This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Croatisation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on November 24 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
I don't know, but this article has a very propagandistic feel to it. It's a compilation of assumptions or daring statements, which are not backed up by any kind of source or information. It wouldn't surprise me, if the author of this article wrote it with the purpose of legitimating greater-serbian theories.
In the Croatian context it would cove I think a different style of article article linked to the Croatia or Demographics of Croatia and titled Demographic History and Social Integration of Croatia. It would cover the tendency of minority groups to adopt aspects of the mainstream (as covered generally in Social integration. In the Croatian context it would cover Hungarian, Austrian, Vlach, Serb and one notable Polish-Slovak Slavoljub Penkala & Brazilian Eduardo da Silva immigrant that adopted the Croat national identity and Vlach immigrants that adopted the Serb identity.
This text is completely - missing the point.
"Croatization", in Croatian, has positive meanings. E.g., like croatizing of foreign words, just like the French do with anglisms.
If you look at this from the point of assimilation of persons, neither from that side, this term that has negative conotations. Assimilation could mean that the majority in some community has accepted minority as part of themselves.
But this article is purposely written. Ordinary anti-Croat propaganda, and as such, it should be deleted.
Kubura 08:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Croatisation is a useful article. I expanded it a lot, adding the Illyrian Movement, but it should be expanded even further to include the recent croatisation of several sportsmen. I'm not well-versed in sports, but names like Da Silva or Peshalov come to mind. I'll write that chapter if nobody else wants to.
I deleted the paragraph called "Croatisization (sic!) against Italians", since it had only one sentence which had nothing to do with the title. This is how it went: The Italian communities of Istria and Dalmatia are today reduced to a minimum part of their original size. The most of Italian left the present day Croatia during the Istrian exodus, after World War II. This is an article about croatisation, not the Italian exodus. If any Italians were croatised, the appropriate chapter should be added, of course.
I also removed inappropriate links under "See also". Ustasha are quite relevant for croatisation, so I left them. But Jasenovac (an extermination camp) and Operation Storm (a military operation) have nothing to do with croatisation. -- Zmaj 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
After the last edits of user:Zmaj, the article is totally deprived of neutrality, with a lot of censure aganist some Croatian 'responabilities'; such as the Italian exodus from Croatia. I will work on it ASA, providing valid sources, according to my habit.-- Giovanni Giove 15:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Look, Giovanni, you can't put an NPOV tag just like that. You must explain on the talk page what parts of the article are POV and why. And you didn't do that. Look at my comment on this page, under the title Expanding croatisation. That's how you should explain your actions. I'd honestly like to know why you think that the current article needs the NPOV tag. Just don't start again with meaningless phrases like "you're not neutral", "you're censuring" etc. Tell me precisely what's the problem. OK? I'll leave your tag for a couple of days, but if you don't provide any sensible arguments, I'll remove it. I think that's fair. -- Zmaj 17:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Three days have passed, and still no explanation for the NPOV tag. I'm removing the tag. -- Zmaj 12:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Small minorities assimilate into the majority or into ruling country's nation.
It's normal process everywhere in the world.
Croatia wasn't independent in 19th century.
In fact, todays Croatia was dismembered in the 19th century between Austrian and Hungarian part of the Monarchy. And, as worse, the official language in littoral provinces was Italian. And still, many of those Italians that came to live in Croatian Littoral assimilated into Croats, some of them before Napoleon's and Habsburg rule.
And already, in 19th century, many of them were the local leaders or important personalities of Croatian Risorgimento, Croat national renaissance (hrvatski narodni preporod), some of them even croatising their name and surname.
Kubura 06:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
By the Age of Croatian national renaissance (that happened at the same time as in the rest of Europe), many Italians have already croatized, although there was no independent nationalist Croatia to impose such rules.
I'll list you here the names of deputies in Dalmatian Diet, when Croat-reunionist party Narodna stranka (National party) won the majority. Narodna stranka was by local pro-italianist party called partito croato (not "partito serbo-croato", not "partito iugoslavo").
Among those deputates, six or seven of them had Italian-sounding surnames.
That doesn't have to mean that all of them were of Italian origin; it could be the case that some of their ancestors were Croats that italianized their surname. Also stays for the other case, with Croat surname. There's a possibility of previous croatization of Italian surname.
Here're some names:
Lovro Monti. In this scientific article by Šime Peričić
“O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća” (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija), it says that he was of Italian origin. Abstract in English.
Juraj Biankini.
