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Archive 1 |
Al Nakba gets 2.3 million hits and has passed into the English language. It's also clearer in scope than the previous three titles of this list. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The link to Dansk (language) doesn't work. 79.177.122.32 ( talk) 14:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was oppose: Most people know that there was a mass refugee movement out of Palestine in 1948, but far fewer English-speakers outside the Muslim communities have much knowledge of Arabic words or know what a nakba is. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 22:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War → List of towns and villages depopulated during Al-Nakba — (or the Nakba/Al Nakba, whichever is most appropriate). SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The title of this list has changed several times in its lifetime. It was originally created to be a list of Palestinian villages depopulated in 1948 by the Israelis (by expulsion or creating an atmosphere of fear). It is an issue that is the subject of current scholarly research. Israeli editors then added the names of a few Jewish towns from which inhabitants fled. Then it was changed from during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War to 1948 Palestine War, and then changed to list of Arab towns, and then the 1967 war was added, and there have been other changes I don't recall. Now "Arab" has been removed again by LuvGoldStar ( talk · contribs). All the changes serve to obfuscate the basic issue.
I therefore propose that we call this "List of towns and villages depopulated during Al-Nakba". Al-Nakba is the name for the expulsions and flight, and the reasons behind them. It is what the Palestinian and other historians call it. It has passed into the English language. It gets over two million hits on Google. [1] It means the list is clearly about the Palestinian towns and villages that were emptied, not Jewish towns. It is the former that is the subject of ongoing scholarly research, and it is what this list is about. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the list it seems that it totally relies on two historians (Morris and Khalidi) --and mostly Morris-- to document them. Seems a bit weak on support. Does Israel acknowledge that it was responsible for the evacuation of each of these villages, or is there some dispute over this? Have the list and the accusations been checked for accuracy? Stellarkid ( talk) 01:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
You say above: "We need a list of villages destroyed during Al Nakba..." Some of these villages, or maybe many of them, were abandoned. This does not necessarily speak to "destruction," even if the villages were later repopulated with Israelis (assuming they were so). For example the difference might be such as that in Gaza, when instead of simply repopulating the Gaza greenhouses and synagogues and homes, many were actually destroyed. One needs to be careful with how we express such things. "Abandonment" is one thing, "destruction" quite another. Stellarkid ( talk) 03:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
The lede has problems in my view. There is presented a list of "towns and villages that were depopulated or destroyed" but there is no differentiation between them. How many, or what percentage in this list were "entirely depopulated and destroyed"? How many "entirely... destroyed"? How many "were left with a few hundred residents" and then presumably repopulated with Jews and renamed? ie only partially "depopulated." How many left voluntarily to avoid hostilities generated by both sides? It is well known that some did leave voluntarily and so acknowledged by both Morris and Khalidi, if memory serves. Further, the majority of towns listed do not have any obvious support(sources) given by either Morris or Khalidi. Is this an attempt to imply more than what is actually known about these towns? I would think these are fair questions for such an important subject, and the use of "some" in the lede in this context is highly prejudicial. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry that went up to soon. But I think I understand what is troubling me about the lede, finally. I am posting it here as it stands.
This is a list of Palestinian-Arab towns and villages that were depopulated or destroyed during the 1948 Palestine War, as a result of the flight of the Palestinian residents or their expulsion by the Israel Defense Forces. Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed. Towns and villages are arranged according to the subdistrict of the pre-1948 British Mandate of Palestine they were situated in.
Notice the passive voice. The Palestinian Arabs towns were acted upon . They were expelled, they were depopulated or were destroyed" Both terms are used in two of the three sentences of the lede. (Some) villages "were left" (more passive voice) with a "few hundred residents" (what was the original population?). The only bit that could be considered active voice is where it is said that the Palestinian residents "fled;" however, even this is presented as a reaction to something that was imposed upon them from outside, so basically still passive.
When referring to the Jews, however, the situation is reversed. It is all active voice. The Jews expelled, destroyed, repopulated. I believe quite a few of these Arab towns were left (some would argue "abandoned") prior to the establishment of Israel and the IDF, so I am not sure it is fair to refer to the Israel Defense Forces in this context. All in all, aside from the title there is nothing here that provides context. Are we to understand, or are we meant to understand, that no attacks against Jews were initiated from any of these villages? That there were no heavy weapons used on the Jewish Quarter in some of these towns? See Safed for example, a town that is on this list. Maybe it is true that each of these villages were indeed destroyed by the Jewish army of the time; but I think lumping of all these towns under such an umbrella requires (a lot) more evidence than is offered here. 95% of these villages don't offer so much as a footnote, so we must take it on faith. Stellarkid ( talk) 02:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I moved the article back to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War because this term is more neutral and more encompassing.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer moved this in July without discussion from "List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War" to the current title. [2]
I would like to move it back, but can't without using the tools, so I'm opening it up here for discussion, then we can ask an uninvolved admin to move it if there's consensus.
There are three reasons to move it back to 1948 Palestine War, an umbrella term historians use for the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that followed the creation of Israel.
