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This is clearly a sensitive and contentious topic, but I think this article is too aggressive and unmeasured in its dismissal of this theory as completely delusionally baseless. There are, of course, no academic sources suggesting that Bolshevism was a top-down Jewish conspiracy, and the article shouldn't imply that academics seriously consider that possibility. However, it is a fact that Jews have been incredibly overrepresented in some Western Communist movements and heavily overrepresented in most others. I think the article should present the statistics about Jewish involvement in Communist movements and differentiate ethnic interests and cultural predisposition from conspiracy.
Below is a quote from the introductory essay of Contemporary Voices of White Nationalism, written by two left-leaning academics:
The communism-is-Jewish claim of white nationalists has somewhat more substance behind it than the ludicrous claims made about the Talmud. Karl Marx was, after all, the descendant of a long line of Jewish rabbis (though he harbored a generalized hatred of Jews that was the equal of any Gentile anti-Semite),102 and many of the leaders of the Communist Revolution in Russia, including Leon Trotsky, Karl Radek, Grigori Zinoviev, and Lev Kamenev were Jews, as were many of the Marxist leaders in Germany, Hungary, and several other nations of Europe. The situation was similar in the United States where Jews were vastly overrepresented among the ranks of the American Communist Party and formed the backbone of the communist movement in many strategically key cities including New York, Hollywood, and Los Angeles.103 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, convicted of passing nuclear secrets along to the Russians in the early Cold War years (an action for which they were later executed), were also Jews.
The Jewish penchant for radical left-wing politics in the twentieth century could also be seen in the student rebellions of the late 1960s in a number of countries, including France and the United States. Jews were among many of the top leaders in the 1960s-era New Left movement in America, which became ever more extreme as the sixties progressed, culminating in the apocalyptic terrorism of the Weather Underground. Many American New Left leaders –particularly the Jews –were “red diaper babies” whose parents had been active in the communist and radical socialist movements of the previous generation.104 It is also true, as white nationalists point out, that leftist Jews are currently a powerful presence within many leading universities and law schools in America, and that many top Hollywood producers and directors are Jews, most of whom have a strong affinity for the cultural left.
[removing the remainder to prevent copyright violation]
(Pages 77-80). What do you all think? Franzboas ( talk) 22:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
"her opinion and [not] fact". The book's introductory essay is thoroughly cited academic analysis, not op-ed. In response to your question of whether it has
"attracted attention": she's a widely read academic, the book was published by Cambridge University Press, and it was reviewed (largely positively) by several prestigious academics, so I don't think there's reason to question its notability. Franzboas ( talk) 16:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Could you please read the previous discussions because this is starting to sound like Groundhog Day. All your points have been raised and addressed, and it is a waste of other editors time to raise them again and expect them to present the same replies. TFD ( talk) 05:04, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
"you probably won't persuade editors to say that the Jews are behind the Communist conspiracy or blacks are inferior to whites etc.", but I don't believe those things, and I would hope that my grounded and rigorous approach shows that. My problem is that it's almost impossible to make factuality and POV improvements to these topics on Wikipedia without being attacked and blockaded. Franzboas ( talk) 17:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
"The problem you face is that you disagree with how most reliable sources treat this topic and want to change the article to reflect your view."I don't think that's the case. I'm saying that I think the statistics included in this article were cherry-picked to downplay Jewish involvement in communist movements, and that reliable sources such as The Jewish Century include statistics that demonstrate a much larger presence. Franzboas ( talk) 17:45, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Why? Show me a source that says it is relevant to the subject. TFD ( talk) 00:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
If somebody could find a legitimate source that points out the representation of Jewish people in the Bolshevik party - particularly in their leadership, I believe that would be highly helpful.