A case of Croat Rafo Arneri. A scientific article
Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia). Work by Šime Peričić, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 47/2005., str. 325–340, UDK 949.75:929 R. Arneri. Arneri was a family from Korčula, with origins from Bosnia. Still, at the beginning, Rafo was raised in Italian spirit, so he knew Italian better than Croatian. In order to help Croat cause and Croat reunionist mission, he had to improve the knowledge of his Croatian.
Kubura 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's a list of 26 deputates of Narodna stranka (partito croato) from 1870. in Dalmatian Diet. On this link, it mentions the "team" on the photo: party leader Miho Klaić, then following trio Miho Pavlinović, dr. Rafo Pucić and Edvard Tacconi; in a chain around central part: Ivan Danilo, dr. Lovro Monti, dr. Petar Čingrija, dr. Antun Bersa, dr. Josip Antonietti, dr. Konstantin Vojnović, Ivan Desković, Gjorgje Vojnović, Petar Budmani, Josip Kažimir Ljubić, Ivan Vranković, dr. Josip Paštrović, Antun Šupuk, Josip Raimondi, Stefan Ljubiša, dr. Frane Lanza, Krsto Kulišić and dr. Ante Tripalo. At the bottom are Rafo Arneri, Jerotej Kovačević and Vicko Luković, and completely at the bottom, Frane Fontana.
Kubura 09:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Statement about assimilation of Italians in Dalmatia between 1850 and 1914/18 is under very good question. Census data from article Kingdom of Dalmatia for year 1880 are:
It is if nothing else misleading speak that when school has started to use Croatian language and not Italian is assimilation. Croats have been 77 % of population and it is normal that in school and other public places language is Croatian and not Italian because they are only 5-6 % of population. Be good to answer this question with argument. If there is no answer today tag will be returned.-- Rjecina 19:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
There are no sources that refer to the departure of Italians from Istria or Zadar as "Croatization". Such extreme POV accusations need at least ONE source referring to those events as "Croatization". (When I say "source", I naturally mean a published, scholarly work.) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Who are you? A new-negationist? Be serious. First, I din't add anything, I never edited on this article, written by Kubura and friends (by the way I suppose). Second, whatever source you mean I don't care: what you did is unfair and not neutral because it's clear you desagree with the section you deliberately removed (or better you prefer not to read it). So kindly restore the text where it was since now, than add an appropriate template to require sourced needed. - Theirrulez ( talk) 02:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
After World War II most of the Italians left Istria and the cities of Italian Dalmatia in the Istrian exodus. The remaining Italians were assimilated culturally and even linguistically during Tito's rule of communist Yugoslavia.
Sources don't have to state what you prefer (absurd you can't understand it) sources just have to explain what is shown in text. Theirrulez ( talk) 15:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
[1] croatisation (in Italian "croatizzazione") of Fiume (Rijeka) after the WWII.Sources by historians Claudio Magris, Giovanni Miccoli and Roberto Finzi In this book you can obtain lots of informations about the croatisation of Istria after WWII. The auctor is prof. Raoul Pupo, also cited several times in the article about the foibe massacres. Pupo was one of the member of the Italian-Slovenian Commission of historian which made a detailed report on the Foibe, on the exodus and on the threatening of Italians following forced croatization during the cold war. This commission wrote the report "Slovene-Italian relations 1880-1956". There is also many sources about the croatisation of Dalmatia.Other sources: [2], [3]. - Theirrulez ( talk) 03:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Hower this article, per WP:OWN, can't suffer your pressure for sources you don't agree, and can't be erased or mofified as you like. Anyway sincerely, if you consider any source as unreliable source, please feel free to take the matter to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Theirrulez ( talk) 04:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe you don't know that between 1945 and 1947 Fiume was "Italian territory", assigned in administration to Yugoslavia. Only after the treaty of peace with Italy, those schools were in Croatia.-- 79.48.206.54 ( talk) 16:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, are you trying to win the award for the most edit-warring and N-reverting editor of Wikipedia?? Theirrulez ( talk) 16:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Please source events as "Croatisation". I'll be waiting for sources. Once the stuff is sourced, I'll have no problem with it. The "{{citation needed}}" tag is not for controversial and disputed text. Unsourced paragraphs can be removed without any tagging, esp these outrageous claims. This slow edit-war over your insertion of unsourced nationalist gibberish has lasted long enough.
