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Can someone please explain where this comes from? Without a source indicated, I have to suspect copyvio + machine translation. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:29, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I give up trying to correct or edit this article... on one hand it seems to contain a lot of detailed and interesting information, but on the other hand, the grammar is simply atrocious, much text is completely incomprehensible, and a few oddities (e.g., claims that Baekje and Silla, located in southern Korea, had somehow exerted influence over Outer Manchuria; or mentions of the Manchu "provinces" of Hulun and East Tartary, which never actually existed) make me doubt the credibility of this entire article. I'm tempted to delete most of it and start over. What does everyone think? -- ran ( talk) 20:37, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Remove irrendendist claims. There isn't an active irrendenist movement over these territories.
Roadrunner 05:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs to be sourced
Roadrunner 05:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this supposed micronation really be mentioned in the article? Even if it exists, a "state" controlling no territory, recognised by nobody and with a national income consisting of Paypal donations is not exactly notable... Moyabrit ( talk) 12:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There are very few google scholar hits for this term, and those that predate the creation of this article seem to be rather ambigious about what "Outer Manchuria" actually is. E.g. "Li Longyun was born in 1948 in Beijing. In 1968, like many urban youth of his gener- ation, he was sent down to a military farm in the Great Northern Wilderness of outer Manchuria to accept reeducation from farmers and soldiers during the Cultural Revolution." [1] sounds pretty much as if the "Outer Manchuria" Li Longyun was sent to is not part of Russia. Yaan ( talk) 00:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm coming to the same "neologism" conclusion in 2023. I called this a neologism on Wiktionary
[2] because of the cites here:
[3] some of which are discussed above!
I would contest @
Atla5Atla5:'s statement from 18 December 2011 (I'm writing on 31 May 2023, about 11 & 1/2 years later after that editor's comment) that "Juha Janhunen, arguably the foremost expert on the languages of the region, has used it unambiguously in 1996 to refer to the area north of the Amur and east of the Ussuri."
Janhunen's work Manchuria: An Ethnic History, seems at a glance to be an extraordinarily erudite and remarkable work on Manchuria. To give you an idea of unusual nature of this work, in Janhunen's view, beside the "Continental Manchuria", Japan, Korea, the Shandong Peninsula, Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands are part of what she terms "Insular" and "Peninsular" Manchuria (see map on page 2 and several others). Then: on page 6,
Juha Janhunen wrote: "The passage towards the south is somewhat less restricted, allowing, for certain purposes, the two subregions of Southern and Central Manchuria to be viewed as a single complex which may be termed Inner Manchuria,⁸ as opposed to the periphery or Outer Manchuria." When Janhunen speaks of Southern and Central Manchuria, she is referring to those concepts as she understands them on her page 2 map. Later, on page 227, she uses "Outer and Insular Manchuria" as if Insular Manchuria is not included within Outer Manchuria, implying that her "Outer Manchuria" is purely within Continental Manchuria. That is: Inner Manchuria is Southern and Central Manchuria, and Outer Manchuria is the rest of Continental Manchuria, minus Insular & Peninsular Manchuria (to think otherwise would make JAPAN itself part of Outer Manchuria, LMAO).
So, what's left in her conceptition of Continental Manchuria, beside Southern and Central? She has three other Manchurias: Western Manchuria, Northern Manchuria and Eastern Manchuria. According to the map on page 2 of her work Manchuria: An Ethnic History, Western Manchuria includes
Hailar and Hulun explicitly, basically the northwestern part of northeast China that abuts Mongolia. Note that it does not reach Lake Baikal. Then, Northern Manchuria includes areas that are certainly in Russia, BUT it also includes areas on the southern side of the Amur River, like Mohe and areas along the river. Then, Eastern Manchuria includes Russian Maritime Province and all those areas, but it also includes A LOT of easten Heilongjiang Province,--- for instance, all of the area surrounding Lake Khanka is in Eastern Manchuria. Heixiazi is basically at the center point of Janhunen's Eastern Manchuria. SO: the point is this: If Janhunen's conception of Outer Manchuria includes Hailar, Mohe, big parts of Heilongjiang, and all of Lake Khanka plus Maritime Province, the coast, and all that, then, yes, Atla5Atla5 is kinda right that Janhunen "unambiguously" used 'Outer Manchuria' to refer "to the area north of the Amur and east of the Ussuri." BUT not exclusively! Her conception of Outer Manchuria does NOT align with the modern neologism of "the territories ceded in 1858/1860" because Janhunen's "Outer Manchuria" DOES NOT include Sakhalin and DOES include Hailar, Hulun, Mohe, all of Lake Khanka, and big parts of Heilongjiang Province.
