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I'm planning to combine the information present here into Operation Tractable, the primary page on the Anglo-Canadian-Polish efforts to close the Falaise Pocket. Cheers! Cam ( Chat) 05:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A copyedit has been requested on this article, which I'm finally getting round to ;) However, before I start, has the merge/delete (discussed above) been decided? EyeSerene talk 10:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello folks, scuse me for intruding on an article I've previously had nothing to do with, but I just noticed your chat here and wondered if I might be able to help. I've just started an interesting book (Lucas, James (1978). The Killing Ground, The Battle of the Falaise Gap, August 1944. BT Batsford Ltd.
ISBN
0-7134-0433-7. {{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |origdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)) - hence my visiting here. It looks like a good read, but there's a fair bit of detail so I can't yet work out exactly how the Poles captured the hill just by thumbing through the pages. If it's any use though, it extensively refers to the two peaks of the hill as the Mace, apparently it assumed that name because the shape of the contour lines on allied maps resembled one. Let me know if I can be of any use, cheers
Ranger Steve (
talk) 19:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Are Mont Ormel and Hill 262 actually described as the same place in other sources? I only ask because Lucas and Barker do distinguish between the two. They also describe the Mace as the high ground between Mont-Ormel and Coudehard (rather than Mont-Ormel being a place on the hill). I imagine the two names are probably synonymous in literature nowadays but it might be worth clarifying a difference if there is one. Ranger Steve ( talk) 12:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Dallas ( click me and see page 158) states that the Mace is the Mount Ormel Ridge, the northern height of the ridge being Hill 262. -- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 16:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
"...whild the balance of the division occupied the high ground Coudehard - Mount Ormel, where the ring contours enclosing Pt 262 north, Pt 252, and 262 south sugegested the shape of a mace ..."
Terry Copp has a map with contour lines but like yourself i cant see this mace. Stacey implies that it was 262 north and Copp (p. 242) states that the Poles occupied Coudehart and 262 north. D'Este supports this, p. 442, the Poles the northern end of the ridge around midday on the 19th.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Guys sorry that I didn't comment recently here but I was extremely busy in the past few days with setting up a contest. Hopefully I'll find some time tommorow and pop in. Thanks a lot for your help! -- Eurocopter ( talk) 20:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I know there have been a few questions raised about various points regarding this battle, hopefully this will help – it is the information from the Canadian official campaign history concerning the Polish advance south and the defence of Hill 262. Any emphasis is mine.
"At 11:00 a.m. on 19 August Simonds again conferred with his four divisional commanders at the 4th Division's main headquarters east of Morteaux- Couliboeuf. He emphasized that the encirclement must be complete; no Germans were to escape. ... while the Poles would be responsible for the area from Moissy to Chambois and Hill 262, a commanding height north-east of Chambois,* which was reported to be in American hands."
"*Not to be confused with another Hill 262,. overlooking Coudehard from the north, where the Poles were locked in a death-struggle with the enemy."
- Stacey, pp. 259-260
"Farther to the east the much-tried Poles were engaged in bloody fighting. About 11 o'clock in the morning, according to information reaching General Simonds, they were concentrated mainly in three battle groups, each comprising an armoured regiment and an infantry battalion: one immediately east of Coudehard and two between that place and St.Lambert. A reconnaissance squadron was reported in an area perhaps a mile and a half north-east of Chambois. And south of Chambois, on the other side of a Gap now nearly non-existent, the battalions of the 359th U.S. Infantry Regiment (of the 90th Division) were fighting their way forward from the direction of Le Bourg St. Leonard."
- Stacey, p. 260
"Both the Poles and the Americans claim to have captured Chambois. According to the Polish account, their 10th Dragoons (10th Polish Motor Battalion) came down from the north, joined up with their reconnaissance elements (10th Polish Mounted Rifle Regiment) outside the town, and proceeded to take the place. The First Canadian Army situation report that night stated that these two units captured Chambois at 7:20 p.m. "and were joined by 90 US Inf Div forces"."
and
"The impression one receives is that of Poles and Americans arriving in Chambois from opposite directions at about the same moment, though the Americans may have been in greater strength. Whatever the precise circumstances, contact was made between the First Canadian and First United States Armies at Chambois that evening"
- Stacey, p. 261
"West of Chambois the same mass movement struck the 359th U.S. Infantry, whose 3rd Battalion were temporarily "pushed back a little from their positions". The Americans recorded that it seemed that the Germans were "not attacking but merely trying to escape". Whatever else the German rush accomplished, it prevented the Poles and Americans in Chambois and the Canadians in St. Lambert from establishing contact with each other ... Through this considerable numbers of Germans continued to escape, often only to collide with the Polish battle-groups to the north-east. The Poles were now disposed in three main groups: the 2nd Armoured Regiment group at Hill 240, a mile east of Ecorches; a second group on the dominant feature above Coudehard formed by Hills 252 and 262, called by the Poles, from its shape on the map, "Maczuga" (mace); and a third at and north of Chambois. Cut off from the rest of First Canadian Army; unable to evacuate their prisoners and their own wounded, and running short of ammunition, petrol and food; and, fighting desperately against Germans attacking both from inside and outside the pocket, the Poles had a hard and bitter day on the 20th."
