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Do we really need this sentence?
"Herbert Spencer should not be confused with Edmund Spenser, the British poet."
Or, I guess, with Diana Spencer, the maiden name of the late princess, or Wlter Baldwin Spencer, an Australian anthropologist.... -- Christofurio 20:12, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
"They included, among other things, his ideas on evolution, which he saw as leading to an era of greater interpersonal cooperation."
It should be noted that Spencer's idea of interpersonal cooperation meant the poor and working classes knowing their place and sticking to it.-- Pariah 07:12, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
This is an area where there is much confusion, and there are many reasons, often due to impartial POV of various biographers of Spencer. Three things that should be considered: 1. His belief in natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. 2. His early political radicalism. 3. Later political de-radicalism. These ideas were not equivalent and Spencer's thoughts did change, so the desire to tie some supporters of Spencer with other ideas he had (or was accused of having) is one of the more notorious acts of some writers on the subject.
It is #2 where he was influential among Individualist Anarchists and radicals like H.L. Menken. #1 where his ideas were perceived by others as promoting government control, such as by Justice Holmes. Many of those that trumpeted these ideas (like Holmes and other eugenecists) were bitterly hostile to Spencer's political thought. And #3 is seen through his abandoning his radical thoughts like dropping his "The Right to Ignore the State" from later editions of Social Statics.
Note: None of this is "original work" and is commonly known among those who compare the literature on Spencer. Carltonh 00:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
You have to pay for full access (unless your college subscribes) but Questia gives Free table of contents and free first page of every chapter, plus publishing details. That's a lot of free info available NOWHERE else and essential if you are going to try for inter-library loan. It's like listing a publisher which mamy articles do--yet the publisher sells the book for $$$ and gives little or nothing away for free. Rjensen 16:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph of this section strikes me as not only not holding together well, but also as misconstruing Spencer's ideas (something apparently very easy to do).
It's the last sentence that's the real trouble:
"Some may believe in Spencer's survival of the fittest within the confines of a natural rights philosophy, but others have rejected his ideas of linear progress and replaced them with the paradigm shift ideas of Thomas Kuhn."
There's allegedly a parallel between "believing in Spencer's survival of the fittest" and "linear progress," but I don't see it. Besides, the phrase "believing in Spencer's" anything strikes me as bad encyclopedia style.
"Survival of the fittest" is the same principle as what Darwin called "natural selection." Almost EVERYONE "believes" in it to some degree, excepting (of course) modern-day creationists. The article, alas, does NOT explain that it is the identical concept as Darwin's, or that Spencer applied it to many levels of organization, from organism through functional practices to social structures. This sentence suggests that "Spencer's" principle is different from Darwin's, which it isn't. Spencer merely applied it to a different set of data. Further, it suggests that this principle (because of the parallelism with the second half of the sentence) amounts to a unilinear concept of evolution. Which it doesn't. Spencer used natural selection theory to explain evolutionary processes. They are not the same.
There's something worse here, though. Can Spencer's thought really be considered a theory of unilinear progress? Since his mental picture of evolution is one of growing complexity, with diversity and integration going on at once, how does this paint a "linear view"? It doesn't, so far as I can tell, except in some of his readers, who probably held less sophisticated notions. And from what I recall, Spencer explicitly denied that societies, for instance, must go through every stage of his evolutionary growth. He realized that many social groups, like most organisms, remain simple, "unevolved," and that societies can skip stages that he outlined at length in The Principles of Sociology. This means, to me, that Spencer explicitly foreswore the point here being applied "against" him.
Further, the idea of "paradigm shift" overview as an alternative to Spencer's -- what, his epistemology, view of science? -- doesn't tally well with the fact that many evolutionary epistemologists cite Spencer favorably. See Karl Popper's essay in "Objective Knowledge," for instance, or works by Radnitzky.
I move to strike the sentence in question, unless the original author can explain what it means, and revise to suit any criticism that I've made here that appear to others as meaningful.
NOTE: I will be putting up a whole batch of references in a week or so. There's a huge literature out there on Spencer, and this batch does not give fair representation to that extensive work.
ANOTHER NOTE: There are a few phrases in this article that strike me as quotations from scholarly work, without citing which work (for instance, sociologist Jonathan Turner's line about Darwin being a "biological Spencerian").