1. Brewcrewer moved it without discussion, even though it's clearly somewhat contentious.
2. The list includes areas depopulated before the Arab-Israeli War began on May 15, 1948: see, for example, Deir Yassin massacre, which occurred in April 1948.
3. The associated template uses 1948 Palestine War: Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 21:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the use by historians of the term 1948 Palestine War, this discussion may be helpful. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree:
Disagree:
Comments:
The discussion pointed out by Slim Virgin above found here [3] has a list of WP notables who refer to the 1948 Palestine War. I thought it would be reasonable to add a list of those who refer to it as the 1948 or First Arab-Israeli War. Some authors mentioned may not have a WP page, but all are notable academics.
Then there are the many, many more who refer to the time as "Israel's War of Independence" such as John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt in "The Israel lobby and U.S. foreign policy" pg 82 Avi Shlaim, Netanel Lorch , Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, Joseph Heckelman, Martin Gilbert, Arthur Goldschmidt, Reuven Gal, Donna Rosenthal , Chiam Herzog, Tom Segev, Efraim Karsh, Jacob Abadi, Anthony Pagden, Birdsall S. Viault, Alan M. Dershowitz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stellarkid ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Stellrakid, the oldest of these publications is more recent than the most recent of yours. More, all the sensibilities are covered :
Did you read the book you provide ? They start to talk about event starting on 15 May. I hope, because Israel didn't exist before and the War started on November 30, 1947. 81.244.176.116 ( talk) 07:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The list of books and authors put up by 81.244.176.116 to evidence that these authors use the term "1948 Palestine war" as a blanket term to cover pre- & post-May 14 can be referenced and searched at Google books which I did, with interesting results.
I think the authors given as support for the general usage of "1948 Palestine War" are not at all unanimous or unambiguous. Karsh & Khalidi yes. Gelber, maybe, Tal, Morris, Jawad, Shlaim, no. Stellarkid ( talk) 03:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Please work on the first sentence. It's now an awkward runon sentence. -- Shuki ( talk) 21:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Why wouldn't it be appropriate to redirect move (?) this article to the
1948 Palestinian exodus instead of to the war articles?
Stellarkid (
talk)
18:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
01:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, a move (i.e. change of title) to "List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus" is a reasonable suggestion. What do others think about it? Zero talk 04:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It is clear that the article currently entitled 1948 Palestinian exodus is what this list should appropriately point to. It is the parent article. Stellarkid ( talk) 00:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Chesdovi, could you please present a source here that relate the villages being depopulated in the Palestine War with those depopulated of Jews during the Holocaust? nableezy - 15:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a list and not an article; therefore there is no need to harp on about the hypothetical case of it being a “perfect articleâ€. WP:ALSO also says: “Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. Links included in the "See also" section may be useful for readers seeking to read as much about a topic as possible, including subjects only peripherally related to the one in question.â€
These topics are not "peripherally related". I view both subjects inextricably linked. I do not need to provide a source. If you are so intent on there being one, find it yourself! Chesdovi ( talk) 17:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an consensus for the move to the title given in the lead. Could someone take care of this ? I can't. Thanks. 81.244.165.107 ( talk) 07:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
The page should not be moved from its original name until there's a consensus, something that was not clear prior to the previous move. We should get the opinion of those opposing the previous proposal before doing anything too exciting.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 05:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
As brewcrewer has yet to explain any actual objection to the name, and has made reverting his move impossible by making garbage edits to the new name, and the name has consensus above could an admin please move this page to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus?
The move is done, let's move on. Zero talk 14:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was consensus against move as inaccurate.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus → List of Arab towns and villages destroyed by Israel during the 1948 Palestinian exodus — This need to be rename to List of Arab towns and villages destroyed by Israel during the 1948 Palestinian exodus because it more factual. Depopulate be Pro-Israel POV in attempt to de emphasize the destruction. Other discussion on important article rename be here too [5] Ani medjool ( talk) 23:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I support name change to nakba. Ani medjool ( talk) 00:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
It would be a good idea if Wikipedia could verify to what extent Arab Christians were affected by the 1948 depopulation movement. Before 1948, Palestine was often described by Orientalists as having at least 20-25Â % of Christians at the beginning of the 20th century, but it was only after the Israeli victory (or "Nakba") that the Palestinian people acquired a predominantly Muslim status. It is therefore possible that the expropriation and emigration movements that took place between 1948 and 1967 had a more immediate effect on the local Christian commmunity, which had a long-established presence in key regions such as Galilee and East Jerusalem. ADM ( talk) 19:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
It might be useful to add that Arab Christians - who might have been more like 20-25% in the early 20th century - began leaving in the Ottoman period because of more persecution by authorities. Also, there are references by Walid Khalidi and others that state that religion was very vague to many Palestinian villagers in the early 20th century and before. Many times they celebrated both Christian holidays and Muslim ones unaware if they were Muslim or Christian (so the numbers might be a bit hard to determine). Achamy ( talk) 20:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
There are a number of places depopulated by Arabs that were relatively diverse mixed towns... Such as Romema. How do we reconcile this. Should we change the title to perhaps "Areas depopulated? Achamy ( talk) 21:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
When you add a comment like "massacre April 9th 1948" it introduce an controversial information without proper context.
