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Sharif Uddin As you can see from the quotes I just added, the text reflects the cited RSs. If there are other RSs which state that these quotes don't come from hadith, we need to reflect both these contrasting viewpoints, per WP:NPOV. However, I don't see where the article you linked to refers to that particular saying. If I'm missing something, please quote the relevant passage. Also, I don't see where Rowson identifies henna and perfumed hair with the mukhannathun of early Medina, and if he doesn't, this is also WP:OR. Eperoton ( talk) 00:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Sodomy is the correct term for anal sex. What is the problem? Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
It is incorrect as describing Albania and Kosovo as muslim states with anti-discriminatory laws. They are secular states, and religion does not play any kind of role in regulating the laws of the state. Please do not use the names of this state to further some muslim agenda, which try to incorrectly describe islam as tolerating. It is not, and wherever there is the Islam law, there are no LGBT allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.155.234 ( talk) 11:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Russianvodka: Please discuss your wish to remove content, and gather a consensus, before actually editing out content. You must prove why something should be removed, and your peers have to accept that resolution, before you actually remove content that is not obvious vandalism. Also being the tender and controversial subject that LGBT rights are, you cannot just remove information before it's been discussed. DeniedClub ❯❯❯ talk? 01:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
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I am at a loss to understand why this page has a large section devoted to a master of arts thesis by an otherwise not notable Rusmir Musić, when no third-party sources establish the notability of the thesis and when the only citations are to the thesis itself. There are tens of thousands of MA theses written in universities each year, but few end up being considered notable. Without third-party sources, one cannot consider this one notable. Best regards, George Custer's Sabre ( talk) 08:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
It's not right to say the "punishment for homosexual acts" is death. This is the punishment for male anal intercourse, witnessed by four people, listed in the hadith. Because no one is going to witness literal penetration, many scholars (including the Ottoman scholars) do not take this literally. 128.135.96.214 ( talk) 21:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
This difference needs to be enumerated. There is no punishment for lesbianism under Islamic law. Conversely, the "orthodox" punishment for m-m anal intercourse is death. (Though it has almost never been implemented since it is impossible to satisfy the four-witnesses requirement.) 128.135.96.214 ( talk) 21:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of issues with this article, which I am not in a position to address at the moment, but would like to raise another one: the section on "Modern laws in the Islamic world" has a great deal of overlap with various other articles on LGBT rights by country or territory, Religious views on same-sex marriage and indivdual entries on individual countries. IMO, individual countries need not be named here, and if the information held in this article is pertinent and relevant to that country and is not currently included under its individual entry it could be added there. I would like to see this section pared back to a minimum to avoid needless repetition and risk of out-of-date information remaining here when it has been updated in the main articles on the topic. Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 07:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
In the third paragraph, it states "There are also several Muslim organizations that support LGBT rights and LGBT Muslims." kindly mention the aforementioned Muslim organization for transparency and neutrality. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicop33 ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
I want to add Hidayah to the list of active groups as I recently attended a conference which was organised by them and felt that their presence was lacking on this website. I am currently working on research around LGBT+ Muslim activist groups and they are very active in the UK along with the other groups listed on this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamieMansoor ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Eperoton: I took this feedback on board and added this Metro article which describes one of the workshops Hidayah organised
https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/25/im-muslim-and-lgbt-and-i-teach-children-its-ok-to-be-both-8713922/
You can also see this newspaper article for further information
It just keeps getting deleted. I also tried to move the active groups above the defunct groups because that seemed to make more sense to me. However, this is no longer something I'm willing to challenge as it's not that important.
I included some further background on where beliefs stem from in the Islamic faith. Both the Qur'an and Hadith, are used to cite discrimination toward the community. However, as times have changed and society is constantly pushing to gain more equality for everyone, people in the Islamic community continue to challenge the discrimination. The Islamic Society of North America, in 2013, established their approval of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, ensuring that people are not discrimination based on their sexual orientation. Additionally, there have been the rise of Unity Mosques, which are inclusive of the LGBTQ community across the United States and in Canada. Laurapollack ( talk) 02:16, 31 October 2019 (UTC) Laura Pollack
While reading through and editing this page, I noticed that there is a lack of recent events from news outlets. I have added some myself but believe there is still a need for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NoahScafati ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I added a relevant fact about Egypt's criminalization of homosexuality: "An Egyptian tv host was recently sentenced to a year in prison for interviewing a gay man in January 2019. [121]" This addition shows the overall negative social attitudes towards homosexuality and the extremes that the Government take it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonkuflik ( talk • contribs) 20:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Wiki-editors, I re-added the summary chart at the bottom of the page. I was working on this page as a assigned project for my class. I notice someone is keep removing it. I have a request that this is not a medical topic and I tried to added as many as countries possible on the table after doing the enough research. To me this chart was very useful for the information as you can see more than one country at one chart instead of going back and forth for the information. I put it up there to benefit my other readers as well. Requesting again, please let it be there, I appreciate your understanding in advance. Thank you! Shahzia Perveen ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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Images
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I am seeking attention about these two photos, I think the writings are enough to understand the matter, and the depiction is not further needed to add here because it does not enhance the encyclopedic quality, and if that according to WP:GRATUITOUS, images which can be offensive or vulgar to any viewer are not allowed to be added in wikipedia. Or if dont, the photos should be kept as collapsible at least. Besides the article is about Islam, mostly muslims will come to read the article and the fundamental rules of muslims is to protect their gaze, it is more important in Islam than depicting Muhammad (modestly), and the article should at least make the photos as collapsed so that wikipedia does not seem to force viewer to see the photos, by giving them option. 43.245.120.33 ( talk) 02:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
No collapsing in the article per DMacks. That's not done in any article. Crossroads -talk- 01:49, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Sara hegazy was not a Muslim but an Atheist Nlivataye ( talk) 14:56, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
She was also a communist; an important indication and though not claiming all communists must be atheists there is a correlation there Nlivataye ( talk) 17:31, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
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The section which i would like to be removed from this page is the below one
"Some Muslim academics disagree with this interpretation, arguing that the "people of Lut" were destroyed not because of participation in same-sex acts, but because of misdeeds which included refusing to worship one God, disregarding the authority of the Prophets and messengers, and attempting to rape the travelers, a crime made even worse by the fact that the travelers were under Lut's protection and hospitality"
This text was given under the table tile "in Quran" which means anything given in this section should be present in Quran and not of personal opinion of someone. For example if some article states Abraham Lincoln was not the president of United States , i think wiki will reject it even if it is from an famous author. Similarly "in Quran" section should contain passages of only the verses from Quran. There is no mention of idol worship in Quranic verses when prophet Lot is talking to his people. Please look at the verses of Lot in Quran https://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%28lot%29&chapter=&translator=5&search=1&search_word=all&start=0&records_display=10&phonetic= 124.40.246.231 ( talk) 14:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Junaid1068, digressions aside, Wikipedia policy is very clear about this. The edit you’re suggesting would violate WP:RNPOV, a foundational aspect of Wikipedia. What you’re proposing is that we include a theological view specific to Muslims as unvarnished truth, and that’s simply not going to happen. We reflect what mainstream scholarly sources say. And that some Muslims might get “wrong information” is immaterial. We do report what the majority theological view amongst Muslims is. So, it’s very much already there. But we can’t say it’s the truth, because it’s contradicted by archaeological and textual evidence. It’s not our job to practice Muslim apologetics, or discourage what you see as heretical opinions. Symmachus Auxiliarus ( talk) 18:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
The comment "Islam is the truth, despite to even if you do not want to admit it," is a prime example of what is delaying your unblock. It is very easy for me to read that and interpret your statement as you saying that your belief in Islam will cause you to edit with a pro-Islam perspective and rejecting neutral, factual sources for religious ones.