Naturally, it cannot be claimed that *all* communist movements had a significant Jewish presence, but the one in Russia undeniably did and I’d imagine that there are numerous sources that confirm this. As such, it’s not wholly an “anti semitic canard” as this article rather misleadingly alleges. TorontonianOnlines ( talk) 01:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Should this article be added? It is on point, written by a world leader and pre dates some of the other work, but it supports the conspiracy theory https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism
Is it better if people don't know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:8400:5790:D1AE:3752:BFC:F7F2 ( talk) 08:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Is it better if people don't know?Knock it off with that, please. People know, because Churchill's essay is already mentioned in the article. If you have a reliable, secondary source for this century-old WP:PRIMARY source, let's see it. Grayfell ( talk) 08:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
@ TorontonianOnlines: "If somebody could find a legitimate source that points out the representation of Jewish people in the Bolshevik party - particularly in their leadership, I believe that would be highly helpful." you wrote, albeit over a year ago now. I've edited in something that was really very easy to establish, believe it or not. Of the 7 members of the first Central Committee of the Bolshevik Revolution, 4 were Jewish. All one has to do to find this out is click on their individual Wiki articles. The 7 members were listed in Kamenev's article (and others) and the list is referenced. Also, the head of the Mensheviks when they split in 1903, Martov, was Jewish. Again, all the info is already in Wiki.
This article we're discussing is overwhelmingly written in a way that seeks to deflect anyone away from thinking that Jewish involvement in the Bolshevik Revlution was anything but minimal. As I've just demonstrated, with referenced information, it was not. To have a Wiki article written in the way it has been is shameful, as it is clearly a misrepresentation of historical and verifiable fact. Further, I have not edited in the fact that Zinoviev (one of the four) actually advocated - and again this is verificable - the annihilation of 10 million Russians> Yes, really, and Trotsky of course wasn't far behind. This is all historical fact, and once again comes straight from another Wikipedia article, Red Terror (see the last quote in its Purpose section). Please ping me if/when replying. Thanks. This may also be of interest to you, @ Franzboas: Again, please ping me if/when replying. Thanks. Boscaswell talk 12:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Please don't leave out Jewish sources which claim the same thing, for example:
“The Bolshevist revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental and physical forces, become a reality all over the world.” The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920
“Some call it Marxism, I call it Judaism.” Rabbi Stephen Wise, The American Bulletin, May 5,1935
“The revolution in Russia is a Jewish revolution” The Maccabean (New York), Nov. 1905, p, 250
“Judaism is Marxism, communism” Harry Waton, A Program for the Jews and an Answer to All Anti-Semites (New York: Committee for the Preservation of the Jews, 1939), p. 64 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.124.166.216 ( talk) 04:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I am reversing an edit that an editor recently made to this article. [2] The edit adds information about the involvement of Jews in Bolshevism. There have been previous discussions of this issue and we cannot add material that we think explains the Jewish Bolshevism theory except if that material is taken from sources specifically about the Jewish Bolshevism conspiracy theory.The relevance of material to any topic can only be determined by the significance assigned to it in reliable sources. TFD ( talk) 05:53, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
The same editor has reverted my edit with the note, "why remove changes added on 05:42, 31 October 2019 " The other material I removed was taken from an article by Steven J. Zipperstein, "On Jews and Communism", in which he says that the number of Jewish Communists was always small except for a brief period in Russia. "The belief that a penchant for both communism and, for that matter, capitalism is somehow intrinsic to Jews — these patently contradictory but sharing, as some continue to insist, reliance on a conspiratorial intelligence and on forces hidden from view — remains a stubborn fixture of contemporary life."
Yet the material presented in their edit suggests the opposite. In any case, similar to the other material I removed, we cannot add evidence for or against the conspiracy theory without relating it to what the sources say about it.
