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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
All this mass reverting etc is getting boring, and the personal insults are childish. There is too much aggression here, and it is not helping clear thinking. What irritates me mostly is that it all seems to be about style. One person likes his wordings, the other his. (Or is it really a NPOV question whether the word "including" is used in the first paragraph?) Or again, one person wants much more data in the history section, the other wants it shorter. I agree with shorter, but that's a matter of taste. The point is, this is NOT a biased article, and as far as I can see, neither Heimdal's nor Gidonb's changes make it one. But maybe I am wrong. If so, could someone please list SOBERLY AND NEUTRALLY and above all BRIEFLY what the issues are where you think political bias is motivating the two sides of the argument. Then we can talk about the issues. -- Doric Loon 19:26, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I object to unprotecting this page, since Heimdal threatens to reintroduce his biased version again. gidonb 18:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb, please explain your objection. Sorry, but unless you don't explain reasonably why, in your view, the previous version was "extremely biased", there is no reason for keeping this page protected any further. - Heimdal 10:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else agree with Gidonb's view that the previous version of the page was "extremily biased"? If not, I think that we should regard Gidonb's view as a minority opinion, and move on. - Heimdal 15:09, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for Gidonb to give some reasonable explanations as to why, in his view, the previous version was "extremely biased". If he isn't able to explain his point, I think we should indeed go back to the previous version. Infamouskitty, the article is long, but certainly not overly long? In fact, the United States page is much longer. NB I shall be absent from here over the Whitsun holiday. I'll be back on Tuesday. - Heimdal 13:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I have spent one week here now, trying to defend myself against Gidonb's allegations that the version which I have been editing for weeks was "extremely biased". In all this week I have not seen one single effort by Gidonb to discuss his allegations with me. I give Gidonb two more days to make his point here. If by Tuesday he has failed to do so, I'll ask an administrator to unprotect the article, and revert Gidonb's edits. If Gidonb tries to revert back, I'll ask for protection of *my* version this time. - Heimdal 15:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Also, I'm considering to start an arbitration procedure against Gidonb for intentionally vandalising the Germany page. Because if you put all his edits together - the indiscriminate deletions, the removal of images, the non-sensical changes to the structure of the article, etc - they do de facto amount to an act of vandalism. - Heimdal 19:02, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Zionist needs to be banned from editing this page. Or what do you say, Gustav and Heimdal? Should we go to the Israel article and make it primarily an article about the Jewish ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of the Palestinians? Perhaps the United States should mostly deal with the genocide on native Americans, Africans and Abu Ghraib, preferably with a lot of the well-known pictures from the camp? anonymous comment by User:83.109.147.244
This is just silly (I just came here for wondering about the protection notice). Nobody can say WP is trying to hush up the holocaust. We have Nazi Germany, Holocaust, why, we have Category:Holocaust, containing six subcategories, and more than 100 individual articles. This, however is the article on Germany, the present-day state and its history. The Nazis dominated, what, 12 years of the 1200 years treated in the history section. that's 1%. already, the "Third Reich" section takes up about 20% of the history section, which is arguably pov, but obviously, it's not about any old 1% of German history, but a very decisive 1%, plus it's relatively recent history, so I'd say its fine to blow it out of (strictly temporal) proportion by a factor 10 or 20. And of course the Third Reich section should mention the holocaust. And guess what - that's it. The rest of the article should be allowed to treat lots of unrelated things in peace. dab (ᛏ) 11:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, the issue is not whether the article should mention the Holocaust. Of course it should. What angers me is that Gidonb has deleted half the page and removed every image that stood in his way before the article was protected. I think that Gidonb's deletions are totally unjustified, and I'm still waiting for Gidonb to explain his point. - Heimdal 13:56, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see the Holocaust against the Palestinians mentioned in the Israel article! 83.109.156.2
I don't edit the Israel article. I leave it to the crowd over there to decide what should be mentioned in the Israel article and what not. This article is about Germany. Nobody in his or her right mind can deny that the Holocaust happened. It is therefore right to mention it here, for the sake of honesty and of historical accuracy. - Heimdal 10:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I see -- I didn't follow the discussion, and was distracted by the anonymous holocaust rant. Now correct me, but the article seems to have been protected by an admin involved in editing disputes here, and he seems to have reverted before protecting. I consider this rather bad form, admins involved in disputes should ask for protection on RfP like everyone else. I think I can take it upon myself to unprotect the article. Of course, if the edit war continues, it will have to be protected again, blindly, i.e. all parties have an interest to reach some sort of compromise rather than keeping reverting. dab (ᛏ) 15:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is the subject religion a subsection of the section culture? I also disagree with the subject of military as a subsection of politics. Both religion and military deserve their own sections. I propose an immediate change of the structure. Foreign relations can be a subsection of politics Andries 16:10, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, I regard Gidonb's edits as wilful vandalism, would you agree? Anyway, the page has been unprotected right now, and I have reverted Gidonb's edits. Gidonb is asked to discuss his objections with me on this talk page. - Heimdal 17:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb's edits were for the most part deletions, as you had rightly observed yourself. I ask you to help improve the Germany page, Andries. (But without calling the deletion squad, please). - Heimdal 17:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Germans continue to be concerned about a relatively high level of unemployment; however, they are generally unwilling to conceed to labour concessions such as longer working hours.
I think you are quoting from the "Social issues" section, right? That section was added to the article some weeks ago by User:Reboot, who also wrote the main article Social issues in Germany. The only thing I contributed to the section was the image of Kreuzberg, actually. I don't agree with everything that Reboot wrote. But I left it stay anyway, because of the effort he/she had made. Reboot told me that he/she was an American who had lived for some time in Germany. - Heimdal 17:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
seeing that the reverting has started already, let me say that I recommend that Heimdal splits his edits into several parts, arguing each point separately, rather than just reverting to an old version. That way, his opponents in turn will have to argue each point separately. It is necessary to discuss things here on talk. Just reverting or calling vandalism is not acceptable. You need to carve out a compromise, but before you can do that, you need to establish what exaclty are the disputed points. dab (ᛏ) 17:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree. I believe Heimdal's umpteenth mass-reverting of our edits is against the rules at en.wikipedia and against your recommendation. I also find it very unpleasant to discuss matters with him beacuse of his rude language. I would like more people to be involved in this process. gidonb 17:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I've asked User:DBachmann to unprotect, because you have not even cared to discuss your allegations with me, Gidonb. Anyway. Can we discuss now without you reverting the page once again? - Heimdal 17:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me you started mass-reverting the page. Also the fact that Dbachmann unprotected the page at your request does not mean you can mass revert it. According to his recommendations, I would say the opposite is true. gidonb 17:58, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
This mass-reverting is unacceptable. I have protected the page. Mackensen (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I will start an arbitration procedure against Gidonb for wilfully vandalising the Germany page. See you there Gidonb. - Heimdal 18:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how deleting half the page, removing images, and giving the article a structure which does not make sense to anyone should be an "improvement", Gidonb. I have enough evidence to prove that your edits were not made with goodwill. - Heimdal 18:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
And what is more, Gidonb. Not one word in the Third Reich section was written by me. That's still the version by User:Luis rib, actually. I didn't delete anything there. Your accusations are totally absurd. - Heimdal 18:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
You deleted the genocides against Roma and Slavs many times times, in the past and today twice. gidonb 18:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. I've never deleted anything regarding the Holocaust. Why should I? I'm not the kind of person you're trying to make of me. Do you think that because I'm German, I'm a Nazi? No, I'm German, but I'm not a Nazi. It may surprise you, Gidonb, but I didn't revert the page because of your edits to the Holocaust. I reverted the page because you have deleted far too many things, which had nothing to do with History, and which would have been too tiresome for me to restore them all. - Heimdal 19:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
So not wrong, but right. You did delete these genocides many times and for that matter bias the Germany page time and again. Also, I demand that you apologize for numerous times associating me with this ridiculous allegation. I never accused you or anyone for that matter of being a Nazi. This is a totally disgusting accusation. gidonb 19:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
can you please stop bickering about the various holocausts on this page? Your main concern should be to get some sort of compromise so that we can unprotect this page for everybody else to edit. This is a long article about a notable state, and it should not be protected longer than absolutely necessary. So please agree not to touch the holocaust stuff without prior discussion here, if necessary doing a poll about it. Just propose variant wordings of the section here, so everybody can vote about it. If necessary, create variant subpages. sheesh, assume some good faith, both of you, and some confidence that the fate of the Germany article lies not in your hands exclusively. You are not the only editors on Wikipedia you know.
Gidonb, you should understand that Heimdal is frustrated because the page was protected in his face, twice. Also, as you are a "long-time contributor", you know very well that Heimdal's edits are not considered "vandalism", so please don't call them that, you'll only annoy him more. Heimdal, you should understand that you cannot just summarily revert, but have to argue your points individually.
dab
(ᛏ) 06:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Under his leader leadership Germany started the T-4 Euthanasia Program in 1939 that secretly killed mentally disabled individuals without consent of their family. Nazi-Germany from 1941 to 1945 industrially murdered six million Jews plus additional groups like the Roma in the Holocaust. They also persecuted homosexuals, and communists. Thousands of Soviet POWs died through deliberate neglect and murder.
Dbachmann, I agree with you absolutely. If it's all about the right wording of the Holocaust part (an issue of particular concern for Gidonb), I'm ready to discuss it here on this talk page. What I'm *not* ready to accept, however, are the indiscriminate deletions that Gidonb has made in virtually every section of the article, the removal of images, the ridiculous structure that Gidonb has imposed upon this article (Religion a subsection of Culture, which in turn is a subsection of Population, and other such nonsense) - not to mention his totally absurd accusation that the article was "extremely biased". I'm still ready to put this case to the arbitration committee if necessary. - Heimdal 08:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, the six million murdered in the holocaust do not include the other populations, BUT RATHER these are assessed at an additional 6 million, precisely as it says on the Germany page. gidonb 12:01, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Sure, ok look: Heimdal, will you agree to make individual edits, one for each section/point you think was deleted without justification? And gidonb, will you agree to address these edits one by one, giving a reason for each one if you revert them? If you agree on this, the edit war will be contained to the "third Reich" section, which on this article is after all only a short historical summary. Will you also agree to not edit the Third Reich subsection directly (I am talking to gidonb and Heimdal)? Either let other editors follow up on your suggestions (your edits only have a chance of surviving if they get some consensus anyway), or until you can agree on a compromise version? In that case I think we could unprotect. Switching to and fro between antagonistic versions is totally unproductive, you need to find common ground step by step. Concerning the holocaust, just copy information from the specialized articles: These have been fought over in detail, and there is no point in repeating the same disputes here. dab (ᛏ) 13:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
from Holocaust:
so could we say, based on this,
we really shouldn't go into more detail than this, and these seem to be the numbers people agreed on on Holocaust. The Holocaust article treats the Jewish victims together with the 'gentile' ones. dab (ᛏ) 13:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Dab, I could live with most of that phrasing, except for knocking a million of the holocaust and the other genocides. Only very early research estimated the number of holocaust victims at 5 million (please follow the link in the document you refered to). The perpetrators, victims and current research estimate it at around 6 million. I also insist on the active phrasing, but will do with your compromised term. I believe a Roma person will just like me look to see if the Roma holocaust is mentioned in the Germany article, and excluding this is a disgrace for the English language Wikipedia. Hence my insistance. I believe one picture representing all genocides is appropriate. If this is indeed settled we will have to turn to the other repetitive and lengthy phrasing of German history, excessive and double pictures and the excessive amnount of first level titles, which I fixed in my recent edits. gidonb 13:49, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Part I
I'm currently making a list of the major deletions and changes which Gidonb has made on May 6th. This is very tiresome, because it appears that Gidonb has made more than 50 edits in one single evening. Anyway, here is the first batch.
