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This is a translation of the Dutch wiki site, with references and all. Will be a work in progress, but the Dutch version is very nicely written. Any help is requested-- Daveblack ( talk) 15:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is about the shift from one language to another —not about the (still ongoing) process of replacing dialects by standard languages. If one thinks like that, this entire article is pointless, since that happened everywhere in Europe during the past century. The language of Brussels was Dutch, of course in its older form, and in spoken language, the Brabantian dialect, but Dutch was used in the local administration, literature, etc, it was the local cultural language till French took over this role. Therefore, mentioning the fact that local people spoke their own dialect only makes the introduction more complicated since this in se had nothing to do with the shift to French, and thus it is not an oversimplification. Not the fact that people spoke there own dialects made them switch to French, it's the fact that every connection with the Dutch standard language was (also actively) taken away. Linking this to Flemish nationalism, is totally ridiculous. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please use a username to edit articles. You should know that the results of those censuses were always doubted by Flemings: thus now using it as to prove that French overtook Dutch (or Brabantian, Flemish, Low Country Chinese, or whatever) already in 1910 is irrelevant. You are dragging less relevant things into the first (!) sentence of an article, that creates bias, not the other way around. You might just as well say that nobody spoke Dutch in Belgium nor the Netherlands than since the 60s, which is clearly totally incorrect. This is not only about daily speech, it's about the shift from one language to the other, in every aspect of life. That's why mentioning that 'only' the dialect was spoken, is both not true and gives a too narrow interpretation to the francization. --
Hooiwind (
talk)
22:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Answer:
a- I created an account. Happy now?
b- Concerning the language spoken by the majority of the inhabitants of Brussels before the 19th century, it was a mix of Southern Brabantian dialects, I think everybody agree with that, including you. Nobody is trying to hide the fact that these South Brabantian dialects were highly related to Dutch, in fact the sentence that you keep reverting specifically says "the majority of people spoke local Brabantian dialects OF THE DUTCH LANGUAGE". Can't be more clear than that.
c- This insistance to write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is wrong for two reasons. First it is inaccurate. People did not speak standard Dutch, they spoke dialects that were related to standard Dutch but distinct from it. In fact people from Amsterdam would have had trouble understanding people from Brussels speaking in their local dialect. To write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is as inaccurate as writing that people in Strasbourg spoke German when in fact they spoke Alsatian, a regional language related to but quite distinct from standard German. Of course the written language of the Brabantian speakers of Brussels was standard Dutch (or sometimes a mix of Brabantian and standard Dutch), but don't forget that a lot of people didn't know how to write and read, and anyway what this article discusses is the language people spoke (orally). Second, this insistance to write that the language of Brussels was Dutch is politically controversial. I hope you do realize this is exactly the propaganda of the Flemish extremist parties such as the
Vlaams Blok who wish to portray Brussels as a "Flemish" and "Dutch"-speaking city (when in fact it was a Brabantian city, not a Flemish city, and people spoke Brabantian, not standard Dutch), this in order to "reconquer" Brussels, which is the avowed goal of the Vlaams Blok.
d- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need to be accurate and precise, and not oversimply things, especially when this oversimplification is politically controversial. Juste imagine if a German extremist decided to change the Strasbourg article and write that Strasbourg was a city whose language was originally German that was later Francized (is that even a word in English by the way?), when in fact people in Strasbourg never spoke standard German (only a small minority did so), they spoke Alsatian (and used standard German only as a written language) and then they gradually switched to French. The current wording is both precise ("Brabatian dialects") and does not hide the strong relationship between Brabantian and standard Dutch ("of the Dutch language"), so please let's leave it at that. Unless of course you have ulterior motives of a political nature, but I hope that's not the case.
e- Concerning the 1910 census in Brussels, your personal opinion is that its results are doubtful. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but from what I understand articles on Wikipedia cannot be based on personal opinion. Articles must be based on established facts supported by sources. Unless you have a source that specifically says that the results of the 1910 census in Brussels cannot be trusted, please kindly stop removing these census figures. I hope this clarifies all points.
Bruxelloise (
talk)
01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The source provided by Roofbird refers to the linguistic censuses held in the periphery of Brussels in 1930 and particularly 1947, i.e. after the linguistic border came into existence and municipalities could switch side if there was a change of the majority language in the municipality. The 1947 census was particularly denounced by Flemings as a fraud in many municipalities. On the other hand, the 1910 census in Brussels was uncontroversial since there existed no linguistic border at the time and no rule that a municipality switch sides if the majority language changed. So I see no reason to consider that this census is wrong, especially given that no one so far has been able to bring a source proving that this 1910 census was of poor quality. As for the word "overtaken", I have replaced it with the exact words from the census question: "language spoken exclusively or most frequently". Godefroy ( talk) 14:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Roofbird. The 1910 census only proves that French infiltrated into the Flemish community, and that only after 1910 bilinguals dropped Dutch and became monolingual French-speakers. The number of bilingual people remained stable between 1890 and 1947, showing an influx from the category NL to NL+FR and a simultaneous outflow to FR. Interpreting this as Bruxelloise does in the article about Belgium: Until the end of the 19th century the majority of its inhabitants spoke local Brabantian dialects of the Dutch language. However a large-scale francization of Brussels started in the 19th century. As a result, by the 1910 census, the French language had overtaken the local Brabantian dialects in what is now the Capital Region. This has a rather POV and inaccurate undertone.