TFD ( talk) 16:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Upon reading this page it is not and article nor educational but is uninformative and even propaganda. I'm both German and Jewish and facts and knowledge speak for themselves. This piece states some articles as propaganda and states others as fact, over and over any cited articles of one opinion is stated as propaganda and the opposite as fact-THIS IS NOT JOURNALISM NOR EDUCATIONAL, simply state all printed materials as written and let readers decide for themselves what is true. Was Bolshevism Jewish in part or totally or not at all? truth is for readers not writers to determine which can not happen with such and opinionated writing. On a moral and a knowledge basis we can easily understand their are good, bad, confused and grey actions of all races, religions and peoples and to say any is purely right or wrong or to instantly assume one is correct or another is above crimes, evil and moral indecency is of total abandonment of wisdom itself. while antisemitic ideas are a serious problem, so to is semitic deifying where any information involving semitic people in a negative roll or behavior is automatically cast as wrong. As a Jew and a human I can factually tell you-some jews are criminals, some are evil minded and some do bad things as is true with all peoples of earth-ACCEPT it. I am not here for all that though, I am here simply to state-rewrite this article and keeping all cited material but drop any opinion of it as propaganda or fact and rewrite any portion that puts forth the writers ideas and feeling to be factual and not emotional.Thank you for your time -JR. Reider — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ox1111 ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
It's funny how this article tries to justify the participation of Jews in revolutionary organizations by their "oppression" in the Russian Empire. Apparently, the author forgot where the Prussian Jew Karl Marx was born and lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Александр Ашкаров ( talk • contribs) 06:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
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"Overrepresentation of a group in a political movement does not prove either that the movement was 'dominated' by that group or that it primarily serves that group's interests" Imagine if this were applied consistently by academics to White Evangelicals and the Trump movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.96.126.219 ( talk • contribs) 10:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
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No justifications for two separate articles, it appears Zydokomuna is simply the antisemitic Polish term for Jewish Bolshevism. After all, Zydokomuna is even mentioned in the lede here. A merge would actually cause readers of both articles to be given more information, and the subject would be treated more comprehensively. It would also be in keeping with WP:NPOV / neutral world view, rather than having an article on Polish inside baseball. If editors here agree, let's make the change. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 06:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
TFD, thanks for the input. I now see your wise point that per WP:SPLIT, size matters. For a little Covid lockdown levity, I have a lighthearted question for you. If we had an article on Cheese and another on Fromage covering French cheese that is much longer, what would we do? Wouldn't we merge the two and do the reverse of splitting, i.e. pare down the overly long section, per WP:LENGTH? Because I think what may have happened with the vast majority of readers is that because they have never heard of Zydokomuna they assume it is a distinct subject, while most would know that Fromage is not. We actually do have a List of French cheeses so by that token maybe this title would be better rendered as 'Jewish Bolshevism' in Poland ? (We have a precedent of using shock quotes in titles of misnomers.) - Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 16:35, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
In the introduction, I believe there are two misspellings:
1. tem -> term: In Poland, the tem "Żydokomuna"....
2. disproportinally -> disproportionately: ...that the Jews had a disproportinally high influence....
Metamusing ( talk) 21:20, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Suggested edit ... The first Politburo had seven members, five were Jews, Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, Sokolnikov
The first politburo was created in Russia by the Bolshevik Party in 1917 to provide strong and continuous leadership during the Russian Revolution occurring during the same year.[2][3] The first Politburo had seven members: Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, Stalin, Sokolnikov, and Bubnov.[4]
/info/en/?search=Politburo#History
/info/en/?search=Vladimir_Lenin
/info/en/?search=Grigory_Zinoviev
/info/en/?search=Grigori_Sokolnikov
Communism killed an estimated 100 million people worldwide, dwarfing the Holocaust and all other genocides combined.
/info/en/?search=List_of_genocides_by_death_toll
SteveBenassi ( talk) 14:18, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
https://www.jpost.com/magazine/was-the-russian-revolution-jewish-514323
"A hundred years after the Bolsheviks swept to power, historians and contemporaries still struggle to understand the prominent role played by Jews."
https://yivo.org/1917Conference
"The two defining moments of the last century were, arguably, the Holocaust and the Russian Revolution. The tragic role of Jews in the former is self-evident; their prominent – if also profoundly paradoxical – role in the latter is the subject of our path-breaking YIVO conference."
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
"Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century"
"In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin."
SteveBenassi ( talk) 23:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
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Revise your Propaganda page to reflect declassified US Intelligence analysis.. Original images and files are still available through the DOD, and will be re-uploaded no matter how many times they are removed.
"It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United, States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type, who have been in the United States and there absorbed every one of the worst phases of our civilization without having the least understanding of what we really mean by liberty. (I do not mean the use of the word liberty which has been so widespread in the United States since the war began, but the real word spelt the same way), and the real Russian realizes this and suspects that Americans think as do the loathsome specimens with whom he now comes in contact. I have heard all sorts of estimates as to the real proportion of Bolsheviks to that of the population of Siberia and I think the most accurate is that of General Ivanov-Rinov who estimates it as two per cent. There is hardly a peasant this side of the Urals who has the slightest interest in the Bolshevik or his doings except in so far as it concerns the loss of his own property and, in fact, his point of view is very much like that of our own respectable farmers, when confronted with the I [?] ideal."
