This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Don't know if this is already mentioned somewhere in this article or in the editing talk page: the book Tornados, Dark Days, Anomalous Precipitation and related weather phenomena by William R. Corliss (The Sourcebook Project, 1983). This book has something on page 169 about pranks of whirlwinds and dust devils. A certain J.L.Capes (see Nature, 135:511, 1935) mentioned the names Ginni and Afrit as spirits, related to dust devils. I want to know if Ginni is (or are) the same as Jinn. DannyCaes ( talk) 18:05, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
"Genies" are indeed an alternative transscription of the Arabic term جن and the article mentions whirlwinds in one sentence in a sub-section of Jinn in misty forms: "The jinn are also related to the wind, and may even appear in mists or sandstorms". This could nevertheless be expanded and the belief that jinn cause sandstorms seems to be quite common. You could add the concent down there. Thanks for the literature, I would love to check this out myself.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:51, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
The lead section regarding this sentence " they may represent several pagan beliefs integrated into Islam" is an altered version of the former "several pagan deities integrated into Islam", which seems to have offended by some Muslim users and thus changed. But "pagan beliefs" here serves merely as an euphemism to "deities" or "spiris venerated by pagans" (which makes it a deity) and covers the actual meaning. It is further unnecessarily vague since "pagan beliefs" could also apply to rituals performed. Exactly the rituals were changed with Islam, by integrating the jinn, reducing them to mere spirits instead of deities. Further, it should not be that disputable that the jinn are even among Muslims acknowledged as former deities (in the sense of spirits venerated by humans), as in culture, they are still referred to as "masters" (In Mughal or Urdu cultures according to the body of the text). F. Meier argues that early Islam integrated many pagan deities into its system by degrading them to spirit, and the Quran speaks about jinn being worshipped by pagans, but reduced the status of jinn from that of tutelary deities. Later, the test (sourced) states "belief in the jinn was assimilated with local belief about spirits and deities from Iran, Africa, Turkey and India". It seems to be more confusing than helping to cover the jinn as subjects of worship under the disguise of "beliefs" instead of "deities". It rather seems, it is due to religious feelings (not even justified, as it seems to be based on an attempt to reconsile Islam with Christianity, in whcih jinn are absent, by denoting jinn as something similar to Wester devils, which they are simply not) and not based on accuracity. I would suggest to rewrite this part to "pagan deities" again, but add "reduced to spirits, subject to the judgment of one true God" to emphazise, Islam does not support the deification of jinn, but acknowledged this spirits were venerated before.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 16:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 7 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ali.Ramos23.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I have changed the line "In Islam, Satan, known in Arabic as Iblees, is the iconic genie that refused to bow down to Adam when ordered to by Allah" to say God, instead of Allah. Since the article is English, the name should be translated into English also - and it means God. Allah is not a seperate name for the God featured in the Q'ran. 58.111.69.99 ( talk) 01:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
The sentence is Christian POV anyway; "In Islam, Satan, known in Arabic as Iblis..." The sentence should be "In Islam, the devil, known in Arabic as Iblis..." As to the term Allah, this is an article on an Islamic belief, therefore the term does not seem out of place, even if it could be seen as non-Muslims as Islamic-POV. 68.148.123.76 ( talk) 05:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 00:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
To either Djinn or Jinn (moving the current disambiguation page to Jinn (disambiguation)). To quote the article:Awareness about the origins of the genie, and the use of the original spelling jinn has become more common today. Usually, the term djinn is used by authors who wish to convey a more serious interpretation of the legendary entity, rather than the comical genies that the Western public has become used to, such as Robin Williams' character in Aladdin.
The article already prefers these terms over "genie", and that should be reflected in the title. -- Paul_012 ( talk) 22:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey, if noone objects, I would like to attempt a little trimming. Especially parts I once wrote myself appear to be trivial, given the ammount of content the article got over the years. I would further try to summarize parts from the article, so it is not all scattered over the article.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 02:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Superstitions in Muslim societies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstitions in Muslim societies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Bookku ( talk) 05:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Move to Genie as it is the much more common name. 2A02:C7F:31CF:6400:B55F:3868:7D48:BA90 ( talk) 09:18, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to rename this article. Feel free to rename Jinn in popular culture. Skomorokh, barbarian 19:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Genie →
Jinn — "Jinn" is the name of the religious phenomena in Islam (also Djinn), "Genie" is the anglicised version found in 19th century Orientalist fiction. So while "Jinn" is appropriate for the article on the "angels"; "Genie" is alright for the pop culture section.
Sherurcij (
speaker for the dead)
03:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 22:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Genie →
Jinn — The article (now at "
Genie") deals with the jinn in Islamic culture(s). The title is probably what least worries me but it is clearly not in line with common usage in reliable secondary sources written in English - which is where we are supposed to look to determine the appropriate title for any article (per
WP:Article title and
WP:RS; I hope that's common knowledge among at least the experienced editors). For some evidence in recent literature on jinn, see the further reading section (freshly added). Incidentally, a similar request was made by
User:Sherurcij in November last year, but the resulting discussion was a poor show, with Sherurcij's arguments being just flatly ignored.
Cavila (
talk)
14:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Partial support I don't have a strong opinion on Jinn versus Genie, but I certainly support Jinn → Jinn (disambiguation). Typing "Jinn" should go directly to the Jinn/Genie page because it's by far the major usage and should not need to be disambiguated from a minor Japanese band. Just take a look at the incoming links to the Jinn page - most if not all refer to Jinn/Genie, not the band. Adpete ( talk) 01:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm... I Dream of Jinn... with a spritz of lime. — AjaxSmack 19:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
The lead states that "jinn" has the broader meaning of "demon or spirits-depending on source". While it is true, neither translation is accurate and rather serves a purpose within a specific framework. For example, an author writing about possession in Middle East, is likely to refer to jinn as "demons", while in the theological sense, when they are contrasted with devils and angels, or their moral ambiguity comes into play, they are rather translated as "spirits". However, neither translation really fits. Demons are usually the evil entities, not necessarily theologically associated, but yet generally harmful. Spirits on the other hand are usually incorporeal. Even this is often commented on, if a work goes into detail about jinn. For example in "Magic and Divination in Early Islam" the part by Joseph Henninger states "using the term "spirits" for these beigns must not lead us to assume that their nature was altogether non-physical and immaterial." Tobias Nünlst (cited) likewise uses an introduction to define the term "Dämon" (demon/daimon) first. There is a section specifically about bodily interactions with the world, but the translation of "spirit" (just like "demons") appears to me rather confusing. It is true, that jinn are "spirits" in Muslim Philosophy (in the tradition of ibn Sina and al-Farabi), but they pretty much have their own understanding of jinn. The most similar Western concept, wether they are etymological related or not, remains the Roman Genii. I propose to remove the translations, because they are not helpful. What do others think?-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 00:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
As we all know the jinn or jinnah is a Arabic word. The jinn according to ARABIAN NIGHTS JINN WAS FIRSTLY SEEN WITH ALLADIN ALSO, called as ALLADIN ka chirag. 2409:4089:AD10:3935:0:0:4ECA:820E ( talk) 10:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the rewrite of the article, TompaDompa ( talk · contribs) However, if all the duplicated explanations were removed, the article would generally encompass a paragraph and can easily be merged into the main article. I would like to propose a merge until such time as it grows so large for the main article it must be split off, if ever. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 15:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Thinking about changing this, since jinn-beliefs aren't necessarily an Islamic belief only, although most academic sources focus on jinn when dealin with Islam. Since jinn are mostly a folkloric concept, Jews and Christians might as well believe in jinn. For example "The Moroccan Demon in Israel" mentions jinn (jnun) beliefs among Jews in Morocco. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 02:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Recently, the Categroy "Quranic words and phrases" were added. Since the catergory is only about the term, but not about the concept, the category was removed again. However, I think it might make sense toa dd this category, given this specific section of the article:
"In Quranic interpretation, the term jinn can be used in two different ways: as invisible beings, considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār). as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings."
This article also covers the meaning of this term, not only the concept, although the main focus is on the concept. But since Islamic exegesis is inconsistent in using the term as a concept on its own and as a term with various meanings, we might add the category "Quranic words and phrases". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 12:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
The article itself is pretty long, and a large part seems to be the popular Culture section. There is muhc literature analyzing jinn as a motif in Horror Movies. We have a Genii in Popular Culture article but mostly featuring "Western" tropes of the "Genie in the Bottle". Do you think there should be an article about jinn in Horror Movies? I would suggest that we leave only an outline on jinn in Horror movies, a few references to confirm jinn d feature as a Horror Trope in modern times, and then move most details to the new article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 20:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
What do other editors of this article think about merging parts of theology and exegesis, and folkoric content? Many content is written like a list of depictions of jinn from different sources, but could be changed into one prose text. Similarly, theology and exegesis contain double content such as the position of the Asharis about jinn-possession. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Currently if you look at the main image, it says it is a jinn, which you can tell because, as the caption claims anyway, it has hooves, which is seemingly the only determining factor of whether something is a jinn or not? But if you click on that image, however, it says it is a div. Div are described as having tusks like a boar, which this image does. Divs are not jinn, so one of those pages is clearly incorrect. But the caption says it is a jinn, because hooves! Yet if you click on the red jinn image on the same page, you get a jinn without hooves. Can someone who knows these things do something to fix this? 2601:840:8080:4B10:6D5B:B488:A666:9E21 ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Queso Misterioso ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Queso Misterioso ( talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
@ TheEagle107: here we go again. Please make yourself familar with the discussion and respond o the objection before adding reverted edits over and over again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VenusFeuerFalle ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC) edit dif
@
Skyerise:
I recently
enlarged some images of jinn. These were
mostly reverted by
Skyerise as "
oversized" or because "
only lead image should be manually enlarged". I realize that if Skyrise is opposed to my changes then there is no consensus for them, but for the record they were enlarged because at least on the settings for most laptops or phones they were small, cramped, hard to see. It's not as though space is limited and larger images squeeze out text. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk)
01:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@
VenusFeuerFalle:
I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by
VenusFeuerFalle, who's reverted pretty much every edit I've made to Islamic articles in the last week or so. Below is what happened, and my case against the reverts.
The first (somewhat clumsy) attempt in the lede
VenusFeuerFalle reverted this with the edit summary:
The second attempt was with a much shorter mention in the lede
reverted with the edit summary:
I also added text in the Exegesis section of the article
reverted with the edit summary
reverted with the edit summary:
The one sentence I put in the lede is a summary of the what is in the articles Exegesis section. Jinn are mentioned 29 or so times in the Quran. They have a surah named after them. Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm, Abul A'la Maududi, and others seem to think they are an Islamic concept. They are major figures in Islam.
If a "dude" (
Nasr Abu Zayd) is
threated with death for apostasy (in part) because he didn't believe in jinn (he also didn't believe in slavery),
and if belief in his apostasy in his country (Egypt) is so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him
..... wouldn't this be the very definition of not "petty"!
Another question, Does this text not belong in
Exegesis? (where the issue of belief in jinn being a necessary part of Iman was raised)? OK, but it should be moved, not deleted.
Maududi has been called "the most influential" of the contemporary Islamic revivalist scholars (Hassan, M Kamal (July–October 2003).
"he Influence of Mawdudi's Thought on Muslims in Southeast Asia: A Brief Survey". The Muslim World. 93 (3/4): 429. Retrieved 14 March 2024.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link))
As far as exegesis goes, he is the author of a 6-volume translation and commentary of the Qur'an. Isn't wikipedia supposed to be based on reliable sources and not editor's opinions on who is an "authority"?
What is this text doing in a section on
Exegesis, you might ask. Well, what is discussion of whether the majority of Muslim scholars think "that jinn can possess individuals" doing there? Is that found in tafsir?
I specifically stated "(at least according to Amira El-Zein)". She was the source (she's the author of a book on Jinn), and stated in her book "one can't be a Muslim if he/she doesn't have faith in their [the jinns'] existence because they are mentioned in the Qur'an and the prophetic tradition." I made a point of toning down her contention a bit by saying you can't be a good Muslim, suggesting disbelievers in jinn were being lax rather than apostates. -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions. Descriptions about what is an is not accepted orthodoxy in a religion as widespread and varied as Islam must be very carefully qualified with attribution and consideration to due weight. It appears to me (knowing very little) that Jinn being an "essential" feature of Islam is closer to a fringe view than a mainstream position, so in that sense I lean toward VenusFeuerFalle's positions. If that position is indeed fringe, that doesn't totally rule out including it, but it means the information must be carefully and conservatively presented, and probably doesn't belong in the lede. That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. If my input doesn't help reach a resolution here, I suggest raising this at WikiProject Islam where subject matter experts may be able to weigh in. Cheers - StereoFolic ( talk) 23:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
Thanks for the advise. I prioritize civil language and kind words. However, this specific user appears since about 2 years frequently after I edited an article, makes some rather disruptive edits, and then leaves the article. Some of these disruptions are basic formats such as using ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers. In the beginning I cleaned up after them and kindly reminded them to use the proper formation, did not stoppe after a year. I left some articles completely to them after constant edit warring about nothing without any sign of cooperation, and they left them in a worse state than before and then never touched them again. I hoped that direct speech might be a better way for communication. If this does not work either, I will completely give up on them. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language
The Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmad al-Tayyib said: "It is necessary to believe in the existence of jinn, because they are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an". [5] [6] [7] [8] There are numerous references to jinn in the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad). According to Islamic belief, jinn are real creatures. Characteristics they share with human beings are intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong and between good and bad, but according to the Qur'an [55: 14– 15] their origin is different from that of man.
Al-Tahawi (d. 321/933) said in his celebrated work on the fundamentals of the Islamic creed: "He (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad) has been sent to all of the jinn and the entirety of humanity with truth, guidance, light, and illumination."
The Hanafi scholar Badr al-Din al-Shibli (d. 769/1368) composed a work of 140 chapters on this topic, entitled Ākām al-Marjān fi Aḥkām al-Jānn ( Arabic: آكام المرجان في أحكام الجان), which was summarized by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505). [9] In this work there is a chapter about the existence of jinn and disagreement about them ( here or here). Badr al-Din al-Shibli said that al-Juwayni (Imam al-Haramayn) in his work al-Shamil fi Usul al-Din (The Compendium on the Principles of Religion) said: "Many philosophers, the majority of Qadariyya, and all heretics denied the existence of the shayatin (devils) and jinns.... Al-Baqillani said: Many Qadariyya affirm the existence of jinn in ancient times and deny their existence now... Imam al-Haramayn (i.e. al-Juwayni) said: ...(There is) a consensus of all scholars in the era of the Sahaba and Tabi'een on the existence of jinn and devils..." TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Nünlist-2015
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Don't know if this is already mentioned somewhere in this article or in the editing talk page: the book Tornados, Dark Days, Anomalous Precipitation and related weather phenomena by William R. Corliss (The Sourcebook Project, 1983). This book has something on page 169 about pranks of whirlwinds and dust devils. A certain J.L.Capes (see Nature, 135:511, 1935) mentioned the names Ginni and Afrit as spirits, related to dust devils. I want to know if Ginni is (or are) the same as Jinn. DannyCaes ( talk) 18:05, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
"Genies" are indeed an alternative transscription of the Arabic term جن and the article mentions whirlwinds in one sentence in a sub-section of Jinn in misty forms: "The jinn are also related to the wind, and may even appear in mists or sandstorms". This could nevertheless be expanded and the belief that jinn cause sandstorms seems to be quite common. You could add the concent down there. Thanks for the literature, I would love to check this out myself.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:51, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
The lead section regarding this sentence " they may represent several pagan beliefs integrated into Islam" is an altered version of the former "several pagan deities integrated into Islam", which seems to have offended by some Muslim users and thus changed. But "pagan beliefs" here serves merely as an euphemism to "deities" or "spiris venerated by pagans" (which makes it a deity) and covers the actual meaning. It is further unnecessarily vague since "pagan beliefs" could also apply to rituals performed. Exactly the rituals were changed with Islam, by integrating the jinn, reducing them to mere spirits instead of deities. Further, it should not be that disputable that the jinn are even among Muslims acknowledged as former deities (in the sense of spirits venerated by humans), as in culture, they are still referred to as "masters" (In Mughal or Urdu cultures according to the body of the text). F. Meier argues that early Islam integrated many pagan deities into its system by degrading them to spirit, and the Quran speaks about jinn being worshipped by pagans, but reduced the status of jinn from that of tutelary deities. Later, the test (sourced) states "belief in the jinn was assimilated with local belief about spirits and deities from Iran, Africa, Turkey and India". It seems to be more confusing than helping to cover the jinn as subjects of worship under the disguise of "beliefs" instead of "deities". It rather seems, it is due to religious feelings (not even justified, as it seems to be based on an attempt to reconsile Islam with Christianity, in whcih jinn are absent, by denoting jinn as something similar to Wester devils, which they are simply not) and not based on accuracity. I would suggest to rewrite this part to "pagan deities" again, but add "reduced to spirits, subject to the judgment of one true God" to emphazise, Islam does not support the deification of jinn, but acknowledged this spirits were venerated before.