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section it should be tagged/removed as appropriate. I'd encourage you to either tag the sentences or bring them to the talk page in this section so they can be discussed.-- Crossmr ( talk) 03:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This was an obviously well researched article but I believe some important points have been missed when discussing film noir. As was correctly stated, noir, Fr. for black was used intermittingly as a double entendre. The definition was black film. The reasons are both obvious, this was black and white film, and maybe a little more subtle; this was the first time in cinematic history the the hero sometimes got away with the crime, ie: Bette Davis in "The Letter" or Richard Widmark,in "Knight in the City". Up until this time it was thought that only the good guys won.Morals- you know. The large list of Film Noir from the 40's through the 50's was due in fact to a glut of young, up and coming directors that couldn't get A-list work. These were inexpensive (for the times) fims to create. And from these we got such A class assets as even Francis Ford Coppola, and Capra. What we find interesting considering special effects were few as compared to todays PC techno-wired world, was that just by using light in the right way you could create very impressive drama. Take a look at Edmund O'Brien in the movie DOA as he is lit from the ground up as he announces that he has just been murdered. And how many stagings were there when the criminal kid was caught with an irish cop directly behind him (With the cop's hand on the kid's shoulder) and a priest behind both just a little off center so you could see them foreground to background, 1-2-3.Film Noir continues today. I believe a perfect example is Pulp Fiction and or Reservoir Dogs. Or just grab Quentin Terrantino and throw him up on the screen. I just wanted to add this, not delete anything from the Wikipedia article. I personally appreciate the article's depth.
There really ought to be some mention of Danny Boyle's contribution to the modern dark cinema (neo-noir) movement, coming strongly out of the UK and Channel Four Films. Titles such as "Trainspotting" and "A Life Less Ordinary" are DEFINING films in the movement. I am literally shocked not to see Boyle and at least one of these films mentioned in this article. -- Maximilian77 ( talk) 23:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Might it be worthwhile to mention the Big Lebowski as a noir parody? The Cohen brothers go so far as to include a private eye character who eventually directly expresses his admiration for the titular character for making all of the moves a noir private eye makes, and is flatly refused and ignored by the title character. Any noir fan who sees the scene immediately makes the connection, in my experience. 210.174.6.89 ( talk) 11:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The article consistently renders the plural "film noirs." Shouldn't it be "films noirs"? Mind you, just before I wrote this, I got up and checked five or six dictionaries, and not one of them some much as addressed the plural. 140.147.236.194 ( talk) 13:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
This seems like a silly thread, really. "Noir films" sounds fine, but what about "films noir?" This seems like the most sensible choice of description that no one has mentioned. Have you all studied film? Burninggirl2003 ( talk) 10:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Things such as "Neo-noir/Take 2: Sharon Stone as Catherine Tramell, a femme fatale for the 1990s—and the ages—in the smash box-office hit Basic Instinct" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.146.184 ( talk) 20:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
...and under SciFi Noir, there's this little tidbit - which is debatable, tacked on and really has nothing to do with anything else: 'Fincher's feature debut was Alien 3 (1992), which evoked the classic noir jail movie Brute Force.'-- 70.181.137.219 ( talk) 04:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
After some deliberation I have decided the {{ essay}} tag is most appropriate for this article, although the {{ refimprove}} or {{ npov}} could also apply. The problem is this article keeps expressing opinions but giving no attribution whatseover, which runs afowl of core policies like WP:V and WP:N I consider the following lines to instances where, without any reference, this article makes opinionated claims:
I guess most of these claims are probably mostly accurate, but they're still opinions. We need to know whose opinions they are... otherwise this is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. These are just some examples... although if they are addressed I will consent to removing the essay tag. -- Chiliad22 ( talk) 17:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Add me to the list of people who agree that the essay tag was clearly valid and necessary. DreamGuy ( talk) 16:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
And so the Film Noir article is written in the style of film noir? -- SunDog | Talk 14:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
One more here who agrees that the essay tag is needed. And I hope I don't come across as incivilly to newbs as did DocKino. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 01:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
How can we discuss the genre and not put in the classic modern film Angel Heart this is the ultimate illustration of film noir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.35.246 ( talk) 19:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The movie Mulholland Falls could be covered too (not to be confused with Mulholland Drive). And would The Reflecting Skin qualify as a film noir? 84.174.236.166 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC).