- Stacey, p. 262
"General Simonds, we have seen, had given orders on the 20th that every effort was to be made to push through and restore communications with the isolated Poles."
- Stacey, p. 263
"The Polish group near Chambois was similarly relieved by a supply column escorted by The Highland Light Infantry of Canada ... The Polish Armoured Division, indeed, had had a terrible experience. Forming the spearhead of First Canadian Army's advance, the greater part of it had been entirely cut off by the rush of Germans fighting their way out of the Pocket, and neither food nor ammunition could reach it. On the morning of the 21st, although the weather was bad for flying, ammunition was dropped to the Poles from the air, directed at Point 122, immediately east of Chambois."
- Stacey, p. 264-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 09:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, just re-read your above and the other info we've gathered. The following points stand out:
There's obviously some way to go in developing the article, but I think we're finally at the stage where most of the raw information has been assembled. Nice detective work all :) EyeSerene talk 11:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Copp, p. 240
Mid afternoon 18 Aug the Poles had still not captured Chambois. “Maczek reported that the Loszutski battlegroup had gone astray and ended up at Les Champeaux, 10 kilometres north of Chambois. It was short of ammunition and fuel, and Maczek had sent one of his infantry battalions to assist it. The divisional recce regiment had reached the edge of Chambois but could not entre the town...”
p.241-242
Requests to pull the Poles back due to 2TAF hitting them and allow the latter free range was turned down as Poles had reached 262 north and were cut off by the time Monty was consulted.
p.243
19 August midday Poles are reported to be advancing on Cahmbois, Coudehard and Mt-Ormel but not there yet.
Maczek, following the meeting the above was reported in, was determined to get his men onto their objectives ASAP. The division advancing in “three separate battlegroups” captured Coudehard at 15:39 and “after a battle with Panthers” occupied Pt 262 north. “A great number of prisoners’ were taken in the capture of Pt 137”.
10th Dragoons linked up with the recce rgt outside Chambois at 1930. Yanks reached the town around the same time and the Poles handed over their prisoners to the Yankies.
p.244
“There was good reason to congratulate the Poles, who had finally closed the pocket, but were there enough troops on the ground to keep it closed?”
I have consulted the British OH by Ellis and there is hardly any detailed information on the fight and likewise for Beevor.
Michael Reynolds book on the II SS Panzer Corps (book details available in the Operation Epsom article confirms that Pt 262 south was unoccupied by the Poles; a feature that he calls “important”.
During the fighting, sometime after 0900 on it appears the 20th in the Das Reich’s first attack for the hill a Panther apparently picked off 5 Polish Shermans – an incident Reynolds calls “well recorded”.
Early afternoon KG Weidinger had secured the important road fork 1km NE of Coudehard and claimed they had opened the pocket.
Reynolds states that no Allied infantry were deployed in a 5km stretch of the Dives, thus leaving the pocket open, between Magny and Moissy – an area were men could wade across although they were interdicted by indirect fire.
The KG stayed in this position until 1600 hours after which, ignoring orders to advance on Chambois, they withdrew out of the pocket believing no more troops would escape that way.
- P. 87
The Poles claim that as late as 1700 hours that infantry and tanks penetrated their premiter on the Ormel ridge and that it took until 1900 to expel them destroyer three MK IVs in the process.
- Pp. 87-88
Reynolds claims that reports that KG Deutschland was fired upon by the Poles to be incorrect as the Poles were 4 km away from this KG’s position but does believe they did not fabricate this report just misidentified who attacked them.
-p. 88-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Zgorzelski battle group secured the Pt 137 near Couehard around midday. The 24th Lancers then moved to secure Frenee. Around the same time the 1st Polish Armoured regiment, with the 9th infantry battalion and a company of AT guns advanced towards the main Chambois road at Pt 262 (north) and 252 – 5km NW of Chambois. Leading tanks arrived at 1600 hours and engaged mass Germans and destroyed 2 Panthers – 1 being towed behind the other. One infantry company occupied Coudehard Boisjos; the tanks, the rest of the infantry and the at guns occupied Pt 262 1030 hours the Koszutski battle group, in the les Champeaux area, had been resupplied and set off around midday and set off for Pt 262 N. They established themselves on the E and N sides of Pt 262N around 1700. Pt 262N and Coudehard Boisjos had become Polish strongholds but no one had occupied Pt 262 S.
Pt 262N is “often referred to as ‘Mont Ormel’ after the nearby hamlet”. The position offered “spectacular views over much of the Falaise Pocket”. Pt 262S however obscured observation to the SE
- A near enough direct quote from Reynolds, p. 273, Steel Inferno apart from when i have used quote marks then it is a word for word quote.
Terrain, woods and hedgerows made control of the W and SW with direct fire weapons difficult by day and impossible by night.
-pp. 273-274
The terrain to the W and SW is where most Gemans slipped though. The poles controlled 2 square KM but little else. However remained the major, “if not the major” impediment to the German retreat.