"It is very largely our fault that Bolshevism has spread as it has and I do not believe we will be found guiltless of the thousands of lives uselessly and cruelly sacrificed in wild orgies of bloodshed to establish an autocratic and despotic rule of principles which have been rejected by every generation of mankind which has dabbled with them."
"384 commissars there were 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government." --Captain Montgomery Schuyler, American Expeditionary Forces Siberia 1919, Intelligence Section / Declassified DOD Dir. 5200.9 Sept 27 1958 LeelooDallas007 ( talk) 08:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Collapse suggested edit discussion opened by now blocked editor. TFD ( talk) 15:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC) |
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Serious studies must be included specially from pro-semite sourceOne example of a pro-semite work regarding the actual study and facts from the era Herman Fehst professor at Germany Academy of Political Science admitted the majority of Jews before the Russian Revolution were influenced by jewish nationalism rather than Bolshevism
[2] JNSIIT ( talk) 01:14, 22 November 2021 (UTC) References
Verifiability issues with new edits[3] The lead must follow the body, and the body cites verifiable sources that contradict the claims you make that Jews dominated among the Bolsheviks. Furthermore, this article is about the conspiracy theory/canard and not about Jewish Communists. If you want to make any edits to the article, you must cite a verifiable source. Citing an entire book is not verifiable; you must provide a page number and preferably provide a quote so that other editors can verify that the source supports the claims made. ( t · c) buidhe 09:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC) InaccuracyThe conspiracy is about the motives of Jewish communists, not about the ethnic makeup itself. There is no point to practice Jewish erasure here. And the lead that I propose does not contradict the rest of the article at all. At this moment, this article is a gross misrepresentation. The antisemitic conspiracy theory is about the Jewish members of the Bolshevik Party forming a (Jewish) conspiration—an old trope. The fact of Jews being overrepresented in the Bolshevik Party is a fact, not the conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory pertains to the motives, not the ethnic makeup. 5 out of 21 members of the Central Committee being Jewish is 24%, and that counts as a high proportion compared to the overall proportion of 4% of Jews in the general population (Russian census of 1897). LordParsifal ( talk) 10:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
The edit did not contain the word majority. Just "a high proportion" LordParsifal ( talk) 11:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
What the original edit says is irrelevant, since I corrected it and adjusted it myself. At this point you're just beating a dead horse, buidhe. Which is fair but not the point of the discussion. Let's stay on topic and discuss the essence of the conspiracy theory. Is the conspiracy theory about there merely being a high proportion of Jews within the leadership (compared to the general population), or about the old trope of "Jews working together to disrupt?" As it stands right now the lead is unsourced, and my lead WAS sourced. Awesome standards. LordParsifal ( talk) 02:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Jews in the Cheka/OGPU/NKVDCould someone with editing abilities please add a few lines about Jewish representation in soviet security organs (noting regional variations), public perceptions of Jewish representation, and the reasons why it existed and later declined. I think its important to note if you want to understand popular antisemitism in parts of eastern Europe (Ukraine pogroms especially). The following source contains a write up beginning on page 106. If you don't have access to JSTOR I've also linked the FSB website. Alternatively, I'd be happy to give it a write up if someone can give me editing privileges, honestly there's enough material out there for an article of its own. HaileJones ( talk) 03:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC) Budnitskii, Oleg, and Timothy J. Portice. “The Bolsheviks and the Jews.” Russian Jews Between the Reds and the Whites, 1917-1920, University of Pennsylvania Press, 2012, pp. 69–122. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt3fhk16.7. Accessed 6 Jul. 2022. https://web.archive.org/web/20040216032404/http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html I'm...Not sure if I should add a Romania sectionThere's plenty of RS about the role of Jews in the Communization of Romania after WW2. Ana Pauker straight up led the Communist Party from October 1944 to October 1945. Mihai Roller and Alexandru Nicolschi also had prominent roles. I can't say I've really studied the Russian Revolution, but at least in Romania's case, it doesn't seem like that much of a canard/conspiracy theory. That's not to say that said Jews themselves weren't aware of the awkward optics. Ana Pauker went as far as to let many former members of the Iron Guard into the Party in order to disprove its perceived Jewish domination. Roller refused to promote Jews who died for the Romanian Communist Party. This is about the gist of it, not sure if I should add a Romania section. Especially as the article goes right out of the gate to stress that this is a conspiracy theory/canard, whilst in Romania's case it doesn't much seem like it. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 16:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
This is clearly a sensitive and contentious topic, but I think this article is too aggressive and unmeasured in its dismissal of this theory as completely delusionally baseless. There are, of course, no academic sources suggesting that Bolshevism was a top-down Jewish conspiracy, and the article shouldn't imply that academics seriously consider that possibility. However, it is a fact that Jews have been incredibly overrepresented in some Western Communist movements and heavily overrepresented in most others. I think the article should present the statistics about Jewish involvement in Communist movements and differentiate ethnic interests and cultural predisposition from conspiracy.