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 16:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 7 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ali.Ramos23.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I have changed the line "In Islam, Satan, known in Arabic as Iblees, is the iconic genie that refused to bow down to Adam when ordered to by Allah" to say God, instead of Allah. Since the article is English, the name should be translated into English also - and it means God. Allah is not a seperate name for the God featured in the Q'ran. 58.111.69.99 ( talk) 01:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
The sentence is Christian POV anyway; "In Islam, Satan, known in Arabic as Iblis..." The sentence should be "In Islam, the devil, known in Arabic as Iblis..." As to the term Allah, this is an article on an Islamic belief, therefore the term does not seem out of place, even if it could be seen as non-Muslims as Islamic-POV. 68.148.123.76 ( talk) 05:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 00:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
To either Djinn or Jinn (moving the current disambiguation page to Jinn (disambiguation)). To quote the article:Awareness about the origins of the genie, and the use of the original spelling jinn has become more common today. Usually, the term djinn is used by authors who wish to convey a more serious interpretation of the legendary entity, rather than the comical genies that the Western public has become used to, such as Robin Williams' character in Aladdin.
The article already prefers these terms over "genie", and that should be reflected in the title. -- Paul_012 ( talk) 22:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey, if noone objects, I would like to attempt a little trimming. Especially parts I once wrote myself appear to be trivial, given the ammount of content the article got over the years. I would further try to summarize parts from the article, so it is not all scattered over the article.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 02:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Superstitions in Muslim societies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstitions in Muslim societies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Bookku ( talk) 05:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Move to Genie as it is the much more common name. 2A02:C7F:31CF:6400:B55F:3868:7D48:BA90 ( talk) 09:18, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to rename this article. Feel free to rename Jinn in popular culture. Skomorokh, barbarian 19:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Genie →
Jinn — "Jinn" is the name of the religious phenomena in Islam (also Djinn), "Genie" is the anglicised version found in 19th century Orientalist fiction. So while "Jinn" is appropriate for the article on the "angels"; "Genie" is alright for the pop culture section.
Sherurcij (
speaker for the dead)
03:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 22:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Genie →
Jinn — The article (now at "
Genie") deals with the jinn in Islamic culture(s). The title is probably what least worries me but it is clearly not in line with common usage in reliable secondary sources written in English - which is where we are supposed to look to determine the appropriate title for any article (per
WP:Article title and
WP:RS; I hope that's common knowledge among at least the experienced editors). For some evidence in recent literature on jinn, see the further reading section (freshly added). Incidentally, a similar request was made by
User:Sherurcij in November last year, but the resulting discussion was a poor show, with Sherurcij's arguments being just flatly ignored.
Cavila (
talk)
14:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Partial support I don't have a strong opinion on Jinn versus Genie, but I certainly support Jinn → Jinn (disambiguation). Typing "Jinn" should go directly to the Jinn/Genie page because it's by far the major usage and should not need to be disambiguated from a minor Japanese band. Just take a look at the incoming links to the Jinn page - most if not all refer to Jinn/Genie, not the band. Adpete ( talk) 01:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm... I Dream of Jinn... with a spritz of lime. — AjaxSmack 19:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
The lead states that "jinn" has the broader meaning of "demon or spirits-depending on source". While it is true, neither translation is accurate and rather serves a purpose within a specific framework. For example, an author writing about possession in Middle East, is likely to refer to jinn as "demons", while in the theological sense, when they are contrasted with devils and angels, or their moral ambiguity comes into play, they are rather translated as "spirits". However, neither translation really fits. Demons are usually the evil entities, not necessarily theologically associated, but yet generally harmful. Spirits on the other hand are usually incorporeal. Even this is often commented on, if a work goes into detail about jinn. For example in "Magic and Divination in Early Islam" the part by Joseph Henninger states "using the term "spirits" for these beigns must not lead us to assume that their nature was altogether non-physical and immaterial." Tobias Nünlst (cited) likewise uses an introduction to define the term "Dämon" (demon/daimon) first. There is a section specifically about bodily interactions with the world, but the translation of "spirit" (just like "demons") appears to me rather confusing. It is true, that jinn are "spirits" in Muslim Philosophy (in the tradition of ibn Sina and al-Farabi), but they pretty much have their own understanding of jinn. The most similar Western concept, wether they are etymological related or not, remains the Roman Genii. I propose to remove the translations, because they are not helpful. What do others think?-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 00:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
As we all know the jinn or jinnah is a Arabic word. The jinn according to ARABIAN NIGHTS JINN WAS FIRSTLY SEEN WITH ALLADIN ALSO, called as ALLADIN ka chirag. 2409:4089:AD10:3935:0:0:4ECA:820E ( talk) 10:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the rewrite of the article, TompaDompa ( talk · contribs) However, if all the duplicated explanations were removed, the article would generally encompass a paragraph and can easily be merged into the main article. I would like to propose a merge until such time as it grows so large for the main article it must be split off, if ever. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 15:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Thinking about changing this, since jinn-beliefs aren't necessarily an Islamic belief only, although most academic sources focus on jinn when dealin with Islam. Since jinn are mostly a folkloric concept, Jews and Christians might as well believe in jinn. For example "The Moroccan Demon in Israel" mentions jinn (jnun) beliefs among Jews in Morocco. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 02:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Recently, the Categroy "Quranic words and phrases" were added. Since the catergory is only about the term, but not about the concept, the category was removed again. However, I think it might make sense toa dd this category, given this specific section of the article:
"In Quranic interpretation, the term jinn can be used in two different ways: as invisible beings, considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār). as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings."
This article also covers the meaning of this term, not only the concept, although the main focus is on the concept. But since Islamic exegesis is inconsistent in using the term as a concept on its own and as a term with various meanings, we might add the category "Quranic words and phrases". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 12:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
The article itself is pretty long, and a large part seems to be the popular Culture section. There is muhc literature analyzing jinn as a motif in Horror Movies. We have a Genii in Popular Culture article but mostly featuring "Western" tropes of the "Genie in the Bottle". Do you think there should be an article about jinn in Horror Movies? I would suggest that we leave only an outline on jinn in Horror movies, a few references to confirm jinn d feature as a Horror Trope in modern times, and then move most details to the new article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 20:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
What do other editors of this article think about merging parts of theology and exegesis, and folkoric content? Many content is written like a list of depictions of jinn from different sources, but could be changed into one prose text. Similarly, theology and exegesis contain double content such as the position of the Asharis about jinn-possession. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Currently if you look at the main image, it says it is a jinn, which you can tell because, as the caption claims anyway, it has hooves, which is seemingly the only determining factor of whether something is a jinn or not? But if you click on that image, however, it says it is a div. Div are described as having tusks like a boar, which this image does. Divs are not jinn, so one of those pages is clearly incorrect. But the caption says it is a jinn, because hooves! Yet if you click on the red jinn image on the same page, you get a jinn without hooves. Can someone who knows these things do something to fix this? 2601:840:8080:4B10:6D5B:B488:A666:9E21 ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Queso Misterioso ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Queso Misterioso ( talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
@ TheEagle107: here we go again. Please make yourself familar with the discussion and respond o the objection before adding reverted edits over and over again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VenusFeuerFalle ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC) edit dif
@
Skyerise:
I recently
enlarged some images of jinn. These were
mostly reverted by
Skyerise as "
oversized" or because "
only lead image should be manually enlarged". I realize that if Skyrise is opposed to my changes then there is no consensus for them, but for the record they were enlarged because at least on the settings for most laptops or phones they were small, cramped, hard to see. It's not as though space is limited and larger images squeeze out text. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk)
01:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@
VenusFeuerFalle:
I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by
VenusFeuerFalle, who's reverted pretty much every edit I've made to Islamic articles in the last week or so. Below is what happened, and my case against the reverts.
The first (somewhat clumsy) attempt in the lede
VenusFeuerFalle reverted this with the edit summary:
The second attempt was with a much shorter mention in the lede
reverted with the edit summary:
I also added text in the Exegesis section of the article
reverted with the edit summary
reverted with the edit summary:
The one sentence I put in the lede is a summary of the what is in the articles Exegesis section. Jinn are mentioned 29 or so times in the Quran. They have a surah named after them. Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm, Abul A'la Maududi, and others seem to think they are an Islamic concept. They are major figures in Islam.
If a "dude" (
Nasr Abu Zayd) is
threated with death for apostasy (in part) because he didn't believe in jinn (he also didn't believe in slavery),
and if belief in his apostasy in his country (Egypt) is so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him
..... wouldn't this be the very definition of not "petty"!
Another question, Does this text not belong in
Exegesis? (where the issue of belief in jinn being a necessary part of Iman was raised)? OK, but it should be moved, not deleted.
Maududi has been called "the most influential" of the contemporary Islamic revivalist scholars (Hassan, M Kamal (July–October 2003).
"he Influence of Mawdudi's Thought on Muslims in Southeast Asia: A Brief Survey". The Muslim World. 93 (3/4): 429. Retrieved 14 March 2024.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link))
As far as exegesis goes, he is the author of a 6-volume translation and commentary of the Qur'an. Isn't wikipedia supposed to be based on reliable sources and not editor's opinions on who is an "authority"?
What is this text doing in a section on
Exegesis, you might ask. Well, what is discussion of whether the majority of Muslim scholars think "that jinn can possess individuals" doing there? Is that found in tafsir?
I specifically stated "(at least according to Amira El-Zein)". She was the source (she's the author of a book on Jinn), and stated in her book "one can't be a Muslim if he/she doesn't have faith in their [the jinns'] existence because they are mentioned in the Qur'an and the prophetic tradition." I made a point of toning down her contention a bit by saying you can't be a good Muslim, suggesting disbelievers in jinn were being lax rather than apostates. -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions. Descriptions about what is an is not accepted orthodoxy in a religion as widespread and varied as Islam must be very carefully qualified with attribution and consideration to due weight. It appears to me (knowing very little) that Jinn being an "essential" feature of Islam is closer to a fringe view than a mainstream position, so in that sense I lean toward VenusFeuerFalle's positions. If that position is indeed fringe, that doesn't totally rule out including it, but it means the information must be carefully and conservatively presented, and probably doesn't belong in the lede. That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. If my input doesn't help reach a resolution here, I suggest raising this at WikiProject Islam where subject matter experts may be able to weigh in. Cheers - StereoFolic ( talk) 23:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
Thanks for the advise. I prioritize civil language and kind words. However, this specific user appears since about 2 years frequently after I edited an article, makes some rather disruptive edits, and then leaves the article. Some of these disruptions are basic formats such as using ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers. In the beginning I cleaned up after them and kindly reminded them to use the proper formation, did not stoppe after a year. I left some articles completely to them after constant edit warring about nothing without any sign of cooperation, and they left them in a worse state than before and then never touched them again. I hoped that direct speech might be a better way for communication. If this does not work either, I will completely give up on them. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language
The Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmad al-Tayyib said: "It is necessary to believe in the existence of jinn, because they are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an". [5] [6] [7] [8] There are numerous references to jinn in the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad). According to Islamic belief, jinn are real creatures. Characteristics they share with human beings are intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong and between good and bad, but according to the Qur'an [55: 14– 15] their origin is different from that of man.
Al-Tahawi (d. 321/933) said in his celebrated work on the fundamentals of the Islamic creed: "He (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad) has been sent to all of the jinn and the entirety of humanity with truth, guidance, light, and illumination."
The Hanafi scholar Badr al-Din al-Shibli (d. 769/1368) composed a work of 140 chapters on this topic, entitled Ākām al-Marjān fi Aḥkām al-Jānn ( Arabic: آكام المرجان في أحكام الجان), which was summarized by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505). [9] In this work there is a chapter about the existence of jinn and disagreement about them ( here or here). Badr al-Din al-Shibli said that al-Juwayni (Imam al-Haramayn) in his work al-Shamil fi Usul al-Din (The Compendium on the Principles of Religion) said: "Many philosophers, the majority of Qadariyya, and all heretics denied the existence of the shayatin (devils) and jinns.... Al-Baqillani said: Many Qadariyya affirm the existence of jinn in ancient times and deny their existence now... Imam al-Haramayn (i.e. al-Juwayni) said: ...(There is) a consensus of all scholars in the era of the Sahaba and Tabi'een on the existence of jinn and devils..." TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Nünlist-2015
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).