Division HQ was located 8km to the NW on Pt 259 and 10th Arm bde 3 km way to the W at Bourdon. 1900 the tanks of the 24 Lancers advanced to a blocking position 1500m NE of Chambois and linked up with the divisions recon unit – 10th mounted rifles and 2 M10 AT companies. Some of this force had moved to Pt 113 1 km n of Chambois.
1930 hours the 10th dragoons (motorised infantry) , moving from Pt 137, entered Chambois and then linked up with 2nd Bn US 359th Rgt.
- p. 274
The panther incident is further described; the panther on p. 239 1500m north of the poles picked the tanks off sometime after 1500 hours on the 20th
Reynold states the reports that all officers, on Ormel, were killed or wounded by the end of the day is without foundation.
1530 hours the 24th Lancers are moved into Chambois to reinforce the infantry due to serious German pressure
-p. 279
Early the next day the Recon regt tried to reinforce the force on the mace but were fired on by the defenders then withdrew after losing 2 Cromwells.
Last German attack hit the mace around 1100 hours and was repelled. 1330 hours the Canadian Grenadier Guards relived the position. The Guards had started there advance at 0800 and lost 4 tanks on the way but claimed 2 panthers, 1 MK Iv and 2 SP guns.
-p. 280-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Note: Reynolds claims only 1500 men were defending the Mace, claimed in both books, and on p.280 on this book he claims only 351 were lost in total defending the position - dead and wounded. Vastly different to what we have now.--
EnigmaMcmxc (
talk) 19:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm in the process of integrating the above info into the article. EyeSerene talk 11:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
== Legacy == In 1965, on the battle's 20th anniversary, a monument to the Polish dead was erected on Hill 262. [1] The Mémorial de Coudehard – Montormel museum was constructed on the same site in 1994, to mark the battle's 50th anniversary. [2]
Stuck this here as the Montormel site has gone dead, so can't verify the refs :( EyeSerene talk 09:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
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help)
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cite web}}
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help)
Nothing much to do with the article, but I reckon we've been looking at this wrong - the crucial word is "caveman", and something may have been lost in the translation. Imagine an improvised club made from a length of shinbone... click here. The "bulbous heads" are 262N and 262S, and the pass + Mont Ormel village is the 'handle'. EyeSerene talk 08:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've been through with McGilvray, who goes into a lot of detail on this episode, and integrated his text with the existing text. Proofreading etc would be very welcome :) I'll leave it for a few days now, then come back to it fresh and undoubtedly make some further prose tweaks. However, I think (hope!) we're basically done. EyeSerene talk 12:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
more than one source put the polish casualties around 1.500 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.127.100 ( talk) 02:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Finally finished that book, and then put it at the back of my bookshelf while I desperately looked for an easier read! Not really much I can add after everyone else's comprehensive expansion, but I have one query to make. Lucas and Barker claim that the Polish attack on the 19th started at 10:00hrs and their first salvo on the German column upon reaching the summit of the Mace was at 12:45hrs. At the moment the article says they set off in the afternoon. Noting the conversation above about the order in which objectives were seized, does anyone have anything different in their sources, or shall I edit this in? Ranger Steve ( talk) 12:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Finally sorted out my bookshelves. I've made a tentative edit to incorporate the time the Poles reach the summit (seems relevant to the article), but I'm a bit stuck on two things. I assume then that the Polish Highland Battalion would have been part of Zgorzelski's battlegroup, but I don't want to add them to the list as I don't have that as a ref. Secondly, the Polish Highland Brigade is mentioned in the following para... Who are they? Ranger Steve ( talk) 13:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
As a quick, and possibly not very helpful, comment, should this article be named 'Battle of Hill 262' or similar? I followed the link thinking that the article would be about the geographic feature and was a bit surprised to find that it's about a fairly short, but intense, battle. Nick-D ( talk) 11:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Here are some comments I've got about the article, coming in with what is hopefully a fresh set of eyes and not a lot of knowledge about this specific battle:
Good article, prose needs a little damping down in its ardour, and one major cite needed, but otherwise would seem well on its way to FAC. Skinny87 ( talk) 13:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Update: added four maps to the article - the image sizes and captions need some tweaking but I don't have the time to do that now... EyeSerene talk 18:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions "Loszutski's battlegroup". This is likely a typo, I cannot find such a name anywhere in Google Books, and Google mostly shows wiki mirrors. As this article does not use Google Book pagelinks, I don't have time to quickly check the sources, but this needs to be fixed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Just noting here (to myself and anyone else who's interested!) that further work is needed on resolving some inconsistencies re the battlegroups and who went where/did what. There seems to have been four battlegroups formed at some point, backing up Jarymowycz, though only three may have taken part in the action around Hill 262. Resolving this is a priority as soon as I can pull the sources together again :) EyeSerene talk 10:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
P.15 : "Instead of keeping the armoured brigade regiments effectively separate from the battalions of the infantry brigade, as War Office doctrine and training dictated, the GOC of 11th Armoured Division balanced one tank regiment with an infantry battalion to provide improved co-ordination.15 In the close terrain of Normandy, mutual support was essential. The Guards Armoured Division followed suit, as did the Polish 1st Armoured Division.16" P.43 : "However, although the Germans were still offering resistance, their flanks were open and Simonds unleashed 4th Canadian and 1st Polish Armoured Divisions to the east and ultimately to close the Falaise Pocket at Trun and Chambois. Maczek’s Poles demonstrated considerable flexibility in this role, reorganising into four battlegroups akin to the model adopted by Roberts and Adair for Bluecoat."
