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Stachura took exception to their letter. History declined to publish his reply; instead, it was posted on the website of Glaukopis, a right-wing Polish journal. [1]Stachura, Peter (6 February 2008). "Jedwabne: A reply to Antony Polonsky & Joanna Michlic" (PDF). Glaukopis. Archived from the original (PDF) on 10 May 2017.
References
Glaukopis is a problematic publication, whose web site moreover only hosts the letter, after History declined to publish it. Finding this statement to be undue, I suggest it be removed. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 10:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
After I removed Glaukopis per above, having seen it is associated with anti-semitism, now I see more discussion is needed about the lede. This once-volatile article has just had it's longest period of stability for ages, lasting for many months of peace and WP:CONS. But looking at the lede after this recent round of good faith edits [2] the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER looks like a return to impassioned editorializing. Edit summary shows this is possibly a result of an honest misperception of bad faith in our article: "The selective quotation of an extract from Gross fundamentally distorts the main point of his book - to draw attention to the co-responsibility of sectors of the Polish population in the Holocaust." That's going too far about the use of a verifiable quote. In fact, it's partly there because anti-semitic Polish nationalists falsely accuse Gross of having an unbalanced approach to Polish responsibility in the Jedwabne pogrom; contrary to what the anti-semites say, it's verifiable in Gross's text that he's very balanced in terms of the Polish and German joint roles, particularly with reference to the Polish murderers' pre-massacre conference with the German "Gestapo" and the 'order' to carry it out, and that in no way undermines the fact that the Polish murderers carried out the murders of their own free will. This article says the Polish murderers of Jews cooperated with the Germans; it does not say they were coerced, indeed I have removed that exact WP:OR in the past. Thoughts? Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER, but the "however" was already there in the source, and omitting it distorts Gross's findings. Gross says
Gross's point is quite clear: the Germans could have prevented the pogrom, and they didn't, they were the necessary condition and triggering factor of the pogrom; however, the pogrom was carried out by the Poles on their own initiative:Now, let us understand the broader context in which the murders took place. At the time the overall undisputed bosses over life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. No sustained organized activity could take place there without their consent.13 They were the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews. It was within their power also to stop the murderous pogrom at any time. And they did not choose to intervene. If they suggested that some Jewish families be spared, they must have done so without serious conviction, for all the Jews on whom the murderers lay their hands were killed in the end. And, ironically, on that day the outpost of the German gendarmerie was the safest place in town for the Jews, and a few survived only because they happened to be there at the time. But it is also clear that had Jedwabne not been occupied by the Germans, the Jews of Jedwabne would not have been murdered by their neighbors. This is not a gratuitous observation—the tragedy of Jedwabne Jewry is but an episode in the murderous war that Hitler waged against all Jews. As to the Germans’ direct participation in the mass murder of Jews in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941, however, one must admit that it was limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures
the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will(p. 133). We shouldn't misrepresent the main thesis of the book by including in the lead only that
According to historian Jan T. Gross, "the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans," who were "the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews."This is also contrary to WP:MOS, since the body of the article reports that
While Gross recognized that no "sustained organizing activity" could have taken place without the Germans' consent, he concluded that the massacre had been carried out entirely by Poles(section Jan T. Gross's Neighbors, 2000).
Where the initiative came from [whether from the Germans or Poles] is impossible to settle once and for all. But it is also an academic question, since both sides apparently quickly agreed on the matter, and on the method of its implementation. However, you are using "original research" in a way that has no basis in policy: WP:OR applies to the content of WP articles, not to the arguments exchanged by editors in talk page discussion, and both in the text I published [3] and in the talk page discussion (here above) the quotations from Gross were accurate, namely: Germans' direct participation in the massacre was
limited, pretty much, to their taking picturesand
the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 13:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
...their direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures" [1] and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will". [2]
References
- ^ Gross 2001, p. 78 .