I believe that this is a violation of WP:NPOV and should be removed. I agree that it justified to have a link to an article about the issue where the sucject is fully explained. Bbeehvh ( talk) 13:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I looked at almost all the names in this article and although i didn't count, i got the perception that there were more hamlets than villages. Should the title be changed to reflect this? 89.242.82.200 ( talk) 16:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a list of depopulated villages. There is no scientific definition of depopulated, but the lead says "Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed."
Haifa lost much of its population. But according to reliable sources, "five or six thousand remained." The town was not renamed and it isn't taken over by Jews.
This is a list of towns that are mostly or completely gone. Haifa is not part of the Nakba. Haifa shouldn't be on this list. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 04:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Listed or not, I think it is relevant to mention what happened to the urban centers as they were not untouched from what happened to the villages but a part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus. In fact, these cities had a population (and with that influence) that were enormous in comparision to many of the villages. So I think it is correct to mention them and have now added a part about that. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 08:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
What happened with contemporary term for forcible removal of population: ethnic cleansing ?!
I mean, "exodus", "depopulated", "left", are terms circulated around these articles on Palestinians and Palestine, with intent to whitewash narrative about these tragic events. Palestinians are ethnically cleansed from their homes, they didn't "left", and that has nothing to do with "depopulation" - their homes are seized by perpetrators, not "resettled" by third parties !?-- Santasa99 ( talk) 21:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, that's hardly "compromise", more likely blackmail. However, even if "compromise" is acceptable over cold, hard facts, particular term, as it is too often the case in these situations, is still outside of neutral zone of the "compromise" - depopulated is still term which gives "Israeli side" upper hand in its desirable whitewashing approach to narrative. That ("compromise") is the reason Wikipedia was never accepted as serious encyclopedia, serious anything.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 22:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
I use this page/list regularly and find it very helpful. Is there anyway of highlighting the villages that were cleared before 14th May? Break the lists in two? underline? I'm willing to do the work but not sure what would be sensible. Padres Hana ( talk) 17:43, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Does the overall English-language (and Arabic and Hebrew) historiography terms the sum of these events a product of Zionist terrorism, specifically? (Does it apply to all or most of the events mentioned?) This is the central question to which sources must be accompanied. I have no strong opinion of yet, but I believe that if the category is to be added, these sourcing conditions must be met, so I tentatively removed it until these can be provided. (One can only shutter to think what this will do to my "reputation!") El_C 04:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Many Jewish towns were depopulated by Arabs during this very same war, yet receive no mention. This "list" is absolutely and totally biased as it gives the reader the impression that the Arabs were 100% innocent victims of Jewish agression, when in fact the entire war was the result of the Arab assault on those lands granted to Jews in the UN Partition Plan which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected.
Yet each Israeli operation mentioned is referred to as an "offensive". These "offensives" were no more "offensives" than the Allied "offensive" in Normandy.
Bottom line: The war was started by the Arabs. The Arabs were the aggressors and the Jews were merely responding to that aggression.
"The best defense is a good offense" says it all. Your attackers hit you, you hit them back in DEFENSE.
None of these so-called "offensives" were carried out for the purpose of "depopulation".
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." - Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, May 14th, 1948.
This entire "List of Arab towns Depopulated" nonsense is but a mere effort to revise history in order to falsely portray Jews as brutal monsters attempting to ethnically cleanse a land of its native inhabitants, and as such it is repugnant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.23.10 ( talk) 17:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
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I suggest we rename this article to "List of Palestinian Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus." Huldra ( talk) 20:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I have made this table from the data in Abu Sitta. I have it in spreadsheet form so can easily make changes at this point. Will be more difficult once it is in the article. Comments would be appreciated. Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering if Arab Ghawarina is/was the same as Jisr az-Zarqa?? See village #145, on User:Huldra/Morris-list, (And the political/military leadership of the Yishuv had decided to empty it, it survived thanks to local Jewish pressure (they needed their work-force). (Story is told in Morris, 1994, " 1948 and after"), Huldra ( talk) 20:59, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Onceinawhile: Your edit of 01:18, 5 July 2020‎ resulted in a plethora of reference errors. Please fix them right away; otherwise I may be tempted to revert to the version just before that. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
p.s. This edit also plunged the article into category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. Fixing the reference errors should also fix this. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
What is the best approximation for the number of depopulated villages? This page says "around 400" other pages says "400 to 600" and Al-Jazeera's interactive map [6] says 530. ImTheIP ( talk) 11:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
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Please fix the following citation in the article's lead:
It should be:
The web page cited is published by the broadcasting company Al Jazeera. It is not written by a guy named Mr. Jazeera with the first name Al. Thanks, 61.239.39.90 ( talk) 06:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
is there a separate article for the jewish towns depopulated during the war or is the information just missing? RimonLV ( talk) 08:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
The table cites "Abu Sitta 2006, pp. 108–115" as the source, linking to Abu Sitta's two page essay "Map and Grab" in issue XXXV(2) of Journal of Palestine Studies. His two page essay doesn't contain the eight pages being cited (108–115); moreover, it doesn't contain any data that the table attributes to it. The two page essay is a review of a 2005 book named "A Survey of Palestine under the British Mandate, 1920–1948", which doesn't contain any data from the table either. Finally, pp. 108–115 in issue XXXV(2) of Journal of Palestine Studies are taken by the essays "Words and Stones: The Politics of Language and Identity in Israel and A War of Words" by William O. Beeman, "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism and Dying to Kill" by Lori Allen, "Palestinian Identity in Jordan and Israel: The Necessary “Other†in the Making of a Nation" by Betty Anderson, and "Palestinians Born in Exile: Diaspora and the Search for a Homeland" by Randa Farah. None of these four essays contains any data from the table.
