that section is Документы и материалы по истории советско-польских отношений. That may sound familiar to some because we already once had extensive discussion about a controversial quote supposedly backed by that source, which in the end turned out not to exist in the actual publication as referenced (see [ [6]]). In Polish the title of that publication is Z dziejów stosunków polsko-radzieckich; studia i materiały. (I am concluding here these are Polish and Russian language versions of the same book published in parallel, as would be reasonable for this kind of compilation, but correct me if I am wrong in this).
I invite everyone here to consider the bias inherent to these volumes that were published in the 1960s and the 1970s. At that time, it was the standard line of Soviet and Communist Polish historiography to portray the Second Polish Republic that existed in 1918-1939 as inherently immoral, and its conflict with the Bolsheviks in 1919-1921 as the blackest of evils. The fact that Meltyukhov is relying on that publication to back up his claims speaks volumes about the quality of his historical research and his caliber as a historian. In a nutshell, it appears he does not seem to have time to go after original documents in the archives, and instead is using what was conveniently compiled by the biased Communist Soviet and Polish scholars. Balcer 03:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the sources agree, that the number of victims were 35. Do we have any significant sources that claim otherwise ? -- Lysy talk 22:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Pinsk massacre was discussed some time ago at Talk:History_of_Jews_in_Poland#1918-1939.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I found online a (Polish edition) citation about this incident: [7]. Interesting points: 1) most but not all victims were Jewish; American lieutant Foster confirmed that Polish army acted withing acceptable limits (considering it was near frontline during a war) and finally, that there are still doubts whether it wasn't, indeed, a Bolshevik meeting after all.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And again, we are hearing this Personal Attack accusations to deflect from the topic. I am right now busy writing up an evidence for your ArbCom as the fact that you continued the behavior with unabashed zeal gave me an impression that you think you have some sort of impunity. The recent series of events was the last straw to make me set aside some time to collect diffs for your evidence page. So, for now, I leave the articles to others. As for examples of yours sources manipulation, here is one recent example and here is another. -- Irpen 04:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Balcer, if you read an entry of David Gerard who Piotrus brought to his ArbCom by asking secretly over IRC, my behavior is already being investigated by an IRC-club. Besides, this is not news to me. I really enjoy having their attention for quite some time lately. Your comment about second incident is interesting. So, you admit that the translation of sources was not exactly an exact one. But what about the first example? Anyway, more later. -- Irpen 04:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
For starters, I am not twisting anything. If you'll permit me to use English on the English Wikipedia, Davies: WERS pg. 48, "-and although the nature of the illegal meeting, variously described as a Bolshevik cell, an assembly of the local co-operative society, and a meeting of the Committee for American Relief, was never clarified, the publicity reflected badly on the Polish Army." By saying there are still doubts whether it wasn't, indeed, a Bolshevik meeting after all, under the header Davies in WERS on Pinsk, is to imply that that's Davies' own conclusion, whereas it is not Davies' conclusion, but your own conclusion. Maybe it even was that kind of a meeting, but don't tell us that that is what Davies said. Now as for an apology, I'll be happy to make one when you explain, what the significance of these people possibly attending a "Bolshevik meeting" has to do with this crime. Is that justification for murdering them? Davies tell us in WERS that Łuzyński ordered these hostages to "be summarily shot to make an example. The town was pacified." Dr. Dan 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mission of The United States to Poland, Henry Morgenthau, Sr. Report From Wikisource [8]
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--
Poeticbent
talk
15:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the deal, in a nutshell:
Aside from material aid, Washington bestowed tokens of political favor upon the Poles. ... To protect Poland's international reputation against widespread, if exaggerated, accusations of mistreatment of her large Jewish minority, Washington dispatched an investigatory commission led by Henry Morgenthau, one of the most prominent American Jewish political figures. Morgenthau was selected for the job precisely because he was known to be sympathetic to Poland, and his report largely exculpated the Polish government, exactly as expected.