In the same "Culture" section, Gidonb also deletes the following:
So this is the first batch of Gidonb's deletions which I've put on my list. More of the same tomorrow. - Heimdal 15:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I fully stand behind these and other improvements I have made to the article. I am one of many who think that this article is way to detailed for a country's main entry. I hope Heimdal will put more of my shortenings to discussion WITH THE COMPLETE EDIT SUMMARIES, as, where included, the above deletions illustrate the thorough thought, detail and effort I made in getting back to the basics one would expect to find in a country's main entry. gidonb 16:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
And anyway, we don't need your "shortening" here. The Germany page is a competitive 47KB long, as compared to the 60KB of the United States page. But I really don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can always go to the United States article and start your destruction work over there. - Heimdal 16:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Andries, but who accused me of editing an "extremely biased" article, and who tried to badmouth me on this talk page in the first place? - Heimdal 16:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I am still waiting for Heimdal's apologies for insult after insult. Also I insist that I will not be part of the title, when we deal with the shortening in the article, because others participated. I can and will not claim all the credit. Also, I nowhere claimed that my only interest is the Holocaust. Yes, I am Jewish, but I have many interests. Also in this respect, my insistance was with including the other genocides. I think after apologies we can get down to the issues. gidonb 17:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Apologise for what, Gidonb. Did you ever apologise to me? Also, it's not true that "others participated" in your destruction work. I've gone through the edits, and what I can say for sure is that the destruction was done by you alone. Yes, I think you're Jewish. But certainly you're not the only Jewish person on Wikipedia. And I've never seen anyone else make such a big fuss about the wording of the Holocaust here but you alone. - Heimdal 17:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I invite everyone to read through the edit history, Heimdal's remarks above and the rest of the page, including the poll in which everyone sided to have the history section shortened. gidonb 18:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
The poll is old, Gidonb. Consensus shifts. - Heimdal 18:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
That is your opinion. Your insults and the constant reverting of the title of this section makes discussion rather impossible. I was not the only one to shorten the article. gidonb 18:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb, it can't be the aim of a poll to put straightjackets upon those who actually work on the article, do we agree? But I don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can move over to the United States page, which is much longer than this article ever was, without anyone over there making a great fuss about it. Do your patriotic duty, Gidonb! Be a man! - Heimdal 18:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I reject the way Heimdal talks. Also, I disagree that this article belongs only to Germans and those in the US should edit the US article. All Wikipedia articles belong to everyone. Also I believe that certain sections should receive more attention, for example the large moslim community in Germany which received far less attention than the "growing" Jewish population in Germany. gidonb 18:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I think I react the way I educate my children to do: with maximum self-constraint. As to your proposal, yes why not? Sorry but I do not take any joy in being insulted here time and again, here and on about everyone's talk page, with the most ridiculous claims (supposedly I am well known to hate Germany and Germans, think they are all Nazis, I am a little PhD student and so on so forth). By the way I am of German descent myself and actively promote German culture. If it would solve the major problems of the Germany page, and others will come back and contribute, I would go for it! gidonb 00:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I would never flame at you, Doric Loon. I know that your are a good-willing person. Regarding your suggestion. I joined Wikipedia some months because I thought that I had something useful to contribute to this article. I come from Germany, and I'm greatly interested in Germany. I have worked on this page since January, trying to make a better and more interesting article of it. I'm sorry that Gidonb doesn't see it this way. I'm even more sorry to know that you don't see it this way either. - Heimdal 19:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
And if I came back after a month, what then? Gidonb would be back as well, and everything would start all over again. Perhaps the best thing to do is to put this case to the arbitration committee. Although I don't like the idea very much, because I don't have any experience with arbitration. - Heimdal 19:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is already a main article on the history of Germany, and that the section given should be a much briefer summary of the contents of that article. There also seems to be a lot of consensus for that on the Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
hey, while it is obivous that Heimdal is annoyed at gidonb, for the reasons he stated, I don't see his remarks as particularly insulting. He's annoyed, and says so, that's not an insult per se. At least, I have been insulted much worse on WP without batting an eyelid. The deletions may be arguable, but the question is, did gidonb discuss them at the time he made them? If not, why not? Yes, the article should be shorter, and gidonb may get consensus for some of his removals, but that's beside the point if he didn't bother to discuss. dab (ᛏ) 09:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Right, I'll defend my edits: 1, Listing off the border countries of a nation in the introduction is tedious and long-winded. It doesn't do the article any favours, especially when the same text can be found further down. I consider that a sentence stating the country's position and the fact that it has lots of neighbours replaces the list (Which can still be found further down the page if the reader is interested enough to read on) a lot more concisely. 2, There is no need to say that Germany is a member-state of those international organisations, as their only members ARE states. 3, Likewise 'G8' on it's own says it all. i.e Germany is a member of the Group of 8- no 'nations' is needed. 4, '...what is now the EU' implies that Germany helped to found the predecessor and not the current body. Thus mentioning the EEC is superfluous. 5, Saying 'it' at the start of the third paragraph also omits unnecessary repetition of 'Germany', considering that this has been said in the first two.
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them... I have others."- Groucho Marx :op Rednaxela 20:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In the light of a series of revolutionary movements in Europe in 1848, particularly following the revolution in France, which once more established a republic, revolution broke out in Germany." - This sentence has too many appositions. Okay, so it may be factually and gramatically exact, but it makes for horrible reading. Rednaxela 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why do people in America consider people like Albert Einstein German? There is no such thing as a German-Jew, it's just a feel good term invented by Moses Mendelssohn. I propose a vote to forbid the use of the term German-Jew, one cannot be both German and Jewish.
I think the term "German-Jew" is being used by Gidonb. - Heimdal 09:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The question is whether the Jewish population should be mentioned in the Demography section or in Religion. In the previous version the Jews were mentioned in Religion, before Gidonb moved them to Demography. I would question that decision. Because officially Germany does not make any distinction between Germans and Jews. If a person of Jewish faith has the German citizenship, he or she is registered as German - if otherwise, he or she is counted as "Foreigner". It's simply a matter of faith, not of ethnicity. That's why I would put them back to Religion. - Heimdal 09:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
There a lot of Jews (and not jewish people like me) living in Germany today that would object to one cannot be both German and Jewish. Nevfennas 14:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be "Jewish German" (like Jewish American) ? - Heimdal 14:45, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
OF COURSE there is such a thing as a German Jew. Just listen to the president of the Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland on how he feels about the assumption that he must be an Israeli... -- Doric Loon 19:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't react to this kind of trollish comment (the original comment)! Saintswithin 20:34, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The problem with "jewish" people is that they make no distinction between someone who is of jewish blood and someone that belongs to that "religion" Dudtz 7/21/05 7:00 PM EST
Since the page is protected, I would like to post some proposals for (rather minor) changes.
"The medieval empire – known for much of its existence as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation – stemmed from a division of the Carolingian Empire in 843, which was founded by Charlemagne on December 25th, 800, and existed in varying forms until 1806."
The 2nd foundation by Otto I in 962 should be mentioned.
"During these almost thousand years, the Germans expanded their influence with the help of the Catholic Church, Northern Crusades and the Hanseatic League."
Northern Crusades is awkward. There was only one "crusade" in the North, please use another term.
Also the decline of royal/imperial power since 1250 should be mentioned.
From: "In 1530, the Protestant Reformation of Catholicism failed, and a separate Protestant church was acknowledged as a new state religion in many German states." To: "After 1517 the Protestant Reformation broke out and spread through Germany.This resulted in the religious split of the country and in 1555 it was left to the princes to determine the religious affiliation of their respective territories."
From: "In 1890 Bismarck was dismissed by the new Emperor William II due to the prudent foreign policy and personal differences." Into: "In 1890 Bismarck was dismissed by the new Emperor William II due to differences about foreign and internal policies and also because of personal differences." Explanation: "due to the prudent foreign policy" is a rather awkward wording - I guess Bismarck's policy is supposed to be prudent, but certainly Wilhelm saw it differently. There were also differences about internal policy, e.g. social security, fight against the Social Democrats.
From: "in the Night of the Long Knives, ostensibly to end homosexual vices" To: "in the Night of the Long Knives, ostensibly to preempt a paramilitary coup against the government" Reason: though Röhm's homosexuality played some part and was used by Hitler for propaganda, the "real supposed reason" was that Röhm & the SA were planning a coup against the government, a 2nd revolution, to replace the regular army with the Sa paramilitary. Fears of this were widespread and Hitler shrewdly used this to portray himself as the moderate.
Also "left-wing" opposition is a bit awkward in regard to the SA. Yes, in a way, it's true, but then again, it isn't.
"German Parliament is made up of the Bundestag and the Bundesrat."
That's wrong. The two don't form one body with two chambers (as in the UK or the USA), both are distinct bodies of the legislative branch. The Bundestag is the parliament and shouldn't be called a the lower house. Contrasted with the Bundesrat, the Bundestag is actually more important. Parallels to the UK or the USA are misleading. Accordingly, the Bundesrat shouldn't be called the upper house.
In the Education section, it should be mentioned that school education is a matter of the individual states and hence there are differences in the respective school systems.
