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I was wondering why the issue of the banning of Dari/Farsi by British colonialists, particularly in certain parts of the world under their control was not mentioned in the article, which I think is an important aspect of the history and challenges faced by the said language. Many notable poets and couplets in Dari/Persian where developed particularly in the region of Pakistan. Dari/Persian languages where used in the lands east of Afghanistan up to the province of Panjab and Sindh of Pakistan, where it was used as the official lingua franca till the early 1900's when the British decided to ban the language and replace it with Urdu so that the newly conquered region could be better integrated with the rest of South Asia and more importantly, to remove the historic and traditional influence Dari/Persia had the regions that make up Pakistan(A country where the number of speakers is still estimated at >2-3 million). I mention this because I think its an important issue as the Dari/Farsi language has faced many challenges and the language issue is still an important factor in countries especially like the aforementioned Pakistan which are still struggling to cope with the changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.164.238 ( talk) 01:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I know that Dari was spoken up until the time of the Anglo-Panjab(Sikh) wars. Its decline and recent historical banning is well documented by the British. While Dari did not have such a strong presence in parts of india due to the heavy influence of native indian tongues and sanskrit, Dari was used extensively in Pakistan even up until 1947 where most of the property legal papers, marriage certificates and government documents were still written in Dari. Its a shame that most Pakistani dont realize that.
Some of this writing seems to fall under a sad pan-Iranist persuasion. Hopefully we can fix this over time. -- Enzuru 22:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think promoted should work. --
Enzuru
20:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I Agree, Pan-iranians have even engulfed the pashtun articles also spreading false lies against the pashtuns distoring their 6,000 year history not mentioning all the afghanistan articles that are written by "fresh out of iran influenced" tajiks and persians even the real tajiks never associate their history with persians. 76.103.37.61 ( talk) 02:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)pashtun786
"Archaic" is not commonly used in modern linguistic discussion; I suggest "conservative". We may characterise the standard literary pronunciation (at least the way I was taught it in Kabul) as "conservative", but I'm not sure that could be said about various colloquial varieties of Eastern Persian. They often show quite a few innovations in their phonology, some of which are similar to Tehrani Persian, such as aw > ow in some words. Jakob37 ( talk) 05:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, there is some terrible grammar here:
"The principal differences between..Iranian Persian...and Afghan Dari...are:
1. the absence of the.."majhul" vowels in Iranian Persian... still kept separate in Afghan Persian, have merged..."
So, does the sentence begin as "The principal differences...are...the absence of" etc. If so, how can "the absence of" be the predicate of "The principal differences", since "have merged" must have a subject. What is its subject?! "the.."majhul" vowels" ? But that's part of the previous sentence. I think you need a which in there somewhere.. Jakob37 ( talk) 10:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The high short vowels "i" and "u" tend to be lowered in Iranian Persian, as "e" (similar to "i" in Engl. "fit", "hit"), and "o" (as in Brit. Engl. "Ron"),
Is the material in parentheses supposed to be describing the Tehrani sound? In that case shouldn't it be "similar to the vowel in "wreck" "-- or perhaps a shortened "rake" ? (I'm not that familiar with the details of Tehrani accent) --- generally speaking, this section should have items saying, Tehrani is such-and-such, whereas Kabuli is such-and-such, but in number 3, 6 and 7 your statements are not complete. And especially for #3, some reference would be helpful. I suggested Morgenstierne before, but Farhadi uses "e" and "o" for the short vowels---why? Jakob37 ( talk) 00:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"It is also believed by some that Dari Persian should not be called Afghanistani Persian, because it already existed centuries before the creation of Afghanistan, or the use of the word Afghanistani."
Frankly, I don't believe a source exists to support this statement. The founding of the modern nation of Afghanistan has no bearing on the name Afghanistan, and according to the Afghanistan article right here on wikipedia, the word Afghan has a recorded usage dating to antiquity in the form of 'Avagani'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.91.195 ( talk) 20:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I have tried several times to correct these errors, but they have been repeatedly returned to their erroneous state. First, the language is Persian Dari, not Dari Persian. Persian is not a language, it is a language group. Dari is a language. Therefore "Persian", the adjective, comes before "Dari", the noun. Remember that this is written in English, not Dari (In Dari adjective follow the noun). Also, in the grammar section it is written that the verb "to have" (داشتن) is used for simple present tense. This sentence construction is usable, but not even remotely common. It is a very rare and odd way to speak, and therefore should not be cited as the only way that Dari and Farsi are constructed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodwa4 ( talk • contribs) 21:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Shumā khub astin? vs. Shomā khub hastin?
Can someone please remove this example? It's not correct. There is actually more than one variety of Dari and the examples don't reflect the pronunciation properly of any of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.218.59 ( talk) 07:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The term used in the title of the article (Eastern Persian) is inaccurate. I could not find any academic or scholarly source which denotes Dari (the variation of Persian in Afghanistan) as Eastern Persian. Here, the word "eastern" refers to the geographical section of the Greater Iran, and the wikipedia user who changed the old title to the current one thought that since Afghanistan lies in the eastern portion, therefore Dari is the Eastern Persian. However, in the linguistics, the classification of a language is way more complicated than that. Persian relates to the Southwestern Iranian languages. By writing "Eastern Persian", the reader confuses it with the classification of the language.
Apparently the user who changed the title or moved the article did not discuss it in the discussion. I looked in the archives too, but I could not find his/her reasons. Since the move was not discussed earlier, I will change the title back to Dari (Persian). Ariana ( talk) 11:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The following was removed: Only in the Pamir Mountains there are still pockets of speakers of East Iranian languages left, such as Shughni, Sarikoli, Yazgulami, and Sanglechi-Ishkashmi, thanks to their relative isolation.
The fact that the largest extant and most obvious East-Iranian language, Pakhto/Pashto, (and dialects of such, as, e.g., Waziri is, etc) is ommited seems very strange since we are dealing with an article about a language (Dari Persian in this case) of Afghanistan rather than Tajikistan where mention of the "Pamiri" groups would be more obvious.-- Jhelyam ( talk) 09:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know where to get this book from. I searched in the internet but i could not find any available. It is cited under footnote 21 in this Dari Persian article. I'm especially interesteed in the vowels chapter(s) in this book, if there are any. Maybe the person who cited this book has an idea where to get it from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.188.18.78 ( talk) 08:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
All the linguistics knows that Dari (Eastern Persian), Farsi, Tajiki are the same language but different names and as every languages there are different dialects in each one ( such as English and other languages). I invite you to discuss about Merging these 3 languages in one with all the names we all called it and name each ones as a dialect with a separated page. So, in first step, I propose that Dari (Eastern Persian) be merged into Persian language with its name as Dari enlisted on the introduction info on that page. Please, come to the talk:Persian language page and discuss about it. P. Pajouhesh ( talk) 09:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added 22:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Using Encyclopedia Brittanica as a reference is not OK; we need to find more specific sources. -- Beland ( talk) 19:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC) Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.79.24 ( talk) 22:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Per Iranica definition, Dari-Persian is the name of the new Persian languageLazard, G. " Darī – The New Persian Literary Language", in Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Edition 2006. Another article for Afghan Persian needs to be created. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 04:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
The other article Dari-Persian was moved to Afghan Persian which should have been this former article. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi there. It seems we have a potential edit war brewing here. I've reverted to a non-redirect version of this article for the time being. The problem is that this page was set to redirect to Persian language without any of its content being copied there. If we reach a consensus to redirect it, unless we also conclude that this page's content is useless (which I highly doubt we will), then we need to merge this into the other article, as opposed to simply blanking it. — Francophonie&Androphilie ( Je vous invite à me parler) 05:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
This former page's content is not useless.. for some wrong reason Afghan-Persian was redirected to New Persian and Dari-Persian to Afghan Persian. It simply has to be switched based on scholarly references: [1]. So what I did was move the contents of this page to Afghan-Persian and then redirected this page to new Persian. This is based on conventional scholarly sources..for example:
So all I did was switch the contents of two articles: 1) Afghan-Persian to what was Dari-Persian (it was formerly directed to New Persian) 2) Dari-Persian redirected to New Persian
I hope that is made clear by these edits. Encyclopaedia Iranica is the best source on the subject and Dari is just a name for New Persian in that Encyclopaedia. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 06:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Since I was reverted, and asked to wait for a concensus..I am leaving this on the talkpage..if there are no objections within a few days, I hope the redirect can be made. Note the former content of the page is useful but for an article on Afghan-Persian. However, "Dari-Persian" is a historical name for modern new Persian, and Afghan-Persian is a subset ( a dialect) of this New Persian (Dari-Persian). -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 06:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually, you undid my revision. I've already handled all of the redirects; you don't need to do anything. As for the Dari Persian redirect, my rationale was that pretty much anyone looking for the Persian language article will just search for "Persian" or "Persian language," whereas someone looking for the Dari/Afghan Persian article could conceivably search for "Dari Persian," whereas I just don't see someone doing that when looking for the Persian language article. But either way, that's why I put the note at the top of this page. — Francophonie&Androphilie ( Je vous invite à me parler) 03:40, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Dear Reader
There is a need a clarify this misconception that Farsi and Dari are two different Persian language dialects. This idea is purely politically-motivated and came to existence only since late 1970s by Afghan nationalistic movement which took shape in the spirit and ideology of Afghanistan government. Of course historically till very recent time before that decade the name Dari was only applied to more litrary form of Farsi language used by our writers and poets in both Iran and current day Afghanistan or Transoxania. Obviously Afghan nationalism always tried to distance itself from country's vast Persian heritage and replace it with Pashton identity which is synonymous for Afghan. So challenging and segregating our widely spoken language i.e. Farsi from our neighbouring nations was their first target to achieve by applying this new name- Dari. Of course in masses conversation most people in Afghanistan dont call their language Dari, they simply call it Farsi or Parsi which is the regional name for Persian. The above distinction only exists as far as the fomalities are concerned otherwise it is only a fake entity.
The dialect difference of Persian language in Afghanistan and Iran or Tajikistan by no means differ more widely than the dialect difference between Mashad in eastern Iran to Kurdistan to its west, or Badakhshan in east Afghanistan to Herat to its west.
If I said the above in 1970s inside Afghanistan my place would have been in prison if allowed to live. But thanks to freedom we have today specialy the freedom on the net so we can freely express the truth.
To give examples supporting above arguements: two most famous poets from Iranic town of Shiraz in middle ages are Sa'adi Shirazi and Hafiz Shirazi. They both regarded and named the language of their poetery books as Dari in more than one occasion i.e. referring to their litrary glory. Similarly the mainstream language school books in use in Afghanisttan till mid 1960 were clearly titled Qera'at e Farsi meaning Farsi reading.
We need to respect and uphold the truth at whatever cost it may be. As only this way we can serve our common purpose of achieving hormony and a real peace! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.68.168 ( talk) 11:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I am totally agree that Farsi is our language name and Tajiki and Dary are just names of dialects not language and putting deference between Farsi and Dari is just a very strong political movement by British and US with Pashtoons just to destroy Farsi to replace it with English like all other deceived countries like Pakistan, India, some African countries ... and and i want to let you know that if an Iranian or Tajikistani talks to me i never ever need a translator in between to help us, so it means that Farsi = Dari = Tajiki and there is no any deference in between. Thank you Elyas from Kaubl — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.225.14 ( talk) 03:17, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/azu_acku_pk6874_qaaf42_1365
https://archive.org/details/GrammaireDuKaboli
Higher Persian grammar for the use of the Calcutta University, showing differences between Afgan and modern Persian; with notes on rhetoric (1919)
https://archive.org/details/higherpersiangra00philuoft
Rajmaan ( talk) 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I see some vandalism in the history section of the article, and there may be more too. For example it says stuff about 'cakesoldier' and the 'Al Pacino' dynasty. We should get these things fixed. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.100.102 ( talk) 05:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=I3mVUEzm8xMC&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=qcPZ1k65pqkC&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3coojMwTKU8C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan ( talk) 03:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
For the past few weeks, some editors have been replacing Dari (Persian dialect) with Persian, even though both this page and the Afghanistan page list Dari as the official name. Please weigh in on the issue at Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. Thanks. Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the page, per the discussion below, with a new hatnote for Dari language (Zoroastrian). Dekimasu よ! 23:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Dari (Persian dialect) → Dari language – According to the Constitution of Afghanistan (Chapter 1, Article 16), World Factbook, and just about every other source out there on Afghanistan, Dari is the official language of Afghanistan. See Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. --Relisted. Dekimasu よ! 22:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC) Krzyhorse22 ( talk) 14:09, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
"Phonetically, Dari generally resembles a more formal and classical form of Persian (Farsi). The differences in pronunciation of Iranian and Afghan Persian can be considerable, on a par with Scottish and Cockney English"
Where the hell is the evidence for this? Since when is Dari a classical form of Farsi if it contains many Pashto and Arabic words? Even native speakers in Afghanistan still refer to Dari as "Farsi." There is also no given citations to support this claim so i am afraid i have to remove this dribble. Furthermore, comparing Scottish english to Iranian Farsi is completly absurd. Akmal94 ( talk) 01:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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I made this edit and was reverted. Dari is an eastern persian dialect and there is no direct reliable source for "dari persian". Farsi is established as western persian and srces refer to dari as eastern persian. Please discuss, otherwise I should just put it's legitimate alternate name.-- NadirAli نادر علی ( talk) 01:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
It's good that you have stopped edit warring and bring your concerns to the talk page. The main problem is not why you added Eastern Persian to the lead section, these are main issues about your edit(s):
So? -- Wario-Man ( talk) 05:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
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LouisAragon! I agree that my english is very bad. But I have verified the arguments with various quotations from great Iranians such as Thomas Hyde, John Richardson (orientalist), William Jones (philologist) etc. The term Dari or Deri has not originated in Afghanistan since 1964, but it is at least 1500 years old. Also Darius I Persian Speaker say to him Dara and in ancient sources he was called "Darii". Dari is the Language of the royal court. It was important that Deri and Dari were older than 1964. Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Es sind Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall listed the Persian poets at the time with two hundred. You understand German. Hafez Poem about Deri : Hafisens Lied kennt Jedermann, Wer liebliche Natur besitzt, Und wer ein Wort von dem Deri 2 Noch vorzusagen weiß. 2 Deri, das rein oder hochpersische, eigentlich die Hof- oder Pfortensprache von Der, Thüre. Sie erhielt diesen Namen, weil Behramgur aus der Dynastie der Sassaniden den Gebrauch desselben bey Hof, und in Staatsschriften durch ein besonderes Gesetz vorgeschrieben hatte. [1] If we were a little constructive would not be bad! Tabnak ( talk) 00:28, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hello. Why the articel persian saying that dari is both dialect standard form? This articel self don't saying that that this is a dialect-- Maxie1hoi ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
So the article repeatedly claims that 27% of the population speak it as a native language. Okay, good. Then, the article states later that Tajiks speak it as their native language and they make up 27% of the population. Also good... But then, the article adds that Hazaras, who make up 9% of the population, also speak it as their native language. And so do Aimaqs and um some Pashtuns... Shouldn't the 27% be revised then? Otherwise, then make up some language for the others to eliminate the absurdity.
The result of the move request was: There is limited support for Afghan Persian. The more concise term of Dari was supported by the majority in this discussion and also by several editors in the recent discussion at Talk:Dari_(disambiguation)#Requested move 14 October 2019. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 11:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 11:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Dari language → Dari – Dari is not a language and it's a dialect/variety of Persian language. Calling Dari a language is similar to call American English and British language as American language and British language. The previous move request was opened by User:Krzyhorse22; a sockpuppet of disruptive sockmaster User:Lagoo sab (he was/is well-known for his nationalistic and ethnocentric edits). A weak rationale based on non-linguistic sources and personal POV + only two votes. Plus Dari already redirects here and it's a common name of this dialect in English sources. Wario-Man ( talk) 10:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Pashto and Dari shall be the official languages of the stateand it refers to the language as Dari, not "Afghan Persian". Khestwol ( talk) 20:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I was wondering why the issue of the banning of Dari/Farsi by British colonialists, particularly in certain parts of the world under their control was not mentioned in the article, which I think is an important aspect of the history and challenges faced by the said language. Many notable poets and couplets in Dari/Persian where developed particularly in the region of Pakistan. Dari/Persian languages where used in the lands east of Afghanistan up to the province of Panjab and Sindh of Pakistan, where it was used as the official lingua franca till the early 1900's when the British decided to ban the language and replace it with Urdu so that the newly conquered region could be better integrated with the rest of South Asia and more importantly, to remove the historic and traditional influence Dari/Persia had the regions that make up Pakistan(A country where the number of speakers is still estimated at >2-3 million). I mention this because I think its an important issue as the Dari/Farsi language has faced many challenges and the language issue is still an important factor in countries especially like the aforementioned Pakistan which are still struggling to cope with the changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.164.238 ( talk) 01:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I know that Dari was spoken up until the time of the Anglo-Panjab(Sikh) wars. Its decline and recent historical banning is well documented by the British. While Dari did not have such a strong presence in parts of india due to the heavy influence of native indian tongues and sanskrit, Dari was used extensively in Pakistan even up until 1947 where most of the property legal papers, marriage certificates and government documents were still written in Dari. Its a shame that most Pakistani dont realize that.
Some of this writing seems to fall under a sad pan-Iranist persuasion. Hopefully we can fix this over time. -- Enzuru 22:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think promoted should work. --
Enzuru
20:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I Agree, Pan-iranians have even engulfed the pashtun articles also spreading false lies against the pashtuns distoring their 6,000 year history not mentioning all the afghanistan articles that are written by "fresh out of iran influenced" tajiks and persians even the real tajiks never associate their history with persians. 76.103.37.61 ( talk) 02:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)pashtun786
"Archaic" is not commonly used in modern linguistic discussion; I suggest "conservative". We may characterise the standard literary pronunciation (at least the way I was taught it in Kabul) as "conservative", but I'm not sure that could be said about various colloquial varieties of Eastern Persian. They often show quite a few innovations in their phonology, some of which are similar to Tehrani Persian, such as aw > ow in some words. Jakob37 ( talk) 05:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, there is some terrible grammar here:
"The principal differences between..Iranian Persian...and Afghan Dari...are:
1. the absence of the.."majhul" vowels in Iranian Persian... still kept separate in Afghan Persian, have merged..."
So, does the sentence begin as "The principal differences...are...the absence of" etc. If so, how can "the absence of" be the predicate of "The principal differences", since "have merged" must have a subject. What is its subject?! "the.."majhul" vowels" ? But that's part of the previous sentence. I think you need a which in there somewhere.. Jakob37 ( talk) 10:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The high short vowels "i" and "u" tend to be lowered in Iranian Persian, as "e" (similar to "i" in Engl. "fit", "hit"), and "o" (as in Brit. Engl. "Ron"),
Is the material in parentheses supposed to be describing the Tehrani sound? In that case shouldn't it be "similar to the vowel in "wreck" "-- or perhaps a shortened "rake" ? (I'm not that familiar with the details of Tehrani accent) --- generally speaking, this section should have items saying, Tehrani is such-and-such, whereas Kabuli is such-and-such, but in number 3, 6 and 7 your statements are not complete. And especially for #3, some reference would be helpful. I suggested Morgenstierne before, but Farhadi uses "e" and "o" for the short vowels---why? Jakob37 ( talk) 00:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"It is also believed by some that Dari Persian should not be called Afghanistani Persian, because it already existed centuries before the creation of Afghanistan, or the use of the word Afghanistani."
Frankly, I don't believe a source exists to support this statement. The founding of the modern nation of Afghanistan has no bearing on the name Afghanistan, and according to the Afghanistan article right here on wikipedia, the word Afghan has a recorded usage dating to antiquity in the form of 'Avagani'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.91.195 ( talk) 20:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I have tried several times to correct these errors, but they have been repeatedly returned to their erroneous state. First, the language is Persian Dari, not Dari Persian. Persian is not a language, it is a language group. Dari is a language. Therefore "Persian", the adjective, comes before "Dari", the noun. Remember that this is written in English, not Dari (In Dari adjective follow the noun). Also, in the grammar section it is written that the verb "to have" (داشتن) is used for simple present tense. This sentence construction is usable, but not even remotely common. It is a very rare and odd way to speak, and therefore should not be cited as the only way that Dari and Farsi are constructed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodwa4 ( talk • contribs) 21:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Shumā khub astin? vs. Shomā khub hastin?
Can someone please remove this example? It's not correct. There is actually more than one variety of Dari and the examples don't reflect the pronunciation properly of any of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.218.59 ( talk) 07:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The term used in the title of the article (Eastern Persian) is inaccurate. I could not find any academic or scholarly source which denotes Dari (the variation of Persian in Afghanistan) as Eastern Persian. Here, the word "eastern" refers to the geographical section of the Greater Iran, and the wikipedia user who changed the old title to the current one thought that since Afghanistan lies in the eastern portion, therefore Dari is the Eastern Persian. However, in the linguistics, the classification of a language is way more complicated than that. Persian relates to the Southwestern Iranian languages. By writing "Eastern Persian", the reader confuses it with the classification of the language.
Apparently the user who changed the title or moved the article did not discuss it in the discussion. I looked in the archives too, but I could not find his/her reasons. Since the move was not discussed earlier, I will change the title back to Dari (Persian). Ariana ( talk) 11:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The following was removed: Only in the Pamir Mountains there are still pockets of speakers of East Iranian languages left, such as Shughni, Sarikoli, Yazgulami, and Sanglechi-Ishkashmi, thanks to their relative isolation.
The fact that the largest extant and most obvious East-Iranian language, Pakhto/Pashto, (and dialects of such, as, e.g., Waziri is, etc) is ommited seems very strange since we are dealing with an article about a language (Dari Persian in this case) of Afghanistan rather than Tajikistan where mention of the "Pamiri" groups would be more obvious.-- Jhelyam ( talk) 09:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know where to get this book from. I searched in the internet but i could not find any available. It is cited under footnote 21 in this Dari Persian article. I'm especially interesteed in the vowels chapter(s) in this book, if there are any. Maybe the person who cited this book has an idea where to get it from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.188.18.78 ( talk) 08:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
All the linguistics knows that Dari (Eastern Persian), Farsi, Tajiki are the same language but different names and as every languages there are different dialects in each one ( such as English and other languages). I invite you to discuss about Merging these 3 languages in one with all the names we all called it and name each ones as a dialect with a separated page. So, in first step, I propose that Dari (Eastern Persian) be merged into Persian language with its name as Dari enlisted on the introduction info on that page. Please, come to the talk:Persian language page and discuss about it. P. Pajouhesh ( talk) 09:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added 22:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Using Encyclopedia Brittanica as a reference is not OK; we need to find more specific sources. -- Beland ( talk) 19:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC) Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.79.24 ( talk) 22:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Per Iranica definition, Dari-Persian is the name of the new Persian languageLazard, G. " Darī – The New Persian Literary Language", in Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Edition 2006. Another article for Afghan Persian needs to be created. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 04:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
The other article Dari-Persian was moved to Afghan Persian which should have been this former article. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi there. It seems we have a potential edit war brewing here. I've reverted to a non-redirect version of this article for the time being. The problem is that this page was set to redirect to Persian language without any of its content being copied there. If we reach a consensus to redirect it, unless we also conclude that this page's content is useless (which I highly doubt we will), then we need to merge this into the other article, as opposed to simply blanking it. — Francophonie&Androphilie ( Je vous invite à me parler) 05:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
This former page's content is not useless.. for some wrong reason Afghan-Persian was redirected to New Persian and Dari-Persian to Afghan Persian. It simply has to be switched based on scholarly references: [1]. So what I did was move the contents of this page to Afghan-Persian and then redirected this page to new Persian. This is based on conventional scholarly sources..for example:
So all I did was switch the contents of two articles: 1) Afghan-Persian to what was Dari-Persian (it was formerly directed to New Persian) 2) Dari-Persian redirected to New Persian
I hope that is made clear by these edits. Encyclopaedia Iranica is the best source on the subject and Dari is just a name for New Persian in that Encyclopaedia. -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 06:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Since I was reverted, and asked to wait for a concensus..I am leaving this on the talkpage..if there are no objections within a few days, I hope the redirect can be made. Note the former content of the page is useful but for an article on Afghan-Persian. However, "Dari-Persian" is a historical name for modern new Persian, and Afghan-Persian is a subset ( a dialect) of this New Persian (Dari-Persian). -- 74.96.169.227 ( talk) 06:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually, you undid my revision. I've already handled all of the redirects; you don't need to do anything. As for the Dari Persian redirect, my rationale was that pretty much anyone looking for the Persian language article will just search for "Persian" or "Persian language," whereas someone looking for the Dari/Afghan Persian article could conceivably search for "Dari Persian," whereas I just don't see someone doing that when looking for the Persian language article. But either way, that's why I put the note at the top of this page. — Francophonie&Androphilie ( Je vous invite à me parler) 03:40, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Dear Reader
There is a need a clarify this misconception that Farsi and Dari are two different Persian language dialects. This idea is purely politically-motivated and came to existence only since late 1970s by Afghan nationalistic movement which took shape in the spirit and ideology of Afghanistan government. Of course historically till very recent time before that decade the name Dari was only applied to more litrary form of Farsi language used by our writers and poets in both Iran and current day Afghanistan or Transoxania. Obviously Afghan nationalism always tried to distance itself from country's vast Persian heritage and replace it with Pashton identity which is synonymous for Afghan. So challenging and segregating our widely spoken language i.e. Farsi from our neighbouring nations was their first target to achieve by applying this new name- Dari. Of course in masses conversation most people in Afghanistan dont call their language Dari, they simply call it Farsi or Parsi which is the regional name for Persian. The above distinction only exists as far as the fomalities are concerned otherwise it is only a fake entity.
The dialect difference of Persian language in Afghanistan and Iran or Tajikistan by no means differ more widely than the dialect difference between Mashad in eastern Iran to Kurdistan to its west, or Badakhshan in east Afghanistan to Herat to its west.
If I said the above in 1970s inside Afghanistan my place would have been in prison if allowed to live. But thanks to freedom we have today specialy the freedom on the net so we can freely express the truth.
To give examples supporting above arguements: two most famous poets from Iranic town of Shiraz in middle ages are Sa'adi Shirazi and Hafiz Shirazi. They both regarded and named the language of their poetery books as Dari in more than one occasion i.e. referring to their litrary glory. Similarly the mainstream language school books in use in Afghanisttan till mid 1960 were clearly titled Qera'at e Farsi meaning Farsi reading.
We need to respect and uphold the truth at whatever cost it may be. As only this way we can serve our common purpose of achieving hormony and a real peace! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.68.168 ( talk) 11:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I am totally agree that Farsi is our language name and Tajiki and Dary are just names of dialects not language and putting deference between Farsi and Dari is just a very strong political movement by British and US with Pashtoons just to destroy Farsi to replace it with English like all other deceived countries like Pakistan, India, some African countries ... and and i want to let you know that if an Iranian or Tajikistani talks to me i never ever need a translator in between to help us, so it means that Farsi = Dari = Tajiki and there is no any deference in between. Thank you Elyas from Kaubl — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.225.14 ( talk) 03:17, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/azu_acku_pk6874_qaaf42_1365
https://archive.org/details/GrammaireDuKaboli
Higher Persian grammar for the use of the Calcutta University, showing differences between Afgan and modern Persian; with notes on rhetoric (1919)
https://archive.org/details/higherpersiangra00philuoft
Rajmaan ( talk) 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I see some vandalism in the history section of the article, and there may be more too. For example it says stuff about 'cakesoldier' and the 'Al Pacino' dynasty. We should get these things fixed. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.100.102 ( talk) 05:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=I3mVUEzm8xMC&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=qcPZ1k65pqkC&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3coojMwTKU8C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan ( talk) 03:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
For the past few weeks, some editors have been replacing Dari (Persian dialect) with Persian, even though both this page and the Afghanistan page list Dari as the official name. Please weigh in on the issue at Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. Thanks. Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the page, per the discussion below, with a new hatnote for Dari language (Zoroastrian). Dekimasu よ! 23:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Dari (Persian dialect) → Dari language – According to the Constitution of Afghanistan (Chapter 1, Article 16), World Factbook, and just about every other source out there on Afghanistan, Dari is the official language of Afghanistan. See Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. --Relisted. Dekimasu よ! 22:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC) Krzyhorse22 ( talk) 14:09, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
"Phonetically, Dari generally resembles a more formal and classical form of Persian (Farsi). The differences in pronunciation of Iranian and Afghan Persian can be considerable, on a par with Scottish and Cockney English"
Where the hell is the evidence for this? Since when is Dari a classical form of Farsi if it contains many Pashto and Arabic words? Even native speakers in Afghanistan still refer to Dari as "Farsi." There is also no given citations to support this claim so i am afraid i have to remove this dribble. Furthermore, comparing Scottish english to Iranian Farsi is completly absurd. Akmal94 ( talk) 01:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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I made this edit and was reverted. Dari is an eastern persian dialect and there is no direct reliable source for "dari persian". Farsi is established as western persian and srces refer to dari as eastern persian. Please discuss, otherwise I should just put it's legitimate alternate name.-- NadirAli نادر علی ( talk) 01:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
It's good that you have stopped edit warring and bring your concerns to the talk page. The main problem is not why you added Eastern Persian to the lead section, these are main issues about your edit(s):
So? -- Wario-Man ( talk) 05:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
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LouisAragon! I agree that my english is very bad. But I have verified the arguments with various quotations from great Iranians such as Thomas Hyde, John Richardson (orientalist), William Jones (philologist) etc. The term Dari or Deri has not originated in Afghanistan since 1964, but it is at least 1500 years old. Also Darius I Persian Speaker say to him Dara and in ancient sources he was called "Darii". Dari is the Language of the royal court. It was important that Deri and Dari were older than 1964. Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Es sind Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall listed the Persian poets at the time with two hundred. You understand German. Hafez Poem about Deri : Hafisens Lied kennt Jedermann, Wer liebliche Natur besitzt, Und wer ein Wort von dem Deri 2 Noch vorzusagen weiß. 2 Deri, das rein oder hochpersische, eigentlich die Hof- oder Pfortensprache von Der, Thüre. Sie erhielt diesen Namen, weil Behramgur aus der Dynastie der Sassaniden den Gebrauch desselben bey Hof, und in Staatsschriften durch ein besonderes Gesetz vorgeschrieben hatte. [1] If we were a little constructive would not be bad! Tabnak ( talk) 00:28, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hello. Why the articel persian saying that dari is both dialect standard form? This articel self don't saying that that this is a dialect-- Maxie1hoi ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
So the article repeatedly claims that 27% of the population speak it as a native language. Okay, good. Then, the article states later that Tajiks speak it as their native language and they make up 27% of the population. Also good... But then, the article adds that Hazaras, who make up 9% of the population, also speak it as their native language. And so do Aimaqs and um some Pashtuns... Shouldn't the 27% be revised then? Otherwise, then make up some language for the others to eliminate the absurdity.
The result of the move request was: There is limited support for Afghan Persian. The more concise term of Dari was supported by the majority in this discussion and also by several editors in the recent discussion at Talk:Dari_(disambiguation)#Requested move 14 October 2019. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 11:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 11:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Dari language → Dari – Dari is not a language and it's a dialect/variety of Persian language. Calling Dari a language is similar to call American English and British language as American language and British language. The previous move request was opened by User:Krzyhorse22; a sockpuppet of disruptive sockmaster User:Lagoo sab (he was/is well-known for his nationalistic and ethnocentric edits). A weak rationale based on non-linguistic sources and personal POV + only two votes. Plus Dari already redirects here and it's a common name of this dialect in English sources. Wario-Man ( talk) 10:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Pashto and Dari shall be the official languages of the stateand it refers to the language as Dari, not "Afghan Persian". Khestwol ( talk) 20:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)