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This, is awkward surrogate-fatherhood motif is an attempt to explain his being called "the twice-born" without invoking the mystery of a life-death-rebirth deity.
I removed this sentence for a couple of reasons. First, it presents hypothesis as fact. There could be a number of alternative reasons why the "surrogate-fatherhood motif" is so "awkward": for example, to reconcile differing local traditions. Second, the l-d-r-d thing is already mentioned twice: in ==Modern Interpretations== and in Categories. Bacchiad 20:00, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)nmkmnhjjnjgh
This is partying!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.63.167 ( talk) 00:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely I could have. Alexander 007 04:46, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well seeing as part of the point of Dionysus was that he was ambiguously both masculine and feminine (long haired in feminine style dress) I think commenting that he's "too gay" - at least in what I presume your narrow minded view of "too gay" to be - is a bit obtuse. However that said a greek depiction would probably be a good idea. Orias 09:43, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
I think someone who knows a little more about it than I should talk about the Orphic tradition of eating bread as the symbolic flesh of Dionysus, and drinking wine as his symbolic blood.
There is no source at all for this discussion of different sects in Hellenic Neopaganism. Is this someone's first-hand reporting? Jkelly 03:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like to take issue with what appears to be a gross simplification in terms of dubbing Dionysus "The god of wine". This is one aspect of a god which is, effectively, the god of the irrational. As such wine is certainly an aspect of it - wine intoxicates, hence irrational - describing him as simply a god of wine ignores the far more animalistic and instinctual nature of Dionysus. The Bacchic cults did not induce women to run through woods tearing apart animals because they'd had slightly too much sherry. Orias 09:49, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
I'd also 2nd this and suggest that Bacchus be used to better explain how under the Romans Dionysus lost a considerable amount of his complexity and mystery. There is no seperate listing for Bacchus in en.wikipedia.org at this time it redirects indirectly into this page. Cmcollins ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't he also a god for something else besides wine? I think I remember that it was mentioned else where I just can't remember at the moment someone please inform me if I'm wrong ( Grath Longfletch 20:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
We \in Bulgaria\ have studied, that Dionysus wasn't "The god of wine" of the Thracians, but their major God - "The god of the sun"!!! It's The Greeks who started worshiping him as "The god of wine"! Haven't you heard that??? Please, comment on this topic :) I'm sure that we should all research more :) ( 82.199.193.217 22:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)yavor)
This is false. Though he was allways seen as being a late adition, never quite fitting in, evidence of his worship shows him at least as old as all other greek gods.
I think it should be noted, the possibility that Paul was using Hellenistic Metaphoar when using these well known terms. Rather then inspiring Christianity, can there also be room for these allusions being explanitory instead? -- IdeArchos 16:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Is possible that Nysa, the birth-city of Dionysus was the city Kanesh or Nesa in Eastern Anatolia? Is possible that the etymology of name "Dionysus" is "Deus (the) Nesian" i.e "God the Hittite"?
Note: The real name of the indoeuropean Hittites was "Nesites" or Nesians.
-- IonnKorr 17:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually my question is about the enunciation, but that is usually specified along with the pronunciation. Anyone know if it's "dee oh NEE sus" or "dee OH nee sus" (or possibly something else I guess). — Donama 06:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The following text was added today, but it wasn't properly formatted: therefore it didn't appear in the article though it did destroy the link to footnote 7. I have, for the present, reverted.
The material may be useful, and could be added to footnote 7, but perhaps the editor would explain the initial words "Wax Tokens of Libido, Whitney Davis". Are they a reference to a book, or what? Also, what is the XX in the other reference? And rew D alby 10:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that there are a lot of "ors" in this article. I mean, granted these things were written a veerrry long time ago and by diferent cultures and in all of these stories have a counterpart, but it seems like just about everything written in this wikiarticle about Dionysus states that "either this or this happened" and nothing seems to be confirmed as is... or was.... or would be... DrakeKobra 20:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The following epithet is purported to be discussed in Jameson, in "The Asexuality of Dionysus." Masks of Dionysus. Ed. Thomas H. Carpenter and Christopher A. Faraone. Ithaca: Cornell UP, 1993. ISBN 0-8014-8062-0. 44-64: "Dionysus Khoiropsalas, for which "cunt-plucker" has been suggested, of Sicyon." This term, which doesn't appear in any literature at JSTOR, is obscure enough to warrant a reference. -- Wetman 04:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some large pixellated (sp?) goatse-ish picture in the "Worship" section - I'm not sure when this happened or how to revert that, but could someone address that? -- Elro 01:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no "possessed by the saint" section in the Christianity article, and it is not a feature of Christianity I have ever heard of.
The Anastenaria are not only undocumented (per source) in "early Christianity", it is not even a characteristically Greek custom, let alone characteristically Christian. This is all according to the cited source, which places it strictly within small communities of Thracian refugees dating from the Balkan wars. As phrased, it's an extremely misleading passage not supported by the source in its breadth. If this belongs in the article at all -- and it probably does -- it should be in a section on modern Dionysian survivals. "Worship" is plainly the wrong place. Whatever these people think they're doing, they to not believe themselves to be worshiping Dionysus even if the Church condemns the practice as Dionysian in origin. (And as even the source states, there's no evidence of any such rite in antiquity, so this could easily be an error all around.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is written as if the issue was not in doubt, and very much needs balance.
Some of the material is very obscure. Although I can draw inferences as well as the next professional logician, I confess to being no classicist, so could someone please tell me what lines 3.690-691 have to do with this? A complaint about the length of a tale doesn't seem particularly apt. Perhaps Latin scholars can see parallels where the rest of us can't, but if so it needs to be explicated. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Either delete it or re-write it - for a start Jesus wasn't born in a cave, to make out Dionysus was a virgin birth is really trying to twist the birth story, claims like "He stands between life and death, man and god, male and female." aren't referenced and stretching it for a parallel, since when was Jesus 'sexually ambiguous.' - there's no paralel here at all! claims like "depicted either nude or fully clothed." are also stretching it - how else are we expecting him to be depicted (and when did Jesus go around nude? He may have gone around fully clothed but then so do I and I'm not ripped off from Dionysus!) The article says Dionysus is the god of wine, so why does the parallels list say Dionysus was a death god? Jesus wasn't a sailor. "He was not an Olympian at first." and the fact Jesus wasn't an Olympian too says what? "In his worship, followers would consume human flesh, held to represent the god himself." and the evidence for this is? Finally the reference for Dionysus on a cross goes to an amulet which actually post-dates Christianity. Can we find some more credible sources to reference it to? Hardly any scholar thinks Christianity was ripped off from Dionysus yet the article does not give this impression —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.189.76 ( talk) 13:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, this section is really biased-sounding and a lot like that that Zeitgeist web movie. I'm agnostic (so, no bias here), and to me many of the comparisons are really reaching. I'd knock out probably 2/3 or more of them. Maybe there are parallels, but please be more scholarly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.207.55.154 ( talk) 22:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Whoever finds sources might add some of these claims (and the reference) back to the article:
Some seem to be fantasy, some may have ancient sources telling us so.-- Flammingo Hey 01:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Currently, the section is completely biased and vague. It only mentions in the first line how there are suggested parallels, then the rest of the section is set out to disprove Dionysus turning water to wine (which by the way, it doesn't matter if he actually did, it's the fact that the myth exists is important. you can find people who've "proven" that jesus never actually did it either, yet the fact that both had the same myth attributed to them is important). it mentions nothing about both being dying god archtypes and other parlalles. It needs some serious re-working 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Dionysos is claimed a Thracian god in Thracians page. And on Dyonisos page all is wordy and fuzzy. I remember from some turkish mithologists that D. was born in way East, ie current Iran into some people of grape vine agriculture and wine culture and traveled West, cult-entertaining the youth. 67.86.55.243 09:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC) wikici
From the sea voyage story, this had been tagged as unclear:Others say that Dionysus came on board after these sailors, having leapt ashore, captured him, stripped him of his possessions, and tied him with ropes they had almost succeeded. I agree, not only need some of the last words to be removed, but also there should be a quote for this, which would be easy to find (I just believe this second version was added later and would rather go for just one)-- Flammingo Hey 10:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Although I kept the word 'madness' in my edit of today, I wonder if the word 'ecstasy' would be better. Myrvin ( talk) 18:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Nysa could be the Paggaion Mountain (Homeric name: Nysa - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaion_Hills). As for the dionysian festival, they are still intact in Greece. For example there is a festival called "Arapis" in Nikisiani (Paggaio municipality, Kavala) that many believe is a dionysian festival that survived through the christianization of the festival. You can see it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_twl5oG2nE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.104.161 ( talk) 17:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I moved this, tagged for a citation by someone, here:
I've never seen a birthdate for any Greek god, but then I've never seen their driver's licenses either...-- Wetman ( talk) 07:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just seen the Christian parallels discussion. No doubt these claims were poorly referenced and fuzzily argued but that is not how it has to be. In fact there is no real doubt that the Dionysus mystery religion, like the other mystery religions featuring a harrowing of Hell, was a precursor of Christianity. Nor should this be a problem for Christians. I will have to find the reference (it is discussed in Arthur Evans' God of Ecstasy but there was an early Chrisitian Jesus play overtly based on Euripedes' Bacchae. Meanwhile I refer offended Christians to the gospel of John where Jesus exapnds on the subject of how he is the vine etc.
Modern day Dionysus worship is shown perjoratively, btw, in Donna Tart's modern classic A Secret History I'll add that to the page; and maybe something about Christian connections. Jeremy ( talk) 02:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem also is that a lot of info that was sourced was removed from the section for no reason on July 17 by SkreeHunter. I would like to add some (not all) of it back. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 17:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph beginning "Walt Disney" re-introduces the erroneous idea that 'Bacchus' was the Roman name for 'Dionysus'. This confusion was removed from the earlier versions of this article. Also, apart from calling the hero 'Hercules' instead of 'Heracles', didn't the series use the Greek names for the gods? The paragraph needs rewriting. Myrvin ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the jpg image Qingdao beer.jpg -- should the name of the artist sculptor be referenced. I selected the detail link of the image, but I could not find the name of the sculptor listed. My understanding is that any reproduction of artwork should indicate the artist, as well as the medium and the size and date of the work. tesseract501 15 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.190.180 ( talk) 04:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, (hicc!) halelujaaa! Said: Rursus ( ☻) 12:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I remember reading something from Tom Robbins suggesting that dionysus was a god of mushrooms before he was the god of wine. I know he is a fictional writer but he seems to know his stuff. Maybe someone with more experience on the subject can chime in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.16.118 ( talk) 22:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the sentence: "Diodorus' sources equivocally identified the mother as Demeter". Does 'equivocally' here mean doubtfully? I tried chasing down the Diodorus reference to no avail. Perhaps it should be 'equally'; or maybe even "unequivocally". Myrvin ( talk) 10:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
In the second paragraph, it says that Dionysus was also known as Bacchus. This could be construed to mean that the Greeks also called him Bacchus. Since Bacchus is the Roman name, can this be corrected? Ykerzner ( talk) 17:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps more should be said on Kerenyi's contributions, such as his interpretaion of Dionysus as the god of 'zoe', the concept of indestructible life without limitations. And also Herekleitos' identification of Hades with Dionysus, a relation which Kerenyi sheds light on in 'Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life' and in 'Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter'. Kerenyi suggests this relation was pivotal in the Elusinian mysteries, and refers to the underworld god as 'subterranean Dionysus'. I'm not sure where to add the info - any ideas? -- Kavita9 ( talk) 02:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, unrelated to Kerenyi, I added a line about the fictional god Elua from Kushiel's Legacy after the mention of other Dionysus-inspired literature, whom I think is worthy of inclusion because of his associated traits, but I see they were removed. Does anyone have strong objections?
Under the 'Modern Views' section I would also like to add that Jim Morrison, lead singer of The Doors, found the god Dionysus to be an inspiration, and some of his lyrics contain references to Dionysian mythology.
Actually the Modern Views section looks like it needs to be cleaned up & reordered under subheadings as there's a lot of stuff there. Maybe Dionysus in Literature, Dionysus and Philosophy, etc. -- Kavita9 ( talk) 05:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
"Because of their acts the women are banished from Thebes (the ancient Greeks did not have an equivalent of the "innocent by reason of insanity" plea), and thus Dionysus has his revenge." The italicised bit about the insanity plea: is this particularly relevant? If it is not (and I'm no authority) then it just breaks up the flow of the sentence. ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.119.77 ( talk) 19:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
This sculpture commissioned to advertise the 100th anniversary of Qingdao Beer portrays a virile beaded male, who is unlike any classical representation of Dionysus, who, it is scarcely necessary to add, is not connected with beer anywhere but in this company promo, which is unsuited to illustrate Dionysus in an encyclopedia. The classical sculptures of Dionysus that were deleted to make way for this have been returned to the article.-- Wetman ( talk) 00:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
There are way too many pictures within the article itself, and this is disrupting the flow and order of the sections. The main thing is that they are all, for the most part, just random images of Dionysisus with no real relation to where they are placed in the article. I'm going to move some to an image gallery at the bottom of the page. Feel free to edit this and add some of the images back to the main article, but when doing so, try to keep in mind their relevance to that section of the article and how a bunch of huge pictures can mess up the formatting of an article page. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 05:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The section on alleged ties between Christianity and Dionysus is quite weak and one-sided. Little is said about the arguments against this view. Furthermore, couldn't views of more mainstream scholars than Mr. Larson be cited? -- Killerwasp 18:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)--
I agree. There is little evidence. Read the whole article. Does it really look like Jesus and Dionysus are the same? This should be deleted unless better evidence can be found. It certainly is a minority view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.100.20 ( talk) 23:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Uhmm, there are actually tons of academic writings comparing the two and using Google search results to counter this fact is completely illogical. If one actually did academic research and looked in libraries and read up on comparative mythology you would see this. While I agree, a more detailed account of scholars opposing this view should be added to the section, it is up to you to find those sources and include them in the article. As it stands, the section and information should not be deleted (perhaps edited down). Since the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory and find it "ridiculous". 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed this in the article, and clicked the link. The website makes no mention of Dionysos dying on the cross (in relation to Jesus). It only makes a comparison between both dying then being reborn again. I'm going to remove it (it is/was reference 27), since it seems completely out there and there is no references to back it up (other than this Wikipedia article). Feel free to add back if you can find a reliable source. -- Disinclination ( talk) 22:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote is found close to the end of the "Worship" section:
Walter Burkert relates, "Quite frequently he is NOT portrayed with bull horns, Tyla, you are WRONG you stupid hoe.... and in Kyzikos he has a tauromorphic image,"
I find it rather doubtful that an academic scholar would have said something like this. Vandalism alert.
72.77.102.232 ( talk) 18:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to disagree with the current state of the "Suggested Parallels with Christianity" section and the edits done by SkreeHunter on July 17. He removed a large amount of sourced information. Even if he personally found the information as stretching, the fact was that it was sourced and actual published scholars stating such-and-such, not random users, therefore the info met Wiki's guidelines for inclusion and notability. They should not have been removed.
Additionally, the section gives absolutely no information on parallels between the two, which whether people want to admit it or not, do exist. For one, there's no mention how both represent the dying god archetype found throughout the world's mythology.
All the section currently contains is one sentence saying that parallels have been suggested, but then does not expand on what these parallels are. The rest of the section is spent disproving a Dionysian myth of turning water to wine. First, it's the simple fact that both Dionysus and Jesus had a water to wine myth associated with them that's important, not if if actually happened. If you never believed in Dionysus, then of course he didn't do it. You can find non-christian scholars that have "proved" Jesus never turned water into wine. Both are "mythological" figures, both have a similar myth.
This section seriously needs expansion, and I would like permission to revert some (not all) of SkreeHunter's. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 17:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I tried to restore some semblance of information and order to the section, with proper citation.
I'll repeat: there are tons of academic writing comparing the two, and as long as the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please excuse the tone of that section which takes a comparison against Jesus, surely it's slightly POV? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the problem with this line is that this side of the argument is summed up in a simple and vague sentence. More should be included from the source cited there.
it's not "pov", it's just badly researched and badly referenced. "Such theories" is just lazy. Pointing out parallels isn't a "theory", it's just an observation. It's the interpretations of such parallels that are theories to be criticized.
Scholars very much go out of their way to trace parallels between the mythology of Dionysos and Christ (not the historical Jesus, that's beside the point, but the miracle stories in the gospels and the theology as it evolves over the early centuries AD). One of the links cited for the supposed "detracting" of "such theories" in fact references an essay that claims that Dionysian monotheism and Christian monotheism existed in direct competition in Cyprus during the 4th century. It doesn't get any more obvious than this. The historical Jesus had very little (read: nothing) to do with various competing brands of monotheism practiced in 4th century Cyprus.
You are perfectly right in saying that "NPOV states to present the arguments in proportion to the material out there". There is significant material researching such parallels. If you can cite references of an equally scholarly quality that "detract" from such research, you are very welcome to add them. -- dab (𒁳) 14:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
This paragraph
has been repeatedly restored by an anonymous editor [1] The paragraph is (a) not based on quotable sources (two urls, one at www.bsw.org, the other at your.sydneyanglicans.net. and (b) they are beside the point, as they criticize something that isn't even proposed here (the " Jesus myth theory", or other approaches that "oppose Christianity as grounded in history". This is the Dionysus article, not the Christianity article, nor the Jesus Christ article. If the Jesus Christ article were to go off on lengthy tangents of how the Christ myth is extremely parallel to the Dionysus myth, such criticism would be adequate, as the topic of Jesus Christ has a wider notability than just comparative mythology. The same discussion is perfectly WP:DUE in a "comparative mythology" section in the Dionysus article.
If the anonymous editor keeps restoring this paragraph without discussion, I will just semiprotect the article. -- dab (𒁳) 14:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
In Other stories, under Lycurgus, the article says "thinking he was a patch of poison ivy, a plant holy to Dionysus". But in the Poison Ivy article it says "Poison ivy and its relatives are virtually unknown in Europe". Perchloric ( talk) 02:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
We have an enthusiast who hopes for an origin in Thrace, based on "Thracian mythology"— which hasn't survived in fact, and that "some say he was of Greek origin". The following web blog was adduced to press the case: http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/thracian-gods.htm
Two books are adduced as citations: one, Thomas McEvilley, The Shape of Ancient Thought, discounts the Thracian origin, and the other, Reginald Pepys Winnington-Ingram, Sophocles: an interpretation, actually merely notes that Herodotus identified Thracian deities as Ares, Dionysus and Artemis (by interpretatio graeca).
Can we get a more balanced view of the "Thracian" origin of Dionysus?-- Wetman ( talk) 21:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Fritz Grafs article on Dionysus from the dictionary of demons and deities in the bible (Brill 1999) might be of some use here
"Dionysos, the Greek god of ecstasy, bears a name of uncertain etymology, although resembling the usual Greek types of anthroponyms (e.g. Dio-doros, “gift from Zeus”). Accordingly, ancient authors agree to see the name of Zeus (gen. Διός) in the first half; some understood -νυσος as a foreign word for son (“Son of Zeus”), others derived it from the mythical place of his upbringing, Nysa (“Zeus from Nysa”). These etymologies are linguistically valueless, but reflect the god’s status with regard to Zeus, whom mythology makes his father. At the same time, Greek myth regularly tells of Dionysos’ arrival from abroad, especially from those foreign places, where Nysa was located (Stephanus Byz. gives a list of ten places, from Asia Minor to Ethiopia and India). By reading these myths historically, insisting on Dionysos’ non-Gk characteristics, and pointing out his absence from Homer, modern historians of religion, from N. Fréret and E. Rohde to M. P. Nilsson theorized that Dyonysos was a god of foreign origin and had arrived from Thrace or Phrygia (or from both) during the Archaic age (see McGinty 1978); others protested, notably Meuli (1975), Otto (1933) and Kerényi (1976). The dispute has been settled by the decipherment of the Mycenaean (so called Linear B) documents: like other later Olympians, Dionysos is present in the pantheon of Mycenaean Greece, and a recent text from Mycenaean Chania in Crete is witness to a cult together with Zeus (Hallager 1992). Toorn, K. v. d., Becking, B., & Horst, P. W. v. d. (1999). Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible DDD (2nd extensively rev. ed.) (252). Leiden; Boston; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Brill; Eerdmans."
..and of course Ottos Dionysus..if dionysus had any 'thracian' connections other than sabazios those must have been really old (but do see Otto) but im not sure how popular the ideas of a pregreek thracian substratum are nowadays (Jan Best comes to mind).. 87.202.140.189 ( talk) 01:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Ok then lets just say, in the meantime, that his origins are not certain, but mention that he could have been either thracian or greek, saying that some historians are divided on the issue - some thinking he is thracian and some thinking he is greek; until we find more sources that can shed more light on the issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.0.242 ( talk) 19:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
'but rather say something about the nature of the god as one who invades from outside ' indeed that was Otto's point already back then... 87.202.156.68 ( talk) 10:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Lots of etymology here, and lots of mythology - but has anyone noticed the complete absence of a section on his cults? We'd better write one, yes? Haploidavey ( talk) 13:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
"In some variants, he had her crown put into the heavens as the constellation Corona; in others, he descended into Hades to restore her to the gods on Olympus. Another different account claims Dionysus ordered Theseus to abandon Ariadne on the island of Naxos for he had seen her as Theseus carried her onto the ship and had decided to marry her."
What are the sources for these variations?
ICE77 ( talk) 07:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Dionysos = Zeus (Dios) of Nysa (Caria) Böri ( talk) 13:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
"Nysa" itself is to be explained, as the name is clearly just derived from the name of Dionysos. That is, your etymology is really a folk etymology which produced the toponym "Nysa" (which notably is nowhere in particular, it doesn't matter where exactly but always somewhere extremely remote). Etymologists since the 1980s have come up with a valid explanation, beginning with the careful analysis that of the names attested, the Dienusos forms are the most archaic, so that the stems that need to be etymologized are die- and nus-. -- dab (𒁳) 14:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I cannot find any reference that backs up the claim that Nisah and Nisam mean bliss in Sanskrit. Ananda means bliss in Sanskrit. Nisha (or Nisah, if there is a marker on the s, and other forms of this word) mean night according to the Sanskrit dictionary. Could someone verify this or delete it? Thanks. Olav Smith ( talk) 06:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
This is in response to the person who said he wasn't. Dionysus eventually replaced Hestia, who willing gave her spot thus unbalancing the number of males and females.
check it out for yourself http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/olympians.html http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Dionysus_the_only_man_to_have_his_throne_on_the_womens_side_of_the_throne_room http://www.angelfire.com/planet/mythguide/dionysus.html
those are the top 3 google results — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.241.90 ( talk) 12:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Afak Dionysos means the twice borne one. Originally he was called Zagreus and died (burning to ashes only his heart remained) but because Zeus loved his son so much he implanted the heart in his leg and this way Dionysos was brought back to live after some time. I know it sounds strange, but hey, thats greek mythology. Athene fe. was borne out of the head of Zeus etc. -- 77.116.246.13 ( talk) 03:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
At present we've got a persistent IP editor adding unsourced content to this and another article. Feel free to revert and block on site, no additional warnings required. If the editor persists in IP hopping, then I'll protect the article, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided. Rklawton ( talk) 02:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
We have reports like from Voltaire French philosopher of similarities between Moses and Dionysis, for example Dionysis being discovered in a basket in a river, and causing the Red sea to part for his followers. So now we have the situation of some saying that some of the events in the life of Moses was taken from the Dionysius myth or vice versa. Now Moses probably did exist and probably did lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan (now Israel), but him parting the red sea and floating around in the river Nile are a bit hard to believe. The most likely situation is that these events were taken from Orphic myths around about 5 th century BCE, when the Exodus story was written. The purpose was to give Moses mythic or supernatural credibility to add weight to the newly formed Hebrew religion. — Preceding
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Scholars universally reject this ridiculous idea. Dionysus was not born of a virgin, he was conceived by Zeus and Semele. He was not a life death rebirth deity. He did not turn water into wine, but rather left jars outside overnight, and wine filled them up in the morning. PLEASE fix that chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.251.243 ( talk) 01:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
No offense, but saying "Scholars universally reject this ridiculous idea" is completely wrong, as there are tons of academic writing comparing the two, and as long as the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I think you missed another comparison altogether. I came her to find out who Bacchus was (again -- I vaguely remember his name from my Latin and English classes way back in high school lol) because Adam Clarke (who wrote a commentary on the Bible) said the Greeks borrowed much from the story of Moses to create Bacchus. If your interested on his take of how it relates to Christianity (and Judaism) you can find it in his discussion of Moses from Exo. 4:18. It brings a different kind of relationship to the topic that, so far, hasn't been addressed. His contention is the Greeks took their myth from the story of Moses. (The timing matches -- at least, according to the article in Wiki.) 98.115.150.131 ( talk) 14:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The article is really out of date on this subject and even contradicts itself. It says several scholars dispute and then later few scholars dispute. What is actually being taught in Classics in the 21st century is that many pagan cults changed in reaction to the spread of Christianity, including the cult of Dionysus. The article needs to be updated from theories that were popular with some scholars 50 years ago. We have recovered many more ancient texts since then, and more archaeological evidence. 96.56.68.195 ( talk) 14:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This, is awkward surrogate-fatherhood motif is an attempt to explain his being called "the twice-born" without invoking the mystery of a life-death-rebirth deity.
I removed this sentence for a couple of reasons. First, it presents hypothesis as fact. There could be a number of alternative reasons why the "surrogate-fatherhood motif" is so "awkward": for example, to reconcile differing local traditions. Second, the l-d-r-d thing is already mentioned twice: in ==Modern Interpretations== and in Categories. Bacchiad 20:00, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)nmkmnhjjnjgh
This is partying!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.63.167 ( talk) 00:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely I could have. Alexander 007 04:46, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well seeing as part of the point of Dionysus was that he was ambiguously both masculine and feminine (long haired in feminine style dress) I think commenting that he's "too gay" - at least in what I presume your narrow minded view of "too gay" to be - is a bit obtuse. However that said a greek depiction would probably be a good idea. Orias 09:43, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
I think someone who knows a little more about it than I should talk about the Orphic tradition of eating bread as the symbolic flesh of Dionysus, and drinking wine as his symbolic blood.
There is no source at all for this discussion of different sects in Hellenic Neopaganism. Is this someone's first-hand reporting? Jkelly 03:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like to take issue with what appears to be a gross simplification in terms of dubbing Dionysus "The god of wine". This is one aspect of a god which is, effectively, the god of the irrational. As such wine is certainly an aspect of it - wine intoxicates, hence irrational - describing him as simply a god of wine ignores the far more animalistic and instinctual nature of Dionysus. The Bacchic cults did not induce women to run through woods tearing apart animals because they'd had slightly too much sherry. Orias 09:49, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
I'd also 2nd this and suggest that Bacchus be used to better explain how under the Romans Dionysus lost a considerable amount of his complexity and mystery. There is no seperate listing for Bacchus in en.wikipedia.org at this time it redirects indirectly into this page. Cmcollins ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't he also a god for something else besides wine? I think I remember that it was mentioned else where I just can't remember at the moment someone please inform me if I'm wrong ( Grath Longfletch 20:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
We \in Bulgaria\ have studied, that Dionysus wasn't "The god of wine" of the Thracians, but their major God - "The god of the sun"!!! It's The Greeks who started worshiping him as "The god of wine"! Haven't you heard that??? Please, comment on this topic :) I'm sure that we should all research more :) ( 82.199.193.217 22:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)yavor)
This is false. Though he was allways seen as being a late adition, never quite fitting in, evidence of his worship shows him at least as old as all other greek gods.
I think it should be noted, the possibility that Paul was using Hellenistic Metaphoar when using these well known terms. Rather then inspiring Christianity, can there also be room for these allusions being explanitory instead? -- IdeArchos 16:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Is possible that Nysa, the birth-city of Dionysus was the city Kanesh or Nesa in Eastern Anatolia? Is possible that the etymology of name "Dionysus" is "Deus (the) Nesian" i.e "God the Hittite"?
Note: The real name of the indoeuropean Hittites was "Nesites" or Nesians.
-- IonnKorr 17:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually my question is about the enunciation, but that is usually specified along with the pronunciation. Anyone know if it's "dee oh NEE sus" or "dee OH nee sus" (or possibly something else I guess). — Donama 06:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The following text was added today, but it wasn't properly formatted: therefore it didn't appear in the article though it did destroy the link to footnote 7. I have, for the present, reverted.
The material may be useful, and could be added to footnote 7, but perhaps the editor would explain the initial words "Wax Tokens of Libido, Whitney Davis". Are they a reference to a book, or what? Also, what is the XX in the other reference? And rew D alby 10:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that there are a lot of "ors" in this article. I mean, granted these things were written a veerrry long time ago and by diferent cultures and in all of these stories have a counterpart, but it seems like just about everything written in this wikiarticle about Dionysus states that "either this or this happened" and nothing seems to be confirmed as is... or was.... or would be... DrakeKobra 20:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The following epithet is purported to be discussed in Jameson, in "The Asexuality of Dionysus." Masks of Dionysus. Ed. Thomas H. Carpenter and Christopher A. Faraone. Ithaca: Cornell UP, 1993. ISBN 0-8014-8062-0. 44-64: "Dionysus Khoiropsalas, for which "cunt-plucker" has been suggested, of Sicyon." This term, which doesn't appear in any literature at JSTOR, is obscure enough to warrant a reference. -- Wetman 04:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some large pixellated (sp?) goatse-ish picture in the "Worship" section - I'm not sure when this happened or how to revert that, but could someone address that? -- Elro 01:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no "possessed by the saint" section in the Christianity article, and it is not a feature of Christianity I have ever heard of.
The Anastenaria are not only undocumented (per source) in "early Christianity", it is not even a characteristically Greek custom, let alone characteristically Christian. This is all according to the cited source, which places it strictly within small communities of Thracian refugees dating from the Balkan wars. As phrased, it's an extremely misleading passage not supported by the source in its breadth. If this belongs in the article at all -- and it probably does -- it should be in a section on modern Dionysian survivals. "Worship" is plainly the wrong place. Whatever these people think they're doing, they to not believe themselves to be worshiping Dionysus even if the Church condemns the practice as Dionysian in origin. (And as even the source states, there's no evidence of any such rite in antiquity, so this could easily be an error all around.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is written as if the issue was not in doubt, and very much needs balance.
Some of the material is very obscure. Although I can draw inferences as well as the next professional logician, I confess to being no classicist, so could someone please tell me what lines 3.690-691 have to do with this? A complaint about the length of a tale doesn't seem particularly apt. Perhaps Latin scholars can see parallels where the rest of us can't, but if so it needs to be explicated. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Either delete it or re-write it - for a start Jesus wasn't born in a cave, to make out Dionysus was a virgin birth is really trying to twist the birth story, claims like "He stands between life and death, man and god, male and female." aren't referenced and stretching it for a parallel, since when was Jesus 'sexually ambiguous.' - there's no paralel here at all! claims like "depicted either nude or fully clothed." are also stretching it - how else are we expecting him to be depicted (and when did Jesus go around nude? He may have gone around fully clothed but then so do I and I'm not ripped off from Dionysus!) The article says Dionysus is the god of wine, so why does the parallels list say Dionysus was a death god? Jesus wasn't a sailor. "He was not an Olympian at first." and the fact Jesus wasn't an Olympian too says what? "In his worship, followers would consume human flesh, held to represent the god himself." and the evidence for this is? Finally the reference for Dionysus on a cross goes to an amulet which actually post-dates Christianity. Can we find some more credible sources to reference it to? Hardly any scholar thinks Christianity was ripped off from Dionysus yet the article does not give this impression —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.189.76 ( talk) 13:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, this section is really biased-sounding and a lot like that that Zeitgeist web movie. I'm agnostic (so, no bias here), and to me many of the comparisons are really reaching. I'd knock out probably 2/3 or more of them. Maybe there are parallels, but please be more scholarly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.207.55.154 ( talk) 22:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Whoever finds sources might add some of these claims (and the reference) back to the article:
Some seem to be fantasy, some may have ancient sources telling us so.-- Flammingo Hey 01:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Currently, the section is completely biased and vague. It only mentions in the first line how there are suggested parallels, then the rest of the section is set out to disprove Dionysus turning water to wine (which by the way, it doesn't matter if he actually did, it's the fact that the myth exists is important. you can find people who've "proven" that jesus never actually did it either, yet the fact that both had the same myth attributed to them is important). it mentions nothing about both being dying god archtypes and other parlalles. It needs some serious re-working 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Dionysos is claimed a Thracian god in Thracians page. And on Dyonisos page all is wordy and fuzzy. I remember from some turkish mithologists that D. was born in way East, ie current Iran into some people of grape vine agriculture and wine culture and traveled West, cult-entertaining the youth. 67.86.55.243 09:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC) wikici
From the sea voyage story, this had been tagged as unclear:Others say that Dionysus came on board after these sailors, having leapt ashore, captured him, stripped him of his possessions, and tied him with ropes they had almost succeeded. I agree, not only need some of the last words to be removed, but also there should be a quote for this, which would be easy to find (I just believe this second version was added later and would rather go for just one)-- Flammingo Hey 10:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Although I kept the word 'madness' in my edit of today, I wonder if the word 'ecstasy' would be better. Myrvin ( talk) 18:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Nysa could be the Paggaion Mountain (Homeric name: Nysa - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaion_Hills). As for the dionysian festival, they are still intact in Greece. For example there is a festival called "Arapis" in Nikisiani (Paggaio municipality, Kavala) that many believe is a dionysian festival that survived through the christianization of the festival. You can see it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_twl5oG2nE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.104.161 ( talk) 17:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I moved this, tagged for a citation by someone, here:
I've never seen a birthdate for any Greek god, but then I've never seen their driver's licenses either...-- Wetman ( talk) 07:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just seen the Christian parallels discussion. No doubt these claims were poorly referenced and fuzzily argued but that is not how it has to be. In fact there is no real doubt that the Dionysus mystery religion, like the other mystery religions featuring a harrowing of Hell, was a precursor of Christianity. Nor should this be a problem for Christians. I will have to find the reference (it is discussed in Arthur Evans' God of Ecstasy but there was an early Chrisitian Jesus play overtly based on Euripedes' Bacchae. Meanwhile I refer offended Christians to the gospel of John where Jesus exapnds on the subject of how he is the vine etc.
Modern day Dionysus worship is shown perjoratively, btw, in Donna Tart's modern classic A Secret History I'll add that to the page; and maybe something about Christian connections. Jeremy ( talk) 02:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem also is that a lot of info that was sourced was removed from the section for no reason on July 17 by SkreeHunter. I would like to add some (not all) of it back. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 17:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph beginning "Walt Disney" re-introduces the erroneous idea that 'Bacchus' was the Roman name for 'Dionysus'. This confusion was removed from the earlier versions of this article. Also, apart from calling the hero 'Hercules' instead of 'Heracles', didn't the series use the Greek names for the gods? The paragraph needs rewriting. Myrvin ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the jpg image Qingdao beer.jpg -- should the name of the artist sculptor be referenced. I selected the detail link of the image, but I could not find the name of the sculptor listed. My understanding is that any reproduction of artwork should indicate the artist, as well as the medium and the size and date of the work. tesseract501 15 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.190.180 ( talk) 04:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, (hicc!) halelujaaa! Said: Rursus ( ☻) 12:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I remember reading something from Tom Robbins suggesting that dionysus was a god of mushrooms before he was the god of wine. I know he is a fictional writer but he seems to know his stuff. Maybe someone with more experience on the subject can chime in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.16.118 ( talk) 22:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the sentence: "Diodorus' sources equivocally identified the mother as Demeter". Does 'equivocally' here mean doubtfully? I tried chasing down the Diodorus reference to no avail. Perhaps it should be 'equally'; or maybe even "unequivocally". Myrvin ( talk) 10:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
In the second paragraph, it says that Dionysus was also known as Bacchus. This could be construed to mean that the Greeks also called him Bacchus. Since Bacchus is the Roman name, can this be corrected? Ykerzner ( talk) 17:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps more should be said on Kerenyi's contributions, such as his interpretaion of Dionysus as the god of 'zoe', the concept of indestructible life without limitations. And also Herekleitos' identification of Hades with Dionysus, a relation which Kerenyi sheds light on in 'Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life' and in 'Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter'. Kerenyi suggests this relation was pivotal in the Elusinian mysteries, and refers to the underworld god as 'subterranean Dionysus'. I'm not sure where to add the info - any ideas? -- Kavita9 ( talk) 02:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, unrelated to Kerenyi, I added a line about the fictional god Elua from Kushiel's Legacy after the mention of other Dionysus-inspired literature, whom I think is worthy of inclusion because of his associated traits, but I see they were removed. Does anyone have strong objections?
Under the 'Modern Views' section I would also like to add that Jim Morrison, lead singer of The Doors, found the god Dionysus to be an inspiration, and some of his lyrics contain references to Dionysian mythology.
Actually the Modern Views section looks like it needs to be cleaned up & reordered under subheadings as there's a lot of stuff there. Maybe Dionysus in Literature, Dionysus and Philosophy, etc. -- Kavita9 ( talk) 05:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
"Because of their acts the women are banished from Thebes (the ancient Greeks did not have an equivalent of the "innocent by reason of insanity" plea), and thus Dionysus has his revenge." The italicised bit about the insanity plea: is this particularly relevant? If it is not (and I'm no authority) then it just breaks up the flow of the sentence. ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.119.77 ( talk) 19:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
This sculpture commissioned to advertise the 100th anniversary of Qingdao Beer portrays a virile beaded male, who is unlike any classical representation of Dionysus, who, it is scarcely necessary to add, is not connected with beer anywhere but in this company promo, which is unsuited to illustrate Dionysus in an encyclopedia. The classical sculptures of Dionysus that were deleted to make way for this have been returned to the article.-- Wetman ( talk) 00:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
There are way too many pictures within the article itself, and this is disrupting the flow and order of the sections. The main thing is that they are all, for the most part, just random images of Dionysisus with no real relation to where they are placed in the article. I'm going to move some to an image gallery at the bottom of the page. Feel free to edit this and add some of the images back to the main article, but when doing so, try to keep in mind their relevance to that section of the article and how a bunch of huge pictures can mess up the formatting of an article page. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 05:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The section on alleged ties between Christianity and Dionysus is quite weak and one-sided. Little is said about the arguments against this view. Furthermore, couldn't views of more mainstream scholars than Mr. Larson be cited? -- Killerwasp 18:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)--
I agree. There is little evidence. Read the whole article. Does it really look like Jesus and Dionysus are the same? This should be deleted unless better evidence can be found. It certainly is a minority view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.100.20 ( talk) 23:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Uhmm, there are actually tons of academic writings comparing the two and using Google search results to counter this fact is completely illogical. If one actually did academic research and looked in libraries and read up on comparative mythology you would see this. While I agree, a more detailed account of scholars opposing this view should be added to the section, it is up to you to find those sources and include them in the article. As it stands, the section and information should not be deleted (perhaps edited down). Since the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory and find it "ridiculous". 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed this in the article, and clicked the link. The website makes no mention of Dionysos dying on the cross (in relation to Jesus). It only makes a comparison between both dying then being reborn again. I'm going to remove it (it is/was reference 27), since it seems completely out there and there is no references to back it up (other than this Wikipedia article). Feel free to add back if you can find a reliable source. -- Disinclination ( talk) 22:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote is found close to the end of the "Worship" section:
Walter Burkert relates, "Quite frequently he is NOT portrayed with bull horns, Tyla, you are WRONG you stupid hoe.... and in Kyzikos he has a tauromorphic image,"
I find it rather doubtful that an academic scholar would have said something like this. Vandalism alert.
72.77.102.232 ( talk) 18:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to disagree with the current state of the "Suggested Parallels with Christianity" section and the edits done by SkreeHunter on July 17. He removed a large amount of sourced information. Even if he personally found the information as stretching, the fact was that it was sourced and actual published scholars stating such-and-such, not random users, therefore the info met Wiki's guidelines for inclusion and notability. They should not have been removed.
Additionally, the section gives absolutely no information on parallels between the two, which whether people want to admit it or not, do exist. For one, there's no mention how both represent the dying god archetype found throughout the world's mythology.
All the section currently contains is one sentence saying that parallels have been suggested, but then does not expand on what these parallels are. The rest of the section is spent disproving a Dionysian myth of turning water to wine. First, it's the simple fact that both Dionysus and Jesus had a water to wine myth associated with them that's important, not if if actually happened. If you never believed in Dionysus, then of course he didn't do it. You can find non-christian scholars that have "proved" Jesus never turned water into wine. Both are "mythological" figures, both have a similar myth.
This section seriously needs expansion, and I would like permission to revert some (not all) of SkreeHunter's. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 17:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I tried to restore some semblance of information and order to the section, with proper citation.
I'll repeat: there are tons of academic writing comparing the two, and as long as the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please excuse the tone of that section which takes a comparison against Jesus, surely it's slightly POV? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the problem with this line is that this side of the argument is summed up in a simple and vague sentence. More should be included from the source cited there.
it's not "pov", it's just badly researched and badly referenced. "Such theories" is just lazy. Pointing out parallels isn't a "theory", it's just an observation. It's the interpretations of such parallels that are theories to be criticized.
Scholars very much go out of their way to trace parallels between the mythology of Dionysos and Christ (not the historical Jesus, that's beside the point, but the miracle stories in the gospels and the theology as it evolves over the early centuries AD). One of the links cited for the supposed "detracting" of "such theories" in fact references an essay that claims that Dionysian monotheism and Christian monotheism existed in direct competition in Cyprus during the 4th century. It doesn't get any more obvious than this. The historical Jesus had very little (read: nothing) to do with various competing brands of monotheism practiced in 4th century Cyprus.
You are perfectly right in saying that "NPOV states to present the arguments in proportion to the material out there". There is significant material researching such parallels. If you can cite references of an equally scholarly quality that "detract" from such research, you are very welcome to add them. -- dab (𒁳) 14:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
This paragraph
has been repeatedly restored by an anonymous editor [1] The paragraph is (a) not based on quotable sources (two urls, one at www.bsw.org, the other at your.sydneyanglicans.net. and (b) they are beside the point, as they criticize something that isn't even proposed here (the " Jesus myth theory", or other approaches that "oppose Christianity as grounded in history". This is the Dionysus article, not the Christianity article, nor the Jesus Christ article. If the Jesus Christ article were to go off on lengthy tangents of how the Christ myth is extremely parallel to the Dionysus myth, such criticism would be adequate, as the topic of Jesus Christ has a wider notability than just comparative mythology. The same discussion is perfectly WP:DUE in a "comparative mythology" section in the Dionysus article.
If the anonymous editor keeps restoring this paragraph without discussion, I will just semiprotect the article. -- dab (𒁳) 14:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
In Other stories, under Lycurgus, the article says "thinking he was a patch of poison ivy, a plant holy to Dionysus". But in the Poison Ivy article it says "Poison ivy and its relatives are virtually unknown in Europe". Perchloric ( talk) 02:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
We have an enthusiast who hopes for an origin in Thrace, based on "Thracian mythology"— which hasn't survived in fact, and that "some say he was of Greek origin". The following web blog was adduced to press the case: http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/thracian-gods.htm
Two books are adduced as citations: one, Thomas McEvilley, The Shape of Ancient Thought, discounts the Thracian origin, and the other, Reginald Pepys Winnington-Ingram, Sophocles: an interpretation, actually merely notes that Herodotus identified Thracian deities as Ares, Dionysus and Artemis (by interpretatio graeca).
Can we get a more balanced view of the "Thracian" origin of Dionysus?-- Wetman ( talk) 21:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Fritz Grafs article on Dionysus from the dictionary of demons and deities in the bible (Brill 1999) might be of some use here
"Dionysos, the Greek god of ecstasy, bears a name of uncertain etymology, although resembling the usual Greek types of anthroponyms (e.g. Dio-doros, “gift from Zeus”). Accordingly, ancient authors agree to see the name of Zeus (gen. Διός) in the first half; some understood -νυσος as a foreign word for son (“Son of Zeus”), others derived it from the mythical place of his upbringing, Nysa (“Zeus from Nysa”). These etymologies are linguistically valueless, but reflect the god’s status with regard to Zeus, whom mythology makes his father. At the same time, Greek myth regularly tells of Dionysos’ arrival from abroad, especially from those foreign places, where Nysa was located (Stephanus Byz. gives a list of ten places, from Asia Minor to Ethiopia and India). By reading these myths historically, insisting on Dionysos’ non-Gk characteristics, and pointing out his absence from Homer, modern historians of religion, from N. Fréret and E. Rohde to M. P. Nilsson theorized that Dyonysos was a god of foreign origin and had arrived from Thrace or Phrygia (or from both) during the Archaic age (see McGinty 1978); others protested, notably Meuli (1975), Otto (1933) and Kerényi (1976). The dispute has been settled by the decipherment of the Mycenaean (so called Linear B) documents: like other later Olympians, Dionysos is present in the pantheon of Mycenaean Greece, and a recent text from Mycenaean Chania in Crete is witness to a cult together with Zeus (Hallager 1992). Toorn, K. v. d., Becking, B., & Horst, P. W. v. d. (1999). Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible DDD (2nd extensively rev. ed.) (252). Leiden; Boston; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Brill; Eerdmans."
..and of course Ottos Dionysus..if dionysus had any 'thracian' connections other than sabazios those must have been really old (but do see Otto) but im not sure how popular the ideas of a pregreek thracian substratum are nowadays (Jan Best comes to mind).. 87.202.140.189 ( talk) 01:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Ok then lets just say, in the meantime, that his origins are not certain, but mention that he could have been either thracian or greek, saying that some historians are divided on the issue - some thinking he is thracian and some thinking he is greek; until we find more sources that can shed more light on the issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.0.242 ( talk) 19:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
'but rather say something about the nature of the god as one who invades from outside ' indeed that was Otto's point already back then... 87.202.156.68 ( talk) 10:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Lots of etymology here, and lots of mythology - but has anyone noticed the complete absence of a section on his cults? We'd better write one, yes? Haploidavey ( talk) 13:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
"In some variants, he had her crown put into the heavens as the constellation Corona; in others, he descended into Hades to restore her to the gods on Olympus. Another different account claims Dionysus ordered Theseus to abandon Ariadne on the island of Naxos for he had seen her as Theseus carried her onto the ship and had decided to marry her."
What are the sources for these variations?
ICE77 ( talk) 07:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Dionysos = Zeus (Dios) of Nysa (Caria) Böri ( talk) 13:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
"Nysa" itself is to be explained, as the name is clearly just derived from the name of Dionysos. That is, your etymology is really a folk etymology which produced the toponym "Nysa" (which notably is nowhere in particular, it doesn't matter where exactly but always somewhere extremely remote). Etymologists since the 1980s have come up with a valid explanation, beginning with the careful analysis that of the names attested, the Dienusos forms are the most archaic, so that the stems that need to be etymologized are die- and nus-. -- dab (𒁳) 14:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I cannot find any reference that backs up the claim that Nisah and Nisam mean bliss in Sanskrit. Ananda means bliss in Sanskrit. Nisha (or Nisah, if there is a marker on the s, and other forms of this word) mean night according to the Sanskrit dictionary. Could someone verify this or delete it? Thanks. Olav Smith ( talk) 06:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
This is in response to the person who said he wasn't. Dionysus eventually replaced Hestia, who willing gave her spot thus unbalancing the number of males and females.
check it out for yourself http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/olympians.html http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Dionysus_the_only_man_to_have_his_throne_on_the_womens_side_of_the_throne_room http://www.angelfire.com/planet/mythguide/dionysus.html
those are the top 3 google results — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.241.90 ( talk) 12:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Afak Dionysos means the twice borne one. Originally he was called Zagreus and died (burning to ashes only his heart remained) but because Zeus loved his son so much he implanted the heart in his leg and this way Dionysos was brought back to live after some time. I know it sounds strange, but hey, thats greek mythology. Athene fe. was borne out of the head of Zeus etc. -- 77.116.246.13 ( talk) 03:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
At present we've got a persistent IP editor adding unsourced content to this and another article. Feel free to revert and block on site, no additional warnings required. If the editor persists in IP hopping, then I'll protect the article, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided. Rklawton ( talk) 02:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
We have reports like from Voltaire French philosopher of similarities between Moses and Dionysis, for example Dionysis being discovered in a basket in a river, and causing the Red sea to part for his followers. So now we have the situation of some saying that some of the events in the life of Moses was taken from the Dionysius myth or vice versa. Now Moses probably did exist and probably did lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan (now Israel), but him parting the red sea and floating around in the river Nile are a bit hard to believe. The most likely situation is that these events were taken from Orphic myths around about 5 th century BCE, when the Exodus story was written. The purpose was to give Moses mythic or supernatural credibility to add weight to the newly formed Hebrew religion. — Preceding
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Scholars universally reject this ridiculous idea. Dionysus was not born of a virgin, he was conceived by Zeus and Semele. He was not a life death rebirth deity. He did not turn water into wine, but rather left jars outside overnight, and wine filled them up in the morning. PLEASE fix that chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.251.243 ( talk) 01:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
No offense, but saying "Scholars universally reject this ridiculous idea" is completely wrong, as there are tons of academic writing comparing the two, and as long as the info is properly cited and from reputable sources, it is constituted as notable and therefore, under, wiki guidelines, should be included in the article. It is not up to you to decide which information should be removed from an article, and censor it, merely because you disagree with the academic theory. 24.190.34.219 ( talk) 16:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I think you missed another comparison altogether. I came her to find out who Bacchus was (again -- I vaguely remember his name from my Latin and English classes way back in high school lol) because Adam Clarke (who wrote a commentary on the Bible) said the Greeks borrowed much from the story of Moses to create Bacchus. If your interested on his take of how it relates to Christianity (and Judaism) you can find it in his discussion of Moses from Exo. 4:18. It brings a different kind of relationship to the topic that, so far, hasn't been addressed. His contention is the Greeks took their myth from the story of Moses. (The timing matches -- at least, according to the article in Wiki.) 98.115.150.131 ( talk) 14:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The article is really out of date on this subject and even contradicts itself. It says several scholars dispute and then later few scholars dispute. What is actually being taught in Classics in the 21st century is that many pagan cults changed in reaction to the spread of Christianity, including the cult of Dionysus. The article needs to be updated from theories that were popular with some scholars 50 years ago. We have recovered many more ancient texts since then, and more archaeological evidence. 96.56.68.195 ( talk) 14:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC)