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Okay, I made some additions to this article. As I said earlier on this page, I think it's a good idea to include some information on the background of his success and on his influence. Also, I have changed some bits here and there. Most notably, I removed the bit about asylum seekers numbering in the 40,000s as claimed by Fortuyn, and the comments that the number was actually in decline. While this is perfectly true, it seems a bit POV to include this directly after his statement, especially since he wanted to severely limit immigration and was presumably not very concerned about the exact number. We could still include something like it, I think, if we improve on the wording. Also, the previous wording seemed to suggest that there was something of a quota of 40,000, while this is obviously not the case. Furthermore, I think it's a bit odd and POV to go into gruesome details about the shari'a unless Fortuyn specifically mentioned those. So unless he did, I suggest we remove that comment as well. Junes 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I think tis article is actually pretty NPOV now, and the notice should be removed. I'll add a comment on the talk page of the anon who included it. Junes 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
The man has written a number of books in his lifetime. Should we include a list, even though they haven't been translated into English (yet)? And give a quick summary of each one as well?
I reverted the additions on Fortuyn's alleged defense of pedophilia, which have been added twice by User:195.93.21.71. I'm not sure, but the quotes seem to have been taken out of context and used as a smear against Fortuyn. It could very well be that Fortuyn held supportive views of pedophilia; we know that he was rather liberal both in behavior and thinking when it came to sex or drugs, so I guess it's not inconceivable. However, this is rather irrelevant since AFAIK it has never been the subject of public discussion or controversy. So I don't think it belongs here, and certainly not at that length in the introduction. Junes 20:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
So now that there is some more evidence regarding Fortuyn's escapades with minors, I tried to rewrite the new section about it to include some of the old stuff. In retrospect, it might have been better to rewrite the allegations instead of deleting them outright. I apologize for that.
Anyhow, I rewrote the section avoiding the word pedophilia. Although this label is often incorrectly applied to any sort of sex with minors, it really applies to sex with prepubescent children. Being attracted to teenage boys or girls is fairly common, while pedophilia is relatively rare. I strongly suspect that any sex that Fortuyn might have been engaged in, would have been with boys in their teens (although I haven't reviewed Peter R. de Vries' claims in detail. Junes 17:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Edited introduction and biography for clarity and grammar. Erdapfelgal 12:09, 8 November 2005
Edited the section about the significance of the fact that it was a political murder; Excluding WWII, it was appartantly the first peacetime political murder in the Netherlands since the lynching of the De Witt brothers in The Hague in 1672! More them 300 years.
Well, if the references brought forward above are not enough, then i do not know how the wikipedia in general can move forward. Agree that it is a difficult fact to prove and that there has already been another possible political killing (in Nijmegen) recently. But in all fairness, can i rephrase the sentence slightly and re-introduce it?-- Prudentia 01:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
As you mentioned earlier, it is very fifficult to varify, but I agree wit h your comments. Let's leave it like this for the time being, since i hope all involved in the discussion can agree with this line. BTW: the word atrocities could have been used for Dutch as well as German ones, but no disagreement from this side against the word 'events'.-- Prudentia 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Should this article also not mention that before LPF and even Leefbaar Nederland, Pim Fortuyn had been a member of PvdA as well?
I re-added the De Vries stuff which was taken out, although I left out the reference to the Scotsman; I don't feel that this article has received enough attention in the mainstream press, and including the piece seemed to suggest that Fortuyn might have had with minors after all. Furthermore, the quotes in the lead are now referenced to the Volkskrant article. Of course, it's in Dutch, but I can verify (as can other speakers) that the quotes are there and that they are presented fairly here. Something went wrong with the notes, though. I thought that the numbers would automatically be adjusted, but that turned out not to be the case. If anyone can fix that, I'd be grateful. Junes 21:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I archived this page, partly because this page was getting too long, partly also to get rid of the (inactive) discussions about Fortuyn that were not really related to the article. Junes 21:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
In http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pim_Fortuyn&diff=73028288&oldid=72594028 someone changed "backwards" into "retarded". How to translate Pim Fortuyn's "achterlijke" remark? Achterlijk can both be translated to retarded and to backwards, yet they have widely different meanings. How should a translation problem like this be dealt with? Frank Quist 14:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is he categorized as a catholic? Only because he was born in a catholic family and because his funeral took place in a catholic church? Not enough it seems to me. See Talk:Pim_Fortuyn/Archive1#Roman_Catholic Andries
Pim Fortuyn, while being interviewed at his home ONE week prior to his death Fortuyn was asked whether he was a religious man. He answered "No" Question: "Are you afraid to die?" (referring to the large number of death threats he received daily) Fortuyn "No, not really. My father was very religious and he had a very traumatic death, whereas my mother wasn't particularly religious and her death was quite peaceful. So I prefer to go like my mother." On DVD Gerry1211
He is listed as catholic on parlement.com, he claimed being catholic in this interview both in Dutch though. C mon 22:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
i dont know how to word this, but leefbaar rotterdam predates leefbaar nederland, so its NOT an offshoot of either leefbaar nederland or LPF.