To confuse matters further:
shape on the map, "Maczuga" (mace); and a third at and north of Chambois.182" The source being the "Operational Report, 1st Polish Armoured Division, 12-22 Aug 44."
D'Este, Ellis, Beevor (nothing that hasnt been covered above) sitto for Wilmot.
Category:GA-Class Poland-related articles
Illustrative maps have inaccuracies. Loszutski BG should read Zgorzelski battle group consisting of 10th Dragoons (Mounted Rifles - 10 PSK) and 24th Lancers who were tasked to link up with the Americans in Chambois which they did around 18:00 on the 19th August. Zgorselski group shown on hill 262N should read Stafanowicz battle group comprising 1st Armoured Regiment (Tank) and elements of the of 1st Polish Podhalian (Highland) Rifle Battalion. This battle group reached hill 262N first around 12:40 19th August. Koszutskis Battle group consisting of 2nd Armoured Regiment (Tank) and 8th Infantry Battalion reached hill 262N around 17:50. Finally Szydlowski battle group consisting of 9th Infantry Brigade and the rest of 1st Polish Podhalian Rifle Battalion arrived at 19:30. Not forgetting to mention that each of the battle groups had elements of artillery, anti-tank and anti-aircraft brigades. Ref Falaise Pocket Paul Latawski P142 There is no officer by the name of Loszutski in the Polish 1st Armoured Division. Ref: Obsada personalna 1 Dywizji Pancernej na przełomie sierpnia i września 1944 r.
Seriously this article ought to be removed until the serious errors are corrected. A typo error of Koszutski to Loszutski and in the wrong place and the omission of Stefanowicz from the maps is amateur in the extreme.
Also you will find very specific and definitive detail in book "Polska 1. Dywizja Pancerna w Normandii" by Kutzner & Tym written in Polish - details to squadron level where everyone was with times and map/hill references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMarczak ( talk • contribs) 10:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
When talking about hill 262 you begin to realise there are in fact references to three hills. Hill 252 the first hill to be occupied by Stefanowski's 1st Armoured Regiment and the location of the Mont Ormel "Maczuga" monument and museum. Squadrons 1&2 of the 1st Armoured Regiment occupied hill 252 and at 12:40 on the 19th August let rip on the German retreat along the Chambois to Vimoutiers road. The 3rd Squadron 1st Armoured Regiment was in the region of hill 262N. Hill 262N is between the monument and Boisjois Manor "Zamaczek". The 2nd Armoured Regiment arrived some 5 hours later and located to the region close to Boisjois Hill 262S just north of Frenee was a target but never occupied - immovable wreckage of German tanks, trucks along the Chambois to Vimoutiers road, added to the smoke of burning war material which was so dense and impenetrable that visibility was reduced to nil making it impossible to get to the other side and hill 262S.
Be really be nice if someone could correct the regimental inaccuracies in the article and the maps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMarczak ( talk • contribs) 16:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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This article is entitled Hill 262. While, for those seeking to locate this article's contents, it is likely not difficult to understand that this article is about the Battle of Hill 262. However, as most articles on the battles that occurred in a specific place are named Battle of SuchAndSuch, it would seem appropriate that this article be similarly named. So, it is my proposition that this article (since it is not about Hill 262 but rather the battle relevant to the heights so-named) be renamed Battle of Hill 262. In keeping with Wikipedia's general decorum with moves, I wanted to post this on the talk page and see if there were objections before I made the switch. Anticipate that the change will occur in two weeks time if no complaints are raised and I fully understand if after the fact there are those who find the move disagreeable and revert it back. Thanks! ~ Pbritti ( talk) 01:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Stephen E. Ambrose, Citizen Soldiers: The U. S. Army from the Normandy Beaches to the Bulge to the Surrender of Germany, page 105 has the following:
"Over the next couple of days, Waters wrote "the Germans attacked with all the fury they they could bring to bear, fueled by their desperation to escape." Others were trying to surrender, many of them successfully. Too many, in fact. Neither the Poles nor the Americans had facilities to deal with them. Waters established a POW pen in Chambois, but it was badly overcrowded. Still, one morning a Polish captain brought in some 200 additional POWs to turn over to the Americans.
Polish captain: "Here are your prisoners"
Waters: "I don't want them."
Polish captain: "But I must leave them with you.Those are my orders".
Waters: "I still don't want them. Get them out of here". (Waters orders were to accept them, but he had been told to expect 1500; in fact there were only couple of hundred.)
Polish captain: "But I must still leave them with you."
Waters: "Well, you were supposed to have 1500 prisoners. Where are they?"
Polish captain: "They are dead. We shoot them. These are all that are left".
Waters: "Then why don't you shoot these too?" A pause, then Waters corrected himself: "No, you can't do that."
Polish captain: "Oh, yes we can. They shot my countryman." He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others. Then he said "Captain, we can't shoot them. We are out of ammunition."