From Poland, the United States, and the Stabilization of Europe, 1919-1933 By Neal Pease, Oxford University Press, 1986, page 10.
I hope this confirms to the doubters the reliability of this report. However, if we do use the information it contained, in fairness we should make clear its favorable view of the Polish government's attitude towards anti-Jewish violence. Balcer 23:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And who and why is introducing this template. The article carries an incredible number of inline refs is deemed unverifiable now? Or is it done to hold off the featuring of this proud event at DYK while it is still eligible? If so, I expect revert warring to keep the tl no matter how many refs are there for the next two-three days and a sudden "acceptance of compromise" once the freshness of the article expires. Better yet, please cut this sabotage. -- Irpen 02:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, for the record, while I had a number of issues with Balcer and Lysy, they were never known to be eager to hide the Polish skeletons in closets. Whatever bad blood there was between me and them, this is not the accusation I would ever make. -- Irpen 02:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As noted by Poeticbent at #Morgenthau, the wikisource article has no source, and thus fails WP:V. Although I think it is 'the real thing', we cannot use sources that are unverified and as such instead of arguing about a tag or not, let's concentrate on finding the best way to verify the reports. I was able to verify some quotes on Google Print, but not the entire report: if somebody could find it in some other sources, this would be appreciated. Until then, we can either keep the tag, remove the report quotes, or - preferably - try to verify each claim with google print.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Since both Dr. Dan and Irpen appear to support taking out skeletons from our respective closets, may I suggest some articles be created or expanded by them to show their sincerity. Irpen, the one article which is sorely missing is Kiev Pogrom (1905), one of the most notorious in the Russian Empire, with about 100 Jews murdered. And Dr. Dan, may I suggest that you expand the freshly created Kaunas pogrom article, maybe even nominate it for DYK (there is still time as it was only created on May 29). Balcer 15:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dr Dan, it is really OK, no problem. Just to make sure what Balcer really wants to see, a new article or verification of my commitment to uncloseting skeletons? Because the latter can be easily inferred from my past work if only one is interested to see. I am not sure, uncovering of whose closets Balcer has in mind. I have been accused in the Ukrainian nationalism and Ukrainophobia, Russian nationalism and Russophobia, propagating of Stalinist myths and propagating the imperialist anti-communist ones. This combination of incompatible biases that I was accused of somehow makes me sure that I am doing the right thing overall. For my uncovering of Ukrainian skeletons, please take a look at the history of UPA article. Also check Babi Yar. For my uncovering of Soviets skeletons, check who wrote much of the Holodomor article. For uncovering of Russian skeletons, check who wrote much of the Orange Revolution. I can continue the list for as long as Balcer needs. 3 article's per skeleton's ethnicity? 5? 7? This is the strangest development of this discussion so far.
As for the Kiev pogrom, there are two obstacles. The relative obscurity of the event and scarcity of sources is one of them. I don't go to state archives primarily due to real life commitments. Additionally, I have a HUGE backlog on my todo wikilist. Just my folder with not yet finished but mostly written articles to post contains over a dozen articles. And often when I feel just like sorting out some of it, an urgent wikievent happens, like a new IRC engineered block if somebody, a grievous incident of wikipower corruption, harrassment campaign against valued editor or a new stage of fervent nationalist POV pushing that demands my undivided attention. I am sorry Balcer to have disappointed you wrt to not writing about Kiev pogrom yet. But please check some of the articles linked above if you think I keep skeletons in closets. -- Irpen 19:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, so now you are hinting that I have a pro-Soviet view. Did you check Holodomor and Orange Revolution by any chance? -- Irpen 19:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
All right, Balcer, what you were hinting at is clear to any reader of the above and I am fine to leave it at that. Out of reciprocity, I would like to draw your attention to History of Jews in Poland actively edited and watched by our respected colleagues and skeleton outers some of who dared even to mention its being an FA for a while. This is the kind of stuff I was expunging from it this very year.