Str1977 22:51, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I read the (London-based) Economist every week, and I think to have seen the word "upper house" being used more than once with reference to the Bundesrat. - Heimdal 13:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The Bundesrat consists of members of the current goverments of the german states. Each state is allocated between 3 and 7 votes (69 total), depending on the size of the state (roughly). How these votes are cast is decided by the goverment of the state, usually formed by a coalition. If the partners of the coalition disagree on an issue, the state usually abstents (splitting the votes is explicitly forbidden by the constitution). The Bundesrat can only vote on laws that effect the states direct interests (e.g. taxes with revenues given to the states). The area of direct interest is divided into one where the Bundesrat must agree to laws and one where the Bundesrat can only object, with the Bundestag being able to overrule the objection with Chancellors Majority. AFAIK the upper houses have to agree to all laws, therefore the Bundesrat is not an upper house. Nevfennas 14:22, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Nevfennas, do a quick Google search, and you will see that the word "upper house" in connection with the Bundesrat is used pretty much everywhere. - Heimdal 14:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not denying that, but the Bundesrat in the hand of the opposition is far less a problem for the ruling party than e.g. the US Senate. But maybe it's better to leave that to the Bundesrat-page. Nevfennas 14:40, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
But compare with the UK, where the "upper house" is practically of nuisance value only, and was permanently in the hands of one party for quite literally centuries, with only moderate problems for governments of other parties with commons majorities; or other countries with vaguely similar systems such as Ireland. Seems a perfectly justifiable usage (as well as being a fairly common one, as noted by Heimdal) in this broader sense, rather than the singular comparison with the US Senate per se. Alai 22:53, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I know that "upper house" is used quite frequently for the Bundesrat. That is why I jumped when I read it here. Magazines may print things like this, but it doesn't make them any truer. Wiki, as an ecyclopedia, should refrain from that. I know where they are coming from. They compare the German system with the US one, where the Senate is the representative of the states and is also the upper house both in honour (senate) and in powers (confirmation of ministers, judges etc, impeachment court). Though the UK's House of Lords (--Aside: Alai, you're mistaken, the Lords have been divided along party lines since the 17th century, as long as there are parties in England---) is much less powerful than the Commons, this wasn't always so (relly only after 1910 or so) and it also has the "primacy of honour". The Bundesrat however is, despite its current nuissance value, considered a lesser institution compared to the Bundestag (the President of the Bundestag is ranking second just behind the Federal President, and above the Chancellor (3rd) and the President of the Bundesrat (4th), though the latter can fill in for the Federal President). Also, neither Bundestag nor Bundesrat are actually houses or chambers of a more comprehensive body, as it is the case in the USA and the UK. The two are distinct bodies of the legislative branch. The Bundestag is the German parliament and in it the legislative power is vested - the Bundesrat participates in that process. Again, I know, English papers are trying to give a quick explanation of the Bundesrat by calling it "upper house" (whether this works, I don't know), but Wiki explains it well enough, so it doesn't need this supposed parallel. Str1977 23:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Str1977, I'm aware it's divided on party lines: how does that go to my point at all, much less demonstrate me mistaken? It's had a large in-built Tory/Conservative majority for the preponderance of that time, regardless of whether the commons was controlled by the Whigs, Liberals, or Labour Party. Perhaps it wasn't clear what I meant by "in the hands": that denotes "control", not "exclusive occupancy". On the substantiative issue, if we've established that British sources (with their model of a highly ineffective "upper house"), American sources (with a very different one), and Wikipedia (also see: Upper house for a fuller discussion of the proper scope of the term) all find this a useful descriptor, despite obvious inexactitudes in the implied comparisons, then I don't see how the usage is questionable here. Alai 02:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Alai, as regards the "Lords" - "mistaken" was strictly limited to your saying, that the Lords were controlled by one party for centuries. There have been preponderance this way and that way, both Whigs and Tories. You are right of course, if you say, that the Lords were and are generally more conservative (not a party, but a view) than the Commons, but I guess they are supposed to be. On the substantive issue, I'll stand by my points made above. Str1977 10:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I am unprotecting this article again. I have discussed this with Mackensen, and he agreed we should give it a try. I am playing the "uninvolved admin" here, in spite of my couple of comments towards compromise above, since I haven't made an edit to the article yet.
My rationale for unprotecting is:
The rules for further editing are:
Does that sound like a deal? I would ask admins not to re-protect after the first two or three reverts. Let's see if this will calm down. Both gidonb and Heimdal will realize that just reverting each other will yield no result, whatsoever except wasting everybody's time and make them look childish. Another rule is, if you feel very annoyed, take a break for a couple of hours, and see what the others could figure out when you return. dab (ᛏ) 09:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Concerning anything that is personal or without direct impact on Germany, in the dispute between Heimdal and gidonb, I do encourage you to open an rfc. You could even agree to open a 'joint' rfc, where you both invite outside views on your disputes, rather than have one accusing and one defending party. People will be able to look into the history of your dispute on that rfc, and it won't clog up this page so much anymore. You should not open an arbitration case before that rfc as reached a dead end, Heimdal. dab (ᛏ) 09:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Good move. I promise that I won't revert the page. Instead, I will simply re-add all the things that Gidonb deleted, and discuss them here. Einverstanden? - Heimdal 09:43, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
no, no, don't add them all at once! start with the less controversial ones. see how people react. Take it slowly, there is no deadline. dab (ᛏ) 10:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think Jayjg has a point here. If you look at the history section on other country pages, it usually isn't longer than two paragraphs. The bulk is on the "History of <name>" page. The history section on Germany is over twice the size of that on France, whose history is equally ancient. I would also agree with Dbachmann that there's no rush, and that bringing the matter to the community's attention through an RfC would be very beneficial (especially for the article itself). Mackensen (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the history section is quite long. But as I've repeatedly pointed out, the article itself is not. The Germany page (previous version) was 47KB long, whereas the United States page has a length of 61KB. Alai should please explain why Germany should be drastically "pruned" while the United States is allowed to expand. This page has seen too many deletions already. Let the page evolve, and please refrain from putting straightjackets on those who are working on this article. - Heimdal 10:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
BTW, there seems to be a technical problem on the History of this talk page. A post of May 10th is being dragged throughout the History page. Any idea how to avoid that? Thanks. - Heimdal 10:13, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
If the length of the History section is brought to the RfC, I think it would be fair to put the length of the United States page to the community's attention as well. Heimdal 10:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the length of the History section is connected with Germany's unusual past. I'm glad that Andries has pointed this out. - Heimdal 11:21, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I would just like to point out to User:Alai that most of Gidonb's "trimming" had nothing to do with the History section. Gidonb has deleted indiscriminately throughout the whole article (he even removed parts of the Culture section), which was simply not necessary. I intend to put that all back. As regards the disputed History section. If that section is going to be shortened, it should be done in a way that is balanced and fair. Because I for one would never agree to a History section in which Nazi Germany and the Holocaust are the centrepiece, and everything else is only mentioned at random. - Heimdal 11:45, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, I don't see anything wrong with the current size. However, if you disagree, I suggest that you go over to the United States page and try to convince the people to delete that article by half. Surely there is no bloating over there, or is there, Jayig? - Heimdal 10:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I, too, think the seize of the history section is now better but I fail to see why the sections shouldn't deserve two pictures each. To my mind pictures really enliven articles, which you can easily recognize when looking at the article for propaganda. In addition they (can) give a more accurate impression. To show the heyday of nazism in "Third Reich" is one thing, but to cast the fall of it, the victory in Berlin, quite another. You could say that only showing the prime is one-sided and adding the another picture would make it a complete picture, thus more unbiased. What the History-section also lacks is the right proportion. The time up to the German Empire is clearly understated, especially the time shortly before the German Empire: nationalism, liberalism, Congress of Vienna, Dutscher Bund, Restauration, Wartburg meeting, Hambacher Fest... Revolation of 1848/49, Paulskirche, the falling through of the revolution, you name it. They should without any doubt receive their own paragraph. There are reasons why the 19th century is often referred to as the "long" 19th century. The History-section could and should mirror that length. The Weimarer Republik, by contrast, is a bit overstated, just like the single actions in WW1. History books like to make only little mention of it anyway. But I guess you have problems other than the content of the 19th century right now. Oh well, sooner or later I'm going to fix the paragraph myself, but I'm afraid not anytime soon. NightBeAsT 23:12, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
This article desperately needs a section on the German legal system. (This could cross-reference to German legal citation, Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, etc., though a full article on the German legal system will eventually be a desideratum). Anyone feel up to writing it? -- Doric Loon 21:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The sentence about administrative law is wrong. Administrative Law is codified nationally (VwGO,VwVfG,BVerfGG,etc).
Heimdal, your mass deletion of old matter from this talk page is completely unacceptable. If you don't know how to properly archive then ask someone (like me) who does, but don't just delete comments, especially not those made by other people. Also, comments made in the last few days regarding on-going issues should not be deleted, especially not when such a deletion destroys context. I am going to restore the deleted content, and please don't do that again. Mackensen (talk) 20:06, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Heimdal's brutal behavior, such as through frequent threats, cursing and deliberate vandalisms, and his easy time at getting away with it, prove that Heimdal can do whatever he likes on the Germany page and its talk page. This is made possible by the fact that users like me, with an excellent reputation around Wikipedia, do not like to be slurred through the mud time and again by Heimdal, while being assisted by an opinionated contributor to the talk page, who takes clear personal and mostly similar stands, albeit in a milder language.
This user, administrator Dbachmann, draws clear parallels between the attacker and his victims, while he totally disregards Heimdal's agressive language, as wel as Heimdal's deliberate deletions of large sections of the very same talk page he, Dbachmann, uses to insult those who would like to make a positive contribution to the Germany page ("childish behavior"). Dbachmann, who placed plea after plea to change Heimdal's 'bitter luck' on Mckensen's page and unprotected the Germany page after he was asked not to, also contributed to my talk page where he implied that I should leave Wikipedia!
