![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
We're currently linking directly to Ukranian Wikipedia's article on uk:Hrabove; should this be a redlink instead? Microchip08 ( talk) 17:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
NOS has mentioned that two different travel agencies have confirmed that Dutch travellers have booked for the flight. It is not mentioned how many have boarded the aircraft, but it does mention that D-reizen has had 25 Dutch bookings and World Ticket Center (a Dutch online travel agency) has had approximately twenty to thirty bookings. Please see the following ref. http://nos.nl/liveblog/676042-vliegtuig-uit-adam-neergestort.html (Dutch) Christian299 ( talk) 17:38, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
How do you know that the infobox picture is one of 9M-MRD ? I don't see that in the file description on Commons and I can't see the tail number at that resolution. Simon Villeneuve ( talk) 17:02, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The image has been changed to one showing the aircraft in an earlier livery. Should it be changed back? Mjroots ( talk) 18:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The New York Daily News has some images of the crash site up. Abductive ( reasoning) 17:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I think considering the importance of WP:V, having the table figures referenced is appropriate (especially at this early stage). Tables often have refs. Widefox; talk 19:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Anyone have an id on the AP reporter or where he said it, or if he has repeated his statement about the sighting after the crash? Oathed ( talk) 17:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Link to twitter pic of Buk system in alleged rebel town: Via speigel.de https://twitter.com/michelhenrion/status/489823022090838017/photo/1 (User: B_part)
That is background generic information it has nothing to do with THIS incident so why add it before reactions? Its commonplace on incident pages to put the aircraft info in background( Lihaas ( talk) 18:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have removed the reaction from countries with no official involvement and also comments from some american politician are not that important. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
It seems US VP Biden has confirmation from the Pentagon that the plane was indeed short down by a SAM missile. e.g http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5913609/biden-blown-out-of-the-sky/in/5677250 http://www.cnbc.com/id/101838653 Arnoutf ( talk) 21:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
If were gonna quote one side saying rebels fired, then we should the other side saying ukraine fired it for NPOV Lihaas ( talk) 18:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I just undid an edit that placed the passengers and crew in separate columns as all of the crew are from Malaysia, as such having 0s in all of the other countries is redundant. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Here I removed the following clause because I could not find any support for it in the two cites given in section "Cause":
, and linking to video of smoking wreckage of the 777.
My edit comment was "removed claim video showed 777 wreckage as not found in the cites; please only reinsert with precise and reliable citing to avoid OR". The whole section is also problematic in that it does not follow a chronological order, and appears (to me at least) to rely on unreliable ephemeral sources. - 84user ( talk) 21:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Since it hasn't even confirmed the plane was shot down, it feels WP:UNDUE to have a picture of the Buk missile prominently featured under "Cause". Let's wait until sources confirm more than just initial speculation and a reporter seeing something. 9kat ( talk) 18:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Peter Leonhard saw it, or maybe he thinks he saw it ? He knows BUK system, is he expert ? -- 94.140.88.117 ( talk) 18:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
It was codesharing with KLM as KL4103 should we mention that? Were there other codeshares on this flight? Arnoutf ( talk) 16:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I moved this to a footnote earlier, but now we have the full KLM flight numbers too. It really clutters up the lead, so I moved it back to the footnote. No reliable sources are using the KLM flight number, so it's not something that makes sense to bold. A footnote makes the most sense since we can fully describe it as a codeshare there. (I'm following what the MH370 article does on this.) 9kat ( talk) 22:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
This appears to be the deadliest air disaster since the 1980 Saudia Flight 163 incident. Is this accurate, and if is it significant enough to be mentioned? It feels to me that it should be added in the paragraph about the number of deaths (and how it outstrips MH370). Prokhorovka ( talk) 22:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Why is this article SP'd? I see no good reason whatsoever. See MH370 for a kind of policy on this type of (fast-moving, current news) article. 82.31.18.26 ( talk) 18:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Protection is a very very good idea here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 18:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Similar incidents
Air Rhodesia Flight 825 - passenger plane shot down by insurgents Air Rhodesia Flight 827 - passenger plane shot down by insurgents
Rolfthelemite ( talk) 23:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement from King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands. [3] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 00:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hey, I'm not a wiki editor so I'll leave it to you guys and gals. But, international standard aviation altitudes are actually measured in feet. This "33000 feet" is the correct usage.
Change this line: This is the second time a Malaysia Airlines aircraft has been involved in a serious incident in 2014, after Flight 370 disappeared en route to Beijing on 8 March 2014. - it shouldn't say involved, it should say 'victim of', being involved means they orchestrated(in part) in this context
Reports from Interfax and Reuters are saying this was shot down. -- Kuzwa ( talk) 15:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
reportedly shot down by a buk missile - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system - the plane would be within range even at maximum cruising altitude for a 777. "..can begin tracking at the missile's maximum range (32 km/20 mi) and can track aircraft flying at between 15 m and 22,000 m (50 to 72,000 ft) altitudes. It can guide up to three missiles against a single target." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.71.135.38 ( talk) 16:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-jet-reportedly-crashes-in-ukraine/ HammerFilmFan ( talk) 16:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have already made many useful edits to this page whilst not logged in ( ip=91.125.15.174). I have now made this new account. Flyer500 ( talk) 17:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Uninvolved admin here - lets be straight about this. The article will be kept in as neutral tones as possible, quoting from reliable sources wherever possible. Said sources are not, repeat not, required to be neutral, that is our job. The semi-protection is valid IMVHO, for the reasons given when it was imposed. Where an involved admin makes a move that any other reasonable admin may have come to of their own volition, generally, that move may be seen as permissible. This is a hot topic at the moment, and is directly linked from the Main Page. Once things die down a bit, we can look at unprotecting the article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Sin Chew has released the names of the 15 crew. [6] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 00:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why aren't they being included in table? nationality can be taken as Malaysian till more information comes out, atleast the number is confirmed, there were two captains, two first officers and eleven cabin attendants according to Malaysian Wings forum, where MH insiders and people with contacts in the airline post. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 20:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I thought there was a discussion going on. Why was this removed arbitrarily? 99.245.11.41 ( talk) 01:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I had removed this section as undue and unencyclopedic (as a bold edit, reverted by Knowledgekid87). I've not seen such a section on any other plane crash wiki page (and I've checked a fair number working on days of the year pages). For example, no such list on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 or even 9/11. It adds no information to the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 01:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi, according to BBC and CNN news: the airplane just shot down by a missile and lost contact located in Ukraine areas. However the Boeing 777 is a good airplane/aircraft and never crashes, that involved 3 of them were lost. -- Allen talk 02:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So, someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I am noticing that the coordinates, as written in the article, are closer to Petropavlivka than Hrabove. Where did we get the coordinates, as I am tempted to change the closest village if the coordinates are indeed correct. Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 21:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM AndyTheGrump ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
For a small airline, the airline's reduction in its 777 fleet size will greatly impact its's ability to serve its global destinations. Please monitor this because it will surely change. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 04:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
I noticed that the People on board by country table in the article mainly reflected information from the Malaysian Airlines official press release, but supplemented it with "23 US deaths" based on this Independent article, which in turn cited "Ukrainian Interior Ministry" for that number. While Independent is a reliable source in general, in cases of fast moving and often conflicting real-time reporting, I think it is best to stick to official stats rather than try and mix and match data from sources of varying reliability and timeliness. So for the moment I have edited the table to match the Malaysian Airlines official data. If the US deaths are indeed confirmed by the airline or say the US state department, we can update the table accordingly. Abecedare ( talk) 05:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How about sticking to known facts before jumping to conclusions about blame and responsibility?
At the very least, non-neutral and unverified statements from Western media about Russia should be identified as such. "Western media claims..." or "The U.S. State Department claims..." should be inserted before such statements in the interests of maintaining NPOV.
I say this as a "neutral": I am neither Western nor Russian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.229.28 ( talk) 05:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Was it 13:15UTC or 14:15UTC? Nathan121212 ( talk) 22:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
13:15 UTC. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/here-real-time-flight-path-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh-17 Anthonyliu ( talk) 23:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The time was 13:20 UTC. I work in Dnipropetrovsk Air Traffic Control Centre, and I know precisely — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
46.98.52.28 (
talk)
05:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
08:11AM 51.2265 24.8316 107° East 562MPH 33,000 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK/tracklog — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.71.135.38 ( talk) 16:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
AJAM reported that there would be complicated jurisdictional issues among Interstate Aviation Committee and NTSB and Dutch Safety Board. This is pertinent to the article and should be included. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 05:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
WP:NOTFORUM Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Reposting due to WP:NOTAFORUM. Please consider the fact that I rephrased my post. The Ukrainian was quick to call the Dutch PM to express condolences, but not the Malaysian PM. I am seeking a source and explanation of this differences. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 05:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC |
Both ITAR-TASS ( Original, Archive) and RIA Novosti ( Translated copy) published articles making the claim that seperatists shot down a Ukrainian An-26 in the same area yesterday. As of right now , no one has seen this downed An-26 so I think it can be assumed that such articles are making reference to MH17. In that case, they should be mentioned. -- Simfan34 ( talk) 02:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The New York Times: "Rebels have claimed responsibility for attacking a Ukrainian military jet as it landed in the city of Luhansk on June 14, and for felling an AN-26 transport plane on Monday and an SU-25 fighter jet on Wednesday."-- Brian Dell ( talk) 04:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to link to List of airliner shootdown incidents from "See also" so long as it's still uncertain whether the plane was, in fact, shot down? I mean, I personally think that it's well-possible, bordering on extremely likely, but personal beliefs and opinions don't belong on Wikipedia. To me, linking from this to List of airliner shootdown incidents feels extremely similar to adding something like List of serial killers in the United States on an alleged serial killer, to be honest. However, I suspect that removing it would be considered controversial, so I'm not going to remove it without more opinions. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 18:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia's reliable source policy calls for reliable sources, not "official" ones. In my view, by the weekend and perhaps even before we should be able to say whether or not there are enough reliable sources suggesting a shoot-down to warrant inclusion. Wikipedia is not absolutely infallible such that nothing is included that has not been confirmed 500 times.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 00:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why MH370 is in this section. The coincidence of it being the same airline doesn't justify it being in this section in this article. Totally different incident with zero speculation anywhere that MH370 was shot down. There's already mention of it in the article content anyway. The 2002 Mombasa attacks would even be better suited here. -- Oakshade ( talk) 06:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under section International Reaction, this information may be added:
Indian PM
Narendra Modi expressed his condolence for those who are affected Modi, MH17.