I suggest deleting the reference to "Abu Sitta 2006, pp. 108–115" as misattributed. -- Crash48 ( talk) 11:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Arab Population (1948): 0stated for Birket Ramadan, as well as
Exodus Causesand
Destruction Refbeing blank (p. 111) -- all consistent with an uninhabited plot of agricultural land. -- Crash48 ( talk) 06:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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Delete Birket Ramadan from the table: it was not a town or a village but a swamp, as evident even from its name ( birka means "pond" or "pool"). It could not have been depopulated because it wasn't a settlement. -- Crash48 ( talk) 11:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Those were German Templer villages whose inhabitants were deported by the British in 1941 to Tatura, Australia. What do they have to do with the 1947–1949 Palestine war? -- Crash48 ( talk) 17:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
In September 1939, the British Mandate government turned the German farming settlements of Sarona, Wilhelma, Bethlehem-Galilee, and Waldheim into large internment camps, while women and children from the German colonies in Jerusalem, Jaffa, and Haifa were temporarily permitted to remain in their homes under British and Jewish police surveillance. The four farming settlements were surrounded by barbed wire and watchtowers, guarded by Jewish and Arab auxiliary police (Hilfspolizisten) under a British commandant with a small staff. German women, children, and elderly men lived in these camps... [In 1941] The British authorities decided to deport more than 600 persons from the younger German families to Australia... They were imprisoned as enemy citizens in detention camps at Tatura in Australia's Victoria state, where they remained until 1946–47... In April 1948, the Haganah raided the three internment camps of Waldheim, Bethlehem in the Galilee, and Wilhelma... On April 22, 1948, the evacuated Germans arrived in Cyprus... Six or seven internees, headed by Gottlob Loebert remained in Palestine to sell the Templers' stock and furniture, and see to the transport of the large luggage items of the deported internees. This group was ultimately taken to Cyprus as well. After seven to ten months of internment in Cyprus, the majority of them (Templers) were allowed to leave for Australia. Only a small number returned to Germany... Approximately fifty German settlers, mainly Templers and a few Sisters of the Kaiserswerth Order, requested not to take part in the evacuation, and were allowed to go to Jerusalem, where they moved into their former homes in the German Colony or into the German Hospice, where the Sisters of St. Charles Borromeo, under Mother Superior Emiliana, looked after them... From December 1948 to autumn 1950, the remaining Germans left Israel for good. The majority of them joined their families and relatives in Australia. Only a few returned to Germany.
@ Number 57: your new title is ambiguous:
The current title is entirely unambiguous, and much more concise.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:56, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
While the AE goes on, shall we try to have a constructive discussion here? Number 57 can you explain what exactly you disagree with in my comments above (you wrote "I disagree" but did not explain – presumably this relates to my statement that your title is ambiguous and doesn't match the content of the article?), and can you explain what you base your suggestion of non-NPOV on?
We have been working hard to try to find a good and stable article title for this page for some time. It was great to have achieved that stability with a name that fitted all five WP:CRITERIA (which no prior title did), until now. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Isn't this page a duplicate of List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict? Shouldn't both page be merged? Patrick.N.L ( talk) 09:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: ( non-admin closure) NOT MOVED User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
While there isn't consensus that the current title is good, there is consensus that it is an acceptable neutral status quo ante title, and there is consensus against each of the proposed moves. No prejudice against any immediate good-faith, follow-up, standard-format RM proposal. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war → ? – Procedural request given that everyone keeps saying "let's start an RM" but no one will actually do so. Please keep the opinions above in mind (which is why this is a subsection). Potential options, based on previous moves:
Primefac ( talk) 13:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
if no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article.