These both rants were added by our dear Ksenon/Pawel/Reichenbach/Turthseeker what are his other names and remained there for months in the articles watched and heralded by our skeleton uncoverers.
Here is more added by others:
So, while some action on mine and Dan's part would help in UA/LT-related topics, I think such challenges are inappropriate. There is still too much mess in this very house to challenge others. -- Irpen 20:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
How could they be considered hostages, if they were shot within hour of capture ? What would be the reason for having them as hostages ? Did the soldiers demand any ransom ? This does not make sense. -- Lysy talk 19:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Per my edits to the article, I think prisoner is more correct than hostage, but this seems like a minor semantics issue. If Davies uses hostages, I have no further objections, he certainly knows the nuances of English better than I.--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus |
talk
01:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus was right about this. The basic difference between war prisoner and a hostage taken during military action lays in the idea of security and/or ransom, or lack of thereof. According to Free Dictionary by Farlex the Jewish captives could only be interpreted as prisoners, not as hostages, and here’s why:
pris·on·er(prz-nr, prznr) n. 1. A person held in custody, captivity, or a condition of forcible restraint... [10]
hos·tage(hstj)
n.
1. A person held by one party in a conflict as security that specified terms will be met by the opposing party.
[11]
--
Poeticbent
talk
02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If there are no objections I intend to remove the nonsense about the Polish Army "panicking" (thereby committing this atrocity under this form of stress), as this is someone's pure POV. Furthemore, the using of Davies', WERS, as the source confirming this nonsense is another example of the falsification of a source. Nowhere does Davies use panic in describing the motives or basis of the Polish Army in WERS for committing this crime. Dr. Dan 02:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This is what Morgenthau said. And the word political is used in much more wider context (i.e. Ukrainian independence movement). I think there is no need to distort the sources. Please try to show more respect for the readers next time, please. M0RD00R 18:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The references to "executed" need to be substantiated. Is taking thirty-five civilians hostage, and shooting them without due process an execution, or murder? Shooting hostages in order to pacify what is believed to be a potentially dangerous situation is definitely an unjustifiable criminal atrocity and this article has made too many attempts at weaseling out of that fact. I wish to correct this. Any objections? Dr. Dan 03:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Pogrom or riot? WHy do the Poles always pogrom but White Americans riot? Xx236 13:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't exactly remember the source that mentioned the "Zionist meeting" now. Anyway, Polish wiki also mentions it ( pl:Masakra w Pińsku, 1919). -- Lysy talk 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
And here: Józef Lewandowski in "Rzeczpospolita", #39, 15 February 2001 writes: Na rozkaz majora Łuczyńskiego rozstrzelano 35 miejscowych Żydów. Próbując zatrzeć zbrodnię, twierdzono, że zamordowani byli komunistami i że szykowali powstanie. Ze źródeł żydowskich wiadomo, że byli to syjoniści, zebrani w domu ludowym w celu podziału amerykańskiej pomocy żywnościowej przed Wielkanocą. Zbrodniarzowi nic się nie stało, przeciwnie - awansował, został generałem. Budziło to zgrozę również w wielu polskich działaczach. O zbrodni w Polsce zapomniano, zwłaszcza że historycy dużo uczynili, by ją zamazać. I'm removing the citation request. -- Lysy talk 19:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Przed Wielkanocą? What about Passover?