actually, there were many 'leefbaar' parties in many different cities 'leefbaar haarlem' and so on. but because of the charismatic leader of fortuyn (he was lijsttrekker of leefbaar Rotterdam long before he went national) and perhaps the many ethnic people in rotterdam (over half of them i believe) he got about 40% of the votes, far more then in any other city, and decided to go national, and leefbaar nederland was born, wasnt long before he got kicked out^^--
Lygophile 00:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Since someone made an issue of the spelling of his last name: it is true that "ij" is baffling to non-Dutch speakers. But in fact, so is "uy" or for that matter "ui". I've tried to teach that sound to English speakers for a long time, with singular lack of success. In any case, the fact that a particular way of spelling is baffling to people doesn't change the fact that it is the spelling of the name. Paul Koning 17:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted to MWAK's version in the interests of stability, even though I think the copy edited version is better in terms of the writing. Polentario, can you say what you are trying to achieve instead of reverting back and forth? SlimVirgin talk| edits 15:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
First, animal protection zealotism played an important role in the assassination. The killer was predominatly a vegan / animal rights fanatic and not a protector of Mulims. The fact that the killer changed his statements from animal to muslim during the proceedings can be told. But he is the killer - he may lie and even as a vegan non smoker, he is no credible source. The telegraph report shows a difference (call it a bias) between its reference to "muslim" in the title and the basic facts told in the text. The text of the telegraph article (and i recommand to read it) confirms animal rights issues, van der graaf being an Animal rights Zealot (nothing about Muslims) and the family wearing fur (not bikinis) to provoke the killer. I assume it tries to do away with the fur issue - similar as it happens here.
I added the Parker article
Fortuyn presented himself in fancy clothes and a flashy lifestyle with hard-hitting views against religious puritans and a support of gay rights, legalized drugs and prostitution in a permissive dutch society. He was assassinated during the 2002 Dutch national election campaign by animal rights activist and militant vegan Volkert van der Graaf. The killer initially claimed that he opposed Fortuyn's intention to do away with restrictions of the mink fur business in Holland and then admitted in court that he murdered the Dutch Prime Ministerial candidate to "protect Muslims" [1]
Fortuyns family members wore fur coats during the proceedings to show their disdain for the murderer [2] Polentario ( talk) 16:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, if u seem to see a vet as not being a credible source - wht is your agenda? A quite biased one.
What about http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1974572.stm ?
Its similar - the whiole text about an animal rights activist and a little point about "weacker groups " in society.
For the record: Furtuyn is not Theo van Gogh, the muslim bullshit is ONLY mentioned in the title of the telegraph article - the more important issues about animal are to be found in this text as well.
What u make out of it is to bias the article even more. OK, I give up - its clear that a political aganda wins over the facts here. -- Polentario ( talk) 17:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Thats your personal POV - as said and proven you dont accept facts if they dont fit into your world view. I at least agree with the NYT. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803EED71330F93AA35756C0A9649C8B63 Polentario ( talk) 17:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
First the mentioned edit is not my original one but one already altered by somebody trying to weak the mink approach. If its about wording - I am able to adapt. Graaf claimed, not confessed in some respect and the animal issues have been confirmed explicitely by the (accepted) source of the telegraph. -- Polentario ( talk) 18:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
As a Dutch/American person who listened extensively to all Fortuyn's interviews on television, who has his books as well as a DVD of his most important interviews, I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a more biased, dumb and totally untrue description of the man, what he said and what he stood for. He did not hate Muslims. He held them accountable and required that they live according to Dutch laws, norms and values, and if they couldn't do that they had the option of leaving. The Netherlands is full, he said. Currently over 47,000 refugees have entered the Netherlands, so the nonsense that the number he quoted, was wrong. or that he referred only to Muslims is blatantly false. The descriptions that Fortuyn was a xenophobe/racist/Muslim hater were propagated by the political parties who were losing their power. They were helped by the Dutch News media who hyped it up into a frenzy, not because it was true but because it sold newspapers. All English sources are translations of those Dutch articles which had their origin from statements made by political losers. There were slugfests on television almost nightly. Case in point, the Imam, who on Dutch television, attacked Fortuyn and said "You are worse than a pig and should be slaughtered like one"! Fortuyn turned to him an very calmly said "If that is what you truly believe than your religion is retarded." The Next day, all the headlines read "Fortuyn calls Islam retarded". Not one word about what the Imam said. This is proof that Wikipedia is about as trust worthy as the local rag we pick up free at any street corner. The New York Times is not a reliable source. Neither is the BBC. Simply because Fortuyn, oddly enough, did not command the English language and refused to speak to them saying "You lie". I have made various corrections and took the liberty to somewhat streamline the poor English. However, I find that the corrections have not been accepted, which make me wonder about the agenda of those who run or control this Wikipedia. Gerry1211