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I'm planning to combine the information present here into Operation Tractable, the primary page on the Anglo-Canadian-Polish efforts to close the Falaise Pocket. Cheers! Cam ( Chat) 05:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A copyedit has been requested on this article, which I'm finally getting round to ;) However, before I start, has the merge/delete (discussed above) been decided? EyeSerene talk 10:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello folks, scuse me for intruding on an article I've previously had nothing to do with, but I just noticed your chat here and wondered if I might be able to help. I've just started an interesting book (Lucas, James (1978). The Killing Ground, The Battle of the Falaise Gap, August 1944. BT Batsford Ltd.
ISBN
0-7134-0433-7. {{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |origdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)) - hence my visiting here. It looks like a good read, but there's a fair bit of detail so I can't yet work out exactly how the Poles captured the hill just by thumbing through the pages. If it's any use though, it extensively refers to the two peaks of the hill as the Mace, apparently it assumed that name because the shape of the contour lines on allied maps resembled one. Let me know if I can be of any use, cheers
Ranger Steve (
talk) 19:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Are Mont Ormel and Hill 262 actually described as the same place in other sources? I only ask because Lucas and Barker do distinguish between the two. They also describe the Mace as the high ground between Mont-Ormel and Coudehard (rather than Mont-Ormel being a place on the hill). I imagine the two names are probably synonymous in literature nowadays but it might be worth clarifying a difference if there is one. Ranger Steve ( talk) 12:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Dallas ( click me and see page 158) states that the Mace is the Mount Ormel Ridge, the northern height of the ridge being Hill 262. -- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 16:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
"...whild the balance of the division occupied the high ground Coudehard - Mount Ormel, where the ring contours enclosing Pt 262 north, Pt 252, and 262 south sugegested the shape of a mace ..."
Terry Copp has a map with contour lines but like yourself i cant see this mace. Stacey implies that it was 262 north and Copp (p. 242) states that the Poles occupied Coudehart and 262 north. D'Este supports this, p. 442, the Poles the northern end of the ridge around midday on the 19th.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Guys sorry that I didn't comment recently here but I was extremely busy in the past few days with setting up a contest. Hopefully I'll find some time tommorow and pop in. Thanks a lot for your help! -- Eurocopter ( talk) 20:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I know there have been a few questions raised about various points regarding this battle, hopefully this will help – it is the information from the Canadian official campaign history concerning the Polish advance south and the defence of Hill 262. Any emphasis is mine.
"At 11:00 a.m. on 19 August Simonds again conferred with his four divisional commanders at the 4th Division's main headquarters east of Morteaux- Couliboeuf. He emphasized that the encirclement must be complete; no Germans were to escape. ... while the Poles would be responsible for the area from Moissy to Chambois and Hill 262, a commanding height north-east of Chambois,* which was reported to be in American hands."
"*Not to be confused with another Hill 262,. overlooking Coudehard from the north, where the Poles were locked in a death-struggle with the enemy."
- Stacey, pp. 259-260
"Farther to the east the much-tried Poles were engaged in bloody fighting. About 11 o'clock in the morning, according to information reaching General Simonds, they were concentrated mainly in three battle groups, each comprising an armoured regiment and an infantry battalion: one immediately east of Coudehard and two between that place and St.Lambert. A reconnaissance squadron was reported in an area perhaps a mile and a half north-east of Chambois. And south of Chambois, on the other side of a Gap now nearly non-existent, the battalions of the 359th U.S. Infantry Regiment (of the 90th Division) were fighting their way forward from the direction of Le Bourg St. Leonard."
- Stacey, p. 260
"Both the Poles and the Americans claim to have captured Chambois. According to the Polish account, their 10th Dragoons (10th Polish Motor Battalion) came down from the north, joined up with their reconnaissance elements (10th Polish Mounted Rifle Regiment) outside the town, and proceeded to take the place. The First Canadian Army situation report that night stated that these two units captured Chambois at 7:20 p.m. "and were joined by 90 US Inf Div forces"."
and
"The impression one receives is that of Poles and Americans arriving in Chambois from opposite directions at about the same moment, though the Americans may have been in greater strength. Whatever the precise circumstances, contact was made between the First Canadian and First United States Armies at Chambois that evening"
- Stacey, p. 261
"West of Chambois the same mass movement struck the 359th U.S. Infantry, whose 3rd Battalion were temporarily "pushed back a little from their positions". The Americans recorded that it seemed that the Germans were "not attacking but merely trying to escape". Whatever else the German rush accomplished, it prevented the Poles and Americans in Chambois and the Canadians in St. Lambert from establishing contact with each other ... Through this considerable numbers of Germans continued to escape, often only to collide with the Polish battle-groups to the north-east. The Poles were now disposed in three main groups: the 2nd Armoured Regiment group at Hill 240, a mile east of Ecorches; a second group on the dominant feature above Coudehard formed by Hills 252 and 262, called by the Poles, from its shape on the map, "Maczuga" (mace); and a third at and north of Chambois. Cut off from the rest of First Canadian Army; unable to evacuate their prisoners and their own wounded, and running short of ammunition, petrol and food; and, fighting desperately against Germans attacking both from inside and outside the pocket, the Poles had a hard and bitter day on the 20th."