While this is the state of affairs, I completely understand why so many stopped their efforts at improving the quality of the Germany page. As a "little PhD student", by Heimdal's definition, who truely cares about this page and about Wikipedia in general and the way we interact, I would like to request that we freeze the Germany page again, until we get to the bottom of the issues while talking to the many excellent contributors who left after being attacked by Heimdal, the way he attacked me the last two weeks. gidonb 03:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
No you are not. I called the user by his name and I saw you clearly protest some of Heimdal's methods, which are made possible with the support of the administrator I mentioned. gidonb 12:24, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that this page be protected again. I won't accept any further deletions by Gidonb. - Heimdal 11:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the pic of the German pope because his fucntion is mainly international and I think a pic of him is overdoing it. Andries 11:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Quantity of Jews in Germany today [4] Andries 12:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
All my improvements to this page were thoroughly explained. If they are massreverted without proper explenations, that is vandalism. But then again, what is new. He vandalises the talk page regularly and the article even more often, and has an administrator to back him up. gidonb 12:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
As Heimdal's vandalism to this page seems to continue at full speed, although his methods were yesterday exposed, I think that protecting this page and discussing the ongoing issues, where good contributors are discredited until they leave, is actually a good option. gidonb 12:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I didn't touch the History section, and I demand that Gidonb does the same. I'm only readding deleted things outside History which were good and useful information, based on facts not bias. - Heimdal 12:53, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
You are continuing to vandalize both the talk page and the article itself and no one seems to care. gidonb 13:01, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, the information may not be useful to *you*, but perhaps it may be useful to others? Also, regarding the alleged "bloating". I kindly ask you to go over to the United States page and convince the people over there to delete half the article. Surely, an article of the size of 61KB must be full of "bloat", or not? - Heimdal 16:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjig, I demand fairness. It seems like the hysteria about the article's length seems to be particular to this page. Nobody is making a big deal about the 61KB on the US talk page. It looks like Germany and the United States are being treated differently on Wikipedia. Besides, your accusation of "page ownership" is absolutely ridiculous. I'm only asking that this page be treated in the same way as the United States article: That this page be left to develop freely, without someone deleting the page every few weeks. - Heimdal 16:45, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I object to the Heimdal's patronizing summary edit: "Who asked you to move edits to other articles anyway. Just stop it." Who is going to stop his brutal behavior? Also, how can one demand fairness, if one treats everyone who wants to contribute to this page utterly unfair, decieves, patronizes, vandalizes, curses and what have you? gidonb 17:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to the protection of this page. There are serious issues with the conducts around this page, which ought to be discussed in a serious manner. gidonb 17:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, but why Germany and not the United States. Please explain why the US article should be allowed to be twice the size of this page. I can't see any fairness in that. - Heimdal 17:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The main issue of the Germany page is the fact that contributors get attacked and contributions to the article and its talk page are almost daily vandalized. The Untied States has 4.5 times the population of Germany and about 28 times its territory. It may have some faults too, but this is hardly the place to discuss them. I think you are side-tracking the problem. gidonb 17:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, if 32KB is fair for Germany it should be fair for any country. I demand equal treatment of all country-related articles. Certainly, we don't want to give readers the impression that the United States is granted privileged status on Wikipedia, do we? - Heimdal 18:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I restored the version of Academic Challanger after unsummarized edits by an anonymous user. After the change we have had two images of the Brandenburger Gate, but none of the Berlin Wall, so this was probably a bad idea. This was the reason the Brandenburger Gate, rather than the Wall, was removed to begin with when reducing the excessive picture material on this page. gidonb 20:26, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Article about a country, especially a major one like Germany, should have 320kb :) I would object to this being FA if it had less the 32kb anyway, I think a good FA should have at least 32kb. Btw, this talk page needs archiving fast, it is enormous. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have just gone through all the edits of the last 24 hours, which took me a half an hour which I really could have put to better use. It is quite clear that Heimdal and Gidonb are still not listening to each other, and in my view they have both lost track of the cooperative spirit of this project. But of the two, it is Gidonb who is really out of order. The word "vandal" is an insult, it is a deliberate provocation which can only exacerbate problems, and it only shows Gidonb in a very bad light. Please avoid inflamatory language. Besides, it is slightly absurd: if you think about it logically, deleting text is destroying someone's work, and it is deleting, not restoring, which is closer to vandalism. Some material of mine was deleted by Gidonb yesterday. Well, maybe it was of no great importance, but consultation would have been nice. Apart from the history section, this article needs to be fuller, not shorter. So please do not delete substantive material unless there is agreement here first. -- Doric Loon 20:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Hello Doric, as mentioned it was not deleted but moved to the in-depth article. This was very helpful since the topic was totally omitted there. I understand and regret your personal discomfort, but I thought the edit was necessary for the overall balance of this article and not because the text was wrong. The text was moved "as is" and enriches the other article. Jayjg: I intend to move on if the order is truely restored at this article and some balance will be kept. I never mean to dictate as my opinions are as good as these of anyone else. I understand that some of the users who already gave up on this page will soon be back. I do think I have a very modest hand in this change, if indeed it happens. We'll wait and see. gidonb 21:02, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I never have or will delete anything lightly. I always approach the creative work of others with utmost respect. I wish everyone would behave that way. Things then would work better, especially at this page. gidonb 03:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with moving detail from a general article like this to to an article that is supposed to cover a sub topic in more detail like geography of Germany. However I let articles grow larger than this one before I bother doing that. For example Polish September Campaign was getting really big, so I summarized the ==Opposing forces== section and moved the detail to Opposing forces in the Polish September Campaign. More work is needed in other parts of that article, but the more compact treatment will be useful to a larger audience (most people lack the time or interest to read really long articles). See Wikipedia:Summary style. -- mav 03:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I have inserted a brief description of the legal system and cross-referenced. I also changed the title of this section from "politics" to "constitution". Politics is all about political parties, in most people's usage. Maybe we should have a short section here on politics, but this ain't it.-- Doric Loon 13:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with the many sub sections that Gidonb introduces. Military is financed by the government but can not be a subsection of the government. After all the Germans are not governed by the military. Compare e.g. France and United States. Besides, Wikipedia guidelines say that many subsections are to be avoided. I will revert. Andries 15:20, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
The military is typically subordinate to the government. In Germany it certainly is. I will change it once more, because this may not look good. If someone objects to the notion that the the military, just like foreign affairs, is part of the executive branch of government, please explain why. Thank you. gidonb 16:52, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
This statement does not make sense to me. Are you sure you stand behind it yourself? gidonb 18:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I would say that the military is controlled by the Ministry of Defence. The Minister of Defence is part of the government. The military itself is part of the administrative burocracy - just like the BaFin (the body that controls banks and financial institutions) is part of the administrative burocracy of the Ministry of Finance. Luis rib 18:13, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I checked several other country articles i.e. USA, France, Netherlands, Switzerland and none of them had the military as sub section the government. Besides following the same reason as Luis we could also argue that education should fall under government which, I think, would be very strange. Andries 18:18, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
This is a discussion which may also be held in other articles. While we are editing this article, I believe we should ascertain that the subsections of this article are nested properly, at least that is what Wikipedia suggests.
For some countries (but not the ones you mentioned), the military (still a government agency or government agencies) operates somewhat independently from the government. In this case, while formally part of the executive branch of government structure, it may be correct to see this reflected also in the subsection structure. These countries however are by definition undemocratic. I hope nobody wants to suggest that Germany is not a democracy, as is the case with such countries. Perhaps the suggestion that the military is not part of the government stems from a sometimes narrower use of government in German and Dutch, as compared to English.
The case with education is different. Some private provision of education is common in most countries (and such provision does not directly affect a country's status as a democracy). Furthermore, with education in the context of a country article, we also refer to various levels of education obtained by the population, such as in the proportion of high school graduates or literacy rate, which may be a result of many policies and circumstances, among them education policies, location, immgration, but even colonial background and natural resources may have some (indirect) impact. gidonb 19:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
As a federation, German has two level sovereign governments, each level exercising powers as defined in the German Constitution. Below these are governments without sovereign powers (local government or local state). All these are forms of German government. Thus, to ensure proper nesting, we should ascertain that the states are being correctly defined as part of government. Feel free revert if you disagree, but do explain why you believe that the German states (länder) are not German government. gidonb 11:00, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, it's probably beacuse of me, but I do not understand you. If you agree that both the states and the military are part of German government, why care about the US article? Why not look at the issue and what can be improved? After all this is the Germany article and its talk page. On the other hand, if you care more about the US article than about what makes what substantive sense, why don't you make the changes there? Just some food for thought. I will be glad to hear any substantive objections. Best, gidonb 11:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Doric Loon, I dislike the general tone of your latest piece. I am concerned that this might brings us back to place we started from, a bad place, with an unpleasant exchange of opinions. Perhaps you can restate your objections in a less personal manner. If you cannot, I will try to do with what we have. gidonb 12:55, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is what I meant with the personal tone. Calling a person you disagree with heavy-handed does not advance any discussions or better listening. The latter, by the way, is precisely what this page lacks. gidonb 13:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
No no no, I moved a section back to the place where it makes more sense to have it, after explaining this movement. Please review your line of unpleasant conclusions accordingly. Lets keep this civilized. gidonb 14:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Though I don't deny the influence of this statesman on German history, his section in the history section seems way out of proportion if we compare it with other important German historic figures. Also, Bismark is given a glowing description, even though he's considered to be the father of Realpolitik (i.e. amoral politics). If there's no opposition, I shall reduce it a bit. Luis rib 15:38, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose that everything on this page before the sub-heading "this remains a very biased page" be archived. If no-one objects I shall do so around this time tomorrow. Mackensen (talk) 16:17, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more. Thanks in advance. NightBeAsT 16:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Why, after reading the post of Maveric149 on Friday May 20th, I have the feeling that I've been tricked. I have been told here that this article should be no longer than the recommended size of 32KB. But now I'm reading in Maveric's post that - hear and behold - it is allowed to "let articles grow larger than this one". Besides, it appears that the recommended size is an outdated issue, which was once adopted because the old browsers could not handle articles longer than 32KB. Then I've been told that the length of the History section is incompatible with Wikipedia policy. But now again, here's what Maveric's post says:
For the record, the article Polish September Campaign was 59KB long before Maveric149 intervened to move parts of it to other articles. The Germany page on its part has never been longer than 47KB, far away from the dimensions of the Polish article, let alone of the United States page. That's why Maveric149 has never intervened on this article to cut the size of the History section: Because the length of the Germany page did not justify such an intervention. Based on what Maveric149 has said in his post, starting tomorrow on Monday, I for my part intend to gradually restore all the parts that have been removed from the Germany article in the last couple of weeks if not months. If the restored parts are removed again, I will revert the page. I'm ready to make full use of my right to revert as much as 3 times per day if necessary. I intend to continue reverting the page until the cancellations stop. In the case that the page should be protected again, I'm ready to put the case to the arbitration committee, as I regard the deletions that have been made, and all the various attempts to put curbs on the article and on those who work on the page as illegal. In the future I will respect interventions that are aimed at reducing the size of the article and of single sections only by Maveric149 himself. However, I don't think that such an intervention will happen, because there is no reason for it. In fact, there never has been any. - Heimdal 16:00, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
But I've never agreed that my edits be removed by Gidonb! Where does Gidonb take the right to cancel them? Also, this article has never been longer than 47KB, as compared to the 61KB of the US article. Trying to put curbs on this article but not on the United States page cannot be fair, and I'm ready to raise this issue to the arbitration committee if necessary. Also, if I understand Maveric's post well, there's nothing wrong with having a longer History section here, as long as the Germany page itself does not become too long. So just stop fussing about the size of History. - Heimdal 10:43, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, just let me start putting back - *slowly* - all the things that Gidonb has deleted, and then you can judge yourself whether it's justified to keep them here or not, OK? Regarding the History section. It's not that I'm against shortening the section altogether. But if History is to be shortened, I insist that it be done in a way that is balanced and fair. And for what I can say, previous attempts to shorten History have been neither fair nor balanced. The subsections "Holy Roman Empire", "German Empire" and "Division and Reunification" have all been savagely cut. What has *not* been cut, however, was the "Third Reich" subsection, which has even been expanded further. But I for my part don't want to end up with a History section where the Third Reich and the Holocaust are the centrepiece, and everything else is only mentioned at random. Then I'd say, let us keep the longer version, because at least there was some balance in it. - Heimdal 11:16, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
well, I guess we're still waiting for a list of the points you absolutely want to include. dab (ᛏ) 12:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, I really don't feel like putting up an entire list of all the things that have been removed here in the past couple of weeks, sorry for that. Just let me restore - *slowly* - the removed parts, and you can judge yourself whether it's justified to keep them here or not, OK? - Heimdal 13:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
All this mass reverting etc is getting boring, and the personal insults are childish. There is too much aggression here, and it is not helping clear thinking. What irritates me mostly is that it all seems to be about style. One person likes his wordings, the other his. (Or is it really a NPOV question whether the word "including" is used in the first paragraph?) Or again, one person wants much more data in the history section, the other wants it shorter. I agree with shorter, but that's a matter of taste. The point is, this is NOT a biased article, and as far as I can see, neither Heimdal's nor Gidonb's changes make it one. But maybe I am wrong. If so, could someone please list SOBERLY AND NEUTRALLY and above all BRIEFLY what the issues are where you think political bias is motivating the two sides of the argument. Then we can talk about the issues. -- Doric Loon 19:26, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I object to unprotecting this page, since Heimdal threatens to reintroduce his biased version again. gidonb 18:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb, please explain your objection. Sorry, but unless you don't explain reasonably why, in your view, the previous version was "extremely biased", there is no reason for keeping this page protected any further. - Heimdal 10:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else agree with Gidonb's view that the previous version of the page was "extremily biased"? If not, I think that we should regard Gidonb's view as a minority opinion, and move on. - Heimdal 15:09, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for Gidonb to give some reasonable explanations as to why, in his view, the previous version was "extremely biased". If he isn't able to explain his point, I think we should indeed go back to the previous version. Infamouskitty, the article is long, but certainly not overly long? In fact, the United States page is much longer. NB I shall be absent from here over the Whitsun holiday. I'll be back on Tuesday. - Heimdal 13:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I have spent one week here now, trying to defend myself against Gidonb's allegations that the version which I have been editing for weeks was "extremely biased". In all this week I have not seen one single effort by Gidonb to discuss his allegations with me. I give Gidonb two more days to make his point here. If by Tuesday he has failed to do so, I'll ask an administrator to unprotect the article, and revert Gidonb's edits. If Gidonb tries to revert back, I'll ask for protection of *my* version this time. - Heimdal 15:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Also, I'm considering to start an arbitration procedure against Gidonb for intentionally vandalising the Germany page. Because if you put all his edits together - the indiscriminate deletions, the removal of images, the non-sensical changes to the structure of the article, etc - they do de facto amount to an act of vandalism. - Heimdal 19:02, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Zionist needs to be banned from editing this page. Or what do you say, Gustav and Heimdal? Should we go to the Israel article and make it primarily an article about the Jewish ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of the Palestinians? Perhaps the United States should mostly deal with the genocide on native Americans, Africans and Abu Ghraib, preferably with a lot of the well-known pictures from the camp? anonymous comment by User:83.109.147.244
This is just silly (I just came here for wondering about the protection notice). Nobody can say WP is trying to hush up the holocaust. We have Nazi Germany, Holocaust, why, we have Category:Holocaust, containing six subcategories, and more than 100 individual articles. This, however is the article on Germany, the present-day state and its history. The Nazis dominated, what, 12 years of the 1200 years treated in the history section. that's 1%. already, the "Third Reich" section takes up about 20% of the history section, which is arguably pov, but obviously, it's not about any old 1% of German history, but a very decisive 1%, plus it's relatively recent history, so I'd say its fine to blow it out of (strictly temporal) proportion by a factor 10 or 20. And of course the Third Reich section should mention the holocaust. And guess what - that's it. The rest of the article should be allowed to treat lots of unrelated things in peace. dab (ᛏ) 11:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, the issue is not whether the article should mention the Holocaust. Of course it should. What angers me is that Gidonb has deleted half the page and removed every image that stood in his way before the article was protected. I think that Gidonb's deletions are totally unjustified, and I'm still waiting for Gidonb to explain his point. - Heimdal 13:56, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see the Holocaust against the Palestinians mentioned in the Israel article! 83.109.156.2
I don't edit the Israel article. I leave it to the crowd over there to decide what should be mentioned in the Israel article and what not. This article is about Germany. Nobody in his or her right mind can deny that the Holocaust happened. It is therefore right to mention it here, for the sake of honesty and of historical accuracy. - Heimdal 10:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I see -- I didn't follow the discussion, and was distracted by the anonymous holocaust rant. Now correct me, but the article seems to have been protected by an admin involved in editing disputes here, and he seems to have reverted before protecting. I consider this rather bad form, admins involved in disputes should ask for protection on RfP like everyone else. I think I can take it upon myself to unprotect the article. Of course, if the edit war continues, it will have to be protected again, blindly, i.e. all parties have an interest to reach some sort of compromise rather than keeping reverting. dab (ᛏ) 15:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is the subject religion a subsection of the section culture? I also disagree with the subject of military as a subsection of politics. Both religion and military deserve their own sections. I propose an immediate change of the structure. Foreign relations can be a subsection of politics Andries 16:10, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, I regard Gidonb's edits as wilful vandalism, would you agree? Anyway, the page has been unprotected right now, and I have reverted Gidonb's edits. Gidonb is asked to discuss his objections with me on this talk page. - Heimdal 17:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb's edits were for the most part deletions, as you had rightly observed yourself. I ask you to help improve the Germany page, Andries. (But without calling the deletion squad, please). - Heimdal 17:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Germans continue to be concerned about a relatively high level of unemployment; however, they are generally unwilling to conceed to labour concessions such as longer working hours.
I think you are quoting from the "Social issues" section, right? That section was added to the article some weeks ago by User:Reboot, who also wrote the main article Social issues in Germany. The only thing I contributed to the section was the image of Kreuzberg, actually. I don't agree with everything that Reboot wrote. But I left it stay anyway, because of the effort he/she had made. Reboot told me that he/she was an American who had lived for some time in Germany. - Heimdal 17:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
seeing that the reverting has started already, let me say that I recommend that Heimdal splits his edits into several parts, arguing each point separately, rather than just reverting to an old version. That way, his opponents in turn will have to argue each point separately. It is necessary to discuss things here on talk. Just reverting or calling vandalism is not acceptable. You need to carve out a compromise, but before you can do that, you need to establish what exaclty are the disputed points. dab (ᛏ) 17:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree. I believe Heimdal's umpteenth mass-reverting of our edits is against the rules at en.wikipedia and against your recommendation. I also find it very unpleasant to discuss matters with him beacuse of his rude language. I would like more people to be involved in this process. gidonb 17:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I've asked User:DBachmann to unprotect, because you have not even cared to discuss your allegations with me, Gidonb. Anyway. Can we discuss now without you reverting the page once again? - Heimdal 17:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me you started mass-reverting the page. Also the fact that Dbachmann unprotected the page at your request does not mean you can mass revert it. According to his recommendations, I would say the opposite is true. gidonb 17:58, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
This mass-reverting is unacceptable. I have protected the page. Mackensen (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I will start an arbitration procedure against Gidonb for wilfully vandalising the Germany page. See you there Gidonb. - Heimdal 18:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how deleting half the page, removing images, and giving the article a structure which does not make sense to anyone should be an "improvement", Gidonb. I have enough evidence to prove that your edits were not made with goodwill. - Heimdal 18:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
And what is more, Gidonb. Not one word in the Third Reich section was written by me. That's still the version by User:Luis rib, actually. I didn't delete anything there. Your accusations are totally absurd. - Heimdal 18:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
You deleted the genocides against Roma and Slavs many times times, in the past and today twice. gidonb 18:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. I've never deleted anything regarding the Holocaust. Why should I? I'm not the kind of person you're trying to make of me. Do you think that because I'm German, I'm a Nazi? No, I'm German, but I'm not a Nazi. It may surprise you, Gidonb, but I didn't revert the page because of your edits to the Holocaust. I reverted the page because you have deleted far too many things, which had nothing to do with History, and which would have been too tiresome for me to restore them all. - Heimdal 19:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
So not wrong, but right. You did delete these genocides many times and for that matter bias the Germany page time and again. Also, I demand that you apologize for numerous times associating me with this ridiculous allegation. I never accused you or anyone for that matter of being a Nazi. This is a totally disgusting accusation. gidonb 19:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
can you please stop bickering about the various holocausts on this page? Your main concern should be to get some sort of compromise so that we can unprotect this page for everybody else to edit. This is a long article about a notable state, and it should not be protected longer than absolutely necessary. So please agree not to touch the holocaust stuff without prior discussion here, if necessary doing a poll about it. Just propose variant wordings of the section here, so everybody can vote about it. If necessary, create variant subpages. sheesh, assume some good faith, both of you, and some confidence that the fate of the Germany article lies not in your hands exclusively. You are not the only editors on Wikipedia you know.
Gidonb, you should understand that Heimdal is frustrated because the page was protected in his face, twice. Also, as you are a "long-time contributor", you know very well that Heimdal's edits are not considered "vandalism", so please don't call them that, you'll only annoy him more. Heimdal, you should understand that you cannot just summarily revert, but have to argue your points individually.
dab
(ᛏ) 06:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Under his leader leadership Germany started the T-4 Euthanasia Program in 1939 that secretly killed mentally disabled individuals without consent of their family. Nazi-Germany from 1941 to 1945 industrially murdered six million Jews plus additional groups like the Roma in the Holocaust. They also persecuted homosexuals, and communists. Thousands of Soviet POWs died through deliberate neglect and murder.
Dbachmann, I agree with you absolutely. If it's all about the right wording of the Holocaust part (an issue of particular concern for Gidonb), I'm ready to discuss it here on this talk page. What I'm *not* ready to accept, however, are the indiscriminate deletions that Gidonb has made in virtually every section of the article, the removal of images, the ridiculous structure that Gidonb has imposed upon this article (Religion a subsection of Culture, which in turn is a subsection of Population, and other such nonsense) - not to mention his totally absurd accusation that the article was "extremely biased". I'm still ready to put this case to the arbitration committee if necessary. - Heimdal 08:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, the six million murdered in the holocaust do not include the other populations, BUT RATHER these are assessed at an additional 6 million, precisely as it says on the Germany page. gidonb 12:01, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Sure, ok look: Heimdal, will you agree to make individual edits, one for each section/point you think was deleted without justification? And gidonb, will you agree to address these edits one by one, giving a reason for each one if you revert them? If you agree on this, the edit war will be contained to the "third Reich" section, which on this article is after all only a short historical summary. Will you also agree to not edit the Third Reich subsection directly (I am talking to gidonb and Heimdal)? Either let other editors follow up on your suggestions (your edits only have a chance of surviving if they get some consensus anyway), or until you can agree on a compromise version? In that case I think we could unprotect. Switching to and fro between antagonistic versions is totally unproductive, you need to find common ground step by step. Concerning the holocaust, just copy information from the specialized articles: These have been fought over in detail, and there is no point in repeating the same disputes here. dab (ᛏ) 13:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
from Holocaust:
so could we say, based on this,
we really shouldn't go into more detail than this, and these seem to be the numbers people agreed on on Holocaust. The Holocaust article treats the Jewish victims together with the 'gentile' ones. dab (ᛏ) 13:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Dab, I could live with most of that phrasing, except for knocking a million of the holocaust and the other genocides. Only very early research estimated the number of holocaust victims at 5 million (please follow the link in the document you refered to). The perpetrators, victims and current research estimate it at around 6 million. I also insist on the active phrasing, but will do with your compromised term. I believe a Roma person will just like me look to see if the Roma holocaust is mentioned in the Germany article, and excluding this is a disgrace for the English language Wikipedia. Hence my insistance. I believe one picture representing all genocides is appropriate. If this is indeed settled we will have to turn to the other repetitive and lengthy phrasing of German history, excessive and double pictures and the excessive amnount of first level titles, which I fixed in my recent edits. gidonb 13:49, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Part I
I'm currently making a list of the major deletions and changes which Gidonb has made on May 6th. This is very tiresome, because it appears that Gidonb has made more than 50 edits in one single evening. Anyway, here is the first batch.
In the same "Culture" section, Gidonb also deletes the following:
So this is the first batch of Gidonb's deletions which I've put on my list. More of the same tomorrow. - Heimdal 15:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I fully stand behind these and other improvements I have made to the article. I am one of many who think that this article is way to detailed for a country's main entry. I hope Heimdal will put more of my shortenings to discussion WITH THE COMPLETE EDIT SUMMARIES, as, where included, the above deletions illustrate the thorough thought, detail and effort I made in getting back to the basics one would expect to find in a country's main entry. gidonb 16:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
And anyway, we don't need your "shortening" here. The Germany page is a competitive 47KB long, as compared to the 60KB of the United States page. But I really don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can always go to the United States article and start your destruction work over there. - Heimdal 16:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Andries, but who accused me of editing an "extremely biased" article, and who tried to badmouth me on this talk page in the first place? - Heimdal 16:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I am still waiting for Heimdal's apologies for insult after insult. Also I insist that I will not be part of the title, when we deal with the shortening in the article, because others participated. I can and will not claim all the credit. Also, I nowhere claimed that my only interest is the Holocaust. Yes, I am Jewish, but I have many interests. Also in this respect, my insistance was with including the other genocides. I think after apologies we can get down to the issues. gidonb 17:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Apologise for what, Gidonb. Did you ever apologise to me? Also, it's not true that "others participated" in your destruction work. I've gone through the edits, and what I can say for sure is that the destruction was done by you alone. Yes, I think you're Jewish. But certainly you're not the only Jewish person on Wikipedia. And I've never seen anyone else make such a big fuss about the wording of the Holocaust here but you alone. - Heimdal 17:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I invite everyone to read through the edit history, Heimdal's remarks above and the rest of the page, including the poll in which everyone sided to have the history section shortened. gidonb 18:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
The poll is old, Gidonb. Consensus shifts. - Heimdal 18:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
That is your opinion. Your insults and the constant reverting of the title of this section makes discussion rather impossible. I was not the only one to shorten the article. gidonb 18:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb, it can't be the aim of a poll to put straightjackets upon those who actually work on the article, do we agree? But I don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can move over to the United States page, which is much longer than this article ever was, without anyone over there making a great fuss about it. Do your patriotic duty, Gidonb! Be a man! - Heimdal 18:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I reject the way Heimdal talks. Also, I disagree that this article belongs only to Germans and those in the US should edit the US article. All Wikipedia articles belong to everyone. Also I believe that certain sections should receive more attention, for example the large moslim community in Germany which received far less attention than the "growing" Jewish population in Germany. gidonb 18:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I think I react the way I educate my children to do: with maximum self-constraint. As to your proposal, yes why not? Sorry but I do not take any joy in being insulted here time and again, here and on about everyone's talk page, with the most ridiculous claims (supposedly I am well known to hate Germany and Germans, think they are all Nazis, I am a little PhD student and so on so forth). By the way I am of German descent myself and actively promote German culture. If it would solve the major problems of the Germany page, and others will come back and contribute, I would go for it! gidonb 00:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I would never flame at you, Doric Loon. I know that your are a good-willing person. Regarding your suggestion. I joined Wikipedia some months because I thought that I had something useful to contribute to this article. I come from Germany, and I'm greatly interested in Germany. I have worked on this page since January, trying to make a better and more interesting article of it. I'm sorry that Gidonb doesn't see it this way. I'm even more sorry to know that you don't see it this way either. - Heimdal 19:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
And if I came back after a month, what then? Gidonb would be back as well, and everything would start all over again. Perhaps the best thing to do is to put this case to the arbitration committee. Although I don't like the idea very much, because I don't have any experience with arbitration. - Heimdal 19:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is already a main article on the history of Germany, and that the section given should be a much briefer summary of the contents of that article. There also seems to be a lot of consensus for that on the Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
hey, while it is obivous that Heimdal is annoyed at gidonb, for the reasons he stated, I don't see his remarks as particularly insulting. He's annoyed, and says so, that's not an insult per se. At least, I have been insulted much worse on WP without batting an eyelid. The deletions may be arguable, but the question is, did gidonb discuss them at the time he made them? If not, why not? Yes, the article should be shorter, and gidonb may get consensus for some of his removals, but that's beside the point if he didn't bother to discuss. dab (ᛏ) 09:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Right, I'll defend my edits: 1, Listing off the border countries of a nation in the introduction is tedious and long-winded. It doesn't do the article any favours, especially when the same text can be found further down. I consider that a sentence stating the country's position and the fact that it has lots of neighbours replaces the list (Which can still be found further down the page if the reader is interested enough to read on) a lot more concisely. 2, There is no need to say that Germany is a member-state of those international organisations, as their only members ARE states. 3, Likewise 'G8' on it's own says it all. i.e Germany is a member of the Group of 8- no 'nations' is needed. 4, '...what is now the EU' implies that Germany helped to found the predecessor and not the current body. Thus mentioning the EEC is superfluous. 5, Saying 'it' at the start of the third paragraph also omits unnecessary repetition of 'Germany', considering that this has been said in the first two.
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them... I have others."- Groucho Marx :op Rednaxela 20:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In the light of a series of revolutionary movements in Europe in 1848, particularly following the revolution in France, which once more established a republic, revolution broke out in Germany." - This sentence has too many appositions. Okay, so it may be factually and gramatically exact, but it makes for horrible reading. Rednaxela 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why do people in America consider people like Albert Einstein German? There is no such thing as a German-Jew, it's just a feel good term invented by Moses Mendelssohn. I propose a vote to forbid the use of the term German-Jew, one cannot be both German and Jewish.
I think the term "German-Jew" is being used by Gidonb. - Heimdal 09:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The question is whether the Jewish population should be mentioned in the Demography section or in Religion. In the previous version the Jews were mentioned in Religion, before Gidonb moved them to Demography. I would question that decision. Because officially Germany does not make any distinction between Germans and Jews. If a person of Jewish faith has the German citizenship, he or she is registered as German - if otherwise, he or she is counted as "Foreigner". It's simply a matter of faith, not of ethnicity. That's why I would put them back to Religion. - Heimdal 09:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
There a lot of Jews (and not jewish people like me) living in Germany today that would object to one cannot be both German and Jewish. Nevfennas 14:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be "Jewish German" (like Jewish American) ? - Heimdal 14:45, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
OF COURSE there is such a thing as a German Jew. Just listen to the president of the Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland on how he feels about the assumption that he must be an Israeli... -- Doric Loon 19:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't react to this kind of trollish comment (the original comment)! Saintswithin 20:34, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The problem with "jewish" people is that they make no distinction between someone who is of jewish blood and someone that belongs to that "religion" Dudtz 7/21/05 7:00 PM EST
Since the page is protected, I would like to post some proposals for (rather minor) changes.
"The medieval empire – known for much of its existence as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation – stemmed from a division of the Carolingian Empire in 843, which was founded by Charlemagne on December 25th, 800, and existed in varying forms until 1806."
The 2nd foundation by Otto I in 962 should be mentioned.
"During these almost thousand years, the Germans expanded their influence with the help of the Catholic Church, Northern Crusades and the Hanseatic League."
Northern Crusades is awkward. There was only one "crusade" in the North, please use another term.
Also the decline of royal/imperial power since 1250 should be mentioned.
From: "In 1530, the Protestant Reformation of Catholicism failed, and a separate Protestant church was acknowledged as a new state religion in many German states." To: "After 1517 the Protestant Reformation broke out and spread through Germany.This resulted in the religious split of the country and in 1555 it was left to the princes to determine the religious affiliation of their respective territories."
From: "In 1890 Bismarck was dismissed by the new Emperor William II due to the prudent foreign policy and personal differences." Into: "In 1890 Bismarck was dismissed by the new Emperor William II due to differences about foreign and internal policies and also because of personal differences." Explanation: "due to the prudent foreign policy" is a rather awkward wording - I guess Bismarck's policy is supposed to be prudent, but certainly Wilhelm saw it differently. There were also differences about internal policy, e.g. social security, fight against the Social Democrats.
From: "in the Night of the Long Knives, ostensibly to end homosexual vices" To: "in the Night of the Long Knives, ostensibly to preempt a paramilitary coup against the government" Reason: though Röhm's homosexuality played some part and was used by Hitler for propaganda, the "real supposed reason" was that Röhm & the SA were planning a coup against the government, a 2nd revolution, to replace the regular army with the Sa paramilitary. Fears of this were widespread and Hitler shrewdly used this to portray himself as the moderate.
Also "left-wing" opposition is a bit awkward in regard to the SA. Yes, in a way, it's true, but then again, it isn't.
"German Parliament is made up of the Bundestag and the Bundesrat."
That's wrong. The two don't form one body with two chambers (as in the UK or the USA), both are distinct bodies of the legislative branch. The Bundestag is the parliament and shouldn't be called a the lower house. Contrasted with the Bundesrat, the Bundestag is actually more important. Parallels to the UK or the USA are misleading. Accordingly, the Bundesrat shouldn't be called the upper house.
In the Education section, it should be mentioned that school education is a matter of the individual states and hence there are differences in the respective school systems.
