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Frequently asked questions Q1. How did the article get the way it is?
Q2. Why is the article's name "United States" and not "United States of America"?
Isn't United States of America the official name of the U.S.? I would think that
United States should redirect to
United States of America, not vice versa as is the current case.
Q3. Is the United States really the oldest constitutional republic in the world?
1. Isn't
San Marino older?
2. How about Switzerland?
Many people in the United States are told it is the oldest republic and has the oldest constitution, however one must use a narrow definition of constitution. Within Wikipedia articles it may be appropriate to add a modifier such as "oldest continuous, federal ..." however it is more useful to explain the strength and influence of the US constitution and political system both domestically and globally. One must also be careful using the word "democratic" due to the limited franchise in early US history and better explain the pioneering expansion of the democractic system and subsequent influence.
Q4. Why are the Speaker of the House and Chief Justice listed as leaders in the infobox? Shouldn't it just be the President and Vice President?
The President, Vice President, Speaker of The House of Representatives, and Chief Justice are stated within the United States Constitution as leaders of their respective branches of government. As the three branches of government are equal, all four leaders get mentioned under the "Government" heading in the infobox. Q5. What is the motto of the United States?
There was no de jure motto of the United States until 1956, when "In God We Trust" was made such. Various other unofficial mottos existed before that, most notably "E Pluribus Unum". The debate continues on what "E Pluribus Unum"'s current status is (de facto motto, traditional motto, etc.) but it has been determined that it never was an official motto of the United States. Q6. Is the U.S. really the world's largest economy?
The United States was the world's largest national economy from
about 1880 and largest by nominal GDP from about 2014, when it surpassed the
European Union. China has been
larger by Purchasing Power Parity,
since about 2016. Q7. Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as "America" or its people as "American"?
In English, America (when not preceded by "North", "Central", or "South") almost always refers to the United States. The large super-continent is called the Americas. Q8. Why isn't the treatment of
Native Americans given more weight?
The article is written in
summary style and the
sections "Indigenous peoples" and "European colonization" summarize the situation. |
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In the disambiguation page for America [1], it is specified that "America is a short-form name for the United States of America". However, the United States aren't known officially as the "United States of America", instead they are just the "United States". The name of the article is United States, and not United States of America. The nation is called "United States" and "of America" is only an unofficial addition to distinguish with other nations that go by United States. This is useless nowadays, considering that when "United States" is mentioned it is always referring to the one in America, unless said otherwise. Furthermore, America is a common name for much more than just the US, and nowadays it is much more common to see "America" being used to refer to the continent rather than the nation. 2804:14D:5C50:889E:6913:F93D:EA87:874C ( talk) 01:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
A series examining the country's vast environmental inequalities and how climate change will make things worse(emphasis added). When English-language reliable sources use America, it almost always is used to refer to the United States. - Aoidh ( talk) 01:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
There's recently been a massive, radical restructuring of articles surrounding relations between the indigenous peoples of the Americas and the United States. Generally in the form of calling events that were previously predominately labeled as "ethnic cleansing", "mass atrocities", and "forced population transfers" and referring to the events as "genocidal" instead. This is despite the fact that this viewpoint is a small minority among historians, political scientists, and anthropologists.
The titles for these articles in of themselves are problematic:
According to Jeffrey Ostler — who holds perhaps one of the most "negative maximalist" viewpoints of American actions among mainstream scholars — this is a small minority viewpoint among those working in the field:
This is not because there is a consensus behind the “pro-genocide” position. In fact, although few scholars in the fields of American Indian and western U.S. history have systematically addressed the question of genocide, for many, perhaps most, scholars in these fields, an overarching indictment of genocide seems too extreme. Some might label specific events and cases, such as the Sand Creek massacre of 1864 or widespread settler violence against Indians during the California Gold Rush, as genocidal, but they would not see U.S. policies and settler actions as consistently so. Others would resist arguments for even limited genocide in U.S. history, citing definitions of genocide that would appear to require a federal government policy to physically destroy all (or most) Indians and observing that federal policies were intended to prevent physical disappearance by promoting assimilation. Some scholars would propose ethnic cleansing as an appropriate alternative to genocide. Others might consider assimilation to be a form of cultural genocide but would insist on a strong distinction between this policy and physical elimination.
and:
Since 1992, the argument for a total, relentless, and pervasive genocide in the Americas has become accepted in some areas of Indigenous studies and genocide studies. For the most part, however, this argument has had little impact on mainstream scholarship in U.S. history or American Indian history. Scholars are more inclined than they once were to gesture to particular actions, events, impulses, and effects as genocidal, but genocide has not become a key concept in scholarship in these fields.
Note that I support keeping the contents for the article but renaming the page.
The California genocide article is also problematic. It has been changed from:
Other articles such as:
Have similarly been rewritten to imply that this is an overwhelming consensus. Tagging @ ShirtNShoesPls:, @ Mason.Jones:, @ Moxy:, @ FMSky:, @ Rambling Rambler:, and @ Rockstone35:.
Many editors seem to be classifying all ethnic cleansing/population transfers, atrocities, et al. as inherently genocidal, which isn't accepted by a majority of scholars.