- ^ Gross 2001, p. 133 ; italics by the author; ivi, p. 138: "It is simply not true that Jews were murdered in Poland during the war solely by the Germans, occasionally assisted in the execution of their gruesome task by some auxiliary police formations composed primarily of Latvians, Ukrainians, or some other ' Kalmuks'...".
inadvertently. These references were supporting/strengthening the claim
the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. If that sentence is removed, those references are no longer needed. At most, they should be placed somewhere in the article body rather than the lead.
the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans) is still included, but is supplemented by other quotes from Gross so as not to distort his findings. Would you be OK with that drafting of the lead? Or do you want to have that the undisputed bosses were the Germans and stop - no mention of local popolation acting of their own free will? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
The same Gross quote under discussion above is supporting the infobox statement:
At least 40 ethnic Poles in cooperation with German military police [1] [2]
References
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Ignatiew 2002
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ Gross 2001, pp. 76–78 "There was an outpost of German gendarmerie in Jedwabne, staffed by eleven men. We can also infer from various sources that a group of Gestapo men arrived in town by taxi either on that day or the previous one." [...] "At the time the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. No sustained organized activity could take place there without their consent. They were the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews."
This quote from Gross was removed in this edit: [10], because (as I understand it) it was lacking the follow-up of "their [German's] direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures".... and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will."
I find the statement to be lacking nuance, being in the infobox, and it perhaps leaves the impression that the Germans may have played a more active role ("cooperation") than the current research suggests. Suggest "... in cooperation with" be removed from the infobox. "German incitement" is mentioned under the Motive parameter in the infobox and this is sufficient. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
@ K.e.coffman: Thank you. Apart from the Polish nationalist minority of sources that we ignore, all mainstream sources including Gross concur that Poles carried out the massacre in cooperation with German personnel. That refers to the well-documented meeting between the Polish ringleaders and German personnel right before the massacre took place, as well as the control of the town by German personnel at the time of the massacre. It's unambiguously a case of direct Polish collaboration with the Nazis.
So that we're all on the same page, let's ensure we're all familiar with this current research, and which sources we are referring to beyond Gross 2001. Because it's important to note at over the past 22 years the academic consensus has corrected parts of his generally excellent first-mover work. Initially, that was followed by an official murder investigation by the prosecutor Ignatiew which concluded in 2002. This was praised by Gross, it entailed far more witness testimony and documentation than Gross had, as well as a forensic excavation of the the massacre site to test the Gross hypotheses.
After the investigation, literally hundreds of secondary sources on Jedwabne were informed by it, a good indication of which is our reference, Stola 2003, which directly revises specific details in Gross, including that hypothesis around the taking of photographs. Stola himself has been in trouble with Poland's current nationalist government, because during his excellent leadership of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews the institution pointed out anti-Semitism among the pro-government media. I invite familiarization with Stola 2003 as it's right there for download through our article. Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 04:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
We have now in the lead "At least 340 men, women and children were murdered, some 300 of whom were locked in a barn and burned alive". On this, we are relying on the findings of the IPN investigation (Ignatiew 2002, 2003). However, Stola 2003 says estimates vary from 300 to 1,600
; he also says that estimates ranging from 400-800 seem much more plausible than those above 1,000
. The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, vol. 2, part A, 2012, p. 900, reports the following:
Some set the number of victims at 2,000, including 230 Wizna Jews, and others at 1,400, including refugees from Wizna and Radziłów. Until recently, the most widely accepted death toll was 1,600, likely drawn from the testimony of Szmul Wasersztejn.7 However, the Soviet population figures and an incomplete and controversial forensic investigation in 2002, which estimated 300 to 400 people perished in the barn, have led some to argue the fire claimed fewer lives. The number of survivors also varies, with Rywka Fogiel (Rivka Fogel) remembering 125 and Menachem Finkelsztejn, a Radziłów survivor, mentioning 302
On the basis of these sources, I suggest adopting Stola's non-committal formulation about estimates ranging btw 300 and 1600 and possibly providing more information on the number of victims in the article body. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 10:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
My gut is that the individual names of those who retracted their confessions is WP:UNDUE. However, I don't feel terribly strongly about it, and idk how to handle the related citation, so I'm not going to be WP:BOLD and delete it. One option might be to say that "at least nine people retracted . . ." as there are nine names on the list. Adoring nanny ( talk) 03:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not 100% up on British English. I would have said "burned alive". But I'm not British. Adoring nanny ( talk) 04:27, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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Change: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
To: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
Also: Podlaskie region should redirect to "Podlaskie voivodeship" not "podlachia". LEJ PO ŁYMPIE ( talk) 02:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
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After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
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After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement. LEJ PO ŁYMPIE ( talk) 12:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (22 September 2019): "The sourcing expectations applied to the article Collaboration in German-occupied Poland are expanded and adapted to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals, academically focused books by reputable publishers, and/or articles published by reputable institutions. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Editors repeatedly failing to meet this standard may be topic-banned as an arbitration enforcement action." Also see the policy Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources. If you are unsure whether your edit is appropriate, discuss it on this talk page first. |
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
![]() | Jedwabne pogrom is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||
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![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on July 10, 2009, July 10, 2010, July 10, 2012, July 10, 2015, July 10, 2016, July 10, 2019, and July 10, 2021. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
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The article currently includes:
Stachura took exception to their letter. History declined to publish his reply; instead, it was posted on the website of Glaukopis, a right-wing Polish journal. [1]Stachura, Peter (6 February 2008). "Jedwabne: A reply to Antony Polonsky & Joanna Michlic" (PDF). Glaukopis. Archived from the original (PDF) on 10 May 2017.
References
Glaukopis is a problematic publication, whose web site moreover only hosts the letter, after History declined to publish it. Finding this statement to be undue, I suggest it be removed. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 10:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
After I removed Glaukopis per above, having seen it is associated with anti-semitism, now I see more discussion is needed about the lede. This once-volatile article has just had it's longest period of stability for ages, lasting for many months of peace and WP:CONS. But looking at the lede after this recent round of good faith edits [2] the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER looks like a return to impassioned editorializing. Edit summary shows this is possibly a result of an honest misperception of bad faith in our article: "The selective quotation of an extract from Gross fundamentally distorts the main point of his book - to draw attention to the co-responsibility of sectors of the Polish population in the Holocaust." That's going too far about the use of a verifiable quote. In fact, it's partly there because anti-semitic Polish nationalists falsely accuse Gross of having an unbalanced approach to Polish responsibility in the Jedwabne pogrom; contrary to what the anti-semites say, it's verifiable in Gross's text that he's very balanced in terms of the Polish and German joint roles, particularly with reference to the Polish murderers' pre-massacre conference with the German "Gestapo" and the 'order' to carry it out, and that in no way undermines the fact that the Polish murderers carried out the murders of their own free will. This article says the Polish murderers of Jews cooperated with the Germans; it does not say they were coerced, indeed I have removed that exact WP:OR in the past. Thoughts? Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER, but the "however" was already there in the source, and omitting it distorts Gross's findings. Gross says
Gross's point is quite clear: the Germans could have prevented the pogrom, and they didn't, they were the necessary condition and triggering factor of the pogrom; however, the pogrom was carried out by the Poles on their own initiative:Now, let us understand the broader context in which the murders took place. At the time the overall undisputed bosses over life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. No sustained organized activity could take place there without their consent.13 They were the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews. It was within their power also to stop the murderous pogrom at any time. And they did not choose to intervene. If they suggested that some Jewish families be spared, they must have done so without serious conviction, for all the Jews on whom the murderers lay their hands were killed in the end. And, ironically, on that day the outpost of the German gendarmerie was the safest place in town for the Jews, and a few survived only because they happened to be there at the time. But it is also clear that had Jedwabne not been occupied by the Germans, the Jews of Jedwabne would not have been murdered by their neighbors. This is not a gratuitous observation—the tragedy of Jedwabne Jewry is but an episode in the murderous war that Hitler waged against all Jews. As to the Germans’ direct participation in the mass murder of Jews in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941, however, one must admit that it was limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures
the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will(p. 133). We shouldn't misrepresent the main thesis of the book by including in the lead only that
According to historian Jan T. Gross, "the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans," who were "the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews."This is also contrary to WP:MOS, since the body of the article reports that
While Gross recognized that no "sustained organizing activity" could have taken place without the Germans' consent, he concluded that the massacre had been carried out entirely by Poles(section Jan T. Gross's Neighbors, 2000).
Where the initiative came from [whether from the Germans or Poles] is impossible to settle once and for all. But it is also an academic question, since both sides apparently quickly agreed on the matter, and on the method of its implementation. However, you are using "original research" in a way that has no basis in policy: WP:OR applies to the content of WP articles, not to the arguments exchanged by editors in talk page discussion, and both in the text I published [3] and in the talk page discussion (here above) the quotations from Gross were accurate, namely: Germans' direct participation in the massacre was
limited, pretty much, to their taking picturesand
the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 13:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
...their direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures" [1] and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will". [2]
References
- ^ Gross 2001, p. 78 .