From one of the numerous studies of the VUB on this topic:
[3]
p391: Tot omstreeks 1880 bleven de taalverhoudingen desalniettemin vrij stabiel: ongeveer een derde Vlamingen, een derde tweetaligen en een vijfde à een kwart Franstaligen.
p392: Verruimde onderwijsvoorzieningen voor de arbeidersklasse verspreidden het burgerlijke cultuurpatroon via het Frans in brede lagen van de arbeidersklasse. Dat zo de culturele band met het linguïstisch en sociaal milieu verslapte, bewijzen de talentellingen eveneens: vanaf 1880 verminderde de impact van de Nederlands-ééntaligen ten voordele van de tweetaligengroep om vanaf 1910 de Frans-ééntaligen te versterken.
Note also that in all those studies, people are said to speak Dutch. A more accurate and NPOV wording would be: "Since 1880 more and more Dutch-speaking people became bilingual, resulting in a rise of monolingual French-speakers after 1910.", or something of the like. However, I indeed put it wrong before: it's not really the census itself which is truqué, although it is also said in all those studies of the VUB, that the definition of "bilingualism" changed numerous times and is as such a very subjective matter, urging for reluctance to use it as evidence rather than an indication. It's more the interpretation of the numbers, namely the version of Bruxelloise, which is wrong. --
Hooiwind (
talk)
11:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, I think far more important than bickering over comparatively small details like this is actually getting the article translated. The talk page is now more than twice as long as the article itself, which is, quite frankly, absurd. Could those who speak Dutch please direct their efforts instead towards further translation? Thanks, Oreo Priest 13:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
What language was spoken in the region before 10th century? Was it a Germanic, Celtic or Romance language? Why did the region change language then? Aaker ( talk) 21:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
As I have been instrumental in putting the results of the linguistic censuses on Wikipedia (Dutch and French version), I invite everybody able to read and understand Dutch to read the article "Talentelling" on the Dutch Wikipedia, where you will find at least some proven facts about the questionnable results of the census of 1930 and the attitude of the French speaking administration in Brussels with regard to the 1920 census. Boerkevitz ( talk) 14:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Under WP:ENGVAR, European articles do not have to be in UK English. You'll notice it says EU Institutions and not all European related articles, for which the general rule applies. In the Francization of Brussels' case, the translator is American, so we stick with that. Cheers. - Oreo Priest talk 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A bit late, I suppose, but to me 'Frenchification' is a horrible word. 'Francisation' (or 'Francization') is much more attractive and seems to me more neutral. Whether it's the way people use it, or the sound, or what, 'Frenchification' always sounds a little derogatory to me. 41.241.94.11 ( talk) 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
To use the word "Dutch" in an article about Brussels is a dangerous oversimplification, There were various regional languages in the Low Countries in the Middle Ages. at least four in what is today the Netherlands and three in the "Flemish" part of today's Belgium,West Flemish, East Flemish and "Diets" (itself divided in Brabantian and Limburgish). There is a profound difference in the sentence structure between these groups: Flemish uses the germanic sentence structure whilst diets uses the romance one. Before 1950, when the "Taal unie" treaty between Belgium and the Netherlands was signed, it was customary to speak of Flemish and Hollandish (Hollandsch). I don't really know who of Leonard De Bo or Guido Gezelle, two famous West Flemish writers, defined "Hollansch" as a half pagan, half jewish language (shows how popular it was in Western Flanders...). So, I would suggest using "Flemish" instead of "Dutch". though it is not historically nor linguistically accurate since Brabantian diets was the language spoken.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.230.129 ( talk) 20:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Leaving aside that "francisation" is not a word, the title of this article is misleading. An "-isation" process is done by someone, so who francised Brussels?
There is no person/group who francised Brussels. Brussels changed over time. One possible title would be "History of language usage in Brussels", or "The transition of Brussels from Dutch speaking to French speaking". Suggestions sought. -- Gronky ( talk) 11:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Whatever happens to the title of this article, I want to record here that as of today (May 30th 2008) there is only 1 google hit for "Francisation of Brussels" if you exclude "wikipedia" (which is done by adding "-wikipedia" to the search. That one hit is a mirror site of wikipedia.
For the same search, but spelling it "francization", you get 9 hits.
So it cannot be accurate for the article to say, as it does now, that the change of language over time in Brussels is "called the "Francization of Brussels,"". Quite simply, according to Google, no one has used that term, ever, online before this article appeared on wikipedia. At best, we can say that what happened "could be called...". I'll make that change, although I think this is still giving too much prominence to this neologism. -- Gronky ( talk) 13:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, if anyone can help, I just translated a section and added to the end, but by doing so, the references and infoboxes were erased!! Does anyone have a solution for this? I commented out the section, so the text is still there in the source code. thanks - -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I can't understand why it was changed. Actually I think francisation is better than frenchification since there's an article about the phenomenon with that name. Aaker ( talk) 23:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Having been previously lambasted by one or more of the editors involved with this article, let me be clear. The intention of my edits is to improve the article. Period.-- Buster7 ( talk) 06:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know what "région à part entière" means? I don't speak French. -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Also in this context: "bevoegdheden" (singular bevoegdheid, compétences in French) does not mean "opportunity"; it's a political term. I have no idea how to say it in English (I would say competencies but that might be a gallicism). Let me give you an example. In Belgium, the Regions are "competent" for regional matters such as roads, air pollution, transport services; the Communities are "competent" for education, health care, the media; the federal state is "competent" for jurisdiction, electricity, foreign affairs. "Responsibilities" is what it means but I think it fails to capture the political and constitutional aspect. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 16:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
This sentence was not clear to me, and as far as I can tell, the Dutch was also ambiguous: At first, Flemish political parties demanded cultural competencies, whereas francophone parties wanted economic autonomy. Cultural competencies. for who over what? Did the Flemish parties want Flanders to have cultural power over Brussels? For Brussels to have them itself? That sort of thing. - Oreo Priest talk 03:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I didn't quite understand what this meant in the context of the sentence it was in: (à l'exception du Ministre-Président et des secrétaires d'État). Help? - Oreo Priest talk 04:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Can you explain this? In het arrondissement Halle-Vilvoorde, dat naast de zes faciliteitengemeenten ook nog 29 andere Vlaamse gemeenten omvat, gebruikte in 2006 ongeveer 31 percent van de gezinnen het Frans als communicatietaal met Kind en Gezin.[86] For one, I'm not sure what Kind en Gezin means, and what the French put doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, I looked at the source and I can't see how you got 31%. From what I understand 41% not-NL minus 25% not FR or NL is 16% FR. Am I missing something? - Oreo Priest talk 01:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to think how to translate this. Any ideas? Peeters Policy? Peeters directive? Peeters circulaire? - Oreo Priest talk 02:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
The last section of French Dissatisfaction is somewhat of a mess, since I don't completely understand what "loketten" are. Could an expert please take a look at this and smooth it out?
thanks -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
(undent) I also thought about booth, but that could be interpreted as something that distributes pamphlets or something. - Oreo Priest talk 22:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The article reads "... a significant number of seats were reserved for Dutch-speakers; the criterium for occupying such a seat was the possession of an identity card in Dutch. A number of French-speakers requested this card, and as such were added as "Dutch-speakers" by Rassemblement Bruxellois." I think that, while factual, it is a bit ambiguous as to motive. Was the requesting of a card some form of deception? Did it effect the voting process? Did it prevent an accurate representation of the actual social components? I think we need to make it clear for the reader. I know a little bit about it and it confuses me. Just a thought! Buster7 ( talk) 23:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
So I think I'll start helping to translate this too. Given that I don't speak Dutch, I'm working from the French version, which is now a featured article as well. At any rate, if you guys could keep your eyes open for any issues; be they broken telephone from the double translation, poor translation, bias from the French version or whatever, that'd be great. Also, I might leave some words in Canadian English by accident; I do think, however, that since Daveblack started this in AmEng, that's the way it should stay. - Oreo Priest talk 18:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The computer does not like my references for numbers 75 and 76 found in the "Foreign Immigration" section. I am admittedly no good at references. Anyone care to help out? Thanks -- Daveblack ( talk) 14:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a cordial disagreement about whether the article is too long, and if so, by how much, and how it should be shortened. If subarticles are to be created, what would be the best way to do that? - Oreo Priest talk 17:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
[Copied from peer review, where this discussion started]
[end of copy from peer review]
I start a new review of this article. Vb ( talk) 21:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Work in progress... Vb ( talk) 21:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps rather than frenchification or francisation, gallicisation could be used? It's attractive, neutral and has a long history in the English language 41.241.31.22 ( talk) 22:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This "Frenchification of Brussels" article reflects solely the point of view of the flemings (The topic itself and the problematic way it is presented). Though the references at the end of the article comprises some french contributions, the content, the figures, the way they are analyzed express only the point of view of flemish associations or organizations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guy ( talk) 19:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The fact that most of the intervention come from Oreo Priest who makes notes about the NVA which is the main nationalist party in Belgian has a feeling this article is really biaised and oriented. It is a shame that such a good instrument as wikipedia is used to spread nationalist motives. Krakkobe ( talk) 15:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
For me it doesn't matter what you claim as it is not possible to check nationality or all the informations you put and actually it is not that important. What I can see is that you make so many contributions about Belgium and specially about some very specific things like the government or the communauty of Flanders that is seems pretty obvious that you must demonstrate a very good knowledge of Dutch and French to translate such informations. If you don't I would find very harmful that you relay the first article in Dutch because of the oriented references. Anyway you don't convince me with your arguments of impartiality and it would be a good thing to add a banner for partial neutrality. Good day Krakkobe ( talk) 07:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I may be aggressive but that is a from a fair point of view because this article is more of a demonstration that Brussels is a flemish city that has been spoiled from its language than what is is really : a city that long has been in the cultural area of latin and germanic influences. Even in your references such as "Helder De Schutter; Ann Mares, Els Witte (ed.) (2001). "Taalpolitiek en multiculturalisme in het Brussels Nederlandstalig onderwijs", it is clearly said that the local Brussels dialect was a pure mix of French and Dutch. I give you the definition of immigration "To enter and settle in a country to which one is not native", the paragraph "French-speaking immigration" is insultive because you are not an immigrant in your own country : this is insulting for both the wallons and the flemish people who came to live in Brussels. And finally Oreao Priest erased my remarks about the roman settlement in Schaerbeek though he left strangelly my reference I added in the article as if it personnaly indisposed him that most of the cities in Belgium have also a latin part in them wether it is Brussels, Tongeren or Tournai. What to do next, detroy manually the roman ruins, latin or French antic pergaments to be sure that no one contest the pure germanic origin of Brussels? This is sick. Anyway, this is getting close to a Godwin point and there is no point of making arguments with people who have made their mind already. good day. Krakkobe ( talk) 22:15, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
The edit was made by Hooiwind, he know himself perfectly. The qualification migrant-immigrant is very sensitively used in the Flemish media who stigmatise the french speakers living in the surroundind of Brussels giving them the names of immigrants, thank you for adapting that. Anyway, a fair thing would be that this article represent the Flemish point of view about Brussels as the University of Laval made about the regions in Belgium giving a public tribune from all regions. Krakkobe ( talk) 14:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, the last sentence of the introduction lacks neutrality. First, francization is presented as " cultural imperialism". Is this factual? If so, I think the connection between the two notions must be made explicit. If not factual, this sentence needs to be removed or modified to highlight whose opinion it is. Secondly, "some monolingual French-speaking communities" are said to be "often imbued with a condescending attitude [...] towards Dutch". Again, is this factual? If so, references are needed. The use of the pronoun "some" is vague and needs to be replaced by a quantity. If not factual, this sentence needs to be removed or modified. Thedarkfly ( talk) 09:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC) Given the lack of reaction, I will tag the sentences I find problematic. Thedarkfly ( talk) 10:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
I find the current article confusing because it doesn't make clear what kind of bilingualism is involved in the language shift, whether the linguistic competence of individuals or the use of different languages in the community by speakers who may in fact be substantially (or increasingly) monolingual. For example, the statement in the introduction "from a Dutch-speaking city to one that is bilingual or even multilingual," doesn't fit my understanding of the changing language situation. My impression was that in the late 19th century, most Brussels residents were native-speakers of Dutch but were educated exclusively in French. So it seems that at that time individual bilingualism was very high, and there was de facto community bilingualism even if Dutch was excluded from certain domains like government and education (and thus the form of Dutch would be mostly spoken Brabantian, rather than standard Dutch with a standard written form). Since then, it seems there has been a language-shift among majority of residents (many with Flemish-speaking grandparents) so that many are now native speakers of French, also educated in French, and many (most?) never learn Dutch as a second language. The Dutch-to-Francophone segment of the Brussels population is culturally integrated with other Francophone segments such as migrants from Wallonia, immigrant communities who almost all are or become Francophone, and EU employees and their families. As a result, Brussels is now 85% Francophone, and most of the Francophones do not speak or read Dutch. So the trend in individual bilingualism seems to be the opposite of what was stated. From widespread individual bilingualism (mostly native-speakers of Dutch who were literate in French if they are literate at all), to more limited bilingualism (especially among the 85% of Brussels residents who are Francophones; if they have a second language it is likely to be English, not many are fluent or literate in Dutch). In terms of community bilingualism, Brussels was bilingual before but Dutch was marginalized in important domains like government and education. Brussels has some kind of community bilingualism today, but perhaps it is more polarized, with the Dutch-speaking 15% minority sending their kids to Dutch-speaking schools where they learn to be individual multilinguals (at least French and English as second languages), while the Francophone majority send their kids to Francophone schools (where their may become individual bilinguals, but I suspect English is learned more than Dutch). If my understanding is correct, a better characterization of the language shift whould be something like: "from a bilingual community where the majority of residents were native-speakers of Dutch, with widespread individual bilingualism (and literacy) in French; to a very different and more polarized bilingual community today, where a much smaller percentage are individual bilinguals. The members of the Francophone majority (85% of residents, of a diverse ethnolinguistic heritage, not majority Walloon) are less likely to have individual bilingualism in French and Dutch today, compared to to the prevalent individual bilingualism in Dutch and French during the late 19th century (when the majority of residents were native-speakers of Dutch). In Brussels today, it is only among native-speakers of Dutch (15% of the population) where Dutch-French bilingualism is widespread." That is too long to squeeze into the introductory paragraph, I would appreciate assistance or suggestions where the clarifications might go, if they are correct. I would also like to ask for assistance in identifying references to support the clarification of the language situation. - Fbkintanar ( talk) 09:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was Move. Cúchullain t/ c 18:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Frenchification of Brussels → Francisation of Brussels – Based purely on the following:
Word | Description (on Dictionary.com) |
---|---|
frenchification | "to make (something or someone) resemble the French, as in manners, customs, or dress: to Frenchify the spelling of one's name." |
francisation | "to make or become French-speaking" |
- SSJ t 22:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I see that the page was recently moved to Francisation of Brussels. Great! However, I disagree with the change from the original spellings to UK/Irish. I spent quite a lot of time translating the original page and it has a very consistent history of using American spelling. Besides, this has already been discussed at topic number 6 on this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Francisation_of_Brussels#WP:ENGVAR Oreopriest writes: "Under WP:ENGVAR, European articles do not have to be in UK English. You'll notice it says EU Institutions and not all European related articles, for which the general rule applies."
The publication of EU documents (which are published in many languages) does not constitute a "strong tie to a particular English-speaking nation" WP:TIES. This is a far-fetched reason for choosing a spelling. However, the articles DOES have a long history of using American spellings, so it in fact fall under WP:RETAIN.
Should I request another move? Kind regards, -- Daveblack ( talk) 13:55, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I suppose, "The transition began gradually in the 18th century" dates the beginning too late.
My evidences:
The use of French before the second half of the 18th century was marginal and limited to the nobility only (as in Russia and Prussia, indeed). In 1760 the French-speaking minority (or rather, those who preferred French [sic]) was probably between 5-10%, which by 1780 may have risen to 15% (ref. in the Dutch article [51][17][20][4][9]). By 1821 the French minority would have approached 20% (Dutch ref. [17][9]), and would remain stable until the end of the 19th century (Dutch ref [23][2][18][36][2]). After 1880 (Dutch ref. [15][16][17]), due to the increased access to education, knowledge of French amongst the other classes surged. A generation later, after 1910, the French minority would start to grow beyond a quarter of the population (Dutch ref. [23][27]), not to pass the 50% treshold however until during the second half of the 20th century (the last census of 1947, however unreliable, showed a French-only community of 38% - ignoring personal bilingualism). This may contradict the (indeed original) research mentioned above, those inscriptions on the Grand Place are obviously "new original". -- Hooiwind ( talk) 19:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
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This is a translation of the Dutch wiki site, with references and all. Will be a work in progress, but the Dutch version is very nicely written. Any help is requested-- Daveblack ( talk) 15:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is about the shift from one language to another —not about the (still ongoing) process of replacing dialects by standard languages. If one thinks like that, this entire article is pointless, since that happened everywhere in Europe during the past century. The language of Brussels was Dutch, of course in its older form, and in spoken language, the Brabantian dialect, but Dutch was used in the local administration, literature, etc, it was the local cultural language till French took over this role. Therefore, mentioning the fact that local people spoke their own dialect only makes the introduction more complicated since this in se had nothing to do with the shift to French, and thus it is not an oversimplification. Not the fact that people spoke there own dialects made them switch to French, it's the fact that every connection with the Dutch standard language was (also actively) taken away. Linking this to Flemish nationalism, is totally ridiculous. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please use a username to edit articles. You should know that the results of those censuses were always doubted by Flemings: thus now using it as to prove that French overtook Dutch (or Brabantian, Flemish, Low Country Chinese, or whatever) already in 1910 is irrelevant. You are dragging less relevant things into the first (!) sentence of an article, that creates bias, not the other way around. You might just as well say that nobody spoke Dutch in Belgium nor the Netherlands than since the 60s, which is clearly totally incorrect. This is not only about daily speech, it's about the shift from one language to the other, in every aspect of life. That's why mentioning that 'only' the dialect was spoken, is both not true and gives a too narrow interpretation to the francization. --
Hooiwind (
talk)
22:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Answer:
a- I created an account. Happy now?
b- Concerning the language spoken by the majority of the inhabitants of Brussels before the 19th century, it was a mix of Southern Brabantian dialects, I think everybody agree with that, including you. Nobody is trying to hide the fact that these South Brabantian dialects were highly related to Dutch, in fact the sentence that you keep reverting specifically says "the majority of people spoke local Brabantian dialects OF THE DUTCH LANGUAGE". Can't be more clear than that.
c- This insistance to write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is wrong for two reasons. First it is inaccurate. People did not speak standard Dutch, they spoke dialects that were related to standard Dutch but distinct from it. In fact people from Amsterdam would have had trouble understanding people from Brussels speaking in their local dialect. To write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is as inaccurate as writing that people in Strasbourg spoke German when in fact they spoke Alsatian, a regional language related to but quite distinct from standard German. Of course the written language of the Brabantian speakers of Brussels was standard Dutch (or sometimes a mix of Brabantian and standard Dutch), but don't forget that a lot of people didn't know how to write and read, and anyway what this article discusses is the language people spoke (orally). Second, this insistance to write that the language of Brussels was Dutch is politically controversial. I hope you do realize this is exactly the propaganda of the Flemish extremist parties such as the
Vlaams Blok who wish to portray Brussels as a "Flemish" and "Dutch"-speaking city (when in fact it was a Brabantian city, not a Flemish city, and people spoke Brabantian, not standard Dutch), this in order to "reconquer" Brussels, which is the avowed goal of the Vlaams Blok.
d- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need to be accurate and precise, and not oversimply things, especially when this oversimplification is politically controversial. Juste imagine if a German extremist decided to change the Strasbourg article and write that Strasbourg was a city whose language was originally German that was later Francized (is that even a word in English by the way?), when in fact people in Strasbourg never spoke standard German (only a small minority did so), they spoke Alsatian (and used standard German only as a written language) and then they gradually switched to French. The current wording is both precise ("Brabatian dialects") and does not hide the strong relationship between Brabantian and standard Dutch ("of the Dutch language"), so please let's leave it at that. Unless of course you have ulterior motives of a political nature, but I hope that's not the case.
e- Concerning the 1910 census in Brussels, your personal opinion is that its results are doubtful. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but from what I understand articles on Wikipedia cannot be based on personal opinion. Articles must be based on established facts supported by sources. Unless you have a source that specifically says that the results of the 1910 census in Brussels cannot be trusted, please kindly stop removing these census figures. I hope this clarifies all points.
Bruxelloise (
talk)
01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The source provided by Roofbird refers to the linguistic censuses held in the periphery of Brussels in 1930 and particularly 1947, i.e. after the linguistic border came into existence and municipalities could switch side if there was a change of the majority language in the municipality. The 1947 census was particularly denounced by Flemings as a fraud in many municipalities. On the other hand, the 1910 census in Brussels was uncontroversial since there existed no linguistic border at the time and no rule that a municipality switch sides if the majority language changed. So I see no reason to consider that this census is wrong, especially given that no one so far has been able to bring a source proving that this 1910 census was of poor quality. As for the word "overtaken", I have replaced it with the exact words from the census question: "language spoken exclusively or most frequently". Godefroy ( talk) 14:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Roofbird. The 1910 census only proves that French infiltrated into the Flemish community, and that only after 1910 bilinguals dropped Dutch and became monolingual French-speakers. The number of bilingual people remained stable between 1890 and 1947, showing an influx from the category NL to NL+FR and a simultaneous outflow to FR. Interpreting this as Bruxelloise does in the article about Belgium: Until the end of the 19th century the majority of its inhabitants spoke local Brabantian dialects of the Dutch language. However a large-scale francization of Brussels started in the 19th century. As a result, by the 1910 census, the French language had overtaken the local Brabantian dialects in what is now the Capital Region. This has a rather POV and inaccurate undertone.
From one of the numerous studies of the VUB on this topic:
[3]
p391: Tot omstreeks 1880 bleven de taalverhoudingen desalniettemin vrij stabiel: ongeveer een derde Vlamingen, een derde tweetaligen en een vijfde à een kwart Franstaligen.
p392: Verruimde onderwijsvoorzieningen voor de arbeidersklasse verspreidden het burgerlijke cultuurpatroon via het Frans in brede lagen van de arbeidersklasse. Dat zo de culturele band met het linguïstisch en sociaal milieu verslapte, bewijzen de talentellingen eveneens: vanaf 1880 verminderde de impact van de Nederlands-ééntaligen ten voordele van de tweetaligengroep om vanaf 1910 de Frans-ééntaligen te versterken.
Note also that in all those studies, people are said to speak Dutch. A more accurate and NPOV wording would be: "Since 1880 more and more Dutch-speaking people became bilingual, resulting in a rise of monolingual French-speakers after 1910.", or something of the like. However, I indeed put it wrong before: it's not really the census itself which is truqué, although it is also said in all those studies of the VUB, that the definition of "bilingualism" changed numerous times and is as such a very subjective matter, urging for reluctance to use it as evidence rather than an indication. It's more the interpretation of the numbers, namely the version of Bruxelloise, which is wrong. --
Hooiwind (
talk)
11:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, I think far more important than bickering over comparatively small details like this is actually getting the article translated. The talk page is now more than twice as long as the article itself, which is, quite frankly, absurd. Could those who speak Dutch please direct their efforts instead towards further translation? Thanks, Oreo Priest 13:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
What language was spoken in the region before 10th century? Was it a Germanic, Celtic or Romance language? Why did the region change language then? Aaker ( talk) 21:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
As I have been instrumental in putting the results of the linguistic censuses on Wikipedia (Dutch and French version), I invite everybody able to read and understand Dutch to read the article "Talentelling" on the Dutch Wikipedia, where you will find at least some proven facts about the questionnable results of the census of 1930 and the attitude of the French speaking administration in Brussels with regard to the 1920 census. Boerkevitz ( talk) 14:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Under WP:ENGVAR, European articles do not have to be in UK English. You'll notice it says EU Institutions and not all European related articles, for which the general rule applies. In the Francization of Brussels' case, the translator is American, so we stick with that. Cheers. - Oreo Priest talk 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A bit late, I suppose, but to me 'Frenchification' is a horrible word. 'Francisation' (or 'Francization') is much more attractive and seems to me more neutral. Whether it's the way people use it, or the sound, or what, 'Frenchification' always sounds a little derogatory to me. 41.241.94.11 ( talk) 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
To use the word "Dutch" in an article about Brussels is a dangerous oversimplification, There were various regional languages in the Low Countries in the Middle Ages. at least four in what is today the Netherlands and three in the "Flemish" part of today's Belgium,West Flemish, East Flemish and "Diets" (itself divided in Brabantian and Limburgish). There is a profound difference in the sentence structure between these groups: Flemish uses the germanic sentence structure whilst diets uses the romance one. Before 1950, when the "Taal unie" treaty between Belgium and the Netherlands was signed, it was customary to speak of Flemish and Hollandish (Hollandsch). I don't really know who of Leonard De Bo or Guido Gezelle, two famous West Flemish writers, defined "Hollansch" as a half pagan, half jewish language (shows how popular it was in Western Flanders...). So, I would suggest using "Flemish" instead of "Dutch". though it is not historically nor linguistically accurate since Brabantian diets was the language spoken.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.230.129 ( talk) 20:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Leaving aside that "francisation" is not a word, the title of this article is misleading. An "-isation" process is done by someone, so who francised Brussels?
There is no person/group who francised Brussels. Brussels changed over time. One possible title would be "History of language usage in Brussels", or "The transition of Brussels from Dutch speaking to French speaking". Suggestions sought. -- Gronky ( talk) 11:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Whatever happens to the title of this article, I want to record here that as of today (May 30th 2008) there is only 1 google hit for "Francisation of Brussels" if you exclude "wikipedia" (which is done by adding "-wikipedia" to the search. That one hit is a mirror site of wikipedia.
For the same search, but spelling it "francization", you get 9 hits.
So it cannot be accurate for the article to say, as it does now, that the change of language over time in Brussels is "called the "Francization of Brussels,"". Quite simply, according to Google, no one has used that term, ever, online before this article appeared on wikipedia. At best, we can say that what happened "could be called...". I'll make that change, although I think this is still giving too much prominence to this neologism. -- Gronky ( talk) 13:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, if anyone can help, I just translated a section and added to the end, but by doing so, the references and infoboxes were erased!! Does anyone have a solution for this? I commented out the section, so the text is still there in the source code. thanks - -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I can't understand why it was changed. Actually I think francisation is better than frenchification since there's an article about the phenomenon with that name. Aaker ( talk) 23:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Having been previously lambasted by one or more of the editors involved with this article, let me be clear. The intention of my edits is to improve the article. Period.-- Buster7 ( talk) 06:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know what "région à part entière" means? I don't speak French. -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Also in this context: "bevoegdheden" (singular bevoegdheid, compétences in French) does not mean "opportunity"; it's a political term. I have no idea how to say it in English (I would say competencies but that might be a gallicism). Let me give you an example. In Belgium, the Regions are "competent" for regional matters such as roads, air pollution, transport services; the Communities are "competent" for education, health care, the media; the federal state is "competent" for jurisdiction, electricity, foreign affairs. "Responsibilities" is what it means but I think it fails to capture the political and constitutional aspect. -- Hooiwind ( talk) 16:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
This sentence was not clear to me, and as far as I can tell, the Dutch was also ambiguous: At first, Flemish political parties demanded cultural competencies, whereas francophone parties wanted economic autonomy. Cultural competencies. for who over what? Did the Flemish parties want Flanders to have cultural power over Brussels? For Brussels to have them itself? That sort of thing. - Oreo Priest talk 03:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I didn't quite understand what this meant in the context of the sentence it was in: (à l'exception du Ministre-Président et des secrétaires d'État). Help? - Oreo Priest talk 04:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Can you explain this? In het arrondissement Halle-Vilvoorde, dat naast de zes faciliteitengemeenten ook nog 29 andere Vlaamse gemeenten omvat, gebruikte in 2006 ongeveer 31 percent van de gezinnen het Frans als communicatietaal met Kind en Gezin.[86] For one, I'm not sure what Kind en Gezin means, and what the French put doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, I looked at the source and I can't see how you got 31%. From what I understand 41% not-NL minus 25% not FR or NL is 16% FR. Am I missing something? - Oreo Priest talk 01:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to think how to translate this. Any ideas? Peeters Policy? Peeters directive? Peeters circulaire? - Oreo Priest talk 02:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
The last section of French Dissatisfaction is somewhat of a mess, since I don't completely understand what "loketten" are. Could an expert please take a look at this and smooth it out?
thanks -- Daveblack ( talk) 11:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
(undent) I also thought about booth, but that could be interpreted as something that distributes pamphlets or something. - Oreo Priest talk 22:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The article reads "... a significant number of seats were reserved for Dutch-speakers; the criterium for occupying such a seat was the possession of an identity card in Dutch. A number of French-speakers requested this card, and as such were added as "Dutch-speakers" by Rassemblement Bruxellois." I think that, while factual, it is a bit ambiguous as to motive. Was the requesting of a card some form of deception? Did it effect the voting process? Did it prevent an accurate representation of the actual social components? I think we need to make it clear for the reader. I know a little bit about it and it confuses me. Just a thought! Buster7 ( talk) 23:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
So I think I'll start helping to translate this too. Given that I don't speak Dutch, I'm working from the French version, which is now a featured article as well. At any rate, if you guys could keep your eyes open for any issues; be they broken telephone from the double translation, poor translation, bias from the French version or whatever, that'd be great. Also, I might leave some words in Canadian English by accident; I do think, however, that since Daveblack started this in AmEng, that's the way it should stay. - Oreo Priest talk 18:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The computer does not like my references for numbers 75 and 76 found in the "Foreign Immigration" section. I am admittedly no good at references. Anyone care to help out? Thanks -- Daveblack ( talk) 14:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a cordial disagreement about whether the article is too long, and if so, by how much, and how it should be shortened. If subarticles are to be created, what would be the best way to do that? - Oreo Priest talk 17:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
[Copied from peer review, where this discussion started]
[end of copy from peer review]
I start a new review of this article. Vb ( talk) 21:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Work in progress... Vb ( talk) 21:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps rather than frenchification or francisation, gallicisation could be used? It's attractive, neutral and has a long history in the English language 41.241.31.22 ( talk) 22:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This "Frenchification of Brussels" article reflects solely the point of view of the flemings (The topic itself and the problematic way it is presented). Though the references at the end of the article comprises some french contributions, the content, the figures, the way they are analyzed express only the point of view of flemish associations or organizations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guy ( talk) 19:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The fact that most of the intervention come from Oreo Priest who makes notes about the NVA which is the main nationalist party in Belgian has a feeling this article is really biaised and oriented. It is a shame that such a good instrument as wikipedia is used to spread nationalist motives. Krakkobe ( talk) 15:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
For me it doesn't matter what you claim as it is not possible to check nationality or all the informations you put and actually it is not that important. What I can see is that you make so many contributions about Belgium and specially about some very specific things like the government or the communauty of Flanders that is seems pretty obvious that you must demonstrate a very good knowledge of Dutch and French to translate such informations. If you don't I would find very harmful that you relay the first article in Dutch because of the oriented references. Anyway you don't convince me with your arguments of impartiality and it would be a good thing to add a banner for partial neutrality. Good day Krakkobe ( talk) 07:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I may be aggressive but that is a from a fair point of view because this article is more of a demonstration that Brussels is a flemish city that has been spoiled from its language than what is is really : a city that long has been in the cultural area of latin and germanic influences. Even in your references such as "Helder De Schutter; Ann Mares, Els Witte (ed.) (2001). "Taalpolitiek en multiculturalisme in het Brussels Nederlandstalig onderwijs", it is clearly said that the local Brussels dialect was a pure mix of French and Dutch. I give you the definition of immigration "To enter and settle in a country to which one is not native", the paragraph "French-speaking immigration" is insultive because you are not an immigrant in your own country : this is insulting for both the wallons and the flemish people who came to live in Brussels. And finally Oreao Priest erased my remarks about the roman settlement in Schaerbeek though he left strangelly my reference I added in the article as if it personnaly indisposed him that most of the cities in Belgium have also a latin part in them wether it is Brussels, Tongeren or Tournai. What to do next, detroy manually the roman ruins, latin or French antic pergaments to be sure that no one contest the pure germanic origin of Brussels? This is sick. Anyway, this is getting close to a Godwin point and there is no point of making arguments with people who have made their mind already. good day. Krakkobe ( talk) 22:15, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
The edit was made by Hooiwind, he know himself perfectly. The qualification migrant-immigrant is very sensitively used in the Flemish media who stigmatise the french speakers living in the surroundind of Brussels giving them the names of immigrants, thank you for adapting that. Anyway, a fair thing would be that this article represent the Flemish point of view about Brussels as the University of Laval made about the regions in Belgium giving a public tribune from all regions. Krakkobe ( talk) 14:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, the last sentence of the introduction lacks neutrality. First, francization is presented as " cultural imperialism". Is this factual? If so, I think the connection between the two notions must be made explicit. If not factual, this sentence needs to be removed or modified to highlight whose opinion it is. Secondly, "some monolingual French-speaking communities" are said to be "often imbued with a condescending attitude [...] towards Dutch". Again, is this factual? If so, references are needed. The use of the pronoun "some" is vague and needs to be replaced by a quantity. If not factual, this sentence needs to be removed or modified. Thedarkfly ( talk) 09:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC) Given the lack of reaction, I will tag the sentences I find problematic. Thedarkfly ( talk) 10:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
I find the current article confusing because it doesn't make clear what kind of bilingualism is involved in the language shift, whether the linguistic competence of individuals or the use of different languages in the community by speakers who may in fact be substantially (or increasingly) monolingual. For example, the statement in the introduction "from a Dutch-speaking city to one that is bilingual or even multilingual," doesn't fit my understanding of the changing language situation. My impression was that in the late 19th century, most Brussels residents were native-speakers of Dutch but were educated exclusively in French. So it seems that at that time individual bilingualism was very high, and there was de facto community bilingualism even if Dutch was excluded from certain domains like government and education (and thus the form of Dutch would be mostly spoken Brabantian, rather than standard Dutch with a standard written form). Since then, it seems there has been a language-shift among majority of residents (many with Flemish-speaking grandparents) so that many are now native speakers of French, also educated in French, and many (most?) never learn Dutch as a second language. The Dutch-to-Francophone segment of the Brussels population is culturally integrated with other Francophone segments such as migrants from Wallonia, immigrant communities who almost all are or become Francophone, and EU employees and their families. As a result, Brussels is now 85% Francophone, and most of the Francophones do not speak or read Dutch. So the trend in individual bilingualism seems to be the opposite of what was stated. From widespread individual bilingualism (mostly native-speakers of Dutch who were literate in French if they are literate at all), to more limited bilingualism (especially among the 85% of Brussels residents who are Francophones; if they have a second language it is likely to be English, not many are fluent or literate in Dutch). In terms of community bilingualism, Brussels was bilingual before but Dutch was marginalized in important domains like government and education. Brussels has some kind of community bilingualism today, but perhaps it is more polarized, with the Dutch-speaking 15% minority sending their kids to Dutch-speaking schools where they learn to be individual multilinguals (at least French and English as second languages), while the Francophone majority send their kids to Francophone schools (where their may become individual bilinguals, but I suspect English is learned more than Dutch). If my understanding is correct, a better characterization of the language shift whould be something like: "from a bilingual community where the majority of residents were native-speakers of Dutch, with widespread individual bilingualism (and literacy) in French; to a very different and more polarized bilingual community today, where a much smaller percentage are individual bilinguals. The members of the Francophone majority (85% of residents, of a diverse ethnolinguistic heritage, not majority Walloon) are less likely to have individual bilingualism in French and Dutch today, compared to to the prevalent individual bilingualism in Dutch and French during the late 19th century (when the majority of residents were native-speakers of Dutch). In Brussels today, it is only among native-speakers of Dutch (15% of the population) where Dutch-French bilingualism is widespread." That is too long to squeeze into the introductory paragraph, I would appreciate assistance or suggestions where the clarifications might go, if they are correct. I would also like to ask for assistance in identifying references to support the clarification of the language situation. - Fbkintanar ( talk) 09:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was Move. Cúchullain t/ c 18:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Frenchification of Brussels → Francisation of Brussels – Based purely on the following:
Word | Description (on Dictionary.com) |
---|---|
frenchification | "to make (something or someone) resemble the French, as in manners, customs, or dress: to Frenchify the spelling of one's name." |
francisation | "to make or become French-speaking" |
- SSJ t 22:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I see that the page was recently moved to Francisation of Brussels. Great! However, I disagree with the change from the original spellings to UK/Irish. I spent quite a lot of time translating the original page and it has a very consistent history of using American spelling. Besides, this has already been discussed at topic number 6 on this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Francisation_of_Brussels#WP:ENGVAR Oreopriest writes: "Under WP:ENGVAR, European articles do not have to be in UK English. You'll notice it says EU Institutions and not all European related articles, for which the general rule applies."
The publication of EU documents (which are published in many languages) does not constitute a "strong tie to a particular English-speaking nation" WP:TIES. This is a far-fetched reason for choosing a spelling. However, the articles DOES have a long history of using American spellings, so it in fact fall under WP:RETAIN.
Should I request another move? Kind regards, -- Daveblack ( talk) 13:55, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I suppose, "The transition began gradually in the 18th century" dates the beginning too late.
My evidences:
The use of French before the second half of the 18th century was marginal and limited to the nobility only (as in Russia and Prussia, indeed). In 1760 the French-speaking minority (or rather, those who preferred French [sic]) was probably between 5-10%, which by 1780 may have risen to 15% (ref. in the Dutch article [51][17][20][4][9]). By 1821 the French minority would have approached 20% (Dutch ref. [17][9]), and would remain stable until the end of the 19th century (Dutch ref [23][2][18][36][2]). After 1880 (Dutch ref. [15][16][17]), due to the increased access to education, knowledge of French amongst the other classes surged. A generation later, after 1910, the French minority would start to grow beyond a quarter of the population (Dutch ref. [23][27]), not to pass the 50% treshold however until during the second half of the 20th century (the last census of 1947, however unreliable, showed a French-only community of 38% - ignoring personal bilingualism). This may contradict the (indeed original) research mentioned above, those inscriptions on the Grand Place are obviously "new original". -- Hooiwind ( talk) 19:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)