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The article doesn't cite any support for its contention that "some art may be CALLED postmodern art, but IN REALITY this is a continuation..." I find this to be terribly POV. Until there is some support from a scholarly source and the wording reflects that it is a contention, I think it doesn't belong in the article.
This article may overlap with the one at Modern world. -- Joy [shallot] 18:25, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree; 'Modernity' is a philosophical concept, and not necessarily the same as Modern Times, Modernism or Modern. --Yanemiro 04:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
modernity and modern times should not be merged, particuarly as sociologists regard modernity as a concept separate to modern times. by merging the two, essentially the philosophical component of modernity (particuarly relating to the changes involved in the Great Transformations of the enlightenment period and the revolutions) is overpowered by the actual events themselves. Modern times also implies todays era, whereas sociologists make a distinction between modernity (17th/18th century to roughly late 20th century) and now (postmodernity).
In my opinion, "Modern Times" should not merge with "modernity". I believe it will cause more confusion than already exists. Modern Times refers to a specific time period that historians refer to. Modern Times is not generally thought of as including the time in which we live now (2006). Contrastingly, modernity is a broad concept that has completely different connotations, such as fashion, architecture, modern technology, etc.
Some might argue the Modernity is an ELEMENT of Modern Times. While there is overlap between the two concepts, these articles should be separate for the same reasons that "White House" is separate from "The President of the United States"
thank you, peter, for linking to the other discussion. the only problem is that the "discuss" link on the Modernity site about its merging with Modern Times leads to this discussion. That could help ensure people don't end up here and stay here if they want to talk about it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.15.67 ( talk • contribs) 07:46, 8 November 2006
Well, I'll try to sum this up, removing the merge-tag. -- Flammingo Parliament 10:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the rather strict separation of modernity and the modern period based on? Does this reflect the consensus among historians at the moment? Peter Isotalo 14:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Modernity is an era then? But what would one call the struggle between 'modern times', now and the next step, modernising? What will come after postmodernity? There is a struggle between what is and what will be which needs to be focused on rather than whats gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outdoor08 ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't "modern" mean simply generally 'what is around today', i.e. 'up to date'? ...'what is around today'. That is not implying in any way that "modern" is better or worse. How can something be post that? VeriGGlater 20:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "postmodern" was coined by Jean-François Lyotard in his essay "La Condition postmoderne" (Paris: Editions de Minuit, 1979). Lyotard was tasked to write a report on the condition of knowledge, its acquisition, its status... Lyotard's conclusions were alarming: knowledge was becoming unstable, ever changing and evolving. There were no more certainties. This new relationship to knowledge was radically different in nature from the optimism that was characteristic of "Modernité". So, in my opinion, the notion of the "postmodern" has its place in this article. To answer the question above, the article is about Modernity, not what is "modern". Modernity defines a historical period. The postmodern as defined by Lyotard would be the slow demise of Modernity. It has more to do with sociology than pure historical chronology. I hope this makes sense... Scoob777 ( talk) 02:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)Scoob.
The way the articles have developed, this one just lists what should go to Modern history, although it should be the term opposed to Modernism (there's even the template there), meaning it's the history of late 18th century until the First World War, WWII at the latest. Cf also 1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time, so that it might even be the concept relevant to, and to be distinguished from, Contemporary history.-- Flammingo Hey 07:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This take on modernity is overly historicist and eurocentric. It seems to be oblivious of the more nuanced discussion of modernity, its relation to coloniality and to the allied terms of modernism and modernization. I am working on a rewrite. 66.26.84.57 07:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC) sj
I am not convinced that The Telegraph article "TAMING THE WILD WATERS" adds much to an encyclopedia article on modernity. I am not arguing that it is untrue, rather, that it is superfluous here.