This is probably a discussion that needs to be had. Since I can't imagine that any version of these pages aren't going to generate controversy. KlayCax ( talk) 02:24, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Indeed it was more than five years ago that an RfC on the California genocide determined language that should be used in that section. Oddly, the words California genocide do not appear in the article despite that consensus, and all the sources have been deleted from the article. Can someone point to a more recent RfC consensus or should we reinstate the language and sources decided upon in September 2018? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 18:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
As it turns out, it was @ KlayCax: on 1 October 2023 who removed the reference to the California Genocide which had been in the article since the 2018 RfC with no edit summary. No consensus was sought on the talk page for this change. (Looking back, I see that I started this discussion which did not yield a consensus to overturn the previous RfC.) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 19:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Genocide is one of the more serious labels, so the sourcing had better be impeccable and unanimous before applying it in wikivoice. It is a powerfully condemnatory word, and thus represents a major prize for anyone who can successfully brand their opponents with it.. There's no consensus (and it's a minority viewpoint) that the events in California were genocide. (See Ostler, 2015; Magliari, 2023) Thus, Wikipedia shouldn't state so in Wikivoice. Consensus can also change. I'll start a RFC if necessary, but words such as genocide should be avoided unless there's a historical consensus. Adding it into the article otherwise presents significant WP: NPOV concerns. KlayCax ( talk) 23:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
In the often contentious and acrimonious debates over whether the Golden State’s Indigenous peoples were targeted for genocide by white Euro-Americans between 1846 and 1873. That's why it shouldn't be in the article. The WP: ONUS would be on including this.
You say that consensus can change. However, no consensus has developed for your deletion of this content in the months that you've been deleting it. I noticed in the
California genocide article that Magliari's view is not what you would have us believe. These are the final words of his review of the Yale University source you deleted: Madley’s case for genocide is overwhelming and compelling in many specific instances. As his evidence makes plain, deliberately exterminatory campaigns devastated at least eighteen California tribes, including the Achumawi, Karuk, Lassik, Nisenan, Nongatl, Owens Valley Paiute, Pomo, Shasta, Sinkyone, Tolowa, Wailaki, Wappo, Whilkut, Wintu, Wiyot, Yana, Yuki, and Yurok. Beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt (and by the standards of any reasonable definition), genocide did in fact play a significant role in the US conquest and subjugation of Native California.
(source accessible
here via Wikipedia Library (Duke))
I'm not sure why you're so adamant about overturning this prior consensus when the scholar you are citing quite clearly disagrees with you. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
It is interesting to note that @ KlayCax: has removed about 5K of sourced material from another entry based on an alleged consensus that seems rather opposed to what I'm reading above. ( diff) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 15:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[Holocaust is] the planned physical annihilation, for ideological or pseudo-religious reasons, of all the members of a national, ethnic, or racial group.Anything else is highly subjective and prone to inconsistency.
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574 Native American tribes are recognized in the United States. Add this information to the demographics section
Source: https://www.usa.gov/indian-tribes-alaska-native 193.187.88.197 ( talk) 22:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
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169 Native American languages are spoken in the United States. Add this information to languages section.
Source: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2011/acs/acsbr10-10.pdf 193.187.88.197 ( talk) 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Prominent historians have rebutted the idea that the California Indian Wars constituted genocide.
Benjamin Madley, for his part, has been almost single-handedly responsible for re-branding the conflicts previously known as the “California Indian Wars” as the California Genocide. It is worth remembering that these are conflicts that just over 20 years ago, the authors of the Cambridge History of the Native Peoples of the Americas saw fit to detail without a single reference to the term “genocide.” Madley himself resorts to describing this as a genocide “hidden in plain sight”—i.e. a “genocide” that generations of historians before him had simply failed to notice. With a relentless focus on violent killing, and a reluctance to contextualize the big picture for the purpose of exaggerating an impression of unending massacre, Madley’s account has convinced many a reader that American officials in California were responsible for something in the neighbourhood of 150,000 violent deaths—a number which is likely 10x higher than the true death toll (including war casualties). For example, Madley’s text prompted a professor at UC Hastings named John Briscoe to write an op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle asserting that: “After 1834… when the native population plummeted from 150,000 to 18,000… Indian hunting was sport for the mostly white gold-seekers and settlers. Indian-hunting raids nearly annihilated the population.” In reality, Madley’s own figures show that “Indian-hunting raids” likely claimed something less than 5% of the 132,000 casualties that Hastings implies in his widely quoted op-ed. Many of the other “missing” Indians might never have existed (i.e. they might be the result of exaggerated population estimates, on which more below). In addition, large numbers will have emigrated to Mexico when the missions were disbanded or when the territory was handed over to the United States, and still others will have assimilated into the US population in various ways. One thing is certain: the nature of our sources requires a caution that the sensationalists singularly lack.
May someone note this on the page? HickTheStick ( talk) 12:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm going to have to get this out of the way, aren't I? The tragic, cruel oppression of the American Indian was truly despicable, and the atrocities committed by European colonizers sicken anyone with a conscience. No sane person does or should deny this.