As things currently stand, the events in Rijeka are sourced as "croatisation" by one (rather dubious) Italian source. As stated earlier, I agree to the inclusion of the statement "Italian author XY describes the events in Rijeka as 'Croatisation'. Those events were... etc." (or any variation thereof, of course). -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 03:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Should Croatisation or Croatization be used as the article name? -- ◅PRODUCER ( TALK) 16:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The more common spelling is "Croatization", both on Google [8] [9] and Google books [10] [11]. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 11:59, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
EDIT REQUEST MOTIVATION
{{
editprotected}}
Anyways there's no actual dispute, but just a single user repetitive blankings. If this could be view as a dispute, to restore the disputed section in the article can help other users to judge it and to develop a wider consensus.
Here following the section to be restored for a deepeer and more conscious (I hope) discussion: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theirrulez ( talk • contribs)
Extended content
|
---|
Even with a predominant Slavic majority, Dalmatia retained large Italian communities in the coast (Italian majority in the cities and the islands, largest concentration in Istria). Most Dalmatian Italians gradually assimilated to the prevailing Croatian culture and language between the 1860s and World War I, although Italian language and culture remained present in Dalmatia. The community was granted minority rights in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia; during the Italian occupation of Dalmatia in World War II, it was caught in the ethnic violence that followed the fascist repression: what remained of the community fled the area after World War II. [1] The Italian community of Istria and Dalmatia were forced to change their names to Croats and Yugoslav, during Tito's Yugoslavia. [2] [3] The same happened - but with lower incidence - with Italians in
Istria and
Fiume who were the majority of the population in most of the coastal areas in the first half of the 19th century, while at the beginning of
World War I they numbered less than 50%.
After
World War II most of the Italians left Istria and the cities of Italian Dalmatia in the
Istrian-Dalmatian exodus.
[4] The remaining Italians were forced to be assimilated culturally and even linguistically during
Tito's rule of communist Yugoslavia.
[5]
[6] Following the exodus, the areas were settled and hardly croatized with Yugoslav people.
[7]
[6] Economic insecurity, ethnic hatred and the international political context that eventually led to the
Iron Curtain resulted in up to 350,000 people, mostly Italians, forced to leave the region. The London Memorandum (1954) gave the ethnic Italians the hard choice of either opting to leave (the so-called optants) or staying. These exiles would have been to be given compensation for their loss of property and other indemnity by the Italian state under the terms of the peace treaties.Who opted to stay, had to suffer a slow but forced croatisation.
[8] |
END OF EDIT REQUEST - PLEASE LEAVE ANY COMMENT UNDER THE LINE
Not done for now: Please continue to discuss this and reactivate the request when it supported by consensus on this page. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 11:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Its important to note that these sources are, quite amazingly, ALL falsely quoted. They either 1) simply describe the events in question, but do not presume to label them "croatisation", or if they do actually address the subject of this article, 2) they are deliberately falsely quoted in that they do not refer to the events pushed as "croatization" in the disputed section (i.e. they have nothing to do with the text). Note for example the Sabrina Ramet ref: not only does the author use the term under parentheses in quoting a statement from a Croatian politician, but the source also refers to the 1990s, not the 1940s :P. The list is an appalling bit of sources manipulation, really, but alas too obvious: "lets list as many refs and links as we can, people won't check them so we can claim this is all sourced!"
The issue is quite controversial and very much disputed. Without an actual source there can be no real question as to the inclusion of such claims. As things stand now, there isn't a single solitary source in existence that presumes to describe the events referred to in the disputed section as Croatisation. Not even the (biased) Italian right-wing authors have done anything of the sort. Frankly I cannot believe there's an actual dispute here. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I strongly recommend you do not move and refactor my edit again, User:Theirrulez. I cannot believe you've actually started revert-warring over that. :) Do not touch my talkpage posts. This is all I am prepared to say on the issue. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
@User:Er-vet-en. Exactly. "Croatisation" is a valid term, but it refers primarily, if not exclusively, to the ethnic cleansing and cultural assimilation of Serbs and Bosniaks (the two being extremely similar to Croats culturally in almost every way, and vice versa of course), e.g. that of the deeds of the genocidal Croatian Ustaše regime, or Operation Storm. Any other usage needs to be sourced.-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, are you serious??
You don't know the difference between assimilation and ethnic cleansing.
"It refers primarily, if not exclusively...". That's a blatant lie.
Croatization can refer to assimilation of persons or to translation of foreign words into Croatian.
Assimilation can be violent and peaceful. People don't die, people don't leave their homes, but they change their ethnic identity, either peacefully (their own will), either violently (against their will).
Ethnic cleansing means killing or forceful removing of persons.
Equalizing the Ustaše regime and Operation Oluja is bad-intentional edit. Shame on you. How can you say something like that? That's mocking to the innocent victims of Ustaše regime.
Fact is that rebel Serbs' authorities have ordered and organized the evacuation of Serb civilians before Oluja started at all
[14].
Have you forgotten your own words
[15]? "How can people be "Croatised" if they leave or get killed?"
Kubura (
talk) 02:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
The whole Bosnian section has nothing to do with what this article is presumably about. The lede states that Croatisation is a "a process of cultural assimilation", which is in turn defined as a "socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture". Whoever wrote the War in Bosnia section misunderstood the term and interpreted it as equivalent to ethnic cleansing. The section lists instances of oppression directed at Bosniaks and does not offer a single evidence of anything which could be described as "cultural assimilation". The Ustashe part is also only marginally related to the topic at hand the way it is currently written (it only states the ideas of the regime but does not say anything about the effects of the alleged cultural assimilation - like for example how many Serbs actually converted to Catholicism), but I suppose it could be expanded to say something about the Croatian Orthodox Church, which would be a prime example of an attempted assimilation. Assimilation is not synonymous with persecution - it is in fact quite the opposite as the former seeks to integrate minorities into society at large by erasing their identities while the latter seeks to simply get rid of them via ostracizing or extermination. Because of this I will remove the Bosnian War section unless anyone objects. Timbouctou ( talk) 21:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
In the face of the Muslim forces’ refusal to obey the ultimatum, Croatian forces embarked on a series of actions intended to implement the “Croatisation” of the territories by force. The Muslim community was subjected to of an increasing number of acts of aggression: ill treatment, plunder, confiscation, intrusion into private homes, beatings, thefts, arrests, torching of homes and murder of prominent Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims were arrested and many were imprisoned in Kaonik in the former JNA warehouses. Many were beaten. Most of them were forced to dig trenches, often in inhumane conditions, exposed to enemy fire, beaten or even killed, and sometimes serving as a human shield.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Croatisation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Elserbio00: Please cite information's from sources and pages which are talk about Uskok Croatisation. Thanks. Mikola22 ( talk) 12:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Serbs in the Roman Catholic Croatian Military Frontier were out of the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarchate of Peć and in 1611, after demands from the community, the Pope establishes the Eparchy of Marča (Vratanija) with seat at the Serbian-built Marča Monastery and instates a Byzantine vicar as bishop sub-ordinate to the Roman Catholic bishop of Zagreb, working to bring Serbian Orthodox Christians into communion with Rome which caused struggle of power between the Catholics and the Serbs over the region. In 1695 Serbian Orthodox Eparchy of Lika-Krbava and Zrinopolje is established by metropolitan Atanasije Ljubojević and certified by Emperor Josef I in 1707. In 1735 the Serbian Orthodox protested in the Marča Monastery and becomes part of the Serbian Orthodox Church until 1753 when the Pope restores the Roman Catholic clergy. On 17 June 1777 the Eparchy of Križevci is permanently established by Pope Pius VI with see at Križevci, near Zagreb, thus forming the Croatian Greek Catholic Church which would after World War I include other people; Rusyns and Ukrainians of Yugoslavia.
We must have clean edit, it is also request of the administrator, (Closing. Also, does anyone want to clean up the sock's contributions?) [18] Mikola22 ( talk) 19:34, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Sadko stop doing vandalism, use a talk page like Mikola22 to solve problems. Do not support vandalism from sockpuppet John L. Booth as before. Thank you 93.138.99.103 ( talk) 19:56, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Sources for the This thinking was previously developed in the 19th century by Ante Starčević and his Party of Rights
statement in the "Croatisation during the World War II" section.
These are not the sources he talks about Croatianization and this topic , you have to state where he wants to assimilate other nations in the source 93.138.99.103 ( talk) 22:42, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
References
For Starčević... Serbs were 'unclean race' ... Along with ... Eugen Kvaternik he believed that 'there could be no Slovene or Serb people in Croatia because their existence could only be expressed in the right to a separate political territory.'