--I have not misunderstood Wikepedia. Most people see Wikipedia as a definitive source. Your notion that a tertiary source reflecting "secondary sources" should be valid is preposterous. Try primary sources, i.e something out of the horse's mouth. Nothing written here on Fortuyn is based on facts. You have no sources. The Volkskrant is not a source when it quotes politicians in order to sell newspapers, neither is the BBC and certainly not the New York Times. English media simply copied whatever Dutch politicians via the media quoted. The media loves slugfests. It sells. De Telegraaf is a possible source. You have none. You are misleading the public by making assertions on a man who was brutally murdered by a radical animal rights activist as the direct result of the Dutch Government's creation of a climate of extreme hatred and vilification of him because they were losing. Fortuyn, besides being a professor, was a prolific writer. I suggest you take up the Dutch language. Here are some of his books "A hell of a Job"; "De Verweesde samenleving" ; "De Islamisering van onze Cultuur"; "De Puinhopen van Acht Jaar Paars"; "Autobiografie van een Babyboomer". That should do it. Until then please don't assume you know ANYTHING about Pim Fortuyn. I suggest that you insert, in bold, the comment that the content of this site is based on hearsay not fact. If the purpose of Wikipedia is writing nonsense then you are to be congratulated. Gerry1211 Sept.28,09
"Wikipedia articles should rely mainly on published reliable secondary sources'(bold)". There you go! Reliable?. Since when is the media reliable? There are tons of articles claiming WMD in Iraq. According to you, because they were published in the New York Times that makes them reliable. You're whole theory on Fortuyn is based on the vile rhetorical ramblings of Dutch politicians who lost power, but whose ramblings and baseless accusations were published. I rest my case. Thank you for your detailed explanation of what Wikipedia really is. You post hearsay. And, like the Dutch rags, vilifying someone seems to sell a fast deal more than any truth. Gerry1211 Sept.28, 2009
References
Unless someone can defend it, I plan to remove the desciption of Fortuyn as right wing. I realize that it's common in the news media to describe Fortuyn as right wing, but few of his views as described in this article match what is described in the Wikipedia article on the term right wing. Most flatly contradict the term right wing, as the Wikipedia article defines it -- particularly his views on drug policy, same-sex marriage, euthanasia, and compulsory military or social service. -- Tedd ( talk) 14:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
In this whole article (untill now) not a word seems to be spent to the person's declarations on subjects with noteworthy environmental and/or animal rights aspects. For instance he favoured the building of live-stock flats, thus enabling the building of even more residential area's in that allready very densely populated country, in places, where now cows and other animals mostly still can live in more or less natural meadows. About items like the anti-fur movement he was said to be kind of humiliating. -- VKing ( talk) 22:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Is Silvio Berlusconi "centre-right"??? I highly doubt it. The upper part of the article states as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.233.255.196 ( talk) 13:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Is there a reason Fortuyn's autobigraphy is not included in the list of his books?
Babyboomers: Autobiografie van een generatie www.amazon.com/dp/9022983692 www.worldcat.org/oclc/39937054
If there is not a reason for excluding it, may I suggest that it be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.70.154 ( talk) 20:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
The following statement in this section is surely contradictory?
"informant had claimed that Fortuyn had engaged in sex with under-age Moroccan youths;[38] they would be aged between 16 and 21, this was legal under Dutch law"
How can the alleged youths be both "under-age" and of legal age under Dutch law? Only one of these things can be true, if they were of legal age then the "under-age" term is incorrect and misleading - if they were under-age then the second part of the statement about ages and Dutch law is unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.252.155.147 ( talk) 23:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I suspect the following part of the article is inaccurate:
He said he was concerned about intolerance in the Muslim community. In a televised debate in 2002, "Fortuyn baited the Muslim cleric by flaunting his homosexuality. Finally the imam exploded, denouncing Fortuyn in strongly anti-homosexual terms. Fortuyn calmly turned to the camera and, addressing viewers directly, told them that this is the kind of Trojan horse of intolerance the Dutch are inviting into their society in the name of multiculturalism."
A comment above also says:
Case in point, the Imam, who on Dutch television, attacked Fortuyn and said "You are worse than a pig and should be slaughtered like one"! Fortuyn turned to him an very calmly said "If that is what you truly believe than your religion is retarded." The Next day, all the headlines read "Fortuyn calls Islam retarded".
However, I could find no trace of this televised debate on internet. I found the following source from The Guardian which says that there was indeed such an exchange (i.e. an imam called Khalil el-Moumni attacked Pim Fortuyn on his homosexuality in derogatory terms). However it looks like Fortuyn answered to him a posteriori (i.e. the exchange did not happen live on TV).
Could someone find a trace to the actual video footage of this exchange, or correct this section to more accurately describe how this exchanged happened precisely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldorado.221 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, I recently made two changes. I figured I'd comment given I'm at work and thus not logged in to anything so people know if they're reverted as 'vandalism' or any such nonsense that it's an attempt to revert them for political reasons. I am on the other side of the world, and a centrist, thus have no dog in this fight but noted that the lede of this article read as apologetica defending the murderer of this guy. Idgaf who he is, murder is a crime, and we don't use bio's to defend or excuse murders. It's irelevant to the biography what the murderer said in his trial, this man faced political violence in the past according to the rest of the article, so using the lede to allow the murderer a platform to justify his murder is absurdly POV.
I also added a bit more context to the murderer passage, it simply stated he was an 'animal rights activist' which makes no sense, why would an animal rights activist kill someone who had nothing to do with abuse of animals? But his article lists him as a radical environmentalist AND animal rights activist, radical is a bit strong although let's face it to murder someone you're clearly radicalised but I added environmentalist in to at least give it a bit more context so it doesn't sound like he got murdered for wearing fur. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 23:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Hello User:MWAK. Can you elaborate on your 06:43, 1 March 2024 revert please. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 23:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance.
The first sentence should usually state: [...] 4.One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person held, avoiding subjective or contentious terms. 5.The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.) [...] However, try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead section.
politician, author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic who founded the party Pim Fortuyn List. Six roles and a secondary notability (founder of a party).
was the first Dutch politician assassinated in essence in more than 300 years. [a]It includes his most notable role, politician, and the most notable reason he is known for, his assassination. I don't think him winning the election in Rotterdam or founding a political party is anywhere near as notable as his assassination. In addition, following the guideline, I spread relevant information to other sentences in the first paragraph of the lead.
Fortuyn was also an author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic. He founded the party Pim Fortuyn List. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 07:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Months later, Van der Graaf confessed in court to the first notable political assassination in the Netherlands since 1672 (excluding World War II). [1]
It would be absurd to limit the information to "he was a Dutch politician who was murdered".Well, except I did not write that, I wrote,
You mention in your third sentence about three centuries, but only after saying previously in the mentioned sentence that it is absurd x sentence, which is a sentence I did not write.the first Dutch politician assassinated in essence in more than 300 years.
I agree that Fortuyn was already notable and that his assassination didn't create his notability. But I don't really share that Had there been a hundred murders, his death would not have been much less noted or important.
First, the meaning of the sentence is unclear. Do you mean a single attack that resulted in 100 murders? Do you mean 100 murders in a year? Do you mean 100 politicians murdered? In a single attack? Over which period of time? Secondly, the fact there had been no assassinations of politicians for a long time made his death the more shocking and important in the Dutch psyche. Sincerely,
Thinker78
(talk) 21:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
According to the Manual of Style guidance of the first sentence, there shouldn't be overload of information and instead it should be concise. Certainly, such is determined by reasonable limits and specially consensus. My view is that the first sentence should be as concise as possible without compromising meaning or readability.
Pim Fortuyn was many things but according to one of the points in the guidance for biographies' first sentence (item 4), the information should include one, or possibly more, roles of the subject. Although it mentions possibly more, the main idea is to provide one role in the first sentence if that is enough. Only if it is not enough (key word "possibly") then it advises to include more.
If we say in the first sentence that Fortuyn was a Dutch politician who founded the Pim Fortuyn List party (not really my preference, as it introduces redundancy), the reader then will be reasonably informed as to who he was. Mentioning he was an "author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic" can be relegated to other parts of the lead in order to maximize conciseness of the first sentence without compromising proper information. Likewise if we say that he was the first Dutch politician assassinated since World War 2.
Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
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Okay, I made some additions to this article. As I said earlier on this page, I think it's a good idea to include some information on the background of his success and on his influence. Also, I have changed some bits here and there. Most notably, I removed the bit about asylum seekers numbering in the 40,000s as claimed by Fortuyn, and the comments that the number was actually in decline. While this is perfectly true, it seems a bit POV to include this directly after his statement, especially since he wanted to severely limit immigration and was presumably not very concerned about the exact number. We could still include something like it, I think, if we improve on the wording. Also, the previous wording seemed to suggest that there was something of a quota of 40,000, while this is obviously not the case. Furthermore, I think it's a bit odd and POV to go into gruesome details about the shari'a unless Fortuyn specifically mentioned those. So unless he did, I suggest we remove that comment as well. Junes 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I think tis article is actually pretty NPOV now, and the notice should be removed. I'll add a comment on the talk page of the anon who included it. Junes 14:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
The man has written a number of books in his lifetime. Should we include a list, even though they haven't been translated into English (yet)? And give a quick summary of each one as well?
I reverted the additions on Fortuyn's alleged defense of pedophilia, which have been added twice by User:195.93.21.71. I'm not sure, but the quotes seem to have been taken out of context and used as a smear against Fortuyn. It could very well be that Fortuyn held supportive views of pedophilia; we know that he was rather liberal both in behavior and thinking when it came to sex or drugs, so I guess it's not inconceivable. However, this is rather irrelevant since AFAIK it has never been the subject of public discussion or controversy. So I don't think it belongs here, and certainly not at that length in the introduction. Junes 20:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
So now that there is some more evidence regarding Fortuyn's escapades with minors, I tried to rewrite the new section about it to include some of the old stuff. In retrospect, it might have been better to rewrite the allegations instead of deleting them outright. I apologize for that.
Anyhow, I rewrote the section avoiding the word pedophilia. Although this label is often incorrectly applied to any sort of sex with minors, it really applies to sex with prepubescent children. Being attracted to teenage boys or girls is fairly common, while pedophilia is relatively rare. I strongly suspect that any sex that Fortuyn might have been engaged in, would have been with boys in their teens (although I haven't reviewed Peter R. de Vries' claims in detail. Junes 17:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Edited introduction and biography for clarity and grammar. Erdapfelgal 12:09, 8 November 2005
Edited the section about the significance of the fact that it was a political murder; Excluding WWII, it was appartantly the first peacetime political murder in the Netherlands since the lynching of the De Witt brothers in The Hague in 1672! More them 300 years.
Well, if the references brought forward above are not enough, then i do not know how the wikipedia in general can move forward. Agree that it is a difficult fact to prove and that there has already been another possible political killing (in Nijmegen) recently. But in all fairness, can i rephrase the sentence slightly and re-introduce it?-- Prudentia 01:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
As you mentioned earlier, it is very fifficult to varify, but I agree wit h your comments. Let's leave it like this for the time being, since i hope all involved in the discussion can agree with this line. BTW: the word atrocities could have been used for Dutch as well as German ones, but no disagreement from this side against the word 'events'.-- Prudentia 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Should this article also not mention that before LPF and even Leefbaar Nederland, Pim Fortuyn had been a member of PvdA as well?
I re-added the De Vries stuff which was taken out, although I left out the reference to the Scotsman; I don't feel that this article has received enough attention in the mainstream press, and including the piece seemed to suggest that Fortuyn might have had with minors after all. Furthermore, the quotes in the lead are now referenced to the Volkskrant article. Of course, it's in Dutch, but I can verify (as can other speakers) that the quotes are there and that they are presented fairly here. Something went wrong with the notes, though. I thought that the numbers would automatically be adjusted, but that turned out not to be the case. If anyone can fix that, I'd be grateful. Junes 21:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I archived this page, partly because this page was getting too long, partly also to get rid of the (inactive) discussions about Fortuyn that were not really related to the article. Junes 21:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
In http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pim_Fortuyn&diff=73028288&oldid=72594028 someone changed "backwards" into "retarded". How to translate Pim Fortuyn's "achterlijke" remark? Achterlijk can both be translated to retarded and to backwards, yet they have widely different meanings. How should a translation problem like this be dealt with? Frank Quist 14:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is he categorized as a catholic? Only because he was born in a catholic family and because his funeral took place in a catholic church? Not enough it seems to me. See Talk:Pim_Fortuyn/Archive1#Roman_Catholic Andries
Pim Fortuyn, while being interviewed at his home ONE week prior to his death Fortuyn was asked whether he was a religious man. He answered "No" Question: "Are you afraid to die?" (referring to the large number of death threats he received daily) Fortuyn "No, not really. My father was very religious and he had a very traumatic death, whereas my mother wasn't particularly religious and her death was quite peaceful. So I prefer to go like my mother." On DVD Gerry1211
He is listed as catholic on parlement.com, he claimed being catholic in this interview both in Dutch though. C mon 22:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
i dont know how to word this, but leefbaar rotterdam predates leefbaar nederland, so its NOT an offshoot of either leefbaar nederland or LPF.