- Stacey, p. 262
"General Simonds, we have seen, had given orders on the 20th that every effort was to be made to push through and restore communications with the isolated Poles."
- Stacey, p. 263
"The Polish group near Chambois was similarly relieved by a supply column escorted by The Highland Light Infantry of Canada ... The Polish Armoured Division, indeed, had had a terrible experience. Forming the spearhead of First Canadian Army's advance, the greater part of it had been entirely cut off by the rush of Germans fighting their way out of the Pocket, and neither food nor ammunition could reach it. On the morning of the 21st, although the weather was bad for flying, ammunition was dropped to the Poles from the air, directed at Point 122, immediately east of Chambois."
- Stacey, p. 264-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 09:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, just re-read your above and the other info we've gathered. The following points stand out:
There's obviously some way to go in developing the article, but I think we're finally at the stage where most of the raw information has been assembled. Nice detective work all :) EyeSerene talk 11:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Copp, p. 240
Mid afternoon 18 Aug the Poles had still not captured Chambois. “Maczek reported that the Loszutski battlegroup had gone astray and ended up at Les Champeaux, 10 kilometres north of Chambois. It was short of ammunition and fuel, and Maczek had sent one of his infantry battalions to assist it. The divisional recce regiment had reached the edge of Chambois but could not entre the town...”
p.241-242
Requests to pull the Poles back due to 2TAF hitting them and allow the latter free range was turned down as Poles had reached 262 north and were cut off by the time Monty was consulted.
p.243
19 August midday Poles are reported to be advancing on Cahmbois, Coudehard and Mt-Ormel but not there yet.
Maczek, following the meeting the above was reported in, was determined to get his men onto their objectives ASAP. The division advancing in “three separate battlegroups” captured Coudehard at 15:39 and “after a battle with Panthers” occupied Pt 262 north. “A great number of prisoners’ were taken in the capture of Pt 137”.
10th Dragoons linked up with the recce rgt outside Chambois at 1930. Yanks reached the town around the same time and the Poles handed over their prisoners to the Yankies.
p.244
“There was good reason to congratulate the Poles, who had finally closed the pocket, but were there enough troops on the ground to keep it closed?”
I have consulted the British OH by Ellis and there is hardly any detailed information on the fight and likewise for Beevor.
Michael Reynolds book on the II SS Panzer Corps (book details available in the Operation Epsom article confirms that Pt 262 south was unoccupied by the Poles; a feature that he calls “important”.
During the fighting, sometime after 0900 on it appears the 20th in the Das Reich’s first attack for the hill a Panther apparently picked off 5 Polish Shermans – an incident Reynolds calls “well recorded”.
Early afternoon KG Weidinger had secured the important road fork 1km NE of Coudehard and claimed they had opened the pocket.
Reynolds states that no Allied infantry were deployed in a 5km stretch of the Dives, thus leaving the pocket open, between Magny and Moissy – an area were men could wade across although they were interdicted by indirect fire.
The KG stayed in this position until 1600 hours after which, ignoring orders to advance on Chambois, they withdrew out of the pocket believing no more troops would escape that way.
- P. 87
The Poles claim that as late as 1700 hours that infantry and tanks penetrated their premiter on the Ormel ridge and that it took until 1900 to expel them destroyer three MK IVs in the process.
- Pp. 87-88
Reynolds claims that reports that KG Deutschland was fired upon by the Poles to be incorrect as the Poles were 4 km away from this KG’s position but does believe they did not fabricate this report just misidentified who attacked them.
-p. 88-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Zgorzelski battle group secured the Pt 137 near Couehard around midday. The 24th Lancers then moved to secure Frenee. Around the same time the 1st Polish Armoured regiment, with the 9th infantry battalion and a company of AT guns advanced towards the main Chambois road at Pt 262 (north) and 252 – 5km NW of Chambois. Leading tanks arrived at 1600 hours and engaged mass Germans and destroyed 2 Panthers – 1 being towed behind the other. One infantry company occupied Coudehard Boisjos; the tanks, the rest of the infantry and the at guns occupied Pt 262 1030 hours the Koszutski battle group, in the les Champeaux area, had been resupplied and set off around midday and set off for Pt 262 N. They established themselves on the E and N sides of Pt 262N around 1700. Pt 262N and Coudehard Boisjos had become Polish strongholds but no one had occupied Pt 262 S.
Pt 262N is “often referred to as ‘Mont Ormel’ after the nearby hamlet”. The position offered “spectacular views over much of the Falaise Pocket”. Pt 262S however obscured observation to the SE
- A near enough direct quote from Reynolds, p. 273, Steel Inferno apart from when i have used quote marks then it is a word for word quote.
Terrain, woods and hedgerows made control of the W and SW with direct fire weapons difficult by day and impossible by night.
-pp. 273-274
The terrain to the W and SW is where most Gemans slipped though. The poles controlled 2 square KM but little else. However remained the major, “if not the major” impediment to the German retreat.
Division HQ was located 8km to the NW on Pt 259 and 10th Arm bde 3 km way to the W at Bourdon. 1900 the tanks of the 24 Lancers advanced to a blocking position 1500m NE of Chambois and linked up with the divisions recon unit – 10th mounted rifles and 2 M10 AT companies. Some of this force had moved to Pt 113 1 km n of Chambois.
1930 hours the 10th dragoons (motorised infantry) , moving from Pt 137, entered Chambois and then linked up with 2nd Bn US 359th Rgt.
- p. 274
The panther incident is further described; the panther on p. 239 1500m north of the poles picked the tanks off sometime after 1500 hours on the 20th
Reynold states the reports that all officers, on Ormel, were killed or wounded by the end of the day is without foundation.
1530 hours the 24th Lancers are moved into Chambois to reinforce the infantry due to serious German pressure
-p. 279
Early the next day the Recon regt tried to reinforce the force on the mace but were fired on by the defenders then withdrew after losing 2 Cromwells.
Last German attack hit the mace around 1100 hours and was repelled. 1330 hours the Canadian Grenadier Guards relived the position. The Guards had started there advance at 0800 and lost 4 tanks on the way but claimed 2 panthers, 1 MK Iv and 2 SP guns.
-p. 280-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Note: Reynolds claims only 1500 men were defending the Mace, claimed in both books, and on p.280 on this book he claims only 351 were lost in total defending the position - dead and wounded. Vastly different to what we have now.--
EnigmaMcmxc (
talk) 19:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm in the process of integrating the above info into the article. EyeSerene talk 11:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
== Legacy == In 1965, on the battle's 20th anniversary, a monument to the Polish dead was erected on Hill 262. [1] The Mémorial de Coudehard – Montormel museum was constructed on the same site in 1994, to mark the battle's 50th anniversary. [2]
Stuck this here as the Montormel site has gone dead, so can't verify the refs :( EyeSerene talk 09:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
References
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Nothing much to do with the article, but I reckon we've been looking at this wrong - the crucial word is "caveman", and something may have been lost in the translation. Imagine an improvised club made from a length of shinbone... click here. The "bulbous heads" are 262N and 262S, and the pass + Mont Ormel village is the 'handle'. EyeSerene talk 08:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've been through with McGilvray, who goes into a lot of detail on this episode, and integrated his text with the existing text. Proofreading etc would be very welcome :) I'll leave it for a few days now, then come back to it fresh and undoubtedly make some further prose tweaks. However, I think (hope!) we're basically done. EyeSerene talk 12:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
more than one source put the polish casualties around 1.500 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.127.100 ( talk) 02:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Finally finished that book, and then put it at the back of my bookshelf while I desperately looked for an easier read! Not really much I can add after everyone else's comprehensive expansion, but I have one query to make. Lucas and Barker claim that the Polish attack on the 19th started at 10:00hrs and their first salvo on the German column upon reaching the summit of the Mace was at 12:45hrs. At the moment the article says they set off in the afternoon. Noting the conversation above about the order in which objectives were seized, does anyone have anything different in their sources, or shall I edit this in? Ranger Steve ( talk) 12:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Finally sorted out my bookshelves. I've made a tentative edit to incorporate the time the Poles reach the summit (seems relevant to the article), but I'm a bit stuck on two things. I assume then that the Polish Highland Battalion would have been part of Zgorzelski's battlegroup, but I don't want to add them to the list as I don't have that as a ref. Secondly, the Polish Highland Brigade is mentioned in the following para... Who are they? Ranger Steve ( talk) 13:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
As a quick, and possibly not very helpful, comment, should this article be named 'Battle of Hill 262' or similar? I followed the link thinking that the article would be about the geographic feature and was a bit surprised to find that it's about a fairly short, but intense, battle. Nick-D ( talk) 11:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Here are some comments I've got about the article, coming in with what is hopefully a fresh set of eyes and not a lot of knowledge about this specific battle:
Good article, prose needs a little damping down in its ardour, and one major cite needed, but otherwise would seem well on its way to FAC. Skinny87 ( talk) 13:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Update: added four maps to the article - the image sizes and captions need some tweaking but I don't have the time to do that now... EyeSerene talk 18:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions "Loszutski's battlegroup". This is likely a typo, I cannot find such a name anywhere in Google Books, and Google mostly shows wiki mirrors. As this article does not use Google Book pagelinks, I don't have time to quickly check the sources, but this needs to be fixed. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Just noting here (to myself and anyone else who's interested!) that further work is needed on resolving some inconsistencies re the battlegroups and who went where/did what. There seems to have been four battlegroups formed at some point, backing up Jarymowycz, though only three may have taken part in the action around Hill 262. Resolving this is a priority as soon as I can pull the sources together again :) EyeSerene talk 10:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
P.15 : "Instead of keeping the armoured brigade regiments effectively separate from the battalions of the infantry brigade, as War Office doctrine and training dictated, the GOC of 11th Armoured Division balanced one tank regiment with an infantry battalion to provide improved co-ordination.15 In the close terrain of Normandy, mutual support was essential. The Guards Armoured Division followed suit, as did the Polish 1st Armoured Division.16" P.43 : "However, although the Germans were still offering resistance, their flanks were open and Simonds unleashed 4th Canadian and 1st Polish Armoured Divisions to the east and ultimately to close the Falaise Pocket at Trun and Chambois. Maczek’s Poles demonstrated considerable flexibility in this role, reorganising into four battlegroups akin to the model adopted by Roberts and Adair for Bluecoat."