Although I agree that things must be referenced, what if the reference is wrong? I have worked my way through films noir, using this article as a guide and watching the movies. I added "Alphaville" to the Parodies section for the simple reason that it is, as I explained in a comment on the article for that movie. ("Professors Heckyl and Jeckyl," for instance.) I am currently watching "Wonder Man" (1945), the Danny Kaye movie, and it has nothing to do with film noir, being a musical comedy and comedic ghost story that happens to have the noir actor Steve Cochrane playing a minor part as a gangster. However, "Silver and Ward (1992), p. 332" is given as a reference that this film is a noir parody, which suggests to me that Silver and Ward don't know noir or never saw the movie. "Wonder Man" does not belong in this article at all. I'm removing it, despite the reference. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) Eric
Another. In "The Big Steal", Mitchum makes fun of himself with some dialog about how he says 'Umm-humm" (breaking the wall) and there are jokes about being unable to speak understandable Spanish to Spanish speakers, but that doesn't make the film a parody. This movie is not very good, but bad scripting, bad plot, bad acting (at times) and bad direction don't make a movie a parody. I'm not making any more changes to the article. Evaluate and comment, please. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) Eric —Preceding undated comment added 21:16, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
And another. How is "Murder by Contract (1958), ... a deadpan joke on noir"? This is simply a straightforward story of a guy who becomes a hit man and can't execute his last contract. There are no parody-like elements in it, at all. This is actually a fairly good movie with a "bleak" ending as the article says. I am very tempted to remove this from the article, but it does qualify a film noir in many ways, such as camera angles and dialog. The final "target" that the hit man can't kill could be the "femme fatale." ... Now, on the other hand, "His Kind of Woman" with Robert Mitchum has a lot of noir elements, but Vincent Price, who is serious at first, turns in a fine comedy performance later as a parody of the "American who gets things done" if I may call it that. That itself doesn't make it a noir parody, but apparently Howard Hughes couldn't cut out Price's performance when he ruined the movie in other ways, as described in the article about it. No changes to the article. I realize this is original research but I ain't got time to write a book. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) 23:34, 25 July 2017 (UTC) Eric
The long-standing, and indisputably literal, translation of "film noir" as "black film" in the lead section was recently challenged. I don't love that one of the two sources of support for the challenge (in favor of "dark film") is the Encyclopedia Britannica--ideally, we're supposed to outdo them, not rely on them, right?
In any event, the translation of "black film" is very well established. I do believe Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward's noir encyclopedia is universally regarded as the leading reference book on the topic. On the first page of its introduction, we find this passage:
"Film noir" is literally "black film"...
Similarly, the entry on film noir in one of the leading industry lexicons--Kevin Jackson's The Language of Cinema--begins like this:
film noir or film noir, sometimes abbreviated to noir literally "black film"
So...we might decide to say "black film" or "dark film", but it's definitely not "dark film" instead of "black film". DocKino ( talk) 03:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Kudos to the authors of this article. It’s clearly organized, eminently readable, and almost overwhelmingly complete. – jacobolus (t) 21:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Why none Frank Miller's pictures? Or Rodrigez "Sin City" film? Neonoir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.146.49 ( talk) 16:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: The conclusion was to not merge Labattblueboy ( talk) 05:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The article for film noir already covers neo-noir and in greater detail than the separate article, therefore the two articles should be merged.-- May Cause Dizziness ( talk) 18:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree mentioning or quoting Dicko might not be justified and is definitely not need. However I don't agree with deleting his book from the sources or further reading list after it is fairly recent academic publication on the overall subject, which to me at first glance at least justifies an entry under further reading.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 10:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not a habitual Wikipedian, so excuse me if I'm transgressing any conventions.
It's my understanding that Nino Frank's use of the adjective "noir" in his famous article is a reference to a series of translations of American crime novels published in France from 1945 that used distinctive black covers, and were known collectively as "la série noire" ("the black series") and individually as "romans noirs" ("black novels"). This is very much like the use of " Gialli" in Italian to refer to the style of novels originally published in yellow covers.
While the choice of black for the book covers was surely no accident, and the connotations of the colour relate clearly to the themes of a typical film noir and the chiaroscuro style of cinematography, Frank's use of the word is simply drawing an analogy between the content and style of the films and the content and style of the novels via the colour of the novels' covers. This is discussed in various published sources (for example, Anne-Françoise Lesuisse's "Du Film Noir au Noir") and clarifies the translation of "noir" as "black" (rather than "dark").
The French "film noir" Wikipedia page and the English Wikipedia page for hardboiled fiction both mention La Série Noire, as does Nino Frank's English Wikipedia page. Shouldn't it be mentioned here?
82.123.197.46 ( talk) 12:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
The Yakuza would slot into 70s-80s film noir although its cult following exceeded its box office. 122.148.41.172 ( talk)
Could «The Crow» (1994, starring Brandon Lee), be considered as a Neo-Noir film? Throughout the internet there are some sources pro, and some sources anti. In my opinion it just is or isn't. Is it that easy to explain, or is the aforementioned film a borderline case? 「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 15:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Should tech noir be linked here, or explained in brief? Wnt ( talk) 03:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I am shocked to see a front page article with a pornographic picture that had nothing to do with Film Noir, I hope someone can relink the original photo back to its original picture. 5:50 2 October, 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.141.215.20 ( talk)
The lead seems to suggest the criteria for film noir, is that it is a hollywood movie, I don't think that is true. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 19:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the photograph of Marlene Dietrich used in the 'Cinematic sources' section is a promo shot for Morocco and not for Der Blaue Engel (as it says in the caption). Could anyone check up on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.241.210.203 ( talk) 20:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
DCGeist has been stubbornly refusing to accept the changing of
to the more direct
so I've been forced to bring this to Talk. The article is full of films that are "acknowledged masterpieces", and if the article were to get sidetracked with mentioning accolades after every notable film then it would get quite cluttered indeed. Besides of which, it's odd that Raging Bull would be the only one that mentions AFI's ranking and not Citizen Kane. But regardless, there's no reason for Raging Bull to have the more verbose praising in the article and the cowriter credit instead of release year goes against the prose of the rest of the article.-- Remurmur ( talk) 20:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Well reading the arguments here the first question comes into my mind is: "Does it really matter ?" There's no important disgreement regarding content that's really worth fighting about, but an argument about a single line that in doubt works either way, so it seems to be more a taste and ego thing. In that sense the title is rather well picked, but it kinda questions its own creator as well.