For most English speakers a cow is the major source of milk in the western world (and elsewhere), but it seems to be understood differently by my constant shadow stalking my edits. True, the alternate definition of cow, as a verb, is to, "Subdue, restrain, or overcome by affecting with a feeling of awe", and perhaps the author of Zydokomuna, thinks this is what the purpose of the actions of the Polish Army was before, during, or after murdering these people in Pinsk. I do not. I would be very happy to discuss each recently reverted edit of mine by the "Prokonsul," and welcome anyone else's input into this tragic event. I would even suggest that Piotrus write to Dr. Efraim Zuroff to get his opinion on this Polish officer "panicking" from the "reports" that he received (and from whom), causing him to effect this horrendous massacre. Many people are very unaware of this brutality that may have set the stage for the later tragedy that befell the Jewish people in Eastern Europe. This article is truly not "neutral" and needs to be cleansed of it's multitude of WP:Weaseling terminology. Dr. Dan ( talk) 12:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Talking about a "Polish lieutenant" or the "officer in charge" is mealy-mouthed; surely his name is known? Hugo999 ( talk) 09:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is this? It's an interesting read, but it's written by Józef Lewandowski, published on www.jozeflewandowski.se, and claims to have been published first in 1988 in some engimatic outlet, "POLIN 2". I am afraid it may fail the WP:V as a self-published/unreliable source... -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
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For the warning from the two Jewish soldiers I can not find in the source provided any backing that they specifically targeted this meeting as part of any uprising. "He was told by two Jewish soldiers that the purpose of the meeting was to plot an armed Bolshevik uprising". The source provided only seems to confirm that the soldiers informed about a possible uprising not that this meeting was part of the uprising. 2601:644:8502:1FB0:EC00:5A4D:9083:30FA ( talk) 20:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
It has been asserted officially by the Polish au- thorities that there was reason to suspect this assemblage of bolshevist allegiance. This mission is convinced that no arguments of bolshevist nature were mentioned in the meeting in question. While it is recognized that certain information of bolshe- vist activities jn Pinsk had been received by two Jewish soldiers, the undersigned is convinced that Maj. Luczynski, the town commander, showed rep- rehensible and frivolous readiness to place credence upon such untested assertions, and on this insuffi- cient basis took inexcusably drastic action against reputable citizens whose loyal character could have been immediately established by a consultation with any well known non-Jewish inhabitant.. Which seems to indicate general information on bolshevik activities and not specific intel on this meeting. As for the rp article - I would reject it on the venue and author - but I had trouble accessing it as well. Icewhiz ( talk) 22:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
uprising of which he had been forewarned by two Jewish soldier informers sought to terrorize the Jewish population". Also which sources according to you are falsified?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Seems there is also a Pinsk massacre (of Jews) of 1941. [14], [15]. I think it is less known, but likely notable. So Pinsk massacre (1941) should be created, probably? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
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The third-fourth lines require a correction. Currently reading "The Jews who were executed had been arrested were meeting in a Zionist center . . .", it should say "The Jews who were executed had been arrested while meeting in a Zionist center . . ." Mister-P-Niss ( talk) 02:11, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Pinsk massacre appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 4 June 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
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Propose Pinsk pogrom. Bad titles of some articles is no justification to create new articles under such names. -- Irpen 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Davies (see above) notes that the order to shoot was given by a lieutant. Bendersky notes that 'major Luczynski' was the town commander, but doesn't state he gave the order. My quick search show that future general Aleksander Narbut-Łuczyński served as a colonel during the PSWar, but I can't find anything more in online sources, for now I suggest rephrasing the text so that - per our sources - we don't associate Łuczyński with the order itself; I can't find anything on his promotion, but the current article implies he was promoted for ordering a massacre - certainly a mistaken allegation.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead states: Also arrested and shot where members of the medical personnel of the Pinsk hospital. The reference laks most info (full name of the author, page citation, isbn). Also, another reference is non-English (Документы и материалы по истории советско-польских отношений.), please translate. Further, per WP:LEAD lead should summarize the article - so the hospital massacre should be discussed in article; even so what's the connection of this alleged hospital massacre to Pinsk massacre, I don't know - it is not mentioned in a single source I can find (the current text event doesn't state who shot whom in the hospital - Poles Jews, Soviet Poles, Poles Soviets...?).