A large part of the Habsburg unit of Uskoks, who fought a guerilla war with the Ottoman Empire were ethnic Serbs ( Serbian Orthodox Christian) who fled from Ottoman Turkish rule and settled in Bela Krajina and Zumberak, in modern-day Slovenia.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Croatisation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on November 24 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
I don't know, but this article has a very propagandistic feel to it. It's a compilation of assumptions or daring statements, which are not backed up by any kind of source or information. It wouldn't surprise me, if the author of this article wrote it with the purpose of legitimating greater-serbian theories.
In the Croatian context it would cove I think a different style of article article linked to the Croatia or Demographics of Croatia and titled Demographic History and Social Integration of Croatia. It would cover the tendency of minority groups to adopt aspects of the mainstream (as covered generally in Social integration. In the Croatian context it would cover Hungarian, Austrian, Vlach, Serb and one notable Polish-Slovak Slavoljub Penkala & Brazilian Eduardo da Silva immigrant that adopted the Croat national identity and Vlach immigrants that adopted the Serb identity.
This text is completely - missing the point.
"Croatization", in Croatian, has positive meanings. E.g., like croatizing of foreign words, just like the French do with anglisms.
If you look at this from the point of assimilation of persons, neither from that side, this term that has negative conotations. Assimilation could mean that the majority in some community has accepted minority as part of themselves.
But this article is purposely written. Ordinary anti-Croat propaganda, and as such, it should be deleted.
Kubura 08:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Croatisation is a useful article. I expanded it a lot, adding the Illyrian Movement, but it should be expanded even further to include the recent croatisation of several sportsmen. I'm not well-versed in sports, but names like Da Silva or Peshalov come to mind. I'll write that chapter if nobody else wants to.
I deleted the paragraph called "Croatisization (sic!) against Italians", since it had only one sentence which had nothing to do with the title. This is how it went: The Italian communities of Istria and Dalmatia are today reduced to a minimum part of their original size. The most of Italian left the present day Croatia during the Istrian exodus, after World War II. This is an article about croatisation, not the Italian exodus. If any Italians were croatised, the appropriate chapter should be added, of course.
I also removed inappropriate links under "See also". Ustasha are quite relevant for croatisation, so I left them. But Jasenovac (an extermination camp) and Operation Storm (a military operation) have nothing to do with croatisation. -- Zmaj 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
After the last edits of user:Zmaj, the article is totally deprived of neutrality, with a lot of censure aganist some Croatian 'responabilities'; such as the Italian exodus from Croatia. I will work on it ASA, providing valid sources, according to my habit.-- Giovanni Giove 15:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Look, Giovanni, you can't put an NPOV tag just like that. You must explain on the talk page what parts of the article are POV and why. And you didn't do that. Look at my comment on this page, under the title Expanding croatisation. That's how you should explain your actions. I'd honestly like to know why you think that the current article needs the NPOV tag. Just don't start again with meaningless phrases like "you're not neutral", "you're censuring" etc. Tell me precisely what's the problem. OK? I'll leave your tag for a couple of days, but if you don't provide any sensible arguments, I'll remove it. I think that's fair. -- Zmaj 17:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Three days have passed, and still no explanation for the NPOV tag. I'm removing the tag. -- Zmaj 12:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Small minorities assimilate into the majority or into ruling country's nation.
It's normal process everywhere in the world.
Croatia wasn't independent in 19th century.
In fact, todays Croatia was dismembered in the 19th century between Austrian and Hungarian part of the Monarchy. And, as worse, the official language in littoral provinces was Italian. And still, many of those Italians that came to live in Croatian Littoral assimilated into Croats, some of them before Napoleon's and Habsburg rule.
And already, in 19th century, many of them were the local leaders or important personalities of Croatian Risorgimento, Croat national renaissance (hrvatski narodni preporod), some of them even croatising their name and surname.
Kubura 06:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
By the Age of Croatian national renaissance (that happened at the same time as in the rest of Europe), many Italians have already croatized, although there was no independent nationalist Croatia to impose such rules.
I'll list you here the names of deputies in Dalmatian Diet, when Croat-reunionist party Narodna stranka (National party) won the majority. Narodna stranka was by local pro-italianist party called partito croato (not "partito serbo-croato", not "partito iugoslavo").
Among those deputates, six or seven of them had Italian-sounding surnames.
That doesn't have to mean that all of them were of Italian origin; it could be the case that some of their ancestors were Croats that italianized their surname. Also stays for the other case, with Croat surname. There's a possibility of previous croatization of Italian surname.
Here're some names:
Lovro Monti. In this scientific article by Šime Peričić
“O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća” (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija), it says that he was of Italian origin. Abstract in English.
Juraj Biankini.