I moved anon comment from main text to talk.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That Spencer was an opponent of imperialism is not generally agreed upon. In his "Social Statistics" from 1850 Spencer writes that some sections of humanity may be exterminated for the greater good, ie if it benefits the "civilising" colonial project of white European upper-class men. Someone who knows more about Spencer and has read more of his works than I have should edit this article! For those of you who can read Swedish I would recommend Sven Lindqvist's book "Utrota Varenda Jävel
This is typical Richard Hofstadter' hogwash (see the work of Richard C. Bannister for example). Thus removed. Intangible2.0 23:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
"However, to regard Spencer as any kind of Darwinian, even of the 'Social' variety, is a gross distortion. ..." Isn't this whole paragraph a "gross distortion" of Social Darwinism? Social Darwinism was NOT open-ended, as proper biological darwinism is. Social Darwinists took advantage of the ambiguity in Spencer's phrase "survival of the fittest": were they fit because they survived, or did they survive because they were fit? More important, "fittest" was often equated with "best," and the rest is eugenics. This paragraph evinces a lack of understanding of Social Darwinism. Can it be edited or removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.113.94 ( talk) 17:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence of this paragraph—"Spencer created the Social Darwinist model that applied the law of the survival of the fittest to society"—is still misleading and still leaves the reader with the incorrect impression that Spencer is the "father" of Social Darwinism or that he is the founder of the Social Darwinist movement. The rest of the paragraph tries to dispel this impression but not strongly enough. As a result, some readers remain confused about the whole issue. See for example the question asked at the bottom of the Discussion page, under the heading Contradiction. Worse, once it is accepted—or even suspected—that Spencer is at the roots of Social Darwinism, it is all too easy to claim that he is subsequently responsible for eugenics, Nazism, ethnic cleansing, and so on. In other words, it becomes too easy to once again vilify Spencer. As an aside, this is Darwin's year. Why not take the opportunity to rehabilitate Spencer with some strong scholarship? Is it not time to recognize that his enormous work—however flawed it may have been—contributed to the advancement of science? Nicolas Mertens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.127.124 ( talk) 13:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Spencer was a racist/believed certain races were inferior to others? I've heard this claim many times but never seen it verified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobinReborn ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
"To your remaining question respecting the intermarriage of foreigners and Japanese, which you say is "now very much agitated among our scholars and politicians" and which you say is "one of the most difficult problems," my reply is that, as rationally answered, there is no difficulty at all. It should be positively forbidden. It is not at root a question of social philosophy. It is at root a question of biology. There is abundant proof, alike furnished by the intermarriages of human races and by the interbreeding of animals, that when the varieties mingled diverge beyond a certain slight degree the result is inevitably a bad one in the long run. I have myself been in the habit of looking at the evidence bearing on this matter for many years past, and my conviction is based on numerous facts derived from numerous sources. This conviction I have within the last half-hour verified, for I happen to be staying in the country with a gentleman who is well known and has had much experience respecting the interbreeding of cattle; and he has just, on inquiry, fully confirmed my belief that when, say of the different varieties of sheep, there is an interbreeding of those which are widely unlike, the result, especially in the second generation, is a bad one—there arise an incalculable mixture of traits, and what may be called a chaotic constitution. And the same thing happens among human beings—the Eurasians in India, the half-breeds in America, show this. The physiological basis of this experience appears to be that any one variety of creature in course of many generations acquires a certain constitutional adaptation to its particular form of life, and every other variety similarly acquires its own special adaptation. The consequence is that, if you mix the constitution of two widely divergent varieties which have severally become adapted to widely divergent modes of life, you get a constitution which is adapted to the mode of life of neither—a constitution which will not work properly, because it is not fitted for any set of conditions whatever. By all means, therefore, peremptorily interdict marriages of Japanese with foreigners. I have for the reasons indicated entirely approved of the regulations which have been established in America for restraining the Chinese immigration, and had I the power I would restrict them to the smallest possible amount, my reasons for this decision being that one of two things must happen. If the Chinese are allowed to settle extensively in America, they must either, if they remain unmixed, form a subject race standing in the position, if not of slaves, yet of a class approaching to slaves; or if they mix they must form a bad hybrid. In either case, supposing the immigration to be large, immense social mischief must arise, and eventually social disorganization. The same thing will happen if there should be any considerable mixture of European or American races with the Japanese." From the Appendix of Hearn's "Japan, An Attempt at Interpretation" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.120.232.228 ( talk) 11:22, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Could the contributor of the information about Appleton's print runs please contact me. I am working on The Origin of Species as a book and interested in comparing print runs. Appleton also published Origin. I am so pleased to have found this information in the Spencer article in Wikipedia. Well done. Please contact. -- Cornflwr 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Cornflwr - for the Appleton print numbers please see the introduction to Robert G. Perrin, Herbert Spencer: A Primary and Secondary Bibliography (Academic Press, 1993). Good luck with your project. -- 202.84.252.18 08:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
So even though Spencer was admittedly an agnostic and an opponent of theology he gets described as a deist without any reference to the text of one of his works (let alone a page number)??
And even though the contributor acknowledges he would not describe himself as a Comtean positivist he gets described as one, again without refs? Don't forget he wrote a paper on 'Reasons for dissenting from the philosophy of M. Comte'.
Much of this reads like contributor's opinion, not balanced judgement. What's needed (and it may be asking too much, especially with Spencer!) is more quotations and references to the (voluminous) literature. As an illustration of my theme, Spencer actually used 'struggle for existence' BEFORE the Origin in Social Statics 1851 (p322)!!
With strange people like Spencer and Wallace (and they are strange!) it pays to give a neutral account and let readers make their own minds up. Macdonald-ross 13:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The entry doesn't actually claim that Spencer was a deist. What it does claim is that he was influenced by deism, which shaped his ideas in much the same way that natural theology can be said to have shaped Charles Darwin's. Spencer was no more a deist than Darwin was a natural theologian, but these traditions of thought are important for understanding the ideas of these thinkers. The references given at the end of the entry, especially the paper by Paul Elliot, support this interpretation of Spencer.
A similar point applies to the question of Spencer's positivism. It is true that he denied that Comte had any influence on him, but many of those closest to him during his intellectually formative years - the 1850s - were Comte's most prominent British disciples. This is especially true of George Eliot and G.H. Lewes. Given Spencer's lack of formal education and tendency to acquire ideas from conversations with his friends and acquaintances it is inconceivable that Comte's philosophy did not exert some influence on his thought. In this respect Spencer protested too much, as he jealously aimed to guard his own supposed originality.
Spencer's "Reasons for Dissenting from the Philosophy of M. Comte" was written because he had become alarmed that he was widely viewed as being merely yet another one of Comte's British disciples. In the essay he concentrates on some relatively minor differences from Comte while neglecting to acknowledge that his conception of a philosophical system - a grand unifying theory that builds on the results of each of the special sciences - was the same as Comte's. In short, Spencer was trying to do what Comte had done, but was trying to do it better, particularly by using more up-to-date biology. The are also clear positivist influences in such matters as his discussion of the laws of nature (originally part of the First Princples but later published as a separate essay) and in his epistemology. As with the influence of deism, the influence of positivism is supported by the secondary literature.