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Meltyukhov speaks of murder of Jews arrested at the meeting separately from the murder of the medical personnel. Also, that would be not a unique event. Medics were also murdered at the Berdychiv hospital. Perhaps they where Jews as there were many Jewish medics and Polish advances were notorious by anti-Jewish atrocities. I recommend Babel's diary recently translated into English and published in NY. -- Irpen 22:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Meltyukhov does not say that the hospital was in Pinsk. He may be describing a completely separate event. -- Lysy talk 05:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please restore the author's paragraphing. -- Irpen 08:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I've bulleted the sentences for easier reference. Their order is not changed. What I'm trying to convey it that there is no clear relation between sentences 2 and 3. Also, about the hospital, we don't know who was arrested, when, where, by whom, why, if there was any trial, how many prisoners were executed, and why. This is pretty useless for the purpose of the article about the Pinsk massacre. -- Lysy talk 09:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that the second phrase is continuation of the first bullet point otherwise the text does not make sense Alex Bakharev 10:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
As I cannot read Russian, I am hoping you can answer the following questions:
English translation would be appreciated. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The source that Meltyukhov cites for that section is Документы и материалы по истории советско-польских отношений. That may sound familiar to some because we already once had extensive discussion about a controversial quote supposedly backed by that source, which in the end turned out not to exist in the actual publication as referenced (see [ [6]]). In Polish the title of that publication is Z dziejów stosunków polsko-radzieckich; studia i materiały. (I am concluding here these are Polish and Russian language versions of the same book published in parallel, as would be reasonable for this kind of compilation, but correct me if I am wrong in this).
I invite everyone here to consider the bias inherent to these volumes that were published in the 1960s and the 1970s. At that time, it was the standard line of Soviet and Communist Polish historiography to portray the Second Polish Republic that existed in 1918-1939 as inherently immoral, and its conflict with the Bolsheviks in 1919-1921 as the blackest of evils. The fact that Meltyukhov is relying on that publication to back up his claims speaks volumes about the quality of his historical research and his caliber as a historian. In a nutshell, it appears he does not seem to have time to go after original documents in the archives, and instead is using what was conveniently compiled by the biased Communist Soviet and Polish scholars. Balcer 03:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the sources agree, that the number of victims were 35. Do we have any significant sources that claim otherwise ? -- Lysy talk 22:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Pinsk massacre was discussed some time ago at Talk:History_of_Jews_in_Poland#1918-1939.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I found online a (Polish edition) citation about this incident: [7]. Interesting points: 1) most but not all victims were Jewish; American lieutant Foster confirmed that Polish army acted withing acceptable limits (considering it was near frontline during a war) and finally, that there are still doubts whether it wasn't, indeed, a Bolshevik meeting after all.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And again, we are hearing this Personal Attack accusations to deflect from the topic. I am right now busy writing up an evidence for your ArbCom as the fact that you continued the behavior with unabashed zeal gave me an impression that you think you have some sort of impunity. The recent series of events was the last straw to make me set aside some time to collect diffs for your evidence page. So, for now, I leave the articles to others. As for examples of yours sources manipulation, here is one recent example and here is another. -- Irpen 04:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Balcer, if you read an entry of David Gerard who Piotrus brought to his ArbCom by asking secretly over IRC, my behavior is already being investigated by an IRC-club. Besides, this is not news to me. I really enjoy having their attention for quite some time lately. Your comment about second incident is interesting. So, you admit that the translation of sources was not exactly an exact one. But what about the first example? Anyway, more later. -- Irpen 04:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
For starters, I am not twisting anything. If you'll permit me to use English on the English Wikipedia, Davies: WERS pg. 48, "-and although the nature of the illegal meeting, variously described as a Bolshevik cell, an assembly of the local co-operative society, and a meeting of the Committee for American Relief, was never clarified, the publicity reflected badly on the Polish Army." By saying there are still doubts whether it wasn't, indeed, a Bolshevik meeting after all, under the header Davies in WERS on Pinsk, is to imply that that's Davies' own conclusion, whereas it is not Davies' conclusion, but your own conclusion. Maybe it even was that kind of a meeting, but don't tell us that that is what Davies said. Now as for an apology, I'll be happy to make one when you explain, what the significance of these people possibly attending a "Bolshevik meeting" has to do with this crime. Is that justification for murdering them? Davies tell us in WERS that Łuzyński ordered these hostages to "be summarily shot to make an example. The town was pacified." Dr. Dan 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mission of The United States to Poland, Henry Morgenthau, Sr. Report From Wikisource [8]
This article is not linked to by any other article on the English Wikisource (it is an Orphaned page). It should be determined whether a link to this page should be added to another page or whether this page is a candidate for deletion. Links from other Wikimedia projects, such as Wikipedia, do not count.