No religion holds a monopoly on truth: not Islam, not Christianity, not Judaism, not Hinduism, not Buddhism, not the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It may feel like Wikipedia's version of truth is an atheistic truth. If so, it's because atheists don't look at religious perspectives for guidance but focus on objective, observable facts. Wikipedia's WP:Neutral point of view and WP:Reliable sources policies work on those lines: events should be written about in articles based on reliable sources, and preferably independent ones. The encyclopedia does not yield to religious doctrine or polity.
One personal note: yes, I'm a member of an organized religion. The teachings—or truths, if you prefer—of my church are the lens by which I look at my own behaviour. Other than being mindful of how I treat my fellow editors, it does not influence my editing. Even in articles related to my religion, what is "truth" is dictated by what is shown in the historical record and independent sources. — C.Fred ( talk) 16:03, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Hi
GenoV84, how is The two world maps of the percentage of Muslims per country and the countries that support LGBT rights at the UN give an impression of the attitude towards homosexuality on the part of many Muslim-majority governments.
sourced? Do you feel like it is a case of eyeball estimation?
Neither source mentions muslims/islam, so how is the inclusion of the information not OR by suggesting an (unsourced) link between muslim-majority countries and attitudes towards homosexuality? See Wikipedia:No_original_research#cite_note-7. The inclusion of the maps should be conditional on the inclusion of (existing) research on muslim-majority countries and homosexuality.
And what does Raja Gemini have to do with the topic? Best, 15 ( talk) 13:24, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
this project is serious enough to me, you should get familiar with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, including Behavioral guidelines and Content guidelines, in order to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner. GenoV84 ( talk) 00:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
GenoV84 ( talk) 00:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)The work of hundreds of activists and experts for the protection and promotion of LGBT rights around the globe leaves no doubt that the repression of homosexuality and queerness is a global phenomenon. Indeed, as highlighted in the HRC 17/19 Resolution, as well as in the High Commissioner’s Report and in several other UN Committees’ reports, violations of human ri ghts are frequently visited upon LGBT communities, even in the most liberal and democratic states. 6 It is particularly alarming that in 2011, seventy-six states had criminal laws and penal sanctions attached, as a consequence of sexual orientation, to sexual behavior or gender identity.7 This number increased to seventy-eight in 2012. A first reading of these statistics suggests that both homophobia and the criminalization of homosexuality are phenomena of global reach. In fact, it is only half of these seventy-eight states that are Muslim-majority or Sharia-compliant states. 8 Yet it seems that there is a certain “privileged” connection between Islam and the repression of homosexuality. All five states that currently punish same-sex relations by the death penalty are Sharia-compliant: Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, and Sudan.9 The death penalty is also applied in the northern region of Nigeria, which has predominantly Muslim populations, and the southern parts of Somalia. 10 The most brutal punishments, including lashes and public stoning, as well as arbitrary executions, also occur in Muslim-majority states (namely, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Qatar, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Malaysia). 11 Some of the Islamic states that impose life imprisonment do so on the basis of the Sharia injunctions (for example, Maldives). 12 Even the most “tolerant” states still punish the offense of “unnatural intercourse” (Bangladesh). 13 Furthermore, the Muslim-majority states that criminalize same sex relationships have also proved to have the highest levels of homophobia and intolerance towards sexual diversity. 14 [2]
Neither is about editors' POV, OR and Synth. I am not interested in lectures - you know how to use quote template, so find a quote from serious piece of scholarship where the phrase is used, with a title and page number.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 00:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Not to mention it's not grammatically correct to say "Islamic death penalty" (that's why you won't find it in serious scholarship) - unless you want to introduce to encyclopedia that there is something intrinsically Islamic in killing a person ?-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 00:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
wikilinks aren't verbatim quotes, and every user knows that. If you are not interested in checking out the cited sources, don't care about dispute resolution, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of these informations supported by multiple academic references cited throughout the entire article, then I'm afraid that Wikipedia is not the place for you, because you seem to be here only to propagate your personal point of view by censoring and disrupting sourced content supported by the aforementioned numerous reliable and academic references. I've wasted my time. GenoV84 ( talk) 01:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Manticore:, @ VenusFeuerFalle:, GenoV84, please, do not pretend that you are doing something innocuous by inventing explicit and controversial phrase, which doesn't exists nor can be found in reliable sources, and using it for pipe in a wikilink so that you can apply Easteregg guideline. Find the way to amend the problem properly.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 02:35, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
decorum preservation.... Are you serious? Explain what is your definition of decorum preservation, because you have demonstrated to be unable to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner, yet you also pretend to have the high ground to judge other users' conduct while claiming to have discussed with them respectfully because of decorum preservation, which can't be found anywhere in the article's Talk page, since you have repeatedly attempted to censor and disrupt sourced, encyclopedic content supported by multiple academic and reliable references in the article through many, unnecessarily querulous edit summaries with a presumptuous attitude both towards me and other users (@ VenusFeuerFalle: and @ Manticore:), despite the fact that in my first reply I suggested you to
try to calm down and check out the cited sources by yourself instead of lashing out on other users aggressively, because there's absolutely no need to behave that way during a dispute resolution, especially considering the fact that this entire discussion and edit war that you started is about something so innocuous as a wikilink.
get familiar with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, including Behavioral guidelines and Content guidelines, in order to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner, and to check out the cited sources before accusing other users of ill intent both through your many, unnecessarily querulous edit summaries and messages on the article's Talk page, which is a blatant violation of WP:AGF. You did neither of those things, apparently.