Str1977 22:51, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I read the (London-based) Economist every week, and I think to have seen the word "upper house" being used more than once with reference to the Bundesrat. - Heimdal 13:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The Bundesrat consists of members of the current goverments of the german states. Each state is allocated between 3 and 7 votes (69 total), depending on the size of the state (roughly). How these votes are cast is decided by the goverment of the state, usually formed by a coalition. If the partners of the coalition disagree on an issue, the state usually abstents (splitting the votes is explicitly forbidden by the constitution). The Bundesrat can only vote on laws that effect the states direct interests (e.g. taxes with revenues given to the states). The area of direct interest is divided into one where the Bundesrat must agree to laws and one where the Bundesrat can only object, with the Bundestag being able to overrule the objection with Chancellors Majority. AFAIK the upper houses have to agree to all laws, therefore the Bundesrat is not an upper house. Nevfennas 14:22, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Nevfennas, do a quick Google search, and you will see that the word "upper house" in connection with the Bundesrat is used pretty much everywhere. - Heimdal 14:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not denying that, but the Bundesrat in the hand of the opposition is far less a problem for the ruling party than e.g. the US Senate. But maybe it's better to leave that to the Bundesrat-page. Nevfennas 14:40, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
But compare with the UK, where the "upper house" is practically of nuisance value only, and was permanently in the hands of one party for quite literally centuries, with only moderate problems for governments of other parties with commons majorities; or other countries with vaguely similar systems such as Ireland. Seems a perfectly justifiable usage (as well as being a fairly common one, as noted by Heimdal) in this broader sense, rather than the singular comparison with the US Senate per se. Alai 22:53, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I know that "upper house" is used quite frequently for the Bundesrat. That is why I jumped when I read it here. Magazines may print things like this, but it doesn't make them any truer. Wiki, as an ecyclopedia, should refrain from that. I know where they are coming from. They compare the German system with the US one, where the Senate is the representative of the states and is also the upper house both in honour (senate) and in powers (confirmation of ministers, judges etc, impeachment court). Though the UK's House of Lords (--Aside: Alai, you're mistaken, the Lords have been divided along party lines since the 17th century, as long as there are parties in England---) is much less powerful than the Commons, this wasn't always so (relly only after 1910 or so) and it also has the "primacy of honour". The Bundesrat however is, despite its current nuissance value, considered a lesser institution compared to the Bundestag (the President of the Bundestag is ranking second just behind the Federal President, and above the Chancellor (3rd) and the President of the Bundesrat (4th), though the latter can fill in for the Federal President). Also, neither Bundestag nor Bundesrat are actually houses or chambers of a more comprehensive body, as it is the case in the USA and the UK. The two are distinct bodies of the legislative branch. The Bundestag is the German parliament and in it the legislative power is vested - the Bundesrat participates in that process. Again, I know, English papers are trying to give a quick explanation of the Bundesrat by calling it "upper house" (whether this works, I don't know), but Wiki explains it well enough, so it doesn't need this supposed parallel. Str1977 23:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Str1977, I'm aware it's divided on party lines: how does that go to my point at all, much less demonstrate me mistaken? It's had a large in-built Tory/Conservative majority for the preponderance of that time, regardless of whether the commons was controlled by the Whigs, Liberals, or Labour Party. Perhaps it wasn't clear what I meant by "in the hands": that denotes "control", not "exclusive occupancy". On the substantiative issue, if we've established that British sources (with their model of a highly ineffective "upper house"), American sources (with a very different one), and Wikipedia (also see: Upper house for a fuller discussion of the proper scope of the term) all find this a useful descriptor, despite obvious inexactitudes in the implied comparisons, then I don't see how the usage is questionable here. Alai 02:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Alai, as regards the "Lords" - "mistaken" was strictly limited to your saying, that the Lords were controlled by one party for centuries. There have been preponderance this way and that way, both Whigs and Tories. You are right of course, if you say, that the Lords were and are generally more conservative (not a party, but a view) than the Commons, but I guess they are supposed to be. On the substantive issue, I'll stand by my points made above. Str1977 10:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I am unprotecting this article again. I have discussed this with Mackensen, and he agreed we should give it a try. I am playing the "uninvolved admin" here, in spite of my couple of comments towards compromise above, since I haven't made an edit to the article yet.
My rationale for unprotecting is:
The rules for further editing are:
Does that sound like a deal? I would ask admins not to re-protect after the first two or three reverts. Let's see if this will calm down. Both gidonb and Heimdal will realize that just reverting each other will yield no result, whatsoever except wasting everybody's time and make them look childish. Another rule is, if you feel very annoyed, take a break for a couple of hours, and see what the others could figure out when you return. dab (ᛏ) 09:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Concerning anything that is personal or without direct impact on Germany, in the dispute between Heimdal and gidonb, I do encourage you to open an rfc. You could even agree to open a 'joint' rfc, where you both invite outside views on your disputes, rather than have one accusing and one defending party. People will be able to look into the history of your dispute on that rfc, and it won't clog up this page so much anymore. You should not open an arbitration case before that rfc as reached a dead end, Heimdal. dab (ᛏ) 09:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Good move. I promise that I won't revert the page. Instead, I will simply re-add all the things that Gidonb deleted, and discuss them here. Einverstanden? - Heimdal 09:43, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
no, no, don't add them all at once! start with the less controversial ones. see how people react. Take it slowly, there is no deadline. dab (ᛏ) 10:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think Jayjg has a point here. If you look at the history section on other country pages, it usually isn't longer than two paragraphs. The bulk is on the "History of <name>" page. The history section on Germany is over twice the size of that on France, whose history is equally ancient. I would also agree with Dbachmann that there's no rush, and that bringing the matter to the community's attention through an RfC would be very beneficial (especially for the article itself). Mackensen (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the history section is quite long. But as I've repeatedly pointed out, the article itself is not. The Germany page (previous version) was 47KB long, whereas the United States page has a length of 61KB. Alai should please explain why Germany should be drastically "pruned" while the United States is allowed to expand. This page has seen too many deletions already. Let the page evolve, and please refrain from putting straightjackets on those who are working on this article. - Heimdal 10:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
BTW, there seems to be a technical problem on the History of this talk page. A post of May 10th is being dragged throughout the History page. Any idea how to avoid that? Thanks. - Heimdal 10:13, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
If the length of the History section is brought to the RfC, I think it would be fair to put the length of the United States page to the community's attention as well. Heimdal 10:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the length of the History section is connected with Germany's unusual past. I'm glad that Andries has pointed this out. - Heimdal 11:21, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
I would just like to point out to User:Alai that most of Gidonb's "trimming" had nothing to do with the History section. Gidonb has deleted indiscriminately throughout the whole article (he even removed parts of the Culture section), which was simply not necessary. I intend to put that all back. As regards the disputed History section. If that section is going to be shortened, it should be done in a way that is balanced and fair. Because I for one would never agree to a History section in which Nazi Germany and the Holocaust are the centrepiece, and everything else is only mentioned at random. - Heimdal 11:45, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, I don't see anything wrong with the current size. However, if you disagree, I suggest that you go over to the United States page and try to convince the people to delete that article by half. Surely there is no bloating over there, or is there, Jayig? - Heimdal 10:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I, too, think the seize of the history section is now better but I fail to see why the sections shouldn't deserve two pictures each. To my mind pictures really enliven articles, which you can easily recognize when looking at the article for propaganda. In addition they (can) give a more accurate impression. To show the heyday of nazism in "Third Reich" is one thing, but to cast the fall of it, the victory in Berlin, quite another. You could say that only showing the prime is one-sided and adding the another picture would make it a complete picture, thus more unbiased. What the History-section also lacks is the right proportion. The time up to the German Empire is clearly understated, especially the time shortly before the German Empire: nationalism, liberalism, Congress of Vienna, Dutscher Bund, Restauration, Wartburg meeting, Hambacher Fest... Revolation of 1848/49, Paulskirche, the falling through of the revolution, you name it. They should without any doubt receive their own paragraph. There are reasons why the 19th century is often referred to as the "long" 19th century. The History-section could and should mirror that length. The Weimarer Republik, by contrast, is a bit overstated, just like the single actions in WW1. History books like to make only little mention of it anyway. But I guess you have problems other than the content of the 19th century right now. Oh well, sooner or later I'm going to fix the paragraph myself, but I'm afraid not anytime soon. NightBeAsT 23:12, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
This article desperately needs a section on the German legal system. (This could cross-reference to German legal citation, Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, etc., though a full article on the German legal system will eventually be a desideratum). Anyone feel up to writing it? -- Doric Loon 21:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The sentence about administrative law is wrong. Administrative Law is codified nationally (VwGO,VwVfG,BVerfGG,etc).
Heimdal, your mass deletion of old matter from this talk page is completely unacceptable. If you don't know how to properly archive then ask someone (like me) who does, but don't just delete comments, especially not those made by other people. Also, comments made in the last few days regarding on-going issues should not be deleted, especially not when such a deletion destroys context. I am going to restore the deleted content, and please don't do that again. Mackensen (talk) 20:06, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Heimdal's brutal behavior, such as through frequent threats, cursing and deliberate vandalisms, and his easy time at getting away with it, prove that Heimdal can do whatever he likes on the Germany page and its talk page. This is made possible by the fact that users like me, with an excellent reputation around Wikipedia, do not like to be slurred through the mud time and again by Heimdal, while being assisted by an opinionated contributor to the talk page, who takes clear personal and mostly similar stands, albeit in a milder language.
This user, administrator Dbachmann, draws clear parallels between the attacker and his victims, while he totally disregards Heimdal's agressive language, as wel as Heimdal's deliberate deletions of large sections of the very same talk page he, Dbachmann, uses to insult those who would like to make a positive contribution to the Germany page ("childish behavior"). Dbachmann, who placed plea after plea to change Heimdal's 'bitter luck' on Mckensen's page and unprotected the Germany page after he was asked not to, also contributed to my talk page where he implied that I should leave Wikipedia!
