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@
Persian Lad: Could you provide precise page numbers (and perhaps quotes) for these sources?
[1] -
LouisAragon (
talk) 20:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't have it right now. If I don't have the quote, then i'll just add another one later that does.--
Persian Lad (
talk) 23:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I think this would be a very relevant and noteworthy addition to this article. Unlike most other Indo-European languages and also Indo-Iranian, persian lacks grammatical gender and they use the same personal prounoun as Turkic people for the third person, "U" Turks use "O". The same goes for the first person. There are also some other things that isn't found in old persian like adjectival agreement and more. Here is a preview of a source supporting this claim:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4030859.
Altynordu (
talk) 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)reply
We must be very careful not to read things into Perry's paper that are not stated there. He well mentions some superficial typological similarity between Turkic languages and Modern Persian, but he actually does not ascribe structural changes like the loss of gender to Turkic influence. The latter is rather seen in more subtle details (please read the full paper).
Grammatical gender was already lost in all attested forms of Middle Western Iranian due to the loss of final syllables (a process that has parallels in the history of English), thus before Iranian came into close contact with Turkic languages.
The similarity of the personal pronouns (btw nowhere mentioned in the source; are you doing
WP:original research?) is entirely fortuitous. E.g. Modern Persian man is a continuation of the Middle Persian oblique form man (direct case: an), which goes back to Old Persian mām (1sg accusative). The latter is in fact a perfect match with Sanskrit mām (also 1sg accusative). –
Austronesier (
talk) 19:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)reply
To me when I read it I think he very clearly stated the correlation of Persian losing its grammatical gender to a Turkish influence but I may be wrong if you would kindly point out where he doesn’t ascribe the change it would really help.
The similarities of the first personal pronouns is my fault I didn’t research it thoroughly enough it just seems like a weird coincidence that the two languages share the first pronouns.
I would like your help to know what the third person pronoun was that was used in Middle Persian. I do know that the one used in modern Persian is identical to the one used in Turkic languages and this would suggest an influence but it wouldn’t if it was the same during Middle Persian so if you would help me understand that it would be great.
Altynordu (
talk) 18:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Do you actually have full access to Perry's paper? Perry describes in much detail and specifically lists which features of Persian he ascribes to Turkic influence. Loss of grammatical gender is not among them.
Please don't do your own research. Historical linguistics is not some kind of amateur pastime that florishes on the talk pages of a user-generated encyclopedia. Cite expert sources, and please only cite them for what they actually say without using them as a starting point for
personal musings.
But since you're interested, the Middle Persian article has an excellently written (and excellently sourced) grammar section; the personal pronouns are here:
Middle_Persian#Personal_pronouns. For more details you can check Skjærvø's chapter in the Routledge volume The Iranian Languages. And while we're at it, I recommend Johanson's Turkic (Cambridge University Press) to get a full picture of Turkic third person "pronouns" (actually, they're distal demonstrative pronouns). –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Enigma
Court scene.
Help! I cannot find a reference for this image. It is claimed as "
Fatimid" (but this is extremely unlikely in my opinion, the style is more like 14th century
Ilkhanid or
Jalayarid) and currently appears in the
Arabic miniature article. Can someone confirm that the language of the text above and below the miniature is Persian, rather than Arabic? I would personally bet for a version of the Great Ilkhanid Shahnameh. Any thoughts? Any RS reference? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)(talk) 07:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)reply
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Persian language article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Tajikistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Tajikistan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TajikistanWikipedia:WikiProject TajikistanTemplate:WikiProject TajikistanTajikistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand
Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Azerbaijan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Azerbaijan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AzerbaijanWikipedia:WikiProject AzerbaijanTemplate:WikiProject AzerbaijanAzerbaijan articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia articles
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to
Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Western AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Western AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Western AsiaWestern Asia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Turkey and
related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Kurdistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Kurdistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.KurdistanWikipedia:WikiProject KurdistanTemplate:WikiProject KurdistanKurdistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage articles
@
Persian Lad: Could you provide precise page numbers (and perhaps quotes) for these sources?
[1] -
LouisAragon (
talk) 20:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't have it right now. If I don't have the quote, then i'll just add another one later that does.--
Persian Lad (
talk) 23:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I think this would be a very relevant and noteworthy addition to this article. Unlike most other Indo-European languages and also Indo-Iranian, persian lacks grammatical gender and they use the same personal prounoun as Turkic people for the third person, "U" Turks use "O". The same goes for the first person. There are also some other things that isn't found in old persian like adjectival agreement and more. Here is a preview of a source supporting this claim:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4030859.
Altynordu (
talk) 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)reply
We must be very careful not to read things into Perry's paper that are not stated there. He well mentions some superficial typological similarity between Turkic languages and Modern Persian, but he actually does not ascribe structural changes like the loss of gender to Turkic influence. The latter is rather seen in more subtle details (please read the full paper).
Grammatical gender was already lost in all attested forms of Middle Western Iranian due to the loss of final syllables (a process that has parallels in the history of English), thus before Iranian came into close contact with Turkic languages.
The similarity of the personal pronouns (btw nowhere mentioned in the source; are you doing
WP:original research?) is entirely fortuitous. E.g. Modern Persian man is a continuation of the Middle Persian oblique form man (direct case: an), which goes back to Old Persian mām (1sg accusative). The latter is in fact a perfect match with Sanskrit mām (also 1sg accusative). –
Austronesier (
talk) 19:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)reply
To me when I read it I think he very clearly stated the correlation of Persian losing its grammatical gender to a Turkish influence but I may be wrong if you would kindly point out where he doesn’t ascribe the change it would really help.
The similarities of the first personal pronouns is my fault I didn’t research it thoroughly enough it just seems like a weird coincidence that the two languages share the first pronouns.
I would like your help to know what the third person pronoun was that was used in Middle Persian. I do know that the one used in modern Persian is identical to the one used in Turkic languages and this would suggest an influence but it wouldn’t if it was the same during Middle Persian so if you would help me understand that it would be great.
Altynordu (
talk) 18:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Do you actually have full access to Perry's paper? Perry describes in much detail and specifically lists which features of Persian he ascribes to Turkic influence. Loss of grammatical gender is not among them.
Please don't do your own research. Historical linguistics is not some kind of amateur pastime that florishes on the talk pages of a user-generated encyclopedia. Cite expert sources, and please only cite them for what they actually say without using them as a starting point for
personal musings.
But since you're interested, the Middle Persian article has an excellently written (and excellently sourced) grammar section; the personal pronouns are here:
Middle_Persian#Personal_pronouns. For more details you can check Skjærvø's chapter in the Routledge volume The Iranian Languages. And while we're at it, I recommend Johanson's Turkic (Cambridge University Press) to get a full picture of Turkic third person "pronouns" (actually, they're distal demonstrative pronouns). –
Austronesier (
talk) 21:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Enigma
Court scene.
Help! I cannot find a reference for this image. It is claimed as "
Fatimid" (but this is extremely unlikely in my opinion, the style is more like 14th century
Ilkhanid or
Jalayarid) and currently appears in the
Arabic miniature article. Can someone confirm that the language of the text above and below the miniature is Persian, rather than Arabic? I would personally bet for a version of the Great Ilkhanid Shahnameh. Any thoughts? Any RS reference? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)(talk) 07:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)reply
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale.
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