Spencer's philosophy has been widely misunderstood and his reputation as "the father of social Darwinism" is only slowly being disabused. By drawing on the most up-to-date scholarship the entry aims to provide a more accurate assessment of Spencer's place in Victorian thought.
-- MThought 03:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
To user MThought: Wikipedia articles cannot represent points of view that are not neutral. Any claim like "Spencer's thought was essentially a combination of X and Y" is a no go: first, "essentially" is a weasel word and second, we need to qualify this claim somehow, perhaps by referencing one author's interpretation of Spencer's work, which would mean paraphrasing an expert's thesis or something along these lines and by explaining what "combine" means in this context.
Crucially, the claims in the article about Deism and Spencer are not concrete enough to be falsifiable. In other words the writing is not very good. For instance I have no idea what this means:
In essence Spencer’s philosophical vision was formed by a combination of Deism and Positivism. On the one hand, he had imbibed something of eighteenth century Deism from his father and other members of the Derby Philosophical Society and from books like George Combe’s immensely popular The Constitution of Man (1828). This treated the world as a cosmos of benevolent design, and the laws of nature as the decrees of a 'Being transcendentally kind.' Natural laws were thus the statutes of a well governed universe that had been decreed by the Creator with the intention of promoting human happiness.
What does "combine" mean? What does "imbibe" mean? What does "this" (subject of 3rd sentence) mean? I have no idea where the fourth sentence belongs.
BTW if one really is a positivist and a deist then one ends up believing in God but thinks God is fake, which strikes me as a somewhat suspect frame of mind. This is because a deist thinks God can be perceived directly by reason but a positivist thinks that the only authentic knowledge is knowledge that can be verified by the scientific method. Since no serious scientific experiment has ever claimed to prove the existence of God, we must conclude that knowledge of God is inauthentic, i.e. fake. Now maybe some Deists did believe this, but did any of them admit it out loud? Mistercupcake 22:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This article needs attention. It is POV, the tone is wrong, and is heavily padded. In particular the reference to Lamarckian evolution makes it sound like Lamarck's theory is part of the current scientific consensus, but no mainstream scientist believes this. Any opinions on whether to add a "needs an expert" tag? Mistercupcake 13:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Though much of this article is surely interesting, portions seem more like individual judgments rather than general explication. The section on the Synthetic Philosophy, in particular, should have more discussion of the content of the books (and their preparation and reception) than on general interpretation of the philosopher's background and meaning.
Is it to be counted as odd that one can read this article, long as it is, and (unless one looks at the bibliography) not gain an idea of how Spencer organized his material? What is the gist of the two sections of "First Principles"? What did Spencer aim to accomplish by beginning each subsequent treatise with "The Data of" and "The Inductions of" each discipline?
Incidentally, regarding Lamarckianism, there are indeed scientists who are reviving some quasi-Lamarckian ideas, particularly in reference to epigenetics. This does not mean, however, that this work should be cited in reference to Spencer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wirkman ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Quote: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Did Herbert Spencer in fact say this? Bclater ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Bclater ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This point is of no relevance to Spencer's biography or influence. If it is to be on Wikipedia, that is on the reincarnation & co pages but not here. Imposing it here no less than spam. -- Bombastus ( talk) 15:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The Hermetic Teachings have no fault to find with Herbert Spencer's basic principle which postulates the existence of an "Infinite and Eternal Energy, from which all things proceed." In face, the Hermetics recognize in Spencer's philosophy the highest outside statement of the workings of the Natural Laws that have ever been promulgated, and they believe Spencer to have been a reincarnation of an ancient philosopher who dwelt in ancient Egypt thousands of years ago, and who later incarnated as Heraclitus, the Grecian philosopher who lived B.C. 500. And they regard his statement of the "Infinite and Eternal Energy" as directly in the line of the Hermetic Teachings, always with the addition of their own doctrine that his "Energy" is the Energy of the Mind of THE ALL. With the Master-Key of the Hermetic Philosophy, the student of Spencer will be able to unlock many doors of the inner philosophical conceptions of the great English philosopher, whose work shows the results of the preparation of his previous incarnations. His teachings regarding Evolution and Rhythm are in almost perfect agreement with the Hermetic Teachings regarding the Principle of Rhythm.
The section on Spencer's General Influence details the impact of his ideas on the fields of Anthropology, Town Planning, Ecology, Freud, Logical Positivism, & Sociobiology: All of which without a single citation. Yet my attempts to introduce a reference - supported by a reliable source - to his undeniable influence on modern Hermeticism, have been repeatedly removed, with no more justification than "this belongs in hermeticism - not here". I have yet to hear a single cogent argument as to why his influence on hermeticism should not be recognised. Josephus ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is pretty bad at sourcing the claims in it. I've added some cite tags in the life section, but the whole article should really be worked through, with sources added for the many undocumented claims in it. -- Kristjan Wager ( talk) 13:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I recently added a photograph of Spencer's gravesite, taken about 20 years ago. It's not a particularly artistic picture, but I thought it might be better than nothing at all. Perhaps someone can find a better photo than the one I contributed. - As I wrote in my edit summary, I'm not a regular contributor to this article, I'm just passing through. Astrochemist ( talk) 13:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
"Social Statics had been the work of a radical democrat "
WRONG of course. It was the work of a radical libertarian. Which is something the marxists who edit wikipedia would never acknowledge, right ? 190.191.46.31 ( talk) 23:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The Social Darwinism article lists Herbert Spencer as a founder of Social Darwinism, but this article claims that "...to regard Spencer as any kind of Darwinian, even of the 'Social' variety, is a gross distortion." Which is the correct view? Any ideas? -- Jayson Virissimo ( talk) 09:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Spencer was influential among social evolutionists. However, it is clearly incorrect to describe him as a social darwinist. There were "real" social darwinists, who tried applying darwinian theory to human populations (generally in classist, racists and theoretically flawed ways - to the extent that they ignored major tenants of darwinism). H. Spencer wasn't one of these, though. Rather, he couldn't have missused darwinian theory because he was never a true darwinist. I forget all of the details, but I believe that a useful account of Spencer's more interesting heresies can be found in "Darwinian Heresies" by Abigail Lustig, Robert J. Richards, and Michael Ruse. A copy should be available at most university libraries. -- Hrimpurstala ( talk) 23:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
He used larmarckism instead of natural selection (last sentence of intro)? Isn't NS the process, and Lam a possible mechanism by which NS can occur? 141.14.245.244 ( talk) 11:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
"Although Spencer lost his Christian faith as a teenager and later rejected any 'anthropomorphic' conception of the Deity, he nonetheless held fast to this conception at an almost sub-conscious level."