Below is a quote from the introductory essay of Contemporary Voices of White Nationalism, written by two left-leaning academics:
The communism-is-Jewish claim of white nationalists has somewhat more substance behind it than the ludicrous claims made about the Talmud. Karl Marx was, after all, the descendant of a long line of Jewish rabbis (though he harbored a generalized hatred of Jews that was the equal of any Gentile anti-Semite),102 and many of the leaders of the Communist Revolution in Russia, including Leon Trotsky, Karl Radek, Grigori Zinoviev, and Lev Kamenev were Jews, as were many of the Marxist leaders in Germany, Hungary, and several other nations of Europe. The situation was similar in the United States where Jews were vastly overrepresented among the ranks of the American Communist Party and formed the backbone of the communist movement in many strategically key cities including New York, Hollywood, and Los Angeles.103 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, convicted of passing nuclear secrets along to the Russians in the early Cold War years (an action for which they were later executed), were also Jews.
The Jewish penchant for radical left-wing politics in the twentieth century could also be seen in the student rebellions of the late 1960s in a number of countries, including France and the United States. Jews were among many of the top leaders in the 1960s-era New Left movement in America, which became ever more extreme as the sixties progressed, culminating in the apocalyptic terrorism of the Weather Underground. Many American New Left leaders –particularly the Jews –were “red diaper babies” whose parents had been active in the communist and radical socialist movements of the previous generation.104 It is also true, as white nationalists point out, that leftist Jews are currently a powerful presence within many leading universities and law schools in America, and that many top Hollywood producers and directors are Jews, most of whom have a strong affinity for the cultural left.
[removing the remainder to prevent copyright violation]
(Pages 77-80). What do you all think? Franzboas ( talk) 22:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
"her opinion and [not] fact". The book's introductory essay is thoroughly cited academic analysis, not op-ed. In response to your question of whether it has
"attracted attention": she's a widely read academic, the book was published by Cambridge University Press, and it was reviewed (largely positively) by several prestigious academics, so I don't think there's reason to question its notability. Franzboas ( talk) 16:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Could you please read the previous discussions because this is starting to sound like Groundhog Day. All your points have been raised and addressed, and it is a waste of other editors time to raise them again and expect them to present the same replies. TFD ( talk) 05:04, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
"you probably won't persuade editors to say that the Jews are behind the Communist conspiracy or blacks are inferior to whites etc.", but I don't believe those things, and I would hope that my grounded and rigorous approach shows that. My problem is that it's almost impossible to make factuality and POV improvements to these topics on Wikipedia without being attacked and blockaded. Franzboas ( talk) 17:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
"The problem you face is that you disagree with how most reliable sources treat this topic and want to change the article to reflect your view."I don't think that's the case. I'm saying that I think the statistics included in this article were cherry-picked to downplay Jewish involvement in communist movements, and that reliable sources such as The Jewish Century include statistics that demonstrate a much larger presence. Franzboas ( talk) 17:45, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Why? Show me a source that says it is relevant to the subject. TFD ( talk) 00:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
If somebody could find a legitimate source that points out the representation of Jewish people in the Bolshevik party - particularly in their leadership, I believe that would be highly helpful.