Marus was depopulated through operation Hiram not Yiftach. The source does not even have the term Yiftach. Patrick.N.L ( talk) 04:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Number 57: the problem created by your move war two months ago remains. We have a title which in inconsistent with the content, and there is no consensus to change either the title or the content. What do you propose? Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:41, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
How many locations are in the list? Synotia ( moan) 08:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
Al Nakba gets 2.3 million hits and has passed into the English language. It's also clearer in scope than the previous three titles of this list. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The link to Dansk (language) doesn't work. 79.177.122.32 ( talk) 14:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was oppose: Most people know that there was a mass refugee movement out of Palestine in 1948, but far fewer English-speakers outside the Muslim communities have much knowledge of Arabic words or know what a nakba is. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 22:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War → List of towns and villages depopulated during Al-Nakba — (or the Nakba/Al Nakba, whichever is most appropriate). SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The title of this list has changed several times in its lifetime. It was originally created to be a list of Palestinian villages depopulated in 1948 by the Israelis (by expulsion or creating an atmosphere of fear). It is an issue that is the subject of current scholarly research. Israeli editors then added the names of a few Jewish towns from which inhabitants fled. Then it was changed from during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War to 1948 Palestine War, and then changed to list of Arab towns, and then the 1967 war was added, and there have been other changes I don't recall. Now "Arab" has been removed again by LuvGoldStar ( talk · contribs). All the changes serve to obfuscate the basic issue.
I therefore propose that we call this "List of towns and villages depopulated during Al-Nakba". Al-Nakba is the name for the expulsions and flight, and the reasons behind them. It is what the Palestinian and other historians call it. It has passed into the English language. It gets over two million hits on Google. [1] It means the list is clearly about the Palestinian towns and villages that were emptied, not Jewish towns. It is the former that is the subject of ongoing scholarly research, and it is what this list is about. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the list it seems that it totally relies on two historians (Morris and Khalidi) --and mostly Morris-- to document them. Seems a bit weak on support. Does Israel acknowledge that it was responsible for the evacuation of each of these villages, or is there some dispute over this? Have the list and the accusations been checked for accuracy? Stellarkid ( talk) 01:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
You say above: "We need a list of villages destroyed during Al Nakba..." Some of these villages, or maybe many of them, were abandoned. This does not necessarily speak to "destruction," even if the villages were later repopulated with Israelis (assuming they were so). For example the difference might be such as that in Gaza, when instead of simply repopulating the Gaza greenhouses and synagogues and homes, many were actually destroyed. One needs to be careful with how we express such things. "Abandonment" is one thing, "destruction" quite another. Stellarkid ( talk) 03:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
The lede has problems in my view. There is presented a list of "towns and villages that were depopulated or destroyed" but there is no differentiation between them. How many, or what percentage in this list were "entirely depopulated and destroyed"? How many "entirely... destroyed"? How many "were left with a few hundred residents" and then presumably repopulated with Jews and renamed? ie only partially "depopulated." How many left voluntarily to avoid hostilities generated by both sides? It is well known that some did leave voluntarily and so acknowledged by both Morris and Khalidi, if memory serves. Further, the majority of towns listed do not have any obvious support(sources) given by either Morris or Khalidi. Is this an attempt to imply more than what is actually known about these towns? I would think these are fair questions for such an important subject, and the use of "some" in the lede in this context is highly prejudicial. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry that went up to soon. But I think I understand what is troubling me about the lede, finally. I am posting it here as it stands.
This is a list of Palestinian-Arab towns and villages that were depopulated or destroyed during the 1948 Palestine War, as a result of the flight of the Palestinian residents or their expulsion by the Israel Defense Forces. Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed. Towns and villages are arranged according to the subdistrict of the pre-1948 British Mandate of Palestine they were situated in.
Notice the passive voice. The Palestinian Arabs towns were acted upon . They were expelled, they were depopulated or were destroyed" Both terms are used in two of the three sentences of the lede. (Some) villages "were left" (more passive voice) with a "few hundred residents" (what was the original population?). The only bit that could be considered active voice is where it is said that the Palestinian residents "fled;" however, even this is presented as a reaction to something that was imposed upon them from outside, so basically still passive.
When referring to the Jews, however, the situation is reversed. It is all active voice. The Jews expelled, destroyed, repopulated. I believe quite a few of these Arab towns were left (some would argue "abandoned") prior to the establishment of Israel and the IDF, so I am not sure it is fair to refer to the Israel Defense Forces in this context. All in all, aside from the title there is nothing here that provides context. Are we to understand, or are we meant to understand, that no attacks against Jews were initiated from any of these villages? That there were no heavy weapons used on the Jewish Quarter in some of these towns? See Safed for example, a town that is on this list. Maybe it is true that each of these villages were indeed destroyed by the Jewish army of the time; but I think lumping of all these towns under such an umbrella requires (a lot) more evidence than is offered here. 95% of these villages don't offer so much as a footnote, so we must take it on faith. Stellarkid ( talk) 02:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I moved the article back to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War because this term is more neutral and more encompassing.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer moved this in July without discussion from "List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War" to the current title. [2]
I would like to move it back, but can't without using the tools, so I'm opening it up here for discussion, then we can ask an uninvolved admin to move it if there's consensus.
There are three reasons to move it back to 1948 Palestine War, an umbrella term historians use for the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that followed the creation of Israel.
1. Brewcrewer moved it without discussion, even though it's clearly somewhat contentious.
2. The list includes areas depopulated before the Arab-Israeli War began on May 15, 1948: see, for example, Deir Yassin massacre, which occurred in April 1948.
3. The associated template uses 1948 Palestine War: Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 21:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the use by historians of the term 1948 Palestine War, this discussion may be helpful. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree:
Disagree:
Comments:
The discussion pointed out by Slim Virgin above found here [3] has a list of WP notables who refer to the 1948 Palestine War. I thought it would be reasonable to add a list of those who refer to it as the 1948 or First Arab-Israeli War. Some authors mentioned may not have a WP page, but all are notable academics.
Then there are the many, many more who refer to the time as "Israel's War of Independence" such as John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt in "The Israel lobby and U.S. foreign policy" pg 82 Avi Shlaim, Netanel Lorch , Mitchell Geoffrey Bard, Joseph Heckelman, Martin Gilbert, Arthur Goldschmidt, Reuven Gal, Donna Rosenthal , Chiam Herzog, Tom Segev, Efraim Karsh, Jacob Abadi, Anthony Pagden, Birdsall S. Viault, Alan M. Dershowitz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stellarkid ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Stellrakid, the oldest of these publications is more recent than the most recent of yours. More, all the sensibilities are covered :
Did you read the book you provide ? They start to talk about event starting on 15 May. I hope, because Israel didn't exist before and the War started on November 30, 1947. 81.244.176.116 ( talk) 07:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The list of books and authors put up by 81.244.176.116 to evidence that these authors use the term "1948 Palestine war" as a blanket term to cover pre- & post-May 14 can be referenced and searched at Google books which I did, with interesting results.
I think the authors given as support for the general usage of "1948 Palestine War" are not at all unanimous or unambiguous. Karsh & Khalidi yes. Gelber, maybe, Tal, Morris, Jawad, Shlaim, no. Stellarkid ( talk) 03:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Please work on the first sentence. It's now an awkward runon sentence. -- Shuki ( talk) 21:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Why wouldn't it be appropriate to redirect move (?) this article to the
1948 Palestinian exodus instead of to the war articles?
Stellarkid (
talk)
18:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
01:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, a move (i.e. change of title) to "List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus" is a reasonable suggestion. What do others think about it? Zero talk 04:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It is clear that the article currently entitled 1948 Palestinian exodus is what this list should appropriately point to. It is the parent article. Stellarkid ( talk) 00:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Chesdovi, could you please present a source here that relate the villages being depopulated in the Palestine War with those depopulated of Jews during the Holocaust? nableezy - 15:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a list and not an article; therefore there is no need to harp on about the hypothetical case of it being a “perfect articleâ€. WP:ALSO also says: “Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. Links included in the "See also" section may be useful for readers seeking to read as much about a topic as possible, including subjects only peripherally related to the one in question.â€
These topics are not "peripherally related". I view both subjects inextricably linked. I do not need to provide a source. If you are so intent on there being one, find it yourself! Chesdovi ( talk) 17:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an consensus for the move to the title given in the lead. Could someone take care of this ? I can't. Thanks. 81.244.165.107 ( talk) 07:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
The page should not be moved from its original name until there's a consensus, something that was not clear prior to the previous move. We should get the opinion of those opposing the previous proposal before doing anything too exciting.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 05:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
As brewcrewer has yet to explain any actual objection to the name, and has made reverting his move impossible by making garbage edits to the new name, and the name has consensus above could an admin please move this page to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus?
The move is done, let's move on. Zero talk 14:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was consensus against move as inaccurate.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus → List of Arab towns and villages destroyed by Israel during the 1948 Palestinian exodus — This need to be rename to List of Arab towns and villages destroyed by Israel during the 1948 Palestinian exodus because it more factual. Depopulate be Pro-Israel POV in attempt to de emphasize the destruction. Other discussion on important article rename be here too [5] Ani medjool ( talk) 23:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I support name change to nakba. Ani medjool ( talk) 00:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
It would be a good idea if Wikipedia could verify to what extent Arab Christians were affected by the 1948 depopulation movement. Before 1948, Palestine was often described by Orientalists as having at least 20-25Â % of Christians at the beginning of the 20th century, but it was only after the Israeli victory (or "Nakba") that the Palestinian people acquired a predominantly Muslim status. It is therefore possible that the expropriation and emigration movements that took place between 1948 and 1967 had a more immediate effect on the local Christian commmunity, which had a long-established presence in key regions such as Galilee and East Jerusalem. ADM ( talk) 19:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
It might be useful to add that Arab Christians - who might have been more like 20-25% in the early 20th century - began leaving in the Ottoman period because of more persecution by authorities. Also, there are references by Walid Khalidi and others that state that religion was very vague to many Palestinian villagers in the early 20th century and before. Many times they celebrated both Christian holidays and Muslim ones unaware if they were Muslim or Christian (so the numbers might be a bit hard to determine). Achamy ( talk) 20:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
There are a number of places depopulated by Arabs that were relatively diverse mixed towns... Such as Romema. How do we reconcile this. Should we change the title to perhaps "Areas depopulated? Achamy ( talk) 21:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
When you add a comment like "massacre April 9th 1948" it introduce an controversial information without proper context.
I believe that this is a violation of WP:NPOV and should be removed. I agree that it justified to have a link to an article about the issue where the sucject is fully explained. Bbeehvh ( talk) 13:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I looked at almost all the names in this article and although i didn't count, i got the perception that there were more hamlets than villages. Should the title be changed to reflect this? 89.242.82.200 ( talk) 16:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a list of depopulated villages. There is no scientific definition of depopulated, but the lead says "Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed."
Haifa lost much of its population. But according to reliable sources, "five or six thousand remained." The town was not renamed and it isn't taken over by Jews.
This is a list of towns that are mostly or completely gone. Haifa is not part of the Nakba. Haifa shouldn't be on this list. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 04:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Listed or not, I think it is relevant to mention what happened to the urban centers as they were not untouched from what happened to the villages but a part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus. In fact, these cities had a population (and with that influence) that were enormous in comparision to many of the villages. So I think it is correct to mention them and have now added a part about that. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 08:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
What happened with contemporary term for forcible removal of population: ethnic cleansing ?!
I mean, "exodus", "depopulated", "left", are terms circulated around these articles on Palestinians and Palestine, with intent to whitewash narrative about these tragic events. Palestinians are ethnically cleansed from their homes, they didn't "left", and that has nothing to do with "depopulation" - their homes are seized by perpetrators, not "resettled" by third parties !?-- Santasa99 ( talk) 21:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, that's hardly "compromise", more likely blackmail. However, even if "compromise" is acceptable over cold, hard facts, particular term, as it is too often the case in these situations, is still outside of neutral zone of the "compromise" - depopulated is still term which gives "Israeli side" upper hand in its desirable whitewashing approach to narrative. That ("compromise") is the reason Wikipedia was never accepted as serious encyclopedia, serious anything.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 22:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
I use this page/list regularly and find it very helpful. Is there anyway of highlighting the villages that were cleared before 14th May? Break the lists in two? underline? I'm willing to do the work but not sure what would be sensible. Padres Hana ( talk) 17:43, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Does the overall English-language (and Arabic and Hebrew) historiography terms the sum of these events a product of Zionist terrorism, specifically? (Does it apply to all or most of the events mentioned?) This is the central question to which sources must be accompanied. I have no strong opinion of yet, but I believe that if the category is to be added, these sourcing conditions must be met, so I tentatively removed it until these can be provided. (One can only shutter to think what this will do to my "reputation!") El_C 04:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Many Jewish towns were depopulated by Arabs during this very same war, yet receive no mention. This "list" is absolutely and totally biased as it gives the reader the impression that the Arabs were 100% innocent victims of Jewish agression, when in fact the entire war was the result of the Arab assault on those lands granted to Jews in the UN Partition Plan which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected.
Yet each Israeli operation mentioned is referred to as an "offensive". These "offensives" were no more "offensives" than the Allied "offensive" in Normandy.
Bottom line: The war was started by the Arabs. The Arabs were the aggressors and the Jews were merely responding to that aggression.
"The best defense is a good offense" says it all. Your attackers hit you, you hit them back in DEFENSE.
None of these so-called "offensives" were carried out for the purpose of "depopulation".
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." - Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, May 14th, 1948.
This entire "List of Arab towns Depopulated" nonsense is but a mere effort to revise history in order to falsely portray Jews as brutal monsters attempting to ethnically cleanse a land of its native inhabitants, and as such it is repugnant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.23.10 ( talk) 17:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
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I suggest we rename this article to "List of Palestinian Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus." Huldra ( talk) 20:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I have made this table from the data in Abu Sitta. I have it in spreadsheet form so can easily make changes at this point. Will be more difficult once it is in the article. Comments would be appreciated. Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering if Arab Ghawarina is/was the same as Jisr az-Zarqa?? See village #145, on User:Huldra/Morris-list, (And the political/military leadership of the Yishuv had decided to empty it, it survived thanks to local Jewish pressure (they needed their work-force). (Story is told in Morris, 1994, " 1948 and after"), Huldra ( talk) 20:59, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Onceinawhile: Your edit of 01:18, 5 July 2020‎ resulted in a plethora of reference errors. Please fix them right away; otherwise I may be tempted to revert to the version just before that. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
p.s. This edit also plunged the article into category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. Fixing the reference errors should also fix this. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
What is the best approximation for the number of depopulated villages? This page says "around 400" other pages says "400 to 600" and Al-Jazeera's interactive map [6] says 530. ImTheIP ( talk) 11:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
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Please fix the following citation in the article's lead:
It should be:
The web page cited is published by the broadcasting company Al Jazeera. It is not written by a guy named Mr. Jazeera with the first name Al. Thanks, 61.239.39.90 ( talk) 06:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
is there a separate article for the jewish towns depopulated during the war or is the information just missing? RimonLV ( talk) 08:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
The table cites "Abu Sitta 2006, pp. 108–115" as the source, linking to Abu Sitta's two page essay "Map and Grab" in issue XXXV(2) of Journal of Palestine Studies. His two page essay doesn't contain the eight pages being cited (108–115); moreover, it doesn't contain any data that the table attributes to it. The two page essay is a review of a 2005 book named "A Survey of Palestine under the British Mandate, 1920–1948", which doesn't contain any data from the table either. Finally, pp. 108–115 in issue XXXV(2) of Journal of Palestine Studies are taken by the essays "Words and Stones: The Politics of Language and Identity in Israel and A War of Words" by William O. Beeman, "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism and Dying to Kill" by Lori Allen, "Palestinian Identity in Jordan and Israel: The Necessary “Other†in the Making of a Nation" by Betty Anderson, and "Palestinians Born in Exile: Diaspora and the Search for a Homeland" by Randa Farah. None of these four essays contains any data from the table.