A case of Croat Rafo Arneri. A scientific article
Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia). Work by Šime Peričić, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 47/2005., str. 325–340, UDK 949.75:929 R. Arneri. Arneri was a family from Korčula, with origins from Bosnia. Still, at the beginning, Rafo was raised in Italian spirit, so he knew Italian better than Croatian. In order to help Croat cause and Croat reunionist mission, he had to improve the knowledge of his Croatian.
Kubura 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's a list of 26 deputates of Narodna stranka (partito croato) from 1870. in Dalmatian Diet. On this link, it mentions the "team" on the photo: party leader Miho Klaić, then following trio Miho Pavlinović, dr. Rafo Pucić and Edvard Tacconi; in a chain around central part: Ivan Danilo, dr. Lovro Monti, dr. Petar Čingrija, dr. Antun Bersa, dr. Josip Antonietti, dr. Konstantin Vojnović, Ivan Desković, Gjorgje Vojnović, Petar Budmani, Josip Kažimir Ljubić, Ivan Vranković, dr. Josip Paštrović, Antun Šupuk, Josip Raimondi, Stefan Ljubiša, dr. Frane Lanza, Krsto Kulišić and dr. Ante Tripalo. At the bottom are Rafo Arneri, Jerotej Kovačević and Vicko Luković, and completely at the bottom, Frane Fontana.
Kubura 09:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Statement about assimilation of Italians in Dalmatia between 1850 and 1914/18 is under very good question. Census data from article Kingdom of Dalmatia for year 1880 are:
It is if nothing else misleading speak that when school has started to use Croatian language and not Italian is assimilation. Croats have been 77 % of population and it is normal that in school and other public places language is Croatian and not Italian because they are only 5-6 % of population. Be good to answer this question with argument. If there is no answer today tag will be returned.-- Rjecina 19:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
There are no sources that refer to the departure of Italians from Istria or Zadar as "Croatization". Such extreme POV accusations need at least ONE source referring to those events as "Croatization". (When I say "source", I naturally mean a published, scholarly work.) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Who are you? A new-negationist? Be serious. First, I din't add anything, I never edited on this article, written by Kubura and friends (by the way I suppose). Second, whatever source you mean I don't care: what you did is unfair and not neutral because it's clear you desagree with the section you deliberately removed (or better you prefer not to read it). So kindly restore the text where it was since now, than add an appropriate template to require sourced needed. - Theirrulez ( talk) 02:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
After World War II most of the Italians left Istria and the cities of Italian Dalmatia in the Istrian exodus. The remaining Italians were assimilated culturally and even linguistically during Tito's rule of communist Yugoslavia.
Sources don't have to state what you prefer (absurd you can't understand it) sources just have to explain what is shown in text. Theirrulez ( talk) 15:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
[1] croatisation (in Italian "croatizzazione") of Fiume (Rijeka) after the WWII.Sources by historians Claudio Magris, Giovanni Miccoli and Roberto Finzi In this book you can obtain lots of informations about the croatisation of Istria after WWII. The auctor is prof. Raoul Pupo, also cited several times in the article about the foibe massacres. Pupo was one of the member of the Italian-Slovenian Commission of historian which made a detailed report on the Foibe, on the exodus and on the threatening of Italians following forced croatization during the cold war. This commission wrote the report "Slovene-Italian relations 1880-1956". There is also many sources about the croatisation of Dalmatia.Other sources: [2], [3]. - Theirrulez ( talk) 03:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Hower this article, per WP:OWN, can't suffer your pressure for sources you don't agree, and can't be erased or mofified as you like. Anyway sincerely, if you consider any source as unreliable source, please feel free to take the matter to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Theirrulez ( talk) 04:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe you don't know that between 1945 and 1947 Fiume was "Italian territory", assigned in administration to Yugoslavia. Only after the treaty of peace with Italy, those schools were in Croatia.-- 79.48.206.54 ( talk) 16:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, are you trying to win the award for the most edit-warring and N-reverting editor of Wikipedia?? Theirrulez ( talk) 16:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Please source events as "Croatisation". I'll be waiting for sources. Once the stuff is sourced, I'll have no problem with it. The "{{citation needed}}" tag is not for controversial and disputed text. Unsourced paragraphs can be removed without any tagging, esp these outrageous claims. This slow edit-war over your insertion of unsourced nationalist gibberish has lasted long enough.
As things currently stand, the events in Rijeka are sourced as "croatisation" by one (rather dubious) Italian source. As stated earlier, I agree to the inclusion of the statement "Italian author XY describes the events in Rijeka as 'Croatisation'. Those events were... etc." (or any variation thereof, of course). -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 03:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Should Croatisation or Croatization be used as the article name? -- ◅PRODUCER ( TALK) 16:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The more common spelling is "Croatization", both on Google [8] [9] and Google books [10] [11]. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 11:59, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
EDIT REQUEST MOTIVATION
{{
editprotected}}
Anyways there's no actual dispute, but just a single user repetitive blankings. If this could be view as a dispute, to restore the disputed section in the article can help other users to judge it and to develop a wider consensus.
Here following the section to be restored for a deepeer and more conscious (I hope) discussion: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theirrulez ( talk • contribs)
Extended content
|
---|
Even with a predominant Slavic majority, Dalmatia retained large Italian communities in the coast (Italian majority in the cities and the islands, largest concentration in Istria). Most Dalmatian Italians gradually assimilated to the prevailing Croatian culture and language between the 1860s and World War I, although Italian language and culture remained present in Dalmatia. The community was granted minority rights in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia; during the Italian occupation of Dalmatia in World War II, it was caught in the ethnic violence that followed the fascist repression: what remained of the community fled the area after World War II. [1] The Italian community of Istria and Dalmatia were forced to change their names to Croats and Yugoslav, during Tito's Yugoslavia. [2] [3] The same happened - but with lower incidence - with Italians in
Istria and
Fiume who were the majority of the population in most of the coastal areas in the first half of the 19th century, while at the beginning of
World War I they numbered less than 50%.
After
World War II most of the Italians left Istria and the cities of Italian Dalmatia in the
Istrian-Dalmatian exodus.
[4] The remaining Italians were forced to be assimilated culturally and even linguistically during
Tito's rule of communist Yugoslavia.
[5]
[6] Following the exodus, the areas were settled and hardly croatized with Yugoslav people.
[7]
[6] Economic insecurity, ethnic hatred and the international political context that eventually led to the
Iron Curtain resulted in up to 350,000 people, mostly Italians, forced to leave the region. The London Memorandum (1954) gave the ethnic Italians the hard choice of either opting to leave (the so-called optants) or staying. These exiles would have been to be given compensation for their loss of property and other indemnity by the Italian state under the terms of the peace treaties.Who opted to stay, had to suffer a slow but forced croatisation.
[8] |
END OF EDIT REQUEST - PLEASE LEAVE ANY COMMENT UNDER THE LINE
Not done for now: Please continue to discuss this and reactivate the request when it supported by consensus on this page. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 11:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Its important to note that these sources are, quite amazingly, ALL falsely quoted. They either 1) simply describe the events in question, but do not presume to label them "croatisation", or if they do actually address the subject of this article, 2) they are deliberately falsely quoted in that they do not refer to the events pushed as "croatization" in the disputed section (i.e. they have nothing to do with the text). Note for example the Sabrina Ramet ref: not only does the author use the term under parentheses in quoting a statement from a Croatian politician, but the source also refers to the 1990s, not the 1940s :P. The list is an appalling bit of sources manipulation, really, but alas too obvious: "lets list as many refs and links as we can, people won't check them so we can claim this is all sourced!"
The issue is quite controversial and very much disputed. Without an actual source there can be no real question as to the inclusion of such claims. As things stand now, there isn't a single solitary source in existence that presumes to describe the events referred to in the disputed section as Croatisation. Not even the (biased) Italian right-wing authors have done anything of the sort. Frankly I cannot believe there's an actual dispute here. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I strongly recommend you do not move and refactor my edit again, User:Theirrulez. I cannot believe you've actually started revert-warring over that. :) Do not touch my talkpage posts. This is all I am prepared to say on the issue. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
@User:Er-vet-en. Exactly. "Croatisation" is a valid term, but it refers primarily, if not exclusively, to the ethnic cleansing and cultural assimilation of Serbs and Bosniaks (the two being extremely similar to Croats culturally in almost every way, and vice versa of course), e.g. that of the deeds of the genocidal Croatian Ustaše regime, or Operation Storm. Any other usage needs to be sourced.-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, are you serious??
You don't know the difference between assimilation and ethnic cleansing.
"It refers primarily, if not exclusively...". That's a blatant lie.
Croatization can refer to assimilation of persons or to translation of foreign words into Croatian.
Assimilation can be violent and peaceful. People don't die, people don't leave their homes, but they change their ethnic identity, either peacefully (their own will), either violently (against their will).