"Indian PM Narendra Modi's First Tweet about MH17". Twitter. Narendra Modi. Retrieved 18 July 2014. {{
cite web}}
: External link in
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link). Notably, his return flight from
6th Summit of
BRICS (
Fortaleza,
Brazil) was bound to take the same route within few hours Modi Flight, MH17 Route (18 July 2014).
"Indian PM Narendra Modi was to take same route that of MH17".
http://www.thehindu.com. No. Online. The Hindu. The Hindu. Retrieved 18 July 2014. |ref=
{{
cite news}}
: External link in
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link).
Mahiru Foundation (
talk)
06:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
|ref=
and |work=
Punjabi doesn't mean Indian.He is Malaysian
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Flight timeline is wrong. Flightradar24 states that plane lost contact at 13:15 UTC, not 14:15 UTC as stated in the article. The picture to the right of the timeline was improperly corrected to conform to the timeline and should be reverted back to the original state. Exemplary snapshot of the flightradar at the moment of the mh17's demise: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxF_J_CcAAycNi.png:large Jd31415 ( talk) 04:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
There is, as of this writing, no confirmation that there were Americans onboard. Wikipedia is not news, but an encyclopedia; wait for confirmation on deaths. Iselilja ( talk) 08:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Tsarapoid ( talk) 08:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM AndyTheGrump ( talk) 05:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is a concern for me, because the underside of MH, UA, and AA jets are painted grey (the same color as Air Force and Navy jets). This should be a notable concern that should be noted in this article. As an aside, insurance premiums should be greater on civilian aircraft painted grey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk • contribs) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
During a press conference that I watched on TVP Info, Security Service of Ukraine informed that it had recorded a phone call between pro-Russian separatist leader Igor Bezler and Russian colonel Geranin, in which Bezler informs that the plane has been shot down by one of the separatist groups. Here's a Polish report by Gazeta Wyborcza mentioning the conversation, and that people who shot down the plane went to the site of the crash and only then realised that it had been a civilian aircraft. Also, here is a transcript in English which sounds similar to the conversation played on Polish television, however I have no idea who has uploaded it. Would be nice to find some English-language reliable sources on this, or the video from the press conference (a part of it was in English). — Mayast ( talk) 20:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. It was Mineman’s Group. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast). Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking. VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago. SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhino folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhino check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino. “Greek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (military code word for a dead person or “killed in action”). We have found the first “200”. A civilian. “Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft. “Greek”: Are many people there? Putin wanted to make sure it was a complete success.
“Major”: It’s a total cluster-f*ck! The debris fell right into people’s yards (of homes). “Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t figured it out yet, I haven’t been to the main site. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies. “Greek”: I got it [obviously annoyed]. Any weapons at all?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper. “Greek”: Any documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
The next conversation took place between an unidentified militant and the leader of Don Cossacks Nikolay Kozitsyn:
Militant: About that plane shot down in the area of Snizhne/Torez. It turned out to be a passenger [plane]. It fell down in the area of Grabovo [or Hrabove – Ukr.]. There are tons of dead bodies – women, children. The Cossacks are looking at all that now.
Militant: They are saying on TV now that it’s allegedly an An-26 cargo plane, but they also say that it has “Malaysian Airlines” written on it. What did it do over the territory of Ukraine?
Kozitsyn: Then it means they were bringing in spies, understood? Shouldn’t have f*ckin flown here, it’s a war going on. My very best wishes ( talk) 21:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
On SBU's official website you can see transcriptions of the conversations in several languages. The English one is published on Youtube here. 128.189.191.60 ( talk) 00:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
addition to See Also
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Indian mentioned in the article is not an Indian ,he is Malaysian Tekkanphan ( talk) 10:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The whole section on the cause of the crash deals only with allegations against Russia and contains anti-Russian statements made by Ukraine or the United States, whereby all other presumptions casting doubt on the involvement of the Ukrainian armed forces or any other relevant parties are apparently concealed. Thus, the neutrality of the article is heavily breached as it leans towards favouring a side in the whole story. I think it's necessary to tag the section with the appropriate tag until its current content is counterbalanced.-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 07:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I also find violation of the neutral point of view in the rest of the article. For example, the intro reports on what the American intelligence officials speculate about the crash. Frankly, it's a bit strange to me when Wikipedia has become means to reveal speculations. Seems like the whole article needs improvements as it chiefly informs about how the others speculate on Russian involvement when no results from the official investigation have been disclosed yet. Therefore, I'll place the tag on the top of the article.-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 07:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
(deindenting) Kiril, I added a few statements from Russian media and the article already cites a number of Russian and DNR media sources. Note that the perceived imbalance may originate from the fact that itw as Russian media that openly reported shooting of Ukrainian airplanes by DNR using "Buk" until yesterday evening when they realized it was a passenger plane and changed their coverage completely. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 09:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
When did posts on social networks like Facebook and Twitter become relevant sources on the same level of official statements and reports? Having in mind that there are numerous accounts on Facebook and Twitter for same things, how did one conclude that the messages were posted from the official accounts and that the people using them are exactly those that are presumed to be?-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 09:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:AVINAME 60.242.1.97 ( talk) 10:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
MH 17 is a normally scheduled flight and will resume service (possibly under a new flight number) between AMS and KUL in the coming days. Also, MH 17 flew on 16 July, 15 July, etc., without incident. This needs to reflect information only related to the crash occurring on 17 July. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:503C:3F40:1573:7BD5:261E:DA46 ( talk) 09:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
|
Joep Lange has been named as one of the passengers. [9] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 23:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Initial reports and videos suggest that MH17 disintegrated and exploded upon impact due to the remaining jet fuel igniting." This is unclear, as it could be taken to mean the aircraft was intact until ground impact, or that it "disintegrated" at some unspecified time and altitude and to an unspecified extent and subsequently exploded on impact," which seems more in step with reports that bodies landed 15km away from the site. "Disintegrate" also suggests old science fiction disintegrator rayguns. Edison ( talk) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The international reactions section is really nonsensical, it should be removed. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 17:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
As to its actual contents, my personal opinion can be found above, at the post at 19:16 UTC. For reasons to exclude, I wouldn't be the best person to ask, as I'm pro-inclusion. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 20:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Remove - Never seen such a section on any other plane crash page or terrorism page (e.g., Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 and 9/11). It's WP:UNDUE and unencyclopedic. It adds nothing to the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 02:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
None of this discusses if and how the section is biased nor how to address it. Unless that is established, the tag should be removed (whether or not you like such sections). The Dissident Aggressor 19:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe there should be a separate article on the reactions. Also I remember when I first visited this article, there were more international responses than now. I've tracked down the edits responsible for the removal of so many responses: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] Also why were YouTube links removed? They are quite interesting. -- UA Victory ( talk) 21:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
As Australia is hosting the G20 in Brisbane this year, and as they sustained the third highest loss of life, there is current talk about inflicting sanctions on Russia and even blocking them from attending the G20. Should this not be mentioned?-- Empire of War ( talk) 12:18, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay thanks-- Empire of War ( talk) 12:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Variuos users in good standings add in this section a list of all possible air disaster. I personally removed them already six times, but they pop up all over again. May be it is time to discuss what we want to have in this section.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 13:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Just noticed the template at the top. Is this really an issue? -- Pingumeister( talk) 19:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Who directed the plane into the war zone where planes were shot down before? Was it done by Malaysian airline or was the route directed by Ukrainian air control? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Telegraph notes unusual route of the plane
Danny Fyne, a commercial pilot voiced surprise at route taken by the Malaysian flight given that a Ukrainian transport plane had been shot down earlier this week. "Flights have already been diverted away from Crimea," he said. "I find it unusual that the flight went over this area." -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I've noticed that this article cites YouTube and Twitter a number of times, such as [20], [21], and [22]. Shouldn't these be removed until better sources can be found? G S Palmer ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There are official Youtube and Twitter sources that can sometimes be cited. It depends on who the account belongs to (reliable?) and just what the claim is. If the claim is that a black plume of smoke arose of unconfirmed origin or location then the Youtube video would support that. One has to use one's intelligence here: how likely is it that the source is right or wrong? We have rules of thumb but that doesn't mean testing for unreliability is unthinking. It is not reasonable to believe that the FlightRadar tweet is somehow fake; both it and another tweet at issue here also appears on the NY Times website.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 00:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In the MH370 timeline, it shows the time when the flight missed its arrival time. Should we include that here? If we do, it would be at 20 Jul 2014 @ 06:10 MYT, 12h10m into the flight. According to http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en.html Anthonyliu ( talk) 15:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I was reading that 16 airlines use that route as it save on fuel costs when traversing Ukrainian airspace.
Can we get a list of airlines that flew that route?