actually, there were many 'leefbaar' parties in many different cities 'leefbaar haarlem' and so on. but because of the charismatic leader of fortuyn (he was lijsttrekker of leefbaar Rotterdam long before he went national) and perhaps the many ethnic people in rotterdam (over half of them i believe) he got about 40% of the votes, far more then in any other city, and decided to go national, and leefbaar nederland was born, wasnt long before he got kicked out^^--
Lygophile 00:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Since someone made an issue of the spelling of his last name: it is true that "ij" is baffling to non-Dutch speakers. But in fact, so is "uy" or for that matter "ui". I've tried to teach that sound to English speakers for a long time, with singular lack of success. In any case, the fact that a particular way of spelling is baffling to people doesn't change the fact that it is the spelling of the name. Paul Koning 17:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted to MWAK's version in the interests of stability, even though I think the copy edited version is better in terms of the writing. Polentario, can you say what you are trying to achieve instead of reverting back and forth? SlimVirgin talk| edits 15:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
First, animal protection zealotism played an important role in the assassination. The killer was predominatly a vegan / animal rights fanatic and not a protector of Mulims. The fact that the killer changed his statements from animal to muslim during the proceedings can be told. But he is the killer - he may lie and even as a vegan non smoker, he is no credible source. The telegraph report shows a difference (call it a bias) between its reference to "muslim" in the title and the basic facts told in the text. The text of the telegraph article (and i recommand to read it) confirms animal rights issues, van der graaf being an Animal rights Zealot (nothing about Muslims) and the family wearing fur (not bikinis) to provoke the killer. I assume it tries to do away with the fur issue - similar as it happens here.
I added the Parker article
Fortuyn presented himself in fancy clothes and a flashy lifestyle with hard-hitting views against religious puritans and a support of gay rights, legalized drugs and prostitution in a permissive dutch society. He was assassinated during the 2002 Dutch national election campaign by animal rights activist and militant vegan Volkert van der Graaf. The killer initially claimed that he opposed Fortuyn's intention to do away with restrictions of the mink fur business in Holland and then admitted in court that he murdered the Dutch Prime Ministerial candidate to "protect Muslims" [1]
Fortuyns family members wore fur coats during the proceedings to show their disdain for the murderer [2] Polentario ( talk) 16:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, if u seem to see a vet as not being a credible source - wht is your agenda? A quite biased one.
What about http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1974572.stm ?
Its similar - the whiole text about an animal rights activist and a little point about "weacker groups " in society.
For the record: Furtuyn is not Theo van Gogh, the muslim bullshit is ONLY mentioned in the title of the telegraph article - the more important issues about animal are to be found in this text as well.
What u make out of it is to bias the article even more. OK, I give up - its clear that a political aganda wins over the facts here. -- Polentario ( talk) 17:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Thats your personal POV - as said and proven you dont accept facts if they dont fit into your world view. I at least agree with the NYT. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803EED71330F93AA35756C0A9649C8B63 Polentario ( talk) 17:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
First the mentioned edit is not my original one but one already altered by somebody trying to weak the mink approach. If its about wording - I am able to adapt. Graaf claimed, not confessed in some respect and the animal issues have been confirmed explicitely by the (accepted) source of the telegraph. -- Polentario ( talk) 18:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
As a Dutch/American person who listened extensively to all Fortuyn's interviews on television, who has his books as well as a DVD of his most important interviews, I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a more biased, dumb and totally untrue description of the man, what he said and what he stood for. He did not hate Muslims. He held them accountable and required that they live according to Dutch laws, norms and values, and if they couldn't do that they had the option of leaving. The Netherlands is full, he said. Currently over 47,000 refugees have entered the Netherlands, so the nonsense that the number he quoted, was wrong. or that he referred only to Muslims is blatantly false. The descriptions that Fortuyn was a xenophobe/racist/Muslim hater were propagated by the political parties who were losing their power. They were helped by the Dutch News media who hyped it up into a frenzy, not because it was true but because it sold newspapers. All English sources are translations of those Dutch articles which had their origin from statements made by political losers. There were slugfests on television almost nightly. Case in point, the Imam, who on Dutch television, attacked Fortuyn and said "You are worse than a pig and should be slaughtered like one"! Fortuyn turned to him an very calmly said "If that is what you truly believe than your religion is retarded." The Next day, all the headlines read "Fortuyn calls Islam retarded". Not one word about what the Imam said. This is proof that Wikipedia is about as trust worthy as the local rag we pick up free at any street corner. The New York Times is not a reliable source. Neither is the BBC. Simply because Fortuyn, oddly enough, did not command the English language and refused to speak to them saying "You lie". I have made various corrections and took the liberty to somewhat streamline the poor English. However, I find that the corrections have not been accepted, which make me wonder about the agenda of those who run or control this Wikipedia. Gerry1211