Naturally, it cannot be claimed that *all* communist movements had a significant Jewish presence, but the one in Russia undeniably did and I’d imagine that there are numerous sources that confirm this. As such, it’s not wholly an “anti semitic canard” as this article rather misleadingly alleges. TorontonianOnlines ( talk) 01:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Should this article be added? It is on point, written by a world leader and pre dates some of the other work, but it supports the conspiracy theory https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism
Is it better if people don't know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:8400:5790:D1AE:3752:BFC:F7F2 ( talk) 08:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Is it better if people don't know?Knock it off with that, please. People know, because Churchill's essay is already mentioned in the article. If you have a reliable, secondary source for this century-old WP:PRIMARY source, let's see it. Grayfell ( talk) 08:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
@ TorontonianOnlines: "If somebody could find a legitimate source that points out the representation of Jewish people in the Bolshevik party - particularly in their leadership, I believe that would be highly helpful." you wrote, albeit over a year ago now. I've edited in something that was really very easy to establish, believe it or not. Of the 7 members of the first Central Committee of the Bolshevik Revolution, 4 were Jewish. All one has to do to find this out is click on their individual Wiki articles. The 7 members were listed in Kamenev's article (and others) and the list is referenced. Also, the head of the Mensheviks when they split in 1903, Martov, was Jewish. Again, all the info is already in Wiki.
This article we're discussing is overwhelmingly written in a way that seeks to deflect anyone away from thinking that Jewish involvement in the Bolshevik Revlution was anything but minimal. As I've just demonstrated, with referenced information, it was not. To have a Wiki article written in the way it has been is shameful, as it is clearly a misrepresentation of historical and verifiable fact. Further, I have not edited in the fact that Zinoviev (one of the four) actually advocated - and again this is verificable - the annihilation of 10 million Russians> Yes, really, and Trotsky of course wasn't far behind. This is all historical fact, and once again comes straight from another Wikipedia article, Red Terror (see the last quote in its Purpose section). Please ping me if/when replying. Thanks. This may also be of interest to you, @ Franzboas: Again, please ping me if/when replying. Thanks. Boscaswell talk 12:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Please don't leave out Jewish sources which claim the same thing, for example:
“The Bolshevist revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental and physical forces, become a reality all over the world.” The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920
“Some call it Marxism, I call it Judaism.” Rabbi Stephen Wise, The American Bulletin, May 5,1935
“The revolution in Russia is a Jewish revolution” The Maccabean (New York), Nov. 1905, p, 250
“Judaism is Marxism, communism” Harry Waton, A Program for the Jews and an Answer to All Anti-Semites (New York: Committee for the Preservation of the Jews, 1939), p. 64 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.124.166.216 ( talk) 04:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I am reversing an edit that an editor recently made to this article. [2] The edit adds information about the involvement of Jews in Bolshevism. There have been previous discussions of this issue and we cannot add material that we think explains the Jewish Bolshevism theory except if that material is taken from sources specifically about the Jewish Bolshevism conspiracy theory.The relevance of material to any topic can only be determined by the significance assigned to it in reliable sources. TFD ( talk) 05:53, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
The same editor has reverted my edit with the note, "why remove changes added on 05:42, 31 October 2019 " The other material I removed was taken from an article by Steven J. Zipperstein, "On Jews and Communism", in which he says that the number of Jewish Communists was always small except for a brief period in Russia. "The belief that a penchant for both communism and, for that matter, capitalism is somehow intrinsic to Jews — these patently contradictory but sharing, as some continue to insist, reliance on a conspiratorial intelligence and on forces hidden from view — remains a stubborn fixture of contemporary life."
Yet the material presented in their edit suggests the opposite. In any case, similar to the other material I removed, we cannot add evidence for or against the conspiracy theory without relating it to what the sources say about it.
TFD ( talk) 16:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Upon reading this page it is not and article nor educational but is uninformative and even propaganda. I'm both German and Jewish and facts and knowledge speak for themselves. This piece states some articles as propaganda and states others as fact, over and over any cited articles of one opinion is stated as propaganda and the opposite as fact-THIS IS NOT JOURNALISM NOR EDUCATIONAL, simply state all printed materials as written and let readers decide for themselves what is true. Was Bolshevism Jewish in part or totally or not at all? truth is for readers not writers to determine which can not happen with such and opinionated writing. On a moral and a knowledge basis we can easily understand their are good, bad, confused and grey actions of all races, religions and peoples and to say any is purely right or wrong or to instantly assume one is correct or another is above crimes, evil and moral indecency is of total abandonment of wisdom itself. while antisemitic ideas are a serious problem, so to is semitic deifying where any information involving semitic people in a negative roll or behavior is automatically cast as wrong. As a Jew and a human I can factually tell you-some jews are criminals, some are evil minded and some do bad things as is true with all peoples of earth-ACCEPT it. I am not here for all that though, I am here simply to state-rewrite this article and keeping all cited material but drop any opinion of it as propaganda or fact and rewrite any portion that puts forth the writers ideas and feeling to be factual and not emotional.Thank you for your time -JR. Reider — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ox1111 ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
It's funny how this article tries to justify the participation of Jews in revolutionary organizations by their "oppression" in the Russian Empire. Apparently, the author forgot where the Prussian Jew Karl Marx was born and lived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Александр Ашкаров ( talk • contribs) 06:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
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"Overrepresentation of a group in a political movement does not prove either that the movement was 'dominated' by that group or that it primarily serves that group's interests" Imagine if this were applied consistently by academics to White Evangelicals and the Trump movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.96.126.219 ( talk • contribs) 10:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
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No justifications for two separate articles, it appears Zydokomuna is simply the antisemitic Polish term for Jewish Bolshevism. After all, Zydokomuna is even mentioned in the lede here. A merge would actually cause readers of both articles to be given more information, and the subject would be treated more comprehensively. It would also be in keeping with WP:NPOV / neutral world view, rather than having an article on Polish inside baseball. If editors here agree, let's make the change. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 06:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
TFD, thanks for the input. I now see your wise point that per WP:SPLIT, size matters. For a little Covid lockdown levity, I have a lighthearted question for you. If we had an article on Cheese and another on Fromage covering French cheese that is much longer, what would we do? Wouldn't we merge the two and do the reverse of splitting, i.e. pare down the overly long section, per WP:LENGTH? Because I think what may have happened with the vast majority of readers is that because they have never heard of Zydokomuna they assume it is a distinct subject, while most would know that Fromage is not. We actually do have a List of French cheeses so by that token maybe this title would be better rendered as 'Jewish Bolshevism' in Poland ? (We have a precedent of using shock quotes in titles of misnomers.) - Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 16:35, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
In the introduction, I believe there are two misspellings:
1. tem -> term: In Poland, the tem "Żydokomuna"....
2. disproportinally -> disproportionately: ...that the Jews had a disproportinally high influence....
Metamusing ( talk) 21:20, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Suggested edit ... The first Politburo had seven members, five were Jews, Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, Sokolnikov
The first politburo was created in Russia by the Bolshevik Party in 1917 to provide strong and continuous leadership during the Russian Revolution occurring during the same year.[2][3] The first Politburo had seven members: Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, Stalin, Sokolnikov, and Bubnov.[4]
/info/en/?search=Politburo#History
/info/en/?search=Vladimir_Lenin
/info/en/?search=Grigory_Zinoviev
/info/en/?search=Grigori_Sokolnikov
Communism killed an estimated 100 million people worldwide, dwarfing the Holocaust and all other genocides combined.
/info/en/?search=List_of_genocides_by_death_toll
SteveBenassi ( talk) 14:18, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
https://www.jpost.com/magazine/was-the-russian-revolution-jewish-514323
"A hundred years after the Bolsheviks swept to power, historians and contemporaries still struggle to understand the prominent role played by Jews."
https://yivo.org/1917Conference
"The two defining moments of the last century were, arguably, the Holocaust and the Russian Revolution. The tragic role of Jews in the former is self-evident; their prominent – if also profoundly paradoxical – role in the latter is the subject of our path-breaking YIVO conference."
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
"Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century"
"In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin."
SteveBenassi ( talk) 23:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
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Revise your Propaganda page to reflect declassified US Intelligence analysis.. Original images and files are still available through the DOD, and will be re-uploaded no matter how many times they are removed.
"It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United, States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type, who have been in the United States and there absorbed every one of the worst phases of our civilization without having the least understanding of what we really mean by liberty. (I do not mean the use of the word liberty which has been so widespread in the United States since the war began, but the real word spelt the same way), and the real Russian realizes this and suspects that Americans think as do the loathsome specimens with whom he now comes in contact. I have heard all sorts of estimates as to the real proportion of Bolsheviks to that of the population of Siberia and I think the most accurate is that of General Ivanov-Rinov who estimates it as two per cent. There is hardly a peasant this side of the Urals who has the slightest interest in the Bolshevik or his doings except in so far as it concerns the loss of his own property and, in fact, his point of view is very much like that of our own respectable farmers, when confronted with the I [?] ideal."
"It is very largely our fault that Bolshevism has spread as it has and I do not believe we will be found guiltless of the thousands of lives uselessly and cruelly sacrificed in wild orgies of bloodshed to establish an autocratic and despotic rule of principles which have been rejected by every generation of mankind which has dabbled with them."
"384 commissars there were 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government." --Captain Montgomery Schuyler, American Expeditionary Forces Siberia 1919, Intelligence Section / Declassified DOD Dir. 5200.9 Sept 27 1958 LeelooDallas007 ( talk) 08:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Collapse suggested edit discussion opened by now blocked editor. TFD ( talk) 15:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Serious studies must be included specially from pro-semite sourceOne example of a pro-semite work regarding the actual study and facts from the era Herman Fehst professor at Germany Academy of Political Science admitted the majority of Jews before the Russian Revolution were influenced by jewish nationalism rather than Bolshevism
[2] JNSIIT ( talk) 01:14, 22 November 2021 (UTC) References
Verifiability issues with new edits[3] The lead must follow the body, and the body cites verifiable sources that contradict the claims you make that Jews dominated among the Bolsheviks. Furthermore, this article is about the conspiracy theory/canard and not about Jewish Communists. If you want to make any edits to the article, you must cite a verifiable source. Citing an entire book is not verifiable; you must provide a page number and preferably provide a quote so that other editors can verify that the source supports the claims made. ( t · c) buidhe 09:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC) InaccuracyThe conspiracy is about the motives of Jewish communists, not about the ethnic makeup itself. There is no point to practice Jewish erasure here. And the lead that I propose does not contradict the rest of the article at all. At this moment, this article is a gross misrepresentation. The antisemitic conspiracy theory is about the Jewish members of the Bolshevik Party forming a (Jewish) conspiration—an old trope. The fact of Jews being overrepresented in the Bolshevik Party is a fact, not the conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory pertains to the motives, not the ethnic makeup. 5 out of 21 members of the Central Committee being Jewish is 24%, and that counts as a high proportion compared to the overall proportion of 4% of Jews in the general population (Russian census of 1897). LordParsifal ( talk) 10:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
The edit did not contain the word majority. Just "a high proportion" LordParsifal ( talk) 11:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
What the original edit says is irrelevant, since I corrected it and adjusted it myself. At this point you're just beating a dead horse, buidhe. Which is fair but not the point of the discussion. Let's stay on topic and discuss the essence of the conspiracy theory. Is the conspiracy theory about there merely being a high proportion of Jews within the leadership (compared to the general population), or about the old trope of "Jews working together to disrupt?" As it stands right now the lead is unsourced, and my lead WAS sourced. Awesome standards. LordParsifal ( talk) 02:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Jews in the Cheka/OGPU/NKVDCould someone with editing abilities please add a few lines about Jewish representation in soviet security organs (noting regional variations), public perceptions of Jewish representation, and the reasons why it existed and later declined. I think its important to note if you want to understand popular antisemitism in parts of eastern Europe (Ukraine pogroms especially). The following source contains a write up beginning on page 106. If you don't have access to JSTOR I've also linked the FSB website. Alternatively, I'd be happy to give it a write up if someone can give me editing privileges, honestly there's enough material out there for an article of its own. HaileJones ( talk) 03:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC) Budnitskii, Oleg, and Timothy J. Portice. “The Bolsheviks and the Jews.” Russian Jews Between the Reds and the Whites, 1917-1920, University of Pennsylvania Press, 2012, pp. 69–122. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt3fhk16.7. Accessed 6 Jul. 2022. https://web.archive.org/web/20040216032404/http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html I'm...Not sure if I should add a Romania sectionThere's plenty of RS about the role of Jews in the Communization of Romania after WW2. Ana Pauker straight up led the Communist Party from October 1944 to October 1945. Mihai Roller and Alexandru Nicolschi also had prominent roles. I can't say I've really studied the Russian Revolution, but at least in Romania's case, it doesn't seem like that much of a canard/conspiracy theory. That's not to say that said Jews themselves weren't aware of the awkward optics. Ana Pauker went as far as to let many former members of the Iron Guard into the Party in order to disprove its perceived Jewish domination. Roller refused to promote Jews who died for the Romanian Communist Party. This is about the gist of it, not sure if I should add a Romania section. Especially as the article goes right out of the gate to stress that this is a conspiracy theory/canard, whilst in Romania's case it doesn't much seem like it. Transylvania1916 ( talk) 16:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
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