That is to prevent people from blaming Malaysian airlines as the only airline that flies over a warzone. 121.217.42.243 ( talk) 09:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Where is the source? The current source, http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html, shows different numbers than the chart. Anthonyliu ( talk)
Does anybody know when the airline will retire the MH17 designation for its AMS-KUL route? I know that the airline retired the MH370 designation on its red-eye KUL-PEK-KUL route after Flight 370 disappeared. The airline's website flight status for AMS-KUL (MH17) is still showing as "On Time" departure for 18 July 2014. I think we should give Malaysia Airlines a couple of days to retire the flight number. 68.119.73.36 ( talk) 04:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Possibly I am not completely up-to-date, and possibly some people have more information than I have. Nevertheless: is it not too early to make a wikipedia page about something whose circumstances are yet unclear? 188.87.231.11 ( talk) 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
"About 100 of the 298 people killed at the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference" [26] - this is a noteworthy addition to the article. 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 02:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
From [27]: "conference organizers said they had only been able to confirm seven names. ... 'we think the actual number is much smaller'" I removed the count from the article due to this. A minor bit of good news, perhaps. 9kat ( talk) 16:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
We're currently linking directly to Ukranian Wikipedia's article on uk:Hrabove; should this be a redlink instead? Microchip08 ( talk) 17:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
NOS has mentioned that two different travel agencies have confirmed that Dutch travellers have booked for the flight. It is not mentioned how many have boarded the aircraft, but it does mention that D-reizen has had 25 Dutch bookings and World Ticket Center (a Dutch online travel agency) has had approximately twenty to thirty bookings. Please see the following ref. http://nos.nl/liveblog/676042-vliegtuig-uit-adam-neergestort.html (Dutch) Christian299 ( talk) 17:38, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
How do you know that the infobox picture is one of 9M-MRD ? I don't see that in the file description on Commons and I can't see the tail number at that resolution. Simon Villeneuve ( talk) 17:02, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The image has been changed to one showing the aircraft in an earlier livery. Should it be changed back? Mjroots ( talk) 18:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The New York Daily News has some images of the crash site up. Abductive ( reasoning) 17:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I think considering the importance of WP:V, having the table figures referenced is appropriate (especially at this early stage). Tables often have refs. Widefox; talk 19:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Anyone have an id on the AP reporter or where he said it, or if he has repeated his statement about the sighting after the crash? Oathed ( talk) 17:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Link to twitter pic of Buk system in alleged rebel town: Via speigel.de https://twitter.com/michelhenrion/status/489823022090838017/photo/1 (User: B_part)
That is background generic information it has nothing to do with THIS incident so why add it before reactions? Its commonplace on incident pages to put the aircraft info in background( Lihaas ( talk) 18:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have removed the reaction from countries with no official involvement and also comments from some american politician are not that important. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
It seems US VP Biden has confirmation from the Pentagon that the plane was indeed short down by a SAM missile. e.g http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5913609/biden-blown-out-of-the-sky/in/5677250 http://www.cnbc.com/id/101838653 Arnoutf ( talk) 21:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
If were gonna quote one side saying rebels fired, then we should the other side saying ukraine fired it for NPOV Lihaas ( talk) 18:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I just undid an edit that placed the passengers and crew in separate columns as all of the crew are from Malaysia, as such having 0s in all of the other countries is redundant. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Here I removed the following clause because I could not find any support for it in the two cites given in section "Cause":
, and linking to video of smoking wreckage of the 777.
My edit comment was "removed claim video showed 777 wreckage as not found in the cites; please only reinsert with precise and reliable citing to avoid OR". The whole section is also problematic in that it does not follow a chronological order, and appears (to me at least) to rely on unreliable ephemeral sources. - 84user ( talk) 21:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Since it hasn't even confirmed the plane was shot down, it feels WP:UNDUE to have a picture of the Buk missile prominently featured under "Cause". Let's wait until sources confirm more than just initial speculation and a reporter seeing something. 9kat ( talk) 18:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Peter Leonhard saw it, or maybe he thinks he saw it ? He knows BUK system, is he expert ? -- 94.140.88.117 ( talk) 18:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
It was codesharing with KLM as KL4103 should we mention that? Were there other codeshares on this flight? Arnoutf ( talk) 16:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I moved this to a footnote earlier, but now we have the full KLM flight numbers too. It really clutters up the lead, so I moved it back to the footnote. No reliable sources are using the KLM flight number, so it's not something that makes sense to bold. A footnote makes the most sense since we can fully describe it as a codeshare there. (I'm following what the MH370 article does on this.) 9kat ( talk) 22:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
This appears to be the deadliest air disaster since the 1980 Saudia Flight 163 incident. Is this accurate, and if is it significant enough to be mentioned? It feels to me that it should be added in the paragraph about the number of deaths (and how it outstrips MH370). Prokhorovka ( talk) 22:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Why is this article SP'd? I see no good reason whatsoever. See MH370 for a kind of policy on this type of (fast-moving, current news) article. 82.31.18.26 ( talk) 18:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Protection is a very very good idea here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 18:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Similar incidents
Air Rhodesia Flight 825 - passenger plane shot down by insurgents Air Rhodesia Flight 827 - passenger plane shot down by insurgents
Rolfthelemite ( talk) 23:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement from King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands. [3] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 00:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hey, I'm not a wiki editor so I'll leave it to you guys and gals. But, international standard aviation altitudes are actually measured in feet. This "33000 feet" is the correct usage.