The article completely ignores the fact that 90% of American Indians were accidentally wiped out by the completely unintentional introduction of Old World diseases. When the European colonizers first landed, they had no way of knowing how diseases spread. They thought it was caused by the "evil eye" or "the Devil." (Epidemiology as a science doesn't come about until the 1830s or 1840s.) Sneezing on somebody or their crops 300+ years before anyone knew that causes bad things does not make someone the equivalent of Hitler. Furthermore, the UN definition of genocide says that there has to be a deliberate policy of extermination (e.g. the Holocaust as perpetrated by Nazi Germany.) California was arguably a genocide because there was a deliberate policy of extermination and said policy was enacted with that goal in mind. The rest of the country? Nope. There has never been any federal policy ordering or implying the desirability of the extermination of the Indians. No order from President Grant or General Sherman/General Sheridan, no Act of Congress, nothing. No evidence is offered by this article to the contrary.
The recent added sentences on "genocide" needs to be deleted because of this issue. I'd make a footnote called: "Debate over Terminology," something to that effect. I'd also include legitimate sources (NOT Michael Medved or the repulsive Stefan Molyneux) that dispute whether or not the term "genocide" is applicable.
Scholars generally see American actions as failing to meet the criteria for genocide (in the vast majority of circumstances). That's just the case. It's also interesting that the citation used to claim it never uses the word "genocide". InvaderMichael ( talk) 18:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
For the most part, however, this argument has had little impact on mainstream scholarship in U.S. history or American Indian history. Scholars are more inclined than they once were to gesture to particular actions, events, impulses, and effects as genocidal, but genocide has not become a key concept in scholarship in these fields. The only plausible case of this, as he mentioned above, to me is California. As their first governor Peter Hardeman Burnett's stated:
That a war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct, must be expected.
Scholars generally agree that the Trail of Tears was not genocide but instead ethnic cleansing: “rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”. The Pulitzer Prize–winning book What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815–1848 also states that "ethnic cleansing" rather than "genocide" is an accurate description for the California Indian Wars/Genocide and Trial of Tears. We don't (and shouldn't) label the Holodomor and similar events as genocide in Wikivoice for the same reason as @ Barnards.tar.gz: mentioned above.
The Pulitzer Prize–winning book What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815–1848 also states that "ethnic cleansing" rather than "genocide" is an accurate description for the California Indian Wars/Genocide and Trial of Tears.This is false, at least as far as the text of the book goes. In the book, it is true that one finds the sentence Today Americans deplore the expropriation and expulsion of racial minorities, a practice now called "ethnic cleansing". ( source) At no point does the author indicate that the white supremacy he talks about repeatedly never added up to genocide as KlayCax suggests. He simply doesn't use the term, as he is not talking about deaths, but about displacements and property rights /white speculation on expropriated Indian territory. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 20:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Scholars generally agree that the Trail of Tears was not genocide but instead ethnic cleansing: “rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”. Ostler comments are brought up below so don't want to fork the conversation. KlayCax ( talk) 20:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The most bloody conflicts, however, derived from the domination and exploitation of the North American continent by the white people of the United States and their government. If a primary driving force can be identified in American history for this period, this was it.( source) I will note with some dismay that this is at least the third time that I've read sources you've given that do not say what you say they do (on several different articles).-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The most bloody conflicts, however, derived from the domination and exploitation of the North American continent by the white people of the United States and their government. If a primary driving force can be identified in American history for this period, this was it.Even people who characterize the events as ethnic cleansing affirm this.
I will note with some dismay that this is at least the third time that I've read sources you've given that do not say what you say they doIt says exactly what I stated. He characterizes the Trail of Tears and (at least until 1848) American-Indian contact in California as a form of ethnic cleansing. (Never mentioning genocide at all in his book.) I suppose you could argue that he may implicitly see it as both genocide and ethnic cleansing. But it would be remarkably strange (to the point of absurdity) for him to just leave it out of the book entirely if he believed that.
it is not a small viewpoint among historians, scholars, academia and reliable authorship... quoting one source that states that as the ultimate authority on the matter. Outside of California, it certainly is, and multiple sources state this. No one here is denying the utter destruction that American actions had on native populations. It's just that the vast majority of this is classified as "ethnic cleansing" or "settler colonialism" rather than genocide.
Why are you so dead set on stating it as a minority viewpointBecause the previous version of the article implied that it was a consensus viewpoint of historians. I'm okay with ethnic cleansing, settler colonialism, and forced displacement, that's pretty uncontroversial with many mainstream historian, but outside of California "genocide" is a small minority viewpoint in the literature. KlayCax ( talk) 20:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
"no consensus exists"then we shouldn't include it in Wikivoice within article. We've already renamed the Uyghur genocide → Persecution of Uyghurs in China.
The term genocide is currently being used a lot for colonial history and even for current events including Xinjiang, Ukraine, and Gaza. There should be a guideline, because there are a lot of issues when using the term. TFD ( talk) 19:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
"no consensus"on how Indian removal policies are classified then we shouldn't say so in Wikivoice. KlayCax ( talk) 14:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
In 1869, a new Peace Policy nominally promised to protect Native-Americans from abuses, avoid further war, and secure their eventual U.S. citizenship. Nonetheless, conflicts and state-sanctioned murder, including the California Genocide, continued throughout the West into the 1900s.Neither is great.
This is a highly contentious topicIf it is, as you said, a highly contentious topic, then why should the claim remain in Wikivoice? I'll note that the wording was recently readded by SashiRolls around a month ago.
But specialists have [generally] not argued that the policy is genocidal.and that
Interestingly, however, most recent scholarship on Indian removal, while supporting the view that the policy was vicious and inhuman, has not addressed the question of genocide. The problem with citing only one historian is that so much has been written about the history of the United States that you can selectively pick books and quotations from reputable historians to bolster any narrative that you want. (From the "god-like American Founding Fathers" to "the genocidal, settler-colonialist, enslavers on lands now known as the United States".)
Please redact my username from this statement, @ KlayCax:. As you are very well aware, the long-standing "phrasing" that you deleted on 1 October 2023 long predates my first contribution to this article on 18 February 2023, at which time the exact phrasing I recently restored had been in the article for four years, when someone slightly modified the original wording from Sept 2018 added after the RfC. Trying to personalize the discussion diverts attention from the fact that it was *you* who deleted long-standing content and supporting references on 1 October 2023. Moreover, the phrasing you deleted on 3 April 2024 is not "my" phrasing either, as the 2019 formulation was modified by somebody else on 25 February 2024, the day after I had restored it. Distorting my role leads me to want to chew on the WP:BAIT 🐟 , but upon reflection I think I'll just post the diffs...
Also, feel free to ping the four editors you claim oppose the content that was in the article from Sept 2018 – October 2023 and from 24 Feb 2024 – 3 April 2024. Additionally, I'm not sure why you're talking about Indian removal in general and about the Trail of Tears when the content you are allegedly disputing refers to neither. This is becoming, as others have said, a timesink.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
If there is no consensus that these acts were genocidal then there is no consensus that these acts were ethnic cleansing. When there is no consensus among scholarship then there is no consensus among scholarship. There's a consensus in the literature that the United States ethnically cleansed Native Americans. There isn't a consensus on the question of genocide. It's very possible for one to be true but not the other.
"In 1869, a new Peace Policy nominally promised to protect Native-Americans from abuses, avoid further war, and secure their eventual U.S. citizenship. Nonetheless, conflicts and state-sanctioned murder, including the California Genocide, continued throughout the West into the 1900s."Neither option was great. Heck, the only part of the statement still in the article is "genocide". Therefore, I can't see it as still WP: PRECEDENT.
The fact that you ignored my request to redact the misleading attribution is noted. I look forward to reading the folks you pinged to see if anyone supports your removal. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
But there's at least 4+ editors now who oppose the SashiRolls [preferred] phrasing as is. (I'll add [preferred]) The context was obviously about how the phrasing that you're in favor of (I didn't say it was yours; I only brought your name up in context due to the fact that ) is different from the RFC version. So citing the (incredible malformed and false dichotomy-induced) RFC that is now half a decade old doesn't have much weight.
Further information: History of the United States (1776–1789), History of the United States (1789–1815), and History of the United States (1815–1849), so logically the section should summarise what those articles say, with due weight. None of them use the word genocide as far as I can see. Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 12:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I checked back here for the first time in a while. It's really nice to see that it's been shortened so much! Good job all. -- Rockstone Send me a message! 05:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
The fact that the US has the strongest military in the world is not mentioned anywhere in the article. Why is this? Man-Man122 ( talk) 21:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Originally, the United States was planned to be called Columbia named after Columbus who landed in North America. And plus, the government officials officially planned to name the United States, Columbia but unfortunately, the South American republic of Columbia already took the name too early so the US had to settle with its current name.
So, should the United States been called Columbia before the South Americans got ahold of the name or no? DarJoOu ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Condensed by a human:
Tom B ( talk) 09:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Factual error. I’d like to adjust it, but the page is protected. Several average sized countries such as Norway, Switzerland and a couple more have higher median income.
Correct: US has a high median income. (Though not the highest.)
Would someone with editing rights please correct. Thanks. 178.238.174.47 ( talk) 17:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that there's been a change in the type of government on the page. Before it was "federal presidential constitutional republic", now "constitutional" was taken out which is a bad edit. The United States's rule of law is the constitution. To say we aren't constitutional anymore is taking away the true meaning behind the form of government. It's fundamental to our rule of law. I'm not sure if it was a mistake or intentional but putting "constitutional" back in is needed. 208.38.225.183 ( talk) 01:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The redirect EE. UU. has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 9 § EE. UU. until a consensus is reached. Utopes ( talk / cont) 21:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Currently it links to https://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=46&page=1508 which is something about the Battle of Kings Mountain? I think this maybe an error Idkjustathing ( talk) 21:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
i could have sworn we were a federal CONSTITUTIONAL republic. sounds mighty strange.... 12.166.63.211 ( talk) 01:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
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Page does not link to United Kingdom when first mentioned Crystallyn0 ( talk) 12:15, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
'''[[
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Frequently asked questions Q1. How did the article get the way it is?
Q2. Why is the article's name "United States" and not "United States of America"?
Isn't United States of America the official name of the U.S.? I would think that
United States should redirect to
United States of America, not vice versa as is the current case.
Q3. Is the United States really the oldest constitutional republic in the world?
1. Isn't
San Marino older?
2. How about Switzerland?
Many people in the United States are told it is the oldest republic and has the oldest constitution, however one must use a narrow definition of constitution. Within Wikipedia articles it may be appropriate to add a modifier such as "oldest continuous, federal ..." however it is more useful to explain the strength and influence of the US constitution and political system both domestically and globally. One must also be careful using the word "democratic" due to the limited franchise in early US history and better explain the pioneering expansion of the democractic system and subsequent influence.
Q4. Why are the Speaker of the House and Chief Justice listed as leaders in the infobox? Shouldn't it just be the President and Vice President?
The President, Vice President, Speaker of The House of Representatives, and Chief Justice are stated within the United States Constitution as leaders of their respective branches of government. As the three branches of government are equal, all four leaders get mentioned under the "Government" heading in the infobox. Q5. What is the motto of the United States?
There was no de jure motto of the United States until 1956, when "In God We Trust" was made such. Various other unofficial mottos existed before that, most notably "E Pluribus Unum". The debate continues on what "E Pluribus Unum"'s current status is (de facto motto, traditional motto, etc.) but it has been determined that it never was an official motto of the United States. Q6. Is the U.S. really the world's largest economy?
The United States was the world's largest national economy from
about 1880 and largest by nominal GDP from about 2014, when it surpassed the
European Union. China has been
larger by Purchasing Power Parity,
since about 2016. Q7. Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as "America" or its people as "American"?
In English, America (when not preceded by "North", "Central", or "South") almost always refers to the United States. The large super-continent is called the Americas. Q8. Why isn't the treatment of
Native Americans given more weight?
The article is written in
summary style and the
sections "Indigenous peoples" and "European colonization" summarize the situation. |
The
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In the disambiguation page for America [1], it is specified that "America is a short-form name for the United States of America". However, the United States aren't known officially as the "United States of America", instead they are just the "United States". The name of the article is United States, and not United States of America. The nation is called "United States" and "of America" is only an unofficial addition to distinguish with other nations that go by United States. This is useless nowadays, considering that when "United States" is mentioned it is always referring to the one in America, unless said otherwise. Furthermore, America is a common name for much more than just the US, and nowadays it is much more common to see "America" being used to refer to the continent rather than the nation. 2804:14D:5C50:889E:6913:F93D:EA87:874C ( talk) 01:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
A series examining the country's vast environmental inequalities and how climate change will make things worse(emphasis added). When English-language reliable sources use America, it almost always is used to refer to the United States. - Aoidh ( talk) 01:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
There's recently been a massive, radical restructuring of articles surrounding relations between the indigenous peoples of the Americas and the United States. Generally in the form of calling events that were previously predominately labeled as "ethnic cleansing", "mass atrocities", and "forced population transfers" and referring to the events as "genocidal" instead. This is despite the fact that this viewpoint is a small minority among historians, political scientists, and anthropologists.
The titles for these articles in of themselves are problematic:
According to Jeffrey Ostler — who holds perhaps one of the most "negative maximalist" viewpoints of American actions among mainstream scholars — this is a small minority viewpoint among those working in the field:
This is not because there is a consensus behind the “pro-genocide” position. In fact, although few scholars in the fields of American Indian and western U.S. history have systematically addressed the question of genocide, for many, perhaps most, scholars in these fields, an overarching indictment of genocide seems too extreme. Some might label specific events and cases, such as the Sand Creek massacre of 1864 or widespread settler violence against Indians during the California Gold Rush, as genocidal, but they would not see U.S. policies and settler actions as consistently so. Others would resist arguments for even limited genocide in U.S. history, citing definitions of genocide that would appear to require a federal government policy to physically destroy all (or most) Indians and observing that federal policies were intended to prevent physical disappearance by promoting assimilation. Some scholars would propose ethnic cleansing as an appropriate alternative to genocide. Others might consider assimilation to be a form of cultural genocide but would insist on a strong distinction between this policy and physical elimination.
and:
Since 1992, the argument for a total, relentless, and pervasive genocide in the Americas has become accepted in some areas of Indigenous studies and genocide studies. For the most part, however, this argument has had little impact on mainstream scholarship in U.S. history or American Indian history. Scholars are more inclined than they once were to gesture to particular actions, events, impulses, and effects as genocidal, but genocide has not become a key concept in scholarship in these fields.
Note that I support keeping the contents for the article but renaming the page.
The California genocide article is also problematic. It has been changed from:
Other articles such as:
Have similarly been rewritten to imply that this is an overwhelming consensus. Tagging @ ShirtNShoesPls:, @ Mason.Jones:, @ Moxy:, @ FMSky:, @ Rambling Rambler:, and @ Rockstone35:.
Many editors seem to be classifying all ethnic cleansing/population transfers, atrocities, et al. as inherently genocidal, which isn't accepted by a majority of scholars.
This is probably a discussion that needs to be had. Since I can't imagine that any version of these pages aren't going to generate controversy. KlayCax ( talk) 02:24, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Indeed it was more than five years ago that an RfC on the California genocide determined language that should be used in that section. Oddly, the words California genocide do not appear in the article despite that consensus, and all the sources have been deleted from the article. Can someone point to a more recent RfC consensus or should we reinstate the language and sources decided upon in September 2018? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 18:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
As it turns out, it was @ KlayCax: on 1 October 2023 who removed the reference to the California Genocide which had been in the article since the 2018 RfC with no edit summary. No consensus was sought on the talk page for this change. (Looking back, I see that I started this discussion which did not yield a consensus to overturn the previous RfC.) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 19:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Genocide is one of the more serious labels, so the sourcing had better be impeccable and unanimous before applying it in wikivoice. It is a powerfully condemnatory word, and thus represents a major prize for anyone who can successfully brand their opponents with it.. There's no consensus (and it's a minority viewpoint) that the events in California were genocide. (See Ostler, 2015; Magliari, 2023) Thus, Wikipedia shouldn't state so in Wikivoice. Consensus can also change. I'll start a RFC if necessary, but words such as genocide should be avoided unless there's a historical consensus. Adding it into the article otherwise presents significant WP: NPOV concerns. KlayCax ( talk) 23:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
In the often contentious and acrimonious debates over whether the Golden State’s Indigenous peoples were targeted for genocide by white Euro-Americans between 1846 and 1873. That's why it shouldn't be in the article. The WP: ONUS would be on including this.
You say that consensus can change. However, no consensus has developed for your deletion of this content in the months that you've been deleting it. I noticed in the
California genocide article that Magliari's view is not what you would have us believe. These are the final words of his review of the Yale University source you deleted: Madley’s case for genocide is overwhelming and compelling in many specific instances. As his evidence makes plain, deliberately exterminatory campaigns devastated at least eighteen California tribes, including the Achumawi, Karuk, Lassik, Nisenan, Nongatl, Owens Valley Paiute, Pomo, Shasta, Sinkyone, Tolowa, Wailaki, Wappo, Whilkut, Wintu, Wiyot, Yana, Yuki, and Yurok. Beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt (and by the standards of any reasonable definition), genocide did in fact play a significant role in the US conquest and subjugation of Native California.
(source accessible
here via Wikipedia Library (Duke))
I'm not sure why you're so adamant about overturning this prior consensus when the scholar you are citing quite clearly disagrees with you. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
It is interesting to note that @ KlayCax: has removed about 5K of sourced material from another entry based on an alleged consensus that seems rather opposed to what I'm reading above. ( diff) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 15:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[Holocaust is] the planned physical annihilation, for ideological or pseudo-religious reasons, of all the members of a national, ethnic, or racial group.Anything else is highly subjective and prone to inconsistency.
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574 Native American tribes are recognized in the United States. Add this information to the demographics section
Source: https://www.usa.gov/indian-tribes-alaska-native 193.187.88.197 ( talk) 22:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
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169 Native American languages are spoken in the United States. Add this information to languages section.
Source: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2011/acs/acsbr10-10.pdf 193.187.88.197 ( talk) 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Prominent historians have rebutted the idea that the California Indian Wars constituted genocide.
Benjamin Madley, for his part, has been almost single-handedly responsible for re-branding the conflicts previously known as the “California Indian Wars” as the California Genocide. It is worth remembering that these are conflicts that just over 20 years ago, the authors of the Cambridge History of the Native Peoples of the Americas saw fit to detail without a single reference to the term “genocide.” Madley himself resorts to describing this as a genocide “hidden in plain sight”—i.e. a “genocide” that generations of historians before him had simply failed to notice. With a relentless focus on violent killing, and a reluctance to contextualize the big picture for the purpose of exaggerating an impression of unending massacre, Madley’s account has convinced many a reader that American officials in California were responsible for something in the neighbourhood of 150,000 violent deaths—a number which is likely 10x higher than the true death toll (including war casualties). For example, Madley’s text prompted a professor at UC Hastings named John Briscoe to write an op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle asserting that: “After 1834… when the native population plummeted from 150,000 to 18,000… Indian hunting was sport for the mostly white gold-seekers and settlers. Indian-hunting raids nearly annihilated the population.” In reality, Madley’s own figures show that “Indian-hunting raids” likely claimed something less than 5% of the 132,000 casualties that Hastings implies in his widely quoted op-ed. Many of the other “missing” Indians might never have existed (i.e. they might be the result of exaggerated population estimates, on which more below). In addition, large numbers will have emigrated to Mexico when the missions were disbanded or when the territory was handed over to the United States, and still others will have assimilated into the US population in various ways. One thing is certain: the nature of our sources requires a caution that the sensationalists singularly lack.
May someone note this on the page? HickTheStick ( talk) 12:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm going to have to get this out of the way, aren't I? The tragic, cruel oppression of the American Indian was truly despicable, and the atrocities committed by European colonizers sicken anyone with a conscience. No sane person does or should deny this.
The article completely ignores the fact that 90% of American Indians were accidentally wiped out by the completely unintentional introduction of Old World diseases. When the European colonizers first landed, they had no way of knowing how diseases spread. They thought it was caused by the "evil eye" or "the Devil." (Epidemiology as a science doesn't come about until the 1830s or 1840s.) Sneezing on somebody or their crops 300+ years before anyone knew that causes bad things does not make someone the equivalent of Hitler. Furthermore, the UN definition of genocide says that there has to be a deliberate policy of extermination (e.g. the Holocaust as perpetrated by Nazi Germany.) California was arguably a genocide because there was a deliberate policy of extermination and said policy was enacted with that goal in mind. The rest of the country? Nope. There has never been any federal policy ordering or implying the desirability of the extermination of the Indians. No order from President Grant or General Sherman/General Sheridan, no Act of Congress, nothing. No evidence is offered by this article to the contrary.
The recent added sentences on "genocide" needs to be deleted because of this issue. I'd make a footnote called: "Debate over Terminology," something to that effect. I'd also include legitimate sources (NOT Michael Medved or the repulsive Stefan Molyneux) that dispute whether or not the term "genocide" is applicable.
Scholars generally see American actions as failing to meet the criteria for genocide (in the vast majority of circumstances). That's just the case. It's also interesting that the citation used to claim it never uses the word "genocide". InvaderMichael ( talk) 18:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
For the most part, however, this argument has had little impact on mainstream scholarship in U.S. history or American Indian history. Scholars are more inclined than they once were to gesture to particular actions, events, impulses, and effects as genocidal, but genocide has not become a key concept in scholarship in these fields. The only plausible case of this, as he mentioned above, to me is California. As their first governor Peter Hardeman Burnett's stated:
That a war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct, must be expected.
Scholars generally agree that the Trail of Tears was not genocide but instead ethnic cleansing: “rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”. The Pulitzer Prize–winning book What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815–1848 also states that "ethnic cleansing" rather than "genocide" is an accurate description for the California Indian Wars/Genocide and Trial of Tears. We don't (and shouldn't) label the Holodomor and similar events as genocide in Wikivoice for the same reason as @ Barnards.tar.gz: mentioned above.
The Pulitzer Prize–winning book What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815–1848 also states that "ethnic cleansing" rather than "genocide" is an accurate description for the California Indian Wars/Genocide and Trial of Tears.This is false, at least as far as the text of the book goes. In the book, it is true that one finds the sentence Today Americans deplore the expropriation and expulsion of racial minorities, a practice now called "ethnic cleansing". ( source) At no point does the author indicate that the white supremacy he talks about repeatedly never added up to genocide as KlayCax suggests. He simply doesn't use the term, as he is not talking about deaths, but about displacements and property rights /white speculation on expropriated Indian territory. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 20:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Scholars generally agree that the Trail of Tears was not genocide but instead ethnic cleansing: “rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”. Ostler comments are brought up below so don't want to fork the conversation. KlayCax ( talk) 20:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The most bloody conflicts, however, derived from the domination and exploitation of the North American continent by the white people of the United States and their government. If a primary driving force can be identified in American history for this period, this was it.( source) I will note with some dismay that this is at least the third time that I've read sources you've given that do not say what you say they do (on several different articles).-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The most bloody conflicts, however, derived from the domination and exploitation of the North American continent by the white people of the United States and their government. If a primary driving force can be identified in American history for this period, this was it.Even people who characterize the events as ethnic cleansing affirm this.
I will note with some dismay that this is at least the third time that I've read sources you've given that do not say what you say they doIt says exactly what I stated. He characterizes the Trail of Tears and (at least until 1848) American-Indian contact in California as a form of ethnic cleansing. (Never mentioning genocide at all in his book.) I suppose you could argue that he may implicitly see it as both genocide and ethnic cleansing. But it would be remarkably strange (to the point of absurdity) for him to just leave it out of the book entirely if he believed that.
it is not a small viewpoint among historians, scholars, academia and reliable authorship... quoting one source that states that as the ultimate authority on the matter. Outside of California, it certainly is, and multiple sources state this. No one here is denying the utter destruction that American actions had on native populations. It's just that the vast majority of this is classified as "ethnic cleansing" or "settler colonialism" rather than genocide.
Why are you so dead set on stating it as a minority viewpointBecause the previous version of the article implied that it was a consensus viewpoint of historians. I'm okay with ethnic cleansing, settler colonialism, and forced displacement, that's pretty uncontroversial with many mainstream historian, but outside of California "genocide" is a small minority viewpoint in the literature. KlayCax ( talk) 20:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
"no consensus exists"then we shouldn't include it in Wikivoice within article. We've already renamed the Uyghur genocide → Persecution of Uyghurs in China.
The term genocide is currently being used a lot for colonial history and even for current events including Xinjiang, Ukraine, and Gaza. There should be a guideline, because there are a lot of issues when using the term. TFD ( talk) 19:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
"no consensus"on how Indian removal policies are classified then we shouldn't say so in Wikivoice. KlayCax ( talk) 14:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
In 1869, a new Peace Policy nominally promised to protect Native-Americans from abuses, avoid further war, and secure their eventual U.S. citizenship. Nonetheless, conflicts and state-sanctioned murder, including the California Genocide, continued throughout the West into the 1900s.Neither is great.
This is a highly contentious topicIf it is, as you said, a highly contentious topic, then why should the claim remain in Wikivoice? I'll note that the wording was recently readded by SashiRolls around a month ago.
But specialists have [generally] not argued that the policy is genocidal.and that
Interestingly, however, most recent scholarship on Indian removal, while supporting the view that the policy was vicious and inhuman, has not addressed the question of genocide. The problem with citing only one historian is that so much has been written about the history of the United States that you can selectively pick books and quotations from reputable historians to bolster any narrative that you want. (From the "god-like American Founding Fathers" to "the genocidal, settler-colonialist, enslavers on lands now known as the United States".)
Please redact my username from this statement, @ KlayCax:. As you are very well aware, the long-standing "phrasing" that you deleted on 1 October 2023 long predates my first contribution to this article on 18 February 2023, at which time the exact phrasing I recently restored had been in the article for four years, when someone slightly modified the original wording from Sept 2018 added after the RfC. Trying to personalize the discussion diverts attention from the fact that it was *you* who deleted long-standing content and supporting references on 1 October 2023. Moreover, the phrasing you deleted on 3 April 2024 is not "my" phrasing either, as the 2019 formulation was modified by somebody else on 25 February 2024, the day after I had restored it. Distorting my role leads me to want to chew on the WP:BAIT 🐟 , but upon reflection I think I'll just post the diffs...
Also, feel free to ping the four editors you claim oppose the content that was in the article from Sept 2018 – October 2023 and from 24 Feb 2024 – 3 April 2024. Additionally, I'm not sure why you're talking about Indian removal in general and about the Trail of Tears when the content you are allegedly disputing refers to neither. This is becoming, as others have said, a timesink.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
If there is no consensus that these acts were genocidal then there is no consensus that these acts were ethnic cleansing. When there is no consensus among scholarship then there is no consensus among scholarship. There's a consensus in the literature that the United States ethnically cleansed Native Americans. There isn't a consensus on the question of genocide. It's very possible for one to be true but not the other.
"In 1869, a new Peace Policy nominally promised to protect Native-Americans from abuses, avoid further war, and secure their eventual U.S. citizenship. Nonetheless, conflicts and state-sanctioned murder, including the California Genocide, continued throughout the West into the 1900s."Neither option was great. Heck, the only part of the statement still in the article is "genocide". Therefore, I can't see it as still WP: PRECEDENT.
The fact that you ignored my request to redact the misleading attribution is noted. I look forward to reading the folks you pinged to see if anyone supports your removal. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
But there's at least 4+ editors now who oppose the SashiRolls [preferred] phrasing as is. (I'll add [preferred]) The context was obviously about how the phrasing that you're in favor of (I didn't say it was yours; I only brought your name up in context due to the fact that ) is different from the RFC version. So citing the (incredible malformed and false dichotomy-induced) RFC that is now half a decade old doesn't have much weight.
Further information: History of the United States (1776–1789), History of the United States (1789–1815), and History of the United States (1815–1849), so logically the section should summarise what those articles say, with due weight. None of them use the word genocide as far as I can see. Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 12:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I checked back here for the first time in a while. It's really nice to see that it's been shortened so much! Good job all. -- Rockstone Send me a message! 05:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
The fact that the US has the strongest military in the world is not mentioned anywhere in the article. Why is this? Man-Man122 ( talk) 21:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Originally, the United States was planned to be called Columbia named after Columbus who landed in North America. And plus, the government officials officially planned to name the United States, Columbia but unfortunately, the South American republic of Columbia already took the name too early so the US had to settle with its current name.
So, should the United States been called Columbia before the South Americans got ahold of the name or no? DarJoOu ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Condensed by a human:
Tom B ( talk) 09:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Factual error. I’d like to adjust it, but the page is protected. Several average sized countries such as Norway, Switzerland and a couple more have higher median income.
Correct: US has a high median income. (Though not the highest.)
Would someone with editing rights please correct. Thanks. 178.238.174.47 ( talk) 17:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that there's been a change in the type of government on the page. Before it was "federal presidential constitutional republic", now "constitutional" was taken out which is a bad edit. The United States's rule of law is the constitution. To say we aren't constitutional anymore is taking away the true meaning behind the form of government. It's fundamental to our rule of law. I'm not sure if it was a mistake or intentional but putting "constitutional" back in is needed. 208.38.225.183 ( talk) 01:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The redirect EE. UU. has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 9 § EE. UU. until a consensus is reached. Utopes ( talk / cont) 21:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Currently it links to https://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=46&page=1508 which is something about the Battle of Kings Mountain? I think this maybe an error Idkjustathing ( talk) 21:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
i could have sworn we were a federal CONSTITUTIONAL republic. sounds mighty strange.... 12.166.63.211 ( talk) 01:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
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Page does not link to United Kingdom when first mentioned Crystallyn0 ( talk) 12:15, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
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