I am really struggling to understand what you are writing - I am sorry but, really, I am having a hard time to catch your drift. My English is barely usable, but, boy, to my abilities yours is even worse. But, that being said, I think that my intentions were more than clear, and series of explaining, which I provided in my posts here from the beginning, should suffice for even the weakest user of English, or the finest connoisseur of literary English, if we are to consider both extremes.
But I am curious still, so please, do tell - what is "Islamic death penalty"? How that thing differs from any other "death penalty", is there a "Western death penalty" or "American death penalty or "Vatican death penalty" or "Atheist death penalty"?) and can be found in the very first paragraph of the article's lead section, by stating the same phrase over and over again:
I am not interested in lecturing.
Begging for evidence when the evidence has already been provided with reliable sources and quotes, then dismissing the provided evidence by stating the same phrase over and over again (I am not interested in lecturing
) with no counterarguments and without refraining from making
personal attacks and
offensive remarks about other users, is starting to feel like
WP:ICANTHEARYOU. I called Santasa99 out on that as inappropriate behaviour twice; instead of refraining from his/her reiterated
tendentiousness,
personal attacks, and
disruption to illustrate his/her point, he/she refuses to take accountability for his/her inappropriate conduct by pointing the finger at other editors repeatedly. Meanwhile, user Santasa99 has continued to denigrate the user
VenusFeuerFalle on the
article's Talk page for being a non-native speaker of English, regardless of
good manners and civility: as an additional reason, you are the last editor I would be willing to take her/his word on grammar issues, after this exchange!
(the text is highlighted in bold in the original comment on the
article's Talk page, not my addition). Moreover, there's obviously
no consensus to change the aforementioned wikilink against all the cited references by suggesting that they don't contain the verbatim designation that Santasa99 seems to be so upset about, as three editors have already expressed their disagreement with Santasa99 and objected to his/her changes based on policy
WP:EASTEREGG. It's depressing that this editor is choosing to edit-war in order to promote his/her own
point of view, without providing any verifiable sources that support their opinion, resorting to insult and attack other users instead of
collaborating with them respectfully.
GenoV84 (
talk)
20:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Ok, here's what I intend to do, based on our core content policies and guidelines: I intend to remove any usage of the phrase "Islamic death penalty" [...] I intend to do this removal by rephrasing two sentences/statements which expressing exactly the same information, using exactly the same wiki-links, and exactly the same references, and are both inserted in the WP:LEDE, only few lines apart. By amending this repetitiveness, I intend to remove usage of constructed controversial phrase "Islamic death penalty";
I am not intending anything differently from what I tried earlier - if anything, this intention is much more substantial in comparison with my earlier edit, which was reduced to removing only one word.
How do you expect to collaborate with other users without providing any evidence that could validate your viewpoint, especially if you're not even willing to compromise with them when different solutions and proposals have already been made? GenoV84 ( talk) 00:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Some hadith collections condemn homosexual and transgender acts,[5][7][12][16] making them forbidden in traditional Islamic jurisprudence and liable to different punishments, including stoning and the death penalty for both partners, the active and receptive, who have engaged in male homosexual intercourse,[1][2][6] depending on the circumstances, country and the legal school.
Result: User:Santasa99 is warned for breaking 3RR at LGBT in Islam on 12 February. They may be blocked if they revert the article again without getting a prior consensus in their favor on the talk page. Santasa99 is convinced that the phrase 'Islamic death penalty' should not be used in Wikipedia, and has made a detailed proposal at Talk:LGBT in Islam#Amending deficiencies in LEDE for removing it from articles. If they embark on this plan without prior consensus there will be consequences. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:26, 16 February 2022 (UTC)GenoV84 ( talk) 11:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
I've been polite and respectful during the entire dispute resolution; sadly, it couldn't be said the same for you. Accusing me of being impolite and of trying to derail the discussion while you have repeatedly insulted me and other editors, and simultaneously reporting me at WP:ANI hoping that I will get blocked, is definitely another violation of WP:AGF and WP:ASPERSIONS on your part, and clearly not even a smart move, especially after the warning directed to you on WP:AN3. GenoV84 ( talk) 11:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
At present, homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries, including 38 within the Commonwealth. At least five countries - the Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania and Sudan - have used the death penalty against gay people.
Facts as drug trafficking, homosexual behaviour, and apostasy are liable to capital punishment.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aalle176 ( article contribs).
Putting this stuff here makes as much sense as putting
Rape,
sexual slavery and
child molestation at
Heterosexuality. -
Daveout
(talk)
12:34, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
These phrases seem to push POV. Evidently the governments of the countries in question do not believe the cards are "wrong". Equinox ◑ 14:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
The article cites Scott as some sort of authority that is qualified to argue for a different interpretation of the story of the people of Prophet Lot, Prayers of God be upon him.
There is a huge difference between a "research scholar" and Muslim Scholar. Not anyone who claims to be a scholar is automatically granted or accepted as such. There are strict qualifications, including but not limited to peer acceptance and testimony by other established Muslim scholars. Scott is no such person, not even close.
He has absolutely no qualifications, nor do his opinions carry any weight in this matter. We have strict unanimous consensus among scholars of Islam since the beginning of Islam that homosexual acts are prohibited, and that the story of the people of Prophet Lot, Peace be upon him, clearly indicates this. Not just in the Quran, but the many authentic Hadiths as well. To attempt to deny and "reinterpret" those Ayat and Hadiths is bending and denying logic and authenticity, not to mention clear language and consensus.
Scott is not a Muslim scholar ('alim or Faqeeh). A Faqeeh is someone who has deep and intricate knowledge of Islamic Fiqh (Jurisprudence), and has qualifications to deduce rulings or issue fatwas on certain topics.
It is very well established among even beginner students of Islamic knowledge that we have something called in Islam (known in the religion by necessity - معلوم من الدين بالضرورة). These are axiomatic givens that have no room for interpretation, such as the prohibition of intoxicating drinks, the prohibition of pork, the requirement of Salah, Fasting, and Hajj for Muslims, prohibition of fornication and adultery, and so on. Homosexual acts fall under this category, and hence no Muslim scholar would ever argue or attempt to come up with a different "interpretation" for its prohibition. Insisting to do so after explaining the truth and crystal clear evidence of the matter, and that it is not open for interpretation may very well render that person outside the folds of Islam if he has any semblance of mental sanity.
My strong recommendation is to remove Scott's reference from the article.
24.127.250.116 (
talk)
20:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
but modern Western historians have concluded that the Islamic prophet Muhammad never forbade homosexual relationships outright
IS WRONG! That is simply and utterly false. There is a hadith by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Ibn 'Abbas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1456; Abu Dawud, 4462; Ibn Majah, 2561. This hadith was classed as sahih by Shaykh al-Albani in Sahih al-Jami’, no. 6589)
It is clearly forbidden. Please change this information if you truly want to publish only facts. 39.36.173.70 ( talk) 13:15, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Every single citation in this page is a non authority on Islam but simply personal opinions. Islam forbad homosexuality because Allah simply forbad it and it is very clearly stated in the Quran and Hadith. Obviously the people responsible for this misinformation don’t care about the truth but only their personal agenda. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that the Prophet Mohammad did not forbid the action of homosexuality. First it is Allah that forbids not Prophet Mohammad . He is a messenger of Allah, he obeys Allah’s commands which clearly says in the Quran that sodomy is a a sin that deserved Allah’s punishment of the people of Sodom! 65.95.226.52 ( talk) 00:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
We have a section dedicated to the history of homosexuality. LGBT is also about trans people who are not necessarily gay (even if we consider people by their gender assigend at birth). I feel like there is some undue weight. Maybe we can add a transgender history section, if sufficient material is available, or trim the homosexuality section? Especially since other sections also treat the issue of homosexuality and anal intercourse in much detail. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm not even sure where to begin with this trainwreck of an article, carefully written to prioritize modern, progressive analyses of sexuality in Islam that very few Muslims or Muslim authorities actually accept. The main device it uses is looking at things with a purely sociological lense in which the actions of certain Muslims throughout history are divorced from what Islamic law actually says.
The introduction implies that Muslims accepted the LGBT throughout history until the West enforced prejudice on Muslim-majority countries in the 19th century. Yet the article itself goes into detail about how literally all the normal positions of Islamic law forbid gender fluidity and homosexuality to such an extent that all schools unanimously uphold capital punishment for sodomy based on the Hadith. How can this be reconciled with the ludicrous claim that the Prophet "never forbade homosexual relationships outright?" The prevalence of homosexuality in pre-modern Islamic polities, most of which was in the form of pederasty, doesn't mean that Islam inherently condoned it. Pederasty is NOT synonymous with the LGBT as we understand it today, that is an anachronistic interpretation and certainly not something that most people today would support. Plenty of claims in this article are not sourced at all, such as how normal medieval Muslims "usually apprehended the idea (homosexuality) with indifference, if not admiration."
If there are viewpoints of Islam's relationship with the LGBT that are minority positions, then you have to acknowledge that they are considered fringe, unpopular and irrelevant in Islamic legal circles. Instead, this article priorities these arguments while obscuring the Islamic stance. Numerous paragraphs are devoted to progressive interpretations of Islamic texts from academics who are not even proper Islamic authorities such as Scott Kugle, yet erudite refutations of their work from Muslim scholars are only passingly mentioned in single lines. This is an encyclopedia of established information, yes? Then why are random American academics who support the LGBT given multiple subsections discussing their work while the traditional Islamic positions are framed as "Wahhabist," informed by 19th century "Christian law," etc? The editors dance around these issues by claiming that they only accept rigorous academic citations and that primary Islamic texts are not "reliable sources for Islam." That's a very amusing response. It's obvious to anyone who reads this article that mostly one particular kind of historical study is referenced, and those are secular studies that support the LGBT movement and claim that Muslims tolerated it until the big bad colonizers showed up in the 19th century.
If you want to be honest about how Islam views the LGBT then perhaps focus on citing actual Muslims instead of white academics from Western countries and removing claims with no citations. You can't dance around the Islamic basis for why modern Muslims generally oppose the LGBT by citing books talking about how pederasty was common in the Middle Ages or ignoring that modern Muslims cite their reservations about LGBT behaviors from their holy texts, not 19th century Christian influence from colonial law. This is not a professional, balanced article in the slightest. HVAC84 ( talk) 08:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Maybe by sticking with the talkpage guidlines. When the issues are explained in an factual matter, other Users can follow the objection. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 09:58, 28 January 2024 (UTC)"I'm not even sure where to begin with this trainwreck of an article"
I would love to engage to counter such delusional non-sense, since there are strong assusations and hatred towards, not only academics, but also people of color who stick with an objective meassurement instead of blindly following ideologies. However, WP:FORUM permitts it. Instead, I would suggest to remove any further incivilized expression of thought and providing misinformation, instead of engaging with it. If this person wants to rant about its own views being in odds with facts, they are free to find social media spaces in which they are free to live out whatever they want to believe in without any regards for reality and facts. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 10:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)That's a very amusing response. It's obvious to anyone who reads this article that mostly one particular kind of historical study is referenced, and those are secular studies that support the LGBT movement and claim that Muslims tolerated it until the big bad colonizers showed up in the 19th century. If you want to be honest about how Islam views the LGBT then perhaps focus on citing actual Muslims instead of white academics from Western countries and removing claims with no citations.