Change this line: This is the second time a Malaysia Airlines aircraft has been involved in a serious incident in 2014, after Flight 370 disappeared en route to Beijing on 8 March 2014. - it shouldn't say involved, it should say 'victim of', being involved means they orchestrated(in part) in this context
Reports from Interfax and Reuters are saying this was shot down. -- Kuzwa ( talk) 15:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
reportedly shot down by a buk missile - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system - the plane would be within range even at maximum cruising altitude for a 777. "..can begin tracking at the missile's maximum range (32 km/20 mi) and can track aircraft flying at between 15 m and 22,000 m (50 to 72,000 ft) altitudes. It can guide up to three missiles against a single target." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.71.135.38 ( talk) 16:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-jet-reportedly-crashes-in-ukraine/ HammerFilmFan ( talk) 16:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have already made many useful edits to this page whilst not logged in ( ip=91.125.15.174). I have now made this new account. Flyer500 ( talk) 17:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Uninvolved admin here - lets be straight about this. The article will be kept in as neutral tones as possible, quoting from reliable sources wherever possible. Said sources are not, repeat not, required to be neutral, that is our job. The semi-protection is valid IMVHO, for the reasons given when it was imposed. Where an involved admin makes a move that any other reasonable admin may have come to of their own volition, generally, that move may be seen as permissible. This is a hot topic at the moment, and is directly linked from the Main Page. Once things die down a bit, we can look at unprotecting the article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Sin Chew has released the names of the 15 crew. [6] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 00:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why aren't they being included in table? nationality can be taken as Malaysian till more information comes out, atleast the number is confirmed, there were two captains, two first officers and eleven cabin attendants according to Malaysian Wings forum, where MH insiders and people with contacts in the airline post. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 20:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I thought there was a discussion going on. Why was this removed arbitrarily? 99.245.11.41 ( talk) 01:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I had removed this section as undue and unencyclopedic (as a bold edit, reverted by Knowledgekid87). I've not seen such a section on any other plane crash wiki page (and I've checked a fair number working on days of the year pages). For example, no such list on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 or even 9/11. It adds no information to the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 01:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi, according to BBC and CNN news: the airplane just shot down by a missile and lost contact located in Ukraine areas. However the Boeing 777 is a good airplane/aircraft and never crashes, that involved 3 of them were lost. -- Allen talk 02:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So, someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I am noticing that the coordinates, as written in the article, are closer to Petropavlivka than Hrabove. Where did we get the coordinates, as I am tempted to change the closest village if the coordinates are indeed correct. Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 21:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM AndyTheGrump ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
For a small airline, the airline's reduction in its 777 fleet size will greatly impact its's ability to serve its global destinations. Please monitor this because it will surely change. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 04:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
I noticed that the People on board by country table in the article mainly reflected information from the Malaysian Airlines official press release, but supplemented it with "23 US deaths" based on this Independent article, which in turn cited "Ukrainian Interior Ministry" for that number. While Independent is a reliable source in general, in cases of fast moving and often conflicting real-time reporting, I think it is best to stick to official stats rather than try and mix and match data from sources of varying reliability and timeliness. So for the moment I have edited the table to match the Malaysian Airlines official data. If the US deaths are indeed confirmed by the airline or say the US state department, we can update the table accordingly. Abecedare ( talk) 05:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How about sticking to known facts before jumping to conclusions about blame and responsibility?
At the very least, non-neutral and unverified statements from Western media about Russia should be identified as such. "Western media claims..." or "The U.S. State Department claims..." should be inserted before such statements in the interests of maintaining NPOV.
I say this as a "neutral": I am neither Western nor Russian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.229.28 ( talk) 05:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Was it 13:15UTC or 14:15UTC? Nathan121212 ( talk) 22:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
13:15 UTC. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/here-real-time-flight-path-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh-17 Anthonyliu ( talk) 23:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The time was 13:20 UTC. I work in Dnipropetrovsk Air Traffic Control Centre, and I know precisely — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
46.98.52.28 (
talk)
05:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
08:11AM 51.2265 24.8316 107° East 562MPH 33,000 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK/tracklog — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.71.135.38 ( talk) 16:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
AJAM reported that there would be complicated jurisdictional issues among Interstate Aviation Committee and NTSB and Dutch Safety Board. This is pertinent to the article and should be included. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 05:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
WP:NOTFORUM Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Reposting due to WP:NOTAFORUM. Please consider the fact that I rephrased my post. The Ukrainian was quick to call the Dutch PM to express condolences, but not the Malaysian PM. I am seeking a source and explanation of this differences. UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk) 05:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC |
Both ITAR-TASS ( Original, Archive) and RIA Novosti ( Translated copy) published articles making the claim that seperatists shot down a Ukrainian An-26 in the same area yesterday. As of right now , no one has seen this downed An-26 so I think it can be assumed that such articles are making reference to MH17. In that case, they should be mentioned. -- Simfan34 ( talk) 02:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The New York Times: "Rebels have claimed responsibility for attacking a Ukrainian military jet as it landed in the city of Luhansk on June 14, and for felling an AN-26 transport plane on Monday and an SU-25 fighter jet on Wednesday."-- Brian Dell ( talk) 04:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to link to List of airliner shootdown incidents from "See also" so long as it's still uncertain whether the plane was, in fact, shot down? I mean, I personally think that it's well-possible, bordering on extremely likely, but personal beliefs and opinions don't belong on Wikipedia. To me, linking from this to List of airliner shootdown incidents feels extremely similar to adding something like List of serial killers in the United States on an alleged serial killer, to be honest. However, I suspect that removing it would be considered controversial, so I'm not going to remove it without more opinions. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 18:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia's reliable source policy calls for reliable sources, not "official" ones. In my view, by the weekend and perhaps even before we should be able to say whether or not there are enough reliable sources suggesting a shoot-down to warrant inclusion. Wikipedia is not absolutely infallible such that nothing is included that has not been confirmed 500 times.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 00:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why MH370 is in this section. The coincidence of it being the same airline doesn't justify it being in this section in this article. Totally different incident with zero speculation anywhere that MH370 was shot down. There's already mention of it in the article content anyway. The 2002 Mombasa attacks would even be better suited here. -- Oakshade ( talk) 06:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under section International Reaction, this information may be added:
Indian PM
Narendra Modi expressed his condolence for those who are affected Modi, MH17.
"Indian PM Narendra Modi's First Tweet about MH17". Twitter. Narendra Modi. Retrieved 18 July 2014. {{
cite web}}
: External link in
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link). Notably, his return flight from
6th Summit of
BRICS (
Fortaleza,
Brazil) was bound to take the same route within few hours Modi Flight, MH17 Route (18 July 2014).
"Indian PM Narendra Modi was to take same route that of MH17".
http://www.thehindu.com. No. Online. The Hindu. The Hindu. Retrieved 18 July 2014. |ref=
{{
cite news}}
: External link in
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link).
Mahiru Foundation (
talk)
06:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
|ref=
and |work=
Punjabi doesn't mean Indian.He is Malaysian
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Flight timeline is wrong. Flightradar24 states that plane lost contact at 13:15 UTC, not 14:15 UTC as stated in the article. The picture to the right of the timeline was improperly corrected to conform to the timeline and should be reverted back to the original state. Exemplary snapshot of the flightradar at the moment of the mh17's demise: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxF_J_CcAAycNi.png:large Jd31415 ( talk) 04:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
There is, as of this writing, no confirmation that there were Americans onboard. Wikipedia is not news, but an encyclopedia; wait for confirmation on deaths. Iselilja ( talk) 08:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Tsarapoid ( talk) 08:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM AndyTheGrump ( talk) 05:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is a concern for me, because the underside of MH, UA, and AA jets are painted grey (the same color as Air Force and Navy jets). This should be a notable concern that should be noted in this article. As an aside, insurance premiums should be greater on civilian aircraft painted grey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UFO and Bermuda Triangle ( talk • contribs) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
During a press conference that I watched on TVP Info, Security Service of Ukraine informed that it had recorded a phone call between pro-Russian separatist leader Igor Bezler and Russian colonel Geranin, in which Bezler informs that the plane has been shot down by one of the separatist groups. Here's a Polish report by Gazeta Wyborcza mentioning the conversation, and that people who shot down the plane went to the site of the crash and only then realised that it had been a civilian aircraft. Also, here is a transcript in English which sounds similar to the conversation played on Polish television, however I have no idea who has uploaded it. Would be nice to find some English-language reliable sources on this, or the video from the press conference (a part of it was in English). — Mayast ( talk) 20:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. It was Mineman’s Group. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast). Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking. VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago. SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhino folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhino check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino. “Greek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (military code word for a dead person or “killed in action”). We have found the first “200”. A civilian. “Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft. “Greek”: Are many people there? Putin wanted to make sure it was a complete success.
“Major”: It’s a total cluster-f*ck! The debris fell right into people’s yards (of homes). “Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t figured it out yet, I haven’t been to the main site. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies. “Greek”: I got it [obviously annoyed]. Any weapons at all?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper. “Greek”: Any documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
The next conversation took place between an unidentified militant and the leader of Don Cossacks Nikolay Kozitsyn:
Militant: About that plane shot down in the area of Snizhne/Torez. It turned out to be a passenger [plane]. It fell down in the area of Grabovo [or Hrabove – Ukr.]. There are tons of dead bodies – women, children. The Cossacks are looking at all that now.
Militant: They are saying on TV now that it’s allegedly an An-26 cargo plane, but they also say that it has “Malaysian Airlines” written on it. What did it do over the territory of Ukraine?
Kozitsyn: Then it means they were bringing in spies, understood? Shouldn’t have f*ckin flown here, it’s a war going on. My very best wishes ( talk) 21:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
On SBU's official website you can see transcriptions of the conversations in several languages. The English one is published on Youtube here. 128.189.191.60 ( talk) 00:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
addition to See Also
![]() | This
edit request to
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Indian mentioned in the article is not an Indian ,he is Malaysian Tekkanphan ( talk) 10:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The whole section on the cause of the crash deals only with allegations against Russia and contains anti-Russian statements made by Ukraine or the United States, whereby all other presumptions casting doubt on the involvement of the Ukrainian armed forces or any other relevant parties are apparently concealed. Thus, the neutrality of the article is heavily breached as it leans towards favouring a side in the whole story. I think it's necessary to tag the section with the appropriate tag until its current content is counterbalanced.-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 07:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I also find violation of the neutral point of view in the rest of the article. For example, the intro reports on what the American intelligence officials speculate about the crash. Frankly, it's a bit strange to me when Wikipedia has become means to reveal speculations. Seems like the whole article needs improvements as it chiefly informs about how the others speculate on Russian involvement when no results from the official investigation have been disclosed yet. Therefore, I'll place the tag on the top of the article.-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 07:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
(deindenting) Kiril, I added a few statements from Russian media and the article already cites a number of Russian and DNR media sources. Note that the perceived imbalance may originate from the fact that itw as Russian media that openly reported shooting of Ukrainian airplanes by DNR using "Buk" until yesterday evening when they realized it was a passenger plane and changed their coverage completely. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 09:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
When did posts on social networks like Facebook and Twitter become relevant sources on the same level of official statements and reports? Having in mind that there are numerous accounts on Facebook and Twitter for same things, how did one conclude that the messages were posted from the official accounts and that the people using them are exactly those that are presumed to be?-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 09:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:AVINAME 60.242.1.97 ( talk) 10:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