See Category:Unlinked for guidance on choosing pages to link to this page.
See Wikisource:Deletion policy for guidance on whether this page is a candidate for deletion.
--
Poeticbent
talk
15:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the deal, in a nutshell:
Aside from material aid, Washington bestowed tokens of political favor upon the Poles. ... To protect Poland's international reputation against widespread, if exaggerated, accusations of mistreatment of her large Jewish minority, Washington dispatched an investigatory commission led by Henry Morgenthau, one of the most prominent American Jewish political figures. Morgenthau was selected for the job precisely because he was known to be sympathetic to Poland, and his report largely exculpated the Polish government, exactly as expected.
From Poland, the United States, and the Stabilization of Europe, 1919-1933 By Neal Pease, Oxford University Press, 1986, page 10.
I hope this confirms to the doubters the reliability of this report. However, if we do use the information it contained, in fairness we should make clear its favorable view of the Polish government's attitude towards anti-Jewish violence. Balcer 23:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And who and why is introducing this template. The article carries an incredible number of inline refs is deemed unverifiable now? Or is it done to hold off the featuring of this proud event at DYK while it is still eligible? If so, I expect revert warring to keep the tl no matter how many refs are there for the next two-three days and a sudden "acceptance of compromise" once the freshness of the article expires. Better yet, please cut this sabotage. -- Irpen 02:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, for the record, while I had a number of issues with Balcer and Lysy, they were never known to be eager to hide the Polish skeletons in closets. Whatever bad blood there was between me and them, this is not the accusation I would ever make. -- Irpen 02:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As noted by Poeticbent at #Morgenthau, the wikisource article has no source, and thus fails WP:V. Although I think it is 'the real thing', we cannot use sources that are unverified and as such instead of arguing about a tag or not, let's concentrate on finding the best way to verify the reports. I was able to verify some quotes on Google Print, but not the entire report: if somebody could find it in some other sources, this would be appreciated. Until then, we can either keep the tag, remove the report quotes, or - preferably - try to verify each claim with google print.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Since both Dr. Dan and Irpen appear to support taking out skeletons from our respective closets, may I suggest some articles be created or expanded by them to show their sincerity. Irpen, the one article which is sorely missing is Kiev Pogrom (1905), one of the most notorious in the Russian Empire, with about 100 Jews murdered. And Dr. Dan, may I suggest that you expand the freshly created Kaunas pogrom article, maybe even nominate it for DYK (there is still time as it was only created on May 29). Balcer 15:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dr Dan, it is really OK, no problem. Just to make sure what Balcer really wants to see, a new article or verification of my commitment to uncloseting skeletons? Because the latter can be easily inferred from my past work if only one is interested to see. I am not sure, uncovering of whose closets Balcer has in mind. I have been accused in the Ukrainian nationalism and Ukrainophobia, Russian nationalism and Russophobia, propagating of Stalinist myths and propagating the imperialist anti-communist ones. This combination of incompatible biases that I was accused of somehow makes me sure that I am doing the right thing overall. For my uncovering of Ukrainian skeletons, please take a look at the history of UPA article. Also check Babi Yar. For my uncovering of Soviets skeletons, check who wrote much of the Holodomor article. For uncovering of Russian skeletons, check who wrote much of the Orange Revolution. I can continue the list for as long as Balcer needs. 3 article's per skeleton's ethnicity? 5? 7? This is the strangest development of this discussion so far.