While this is the state of affairs, I completely understand why so many stopped their efforts at improving the quality of the Germany page. As a "little PhD student", by Heimdal's definition, who truely cares about this page and about Wikipedia in general and the way we interact, I would like to request that we freeze the Germany page again, until we get to the bottom of the issues while talking to the many excellent contributors who left after being attacked by Heimdal, the way he attacked me the last two weeks. gidonb 03:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
No you are not. I called the user by his name and I saw you clearly protest some of Heimdal's methods, which are made possible with the support of the administrator I mentioned. gidonb 12:24, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that this page be protected again. I won't accept any further deletions by Gidonb. - Heimdal 11:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the pic of the German pope because his fucntion is mainly international and I think a pic of him is overdoing it. Andries 11:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Quantity of Jews in Germany today [4] Andries 12:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
All my improvements to this page were thoroughly explained. If they are massreverted without proper explenations, that is vandalism. But then again, what is new. He vandalises the talk page regularly and the article even more often, and has an administrator to back him up. gidonb 12:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
As Heimdal's vandalism to this page seems to continue at full speed, although his methods were yesterday exposed, I think that protecting this page and discussing the ongoing issues, where good contributors are discredited until they leave, is actually a good option. gidonb 12:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I didn't touch the History section, and I demand that Gidonb does the same. I'm only readding deleted things outside History which were good and useful information, based on facts not bias. - Heimdal 12:53, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
You are continuing to vandalize both the talk page and the article itself and no one seems to care. gidonb 13:01, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, the information may not be useful to *you*, but perhaps it may be useful to others? Also, regarding the alleged "bloating". I kindly ask you to go over to the United States page and convince the people over there to delete half the article. Surely, an article of the size of 61KB must be full of "bloat", or not? - Heimdal 16:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjig, I demand fairness. It seems like the hysteria about the article's length seems to be particular to this page. Nobody is making a big deal about the 61KB on the US talk page. It looks like Germany and the United States are being treated differently on Wikipedia. Besides, your accusation of "page ownership" is absolutely ridiculous. I'm only asking that this page be treated in the same way as the United States article: That this page be left to develop freely, without someone deleting the page every few weeks. - Heimdal 16:45, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I object to the Heimdal's patronizing summary edit: "Who asked you to move edits to other articles anyway. Just stop it." Who is going to stop his brutal behavior? Also, how can one demand fairness, if one treats everyone who wants to contribute to this page utterly unfair, decieves, patronizes, vandalizes, curses and what have you? gidonb 17:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to the protection of this page. There are serious issues with the conducts around this page, which ought to be discussed in a serious manner. gidonb 17:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, but why Germany and not the United States. Please explain why the US article should be allowed to be twice the size of this page. I can't see any fairness in that. - Heimdal 17:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The main issue of the Germany page is the fact that contributors get attacked and contributions to the article and its talk page are almost daily vandalized. The Untied States has 4.5 times the population of Germany and about 28 times its territory. It may have some faults too, but this is hardly the place to discuss them. I think you are side-tracking the problem. gidonb 17:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, if 32KB is fair for Germany it should be fair for any country. I demand equal treatment of all country-related articles. Certainly, we don't want to give readers the impression that the United States is granted privileged status on Wikipedia, do we? - Heimdal 18:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I restored the version of Academic Challanger after unsummarized edits by an anonymous user. After the change we have had two images of the Brandenburger Gate, but none of the Berlin Wall, so this was probably a bad idea. This was the reason the Brandenburger Gate, rather than the Wall, was removed to begin with when reducing the excessive picture material on this page. gidonb 20:26, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Article about a country, especially a major one like Germany, should have 320kb :) I would object to this being FA if it had less the 32kb anyway, I think a good FA should have at least 32kb. Btw, this talk page needs archiving fast, it is enormous. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have just gone through all the edits of the last 24 hours, which took me a half an hour which I really could have put to better use. It is quite clear that Heimdal and Gidonb are still not listening to each other, and in my view they have both lost track of the cooperative spirit of this project. But of the two, it is Gidonb who is really out of order. The word "vandal" is an insult, it is a deliberate provocation which can only exacerbate problems, and it only shows Gidonb in a very bad light. Please avoid inflamatory language. Besides, it is slightly absurd: if you think about it logically, deleting text is destroying someone's work, and it is deleting, not restoring, which is closer to vandalism. Some material of mine was deleted by Gidonb yesterday. Well, maybe it was of no great importance, but consultation would have been nice. Apart from the history section, this article needs to be fuller, not shorter. So please do not delete substantive material unless there is agreement here first. -- Doric Loon 20:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Hello Doric, as mentioned it was not deleted but moved to the in-depth article. This was very helpful since the topic was totally omitted there. I understand and regret your personal discomfort, but I thought the edit was necessary for the overall balance of this article and not because the text was wrong. The text was moved "as is" and enriches the other article. Jayjg: I intend to move on if the order is truely restored at this article and some balance will be kept. I never mean to dictate as my opinions are as good as these of anyone else. I understand that some of the users who already gave up on this page will soon be back. I do think I have a very modest hand in this change, if indeed it happens. We'll wait and see. gidonb 21:02, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I never have or will delete anything lightly. I always approach the creative work of others with utmost respect. I wish everyone would behave that way. Things then would work better, especially at this page. gidonb 03:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with moving detail from a general article like this to to an article that is supposed to cover a sub topic in more detail like geography of Germany. However I let articles grow larger than this one before I bother doing that. For example Polish September Campaign was getting really big, so I summarized the ==Opposing forces== section and moved the detail to Opposing forces in the Polish September Campaign. More work is needed in other parts of that article, but the more compact treatment will be useful to a larger audience (most people lack the time or interest to read really long articles). See Wikipedia:Summary style. -- mav 03:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I have inserted a brief description of the legal system and cross-referenced. I also changed the title of this section from "politics" to "constitution". Politics is all about political parties, in most people's usage. Maybe we should have a short section here on politics, but this ain't it.-- Doric Loon 13:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with the many sub sections that Gidonb introduces. Military is financed by the government but can not be a subsection of the government. After all the Germans are not governed by the military. Compare e.g. France and United States. Besides, Wikipedia guidelines say that many subsections are to be avoided. I will revert. Andries 15:20, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
The military is typically subordinate to the government. In Germany it certainly is. I will change it once more, because this may not look good. If someone objects to the notion that the the military, just like foreign affairs, is part of the executive branch of government, please explain why. Thank you. gidonb 16:52, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
This statement does not make sense to me. Are you sure you stand behind it yourself? gidonb 18:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I would say that the military is controlled by the Ministry of Defence. The Minister of Defence is part of the government. The military itself is part of the administrative burocracy - just like the BaFin (the body that controls banks and financial institutions) is part of the administrative burocracy of the Ministry of Finance. Luis rib 18:13, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I checked several other country articles i.e. USA, France, Netherlands, Switzerland and none of them had the military as sub section the government. Besides following the same reason as Luis we could also argue that education should fall under government which, I think, would be very strange. Andries 18:18, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
This is a discussion which may also be held in other articles. While we are editing this article, I believe we should ascertain that the subsections of this article are nested properly, at least that is what Wikipedia suggests.
For some countries (but not the ones you mentioned), the military (still a government agency or government agencies) operates somewhat independently from the government. In this case, while formally part of the executive branch of government structure, it may be correct to see this reflected also in the subsection structure. These countries however are by definition undemocratic. I hope nobody wants to suggest that Germany is not a democracy, as is the case with such countries. Perhaps the suggestion that the military is not part of the government stems from a sometimes narrower use of government in German and Dutch, as compared to English.
The case with education is different. Some private provision of education is common in most countries (and such provision does not directly affect a country's status as a democracy). Furthermore, with education in the context of a country article, we also refer to various levels of education obtained by the population, such as in the proportion of high school graduates or literacy rate, which may be a result of many policies and circumstances, among them education policies, location, immgration, but even colonial background and natural resources may have some (indirect) impact. gidonb 19:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
As a federation, German has two level sovereign governments, each level exercising powers as defined in the German Constitution. Below these are governments without sovereign powers (local government or local state). All these are forms of German government. Thus, to ensure proper nesting, we should ascertain that the states are being correctly defined as part of government. Feel free revert if you disagree, but do explain why you believe that the German states (länder) are not German government. gidonb 11:00, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Andries, it's probably beacuse of me, but I do not understand you. If you agree that both the states and the military are part of German government, why care about the US article? Why not look at the issue and what can be improved? After all this is the Germany article and its talk page. On the other hand, if you care more about the US article than about what makes what substantive sense, why don't you make the changes there? Just some food for thought. I will be glad to hear any substantive objections. Best, gidonb 11:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Doric Loon, I dislike the general tone of your latest piece. I am concerned that this might brings us back to place we started from, a bad place, with an unpleasant exchange of opinions. Perhaps you can restate your objections in a less personal manner. If you cannot, I will try to do with what we have. gidonb 12:55, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is what I meant with the personal tone. Calling a person you disagree with heavy-handed does not advance any discussions or better listening. The latter, by the way, is precisely what this page lacks. gidonb 13:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
No no no, I moved a section back to the place where it makes more sense to have it, after explaining this movement. Please review your line of unpleasant conclusions accordingly. Lets keep this civilized. gidonb 14:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Though I don't deny the influence of this statesman on German history, his section in the history section seems way out of proportion if we compare it with other important German historic figures. Also, Bismark is given a glowing description, even though he's considered to be the father of Realpolitik (i.e. amoral politics). If there's no opposition, I shall reduce it a bit. Luis rib 15:38, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose that everything on this page before the sub-heading "this remains a very biased page" be archived. If no-one objects I shall do so around this time tomorrow. Mackensen (talk) 16:17, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more. Thanks in advance. NightBeAsT 16:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Why, after reading the post of Maveric149 on Friday May 20th, I have the feeling that I've been tricked. I have been told here that this article should be no longer than the recommended size of 32KB. But now I'm reading in Maveric's post that - hear and behold - it is allowed to "let articles grow larger than this one". Besides, it appears that the recommended size is an outdated issue, which was once adopted because the old browsers could not handle articles longer than 32KB. Then I've been told that the length of the History section is incompatible with Wikipedia policy. But now again, here's what Maveric's post says:
For the record, the article Polish September Campaign was 59KB long before Maveric149 intervened to move parts of it to other articles. The Germany page on its part has never been longer than 47KB, far away from the dimensions of the Polish article, let alone of the United States page. That's why Maveric149 has never intervened on this article to cut the size of the History section: Because the length of the Germany page did not justify such an intervention. Based on what Maveric149 has said in his post, starting tomorrow on Monday, I for my part intend to gradually restore all the parts that have been removed from the Germany article in the last couple of weeks if not months. If the restored parts are removed again, I will revert the page. I'm ready to make full use of my right to revert as much as 3 times per day if necessary. I intend to continue reverting the page until the cancellations stop. In the case that the page should be protected again, I'm ready to put the case to the arbitration committee, as I regard the deletions that have been made, and all the various attempts to put curbs on the article and on those who work on the page as illegal. In the future I will respect interventions that are aimed at reducing the size of the article and of single sections only by Maveric149 himself. However, I don't think that such an intervention will happen, because there is no reason for it. In fact, there never has been any. - Heimdal 16:00, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
But I've never agreed that my edits be removed by Gidonb! Where does Gidonb take the right to cancel them? Also, this article has never been longer than 47KB, as compared to the 61KB of the US article. Trying to put curbs on this article but not on the United States page cannot be fair, and I'm ready to raise this issue to the arbitration committee if necessary. Also, if I understand Maveric's post well, there's nothing wrong with having a longer History section here, as long as the Germany page itself does not become too long. So just stop fussing about the size of History. - Heimdal 10:43, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, just let me start putting back - *slowly* - all the things that Gidonb has deleted, and then you can judge yourself whether it's justified to keep them here or not, OK? Regarding the History section. It's not that I'm against shortening the section altogether. But if History is to be shortened, I insist that it be done in a way that is balanced and fair. And for what I can say, previous attempts to shorten History have been neither fair nor balanced. The subsections "Holy Roman Empire", "German Empire" and "Division and Reunification" have all been savagely cut. What has *not* been cut, however, was the "Third Reich" subsection, which has even been expanded further. But I for my part don't want to end up with a History section where the Third Reich and the Holocaust are the centrepiece, and everything else is only mentioned at random. Then I'd say, let us keep the longer version, because at least there was some balance in it. - Heimdal 11:16, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
well, I guess we're still waiting for a list of the points you absolutely want to include. dab (ᛏ) 12:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Dbachmann, I really don't feel like putting up an entire list of all the things that have been removed here in the past couple of weeks, sorry for that. Just let me restore - *slowly* - the removed parts, and you can judge yourself whether it's justified to keep them here or not, OK? - Heimdal 13:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC)