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should we rename this "Jewish collaboration with Nazi Germany"? LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 13:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Also some GENERAL VAGUE/DRAFT section proposals/layout:
LEAD
Section 1 - History subsection 1 - collaborator orgs within Nazi Germany
subsection 2 - discussion of Judenrat system in ghettos
subsection 3 - discussion of Kapos within concentration camps
Section 2 - Consequences for collaborators (aka punishment for collaboration after the fact)
Section 3 - Victims v. perpetrators debate ( https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-08-24/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-crime-collaborating-with-nazis-the-punishment-excommunication-from-judaism/0000017f-e3b7-d7b2-a77f-e3b78f310000). LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 13:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing some context that an expert would be aware of, but the ref that is tagged as failing verification includes a URL to a page that says Gruenbaum was "not the only collaborator". I would consider that verified. Sennalen ( talk) 14:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Do najbardziej niebezpiecznych spośród grasujących w Krakowie agentów Gestapo należał niewątpliwie Józef Diamand. Zadziwiające, że w czasach martyrologii Żydów, gdy ludzie jego krwi potrzebowali silnych i i odważnych, on wlaśnie stanął naprzeciw nim i oddał się hitlerowcom bez reszty. Był najwidoczniej w Gestapo wysoko notowany. Posiadał broń, także poniektórzy z jego siatki byli uzbrojeni. Przydzielono mu tresowanego psa. Działał w klimacie absolutnej bezkarności...which translates to
One of the most dangerous Gestapo agents prowling in Kraków was undoubtedly Józef Diamand. It is amazing that in times of martyrdom of the Jews, when people of his blood needed strong and courageous people, he just stood up against them and gave himself to the Nazis completely. He was apparently highly ranked in the Gestapo. He had guns, and some of his network were also armed. He was assigned a trained dog. He operated in a climate of absolute impunity. The source mentions him later too but I have to work with a snippet view, so it's hard to piece several pages together (Index shows he is mentioned on pages 105-109, 111, 115-116, 185 and 187 of that source.) :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I've WP:BLAR'd this recent spinout pending discussion at the parent article Talk:Collaboration with the Axis powers#BRD fail: moving text here in the absence of discussion about the corresponding section also being blanked as problematic. Let's have one discussion about this content, at Talk:Collaboration with the Axis powers#BRD fail: moving text here in the absence of discussion. Levivich ( talk) 18:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
If we are to define this topic in this way, it seems to me, then we really need to include ALL Jewish collaboration, especially since there is a well-defined parallel problem in the history of the ghetto there in Amsterdam, but the rabbi there refused to cooperate and joined the resistance. The parallel is not exact, in that the records belonged to the synagogue not the government, so destroying records was not in the powers of the Judenrat. It's nonetheless a significant episode that should be discussed, if we are discussing jewish councils.
Alternately this could be titled Jewish Collaboration in Poland with Nazi Germany. I have no opinion on the matter.
But for the record if the idea of these councils was to stall for time and pretend to cooperate while waiting for rescue, this wouldn't make the Judenrat or the Amsterdam Jewish Council all that different from Vichy, where it was foreign Jews vs French prisoners of war, then French Jews, then conscription of other French citizens. The government was collaborative in getting nothing done but finally step by step reached a point it was essentially rubber-stamping press gangs for German war machine forced labor. Belgium and Holland and Denmark are all considered to have collaborated and all of them were still being run by the same civil servants as they had been, which relieved the Nazis of the governance costs they would otherwise have incurred in absorbing so much territory so quickly.
Sorry for the soliloquy. The diehard ideologues and power-hungry are one kind of collatorator and then there are the negotiators and appeasers and then beyond that you come to the people operating in the interest of family or tribe or village or self. So, we have a lot of articles in the category which should ideally come under an article that doesn't exist yet. Then a discussion of appeasement, negotiating, enabling and so on.
It's a thought, anyway. Elinruby ( talk) 20:56, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Jewish Nazis has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 9 § Jewish Nazis until a consensus is reached.