Imho it is a good idea to edit featured articles in a conservative fashion, i.e. avoid changes in particular in matter of taste, style and minor details unless there's a real need for it. If an article has a featured status you can assume that the current content, style and details were vetted and agreed upon by many authors, hence you shouldn't tinker with that unless you have good reason to do so. Correcting errors or adding new important/relevant information would be such a good reason, but slight differences in taste, style or minor details are not.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 14:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Under the section, 1980's and 1990's, there is a side bar. It states that Dub Driving is a musical piece from the David Lynch film Lost Highway, 1996. The separate article on another page on Lost Highway states that the release date for that movie is January of 1997. Well, which is it? How come there are these inconsistencies on Wikipedia? L. Thomas W. ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC) L. Thomas W. L. Thomas W. ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
DancingPhilosopher has added their POV push to the lead. Tagged. I will leave this up briefly for comment, then remove it unless there is support from the community. User talk:Unfriend12 23:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
This section has been changed *greatly* since the GA review, and I am not at all sure the changes, most especially this latest change in removing the plot-based description, are an improvement. I have restored this once, but it has been removed again. I'll leave it out, briefly, unless there is further support for removal. It seems key. User talk:Unfriend12 23:23, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
The essay-like structure that is apparently found by everyone (except me) appropriate for the encyclopedic article will stay. I admit to having made mistake by not taking my edits to Talk page before making such an extensive change to the featured article, but there are still two questions I'd like to hear an answer to.
Firstly, how come there is no place in the lede for acknowledging that the genre is not entirely home-grown product, i.e. it was the Germans fleeing from Nazis that adapted for screen the hardboiled fiction?
Secondly, how come the parallels between two historical contexts (police in Nazi Germany persecuting not only the "ordinary" criminals, but also those suspected to be Jews, including some of the German filmmakers, such as Fritz Lang, and, in the New World the corrupted police in the Prohibition period, that the protagonists had to - in addition to crime perpetrators - deal with in the hardboiled fiction) that must have motivated the Germans, is of no importance according to the featured version of the article? DancingPhilosopher my talk 12:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of film-noir. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein ( talk) 23:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The screen grab of The Big Combo is the only image demonstrating the characteristic visuals of the genre included in the article, and is thus ideal for the opening. For that reason I have reverted the change of IP 108.65.152.120, a few hours ago, to an image of Humnphrey Bogart from the trailer of The Maltese Falcon. We already have two images of Bogart in the article, which given the need to represent the whole genre, is sufficient. The image of him with Lauren Bacall from The Big Sleep could be better, but Wikimedia Commons does not contain another photograph of them together from that film. There are some superior images of them from To Have and Have Not and Dark Passage which are potential substitutions. Philip Cross ( talk) 06:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
While admittedly there are dark overtones to The Dark Knight films, I don't see how a Batman film can be called a film noir. It's about a comic book character. They've got huge budgets and millions spent on special effects. They are cartoonish. Just because a protagonist has inner conflicts and lives in a claustrophobic, depressing environment, doesn't make a movie a film noir. Typically, in a film noir, the hero does not put on a rubber suit and fight crime against comic book villains. What's next, Spiderman? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 23:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Matter of fact, Joker (Nicholson) points out several times, the noir asthetic regarding Basinger's character (Vicki Vale) and her reporting of the war in the Corto Maltese (Fictional Country) Burton's movies in general, as a matter of fact have the dark gritty atmosphere that should be regarded as noir, but Batman especially being it's American Crime action/Drama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.102.162 ( talk) 02:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Provide the source and you can add the films yourself. By the way, the Dieselpunk article could use some attention and more solid examples of what it includes. Dimadick ( talk) 07:20, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
USA Today has a good review of a new television episode which was filmed in noir style aimed at a young audience Bachcell ( talk) 04:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
For all the reasons that have been stated in past years. There are many opinions stated as facts, without references. The writing style is at best flowery and loquacious, and frequently devolves into academic pomposity. Some examples:
"Where Polanski and Towne raised noir to a black apogee by turning rearward, director Martin Scorsese and screenwriter Paul Schrader brought the noir attitude crashing into the present day with Taxi Driver (1976), a crackling, bloody-minded gloss on bicentennial America."
"A manifest affiliation with noir traditions—which, by its nature, allows different sorts of commentary on them to be inferred—can also provide the basis for explicit critiques of those traditions."
157.182.105.1 ( talk) 05:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I know this talk page isn't a forum, but I saw this and thought Wikipedians might be interested in and/or benefit from it: https://www.canvas.net/browse/bsu/tcm/courses/film-noir. -- Softlavender ( talk) 04:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
" Wikipedia is not about terms but about phenomena (and possibly concepts)", writes Ettrig. Yes, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary. However, encyclopedia entries are often helped by clarification of relevant terms. (I'm sure that this one is.) And the new version --
seems wrong to me. Rather, FN is very often but not always found in the genre of crime film (we see it in other genres too); and it's characterized by a certain kind of visual style and/or a moral ambiguousness or uncertainty. To quote this very WP article: "While many critics refer to film noir as a genre itself, others argue that it can be no such thing". -- Hoary ( talk) 12:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The Maltese Falcon to "Body of Lies": Spies, Noirs, and Trust by Robert von Hallberg, 2015, University of New Mexico Press Jodi.a.schneider ( talk) 20:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
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How to connect wifi in china Fu yuan yu 21 ( talk) 12:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
So.What now? Fu yuan yu 21 ( talk) 12:47, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
An article was recently created for film noir innovator Boris Ingster, director of Stranger on the Third Floor. This new article needs more biographical information about his studies in Russia in the 1920s, his work with Sergei Eisenstein in 1930 in France, and his 1930s screenwriting in the US. More quality sources are needed, and a non-copyrighted or fair use photo of Ingster would be good. Thanks. OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
"Bad girl movies" is a completely unsourced list of noir films. I propose that any sourced content (possibly nothing) be merged into Film noir, and the page redirected. pburka ( talk) 18:28, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 March 2022 and 10 June 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
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article contribs). Peer reviewers:
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— Assignment last updated by Elyonn ( talk) 03:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Ppprru, Kyleighkimbrell, Erikp246, and Elyonn:
The following student contribution makes some good points, but there are problems with grammar, formatting, sources, and an added image that should be corrected before it is made a part of the film noir article. -- Jeremy Butler ( talk) 11:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
== Film Noirs and Disability ==
Film noirs have a deep relationship with disability no matter for the representation of the beauty, excitement, inspiring or foreshadowing the side stories. In fact, there were lots of stereotypes when looking at disability within film noirs.
=== '''Film noir’s relations with disability''' ===
From a journal “Phantom Limbs: Film Noir and the Disabled Body” [1] by Michael Davidson from the GLQ:A Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies. In many noir examples, Many disabled characters played whether a supporting roles, evil roles or the cameo role. The boy who's deaf (Dickie Moore [2]) played multiple roles in the movie “Out of Past [3]” from 1947, protecting the main character also pushing the story line. Movie “The Fallen Sparrow” [4] from 1943, the “man who limps” was the evil character perhaps got killed at the end. In “The Blur Dahlia” [5]from 1946, a disabled soldier that returned from World War II Johnny Morrison(Alan Ladd) found out his wife has been unfaithful to him which made him killed her.
Disability played an important role in film noir. From the article "Concerto for the Left Hand: Disability and the Defamiliar Body. [6]" from Journal of Modern Literature. Disability is the central point in film noir, it is very inspiring since in film noir the disabled body gives audience the same viewing pleasure as the female body.
In numerous noir films, being disabled marked as a sexual inscrutability. Film theory has focused on mantis-like features of the femme fatale characters, and most of their husband were in a disabled state. For example, In Double Indemnity (1944) Mrs. Dietrichson’s husband is on crutches; in The Lady from Shanghai (1948) Elsa Bannister’s husband wears braces and uses a cane; in Walk on the Wild Side (1962) Jo’s husband’s legs have been amputated, and he pulls himself around on a dolly [7].
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I removed "vulgar auterism" from the See also section. It's defined as "championing or reappraising filmmakers, mostly those working in horror and action genres...assessing 'unserious' artistry of popcorn cinema..." Doesn't sound like film noir to me, and the term must not be in the article or it wouldn't be in See also. -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 07:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
In the 6th paragraph of the Classic period section, Directors and the business of noir sub-section, there is this sentence: "Serving as producer, writer, director and top-billed performer, Hugo Haas made films like Pickup (1951), The Other Woman (1954) and Jacques Tourneur, The Fearmakers (1958). "Jacques Tourneur" is not a film Hugo Haas made. I assume the sentence is trying to say Jacques Tourneur made The Fearmakers in a manner simmilar to the way in which Haas made his films, but it's going to need some more words, and I don't want to be the one to add them because I really don't know exactly what the editor was trying to say. Any thoughts? -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 21:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Since the lead uses "films noir" for the plural of "film noir", I've edited the rest of the article to reflect this. -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 06:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
section it should be tagged/removed as appropriate. I'd encourage you to either tag the sentences or bring them to the talk page in this section so they can be discussed.-- Crossmr ( talk) 03:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This was an obviously well researched article but I believe some important points have been missed when discussing film noir. As was correctly stated, noir, Fr. for black was used intermittingly as a double entendre. The definition was black film. The reasons are both obvious, this was black and white film, and maybe a little more subtle; this was the first time in cinematic history the the hero sometimes got away with the crime, ie: Bette Davis in "The Letter" or Richard Widmark,in "Knight in the City". Up until this time it was thought that only the good guys won.Morals- you know. The large list of Film Noir from the 40's through the 50's was due in fact to a glut of young, up and coming directors that couldn't get A-list work. These were inexpensive (for the times) fims to create. And from these we got such A class assets as even Francis Ford Coppola, and Capra. What we find interesting considering special effects were few as compared to todays PC techno-wired world, was that just by using light in the right way you could create very impressive drama. Take a look at Edmund O'Brien in the movie DOA as he is lit from the ground up as he announces that he has just been murdered. And how many stagings were there when the criminal kid was caught with an irish cop directly behind him (With the cop's hand on the kid's shoulder) and a priest behind both just a little off center so you could see them foreground to background, 1-2-3.Film Noir continues today. I believe a perfect example is Pulp Fiction and or Reservoir Dogs. Or just grab Quentin Terrantino and throw him up on the screen. I just wanted to add this, not delete anything from the Wikipedia article. I personally appreciate the article's depth.
There really ought to be some mention of Danny Boyle's contribution to the modern dark cinema (neo-noir) movement, coming strongly out of the UK and Channel Four Films. Titles such as "Trainspotting" and "A Life Less Ordinary" are DEFINING films in the movement. I am literally shocked not to see Boyle and at least one of these films mentioned in this article. -- Maximilian77 ( talk) 23:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Might it be worthwhile to mention the Big Lebowski as a noir parody? The Cohen brothers go so far as to include a private eye character who eventually directly expresses his admiration for the titular character for making all of the moves a noir private eye makes, and is flatly refused and ignored by the title character. Any noir fan who sees the scene immediately makes the connection, in my experience. 210.174.6.89 ( talk) 11:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The article consistently renders the plural "film noirs." Shouldn't it be "films noirs"? Mind you, just before I wrote this, I got up and checked five or six dictionaries, and not one of them some much as addressed the plural. 140.147.236.194 ( talk) 13:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
This seems like a silly thread, really. "Noir films" sounds fine, but what about "films noir?" This seems like the most sensible choice of description that no one has mentioned. Have you all studied film? Burninggirl2003 ( talk) 10:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Things such as "Neo-noir/Take 2: Sharon Stone as Catherine Tramell, a femme fatale for the 1990s—and the ages—in the smash box-office hit Basic Instinct" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.146.184 ( talk) 20:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
...and under SciFi Noir, there's this little tidbit - which is debatable, tacked on and really has nothing to do with anything else: 'Fincher's feature debut was Alien 3 (1992), which evoked the classic noir jail movie Brute Force.'-- 70.181.137.219 ( talk) 04:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
After some deliberation I have decided the {{ essay}} tag is most appropriate for this article, although the {{ refimprove}} or {{ npov}} could also apply. The problem is this article keeps expressing opinions but giving no attribution whatseover, which runs afowl of core policies like WP:V and WP:N I consider the following lines to instances where, without any reference, this article makes opinionated claims:
I guess most of these claims are probably mostly accurate, but they're still opinions. We need to know whose opinions they are... otherwise this is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. These are just some examples... although if they are addressed I will consent to removing the essay tag. -- Chiliad22 ( talk) 17:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Add me to the list of people who agree that the essay tag was clearly valid and necessary. DreamGuy ( talk) 16:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
And so the Film Noir article is written in the style of film noir? -- SunDog | Talk 14:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
One more here who agrees that the essay tag is needed. And I hope I don't come across as incivilly to newbs as did DocKino. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 01:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
How can we discuss the genre and not put in the classic modern film Angel Heart this is the ultimate illustration of film noir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.35.246 ( talk) 19:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The movie Mulholland Falls could be covered too (not to be confused with Mulholland Drive). And would The Reflecting Skin qualify as a film noir? 84.174.236.166 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC).
Although I agree that things must be referenced, what if the reference is wrong? I have worked my way through films noir, using this article as a guide and watching the movies. I added "Alphaville" to the Parodies section for the simple reason that it is, as I explained in a comment on the article for that movie. ("Professors Heckyl and Jeckyl," for instance.) I am currently watching "Wonder Man" (1945), the Danny Kaye movie, and it has nothing to do with film noir, being a musical comedy and comedic ghost story that happens to have the noir actor Steve Cochrane playing a minor part as a gangster. However, "Silver and Ward (1992), p. 332" is given as a reference that this film is a noir parody, which suggests to me that Silver and Ward don't know noir or never saw the movie. "Wonder Man" does not belong in this article at all. I'm removing it, despite the reference. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) Eric
Another. In "The Big Steal", Mitchum makes fun of himself with some dialog about how he says 'Umm-humm" (breaking the wall) and there are jokes about being unable to speak understandable Spanish to Spanish speakers, but that doesn't make the film a parody. This movie is not very good, but bad scripting, bad plot, bad acting (at times) and bad direction don't make a movie a parody. I'm not making any more changes to the article. Evaluate and comment, please. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) Eric —Preceding undated comment added 21:16, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
And another. How is "Murder by Contract (1958), ... a deadpan joke on noir"? This is simply a straightforward story of a guy who becomes a hit man and can't execute his last contract. There are no parody-like elements in it, at all. This is actually a fairly good movie with a "bleak" ending as the article says. I am very tempted to remove this from the article, but it does qualify a film noir in many ways, such as camera angles and dialog. The final "target" that the hit man can't kill could be the "femme fatale." ... Now, on the other hand, "His Kind of Woman" with Robert Mitchum has a lot of noir elements, but Vincent Price, who is serious at first, turns in a fine comedy performance later as a parody of the "American who gets things done" if I may call it that. That itself doesn't make it a noir parody, but apparently Howard Hughes couldn't cut out Price's performance when he ruined the movie in other ways, as described in the article about it. No changes to the article. I realize this is original research but I ain't got time to write a book. 173.174.85.204 ( talk) 23:34, 25 July 2017 (UTC) Eric
The long-standing, and indisputably literal, translation of "film noir" as "black film" in the lead section was recently challenged. I don't love that one of the two sources of support for the challenge (in favor of "dark film") is the Encyclopedia Britannica--ideally, we're supposed to outdo them, not rely on them, right?
In any event, the translation of "black film" is very well established. I do believe Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward's noir encyclopedia is universally regarded as the leading reference book on the topic. On the first page of its introduction, we find this passage:
"Film noir" is literally "black film"...
Similarly, the entry on film noir in one of the leading industry lexicons--Kevin Jackson's The Language of Cinema--begins like this:
film noir or film noir, sometimes abbreviated to noir literally "black film"
So...we might decide to say "black film" or "dark film", but it's definitely not "dark film" instead of "black film". DocKino ( talk) 03:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Kudos to the authors of this article. It’s clearly organized, eminently readable, and almost overwhelmingly complete. – jacobolus (t) 21:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Why none Frank Miller's pictures? Or Rodrigez "Sin City" film? Neonoir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.146.49 ( talk) 16:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: The conclusion was to not merge Labattblueboy ( talk) 05:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The article for film noir already covers neo-noir and in greater detail than the separate article, therefore the two articles should be merged.-- May Cause Dizziness ( talk) 18:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree mentioning or quoting Dicko might not be justified and is definitely not need. However I don't agree with deleting his book from the sources or further reading list after it is fairly recent academic publication on the overall subject, which to me at first glance at least justifies an entry under further reading.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 10:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not a habitual Wikipedian, so excuse me if I'm transgressing any conventions.
It's my understanding that Nino Frank's use of the adjective "noir" in his famous article is a reference to a series of translations of American crime novels published in France from 1945 that used distinctive black covers, and were known collectively as "la série noire" ("the black series") and individually as "romans noirs" ("black novels"). This is very much like the use of " Gialli" in Italian to refer to the style of novels originally published in yellow covers.
While the choice of black for the book covers was surely no accident, and the connotations of the colour relate clearly to the themes of a typical film noir and the chiaroscuro style of cinematography, Frank's use of the word is simply drawing an analogy between the content and style of the films and the content and style of the novels via the colour of the novels' covers. This is discussed in various published sources (for example, Anne-Françoise Lesuisse's "Du Film Noir au Noir") and clarifies the translation of "noir" as "black" (rather than "dark").
The French "film noir" Wikipedia page and the English Wikipedia page for hardboiled fiction both mention La Série Noire, as does Nino Frank's English Wikipedia page. Shouldn't it be mentioned here?
82.123.197.46 ( talk) 12:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
The Yakuza would slot into 70s-80s film noir although its cult following exceeded its box office. 122.148.41.172 ( talk)
Could «The Crow» (1994, starring Brandon Lee), be considered as a Neo-Noir film? Throughout the internet there are some sources pro, and some sources anti. In my opinion it just is or isn't. Is it that easy to explain, or is the aforementioned film a borderline case? 「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 15:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Should tech noir be linked here, or explained in brief? Wnt ( talk) 03:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I am shocked to see a front page article with a pornographic picture that had nothing to do with Film Noir, I hope someone can relink the original photo back to its original picture. 5:50 2 October, 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.141.215.20 ( talk)
The lead seems to suggest the criteria for film noir, is that it is a hollywood movie, I don't think that is true. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 19:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the photograph of Marlene Dietrich used in the 'Cinematic sources' section is a promo shot for Morocco and not for Der Blaue Engel (as it says in the caption). Could anyone check up on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.241.210.203 ( talk) 20:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
DCGeist has been stubbornly refusing to accept the changing of
to the more direct
so I've been forced to bring this to Talk. The article is full of films that are "acknowledged masterpieces", and if the article were to get sidetracked with mentioning accolades after every notable film then it would get quite cluttered indeed. Besides of which, it's odd that Raging Bull would be the only one that mentions AFI's ranking and not Citizen Kane. But regardless, there's no reason for Raging Bull to have the more verbose praising in the article and the cowriter credit instead of release year goes against the prose of the rest of the article.-- Remurmur ( talk) 20:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Well reading the arguments here the first question comes into my mind is: "Does it really matter ?" There's no important disgreement regarding content that's really worth fighting about, but an argument about a single line that in doubt works either way, so it seems to be more a taste and ego thing. In that sense the title is rather well picked, but it kinda questions its own creator as well.
Imho it is a good idea to edit featured articles in a conservative fashion, i.e. avoid changes in particular in matter of taste, style and minor details unless there's a real need for it. If an article has a featured status you can assume that the current content, style and details were vetted and agreed upon by many authors, hence you shouldn't tinker with that unless you have good reason to do so. Correcting errors or adding new important/relevant information would be such a good reason, but slight differences in taste, style or minor details are not.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 14:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Under the section, 1980's and 1990's, there is a side bar. It states that Dub Driving is a musical piece from the David Lynch film Lost Highway, 1996. The separate article on another page on Lost Highway states that the release date for that movie is January of 1997. Well, which is it? How come there are these inconsistencies on Wikipedia? L. Thomas W. ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC) L. Thomas W. L. Thomas W. ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
DancingPhilosopher has added their POV push to the lead. Tagged. I will leave this up briefly for comment, then remove it unless there is support from the community. User talk:Unfriend12 23:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
This section has been changed *greatly* since the GA review, and I am not at all sure the changes, most especially this latest change in removing the plot-based description, are an improvement. I have restored this once, but it has been removed again. I'll leave it out, briefly, unless there is further support for removal. It seems key. User talk:Unfriend12 23:23, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
The essay-like structure that is apparently found by everyone (except me) appropriate for the encyclopedic article will stay. I admit to having made mistake by not taking my edits to Talk page before making such an extensive change to the featured article, but there are still two questions I'd like to hear an answer to.
Firstly, how come there is no place in the lede for acknowledging that the genre is not entirely home-grown product, i.e. it was the Germans fleeing from Nazis that adapted for screen the hardboiled fiction?
Secondly, how come the parallels between two historical contexts (police in Nazi Germany persecuting not only the "ordinary" criminals, but also those suspected to be Jews, including some of the German filmmakers, such as Fritz Lang, and, in the New World the corrupted police in the Prohibition period, that the protagonists had to - in addition to crime perpetrators - deal with in the hardboiled fiction) that must have motivated the Germans, is of no importance according to the featured version of the article? DancingPhilosopher my talk 12:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of film-noir. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein ( talk) 23:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The screen grab of The Big Combo is the only image demonstrating the characteristic visuals of the genre included in the article, and is thus ideal for the opening. For that reason I have reverted the change of IP 108.65.152.120, a few hours ago, to an image of Humnphrey Bogart from the trailer of The Maltese Falcon. We already have two images of Bogart in the article, which given the need to represent the whole genre, is sufficient. The image of him with Lauren Bacall from The Big Sleep could be better, but Wikimedia Commons does not contain another photograph of them together from that film. There are some superior images of them from To Have and Have Not and Dark Passage which are potential substitutions. Philip Cross ( talk) 06:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
While admittedly there are dark overtones to The Dark Knight films, I don't see how a Batman film can be called a film noir. It's about a comic book character. They've got huge budgets and millions spent on special effects. They are cartoonish. Just because a protagonist has inner conflicts and lives in a claustrophobic, depressing environment, doesn't make a movie a film noir. Typically, in a film noir, the hero does not put on a rubber suit and fight crime against comic book villains. What's next, Spiderman? 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 23:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Matter of fact, Joker (Nicholson) points out several times, the noir asthetic regarding Basinger's character (Vicki Vale) and her reporting of the war in the Corto Maltese (Fictional Country) Burton's movies in general, as a matter of fact have the dark gritty atmosphere that should be regarded as noir, but Batman especially being it's American Crime action/Drama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.102.162 ( talk) 02:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Provide the source and you can add the films yourself. By the way, the Dieselpunk article could use some attention and more solid examples of what it includes. Dimadick ( talk) 07:20, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
USA Today has a good review of a new television episode which was filmed in noir style aimed at a young audience Bachcell ( talk) 04:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
For all the reasons that have been stated in past years. There are many opinions stated as facts, without references. The writing style is at best flowery and loquacious, and frequently devolves into academic pomposity. Some examples:
"Where Polanski and Towne raised noir to a black apogee by turning rearward, director Martin Scorsese and screenwriter Paul Schrader brought the noir attitude crashing into the present day with Taxi Driver (1976), a crackling, bloody-minded gloss on bicentennial America."
"A manifest affiliation with noir traditions—which, by its nature, allows different sorts of commentary on them to be inferred—can also provide the basis for explicit critiques of those traditions."
157.182.105.1 ( talk) 05:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I know this talk page isn't a forum, but I saw this and thought Wikipedians might be interested in and/or benefit from it: https://www.canvas.net/browse/bsu/tcm/courses/film-noir. -- Softlavender ( talk) 04:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
" Wikipedia is not about terms but about phenomena (and possibly concepts)", writes Ettrig. Yes, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary. However, encyclopedia entries are often helped by clarification of relevant terms. (I'm sure that this one is.) And the new version --
seems wrong to me. Rather, FN is very often but not always found in the genre of crime film (we see it in other genres too); and it's characterized by a certain kind of visual style and/or a moral ambiguousness or uncertainty. To quote this very WP article: "While many critics refer to film noir as a genre itself, others argue that it can be no such thing". -- Hoary ( talk) 12:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The Maltese Falcon to "Body of Lies": Spies, Noirs, and Trust by Robert von Hallberg, 2015, University of New Mexico Press Jodi.a.schneider ( talk) 20:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
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How to connect wifi in china Fu yuan yu 21 ( talk) 12:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
So.What now? Fu yuan yu 21 ( talk) 12:47, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
An article was recently created for film noir innovator Boris Ingster, director of Stranger on the Third Floor. This new article needs more biographical information about his studies in Russia in the 1920s, his work with Sergei Eisenstein in 1930 in France, and his 1930s screenwriting in the US. More quality sources are needed, and a non-copyrighted or fair use photo of Ingster would be good. Thanks. OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
"Bad girl movies" is a completely unsourced list of noir films. I propose that any sourced content (possibly nothing) be merged into Film noir, and the page redirected. pburka ( talk) 18:28, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 March 2022 and 10 June 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Ppprru (
article contribs). Peer reviewers:
Kyleighkimbrell,
Erikp246.
— Assignment last updated by Elyonn ( talk) 03:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Ppprru, Kyleighkimbrell, Erikp246, and Elyonn:
The following student contribution makes some good points, but there are problems with grammar, formatting, sources, and an added image that should be corrected before it is made a part of the film noir article. -- Jeremy Butler ( talk) 11:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
== Film Noirs and Disability ==
Film noirs have a deep relationship with disability no matter for the representation of the beauty, excitement, inspiring or foreshadowing the side stories. In fact, there were lots of stereotypes when looking at disability within film noirs.
=== '''Film noir’s relations with disability''' ===
From a journal “Phantom Limbs: Film Noir and the Disabled Body” [1] by Michael Davidson from the GLQ:A Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies. In many noir examples, Many disabled characters played whether a supporting roles, evil roles or the cameo role. The boy who's deaf (Dickie Moore [2]) played multiple roles in the movie “Out of Past [3]” from 1947, protecting the main character also pushing the story line. Movie “The Fallen Sparrow” [4] from 1943, the “man who limps” was the evil character perhaps got killed at the end. In “The Blur Dahlia” [5]from 1946, a disabled soldier that returned from World War II Johnny Morrison(Alan Ladd) found out his wife has been unfaithful to him which made him killed her.
Disability played an important role in film noir. From the article "Concerto for the Left Hand: Disability and the Defamiliar Body. [6]" from Journal of Modern Literature. Disability is the central point in film noir, it is very inspiring since in film noir the disabled body gives audience the same viewing pleasure as the female body.
In numerous noir films, being disabled marked as a sexual inscrutability. Film theory has focused on mantis-like features of the femme fatale characters, and most of their husband were in a disabled state. For example, In Double Indemnity (1944) Mrs. Dietrichson’s husband is on crutches; in The Lady from Shanghai (1948) Elsa Bannister’s husband wears braces and uses a cane; in Walk on the Wild Side (1962) Jo’s husband’s legs have been amputated, and he pulls himself around on a dolly [7].
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I removed "vulgar auterism" from the See also section. It's defined as "championing or reappraising filmmakers, mostly those working in horror and action genres...assessing 'unserious' artistry of popcorn cinema..." Doesn't sound like film noir to me, and the term must not be in the article or it wouldn't be in See also. -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 07:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
In the 6th paragraph of the Classic period section, Directors and the business of noir sub-section, there is this sentence: "Serving as producer, writer, director and top-billed performer, Hugo Haas made films like Pickup (1951), The Other Woman (1954) and Jacques Tourneur, The Fearmakers (1958). "Jacques Tourneur" is not a film Hugo Haas made. I assume the sentence is trying to say Jacques Tourneur made The Fearmakers in a manner simmilar to the way in which Haas made his films, but it's going to need some more words, and I don't want to be the one to add them because I really don't know exactly what the editor was trying to say. Any thoughts? -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 21:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Since the lead uses "films noir" for the plural of "film noir", I've edited the rest of the article to reflect this. -- Pete Best Beatles ( talk) 06:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)