Now: whether Janhunen's work inspired the 2004 creator of this Wikipedia entry to create this entry, I cannot say. But no, no, no: This is NOT Janhunen's concept of Outer Manchuria. She's writing an elite scholarly work where she's including Korea, Shandong, Japan, and etc in Manchuria, and where her concept of Outer Manchuria includes big parts of not just Russia, but also China, maybe a little Mongolia, and NOT Sakhalin. So: her concept is NOT this entry's concept.
Geographyinitiative (
talk)
20:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
This IP edit, while purporting to make the article more neutral, appears quite suspicious: at best it simply exchanges one (the pro-Chinese) for another (the pro-Russian) POV, at worst it introduces a Russian POV. It also removes some parts without explanation, nor any apparent reason. Revert? -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The redirect Amurland points here, and a fair number of articles link to that redirect. Is it accurate to say that Amurland is a (probably archaic) name for this area? If so, this article would ideally say that. -- Finlay McWalter··–· Talk 13:09, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I believe, based on original research from collecting sources at Wiktionary's Citations:Outer Manchuria entry, that 'Outer Manchuria' (as a reference to the territories ceded by China to Russia in 1858/1860) did not exist before this English Wikipedia article was created in 2004, and grew into an instance of citogenesis, with Americans like Kissinger and Bolton and others in the foreign policy establishment using the term. I'm not sure what the correct thing to do at this point is. Note: I'm not denying that the area was considered part of Manchuria. That's fine. But I'm only denying that the term "Outer Manchuria" ever meant "the areas ceded by China to Russia in 1858 & 1860" until the year 2004. (@ Cullen328:). I have attempted to add a kind of stop-gap fix to the entry with the wording "so-called" and two cites from Kissinger and Bolton. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 07:24, 27 May 2023 (UTC) (Modified)
See [4]. 8 placenames are required to display both Russian and (historial) Chinese names by modern Chinese Map standard. For all of them see Template:Chinese historical placenames in Outer Manchuria. Sakhalin is one of them. ibicdlcod ( talk) 14:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Ibicdlcod: Check out this map, which tries to exhaustively describe Qing/Manchu holdings in 1820. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 12:37, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Gryffindor: Thank you for your edit. I made a rewording- see if you like it. In this edit: [5] you remove "so-called" from the beginning of the article. You note that "No article starts with "so-called", explain nuances in article itself at a later point." But the very issue is that this is not a legitimate academic term and is a Wikipedia citogenesis. The term itself is prejudiced toward one party and this sense of this term did not exist before this article was created on Wikipedia. So it's something that needs to be addressed FAST so that the reader is on guard that this is a concept of dubious academic merit. Let me know what you think of my justification, and let me know if you have alternative suggestions for making it clear to the reader that they are reading about a dubious geographical conceptualization. To not have a preface or clarification of this sort immediately reads those bolded words "Outer Manchuria" in the voice of Wikipedia in a way that is disingenuous, because it acts as if the term is a bona fide legitimate geographical term, like "West Texas". Outer Manchuria does not appear in atlases, it does not appear on maps, it does not appear in academic papers. It is not anywhere, except here, at the citogenesis source. I have removed a lot of filler text that was uncited and was related to other articles. -- Geographyinitiative ( talk) 19:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
This issue is easy to demagogue. However, I sincerely feel that this is the intellectually and ethically wise choice for Wikipedia to make. Using a holistic approach and employing cautious circumspection and a general appreciation for clear thinking, wisdom and fairmindedness: THIS is the established term for 150 years. Despite all the fun discussions I've had with all kinds of different Wikipedia and Wiktionary editors, no one but me myself has lifted a finger to edit the Outer Manchuria (now Russian Manchuria (Russia)) page itself in the sense of adding new references or citations, and this is what I feel is the right decision. The article and the topic itself have been languishing for 19 years because it's got the wrong title! To those who want to change it back: If you cared about this article before, why did it not have any legitimate citations until I added them? Bolton's putting "outer" in scare quotes in 2023 people. This rename should satisfy some of the people in the merge discussion who want a page and dont like the title of entry but do think there should be such an entry. After careful consideration and using about fifty to a hundred