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Apparenly we have disagreement what is "well referenced and relevant info" and what is WP:SYN
Let's look deeper in to it.
We have this text now:
In the third week of October 1939 there was a liquidation meeting with NKVD directed by lieutenant-colonel Jusimow, during which communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college and pointed them out to NKVD officers. All four were taken out, beaten and shot in the hallway while the NKVD orchestra was performing inside. Their names were: Henryk Różakolski, Jan Płończak (from the student Bratniak organization), Ludwik Płaczek, and Józef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their murdered colleagues.[26][27]
We have sources that this incident happened. Fine, no one is denying it. What we do not have is source linking this incident with the topic of this article, ghetto benches that is. Source number 26 does not even mention ghetto benches, link 27 is a dead link, which previously referenced that ghetto benches activists were persecuted under Soviets, but what is important, it does not talk about this particular incident. So we have perfect example of WP:SYNTHESIS here. Regards. M0RD00R ( talk) 19:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to explain my point again. There are two sources: one cited by Poeticbent (Chapter For the record of this talk page), that mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution). And there is another source about NKVD execution - it has all the fancy stuff, that is repeatedly inserted here by Piotrus and Poeticbent (like "orchestra playing" etc) BUT IT DOES NOT MENTION GHETTO BENCHES AT ALL. That is the problem. I ask to provide sources linking this particular incident (not persecution of ghetto benches activists in general) to ghetto benches, but time and time I get the WP:SYNTHESIS of both sources. M0RD00R ( talk) 22:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Boodlesthecat Meow? 00:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)"With the measure wherewith a man measures, shall he be measured", say the rabbis.47 Those who resort to violence become victims of violence. A wave of anti-German feelings swept through Poland six months before the outbreak of World War II, following the attacks on Jewish students by Danzig Nazis who tried to force Polish students to occupy "ghetto benches" at the Polytechnic.48 The writing on the wall was not read. Poland was weighed in the scales and found wanting.46
(Unindent) This is problematic largely because of language. I don't know Polish, and am having a bit of trouble. A long time ago when the non-English source policy was being developed, I argued vehemently for liberality and AGF using other languages. So it is only justice that it comes to bite me on the ass! :-). So bear with my errors. I found it not too easy to understand exactly what is at issue, exactly who says what, and I think there are accidental errors of footnoting on this talk page, where people ascibed material in one source to another! I am entirely confident that no one here would mistranslate. So I recommend that people at least very clearly label the sources at issue by name, and then say what the source says in English, and say what it is being used for in the article, and that we continue to all use the same identifying name. The Polish original can be helpful, and links would be good, but those are secondary. I've tried to write this so another non-Polish-speaker could find it helpful.
The two sources are:
M0RD00R brings up a sensible point, that we should beware of synthesis of the two sources, call them ZP and PL for short. PL "mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution)" , although it mentions the killing of Jan Naborczyk (and is so long that google only translates half of it for me), while ZP mentions the NKVD executions of four university antisemitic activists, but does not have the phrase "ghetto benches."
The question of what this article is about comes up here too. See my last response in the section above. The important thing is that we decide once and for all, for the whole article. If we use one definition in one place and one in another, chaos, editwarring, accusations and bad feelings are inevitable. For example "during which communist Jewish activists recognized four pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college" - which is in the article now and comes from ZP, could be acceptable if we use (c) above, in which case PL isn't really necessary, else probably not. On the other hand, if we use definition (a) it seems M0RD00R is right. We have to decide whether "ghetto benches" is necessary in a source, or only discrimination in universities, or antisemitism in universities. Hope this helps. Need to get some sleep! See you all tomorrow. John Z ( talk) 10:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
This source [3] has been repeatedly used in the article. My question is who is the author of the article? Do Wikipedia policies authorize sources with no authors? Tymek ( talk) 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Site is maintained by Adam Mickiewicz Institute, so reliability issue is not the concern. M0RD00R ( talk) 23:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Let me cite the policy "Items that are signed are preferable to unsigned articles". It is preffered that article would be sign but is not a must. I'm still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website M0RD00R ( talk) 09:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I'm citing WP:RS policy. And since You, Piotrus, introduced Diapozytyw webstite to this article [4] it would be very helpful if You put some effort into establishing of reliability of this source as well. Currently I'm a little bit busy in my real life, so a little help from You would be very appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance. P.S. Still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website. M0RD00R ( talk) 10:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What on earth does the statement
Afer Central Powers lost First World War, and the idea promoted by Jewish politician Max Bodenheimer of establishing of German dominated state on Polish inhabited territories where Jews would play decisive factor lost the chance to succed[7
have to do with this or any article? This is fringe, Jew baiting, offensive original research designed to blame Polish antisemitism on a arbitrarily chosen, largely unknown Jewish figure. This violates WP:OR and is offensive POV pushing of the worst kind. Please explain what relevance this has to this article. Boodlesthecat Meow? 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Didn't similar discrimination of students occur elsewhere? Ex. against Jews in Germany, or blacks in US? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus you are guessing it right. The quota criteria for Jewish students existed in United States as well. See Jewish_quota under United States and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States-- Molobo ( talk) 19:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 24.2 KB Gregkaye ( talk) 12:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ghetto benches article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Ghetto benches appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 October 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Apparenly we have disagreement what is "well referenced and relevant info" and what is WP:SYN
Let's look deeper in to it.