--I have not misunderstood Wikepedia. Most people see Wikipedia as a definitive source. Your notion that a tertiary source reflecting "secondary sources" should be valid is preposterous. Try primary sources, i.e something out of the horse's mouth. Nothing written here on Fortuyn is based on facts. You have no sources. The Volkskrant is not a source when it quotes politicians in order to sell newspapers, neither is the BBC and certainly not the New York Times. English media simply copied whatever Dutch politicians via the media quoted. The media loves slugfests. It sells. De Telegraaf is a possible source. You have none. You are misleading the public by making assertions on a man who was brutally murdered by a radical animal rights activist as the direct result of the Dutch Government's creation of a climate of extreme hatred and vilification of him because they were losing. Fortuyn, besides being a professor, was a prolific writer. I suggest you take up the Dutch language. Here are some of his books "A hell of a Job"; "De Verweesde samenleving" ; "De Islamisering van onze Cultuur"; "De Puinhopen van Acht Jaar Paars"; "Autobiografie van een Babyboomer". That should do it. Until then please don't assume you know ANYTHING about Pim Fortuyn. I suggest that you insert, in bold, the comment that the content of this site is based on hearsay not fact. If the purpose of Wikipedia is writing nonsense then you are to be congratulated. Gerry1211 Sept.28,09
"Wikipedia articles should rely mainly on published reliable secondary sources'(bold)". There you go! Reliable?. Since when is the media reliable? There are tons of articles claiming WMD in Iraq. According to you, because they were published in the New York Times that makes them reliable. You're whole theory on Fortuyn is based on the vile rhetorical ramblings of Dutch politicians who lost power, but whose ramblings and baseless accusations were published. I rest my case. Thank you for your detailed explanation of what Wikipedia really is. You post hearsay. And, like the Dutch rags, vilifying someone seems to sell a fast deal more than any truth. Gerry1211 Sept.28, 2009
References
Unless someone can defend it, I plan to remove the desciption of Fortuyn as right wing. I realize that it's common in the news media to describe Fortuyn as right wing, but few of his views as described in this article match what is described in the Wikipedia article on the term right wing. Most flatly contradict the term right wing, as the Wikipedia article defines it -- particularly his views on drug policy, same-sex marriage, euthanasia, and compulsory military or social service. -- Tedd ( talk) 14:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
In this whole article (untill now) not a word seems to be spent to the person's declarations on subjects with noteworthy environmental and/or animal rights aspects. For instance he favoured the building of live-stock flats, thus enabling the building of even more residential area's in that allready very densely populated country, in places, where now cows and other animals mostly still can live in more or less natural meadows. About items like the anti-fur movement he was said to be kind of humiliating. -- VKing ( talk) 22:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Is Silvio Berlusconi "centre-right"??? I highly doubt it. The upper part of the article states as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.233.255.196 ( talk) 13:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Is there a reason Fortuyn's autobigraphy is not included in the list of his books?
Babyboomers: Autobiografie van een generatie www.amazon.com/dp/9022983692 www.worldcat.org/oclc/39937054
If there is not a reason for excluding it, may I suggest that it be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.70.154 ( talk) 20:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
The following statement in this section is surely contradictory?
"informant had claimed that Fortuyn had engaged in sex with under-age Moroccan youths;[38] they would be aged between 16 and 21, this was legal under Dutch law"
How can the alleged youths be both "under-age" and of legal age under Dutch law? Only one of these things can be true, if they were of legal age then the "under-age" term is incorrect and misleading - if they were under-age then the second part of the statement about ages and Dutch law is unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.252.155.147 ( talk) 23:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I suspect the following part of the article is inaccurate:
He said he was concerned about intolerance in the Muslim community. In a televised debate in 2002, "Fortuyn baited the Muslim cleric by flaunting his homosexuality. Finally the imam exploded, denouncing Fortuyn in strongly anti-homosexual terms. Fortuyn calmly turned to the camera and, addressing viewers directly, told them that this is the kind of Trojan horse of intolerance the Dutch are inviting into their society in the name of multiculturalism."
A comment above also says:
Case in point, the Imam, who on Dutch television, attacked Fortuyn and said "You are worse than a pig and should be slaughtered like one"! Fortuyn turned to him an very calmly said "If that is what you truly believe than your religion is retarded." The Next day, all the headlines read "Fortuyn calls Islam retarded".
However, I could find no trace of this televised debate on internet. I found the following source from The Guardian which says that there was indeed such an exchange (i.e. an imam called Khalil el-Moumni attacked Pim Fortuyn on his homosexuality in derogatory terms). However it looks like Fortuyn answered to him a posteriori (i.e. the exchange did not happen live on TV).
Could someone find a trace to the actual video footage of this exchange, or correct this section to more accurately describe how this exchanged happened precisely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldorado.221 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, I recently made two changes. I figured I'd comment given I'm at work and thus not logged in to anything so people know if they're reverted as 'vandalism' or any such nonsense that it's an attempt to revert them for political reasons. I am on the other side of the world, and a centrist, thus have no dog in this fight but noted that the lede of this article read as apologetica defending the murderer of this guy. Idgaf who he is, murder is a crime, and we don't use bio's to defend or excuse murders. It's irelevant to the biography what the murderer said in his trial, this man faced political violence in the past according to the rest of the article, so using the lede to allow the murderer a platform to justify his murder is absurdly POV.
I also added a bit more context to the murderer passage, it simply stated he was an 'animal rights activist' which makes no sense, why would an animal rights activist kill someone who had nothing to do with abuse of animals? But his article lists him as a radical environmentalist AND animal rights activist, radical is a bit strong although let's face it to murder someone you're clearly radicalised but I added environmentalist in to at least give it a bit more context so it doesn't sound like he got murdered for wearing fur. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 23:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Hello User:MWAK. Can you elaborate on your 06:43, 1 March 2024 revert please. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 23:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance.
The first sentence should usually state: [...] 4.One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person held, avoiding subjective or contentious terms. 5.The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.) [...] However, try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead section.
politician, author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic who founded the party Pim Fortuyn List. Six roles and a secondary notability (founder of a party).
was the first Dutch politician assassinated in essence in more than 300 years. [a]It includes his most notable role, politician, and the most notable reason he is known for, his assassination. I don't think him winning the election in Rotterdam or founding a political party is anywhere near as notable as his assassination. In addition, following the guideline, I spread relevant information to other sentences in the first paragraph of the lead.
Fortuyn was also an author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic. He founded the party Pim Fortuyn List. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 07:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Months later, Van der Graaf confessed in court to the first notable political assassination in the Netherlands since 1672 (excluding World War II). [1]
It would be absurd to limit the information to "he was a Dutch politician who was murdered".Well, except I did not write that, I wrote,
You mention in your third sentence about three centuries, but only after saying previously in the mentioned sentence that it is absurd x sentence, which is a sentence I did not write.the first Dutch politician assassinated in essence in more than 300 years.
I agree that Fortuyn was already notable and that his assassination didn't create his notability. But I don't really share that Had there been a hundred murders, his death would not have been much less noted or important.
First, the meaning of the sentence is unclear. Do you mean a single attack that resulted in 100 murders? Do you mean 100 murders in a year? Do you mean 100 politicians murdered? In a single attack? Over which period of time? Secondly, the fact there had been no assassinations of politicians for a long time made his death the more shocking and important in the Dutch psyche. Sincerely,
Thinker78
(talk) 21:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
According to the Manual of Style guidance of the first sentence, there shouldn't be overload of information and instead it should be concise. Certainly, such is determined by reasonable limits and specially consensus. My view is that the first sentence should be as concise as possible without compromising meaning or readability.
Pim Fortuyn was many things but according to one of the points in the guidance for biographies' first sentence (item 4), the information should include one, or possibly more, roles of the subject. Although it mentions possibly more, the main idea is to provide one role in the first sentence if that is enough. Only if it is not enough (key word "possibly") then it advises to include more.
If we say in the first sentence that Fortuyn was a Dutch politician who founded the Pim Fortuyn List party (not really my preference, as it introduces redundancy), the reader then will be reasonably informed as to who he was. Mentioning he was an "author, civil servant, businessman, sociologist and academic" can be relegated to other parts of the lead in order to maximize conciseness of the first sentence without compromising proper information. Likewise if we say that he was the first Dutch politician assassinated since World War 2.
Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
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