As for the Kiev pogrom, there are two obstacles. The relative obscurity of the event and scarcity of sources is one of them. I don't go to state archives primarily due to real life commitments. Additionally, I have a HUGE backlog on my todo wikilist. Just my folder with not yet finished but mostly written articles to post contains over a dozen articles. And often when I feel just like sorting out some of it, an urgent wikievent happens, like a new IRC engineered block if somebody, a grievous incident of wikipower corruption, harrassment campaign against valued editor or a new stage of fervent nationalist POV pushing that demands my undivided attention. I am sorry Balcer to have disappointed you wrt to not writing about Kiev pogrom yet. But please check some of the articles linked above if you think I keep skeletons in closets. -- Irpen 19:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, so now you are hinting that I have a pro-Soviet view. Did you check Holodomor and Orange Revolution by any chance? -- Irpen 19:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
All right, Balcer, what you were hinting at is clear to any reader of the above and I am fine to leave it at that. Out of reciprocity, I would like to draw your attention to History of Jews in Poland actively edited and watched by our respected colleagues and skeleton outers some of who dared even to mention its being an FA for a while. This is the kind of stuff I was expunging from it this very year.
These both rants were added by our dear Ksenon/Pawel/Reichenbach/Turthseeker what are his other names and remained there for months in the articles watched and heralded by our skeleton uncoverers.
Here is more added by others:
So, while some action on mine and Dan's part would help in UA/LT-related topics, I think such challenges are inappropriate. There is still too much mess in this very house to challenge others. -- Irpen 20:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
How could they be considered hostages, if they were shot within hour of capture ? What would be the reason for having them as hostages ? Did the soldiers demand any ransom ? This does not make sense. -- Lysy talk 19:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Per my edits to the article, I think prisoner is more correct than hostage, but this seems like a minor semantics issue. If Davies uses hostages, I have no further objections, he certainly knows the nuances of English better than I.--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus |
talk
01:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus was right about this. The basic difference between war prisoner and a hostage taken during military action lays in the idea of security and/or ransom, or lack of thereof. According to Free Dictionary by Farlex the Jewish captives could only be interpreted as prisoners, not as hostages, and here’s why:
pris·on·er(prz-nr, prznr) n. 1. A person held in custody, captivity, or a condition of forcible restraint... [10]
hos·tage(hstj)
n.
1. A person held by one party in a conflict as security that specified terms will be met by the opposing party.
[11]
--
Poeticbent
talk
02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If there are no objections I intend to remove the nonsense about the Polish Army "panicking" (thereby committing this atrocity under this form of stress), as this is someone's pure POV. Furthemore, the using of Davies', WERS, as the source confirming this nonsense is another example of the falsification of a source. Nowhere does Davies use panic in describing the motives or basis of the Polish Army in WERS for committing this crime. Dr. Dan 02:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This is what Morgenthau said. And the word political is used in much more wider context (i.e. Ukrainian independence movement). I think there is no need to distort the sources. Please try to show more respect for the readers next time, please. M0RD00R 18:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The references to "executed" need to be substantiated. Is taking thirty-five civilians hostage, and shooting them without due process an execution, or murder? Shooting hostages in order to pacify what is believed to be a potentially dangerous situation is definitely an unjustifiable criminal atrocity and this article has made too many attempts at weaseling out of that fact. I wish to correct this. Any objections? Dr. Dan 03:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Pogrom or riot? WHy do the Poles always pogrom but White Americans riot? Xx236 13:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't exactly remember the source that mentioned the "Zionist meeting" now. Anyway, Polish wiki also mentions it ( pl:Masakra w Pińsku, 1919). -- Lysy talk 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
And here: Józef Lewandowski in "Rzeczpospolita", #39, 15 February 2001 writes: Na rozkaz majora Łuczyńskiego rozstrzelano 35 miejscowych Żydów. Próbując zatrzeć zbrodnię, twierdzono, że zamordowani byli komunistami i że szykowali powstanie. Ze źródeł żydowskich wiadomo, że byli to syjoniści, zebrani w domu ludowym w celu podziału amerykańskiej pomocy żywnościowej przed Wielkanocą. Zbrodniarzowi nic się nie stało, przeciwnie - awansował, został generałem. Budziło to zgrozę również w wielu polskich działaczach. O zbrodni w Polsce zapomniano, zwłaszcza że historycy dużo uczynili, by ją zamazać. I'm removing the citation request. -- Lysy talk 19:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Przed Wielkanocą? What about Passover?