Ellensn ( talk) 16:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Editor Arthur Rubin has cited Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to present citations as authority for the unacceptability of in-text citations, while at the same time saying "although Chicago is quite acceptable". Since Chicago format is in-text citation format, and the authority cited presents at item no. 4 an example of this very in-text citation format, I must submit that he is in error. Further, Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_styles also sanctions APA style and MLA style, both of which discourage the use of footnotes in favor of in-text author-date citations. Chicago style was the only citation format used in the present article up to the addition in September of a source using footnote-reference style. In order to conform with the already established format, I converted this footnote (which also was incomplete and inaccurate, in that it offered a series title as the publisher, and did not include the actual book title or place of publication) to Chicago style, and inserted the source in the Source list at the end of the article.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
It would be interesting if the article could discuss the issue of modernity as a form of social exclusivity. One of the main goals of 19th-century colonialism was to impose modernity on vast amounts of non-civilized African and Asian peoples, and as a result several anti-colonial social movements emerged which saw the ideology of modernity as a major source of alienation for many non-white and non-Western peoples and civilizations. And while modernity was primarily seen as a Western movement, there were many Christians in the West who, for a very long time, were deeply critical of the phenomenon of modernity, which was perceived as an anti-Christian Masonic conspiracy (see Catholicism and Freemasonry). ADM ( talk) 06:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
There should perhaps be an article on Christianity and modernity, an issue that the Roman Catholic Church took a long time to resolve, an issue which was mostly settled during the time of the Second Vatican Council. ADM ( talk) 20:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reversed User:Srnec's attempt to revert this article 'back some years', mainly on the grounds that this removed the only three verifiying source citations in the entire article. I can sympathize to an extent with your action, Srnec, because the state of this article is disgraceful. Unfortunately, the earlier forms were no better, and it is a huge backward step to revert to an article amounting entirely to original research. What this really needs is a complete rewriting, starting from the definition provided by Toulmin and the citations from Giddens and Leppert.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 19:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
What you or I think really doesn't matter, since that amounts to original research. The expert POVs quoted in the article are all we are allowed to depend on, and removing all of them in an effort to have a clear field for expressing some other unverified position is not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. FWIW, Toulmin does not agree that 1436 is a suitable starting date, but rather argues (at considerable length and, in my opinion persuasively) for the end of the Thirty Years' War. The point is that Toulmin cites 1436 as one which is sometimes argued to be the end of the middle ages and the beginning of modernity (which is indeed one widely held point of view, whether you or I or Toulmin agree with it or not). If you can find a source that says Toulmin is wrong, and that no one has ever argued for that date, then by all means please cite it. Toulmin also cites (as the article lede presently points out) a number of other years, down to as late as 1895, which various authors have held to be suitable starting points. Perhaps Toulmin's arguments, as well as tose of other authors who have differing points of view, should be summarized more fully later in the article, but the spread of years should be sufficient for the introduction. As for the rest, I think a clear distinction can and should be made between modernism and modernity (the former being an attitude or program, the latter a condition or state), but making a distinction between the latter and "modern era/period/age" is more problematic, especially when such eminent authorities as Toulmin often do not make this distinction.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Please do not rename or blank and redirect articles without first obtaining editorial consensus.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 06:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I said that "such eminent sources as Toulmin" do not make this distinction. Giddens also does not, Leppert on the other hand seems to be discrimiating the terms and, if memory serves, so does John Ralston Saul (found in the list of Sources but not specificlly cited in the text. Perhaps I should have said "some sources, such as Toulmin, do not make this distinction". I agree that this article is full of unsourced claims, and certainly it is my opinion that some if it (but not all) is hogwash. However, simply converting the article to a redirect is merging articles without prior discussion (not necessarily a problem, if no one objects, but I do object—at least to merging without first obtaining consensus). I see that you are a relative newcomer to Wikipedia, and so likely do not understand many of the procedures used here. If you believe that this article should be merged with Modernism, Modern history, or some other article. then the correct procedure is to make a Proposal to merge. If you will check the discussion history on this page, you will discover that you are not the first person to bring this up, though no formal proposal has been made, at least not in the past two years.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 20:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
My apologies, I misread your profile, which made it appear you had only been editing since August of this year. In any case, I have now had the opportunity to read the Talk history of this page in some detail, and I notice that, when this same proposal to merge was made some three years ago, it failed to gain consensus, largely on grounds that claims were made that the fields of Geography, Sociology, and Philosophy regard "modernity" as distinct from the "modern era". I am not at all familiar with the conventions of the discipline of geography, and am not particularly well-read in sociology. My field is music theory and historical musicology, which puts me into contact more with philosophy, but even here I have to confess to being on shaky ground with regard to the use of this particular term. However, a little fairly superficial research has brought to my attention sources that verity the distinction holds, especially for sociology, but also for art history and philosophy (and my earlier recollection that John Ralston Saul makes this distinction is now confirmed). I shall add these references in the appropriate places, and rewrite the lede to reflect them. In the meantime, please feel free to pare away the rubbish. There is plenty of work for us both.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 18:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Have a look and see. The waters of the Alpheus and Peneus will need to flow through their temporary courses for some while still before we are done cleansing these Augean Stables, but I have removed a large part of the irrelevant and largely OR material. I am still not too happy about the Politics section, which is tied too much to historical periodization, but it contains a relevant reference to John Ralston Saul, elaboration of which should help to clarify how the historico-philosophic identification of "modernity" with "enlightenment" makes the term both narrower and more general than the historical "modern era".— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 21:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It is a technical term, but not one used that way so much by art historians as by sociologists and philosophers. I thought my revisions made this very clear but, if not, please point me to the passages that remain ambiguous on this point. If you have not previously heard of the equation with "enlightenment", then perhaps the sources cited here will give you the opportunity to explore this further. (And this is only tangentially to do with the Age of Enlightenment.) I should think that this article is an aid to any reader who is puzzled by the distinctions made in sociology, philosophy, and the philosophy of science by writers such as Giddens, Eisenstadt, Rosenau, Baudelaire, Toulmin, and, especially, Gaonker, between the concept of modernity and its identification with particular historical periods or geographic locations.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 20:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I apologise if I have clashed with any editor, particularly Jerome Kohl. However, after taking the time to place all of the citations into the proper inline format I see it has been undone. Harvard, end-of-sentence referencing is of course better than none, which is why it remains a common sight, but it is not the preferred form of referencing on wikipedia - a website which aims to automatically create a references list in chronological order at the bottom of the page. A specific nofootnote stamp exists, and states clearly: "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate." It is quite evident you will not find Harvard referencing in featured status articles - it's be nice to aim that high. I do apologise if, in the process, a few page numbers were lost, but otherwise there is nothing here one should have any authority to remove with respect to wiki rules, irrespective of whatever style of referencing you think is more attractive. I am reverting back the changes, also, because the Giddens quote has now fallen out of proper formatting and produced errors on the page. -- Tomsega ( talk) 22:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Citations are usually presented within articles in one of five ways:
There is currently no consensus on a preferred citation style or system for Wikipedia. If you cannot decide on which style to use, or if you do not know what information to include, an example based on the APA style is given below. In APA style, a widely accepted format for writing research papers, the references are listed at the end of the article in alphabetical order by author, and by year for identical authors. Also see MLA style and Harvard referencing.
-- Tomsega ( talk) 22:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
“ | The pull quote is normally used to highlight a short excerpt of the main text | ” |
I just stumbled upon this article following a look into the term "modernism" as related to Catholicism. I am not an expert on this subject so I will not comment on the article content but I do feel the need to comment on the article editing...
In your eagerness to wikilawyer the citation styles issue you seriously failed to respect the essence of WikiLove and Collegiality, without which WP would dissolve into a vulgar bar-room brawl. Mr. Tomsega apparently invested a great deal of time and effort to revise the citations... time and effort that you then callously disregarded in pursuit of adherence to a Style Guideline which states, in part:
"[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." (emphasis added)
"Common sense" would suggest that there was no urgency to undo all of Mr. Tomsega's work and that the matter could have been discussed in a collegial fashion first. You could have initiated the talk page and explained your reasons for preferring one format over the other. You could have been the one with an open mind and willing to listen to the other side. You could have been the bigger man. Instead you chose to invest a not insignificant quantity of your own time to manually undo the painstaking work of another editor. Worse, you executed your editorial mission so poorly that by your own admission you damaged content contribution and (per my above edit) failed to consistently use accurate style, both by simple carelessness. No one disputes that Tomsega breached WP Style Guidelines. Likewise no one appears to dispute that his efforts were in good faith. You were within "your rights" to do what you did, but was it the "right thing" to do given the circumstances? I believe, no. Tomsega seems to have responded to your actions with respect and deference, yet I suspect there was a sharp sting to see his well intentioned bold efforts "undone". I believe, Mr. Kohl, you owe your colleague, Mr. Tomsega, an apology for acting with haste, carelessness and lack of regard -- I urge you to look beyond the "rules" and do what is right. I urge you to set an example of real civility by proffering him a sincere apology. 66.102.198.95 ( talk) 15:11, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Just came here to try and figure out what modernity is. In the first sentence it has the meaningless term, "post-traditional". It might be some type of jargon, but it is meaningless to most people. It links to "tradition". I know what a tradition is. Is post-traditional something like what you do after a tradition? Maybe the post-traditional football game on Thanksgiving. You watch it after the traditional turkey dinner.
Please, could someone write a first sentence that describes modernism. If it's just a time period like the 18th century just say so. You can get to the complicated stuff after the first sentence.
Ydorb ( talk) 22:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Ydorb ( talk) 18:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Not only is the language abtruse, there is also a strong bias. For example, a strong influence from neo-marxists thought. To describe marxism as modern and to include modes of "surveillance" in the fundamental definition of modernity just goes to show that this article must completely reworked. Much of the initial definition is also repetitive withour clarifying the issues. One other point: According to Giddens we are in high-modernity, not post-modernity. There is no agreement that we should be in post-modernity. Modernity is three things:
1. Not the middle ages (early defintion from 17th century) 2. Freedom, equality and reason (French revolution) 3. Urbanity and industrial society (turn of the century 1900).
Whatever you may want to add or retract this core remains the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.76.151 ( talk) 10:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
"modernity tends only to refer to the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism. Nevertheless modernity may characterise tendencies in intellectual culture: particularly, those movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism and existentialism, as well as the formal establishment of social science"
That is an abtruse characterisation. What is meant by that? Nothing is clarified, but the tone is clearly materialistic, i.e. Marxist. Liberty, equality and reason are better ways of defining what modernity is than "the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism", which is not really a clarification or definition. What are the social relations? What are they characterised by? What does capitalism have to do with reason, for example? Reason is a product of science, not of capitalism. The whole interpretation is reductionist, biased, Marxist/materialistic and therefore botched. Unless everything that has happened in modern times is related to capitalism, in which case the defintion is circular: capitalism = modernity. The tone and style of writing is also typical of neo-marxism, piling abstractions on top of each other.
The phrasing, which is wordy without clarifying the issues, does associate marxism with modernity, not just modernism:
"Nevertheless modernity may characterise tendencies in intellectual culture: particularly, those movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism". What is menat by "modernity may characterise".
How and in what way does modernity "characterise?" I thought the goal was to define modernity, but here it is modernity that defines something else. This is a very confused way of writing. In any case, the article associates marxism with modernity, not just modernism. Modernity "characterises" marxism. That is what the sentence says. The connection to modernism is also unclear, because it follows in the sentence after marxism is mentioned. There is a vagure reference to intellectual movements. However, during this period there have been several counter-modern currents of thought. Green ideology, to just mention one. It is just not acceptable to have an article with this kind of vagueness and even factual errors, as a result of that vagueness.
No, marxism is not a part of modernity, per se, but it is an expression of modernism! I will let you ponder that one! By the way, why should modernism be mentioned at all? Can it not be left to the article with that title? Must modernity be defined in relation to modernism? I believe that type of discussion or contrastive definition does not belong in the first paragraph. It only displays a certain anxiety and uncertainty about the concept of modernity. Keep the eyes on the ball! Since modernity is a complex concept, the wording in the initial paragraph needs to be much more open-ended. For example, a clear statement that the concept is disputed or that it can have different meanings depending on ideology.
A final example: "In context, modernity has been associated". Which context? Associated in what way? Whoever has written this does not command the clear and simple style of writing that is necessary in a dictionary.
At the bottom of this lies a confusion which is a product of the dominance of the political left in the social sciences. This article can not solve this, but whoever writes about such concepts should be aware of this and give equal treatment to different points of view.
[[[Special:Contributions/193.10.249.136|193.10.249.136]] ( talk) 16:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph says that modernity includes surveillance, but never touches on that again, and the linked page on Surveillance never mentions modernity. Would like to understand better.-- BooksXYZ ( talk) 09:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be some redundancy in this article. There is a both a "defining modernity" subheading, and a "modernity defined" subheading. The material under the "modernity defined" subheading is rather scant, and taken only from one source, while the material under "defining modernity" tries to encompass the many different ways in which this term is used in different intellectual/artistic fields. I would suggest deleting the second, "modernity defined" section, or incorporating what it says into the "sociology" section of the more thorough definitional section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Independebubble ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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Just wondering- is there a reason that there are so few ref tags on this page? It makes the page look really cluttered with inline citations. Also, it seems more like an essay than a Wikipedia article, especially with phrases like “as so and so, who did such and such, says in their work, X, ...” dunno how to fix this stuff, really. -- OrangeYoshi99 ( talk) 18:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Modernity, a topic in the humanities and social sciences, is both a historical period (the modern era), as well as the ensemble of particular socio-cultural norms, attitudes and practices that arose in the wake of the Renaissance—in the "Age of Reason" of 17th-century thought and the 18th-century "Enlightenment".
The two expressions "Age of Reason" and "Enlightenment" lead to the same page. Rewrite ? -- Japarthur ( talk) 12:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I've raised the problems in this and the related articles modern era, late modern period and early modern period in Wikiproject History. Thread can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History#Modernity articles are a hot mess
I recommend a joint discussion for all these articles since they seem to suffer from very similar issues. Peter Isotalo 13:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
At this time, this article is asserting, without explanation, that Marxism and Modernity are antithetical, as if this were a self evident, nominal truth. 3rd ¶ in the lede. Presumed missing and qualifying Hegelian partner attribute, bourgeois, Capitalist, etc. An equation between bourgeois culture and modernity is implicit as it stands now. Lycurgus ( talk) 21:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
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The article doesn't cite any support for its contention that "some art may be CALLED postmodern art, but IN REALITY this is a continuation..." I find this to be terribly POV. Until there is some support from a scholarly source and the wording reflects that it is a contention, I think it doesn't belong in the article.
This article may overlap with the one at Modern world. -- Joy [shallot] 18:25, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree; 'Modernity' is a philosophical concept, and not necessarily the same as Modern Times, Modernism or Modern. --Yanemiro 04:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
modernity and modern times should not be merged, particuarly as sociologists regard modernity as a concept separate to modern times. by merging the two, essentially the philosophical component of modernity (particuarly relating to the changes involved in the Great Transformations of the enlightenment period and the revolutions) is overpowered by the actual events themselves. Modern times also implies todays era, whereas sociologists make a distinction between modernity (17th/18th century to roughly late 20th century) and now (postmodernity).
In my opinion, "Modern Times" should not merge with "modernity". I believe it will cause more confusion than already exists. Modern Times refers to a specific time period that historians refer to. Modern Times is not generally thought of as including the time in which we live now (2006). Contrastingly, modernity is a broad concept that has completely different connotations, such as fashion, architecture, modern technology, etc.
Some might argue the Modernity is an ELEMENT of Modern Times. While there is overlap between the two concepts, these articles should be separate for the same reasons that "White House" is separate from "The President of the United States"
thank you, peter, for linking to the other discussion. the only problem is that the "discuss" link on the Modernity site about its merging with Modern Times leads to this discussion. That could help ensure people don't end up here and stay here if they want to talk about it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.15.67 ( talk • contribs) 07:46, 8 November 2006
Well, I'll try to sum this up, removing the merge-tag. -- Flammingo Parliament 10:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the rather strict separation of modernity and the modern period based on? Does this reflect the consensus among historians at the moment? Peter Isotalo 14:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Modernity is an era then? But what would one call the struggle between 'modern times', now and the next step, modernising? What will come after postmodernity? There is a struggle between what is and what will be which needs to be focused on rather than whats gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outdoor08 ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't "modern" mean simply generally 'what is around today', i.e. 'up to date'? ...'what is around today'. That is not implying in any way that "modern" is better or worse. How can something be post that? VeriGGlater 20:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "postmodern" was coined by Jean-François Lyotard in his essay "La Condition postmoderne" (Paris: Editions de Minuit, 1979). Lyotard was tasked to write a report on the condition of knowledge, its acquisition, its status... Lyotard's conclusions were alarming: knowledge was becoming unstable, ever changing and evolving. There were no more certainties. This new relationship to knowledge was radically different in nature from the optimism that was characteristic of "Modernité". So, in my opinion, the notion of the "postmodern" has its place in this article. To answer the question above, the article is about Modernity, not what is "modern". Modernity defines a historical period. The postmodern as defined by Lyotard would be the slow demise of Modernity. It has more to do with sociology than pure historical chronology. I hope this makes sense... Scoob777 ( talk) 02:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)Scoob.
The way the articles have developed, this one just lists what should go to Modern history, although it should be the term opposed to Modernism (there's even the template there), meaning it's the history of late 18th century until the First World War, WWII at the latest. Cf also 1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time, so that it might even be the concept relevant to, and to be distinguished from, Contemporary history.-- Flammingo Hey 07:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This take on modernity is overly historicist and eurocentric. It seems to be oblivious of the more nuanced discussion of modernity, its relation to coloniality and to the allied terms of modernism and modernization. I am working on a rewrite. 66.26.84.57 07:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC) sj
I am not convinced that The Telegraph article "TAMING THE WILD WATERS" adds much to an encyclopedia article on modernity. I am not arguing that it is untrue, rather, that it is superfluous here.
Ellensn ( talk) 16:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Editor Arthur Rubin has cited Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to present citations as authority for the unacceptability of in-text citations, while at the same time saying "although Chicago is quite acceptable". Since Chicago format is in-text citation format, and the authority cited presents at item no. 4 an example of this very in-text citation format, I must submit that he is in error. Further, Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_styles also sanctions APA style and MLA style, both of which discourage the use of footnotes in favor of in-text author-date citations. Chicago style was the only citation format used in the present article up to the addition in September of a source using footnote-reference style. In order to conform with the already established format, I converted this footnote (which also was incomplete and inaccurate, in that it offered a series title as the publisher, and did not include the actual book title or place of publication) to Chicago style, and inserted the source in the Source list at the end of the article.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
It would be interesting if the article could discuss the issue of modernity as a form of social exclusivity. One of the main goals of 19th-century colonialism was to impose modernity on vast amounts of non-civilized African and Asian peoples, and as a result several anti-colonial social movements emerged which saw the ideology of modernity as a major source of alienation for many non-white and non-Western peoples and civilizations. And while modernity was primarily seen as a Western movement, there were many Christians in the West who, for a very long time, were deeply critical of the phenomenon of modernity, which was perceived as an anti-Christian Masonic conspiracy (see Catholicism and Freemasonry). ADM ( talk) 06:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
There should perhaps be an article on Christianity and modernity, an issue that the Roman Catholic Church took a long time to resolve, an issue which was mostly settled during the time of the Second Vatican Council. ADM ( talk) 20:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reversed User:Srnec's attempt to revert this article 'back some years', mainly on the grounds that this removed the only three verifiying source citations in the entire article. I can sympathize to an extent with your action, Srnec, because the state of this article is disgraceful. Unfortunately, the earlier forms were no better, and it is a huge backward step to revert to an article amounting entirely to original research. What this really needs is a complete rewriting, starting from the definition provided by Toulmin and the citations from Giddens and Leppert.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 19:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
What you or I think really doesn't matter, since that amounts to original research. The expert POVs quoted in the article are all we are allowed to depend on, and removing all of them in an effort to have a clear field for expressing some other unverified position is not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. FWIW, Toulmin does not agree that 1436 is a suitable starting date, but rather argues (at considerable length and, in my opinion persuasively) for the end of the Thirty Years' War. The point is that Toulmin cites 1436 as one which is sometimes argued to be the end of the middle ages and the beginning of modernity (which is indeed one widely held point of view, whether you or I or Toulmin agree with it or not). If you can find a source that says Toulmin is wrong, and that no one has ever argued for that date, then by all means please cite it. Toulmin also cites (as the article lede presently points out) a number of other years, down to as late as 1895, which various authors have held to be suitable starting points. Perhaps Toulmin's arguments, as well as tose of other authors who have differing points of view, should be summarized more fully later in the article, but the spread of years should be sufficient for the introduction. As for the rest, I think a clear distinction can and should be made between modernism and modernity (the former being an attitude or program, the latter a condition or state), but making a distinction between the latter and "modern era/period/age" is more problematic, especially when such eminent authorities as Toulmin often do not make this distinction.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Please do not rename or blank and redirect articles without first obtaining editorial consensus.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 06:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I said that "such eminent sources as Toulmin" do not make this distinction. Giddens also does not, Leppert on the other hand seems to be discrimiating the terms and, if memory serves, so does John Ralston Saul (found in the list of Sources but not specificlly cited in the text. Perhaps I should have said "some sources, such as Toulmin, do not make this distinction". I agree that this article is full of unsourced claims, and certainly it is my opinion that some if it (but not all) is hogwash. However, simply converting the article to a redirect is merging articles without prior discussion (not necessarily a problem, if no one objects, but I do object—at least to merging without first obtaining consensus). I see that you are a relative newcomer to Wikipedia, and so likely do not understand many of the procedures used here. If you believe that this article should be merged with Modernism, Modern history, or some other article. then the correct procedure is to make a Proposal to merge. If you will check the discussion history on this page, you will discover that you are not the first person to bring this up, though no formal proposal has been made, at least not in the past two years.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 20:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
My apologies, I misread your profile, which made it appear you had only been editing since August of this year. In any case, I have now had the opportunity to read the Talk history of this page in some detail, and I notice that, when this same proposal to merge was made some three years ago, it failed to gain consensus, largely on grounds that claims were made that the fields of Geography, Sociology, and Philosophy regard "modernity" as distinct from the "modern era". I am not at all familiar with the conventions of the discipline of geography, and am not particularly well-read in sociology. My field is music theory and historical musicology, which puts me into contact more with philosophy, but even here I have to confess to being on shaky ground with regard to the use of this particular term. However, a little fairly superficial research has brought to my attention sources that verity the distinction holds, especially for sociology, but also for art history and philosophy (and my earlier recollection that John Ralston Saul makes this distinction is now confirmed). I shall add these references in the appropriate places, and rewrite the lede to reflect them. In the meantime, please feel free to pare away the rubbish. There is plenty of work for us both.