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Muscovite鈥揕ithuanian Wars article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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A fact from Muscovite鈥揕ithuanian Wars appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 20 November聽2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
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level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Wojny moskiewskie from the Polish Wikipedia. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors. Translated on 18 November 2006. |
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cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)I'm curious whether the pl name was used during the wartime or it was created later. -- Brand 褋锌芯泄褌 01:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be too polonocentristic.
Voyevoda 11:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks like this will be an interesting article. As usual, this rather obscure series of wars is poorly discussed in Western historiography and there does not appear to be an established name for them as a group. I think the best title would be Muscovite-Lithuanian Wars, since Muscovy is the commonly accepted term for the Russian state centered on Moscow at that time. Wikipedia seems to agree, as our article on the history of Russia in that period is under Muscovy. So let us stay consistent. Balcer 18:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, it has been explained to you that Muscovy is a proper term for Russia in the time of the Moscow Principality. Substituting it for Russia in a later context has a strong POV flavor. -- Irpen 03:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The article of Muscovy needs a cleanup. That's all. Do not add articles to the list of articles in need of cleanup. -- Irpen 03:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I don't think we should explain the same issue over and over again. That's precisely what certain sort of editors want us to do. Such tactics have been exposed for what they are on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Halibutt and have been strongly reprimanded by the community. For my own part, I maintain strict policy in such cases and I'm not going to go over the issue again. Suffice it to say that "Muscovite" is an acceptable synonym for "Russian" when we talk about the period until Ivan III's subjugation of Novgorod and other medieval Russian states. In most contexts, "Russian" is preferrable to "Muscovite" for the sake of clarity. Those who have no respect for Occam's razor have a proclivity to multiply terms for identical things, so as to make identical things seem dissimilar. A result of such approach is Balcer's assertion above that some Russians fought against "Muscovy" in the 16th century. The term "Muscovy" was introduced in Poland-Lithuania and spread to certain countries of Europe for one simple reason: Grand Duke of Lithuania and later King of Poland included in his official title the words "Rex Russiae" or something along these lines. There was a voivodship of Rus(sia) in PLC. As everywhere else in Europe, the fake title was designed to justify the sovereign's claims on the throne of a neighbouring country and had pejorative connotations for that country's ruler. If Sigismund styled himself duke of Russia of course he would not accord that title to any other sovereign or country. There had to be a term coined for true Russia and that artificially invented term was "Muscovy". That's how the term came into being and was spread through Latin-Polish-Jusuit propaganda to other countries, where it never became really popular or supplanted the original term Russia, known in major Latin texts from the 10th century. The "Muscovites" were represented in Papist propaganda as wild wood dwellers who kill true Christians. In English discourse, the term was more or less neutral, especially when designating the inhabitants of the city of Moscow. The main drawback of the term in modern times is that some ignorant or Russophobic editors tend to abuse it. From here follow such remarks as "Muscovy (later Russia)" which I encountered in the text of this article. In order to avoid racist connotations, I would recommend to purge the term from all Poland-related articles, because it is in these articles (and in these only) that the term is abused and becomes controversial. Case closed and I'm not going to reopen it anymore. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 16:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Piotrus continues to insert the "nice picture" (as he styles it) into the article. May I ask why should the article about the wars between Lithuania and Russia have two images illustrating the same event, both of them by Polish artists? Was Poland really a party to these wars? Why Polish editors are so active editing articles about the history of Russia and Lithuania? What if Russian and Lithuanian wikipedians start as actively edit the articles about Polish history, adding self-coined appelations of Poles and pictures by Russian nationalist artists into the articles about Polish history? (I bet they would not because they have a keen feeling of neutrality and decency left in them.) In short, I ask Piotrus and his followers to desist from polonizing the article. Such tricks have been exposed in the past and there is no reason to believe they will succeed this time around. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 17:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I am going to restore the valid caption to mainspace. No arguments have been provided to disprove its content. Furthermore, I saw Piotrus eagerly labelling numerous images as "Soviet propaganda" just a few days ago (although images are usually not categorized in this project). Since he is so good at detecting Soviet propaganda in Wikipedia (without bothering to provide appropriate citations), I may say that I'm no worse at detecting Polish propaganda here. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 18:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as pics are conserned, it seems to me as well that Piotrus' labeling the posters by Viktor Koretsky ( this and this one for instance) as "propaganda" is offensive but I attribute it to the cultural difference rather than an intentional offense. As Lysy noted at Halibutt's RfC different nations have different sensitivities. For Lithuanians it may be their language, for Poles the genetically ingrained fear of loosing their statehood one more time, for Russians and Belarusians it is the memories of the Great Patriotic War since in every family someone was killed there. So, be it "clock/watch jokes", or labeling the sacred images "propaganda", I guess it takes time to learn sensitivities. As for the image of Matejko, I see Ghirla's point that it is counterhistoric. Either we explain it in the caption of we remove the image. The goal of the images in the articles about history is to illustrate historic events. If they misillustrate history, they belong to the author's pages but not to the historic articles. -- Irpen 19:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Appleseed, I welcome scrutiny of my earlier edits and I am happy to explain them to you or anyone who asks. I intended the images to be used for the Eastern Front or one of its subarticles but the EF is in such a disgusting shape, that I ended up not wanting to touch it. Lots of places seem like written by Joseph Goebbels himself. Not wanting to have the images orphaned (and lost) I added it to the article where similar images where already posted as a temporary solution.
Matejko's pic is counterhistoric, because it shows Russians crawling and kneeling in the situation where they could not have possibly done so. If used as an illustration of facts, it is false. Even as an euphemism it is false because the Russians in Pskov were in no position to crawl. Brullov pic symbolizes that Russians view their war with Poles as the defence of their Orthodox values from Papism. This is what it really was for Russians to a large degree. -- Irpen 19:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What is my unrefed speculation? That the Poles were forced to negotiate and left rather than accepted the Russian surrender as the poses of the characters of the pictures imply? I am not saying the article is counterhistorical. I am saying that the image is. -- Irpen 20:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Personal interpretation? Look, please be reasonable. Elementary act of comprehension of what's in the plain view does not consitute the original research as you try to present it. Are you saying that Russians aren't crowling and groveling in the pic that illustrates the historic event which in truth was a succesful defence of the city from the invader? Also, you "think" that's how the commander of the city garrison would have behaved. First it is what you think. Second, I doubt it. -- Irpen 20:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, note that when Ghirla was trying to provide such an explanation, Piotrus reverted him as well. I will try another shot. -- Irpen 21:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Expansion of both captions is a sensible compromise, thank you Irpen for trying to reach it. A word of caution (for various editors): Batory was neither defeated at Pskov, nor victorius. The siege dragged on, and both sides (Batory and Ivan) decided to end the war by negotiations, after which the Poles broke off the siege. While the Poles indeed did not capture the city, we have no way of knowing what would be the result of the siege if the negotiations at did not succeed, the Peace of Jam Zapolski seemes more beneficial to the Commonwealth then to Russia (as it did not make any territorial gains, regaining only some of the lands Batory conquered in the past 3 years), but I think we can agree on 'inconclusive' result for this battle and minor Polish-Lithuanian victory for the war (Batory's campaigns against Russia during the Livonia war).-- 聽Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus聽| 聽talk聽 21:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 04:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Somebody should probably check the wording. E.g. currently only Mongols and Russians "invade", while Livonians "start offensive". FeelSunny ( talk) 17:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Muscovite鈥揕ithuanian Wars article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
A fact from Muscovite鈥揕ithuanian Wars appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 20 November聽2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This 聽
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Wojny moskiewskie from the Polish Wikipedia. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors. Translated on 18 November 2006. |
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)I'm curious whether the pl name was used during the wartime or it was created later. -- Brand 褋锌芯泄褌 01:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be too polonocentristic.
Voyevoda 11:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks like this will be an interesting article. As usual, this rather obscure series of wars is poorly discussed in Western historiography and there does not appear to be an established name for them as a group. I think the best title would be Muscovite-Lithuanian Wars, since Muscovy is the commonly accepted term for the Russian state centered on Moscow at that time. Wikipedia seems to agree, as our article on the history of Russia in that period is under Muscovy. So let us stay consistent. Balcer 18:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, it has been explained to you that Muscovy is a proper term for Russia in the time of the Moscow Principality. Substituting it for Russia in a later context has a strong POV flavor. -- Irpen 03:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The article of Muscovy needs a cleanup. That's all. Do not add articles to the list of articles in need of cleanup. -- Irpen 03:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I don't think we should explain the same issue over and over again. That's precisely what certain sort of editors want us to do. Such tactics have been exposed for what they are on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Halibutt and have been strongly reprimanded by the community. For my own part, I maintain strict policy in such cases and I'm not going to go over the issue again. Suffice it to say that "Muscovite" is an acceptable synonym for "Russian" when we talk about the period until Ivan III's subjugation of Novgorod and other medieval Russian states. In most contexts, "Russian" is preferrable to "Muscovite" for the sake of clarity. Those who have no respect for Occam's razor have a proclivity to multiply terms for identical things, so as to make identical things seem dissimilar. A result of such approach is Balcer's assertion above that some Russians fought against "Muscovy" in the 16th century. The term "Muscovy" was introduced in Poland-Lithuania and spread to certain countries of Europe for one simple reason: Grand Duke of Lithuania and later King of Poland included in his official title the words "Rex Russiae" or something along these lines. There was a voivodship of Rus(sia) in PLC. As everywhere else in Europe, the fake title was designed to justify the sovereign's claims on the throne of a neighbouring country and had pejorative connotations for that country's ruler. If Sigismund styled himself duke of Russia of course he would not accord that title to any other sovereign or country. There had to be a term coined for true Russia and that artificially invented term was "Muscovy". That's how the term came into being and was spread through Latin-Polish-Jusuit propaganda to other countries, where it never became really popular or supplanted the original term Russia, known in major Latin texts from the 10th century. The "Muscovites" were represented in Papist propaganda as wild wood dwellers who kill true Christians. In English discourse, the term was more or less neutral, especially when designating the inhabitants of the city of Moscow. The main drawback of the term in modern times is that some ignorant or Russophobic editors tend to abuse it. From here follow such remarks as "Muscovy (later Russia)" which I encountered in the text of this article. In order to avoid racist connotations, I would recommend to purge the term from all Poland-related articles, because it is in these articles (and in these only) that the term is abused and becomes controversial. Case closed and I'm not going to reopen it anymore. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 16:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Piotrus continues to insert the "nice picture" (as he styles it) into the article. May I ask why should the article about the wars between Lithuania and Russia have two images illustrating the same event, both of them by Polish artists? Was Poland really a party to these wars? Why Polish editors are so active editing articles about the history of Russia and Lithuania? What if Russian and Lithuanian wikipedians start as actively edit the articles about Polish history, adding self-coined appelations of Poles and pictures by Russian nationalist artists into the articles about Polish history? (I bet they would not because they have a keen feeling of neutrality and decency left in them.) In short, I ask Piotrus and his followers to desist from polonizing the article. Such tricks have been exposed in the past and there is no reason to believe they will succeed this time around. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 17:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I am going to restore the valid caption to mainspace. No arguments have been provided to disprove its content. Furthermore, I saw Piotrus eagerly labelling numerous images as "Soviet propaganda" just a few days ago (although images are usually not categorized in this project). Since he is so good at detecting Soviet propaganda in Wikipedia (without bothering to provide appropriate citations), I may say that I'm no worse at detecting Polish propaganda here. -- Ghirla -褌褉褢锌- 18:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as pics are conserned, it seems to me as well that Piotrus' labeling the posters by Viktor Koretsky ( this and this one for instance) as "propaganda" is offensive but I attribute it to the cultural difference rather than an intentional offense. As Lysy noted at Halibutt's RfC different nations have different sensitivities. For Lithuanians it may be their language, for Poles the genetically ingrained fear of loosing their statehood one more time, for Russians and Belarusians it is the memories of the Great Patriotic War since in every family someone was killed there. So, be it "clock/watch jokes", or labeling the sacred images "propaganda", I guess it takes time to learn sensitivities. As for the image of Matejko, I see Ghirla's point that it is counterhistoric. Either we explain it in the caption of we remove the image. The goal of the images in the articles about history is to illustrate historic events. If they misillustrate history, they belong to the author's pages but not to the historic articles. -- Irpen 19:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Appleseed, I welcome scrutiny of my earlier edits and I am happy to explain them to you or anyone who asks. I intended the images to be used for the Eastern Front or one of its subarticles but the EF is in such a disgusting shape, that I ended up not wanting to touch it. Lots of places seem like written by Joseph Goebbels himself. Not wanting to have the images orphaned (and lost) I added it to the article where similar images where already posted as a temporary solution.
Matejko's pic is counterhistoric, because it shows Russians crawling and kneeling in the situation where they could not have possibly done so. If used as an illustration of facts, it is false. Even as an euphemism it is false because the Russians in Pskov were in no position to crawl. Brullov pic symbolizes that Russians view their war with Poles as the defence of their Orthodox values from Papism. This is what it really was for Russians to a large degree. -- Irpen 19:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What is my unrefed speculation? That the Poles were forced to negotiate and left rather than accepted the Russian surrender as the poses of the characters of the pictures imply? I am not saying the article is counterhistorical. I am saying that the image is. -- Irpen 20:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Personal interpretation? Look, please be reasonable. Elementary act of comprehension of what's in the plain view does not consitute the original research as you try to present it. Are you saying that Russians aren't crowling and groveling in the pic that illustrates the historic event which in truth was a succesful defence of the city from the invader? Also, you "think" that's how the commander of the city garrison would have behaved. First it is what you think. Second, I doubt it. -- Irpen 20:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, note that when Ghirla was trying to provide such an explanation, Piotrus reverted him as well. I will try another shot. -- Irpen 21:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Expansion of both captions is a sensible compromise, thank you Irpen for trying to reach it. A word of caution (for various editors): Batory was neither defeated at Pskov, nor victorius. The siege dragged on, and both sides (Batory and Ivan) decided to end the war by negotiations, after which the Poles broke off the siege. While the Poles indeed did not capture the city, we have no way of knowing what would be the result of the siege if the negotiations at did not succeed, the Peace of Jam Zapolski seemes more beneficial to the Commonwealth then to Russia (as it did not make any territorial gains, regaining only some of the lands Batory conquered in the past 3 years), but I think we can agree on 'inconclusive' result for this battle and minor Polish-Lithuanian victory for the war (Batory's campaigns against Russia during the Livonia war).-- 聽Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus聽| 聽talk聽 21:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 04:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Somebody should probably check the wording. E.g. currently only Mongols and Russians "invade", while Livonians "start offensive". FeelSunny ( talk) 17:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)