references and by using a holistic approach consistent with accepted Wikipedia practice, including npov, and with due consideration and respect for the potential geopolitical ramifications and the wishes and thoughts of the editors who have shown interest in this issue to date, I think this is the academically sound and ethically correct decision. I'm the only editor I know of who has the sufficient requisite knowledge to make this decision. Most other editors are only looking at this issue from a tangential perspective. In my case, I have done extensive citations for Mandarin-derived English language words relating to Russian Manchuria, including Haishenwai, the name for Vladivostok. The article cannot flourish with the faked name as the entry title. My biases: I personally feel that this region or part of this region should probably have been returned to Manchuria (China/PRC and/or Taiwan/ROC) by the Russian Empire or USSR, but that now given the time elapsed, the territory is probably genuinely Russian on some level, if there could be a "statute of limitations" on such questions, and further that considering the treaties done by China PRC under Jiang Zemin, this really is Russia under international law. Also, I oppose the CCP's rhetoric on Taiwan and the South China Sea claims and am inclined to view other similar claims in a skeptical light. There can be two names for one place. And just because one is popularized in recent years does not mean that the new name is the actual name. The new name definitely deserves a spot on the entry, but does not supplant the name used for a hundred and fifty years. But when the Wikipedia entry title is a neologism made up on Wikipedia and spread by citogenesis, something strange is happening. And this may not be the correct decision in the future! Maybe it needs to be adjusted later! But for me, today, given what I've seen, given the people I've spoken with, I feel that this is what a true, objective encyclopedia would look like. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 16:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus below appears to support the move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 02:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian Manchuria (Russia) → Outer Manchuria – Revert unilateral move by User:Geographyinitiative, discuss it first. Sources provided all mention "Outer Manchuria" as terminology. Gryffindor ( talk) 14:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
This sentence requires clarification, "In 1854, the Tartar-general of Heilungkiang memorialized that the only way to stop Russian expansion into the region was to bring Han Chinese settlers to the unpopulated areas." Who was this and what exactly is a "Tartar-general"? Is this some British Victorian attempt to translate an actual Chinese imperial title?
Also, I often see the word "memorialized" (evidently an attempt to translate a Chinese verb) used instead of the more idiomatic "reported" in many British sources on Imperial China, even some as reputable as Arthur Waley. Wouldn't it be better to modernize the verb to "reported", since, AFAIK, "memorialized" is not standard as a description of preparing an official government document or report in 21st century English? I haven't changed it because I kind of like the quaintness of "memorialized," but what would the consensus be? Pascalulu88 ( talk) 17:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
the Tartar-general of Heilungkiang memorialized in vain that the only way to prevent Russian absorption...Looking at online dictionaries, it seems that "memorialize" is now archaic but did essentially mean "wrote a memo", so it's not a translation issue. Unfortunately, the more significant issue of "what is a Tartar-general" remains unresolved. The text in question otherwise refers to Tatars as Tatars, not Tartars, so it's not clear if this is simply a typo or an intent do denote something else. I'm afraid that confirming what happened here is going to take a non-trivial amount of research using other sources describing the same time period. signed, Rosguill talk 18:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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Can someone please explain where this comes from? Without a source indicated, I have to suspect copyvio + machine translation. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:29, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I give up trying to correct or edit this article... on one hand it seems to contain a lot of detailed and interesting information, but on the other hand, the grammar is simply atrocious, much text is completely incomprehensible, and a few oddities (e.g., claims that Baekje and Silla, located in southern Korea, had somehow exerted influence over Outer Manchuria; or mentions of the Manchu "provinces" of Hulun and East Tartary, which never actually existed) make me doubt the credibility of this entire article. I'm tempted to delete most of it and start over. What does everyone think? -- ran ( talk) 20:37, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Remove irrendendist claims. There isn't an active irrendenist movement over these territories.