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 18:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Have a look and see. The waters of the Alpheus and Peneus will need to flow through their temporary courses for some while still before we are done cleansing these Augean Stables, but I have removed a large part of the irrelevant and largely OR material. I am still not too happy about the Politics section, which is tied too much to historical periodization, but it contains a relevant reference to John Ralston Saul, elaboration of which should help to clarify how the historico-philosophic identification of "modernity" with "enlightenment" makes the term both narrower and more general than the historical "modern era".— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 21:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It is a technical term, but not one used that way so much by art historians as by sociologists and philosophers. I thought my revisions made this very clear but, if not, please point me to the passages that remain ambiguous on this point. If you have not previously heard of the equation with "enlightenment", then perhaps the sources cited here will give you the opportunity to explore this further. (And this is only tangentially to do with the Age of Enlightenment.) I should think that this article is an aid to any reader who is puzzled by the distinctions made in sociology, philosophy, and the philosophy of science by writers such as Giddens, Eisenstadt, Rosenau, Baudelaire, Toulmin, and, especially, Gaonker, between the concept of modernity and its identification with particular historical periods or geographic locations.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 20:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I apologise if I have clashed with any editor, particularly Jerome Kohl. However, after taking the time to place all of the citations into the proper inline format I see it has been undone. Harvard, end-of-sentence referencing is of course better than none, which is why it remains a common sight, but it is not the preferred form of referencing on wikipedia - a website which aims to automatically create a references list in chronological order at the bottom of the page. A specific nofootnote stamp exists, and states clearly: "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate." It is quite evident you will not find Harvard referencing in featured status articles - it's be nice to aim that high. I do apologise if, in the process, a few page numbers were lost, but otherwise there is nothing here one should have any authority to remove with respect to wiki rules, irrespective of whatever style of referencing you think is more attractive. I am reverting back the changes, also, because the Giddens quote has now fallen out of proper formatting and produced errors on the page. -- Tomsega ( talk) 22:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Citations are usually presented within articles in one of five ways:
There is currently no consensus on a preferred citation style or system for Wikipedia. If you cannot decide on which style to use, or if you do not know what information to include, an example based on the APA style is given below. In APA style, a widely accepted format for writing research papers, the references are listed at the end of the article in alphabetical order by author, and by year for identical authors. Also see MLA style and Harvard referencing.
-- Tomsega ( talk) 22:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
“ | The pull quote is normally used to highlight a short excerpt of the main text | ” |
I just stumbled upon this article following a look into the term "modernism" as related to Catholicism. I am not an expert on this subject so I will not comment on the article content but I do feel the need to comment on the article editing...
In your eagerness to wikilawyer the citation styles issue you seriously failed to respect the essence of WikiLove and Collegiality, without which WP would dissolve into a vulgar bar-room brawl. Mr. Tomsega apparently invested a great deal of time and effort to revise the citations... time and effort that you then callously disregarded in pursuit of adherence to a Style Guideline which states, in part:
"[This] is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." (emphasis added)
"Common sense" would suggest that there was no urgency to undo all of Mr. Tomsega's work and that the matter could have been discussed in a collegial fashion first. You could have initiated the talk page and explained your reasons for preferring one format over the other. You could have been the one with an open mind and willing to listen to the other side. You could have been the bigger man. Instead you chose to invest a not insignificant quantity of your own time to manually undo the painstaking work of another editor. Worse, you executed your editorial mission so poorly that by your own admission you damaged content contribution and (per my above edit) failed to consistently use accurate style, both by simple carelessness. No one disputes that Tomsega breached WP Style Guidelines. Likewise no one appears to dispute that his efforts were in good faith. You were within "your rights" to do what you did, but was it the "right thing" to do given the circumstances? I believe, no. Tomsega seems to have responded to your actions with respect and deference, yet I suspect there was a sharp sting to see his well intentioned bold efforts "undone". I believe, Mr. Kohl, you owe your colleague, Mr. Tomsega, an apology for acting with haste, carelessness and lack of regard -- I urge you to look beyond the "rules" and do what is right. I urge you to set an example of real civility by proffering him a sincere apology. 66.102.198.95 ( talk) 15:11, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Just came here to try and figure out what modernity is. In the first sentence it has the meaningless term, "post-traditional". It might be some type of jargon, but it is meaningless to most people. It links to "tradition". I know what a tradition is. Is post-traditional something like what you do after a tradition? Maybe the post-traditional football game on Thanksgiving. You watch it after the traditional turkey dinner.
Please, could someone write a first sentence that describes modernism. If it's just a time period like the 18th century just say so. You can get to the complicated stuff after the first sentence.
Ydorb ( talk) 22:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Ydorb ( talk) 18:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Not only is the language abtruse, there is also a strong bias. For example, a strong influence from neo-marxists thought. To describe marxism as modern and to include modes of "surveillance" in the fundamental definition of modernity just goes to show that this article must completely reworked. Much of the initial definition is also repetitive withour clarifying the issues. One other point: According to Giddens we are in high-modernity, not post-modernity. There is no agreement that we should be in post-modernity. Modernity is three things:
1. Not the middle ages (early defintion from 17th century) 2. Freedom, equality and reason (French revolution) 3. Urbanity and industrial society (turn of the century 1900).