I think this is now the third article about this subject. We have Zina which is discussing legal matters on sexuality, we have this article, and we have Sexuality in Islam and often, they discuss the very same things. My suggestion is: Would it help to focus in this article on modern to post-modern only? LGBT(QIA) is a movement of the second half of the 20th century. Projecting such issues into pre-Modern times is anachronistic. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
This
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Requesting to add this part in modern interpretation section: Zakir Naik claimed in a public lecture's question-answer that, the cause of homosexuality is not genetic [1], because research of gay gene ( Xq28) was later proved as false and the man ( Dean Hamer) who claimed to discover it, later himself identified as a homosexual, thus he falsely claimed the discovery of this gene as genetic [2] [3]; The actual cause of it is satisfying sexual desire outside the law of Allah, which is lawful marriage in Islam; when someone meets sexual desire outside marriage such as premarital and extramarital sex, gradually he or she gets bored and doesn't get pleasure, then he or she tends to find new experience and tries new ways to have pleasure, by this way, at a level of this line up, people tends to homosexual activities, which has happened in present western world; thus, it is not genetic, rather than a psychological choice. [4] [5] 202.134.13.134 ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
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Sharif Uddin As you can see from the quotes I just added, the text reflects the cited RSs. If there are other RSs which state that these quotes don't come from hadith, we need to reflect both these contrasting viewpoints, per WP:NPOV. However, I don't see where the article you linked to refers to that particular saying. If I'm missing something, please quote the relevant passage. Also, I don't see where Rowson identifies henna and perfumed hair with the mukhannathun of early Medina, and if he doesn't, this is also WP:OR. Eperoton ( talk) 00:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Sodomy is the correct term for anal sex. What is the problem? Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
It is incorrect as describing Albania and Kosovo as muslim states with anti-discriminatory laws. They are secular states, and religion does not play any kind of role in regulating the laws of the state. Please do not use the names of this state to further some muslim agenda, which try to incorrectly describe islam as tolerating. It is not, and wherever there is the Islam law, there are no LGBT allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.155.234 ( talk) 11:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Russianvodka: Please discuss your wish to remove content, and gather a consensus, before actually editing out content. You must prove why something should be removed, and your peers have to accept that resolution, before you actually remove content that is not obvious vandalism. Also being the tender and controversial subject that LGBT rights are, you cannot just remove information before it's been discussed. DeniedClub ❯❯❯ talk? 01:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
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I am at a loss to understand why this page has a large section devoted to a master of arts thesis by an otherwise not notable Rusmir Musić, when no third-party sources establish the notability of the thesis and when the only citations are to the thesis itself. There are tens of thousands of MA theses written in universities each year, but few end up being considered notable. Without third-party sources, one cannot consider this one notable. Best regards, George Custer's Sabre ( talk) 08:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
It's not right to say the "punishment for homosexual acts" is death. This is the punishment for male anal intercourse, witnessed by four people, listed in the hadith. Because no one is going to witness literal penetration, many scholars (including the Ottoman scholars) do not take this literally. 128.135.96.214 ( talk) 21:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
This difference needs to be enumerated. There is no punishment for lesbianism under Islamic law. Conversely, the "orthodox" punishment for m-m anal intercourse is death. (Though it has almost never been implemented since it is impossible to satisfy the four-witnesses requirement.) 128.135.96.214 ( talk) 21:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of issues with this article, which I am not in a position to address at the moment, but would like to raise another one: the section on "Modern laws in the Islamic world" has a great deal of overlap with various other articles on LGBT rights by country or territory, Religious views on same-sex marriage and indivdual entries on individual countries. IMO, individual countries need not be named here, and if the information held in this article is pertinent and relevant to that country and is not currently included under its individual entry it could be added there. I would like to see this section pared back to a minimum to avoid needless repetition and risk of out-of-date information remaining here when it has been updated in the main articles on the topic. Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 07:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
In the third paragraph, it states "There are also several Muslim organizations that support LGBT rights and LGBT Muslims." kindly mention the aforementioned Muslim organization for transparency and neutrality. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicop33 ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
I want to add Hidayah to the list of active groups as I recently attended a conference which was organised by them and felt that their presence was lacking on this website. I am currently working on research around LGBT+ Muslim activist groups and they are very active in the UK along with the other groups listed on this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamieMansoor ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Eperoton: I took this feedback on board and added this Metro article which describes one of the workshops Hidayah organised
https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/25/im-muslim-and-lgbt-and-i-teach-children-its-ok-to-be-both-8713922/
You can also see this newspaper article for further information
It just keeps getting deleted. I also tried to move the active groups above the defunct groups because that seemed to make more sense to me. However, this is no longer something I'm willing to challenge as it's not that important.
I included some further background on where beliefs stem from in the Islamic faith. Both the Qur'an and Hadith, are used to cite discrimination toward the community. However, as times have changed and society is constantly pushing to gain more equality for everyone, people in the Islamic community continue to challenge the discrimination. The Islamic Society of North America, in 2013, established their approval of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, ensuring that people are not discrimination based on their sexual orientation. Additionally, there have been the rise of Unity Mosques, which are inclusive of the LGBTQ community across the United States and in Canada. Laurapollack ( talk) 02:16, 31 October 2019 (UTC) Laura Pollack
While reading through and editing this page, I noticed that there is a lack of recent events from news outlets. I have added some myself but believe there is still a need for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NoahScafati ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I added a relevant fact about Egypt's criminalization of homosexuality: "An Egyptian tv host was recently sentenced to a year in prison for interviewing a gay man in January 2019. [121]" This addition shows the overall negative social attitudes towards homosexuality and the extremes that the Government take it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonkuflik ( talk • contribs) 20:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Wiki-editors, I re-added the summary chart at the bottom of the page. I was working on this page as a assigned project for my class. I notice someone is keep removing it. I have a request that this is not a medical topic and I tried to added as many as countries possible on the table after doing the enough research. To me this chart was very useful for the information as you can see more than one country at one chart instead of going back and forth for the information. I put it up there to benefit my other readers as well. Requesting again, please let it be there, I appreciate your understanding in advance. Thank you! Shahzia Perveen ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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Images
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I am seeking attention about these two photos, I think the writings are enough to understand the matter, and the depiction is not further needed to add here because it does not enhance the encyclopedic quality, and if that according to WP:GRATUITOUS, images which can be offensive or vulgar to any viewer are not allowed to be added in wikipedia. Or if dont, the photos should be kept as collapsible at least. Besides the article is about Islam, mostly muslims will come to read the article and the fundamental rules of muslims is to protect their gaze, it is more important in Islam than depicting Muhammad (modestly), and the article should at least make the photos as collapsed so that wikipedia does not seem to force viewer to see the photos, by giving them option. 43.245.120.33 ( talk) 02:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
No collapsing in the article per DMacks. That's not done in any article. Crossroads -talk- 01:49, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Sara hegazy was not a Muslim but an Atheist Nlivataye ( talk) 14:56, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
She was also a communist; an important indication and though not claiming all communists must be atheists there is a correlation there Nlivataye ( talk) 17:31, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
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The section which i would like to be removed from this page is the below one
"Some Muslim academics disagree with this interpretation, arguing that the "people of Lut" were destroyed not because of participation in same-sex acts, but because of misdeeds which included refusing to worship one God, disregarding the authority of the Prophets and messengers, and attempting to rape the travelers, a crime made even worse by the fact that the travelers were under Lut's protection and hospitality"
This text was given under the table tile "in Quran" which means anything given in this section should be present in Quran and not of personal opinion of someone. For example if some article states Abraham Lincoln was not the president of United States , i think wiki will reject it even if it is from an famous author. Similarly "in Quran" section should contain passages of only the verses from Quran. There is no mention of idol worship in Quranic verses when prophet Lot is talking to his people. Please look at the verses of Lot in Quran https://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%28lot%29&chapter=&translator=5&search=1&search_word=all&start=0&records_display=10&phonetic= 124.40.246.231 ( talk) 14:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Junaid1068, digressions aside, Wikipedia policy is very clear about this. The edit you’re suggesting would violate WP:RNPOV, a foundational aspect of Wikipedia. What you’re proposing is that we include a theological view specific to Muslims as unvarnished truth, and that’s simply not going to happen. We reflect what mainstream scholarly sources say. And that some Muslims might get “wrong information” is immaterial. We do report what the majority theological view amongst Muslims is. So, it’s very much already there. But we can’t say it’s the truth, because it’s contradicted by archaeological and textual evidence. It’s not our job to practice Muslim apologetics, or discourage what you see as heretical opinions. Symmachus Auxiliarus ( talk) 18:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
The comment "Islam is the truth, despite to even if you do not want to admit it," is a prime example of what is delaying your unblock. It is very easy for me to read that and interpret your statement as you saying that your belief in Islam will cause you to edit with a pro-Islam perspective and rejecting neutral, factual sources for religious ones.
No religion holds a monopoly on truth: not Islam, not Christianity, not Judaism, not Hinduism, not Buddhism, not the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It may feel like Wikipedia's version of truth is an atheistic truth. If so, it's because atheists don't look at religious perspectives for guidance but focus on objective, observable facts. Wikipedia's WP:Neutral point of view and WP:Reliable sources policies work on those lines: events should be written about in articles based on reliable sources, and preferably independent ones. The encyclopedia does not yield to religious doctrine or polity.
One personal note: yes, I'm a member of an organized religion. The teachings—or truths, if you prefer—of my church are the lens by which I look at my own behaviour. Other than being mindful of how I treat my fellow editors, it does not influence my editing. Even in articles related to my religion, what is "truth" is dictated by what is shown in the historical record and independent sources. — C.Fred ( talk) 16:03, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Hi
GenoV84, how is The two world maps of the percentage of Muslims per country and the countries that support LGBT rights at the UN give an impression of the attitude towards homosexuality on the part of many Muslim-majority governments.
sourced? Do you feel like it is a case of eyeball estimation?
Neither source mentions muslims/islam, so how is the inclusion of the information not OR by suggesting an (unsourced) link between muslim-majority countries and attitudes towards homosexuality? See Wikipedia:No_original_research#cite_note-7. The inclusion of the maps should be conditional on the inclusion of (existing) research on muslim-majority countries and homosexuality.
And what does Raja Gemini have to do with the topic? Best, 15 ( talk) 13:24, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
this project is serious enough to me, you should get familiar with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, including Behavioral guidelines and Content guidelines, in order to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner. GenoV84 ( talk) 00:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
GenoV84 ( talk) 00:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)The work of hundreds of activists and experts for the protection and promotion of LGBT rights around the globe leaves no doubt that the repression of homosexuality and queerness is a global phenomenon. Indeed, as highlighted in the HRC 17/19 Resolution, as well as in the High Commissioner’s Report and in several other UN Committees’ reports, violations of human ri ghts are frequently visited upon LGBT communities, even in the most liberal and democratic states. 6 It is particularly alarming that in 2011, seventy-six states had criminal laws and penal sanctions attached, as a consequence of sexual orientation, to sexual behavior or gender identity.7 This number increased to seventy-eight in 2012. A first reading of these statistics suggests that both homophobia and the criminalization of homosexuality are phenomena of global reach. In fact, it is only half of these seventy-eight states that are Muslim-majority or Sharia-compliant states. 8 Yet it seems that there is a certain “privileged” connection between Islam and the repression of homosexuality. All five states that currently punish same-sex relations by the death penalty are Sharia-compliant: Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, and Sudan.9 The death penalty is also applied in the northern region of Nigeria, which has predominantly Muslim populations, and the southern parts of Somalia. 10 The most brutal punishments, including lashes and public stoning, as well as arbitrary executions, also occur in Muslim-majority states (namely, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Qatar, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Malaysia). 11 Some of the Islamic states that impose life imprisonment do so on the basis of the Sharia injunctions (for example, Maldives). 12 Even the most “tolerant” states still punish the offense of “unnatural intercourse” (Bangladesh). 13 Furthermore, the Muslim-majority states that criminalize same sex relationships have also proved to have the highest levels of homophobia and intolerance towards sexual diversity. 14 [2]
Neither is about editors' POV, OR and Synth. I am not interested in lectures - you know how to use quote template, so find a quote from serious piece of scholarship where the phrase is used, with a title and page number.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 00:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Not to mention it's not grammatically correct to say "Islamic death penalty" (that's why you won't find it in serious scholarship) - unless you want to introduce to encyclopedia that there is something intrinsically Islamic in killing a person ?-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 00:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
wikilinks aren't verbatim quotes, and every user knows that. If you are not interested in checking out the cited sources, don't care about dispute resolution, and refuse to acknowledge the reality of these informations supported by multiple academic references cited throughout the entire article, then I'm afraid that Wikipedia is not the place for you, because you seem to be here only to propagate your personal point of view by censoring and disrupting sourced content supported by the aforementioned numerous reliable and academic references. I've wasted my time. GenoV84 ( talk) 01:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Manticore:, @ VenusFeuerFalle:, GenoV84, please, do not pretend that you are doing something innocuous by inventing explicit and controversial phrase, which doesn't exists nor can be found in reliable sources, and using it for pipe in a wikilink so that you can apply Easteregg guideline. Find the way to amend the problem properly.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 02:35, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
decorum preservation.... Are you serious? Explain what is your definition of decorum preservation, because you have demonstrated to be unable to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner, yet you also pretend to have the high ground to judge other users' conduct while claiming to have discussed with them respectfully because of decorum preservation, which can't be found anywhere in the article's Talk page, since you have repeatedly attempted to censor and disrupt sourced, encyclopedic content supported by multiple academic and reliable references in the article through many, unnecessarily querulous edit summaries with a presumptuous attitude both towards me and other users (@ VenusFeuerFalle: and @ Manticore:), despite the fact that in my first reply I suggested you to
try to calm down and check out the cited sources by yourself instead of lashing out on other users aggressively, because there's absolutely no need to behave that way during a dispute resolution, especially considering the fact that this entire discussion and edit war that you started is about something so innocuous as a wikilink.
get familiar with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, including Behavioral guidelines and Content guidelines, in order to engage and cooperate with other users in a proper, civil manner, and to check out the cited sources before accusing other users of ill intent both through your many, unnecessarily querulous edit summaries and messages on the article's Talk page, which is a blatant violation of WP:AGF. You did neither of those things, apparently.
I am really struggling to understand what you are writing - I am sorry but, really, I am having a hard time to catch your drift. My English is barely usable, but, boy, to my abilities yours is even worse. But, that being said, I think that my intentions were more than clear, and series of explaining, which I provided in my posts here from the beginning, should suffice for even the weakest user of English, or the finest connoisseur of literary English, if we are to consider both extremes.
But I am curious still, so please, do tell - what is "Islamic death penalty"? How that thing differs from any other "death penalty", is there a "Western death penalty" or "American death penalty or "Vatican death penalty" or "Atheist death penalty"?) and can be found in the very first paragraph of the article's lead section, by stating the same phrase over and over again:
I am not interested in lecturing.
Begging for evidence when the evidence has already been provided with reliable sources and quotes, then dismissing the provided evidence by stating the same phrase over and over again (I am not interested in lecturing
) with no counterarguments and without refraining from making
personal attacks and
offensive remarks about other users, is starting to feel like
WP:ICANTHEARYOU. I called Santasa99 out on that as inappropriate behaviour twice; instead of refraining from his/her reiterated
tendentiousness,
personal attacks, and
disruption to illustrate his/her point, he/she refuses to take accountability for his/her inappropriate conduct by pointing the finger at other editors repeatedly. Meanwhile, user Santasa99 has continued to denigrate the user
VenusFeuerFalle on the
article's Talk page for being a non-native speaker of English, regardless of
good manners and civility: as an additional reason, you are the last editor I would be willing to take her/his word on grammar issues, after this exchange!
(the text is highlighted in bold in the original comment on the
article's Talk page, not my addition). Moreover, there's obviously
no consensus to change the aforementioned wikilink against all the cited references by suggesting that they don't contain the verbatim designation that Santasa99 seems to be so upset about, as three editors have already expressed their disagreement with Santasa99 and objected to his/her changes based on policy
WP:EASTEREGG. It's depressing that this editor is choosing to edit-war in order to promote his/her own
point of view, without providing any verifiable sources that support their opinion, resorting to insult and attack other users instead of
collaborating with them respectfully.
GenoV84 (
talk)
20:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Ok, here's what I intend to do, based on our core content policies and guidelines: I intend to remove any usage of the phrase "Islamic death penalty" [...] I intend to do this removal by rephrasing two sentences/statements which expressing exactly the same information, using exactly the same wiki-links, and exactly the same references, and are both inserted in the WP:LEDE, only few lines apart. By amending this repetitiveness, I intend to remove usage of constructed controversial phrase "Islamic death penalty";
I am not intending anything differently from what I tried earlier - if anything, this intention is much more substantial in comparison with my earlier edit, which was reduced to removing only one word.
How do you expect to collaborate with other users without providing any evidence that could validate your viewpoint, especially if you're not even willing to compromise with them when different solutions and proposals have already been made? GenoV84 ( talk) 00:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Some hadith collections condemn homosexual and transgender acts,[5][7][12][16] making them forbidden in traditional Islamic jurisprudence and liable to different punishments, including stoning and the death penalty for both partners, the active and receptive, who have engaged in male homosexual intercourse,[1][2][6] depending on the circumstances, country and the legal school.
Result: User:Santasa99 is warned for breaking 3RR at LGBT in Islam on 12 February. They may be blocked if they revert the article again without getting a prior consensus in their favor on the talk page. Santasa99 is convinced that the phrase 'Islamic death penalty' should not be used in Wikipedia, and has made a detailed proposal at Talk:LGBT in Islam#Amending deficiencies in LEDE for removing it from articles. If they embark on this plan without prior consensus there will be consequences. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:26, 16 February 2022 (UTC)GenoV84 ( talk) 11:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
I've been polite and respectful during the entire dispute resolution; sadly, it couldn't be said the same for you. Accusing me of being impolite and of trying to derail the discussion while you have repeatedly insulted me and other editors, and simultaneously reporting me at WP:ANI hoping that I will get blocked, is definitely another violation of WP:AGF and WP:ASPERSIONS on your part, and clearly not even a smart move, especially after the warning directed to you on WP:AN3. GenoV84 ( talk) 11:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
At present, homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries, including 38 within the Commonwealth. At least five countries - the Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania and Sudan - have used the death penalty against gay people.
Facts as drug trafficking, homosexual behaviour, and apostasy are liable to capital punishment.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aalle176 ( article contribs).
Putting this stuff here makes as much sense as putting
Rape,
sexual slavery and
child molestation at
Heterosexuality. -
Daveout
(talk)
12:34, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
These phrases seem to push POV. Evidently the governments of the countries in question do not believe the cards are "wrong". Equinox ◑ 14:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
The article cites Scott as some sort of authority that is qualified to argue for a different interpretation of the story of the people of Prophet Lot, Prayers of God be upon him.
There is a huge difference between a "research scholar" and Muslim Scholar. Not anyone who claims to be a scholar is automatically granted or accepted as such. There are strict qualifications, including but not limited to peer acceptance and testimony by other established Muslim scholars. Scott is no such person, not even close.
He has absolutely no qualifications, nor do his opinions carry any weight in this matter. We have strict unanimous consensus among scholars of Islam since the beginning of Islam that homosexual acts are prohibited, and that the story of the people of Prophet Lot, Peace be upon him, clearly indicates this. Not just in the Quran, but the many authentic Hadiths as well. To attempt to deny and "reinterpret" those Ayat and Hadiths is bending and denying logic and authenticity, not to mention clear language and consensus.
Scott is not a Muslim scholar ('alim or Faqeeh). A Faqeeh is someone who has deep and intricate knowledge of Islamic Fiqh (Jurisprudence), and has qualifications to deduce rulings or issue fatwas on certain topics.
It is very well established among even beginner students of Islamic knowledge that we have something called in Islam (known in the religion by necessity - معلوم من الدين بالضرورة). These are axiomatic givens that have no room for interpretation, such as the prohibition of intoxicating drinks, the prohibition of pork, the requirement of Salah, Fasting, and Hajj for Muslims, prohibition of fornication and adultery, and so on. Homosexual acts fall under this category, and hence no Muslim scholar would ever argue or attempt to come up with a different "interpretation" for its prohibition. Insisting to do so after explaining the truth and crystal clear evidence of the matter, and that it is not open for interpretation may very well render that person outside the folds of Islam if he has any semblance of mental sanity.
My strong recommendation is to remove Scott's reference from the article.
24.127.250.116 (
talk)
20:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
This
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but modern Western historians have concluded that the Islamic prophet Muhammad never forbade homosexual relationships outright
IS WRONG! That is simply and utterly false. There is a hadith by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Ibn 'Abbas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1456; Abu Dawud, 4462; Ibn Majah, 2561. This hadith was classed as sahih by Shaykh al-Albani in Sahih al-Jami’, no. 6589)
It is clearly forbidden. Please change this information if you truly want to publish only facts. 39.36.173.70 ( talk) 13:15, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Every single citation in this page is a non authority on Islam but simply personal opinions. Islam forbad homosexuality because Allah simply forbad it and it is very clearly stated in the Quran and Hadith. Obviously the people responsible for this misinformation don’t care about the truth but only their personal agenda. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that the Prophet Mohammad did not forbid the action of homosexuality. First it is Allah that forbids not Prophet Mohammad . He is a messenger of Allah, he obeys Allah’s commands which clearly says in the Quran that sodomy is a a sin that deserved Allah’s punishment of the people of Sodom! 65.95.226.52 ( talk) 00:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
We have a section dedicated to the history of homosexuality. LGBT is also about trans people who are not necessarily gay (even if we consider people by their gender assigend at birth). I feel like there is some undue weight. Maybe we can add a transgender history section, if sufficient material is available, or trim the homosexuality section? Especially since other sections also treat the issue of homosexuality and anal intercourse in much detail. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm not even sure where to begin with this trainwreck of an article, carefully written to prioritize modern, progressive analyses of sexuality in Islam that very few Muslims or Muslim authorities actually accept. The main device it uses is looking at things with a purely sociological lense in which the actions of certain Muslims throughout history are divorced from what Islamic law actually says.
The introduction implies that Muslims accepted the LGBT throughout history until the West enforced prejudice on Muslim-majority countries in the 19th century. Yet the article itself goes into detail about how literally all the normal positions of Islamic law forbid gender fluidity and homosexuality to such an extent that all schools unanimously uphold capital punishment for sodomy based on the Hadith. How can this be reconciled with the ludicrous claim that the Prophet "never forbade homosexual relationships outright?" The prevalence of homosexuality in pre-modern Islamic polities, most of which was in the form of pederasty, doesn't mean that Islam inherently condoned it. Pederasty is NOT synonymous with the LGBT as we understand it today, that is an anachronistic interpretation and certainly not something that most people today would support. Plenty of claims in this article are not sourced at all, such as how normal medieval Muslims "usually apprehended the idea (homosexuality) with indifference, if not admiration."
If there are viewpoints of Islam's relationship with the LGBT that are minority positions, then you have to acknowledge that they are considered fringe, unpopular and irrelevant in Islamic legal circles. Instead, this article priorities these arguments while obscuring the Islamic stance. Numerous paragraphs are devoted to progressive interpretations of Islamic texts from academics who are not even proper Islamic authorities such as Scott Kugle, yet erudite refutations of their work from Muslim scholars are only passingly mentioned in single lines. This is an encyclopedia of established information, yes? Then why are random American academics who support the LGBT given multiple subsections discussing their work while the traditional Islamic positions are framed as "Wahhabist," informed by 19th century "Christian law," etc? The editors dance around these issues by claiming that they only accept rigorous academic citations and that primary Islamic texts are not "reliable sources for Islam." That's a very amusing response. It's obvious to anyone who reads this article that mostly one particular kind of historical study is referenced, and those are secular studies that support the LGBT movement and claim that Muslims tolerated it until the big bad colonizers showed up in the 19th century.
If you want to be honest about how Islam views the LGBT then perhaps focus on citing actual Muslims instead of white academics from Western countries and removing claims with no citations. You can't dance around the Islamic basis for why modern Muslims generally oppose the LGBT by citing books talking about how pederasty was common in the Middle Ages or ignoring that modern Muslims cite their reservations about LGBT behaviors from their holy texts, not 19th century Christian influence from colonial law. This is not a professional, balanced article in the slightest. HVAC84 ( talk) 08:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Maybe by sticking with the talkpage guidlines. When the issues are explained in an factual matter, other Users can follow the objection. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 09:58, 28 January 2024 (UTC)"I'm not even sure where to begin with this trainwreck of an article"
I would love to engage to counter such delusional non-sense, since there are strong assusations and hatred towards, not only academics, but also people of color who stick with an objective meassurement instead of blindly following ideologies. However, WP:FORUM permitts it. Instead, I would suggest to remove any further incivilized expression of thought and providing misinformation, instead of engaging with it. If this person wants to rant about its own views being in odds with facts, they are free to find social media spaces in which they are free to live out whatever they want to believe in without any regards for reality and facts. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 10:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)That's a very amusing response. It's obvious to anyone who reads this article that mostly one particular kind of historical study is referenced, and those are secular studies that support the LGBT movement and claim that Muslims tolerated it until the big bad colonizers showed up in the 19th century. If you want to be honest about how Islam views the LGBT then perhaps focus on citing actual Muslims instead of white academics from Western countries and removing claims with no citations.
I think this is now the third article about this subject. We have Zina which is discussing legal matters on sexuality, we have this article, and we have Sexuality in Islam and often, they discuss the very same things. My suggestion is: Would it help to focus in this article on modern to post-modern only? LGBT(QIA) is a movement of the second half of the 20th century. Projecting such issues into pre-Modern times is anachronistic. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
This
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Requesting to add this part in modern interpretation section: Zakir Naik claimed in a public lecture's question-answer that, the cause of homosexuality is not genetic [1], because research of gay gene ( Xq28) was later proved as false and the man ( Dean Hamer) who claimed to discover it, later himself identified as a homosexual, thus he falsely claimed the discovery of this gene as genetic [2] [3]; The actual cause of it is satisfying sexual desire outside the law of Allah, which is lawful marriage in Islam; when someone meets sexual desire outside marriage such as premarital and extramarital sex, gradually he or she gets bored and doesn't get pleasure, then he or she tends to find new experience and tries new ways to have pleasure, by this way, at a level of this line up, people tends to homosexual activities, which has happened in present western world; thus, it is not genetic, rather than a psychological choice. [4] [5] 202.134.13.134 ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
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