Roadrunner 05:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This needs to be sourced
Roadrunner 05:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this supposed micronation really be mentioned in the article? Even if it exists, a "state" controlling no territory, recognised by nobody and with a national income consisting of Paypal donations is not exactly notable... Moyabrit ( talk) 12:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There are very few google scholar hits for this term, and those that predate the creation of this article seem to be rather ambigious about what "Outer Manchuria" actually is. E.g. "Li Longyun was born in 1948 in Beijing. In 1968, like many urban youth of his gener- ation, he was sent down to a military farm in the Great Northern Wilderness of outer Manchuria to accept reeducation from farmers and soldiers during the Cultural Revolution." [1] sounds pretty much as if the "Outer Manchuria" Li Longyun was sent to is not part of Russia. Yaan ( talk) 00:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm coming to the same "neologism" conclusion in 2023. I called this a neologism on Wiktionary
[2] because of the cites here:
[3] some of which are discussed above!
I would contest @
Atla5Atla5:'s statement from 18 December 2011 (I'm writing on 31 May 2023, about 11 & 1/2 years later after that editor's comment) that "Juha Janhunen, arguably the foremost expert on the languages of the region, has used it unambiguously in 1996 to refer to the area north of the Amur and east of the Ussuri."
Janhunen's work Manchuria: An Ethnic History, seems at a glance to be an extraordinarily erudite and remarkable work on Manchuria. To give you an idea of unusual nature of this work, in Janhunen's view, beside the "Continental Manchuria", Japan, Korea, the Shandong Peninsula, Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands are part of what she terms "Insular" and "Peninsular" Manchuria (see map on page 2 and several others). Then: on page 6,
Juha Janhunen wrote: "The passage towards the south is somewhat less restricted, allowing, for certain purposes, the two subregions of Southern and Central Manchuria to be viewed as a single complex which may be termed Inner Manchuria,⁸ as opposed to the periphery or Outer Manchuria." When Janhunen speaks of Southern and Central Manchuria, she is referring to those concepts as she understands them on her page 2 map. Later, on page 227, she uses "Outer and Insular Manchuria" as if Insular Manchuria is not included within Outer Manchuria, implying that her "Outer Manchuria" is purely within Continental Manchuria. That is: Inner Manchuria is Southern and Central Manchuria, and Outer Manchuria is the rest of Continental Manchuria, minus Insular & Peninsular Manchuria (to think otherwise would make JAPAN itself part of Outer Manchuria, LMAO).
So, what's left in her conceptition of Continental Manchuria, beside Southern and Central? She has three other Manchurias: Western Manchuria, Northern Manchuria and Eastern Manchuria. According to the map on page 2 of her work Manchuria: An Ethnic History, Western Manchuria includes
Hailar and Hulun explicitly, basically the northwestern part of northeast China that abuts Mongolia. Note that it does not reach Lake Baikal. Then, Northern Manchuria includes areas that are certainly in Russia, BUT it also includes areas on the southern side of the Amur River, like Mohe and areas along the river. Then, Eastern Manchuria includes Russian Maritime Province and all those areas, but it also includes A LOT of easten Heilongjiang Province,--- for instance, all of the area surrounding Lake Khanka is in Eastern Manchuria. Heixiazi is basically at the center point of Janhunen's Eastern Manchuria. SO: the point is this: If Janhunen's conception of Outer Manchuria includes Hailar, Mohe, big parts of Heilongjiang, and all of Lake Khanka plus Maritime Province, the coast, and all that, then, yes, Atla5Atla5 is kinda right that Janhunen "unambiguously" used 'Outer Manchuria' to refer "to the area north of the Amur and east of the Ussuri." BUT not exclusively! Her conception of Outer Manchuria does NOT align with the modern neologism of "the territories ceded in 1858/1860" because Janhunen's "Outer Manchuria" DOES NOT include Sakhalin and DOES include Hailar, Hulun, Mohe, all of Lake Khanka, and big parts of Heilongjiang Province.