Whatever you may want to add or retract this core remains the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.76.151 ( talk) 10:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
"modernity tends only to refer to the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism. Nevertheless modernity may characterise tendencies in intellectual culture: particularly, those movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism and existentialism, as well as the formal establishment of social science"
That is an abtruse characterisation. What is meant by that? Nothing is clarified, but the tone is clearly materialistic, i.e. Marxist. Liberty, equality and reason are better ways of defining what modernity is than "the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism", which is not really a clarification or definition. What are the social relations? What are they characterised by? What does capitalism have to do with reason, for example? Reason is a product of science, not of capitalism. The whole interpretation is reductionist, biased, Marxist/materialistic and therefore botched. Unless everything that has happened in modern times is related to capitalism, in which case the defintion is circular: capitalism = modernity. The tone and style of writing is also typical of neo-marxism, piling abstractions on top of each other.
The phrasing, which is wordy without clarifying the issues, does associate marxism with modernity, not just modernism:
"Nevertheless modernity may characterise tendencies in intellectual culture: particularly, those movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism". What is menat by "modernity may characterise".
How and in what way does modernity "characterise?" I thought the goal was to define modernity, but here it is modernity that defines something else. This is a very confused way of writing. In any case, the article associates marxism with modernity, not just modernism. Modernity "characterises" marxism. That is what the sentence says. The connection to modernism is also unclear, because it follows in the sentence after marxism is mentioned. There is a vagure reference to intellectual movements. However, during this period there have been several counter-modern currents of thought. Green ideology, to just mention one. It is just not acceptable to have an article with this kind of vagueness and even factual errors, as a result of that vagueness.
No, marxism is not a part of modernity, per se, but it is an expression of modernism! I will let you ponder that one! By the way, why should modernism be mentioned at all? Can it not be left to the article with that title? Must modernity be defined in relation to modernism? I believe that type of discussion or contrastive definition does not belong in the first paragraph. It only displays a certain anxiety and uncertainty about the concept of modernity. Keep the eyes on the ball! Since modernity is a complex concept, the wording in the initial paragraph needs to be much more open-ended. For example, a clear statement that the concept is disputed or that it can have different meanings depending on ideology.
A final example: "In context, modernity has been associated". Which context? Associated in what way? Whoever has written this does not command the clear and simple style of writing that is necessary in a dictionary.
At the bottom of this lies a confusion which is a product of the dominance of the political left in the social sciences. This article can not solve this, but whoever writes about such concepts should be aware of this and give equal treatment to different points of view.
[[[Special:Contributions/193.10.249.136|193.10.249.136]] ( talk) 16:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph says that modernity includes surveillance, but never touches on that again, and the linked page on Surveillance never mentions modernity. Would like to understand better.-- BooksXYZ ( talk) 09:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be some redundancy in this article. There is a both a "defining modernity" subheading, and a "modernity defined" subheading. The material under the "modernity defined" subheading is rather scant, and taken only from one source, while the material under "defining modernity" tries to encompass the many different ways in which this term is used in different intellectual/artistic fields. I would suggest deleting the second, "modernity defined" section, or incorporating what it says into the "sociology" section of the more thorough definitional section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Independebubble ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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Just wondering- is there a reason that there are so few ref tags on this page? It makes the page look really cluttered with inline citations. Also, it seems more like an essay than a Wikipedia article, especially with phrases like “as so and so, who did such and such, says in their work, X, ...” dunno how to fix this stuff, really. -- OrangeYoshi99 ( talk) 18:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Modernity, a topic in the humanities and social sciences, is both a historical period (the modern era), as well as the ensemble of particular socio-cultural norms, attitudes and practices that arose in the wake of the Renaissance—in the "Age of Reason" of 17th-century thought and the 18th-century "Enlightenment".
The two expressions "Age of Reason" and "Enlightenment" lead to the same page. Rewrite ? -- Japarthur ( talk) 12:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I've raised the problems in this and the related articles modern era, late modern period and early modern period in Wikiproject History. Thread can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History#Modernity articles are a hot mess
I recommend a joint discussion for all these articles since they seem to suffer from very similar issues. Peter Isotalo 13:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
At this time, this article is asserting, without explanation, that Marxism and Modernity are antithetical, as if this were a self evident, nominal truth. 3rd ¶ in the lede. Presumed missing and qualifying Hegelian partner attribute, bourgeois, Capitalist, etc. An equation between bourgeois culture and modernity is implicit as it stands now. Lycurgus ( talk) 21:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)