- ^ Gross 2001, p. 133 ; italics by the author; ivi, p. 138: "It is simply not true that Jews were murdered in Poland during the war solely by the Germans, occasionally assisted in the execution of their gruesome task by some auxiliary police formations composed primarily of Latvians, Ukrainians, or some other ' Kalmuks'...".
inadvertently. These references were supporting/strengthening the claim
the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. If that sentence is removed, those references are no longer needed. At most, they should be placed somewhere in the article body rather than the lead.
the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans) is still included, but is supplemented by other quotes from Gross so as not to distort his findings. Would you be OK with that drafting of the lead? Or do you want to have that the undisputed bosses were the Germans and stop - no mention of local popolation acting of their own free will? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
The same Gross quote under discussion above is supporting the infobox statement:
At least 40 ethnic Poles in cooperation with German military police [1] [2]
References
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Ignatiew 2002
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ Gross 2001, pp. 76–78 "There was an outpost of German gendarmerie in Jedwabne, staffed by eleven men. We can also infer from various sources that a group of Gestapo men arrived in town by taxi either on that day or the previous one." [...] "At the time the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. No sustained organized activity could take place there without their consent. They were the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews."
This quote from Gross was removed in this edit: [10], because (as I understand it) it was lacking the follow-up of "their [German's] direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures".... and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will."
I find the statement to be lacking nuance, being in the infobox, and it perhaps leaves the impression that the Germans may have played a more active role ("cooperation") than the current research suggests. Suggest "... in cooperation with" be removed from the infobox. "German incitement" is mentioned under the Motive parameter in the infobox and this is sufficient. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
@ K.e.coffman: Thank you. Apart from the Polish nationalist minority of sources that we ignore, all mainstream sources including Gross concur that Poles carried out the massacre in cooperation with German personnel. That refers to the well-documented meeting between the Polish ringleaders and German personnel right before the massacre took place, as well as the control of the town by German personnel at the time of the massacre. It's unambiguously a case of direct Polish collaboration with the Nazis.
So that we're all on the same page, let's ensure we're all familiar with this current research, and which sources we are referring to beyond Gross 2001. Because it's important to note at over the past 22 years the academic consensus has corrected parts of his generally excellent first-mover work. Initially, that was followed by an official murder investigation by the prosecutor Ignatiew which concluded in 2002. This was praised by Gross, it entailed far more witness testimony and documentation than Gross had, as well as a forensic excavation of the the massacre site to test the Gross hypotheses.
After the investigation, literally hundreds of secondary sources on Jedwabne were informed by it, a good indication of which is our reference, Stola 2003, which directly revises specific details in Gross, including that hypothesis around the taking of photographs. Stola himself has been in trouble with Poland's current nationalist government, because during his excellent leadership of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews the institution pointed out anti-Semitism among the pro-government media. I invite familiarization with Stola 2003 as it's right there for download through our article. Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 04:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
We have now in the lead "At least 340 men, women and children were murdered, some 300 of whom were locked in a barn and burned alive". On this, we are relying on the findings of the IPN investigation (Ignatiew 2002, 2003). However, Stola 2003 says estimates vary from 300 to 1,600
; he also says that estimates ranging from 400-800 seem much more plausible than those above 1,000
. The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, vol. 2, part A, 2012, p. 900, reports the following:
Some set the number of victims at 2,000, including 230 Wizna Jews, and others at 1,400, including refugees from Wizna and Radziłów. Until recently, the most widely accepted death toll was 1,600, likely drawn from the testimony of Szmul Wasersztejn.7 However, the Soviet population figures and an incomplete and controversial forensic investigation in 2002, which estimated 300 to 400 people perished in the barn, have led some to argue the fire claimed fewer lives. The number of survivors also varies, with Rywka Fogiel (Rivka Fogel) remembering 125 and Menachem Finkelsztejn, a Radziłów survivor, mentioning 302
On the basis of these sources, I suggest adopting Stola's non-committal formulation about estimates ranging btw 300 and 1600 and possibly providing more information on the number of victims in the article body. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 10:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
My gut is that the individual names of those who retracted their confessions is WP:UNDUE. However, I don't feel terribly strongly about it, and idk how to handle the related citation, so I'm not going to be WP:BOLD and delete it. One option might be to say that "at least nine people retracted . . ." as there are nine names on the list. Adoring nanny ( talk) 03:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not 100% up on British English. I would have said "burned alive". But I'm not British. Adoring nanny ( talk) 04:27, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
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Change: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
To: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
Also: Podlaskie region should redirect to "Podlaskie voivodeship" not "podlachia". LEJ PO ŁYMPIE ( talk) 02:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
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After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.
to
After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement. LEJ PO ŁYMPIE ( talk) 12:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)