How would the author know this??
"At the same time, however, he owed far more than he would ever acknowledge to Positivism, in particular in its conception of a philosophical system as the unification of the various branches of scientific knowledge."
Again, the author is making unsubstantiated claims, apparently reading Spenser's mind.
This needs to be re-evaluated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.152.253.114 ( talk) 19:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
No harshness detected. The public can only know what Spencer expressed in words. Spencer’s private, unexpressed thoughts are nothing to us. This restriction was the reasonable basis of Behaviorism. Lestrade ( talk) 12:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)Lestrade
This article claims 1903 while the penguin sociology dictionary (2000) claims 1895. One is wrong. TheTyrant ( talk) 17:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)TheTyrant
The current version of the section on Social Darwinism is extremely POV, as it clearly prefers one source over the other. Basically it argues that Hofstadter is wrong and his opponents are right. How so, I wonder, when there is no source for that? Is it now consensus in the scientific community? Well then, present a source for it. Moreover, phrasings like "Hofstadter's Spencer" (only existed in his head?) further imply that Hofstadters interpretation is wrong. How do we know? There are different evaluations of Spencer's alleged Social Darwinism, we should include them both and treat them the same. Also "Hofstadter's rather selective quotations" uses weasel words and claims without source that his quotations are indeed selective. This looks like original research to me. What is more, I have a further source claiming he is basically the founder of Social Darwinism. (Young, Robert M. "Herbert Spencer and 'Inevitable' Progress." Victorian Values: Personalities and Perspectives in Nineteenth-Century Society. Ed. Gordon Marsden. London and New York: Longman, 1998. 179-188.) I think the section needs more balance. Janfrie1988 ( talk) 13:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
I take issue with "superior physical force shapes history.[1". Show me where Spencer expresses such a view in primary resources. They are all available online. Spoiler alert, he never expressed such a view. Like so much of Wikipedia, the far left has taken over this page. This site used to be a great, albeit flawed, resource. Now it is just garbage.≈≈≈≈
This article has a strong pro-Spencer bias particularly in the Social Darwinism section, explained in part above by Janfrie1988. The article is obviously targeted by libertarians and "anarcho"-capitalists that are upset by Spencer's tainted image relating to his racism. In its current form the article is a lengthy piece of largely uncited propaganda and spencer worship. Synthetic philosophy, Sociology, Ethics, and Agnosticism should probably be removed due to their lack of citations and irrelevance. I hope other editors will assist me in improving the quality of this article and prevent further propagandizing. 76.103.255.121 ( talk) 17:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The article mentions that "Spencer adopted a utilitarian standard of ultimate value - the greatest happiness for the greatest number ...". This is perplexing for me, as Spencer clearly and repeatedly advocates the exact opposite: "...it follows that a specific idea of "greatest happiness" is for the present unattainable. It is not then to be wondered at, if Paleys and Benthams make vain attempts at a definition." Can anyone help clarifying this?
Spencer's Social Statics and the Data of Ethics clearly lay out his position: he was a believer in the ultimate goal of maximizing happiness, but thought that the consequentialist leanings of the utilitarians were self-defeating. But when J. S. Mill called him an anti-utilitarian, he was offended. So he was, in the language of the time, a 'universalistic hedonist.' Not sure how to sign off, but hope this suffices: 68.6.202.79 ( talk) 23:14, 18 October 2014 (UTC) cathy gere, ucsd
The opening paragraph has unusual and inappropriate commentary on the worth of Spencer's writing and importance. Half the material before the TOC is various people's opinions about how important he was. The reader is left with no clear idea of what he actually contributed, and then the article immediately devolves into several biographical paragraphs -- which also start by saying almost nothing about his beliefs/works. The Life section goes on for 350 words before explaining much of anything about his thinking.
The article needs to be much more focused on who he was and what he thought. And not rambling biographic material such as ... "Members included physicist-philosopher John Tyndall and Darwin's cousin, the banker and biologist Sir John Lubbock. There were also some quite significant satellites such as liberal clergyman Arthur Stanley, the Dean of Westminster; and guests such as Charles Darwin and Hermann von Helmholtz were entertained from time to time."
"quite significant satellites"? Original research, essay language, uncited, unencyclopedic.
Leptus Froggi ( talk) 08:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
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This is the first sentence from the article: "Herbert Spencer (27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903) was an English philosopher, biologist, anthropologist, and sociologist famous for his hypothesis of social Darwinism whereby superior physical force shapes history."
And it includes a reference to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, however this statement contradicts what is said in the SEP article. Here are a few excerpts from the SEP article on Herbert Spencer:
"Herbert Spencer (1820–1903) is typically, though quite wrongly, considered a coarse social Darwinist."
"Spencer distanced himself decidedly from social Darwinism, showing why Moore’s infamous judgment was misplaced."
"Not only was Spencer less than a “social Darwinist” as we have come to understand social Darwinism, but he was also less unambiguously libertarian as some, such as Eric Mack and Tibor Machan, have made him out to be."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spencer/
185.252.183.159 ( talk) 17:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
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Do we really need this sentence?