For most English speakers a cow is the major source of milk in the western world (and elsewhere), but it seems to be understood differently by my constant shadow stalking my edits. True, the alternate definition of cow, as a verb, is to, "Subdue, restrain, or overcome by affecting with a feeling of awe", and perhaps the author of Zydokomuna, thinks this is what the purpose of the actions of the Polish Army was before, during, or after murdering these people in Pinsk. I do not. I would be very happy to discuss each recently reverted edit of mine by the "Prokonsul," and welcome anyone else's input into this tragic event. I would even suggest that Piotrus write to Dr. Efraim Zuroff to get his opinion on this Polish officer "panicking" from the "reports" that he received (and from whom), causing him to effect this horrendous massacre. Many people are very unaware of this brutality that may have set the stage for the later tragedy that befell the Jewish people in Eastern Europe. This article is truly not "neutral" and needs to be cleansed of it's multitude of WP:Weaseling terminology. Dr. Dan ( talk) 12:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Talking about a "Polish lieutenant" or the "officer in charge" is mealy-mouthed; surely his name is known? Hugo999 ( talk) 09:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
How reliable is this? It's an interesting read, but it's written by Józef Lewandowski, published on www.jozeflewandowski.se, and claims to have been published first in 1988 in some engimatic outlet, "POLIN 2". I am afraid it may fail the WP:V as a self-published/unreliable source... -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
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For the warning from the two Jewish soldiers I can not find in the source provided any backing that they specifically targeted this meeting as part of any uprising. "He was told by two Jewish soldiers that the purpose of the meeting was to plot an armed Bolshevik uprising". The source provided only seems to confirm that the soldiers informed about a possible uprising not that this meeting was part of the uprising. 2601:644:8502:1FB0:EC00:5A4D:9083:30FA ( talk) 20:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
It has been asserted officially by the Polish au- thorities that there was reason to suspect this assemblage of bolshevist allegiance. This mission is convinced that no arguments of bolshevist nature were mentioned in the meeting in question. While it is recognized that certain information of bolshe- vist activities jn Pinsk had been received by two Jewish soldiers, the undersigned is convinced that Maj. Luczynski, the town commander, showed rep- rehensible and frivolous readiness to place credence upon such untested assertions, and on this insuffi- cient basis took inexcusably drastic action against reputable citizens whose loyal character could have been immediately established by a consultation with any well known non-Jewish inhabitant.. Which seems to indicate general information on bolshevik activities and not specific intel on this meeting. As for the rp article - I would reject it on the venue and author - but I had trouble accessing it as well. Icewhiz ( talk) 22:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
uprising of which he had been forewarned by two Jewish soldier informers sought to terrorize the Jewish population". Also which sources according to you are falsified?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Seems there is also a Pinsk massacre (of Jews) of 1941. [14], [15]. I think it is less known, but likely notable. So Pinsk massacre (1941) should be created, probably? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
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The third-fourth lines require a correction. Currently reading "The Jews who were executed had been arrested were meeting in a Zionist center . . .", it should say "The Jews who were executed had been arrested while meeting in a Zionist center . . ." Mister-P-Niss ( talk) 02:11, 19 December 2021 (UTC)