We have this text now:
In the third week of October 1939 there was a liquidation meeting with NKVD directed by lieutenant-colonel Jusimow, during which communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college and pointed them out to NKVD officers. All four were taken out, beaten and shot in the hallway while the NKVD orchestra was performing inside. Their names were: Henryk Różakolski, Jan Płończak (from the student Bratniak organization), Ludwik Płaczek, and Józef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their murdered colleagues.[26][27]
We have sources that this incident happened. Fine, no one is denying it. What we do not have is source linking this incident with the topic of this article, ghetto benches that is. Source number 26 does not even mention ghetto benches, link 27 is a dead link, which previously referenced that ghetto benches activists were persecuted under Soviets, but what is important, it does not talk about this particular incident. So we have perfect example of WP:SYNTHESIS here. Regards. M0RD00R ( talk) 19:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to explain my point again. There are two sources: one cited by Poeticbent (Chapter For the record of this talk page), that mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution). And there is another source about NKVD execution - it has all the fancy stuff, that is repeatedly inserted here by Piotrus and Poeticbent (like "orchestra playing" etc) BUT IT DOES NOT MENTION GHETTO BENCHES AT ALL. That is the problem. I ask to provide sources linking this particular incident (not persecution of ghetto benches activists in general) to ghetto benches, but time and time I get the WP:SYNTHESIS of both sources. M0RD00R ( talk) 22:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Boodlesthecat Meow? 00:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)"With the measure wherewith a man measures, shall he be measured", say the rabbis.47 Those who resort to violence become victims of violence. A wave of anti-German feelings swept through Poland six months before the outbreak of World War II, following the attacks on Jewish students by Danzig Nazis who tried to force Polish students to occupy "ghetto benches" at the Polytechnic.48 The writing on the wall was not read. Poland was weighed in the scales and found wanting.46
(Unindent) This is problematic largely because of language. I don't know Polish, and am having a bit of trouble. A long time ago when the non-English source policy was being developed, I argued vehemently for liberality and AGF using other languages. So it is only justice that it comes to bite me on the ass! :-). So bear with my errors. I found it not too easy to understand exactly what is at issue, exactly who says what, and I think there are accidental errors of footnoting on this talk page, where people ascibed material in one source to another! I am entirely confident that no one here would mistranslate. So I recommend that people at least very clearly label the sources at issue by name, and then say what the source says in English, and say what it is being used for in the article, and that we continue to all use the same identifying name. The Polish original can be helpful, and links would be good, but those are secondary. I've tried to write this so another non-Polish-speaker could find it helpful.
The two sources are:
M0RD00R brings up a sensible point, that we should beware of synthesis of the two sources, call them ZP and PL for short. PL "mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution)" , although it mentions the killing of Jan Naborczyk (and is so long that google only translates half of it for me), while ZP mentions the NKVD executions of four university antisemitic activists, but does not have the phrase "ghetto benches."
The question of what this article is about comes up here too. See my last response in the section above. The important thing is that we decide once and for all, for the whole article. If we use one definition in one place and one in another, chaos, editwarring, accusations and bad feelings are inevitable. For example "during which communist Jewish activists recognized four pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college" - which is in the article now and comes from ZP, could be acceptable if we use (c) above, in which case PL isn't really necessary, else probably not. On the other hand, if we use definition (a) it seems M0RD00R is right. We have to decide whether "ghetto benches" is necessary in a source, or only discrimination in universities, or antisemitism in universities. Hope this helps. Need to get some sleep! See you all tomorrow. John Z ( talk) 10:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
This source [3] has been repeatedly used in the article. My question is who is the author of the article? Do Wikipedia policies authorize sources with no authors? Tymek ( talk) 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Site is maintained by Adam Mickiewicz Institute, so reliability issue is not the concern. M0RD00R ( talk) 23:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Let me cite the policy "Items that are signed are preferable to unsigned articles". It is preffered that article would be sign but is not a must. I'm still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website M0RD00R ( talk) 09:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I'm citing WP:RS policy. And since You, Piotrus, introduced Diapozytyw webstite to this article [4] it would be very helpful if You put some effort into establishing of reliability of this source as well. Currently I'm a little bit busy in my real life, so a little help from You would be very appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance. P.S. Still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website. M0RD00R ( talk) 10:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What on earth does the statement
Afer Central Powers lost First World War, and the idea promoted by Jewish politician Max Bodenheimer of establishing of German dominated state on Polish inhabited territories where Jews would play decisive factor lost the chance to succed[7
have to do with this or any article? This is fringe, Jew baiting, offensive original research designed to blame Polish antisemitism on a arbitrarily chosen, largely unknown Jewish figure. This violates WP:OR and is offensive POV pushing of the worst kind. Please explain what relevance this has to this article. Boodlesthecat Meow? 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Didn't similar discrimination of students occur elsewhere? Ex. against Jews in Germany, or blacks in US? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus you are guessing it right. The quota criteria for Jewish students existed in United States as well. See Jewish_quota under United States and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States-- Molobo ( talk) 19:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 24.2 KB Gregkaye ( talk) 12:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Ghetto benches. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)