I suggest deleting the reference to "Abu Sitta 2006, pp. 108–115" as misattributed. -- Crash48 ( talk) 11:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Arab Population (1948): 0stated for Birket Ramadan, as well as
Exodus Causesand
Destruction Refbeing blank (p. 111) -- all consistent with an uninhabited plot of agricultural land. -- Crash48 ( talk) 06:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Delete Birket Ramadan from the table: it was not a town or a village but a swamp, as evident even from its name ( birka means "pond" or "pool"). It could not have been depopulated because it wasn't a settlement. -- Crash48 ( talk) 11:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Those were German Templer villages whose inhabitants were deported by the British in 1941 to Tatura, Australia. What do they have to do with the 1947–1949 Palestine war? -- Crash48 ( talk) 17:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
In September 1939, the British Mandate government turned the German farming settlements of Sarona, Wilhelma, Bethlehem-Galilee, and Waldheim into large internment camps, while women and children from the German colonies in Jerusalem, Jaffa, and Haifa were temporarily permitted to remain in their homes under British and Jewish police surveillance. The four farming settlements were surrounded by barbed wire and watchtowers, guarded by Jewish and Arab auxiliary police (Hilfspolizisten) under a British commandant with a small staff. German women, children, and elderly men lived in these camps... [In 1941] The British authorities decided to deport more than 600 persons from the younger German families to Australia... They were imprisoned as enemy citizens in detention camps at Tatura in Australia's Victoria state, where they remained until 1946–47... In April 1948, the Haganah raided the three internment camps of Waldheim, Bethlehem in the Galilee, and Wilhelma... On April 22, 1948, the evacuated Germans arrived in Cyprus... Six or seven internees, headed by Gottlob Loebert remained in Palestine to sell the Templers' stock and furniture, and see to the transport of the large luggage items of the deported internees. This group was ultimately taken to Cyprus as well. After seven to ten months of internment in Cyprus, the majority of them (Templers) were allowed to leave for Australia. Only a small number returned to Germany... Approximately fifty German settlers, mainly Templers and a few Sisters of the Kaiserswerth Order, requested not to take part in the evacuation, and were allowed to go to Jerusalem, where they moved into their former homes in the German Colony or into the German Hospice, where the Sisters of St. Charles Borromeo, under Mother Superior Emiliana, looked after them... From December 1948 to autumn 1950, the remaining Germans left Israel for good. The majority of them joined their families and relatives in Australia. Only a few returned to Germany.
@ Number 57: your new title is ambiguous:
The current title is entirely unambiguous, and much more concise.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:56, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
While the AE goes on, shall we try to have a constructive discussion here? Number 57 can you explain what exactly you disagree with in my comments above (you wrote "I disagree" but did not explain – presumably this relates to my statement that your title is ambiguous and doesn't match the content of the article?), and can you explain what you base your suggestion of non-NPOV on?
We have been working hard to try to find a good and stable article title for this page for some time. It was great to have achieved that stability with a name that fitted all five WP:CRITERIA (which no prior title did), until now. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Isn't this page a duplicate of List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict? Shouldn't both page be merged? Patrick.N.L ( talk) 09:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: ( non-admin closure) NOT MOVED User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
While there isn't consensus that the current title is good, there is consensus that it is an acceptable neutral status quo ante title, and there is consensus against each of the proposed moves. No prejudice against any immediate good-faith, follow-up, standard-format RM proposal. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war → ? – Procedural request given that everyone keeps saying "let's start an RM" but no one will actually do so. Please keep the opinions above in mind (which is why this is a subsection). Potential options, based on previous moves:
Primefac ( talk) 13:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
if no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article.
Marus was depopulated through operation Hiram not Yiftach. The source does not even have the term Yiftach. Patrick.N.L ( talk) 04:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Number 57: the problem created by your move war two months ago remains. We have a title which in inconsistent with the content, and there is no consensus to change either the title or the content. What do you propose? Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:41, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
How many locations are in the list? Synotia ( moan) 08:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)