Ethnic cleansing means killing or forceful removing of persons.
Equalizing the Ustaše regime and Operation Oluja is bad-intentional edit. Shame on you. How can you say something like that? That's mocking to the innocent victims of Ustaše regime.
Fact is that rebel Serbs' authorities have ordered and organized the evacuation of Serb civilians before Oluja started at all
[14].
Have you forgotten your own words
[15]? "How can people be "Croatised" if they leave or get killed?"
Kubura (
talk) 02:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
The whole Bosnian section has nothing to do with what this article is presumably about. The lede states that Croatisation is a "a process of cultural assimilation", which is in turn defined as a "socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture". Whoever wrote the War in Bosnia section misunderstood the term and interpreted it as equivalent to ethnic cleansing. The section lists instances of oppression directed at Bosniaks and does not offer a single evidence of anything which could be described as "cultural assimilation". The Ustashe part is also only marginally related to the topic at hand the way it is currently written (it only states the ideas of the regime but does not say anything about the effects of the alleged cultural assimilation - like for example how many Serbs actually converted to Catholicism), but I suppose it could be expanded to say something about the Croatian Orthodox Church, which would be a prime example of an attempted assimilation. Assimilation is not synonymous with persecution - it is in fact quite the opposite as the former seeks to integrate minorities into society at large by erasing their identities while the latter seeks to simply get rid of them via ostracizing or extermination. Because of this I will remove the Bosnian War section unless anyone objects. Timbouctou ( talk) 21:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
In the face of the Muslim forces’ refusal to obey the ultimatum, Croatian forces embarked on a series of actions intended to implement the “Croatisation” of the territories by force. The Muslim community was subjected to of an increasing number of acts of aggression: ill treatment, plunder, confiscation, intrusion into private homes, beatings, thefts, arrests, torching of homes and murder of prominent Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims were arrested and many were imprisoned in Kaonik in the former JNA warehouses. Many were beaten. Most of them were forced to dig trenches, often in inhumane conditions, exposed to enemy fire, beaten or even killed, and sometimes serving as a human shield.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Croatisation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Elserbio00: Please cite information's from sources and pages which are talk about Uskok Croatisation. Thanks. Mikola22 ( talk) 12:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Serbs in the Roman Catholic Croatian Military Frontier were out of the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarchate of Peć and in 1611, after demands from the community, the Pope establishes the Eparchy of Marča (Vratanija) with seat at the Serbian-built Marča Monastery and instates a Byzantine vicar as bishop sub-ordinate to the Roman Catholic bishop of Zagreb, working to bring Serbian Orthodox Christians into communion with Rome which caused struggle of power between the Catholics and the Serbs over the region. In 1695 Serbian Orthodox Eparchy of Lika-Krbava and Zrinopolje is established by metropolitan Atanasije Ljubojević and certified by Emperor Josef I in 1707. In 1735 the Serbian Orthodox protested in the Marča Monastery and becomes part of the Serbian Orthodox Church until 1753 when the Pope restores the Roman Catholic clergy. On 17 June 1777 the Eparchy of Križevci is permanently established by Pope Pius VI with see at Križevci, near Zagreb, thus forming the Croatian Greek Catholic Church which would after World War I include other people; Rusyns and Ukrainians of Yugoslavia.
We must have clean edit, it is also request of the administrator, (Closing. Also, does anyone want to clean up the sock's contributions?) [18] Mikola22 ( talk) 19:34, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Sadko stop doing vandalism, use a talk page like Mikola22 to solve problems. Do not support vandalism from sockpuppet John L. Booth as before. Thank you 93.138.99.103 ( talk) 19:56, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Sources for the This thinking was previously developed in the 19th century by Ante Starčević and his Party of Rights
statement in the "Croatisation during the World War II" section.
These are not the sources he talks about Croatianization and this topic , you have to state where he wants to assimilate other nations in the source 93.138.99.103 ( talk) 22:42, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
References
For Starčević... Serbs were 'unclean race' ... Along with ... Eugen Kvaternik he believed that 'there could be no Slovene or Serb people in Croatia because their existence could only be expressed in the right to a separate political territory.'
A large part of the Habsburg unit of Uskoks, who fought a guerilla war with the Ottoman Empire were ethnic Serbs ( Serbian Orthodox Christian) who fled from Ottoman Turkish rule and settled in Bela Krajina and Zumberak, in modern-day Slovenia.