Jay
💬 10:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
"It also relates to collaboration with the current pro-palestine movement, which has show similar points of few and anti jewish sentiment" 2A02:A464:ADFE:1:C5D7:FE8E:9919:FA06 ( talk) 12:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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should we rename this "Jewish collaboration with Nazi Germany"? LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 13:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Also some GENERAL VAGUE/DRAFT section proposals/layout:
LEAD
Section 1 - History subsection 1 - collaborator orgs within Nazi Germany
subsection 2 - discussion of Judenrat system in ghettos
subsection 3 - discussion of Kapos within concentration camps
Section 2 - Consequences for collaborators (aka punishment for collaboration after the fact)
Section 3 - Victims v. perpetrators debate ( https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-08-24/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-crime-collaborating-with-nazis-the-punishment-excommunication-from-judaism/0000017f-e3b7-d7b2-a77f-e3b78f310000). LegalSmeagolian ( talk) 13:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing some context that an expert would be aware of, but the ref that is tagged as failing verification includes a URL to a page that says Gruenbaum was "not the only collaborator". I would consider that verified. Sennalen ( talk) 14:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Do najbardziej niebezpiecznych spośród grasujących w Krakowie agentów Gestapo należał niewątpliwie Józef Diamand. Zadziwiające, że w czasach martyrologii Żydów, gdy ludzie jego krwi potrzebowali silnych i i odważnych, on wlaśnie stanął naprzeciw nim i oddał się hitlerowcom bez reszty. Był najwidoczniej w Gestapo wysoko notowany. Posiadał broń, także poniektórzy z jego siatki byli uzbrojeni. Przydzielono mu tresowanego psa. Działał w klimacie absolutnej bezkarności...which translates to
One of the most dangerous Gestapo agents prowling in Kraków was undoubtedly Józef Diamand. It is amazing that in times of martyrdom of the Jews, when people of his blood needed strong and courageous people, he just stood up against them and gave himself to the Nazis completely. He was apparently highly ranked in the Gestapo. He had guns, and some of his network were also armed. He was assigned a trained dog. He operated in a climate of absolute impunity. The source mentions him later too but I have to work with a snippet view, so it's hard to piece several pages together (Index shows he is mentioned on pages 105-109, 111, 115-116, 185 and 187 of that source.) :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I've WP:BLAR'd this recent spinout pending discussion at the parent article Talk:Collaboration with the Axis powers#BRD fail: moving text here in the absence of discussion about the corresponding section also being blanked as problematic. Let's have one discussion about this content, at Talk:Collaboration with the Axis powers#BRD fail: moving text here in the absence of discussion. Levivich ( talk) 18:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
If we are to define this topic in this way, it seems to me, then we really need to include ALL Jewish collaboration, especially since there is a well-defined parallel problem in the history of the ghetto there in Amsterdam, but the rabbi there refused to cooperate and joined the resistance. The parallel is not exact, in that the records belonged to the synagogue not the government, so destroying records was not in the powers of the Judenrat. It's nonetheless a significant episode that should be discussed, if we are discussing jewish councils.
Alternately this could be titled Jewish Collaboration in Poland with Nazi Germany. I have no opinion on the matter.
But for the record if the idea of these councils was to stall for time and pretend to cooperate while waiting for rescue, this wouldn't make the Judenrat or the Amsterdam Jewish Council all that different from Vichy, where it was foreign Jews vs French prisoners of war, then French Jews, then conscription of other French citizens. The government was collaborative in getting nothing done but finally step by step reached a point it was essentially rubber-stamping press gangs for German war machine forced labor. Belgium and Holland and Denmark are all considered to have collaborated and all of them were still being run by the same civil servants as they had been, which relieved the Nazis of the governance costs they would otherwise have incurred in absorbing so much territory so quickly.
Sorry for the soliloquy. The diehard ideologues and power-hungry are one kind of collatorator and then there are the negotiators and appeasers and then beyond that you come to the people operating in the interest of family or tribe or village or self. So, we have a lot of articles in the category which should ideally come under an article that doesn't exist yet. Then a discussion of appeasement, negotiating, enabling and so on.
It's a thought, anyway. Elinruby ( talk) 20:56, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Jewish Nazis has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 9 § Jewish Nazis until a consensus is reached.
Jay
💬 10:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
"It also relates to collaboration with the current pro-palestine movement, which has show similar points of few and anti jewish sentiment" 2A02:A464:ADFE:1:C5D7:FE8E:9919:FA06 ( talk) 12:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)