Now: whether Janhunen's work inspired the 2004 creator of this Wikipedia entry to create this entry, I cannot say. But no, no, no: This is NOT Janhunen's concept of Outer Manchuria. She's writing an elite scholarly work where she's including Korea, Shandong, Japan, and etc in Manchuria, and where her concept of Outer Manchuria includes big parts of not just Russia, but also China, maybe a little Mongolia, and NOT Sakhalin. So: her concept is NOT this entry's concept.
Geographyinitiative (
talk)
20:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
This IP edit, while purporting to make the article more neutral, appears quite suspicious: at best it simply exchanges one (the pro-Chinese) for another (the pro-Russian) POV, at worst it introduces a Russian POV. It also removes some parts without explanation, nor any apparent reason. Revert? -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The redirect Amurland points here, and a fair number of articles link to that redirect. Is it accurate to say that Amurland is a (probably archaic) name for this area? If so, this article would ideally say that. -- Finlay McWalter··–· Talk 13:09, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I believe, based on original research from collecting sources at Wiktionary's Citations:Outer Manchuria entry, that 'Outer Manchuria' (as a reference to the territories ceded by China to Russia in 1858/1860) did not exist before this English Wikipedia article was created in 2004, and grew into an instance of citogenesis, with Americans like Kissinger and Bolton and others in the foreign policy establishment using the term. I'm not sure what the correct thing to do at this point is. Note: I'm not denying that the area was considered part of Manchuria. That's fine. But I'm only denying that the term "Outer Manchuria" ever meant "the areas ceded by China to Russia in 1858 & 1860" until the year 2004. (@ Cullen328:). I have attempted to add a kind of stop-gap fix to the entry with the wording "so-called" and two cites from Kissinger and Bolton. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 07:24, 27 May 2023 (UTC) (Modified)
See [4]. 8 placenames are required to display both Russian and (historial) Chinese names by modern Chinese Map standard. For all of them see Template:Chinese historical placenames in Outer Manchuria. Sakhalin is one of them. ibicdlcod ( talk) 14:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Ibicdlcod: Check out this map, which tries to exhaustively describe Qing/Manchu holdings in 1820. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 12:37, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Gryffindor: Thank you for your edit. I made a rewording- see if you like it. In this edit: [5] you remove "so-called" from the beginning of the article. You note that "No article starts with "so-called", explain nuances in article itself at a later point." But the very issue is that this is not a legitimate academic term and is a Wikipedia citogenesis. The term itself is prejudiced toward one party and this sense of this term did not exist before this article was created on Wikipedia. So it's something that needs to be addressed FAST so that the reader is on guard that this is a concept of dubious academic merit. Let me know what you think of my justification, and let me know if you have alternative suggestions for making it clear to the reader that they are reading about a dubious geographical conceptualization. To not have a preface or clarification of this sort immediately reads those bolded words "Outer Manchuria" in the voice of Wikipedia in a way that is disingenuous, because it acts as if the term is a bona fide legitimate geographical term, like "West Texas". Outer Manchuria does not appear in atlases, it does not appear on maps, it does not appear in academic papers. It is not anywhere, except here, at the citogenesis source. I have removed a lot of filler text that was uncited and was related to other articles. -- Geographyinitiative ( talk) 19:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
This issue is easy to demagogue. However, I sincerely feel that this is the intellectually and ethically wise choice for Wikipedia to make. Using a holistic approach and employing cautious circumspection and a general appreciation for clear thinking, wisdom and fairmindedness: THIS is the established term for 150 years. Despite all the fun discussions I've had with all kinds of different Wikipedia and Wiktionary editors, no one but me myself has lifted a finger to edit the Outer Manchuria (now Russian Manchuria (Russia)) page itself in the sense of adding new references or citations, and this is what I feel is the right decision. The article and the topic itself have been languishing for 19 years because it's got the wrong title! To those who want to change it back: If you cared about this article before, why did it not have any legitimate citations until I added them? Bolton's putting "outer" in scare quotes in 2023 people. This rename should satisfy some of the people in the merge discussion who want a page and dont like the title of entry but do think there should be such an entry. After careful consideration and using about fifty to a hundred references and by using a holistic approach consistent with accepted Wikipedia practice, including npov, and with due consideration and respect for the potential geopolitical ramifications and the wishes and thoughts of the editors who have shown interest in this issue to date, I think this is the academically sound and ethically correct decision. I'm the only editor I know of who has the sufficient requisite knowledge to make this decision. Most other editors are only looking at this issue from a tangential perspective. In my case, I have done extensive citations for Mandarin-derived English language words relating to Russian Manchuria, including Haishenwai, the name for Vladivostok. The article cannot flourish with the faked name as the entry title. My biases: I personally feel that this region or part of this region should probably have been returned to Manchuria (China/PRC and/or Taiwan/ROC) by the Russian Empire or USSR, but that now given the time elapsed, the territory is probably genuinely Russian on some level, if there could be a "statute of limitations" on such questions, and further that considering the treaties done by China PRC under Jiang Zemin, this really is Russia under international law. Also, I oppose the CCP's rhetoric on Taiwan and the South China Sea claims and am inclined to view other similar claims in a skeptical light. There can be two names for one place. And just because one is popularized in recent years does not mean that the new name is the actual name. The new name definitely deserves a spot on the entry, but does not supplant the name used for a hundred and fifty years. But when the Wikipedia entry title is a neologism made up on Wikipedia and spread by citogenesis, something strange is happening. And this may not be the correct decision in the future! Maybe it needs to be adjusted later! But for me, today, given what I've seen, given the people I've spoken with, I feel that this is what a true, objective encyclopedia would look like. Geographyinitiative ( talk) 16:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus below appears to support the move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 02:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian Manchuria (Russia) → Outer Manchuria – Revert unilateral move by User:Geographyinitiative, discuss it first. Sources provided all mention "Outer Manchuria" as terminology. Gryffindor ( talk) 14:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
This sentence requires clarification, "In 1854, the Tartar-general of Heilungkiang memorialized that the only way to stop Russian expansion into the region was to bring Han Chinese settlers to the unpopulated areas." Who was this and what exactly is a "Tartar-general"? Is this some British Victorian attempt to translate an actual Chinese imperial title?
Also, I often see the word "memorialized" (evidently an attempt to translate a Chinese verb) used instead of the more idiomatic "reported" in many British sources on Imperial China, even some as reputable as Arthur Waley. Wouldn't it be better to modernize the verb to "reported", since, AFAIK, "memorialized" is not standard as a description of preparing an official government document or report in 21st century English? I haven't changed it because I kind of like the quaintness of "memorialized," but what would the consensus be? Pascalulu88 ( talk) 17:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
the Tartar-general of Heilungkiang memorialized in vain that the only way to prevent Russian absorption...Looking at online dictionaries, it seems that "memorialize" is now archaic but did essentially mean "wrote a memo", so it's not a translation issue. Unfortunately, the more significant issue of "what is a Tartar-general" remains unresolved. The text in question otherwise refers to Tatars as Tatars, not Tartars, so it's not clear if this is simply a typo or an intent do denote something else. I'm afraid that confirming what happened here is going to take a non-trivial amount of research using other sources describing the same time period. signed, Rosguill talk 18:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)