To confuse matters further:
shape on the map, "Maczuga" (mace); and a third at and north of Chambois.182" The source being the "Operational Report, 1st Polish Armoured Division, 12-22 Aug 44."
D'Este, Ellis, Beevor (nothing that hasnt been covered above) sitto for Wilmot.
Category:GA-Class Poland-related articles
Illustrative maps have inaccuracies. Loszutski BG should read Zgorzelski battle group consisting of 10th Dragoons (Mounted Rifles - 10 PSK) and 24th Lancers who were tasked to link up with the Americans in Chambois which they did around 18:00 on the 19th August. Zgorselski group shown on hill 262N should read Stafanowicz battle group comprising 1st Armoured Regiment (Tank) and elements of the of 1st Polish Podhalian (Highland) Rifle Battalion. This battle group reached hill 262N first around 12:40 19th August. Koszutskis Battle group consisting of 2nd Armoured Regiment (Tank) and 8th Infantry Battalion reached hill 262N around 17:50. Finally Szydlowski battle group consisting of 9th Infantry Brigade and the rest of 1st Polish Podhalian Rifle Battalion arrived at 19:30. Not forgetting to mention that each of the battle groups had elements of artillery, anti-tank and anti-aircraft brigades. Ref Falaise Pocket Paul Latawski P142 There is no officer by the name of Loszutski in the Polish 1st Armoured Division. Ref: Obsada personalna 1 Dywizji Pancernej na przełomie sierpnia i września 1944 r.
Seriously this article ought to be removed until the serious errors are corrected. A typo error of Koszutski to Loszutski and in the wrong place and the omission of Stefanowicz from the maps is amateur in the extreme.
Also you will find very specific and definitive detail in book "Polska 1. Dywizja Pancerna w Normandii" by Kutzner & Tym written in Polish - details to squadron level where everyone was with times and map/hill references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMarczak ( talk • contribs) 10:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
When talking about hill 262 you begin to realise there are in fact references to three hills. Hill 252 the first hill to be occupied by Stefanowski's 1st Armoured Regiment and the location of the Mont Ormel "Maczuga" monument and museum. Squadrons 1&2 of the 1st Armoured Regiment occupied hill 252 and at 12:40 on the 19th August let rip on the German retreat along the Chambois to Vimoutiers road. The 3rd Squadron 1st Armoured Regiment was in the region of hill 262N. Hill 262N is between the monument and Boisjois Manor "Zamaczek". The 2nd Armoured Regiment arrived some 5 hours later and located to the region close to Boisjois Hill 262S just north of Frenee was a target but never occupied - immovable wreckage of German tanks, trucks along the Chambois to Vimoutiers road, added to the smoke of burning war material which was so dense and impenetrable that visibility was reduced to nil making it impossible to get to the other side and hill 262S.
Be really be nice if someone could correct the regimental inaccuracies in the article and the maps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMarczak ( talk • contribs) 16:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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This article is entitled Hill 262. While, for those seeking to locate this article's contents, it is likely not difficult to understand that this article is about the Battle of Hill 262. However, as most articles on the battles that occurred in a specific place are named Battle of SuchAndSuch, it would seem appropriate that this article be similarly named. So, it is my proposition that this article (since it is not about Hill 262 but rather the battle relevant to the heights so-named) be renamed Battle of Hill 262. In keeping with Wikipedia's general decorum with moves, I wanted to post this on the talk page and see if there were objections before I made the switch. Anticipate that the change will occur in two weeks time if no complaints are raised and I fully understand if after the fact there are those who find the move disagreeable and revert it back. Thanks! ~ Pbritti ( talk) 01:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Stephen E. Ambrose, Citizen Soldiers: The U. S. Army from the Normandy Beaches to the Bulge to the Surrender of Germany, page 105 has the following:
"Over the next couple of days, Waters wrote "the Germans attacked with all the fury they they could bring to bear, fueled by their desperation to escape." Others were trying to surrender, many of them successfully. Too many, in fact. Neither the Poles nor the Americans had facilities to deal with them. Waters established a POW pen in Chambois, but it was badly overcrowded. Still, one morning a Polish captain brought in some 200 additional POWs to turn over to the Americans.
Polish captain: "Here are your prisoners"
Waters: "I don't want them."
Polish captain: "But I must leave them with you.Those are my orders".
Waters: "I still don't want them. Get them out of here". (Waters orders were to accept them, but he had been told to expect 1500; in fact there were only couple of hundred.)
Polish captain: "But I must still leave them with you."
Waters: "Well, you were supposed to have 1500 prisoners. Where are they?"
Polish captain: "They are dead. We shoot them. These are all that are left".
Waters: "Then why don't you shoot these too?" A pause, then Waters corrected himself: "No, you can't do that."
Polish captain: "Oh, yes we can. They shot my countryman." He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others. Then he said "Captain, we can't shoot them. We are out of ammunition."