MH 17 is a normally scheduled flight and will resume service (possibly under a new flight number) between AMS and KUL in the coming days. Also, MH 17 flew on 16 July, 15 July, etc., without incident. This needs to reflect information only related to the crash occurring on 17 July. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:503C:3F40:1573:7BD5:261E:DA46 ( talk) 09:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
|
Joep Lange has been named as one of the passengers. [9] 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 23:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Initial reports and videos suggest that MH17 disintegrated and exploded upon impact due to the remaining jet fuel igniting." This is unclear, as it could be taken to mean the aircraft was intact until ground impact, or that it "disintegrated" at some unspecified time and altitude and to an unspecified extent and subsequently exploded on impact," which seems more in step with reports that bodies landed 15km away from the site. "Disintegrate" also suggests old science fiction disintegrator rayguns. Edison ( talk) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The international reactions section is really nonsensical, it should be removed. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 17:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
As to its actual contents, my personal opinion can be found above, at the post at 19:16 UTC. For reasons to exclude, I wouldn't be the best person to ask, as I'm pro-inclusion. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 20:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Remove - Never seen such a section on any other plane crash page or terrorism page (e.g., Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 and 9/11). It's WP:UNDUE and unencyclopedic. It adds nothing to the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 02:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
None of this discusses if and how the section is biased nor how to address it. Unless that is established, the tag should be removed (whether or not you like such sections). The Dissident Aggressor 19:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe there should be a separate article on the reactions. Also I remember when I first visited this article, there were more international responses than now. I've tracked down the edits responsible for the removal of so many responses: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] Also why were YouTube links removed? They are quite interesting. -- UA Victory ( talk) 21:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
As Australia is hosting the G20 in Brisbane this year, and as they sustained the third highest loss of life, there is current talk about inflicting sanctions on Russia and even blocking them from attending the G20. Should this not be mentioned?-- Empire of War ( talk) 12:18, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay thanks-- Empire of War ( talk) 12:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Variuos users in good standings add in this section a list of all possible air disaster. I personally removed them already six times, but they pop up all over again. May be it is time to discuss what we want to have in this section.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 13:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Just noticed the template at the top. Is this really an issue? -- Pingumeister( talk) 19:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Who directed the plane into the war zone where planes were shot down before? Was it done by Malaysian airline or was the route directed by Ukrainian air control? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Telegraph notes unusual route of the plane
Danny Fyne, a commercial pilot voiced surprise at route taken by the Malaysian flight given that a Ukrainian transport plane had been shot down earlier this week. "Flights have already been diverted away from Crimea," he said. "I find it unusual that the flight went over this area." -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I've noticed that this article cites YouTube and Twitter a number of times, such as [20], [21], and [22]. Shouldn't these be removed until better sources can be found? G S Palmer ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There are official Youtube and Twitter sources that can sometimes be cited. It depends on who the account belongs to (reliable?) and just what the claim is. If the claim is that a black plume of smoke arose of unconfirmed origin or location then the Youtube video would support that. One has to use one's intelligence here: how likely is it that the source is right or wrong? We have rules of thumb but that doesn't mean testing for unreliability is unthinking. It is not reasonable to believe that the FlightRadar tweet is somehow fake; both it and another tweet at issue here also appears on the NY Times website.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 00:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In the MH370 timeline, it shows the time when the flight missed its arrival time. Should we include that here? If we do, it would be at 20 Jul 2014 @ 06:10 MYT, 12h10m into the flight. According to http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en.html Anthonyliu ( talk) 15:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I was reading that 16 airlines use that route as it save on fuel costs when traversing Ukrainian airspace.
Can we get a list of airlines that flew that route?
That is to prevent people from blaming Malaysian airlines as the only airline that flies over a warzone. 121.217.42.243 ( talk) 09:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Where is the source? The current source, http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html, shows different numbers than the chart. Anthonyliu ( talk)
Does anybody know when the airline will retire the MH17 designation for its AMS-KUL route? I know that the airline retired the MH370 designation on its red-eye KUL-PEK-KUL route after Flight 370 disappeared. The airline's website flight status for AMS-KUL (MH17) is still showing as "On Time" departure for 18 July 2014. I think we should give Malaysia Airlines a couple of days to retire the flight number. 68.119.73.36 ( talk) 04:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Possibly I am not completely up-to-date, and possibly some people have more information than I have. Nevertheless: is it not too early to make a wikipedia page about something whose circumstances are yet unclear? 188.87.231.11 ( talk) 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
"About 100 of the 298 people killed at the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference" [26] - this is a noteworthy addition to the article. 203.9.185.136 ( talk) 02:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
From [27]: "conference organizers said they had only been able to confirm seven names. ... 'we think the actual number is much smaller'" I removed the count from the article due to this. A minor bit of good news, perhaps. 9kat ( talk) 16:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)