"Herbert Spencer should not be confused with Edmund Spenser, the British poet."
Or, I guess, with Diana Spencer, the maiden name of the late princess, or Wlter Baldwin Spencer, an Australian anthropologist.... -- Christofurio 20:12, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
"They included, among other things, his ideas on evolution, which he saw as leading to an era of greater interpersonal cooperation."
It should be noted that Spencer's idea of interpersonal cooperation meant the poor and working classes knowing their place and sticking to it.-- Pariah 07:12, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
This is an area where there is much confusion, and there are many reasons, often due to impartial POV of various biographers of Spencer. Three things that should be considered: 1. His belief in natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. 2. His early political radicalism. 3. Later political de-radicalism. These ideas were not equivalent and Spencer's thoughts did change, so the desire to tie some supporters of Spencer with other ideas he had (or was accused of having) is one of the more notorious acts of some writers on the subject.
It is #2 where he was influential among Individualist Anarchists and radicals like H.L. Menken. #1 where his ideas were perceived by others as promoting government control, such as by Justice Holmes. Many of those that trumpeted these ideas (like Holmes and other eugenecists) were bitterly hostile to Spencer's political thought. And #3 is seen through his abandoning his radical thoughts like dropping his "The Right to Ignore the State" from later editions of Social Statics.
Note: None of this is "original work" and is commonly known among those who compare the literature on Spencer. Carltonh 00:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
You have to pay for full access (unless your college subscribes) but Questia gives Free table of contents and free first page of every chapter, plus publishing details. That's a lot of free info available NOWHERE else and essential if you are going to try for inter-library loan. It's like listing a publisher which mamy articles do--yet the publisher sells the book for $$$ and gives little or nothing away for free. Rjensen 16:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph of this section strikes me as not only not holding together well, but also as misconstruing Spencer's ideas (something apparently very easy to do).
It's the last sentence that's the real trouble:
"Some may believe in Spencer's survival of the fittest within the confines of a natural rights philosophy, but others have rejected his ideas of linear progress and replaced them with the paradigm shift ideas of Thomas Kuhn."
There's allegedly a parallel between "believing in Spencer's survival of the fittest" and "linear progress," but I don't see it. Besides, the phrase "believing in Spencer's" anything strikes me as bad encyclopedia style.
"Survival of the fittest" is the same principle as what Darwin called "natural selection." Almost EVERYONE "believes" in it to some degree, excepting (of course) modern-day creationists. The article, alas, does NOT explain that it is the identical concept as Darwin's, or that Spencer applied it to many levels of organization, from organism through functional practices to social structures. This sentence suggests that "Spencer's" principle is different from Darwin's, which it isn't. Spencer merely applied it to a different set of data. Further, it suggests that this principle (because of the parallelism with the second half of the sentence) amounts to a unilinear concept of evolution. Which it doesn't. Spencer used natural selection theory to explain evolutionary processes. They are not the same.
There's something worse here, though. Can Spencer's thought really be considered a theory of unilinear progress? Since his mental picture of evolution is one of growing complexity, with diversity and integration going on at once, how does this paint a "linear view"? It doesn't, so far as I can tell, except in some of his readers, who probably held less sophisticated notions. And from what I recall, Spencer explicitly denied that societies, for instance, must go through every stage of his evolutionary growth. He realized that many social groups, like most organisms, remain simple, "unevolved," and that societies can skip stages that he outlined at length in The Principles of Sociology. This means, to me, that Spencer explicitly foreswore the point here being applied "against" him.
Further, the idea of "paradigm shift" overview as an alternative to Spencer's -- what, his epistemology, view of science? -- doesn't tally well with the fact that many evolutionary epistemologists cite Spencer favorably. See Karl Popper's essay in "Objective Knowledge," for instance, or works by Radnitzky.
I move to strike the sentence in question, unless the original author can explain what it means, and revise to suit any criticism that I've made here that appear to others as meaningful.
NOTE: I will be putting up a whole batch of references in a week or so. There's a huge literature out there on Spencer, and this batch does not give fair representation to that extensive work.
ANOTHER NOTE: There are a few phrases in this article that strike me as quotations from scholarly work, without citing which work (for instance, sociologist Jonathan Turner's line about Darwin being a "biological Spencerian").
I moved anon comment from main text to talk.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That Spencer was an opponent of imperialism is not generally agreed upon. In his "Social Statistics" from 1850 Spencer writes that some sections of humanity may be exterminated for the greater good, ie if it benefits the "civilising" colonial project of white European upper-class men. Someone who knows more about Spencer and has read more of his works than I have should edit this article! For those of you who can read Swedish I would recommend Sven Lindqvist's book "Utrota Varenda Jävel
This is typical Richard Hofstadter' hogwash (see the work of Richard C. Bannister for example). Thus removed. Intangible2.0 23:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
"However, to regard Spencer as any kind of Darwinian, even of the 'Social' variety, is a gross distortion. ..." Isn't this whole paragraph a "gross distortion" of Social Darwinism? Social Darwinism was NOT open-ended, as proper biological darwinism is. Social Darwinists took advantage of the ambiguity in Spencer's phrase "survival of the fittest": were they fit because they survived, or did they survive because they were fit? More important, "fittest" was often equated with "best," and the rest is eugenics. This paragraph evinces a lack of understanding of Social Darwinism. Can it be edited or removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.113.94 ( talk) 17:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence of this paragraph—"Spencer created the Social Darwinist model that applied the law of the survival of the fittest to society"—is still misleading and still leaves the reader with the incorrect impression that Spencer is the "father" of Social Darwinism or that he is the founder of the Social Darwinist movement. The rest of the paragraph tries to dispel this impression but not strongly enough. As a result, some readers remain confused about the whole issue. See for example the question asked at the bottom of the Discussion page, under the heading Contradiction. Worse, once it is accepted—or even suspected—that Spencer is at the roots of Social Darwinism, it is all too easy to claim that he is subsequently responsible for eugenics, Nazism, ethnic cleansing, and so on. In other words, it becomes too easy to once again vilify Spencer. As an aside, this is Darwin's year. Why not take the opportunity to rehabilitate Spencer with some strong scholarship? Is it not time to recognize that his enormous work—however flawed it may have been—contributed to the advancement of science? Nicolas Mertens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.127.124 ( talk) 13:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Spencer was a racist/believed certain races were inferior to others? I've heard this claim many times but never seen it verified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobinReborn ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
"To your remaining question respecting the intermarriage of foreigners and Japanese, which you say is "now very much agitated among our scholars and politicians" and which you say is "one of the most difficult problems," my reply is that, as rationally answered, there is no difficulty at all. It should be positively forbidden. It is not at root a question of social philosophy. It is at root a question of biology. There is abundant proof, alike furnished by the intermarriages of human races and by the interbreeding of animals, that when the varieties mingled diverge beyond a certain slight degree the result is inevitably a bad one in the long run. I have myself been in the habit of looking at the evidence bearing on this matter for many years past, and my conviction is based on numerous facts derived from numerous sources. This conviction I have within the last half-hour verified, for I happen to be staying in the country with a gentleman who is well known and has had much experience respecting the interbreeding of cattle; and he has just, on inquiry, fully confirmed my belief that when, say of the different varieties of sheep, there is an interbreeding of those which are widely unlike, the result, especially in the second generation, is a bad one—there arise an incalculable mixture of traits, and what may be called a chaotic constitution. And the same thing happens among human beings—the Eurasians in India, the half-breeds in America, show this. The physiological basis of this experience appears to be that any one variety of creature in course of many generations acquires a certain constitutional adaptation to its particular form of life, and every other variety similarly acquires its own special adaptation. The consequence is that, if you mix the constitution of two widely divergent varieties which have severally become adapted to widely divergent modes of life, you get a constitution which is adapted to the mode of life of neither—a constitution which will not work properly, because it is not fitted for any set of conditions whatever. By all means, therefore, peremptorily interdict marriages of Japanese with foreigners. I have for the reasons indicated entirely approved of the regulations which have been established in America for restraining the Chinese immigration, and had I the power I would restrict them to the smallest possible amount, my reasons for this decision being that one of two things must happen. If the Chinese are allowed to settle extensively in America, they must either, if they remain unmixed, form a subject race standing in the position, if not of slaves, yet of a class approaching to slaves; or if they mix they must form a bad hybrid. In either case, supposing the immigration to be large, immense social mischief must arise, and eventually social disorganization. The same thing will happen if there should be any considerable mixture of European or American races with the Japanese." From the Appendix of Hearn's "Japan, An Attempt at Interpretation" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.120.232.228 ( talk) 11:22, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Could the contributor of the information about Appleton's print runs please contact me. I am working on The Origin of Species as a book and interested in comparing print runs. Appleton also published Origin. I am so pleased to have found this information in the Spencer article in Wikipedia. Well done. Please contact. -- Cornflwr 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Cornflwr - for the Appleton print numbers please see the introduction to Robert G. Perrin, Herbert Spencer: A Primary and Secondary Bibliography (Academic Press, 1993). Good luck with your project. -- 202.84.252.18 08:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
So even though Spencer was admittedly an agnostic and an opponent of theology he gets described as a deist without any reference to the text of one of his works (let alone a page number)??
And even though the contributor acknowledges he would not describe himself as a Comtean positivist he gets described as one, again without refs? Don't forget he wrote a paper on 'Reasons for dissenting from the philosophy of M. Comte'.
Much of this reads like contributor's opinion, not balanced judgement. What's needed (and it may be asking too much, especially with Spencer!) is more quotations and references to the (voluminous) literature. As an illustration of my theme, Spencer actually used 'struggle for existence' BEFORE the Origin in Social Statics 1851 (p322)!!
With strange people like Spencer and Wallace (and they are strange!) it pays to give a neutral account and let readers make their own minds up. Macdonald-ross 13:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The entry doesn't actually claim that Spencer was a deist. What it does claim is that he was influenced by deism, which shaped his ideas in much the same way that natural theology can be said to have shaped Charles Darwin's. Spencer was no more a deist than Darwin was a natural theologian, but these traditions of thought are important for understanding the ideas of these thinkers. The references given at the end of the entry, especially the paper by Paul Elliot, support this interpretation of Spencer.
A similar point applies to the question of Spencer's positivism. It is true that he denied that Comte had any influence on him, but many of those closest to him during his intellectually formative years - the 1850s - were Comte's most prominent British disciples. This is especially true of George Eliot and G.H. Lewes. Given Spencer's lack of formal education and tendency to acquire ideas from conversations with his friends and acquaintances it is inconceivable that Comte's philosophy did not exert some influence on his thought. In this respect Spencer protested too much, as he jealously aimed to guard his own supposed originality.
Spencer's "Reasons for Dissenting from the Philosophy of M. Comte" was written because he had become alarmed that he was widely viewed as being merely yet another one of Comte's British disciples. In the essay he concentrates on some relatively minor differences from Comte while neglecting to acknowledge that his conception of a philosophical system - a grand unifying theory that builds on the results of each of the special sciences - was the same as Comte's. In short, Spencer was trying to do what Comte had done, but was trying to do it better, particularly by using more up-to-date biology. The are also clear positivist influences in such matters as his discussion of the laws of nature (originally part of the First Princples but later published as a separate essay) and in his epistemology. As with the influence of deism, the influence of positivism is supported by the secondary literature.
Spencer's philosophy has been widely misunderstood and his reputation as "the father of social Darwinism" is only slowly being disabused. By drawing on the most up-to-date scholarship the entry aims to provide a more accurate assessment of Spencer's place in Victorian thought.
-- MThought 03:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
To user MThought: Wikipedia articles cannot represent points of view that are not neutral. Any claim like "Spencer's thought was essentially a combination of X and Y" is a no go: first, "essentially" is a weasel word and second, we need to qualify this claim somehow, perhaps by referencing one author's interpretation of Spencer's work, which would mean paraphrasing an expert's thesis or something along these lines and by explaining what "combine" means in this context.
Crucially, the claims in the article about Deism and Spencer are not concrete enough to be falsifiable. In other words the writing is not very good. For instance I have no idea what this means:
In essence Spencer’s philosophical vision was formed by a combination of Deism and Positivism. On the one hand, he had imbibed something of eighteenth century Deism from his father and other members of the Derby Philosophical Society and from books like George Combe’s immensely popular The Constitution of Man (1828). This treated the world as a cosmos of benevolent design, and the laws of nature as the decrees of a 'Being transcendentally kind.' Natural laws were thus the statutes of a well governed universe that had been decreed by the Creator with the intention of promoting human happiness.
What does "combine" mean? What does "imbibe" mean? What does "this" (subject of 3rd sentence) mean? I have no idea where the fourth sentence belongs.
BTW if one really is a positivist and a deist then one ends up believing in God but thinks God is fake, which strikes me as a somewhat suspect frame of mind. This is because a deist thinks God can be perceived directly by reason but a positivist thinks that the only authentic knowledge is knowledge that can be verified by the scientific method. Since no serious scientific experiment has ever claimed to prove the existence of God, we must conclude that knowledge of God is inauthentic, i.e. fake. Now maybe some Deists did believe this, but did any of them admit it out loud? Mistercupcake 22:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This article needs attention. It is POV, the tone is wrong, and is heavily padded. In particular the reference to Lamarckian evolution makes it sound like Lamarck's theory is part of the current scientific consensus, but no mainstream scientist believes this. Any opinions on whether to add a "needs an expert" tag? Mistercupcake 13:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Though much of this article is surely interesting, portions seem more like individual judgments rather than general explication. The section on the Synthetic Philosophy, in particular, should have more discussion of the content of the books (and their preparation and reception) than on general interpretation of the philosopher's background and meaning.
Is it to be counted as odd that one can read this article, long as it is, and (unless one looks at the bibliography) not gain an idea of how Spencer organized his material? What is the gist of the two sections of "First Principles"? What did Spencer aim to accomplish by beginning each subsequent treatise with "The Data of" and "The Inductions of" each discipline?
Incidentally, regarding Lamarckianism, there are indeed scientists who are reviving some quasi-Lamarckian ideas, particularly in reference to epigenetics. This does not mean, however, that this work should be cited in reference to Spencer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wirkman ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Quote: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Did Herbert Spencer in fact say this? Bclater ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Bclater ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This point is of no relevance to Spencer's biography or influence. If it is to be on Wikipedia, that is on the reincarnation & co pages but not here. Imposing it here no less than spam. -- Bombastus ( talk) 15:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The Hermetic Teachings have no fault to find with Herbert Spencer's basic principle which postulates the existence of an "Infinite and Eternal Energy, from which all things proceed." In face, the Hermetics recognize in Spencer's philosophy the highest outside statement of the workings of the Natural Laws that have ever been promulgated, and they believe Spencer to have been a reincarnation of an ancient philosopher who dwelt in ancient Egypt thousands of years ago, and who later incarnated as Heraclitus, the Grecian philosopher who lived B.C. 500. And they regard his statement of the "Infinite and Eternal Energy" as directly in the line of the Hermetic Teachings, always with the addition of their own doctrine that his "Energy" is the Energy of the Mind of THE ALL. With the Master-Key of the Hermetic Philosophy, the student of Spencer will be able to unlock many doors of the inner philosophical conceptions of the great English philosopher, whose work shows the results of the preparation of his previous incarnations. His teachings regarding Evolution and Rhythm are in almost perfect agreement with the Hermetic Teachings regarding the Principle of Rhythm.
The section on Spencer's General Influence details the impact of his ideas on the fields of Anthropology, Town Planning, Ecology, Freud, Logical Positivism, & Sociobiology: All of which without a single citation. Yet my attempts to introduce a reference - supported by a reliable source - to his undeniable influence on modern Hermeticism, have been repeatedly removed, with no more justification than "this belongs in hermeticism - not here". I have yet to hear a single cogent argument as to why his influence on hermeticism should not be recognised. Josephus ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is pretty bad at sourcing the claims in it. I've added some cite tags in the life section, but the whole article should really be worked through, with sources added for the many undocumented claims in it. -- Kristjan Wager ( talk) 13:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I recently added a photograph of Spencer's gravesite, taken about 20 years ago. It's not a particularly artistic picture, but I thought it might be better than nothing at all. Perhaps someone can find a better photo than the one I contributed. - As I wrote in my edit summary, I'm not a regular contributor to this article, I'm just passing through. Astrochemist ( talk) 13:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
"Social Statics had been the work of a radical democrat "
WRONG of course. It was the work of a radical libertarian. Which is something the marxists who edit wikipedia would never acknowledge, right ? 190.191.46.31 ( talk) 23:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The Social Darwinism article lists Herbert Spencer as a founder of Social Darwinism, but this article claims that "...to regard Spencer as any kind of Darwinian, even of the 'Social' variety, is a gross distortion." Which is the correct view? Any ideas? -- Jayson Virissimo ( talk) 09:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Spencer was influential among social evolutionists. However, it is clearly incorrect to describe him as a social darwinist. There were "real" social darwinists, who tried applying darwinian theory to human populations (generally in classist, racists and theoretically flawed ways - to the extent that they ignored major tenants of darwinism). H. Spencer wasn't one of these, though. Rather, he couldn't have missused darwinian theory because he was never a true darwinist. I forget all of the details, but I believe that a useful account of Spencer's more interesting heresies can be found in "Darwinian Heresies" by Abigail Lustig, Robert J. Richards, and Michael Ruse. A copy should be available at most university libraries. -- Hrimpurstala ( talk) 23:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
He used larmarckism instead of natural selection (last sentence of intro)? Isn't NS the process, and Lam a possible mechanism by which NS can occur? 141.14.245.244 ( talk) 11:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
"Although Spencer lost his Christian faith as a teenager and later rejected any 'anthropomorphic' conception of the Deity, he nonetheless held fast to this conception at an almost sub-conscious level."
How would the author know this??
"At the same time, however, he owed far more than he would ever acknowledge to Positivism, in particular in its conception of a philosophical system as the unification of the various branches of scientific knowledge."
Again, the author is making unsubstantiated claims, apparently reading Spenser's mind.
This needs to be re-evaluated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.152.253.114 ( talk) 19:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
No harshness detected. The public can only know what Spencer expressed in words. Spencer’s private, unexpressed thoughts are nothing to us. This restriction was the reasonable basis of Behaviorism. Lestrade ( talk) 12:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)Lestrade
This article claims 1903 while the penguin sociology dictionary (2000) claims 1895. One is wrong. TheTyrant ( talk) 17:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)TheTyrant
The current version of the section on Social Darwinism is extremely POV, as it clearly prefers one source over the other. Basically it argues that Hofstadter is wrong and his opponents are right. How so, I wonder, when there is no source for that? Is it now consensus in the scientific community? Well then, present a source for it. Moreover, phrasings like "Hofstadter's Spencer" (only existed in his head?) further imply that Hofstadters interpretation is wrong. How do we know? There are different evaluations of Spencer's alleged Social Darwinism, we should include them both and treat them the same. Also "Hofstadter's rather selective quotations" uses weasel words and claims without source that his quotations are indeed selective. This looks like original research to me. What is more, I have a further source claiming he is basically the founder of Social Darwinism. (Young, Robert M. "Herbert Spencer and 'Inevitable' Progress." Victorian Values: Personalities and Perspectives in Nineteenth-Century Society. Ed. Gordon Marsden. London and New York: Longman, 1998. 179-188.) I think the section needs more balance. Janfrie1988 ( talk) 13:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
I take issue with "superior physical force shapes history.[1". Show me where Spencer expresses such a view in primary resources. They are all available online. Spoiler alert, he never expressed such a view. Like so much of Wikipedia, the far left has taken over this page. This site used to be a great, albeit flawed, resource. Now it is just garbage.≈≈≈≈
This article has a strong pro-Spencer bias particularly in the Social Darwinism section, explained in part above by Janfrie1988. The article is obviously targeted by libertarians and "anarcho"-capitalists that are upset by Spencer's tainted image relating to his racism. In its current form the article is a lengthy piece of largely uncited propaganda and spencer worship. Synthetic philosophy, Sociology, Ethics, and Agnosticism should probably be removed due to their lack of citations and irrelevance. I hope other editors will assist me in improving the quality of this article and prevent further propagandizing. 76.103.255.121 ( talk) 17:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The article mentions that "Spencer adopted a utilitarian standard of ultimate value - the greatest happiness for the greatest number ...". This is perplexing for me, as Spencer clearly and repeatedly advocates the exact opposite: "...it follows that a specific idea of "greatest happiness" is for the present unattainable. It is not then to be wondered at, if Paleys and Benthams make vain attempts at a definition." Can anyone help clarifying this?
Spencer's Social Statics and the Data of Ethics clearly lay out his position: he was a believer in the ultimate goal of maximizing happiness, but thought that the consequentialist leanings of the utilitarians were self-defeating. But when J. S. Mill called him an anti-utilitarian, he was offended. So he was, in the language of the time, a 'universalistic hedonist.' Not sure how to sign off, but hope this suffices: 68.6.202.79 ( talk) 23:14, 18 October 2014 (UTC) cathy gere, ucsd
The opening paragraph has unusual and inappropriate commentary on the worth of Spencer's writing and importance. Half the material before the TOC is various people's opinions about how important he was. The reader is left with no clear idea of what he actually contributed, and then the article immediately devolves into several biographical paragraphs -- which also start by saying almost nothing about his beliefs/works. The Life section goes on for 350 words before explaining much of anything about his thinking.
The article needs to be much more focused on who he was and what he thought. And not rambling biographic material such as ... "Members included physicist-philosopher John Tyndall and Darwin's cousin, the banker and biologist Sir John Lubbock. There were also some quite significant satellites such as liberal clergyman Arthur Stanley, the Dean of Westminster; and guests such as Charles Darwin and Hermann von Helmholtz were entertained from time to time."
"quite significant satellites"? Original research, essay language, uncited, unencyclopedic.
Leptus Froggi ( talk) 08:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
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This is the first sentence from the article: "Herbert Spencer (27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903) was an English philosopher, biologist, anthropologist, and sociologist famous for his hypothesis of social Darwinism whereby superior physical force shapes history."
And it includes a reference to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, however this statement contradicts what is said in the SEP article. Here are a few excerpts from the SEP article on Herbert Spencer:
"Herbert Spencer (1820–1903) is typically, though quite wrongly, considered a coarse social Darwinist."
"Spencer distanced himself decidedly from social Darwinism, showing why Moore’s infamous judgment was misplaced."
"Not only was Spencer less than a “social Darwinist” as we have come to understand social Darwinism, but he was also less unambiguously libertarian as some, such as Eric Mack and Tibor Machan, have made him out to be."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spencer/
185.252.183.159 ( talk) 17:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)