This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Communism and LGBT rights article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Communism and LGBT rights appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 15 July 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Homosexuality is not something people do. It's the state of being a homosexual person. What homosexuals do is engage in homosexual activity, and that's what's been criminalised in some jurisdictions. We're trying to suggest here that homosexuality itself has been the subject of various laws in various countries, which is an absurd proposition. That would be like laws banning people from liking certain types of music - as distinct from banning them from actually performing that music in public or wherever. We have to fix the terminology. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to add the following association to the section because the cited newspaper is a reliable source of this association, which is also notable:
It is notable because the association was reported in other articles. [2] [3] Perusteltu ( talk) 06:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but here's what happened: A crazy elected guy said something crazy. A bunch of cynical local reporters wrote articles making fun of the crazy elected guy is in that underhanded way that reporters have. A few overly-earnest lefties had a protest about what the crazy guy said. More fun was made of everyone, no longer so covertly. 17 people signed a petition asking for the crazy elected guy to resign. The story faded away in 2008, more than 6 years ago. If this all was anything more than
silly season stuff it would have been covered in real sources by now. Until that happens I don't believe it's possible to make a policy-based case for including anything about this in this article, which, hodge-podge that it is, seems to be about something moderately real.—
alf laylah wa laylah (
talk)
21:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Nope, I still don't get it. Sorry to be dense. I do wonder, though, how did you decide that there were seven instead of eleventy-zillion?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 04:44, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
References
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check |author-link=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); External link in |author-link=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
cite AV media}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)
I removed this:
The 1958 book ''[[The Naked Communist]]'' by conservative United States author and [[faith-based]] political theorist [[Cleon Skousen]] states that a [[Communist]] goal has been to "[p]resent homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as ‘normal, natural, and healthy'" for this end: “soften America for the final takeover.”<ref> {{Cite book | last = Skousen | first = W Cleon | title = The Naked Communist | origyear = 1958 | url = http://books.google.com/books?id=qeLNHGleHQ4C | edition = | year = 2007 | publisher = C&J Investments | language = English | pages = 161-2 }}</ref>{{Primary source-inline|date=January 2014}}
As I'm unable to find reliable secondary sources that assert that this book is important in relation to communism and homosexuality. All the discussion of the book I can find seems to ignore whatever he says about homosexuality. He wrote an essay about "How to raise boys" or some such thing that was quite anti-homosexual, but not so much about communism in there. Anyway, without some reason to think this book's theories on homosexuality are important I don't think we need it. Plus "faith-based political theorist" seems unfixable.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 23:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
What part of "stand-alone" do you not understand?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 04:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Wherry says: "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives." A demagogue "is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, fears, prejudices, and ignorance of the lower classes in order to gain power and promote political motives." I don't think it's off the mark to call Wherry's statement demagoguery. On the other hand, I'm not sure why Wherry's even in this section, since he's not especially well-known for this idiocy.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 12:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
first sentence in Communism_and_homosexuality#Current_status needs work.
None of the four self-identified socialist states as of 2013 recognized same-sex marriages, civil unions, or registered partnerships.
i'm assuming that the four states are these 4 here, but the source for this information is a slide show from about.com. ≈ Sensorsweep ( talk) 02:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't renaming this article "Communism and LGBT rights" (or something similar) be more appropriate? Because the article (even before I edited it) was going to-and-fro with references to homosexuality and LGBT rights, and these two are not the same thing. – Zumoarirodoka ( talk) 19:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Communism and homosexuality. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Communism and homosexuality. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm by no means a Stalinist, and I hope I don't come across as an apologist.
But thing is, I knew a very well read Marxist scholar who told me about homophobia in Stalin's USSR, and how he was actually reluctant to criminalise homosexuality and caved to public pressure. Mostly due to how a lot of sectors of the public were Tsarist generation Bolsheviks with poor education and strong religious values.
I have no research, or reliable sources. This is mostly a small proposal to someone who does have the means of research, to perhaps look into this for the sake of objectivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.83.117 ( talk) 17:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on LGBT rights in communism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on LGBT rights under communism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
You will find this quote in the newspaper Pravda, 1934, number 140 on May 23rd in an article written by Gorky, but he calls it a “sarcastic saying.” I wish somebody who understands Russian better could go in and find out what exactly he is trying to say, but the page currently implies that Gorky called for the extermination of homosexuals, which is a complete misrepresentation. I have removed the quote for now. Jazznuts1 ( talk) 21:13, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Here you go: http://gorkiy-lit.ru/gorkiy/articles/article-361.htm This version is slightly edited from what was originally published in Pravda. Here is a google translate link: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://gorkiy-lit.ru/gorkiy/articles/article-361.htm&xid=17259,15700023,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259&usg=ALkJrhhe0EQQ_3x3APDTHx5i6VuE64bErg Jazznuts1 ( talk) 23:22, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the page as requested, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 15:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
LGBT rights under Communism --> Communism and LGBT rights
Per consistency with Socialism and LGBT rights. LGBT rights under communism also seems misleading; perhaps LGBT rights under communist regimes (per consistency with Crimes against humanity under communist regimes and Mass killings under communist regimes)? However, does the article actually refers to communism and LGBT rights, or merely to LGBT rights under communist regimes (maybe both)?-- Davide King ( talk) 07:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:33, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I see that page Communism_and_homosexuality also redirects to this page and also that this page covers a bit more then just LGBT rights. As LGBT+ realities in relation to communism go beyond just specific LGBT rights, I would suggest that either it is decoupled (new page would needed to be created covering lived realities and representation) or that the page has more general title like Communism,_homosexuality_and_LGBT_rights... Ideally page would be even better named: Relations_of_communism,_homosexuality_and_LGBT_rights (as there is no single context of communism but obviously many), but I am aware that it would be maybe too wordy. What others think of this? -- Zblace ( talk) 04:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
This page currently says
Communist leaders and intellectuals took many different positions on LGBT-rights issues. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels said very little on the subject in their published works and what they did say was contemptuous. Marx in particular commented rarely on sexuality in general. The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality volume two is unequivocal on Marx and Engels view of homosexuality, stating: "There can be little doubt that, as far as they thought of the matter at all, Marx and Engels were personally homophobic, as shown by an acerbic 1869 exchange of letter on Jean Baptista von Schweitzer, a German socialist rival. Schweitzer had been arrested in a park on a morals charge and not only did Marx and Engels refuse to join a committee defending him, they resorted to the cheapest form of bathroom humor in their private comments about the affair'
This has two citations. The first links to an opinion piece which simply flatly claims this without backing it up, and the second is the Encyclopedia named in the text.
The first seems unreliable to me, given anyone can claim anything in an opinion piece without elaboration. As for the second this blog post seems to suggest it merely comes from a misreading (whether mistaken or wilfull I cannot say) of one sentence in a letter written much later. However I recognise a blog is not a reliable source, so instead I ask; do we actually have evidence he DID say this? Like, OK he was a 19th Century man who said the N word, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were PRIVATELY homophobic, but does anyone have sources backing up (that's BACKING UP, not merely claiming) that he actually said this? If not, this should be removed. For now, I have tagged both sources as possibly unrealiable. StrexcorpEmployee ( talk) 20:57, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Communism and LGBT rights article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Communism and LGBT rights appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 15 July 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() |
|
Homosexuality is not something people do. It's the state of being a homosexual person. What homosexuals do is engage in homosexual activity, and that's what's been criminalised in some jurisdictions. We're trying to suggest here that homosexuality itself has been the subject of various laws in various countries, which is an absurd proposition. That would be like laws banning people from liking certain types of music - as distinct from banning them from actually performing that music in public or wherever. We have to fix the terminology. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to add the following association to the section because the cited newspaper is a reliable source of this association, which is also notable:
It is notable because the association was reported in other articles. [2] [3] Perusteltu ( talk) 06:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but here's what happened: A crazy elected guy said something crazy. A bunch of cynical local reporters wrote articles making fun of the crazy elected guy is in that underhanded way that reporters have. A few overly-earnest lefties had a protest about what the crazy guy said. More fun was made of everyone, no longer so covertly. 17 people signed a petition asking for the crazy elected guy to resign. The story faded away in 2008, more than 6 years ago. If this all was anything more than
silly season stuff it would have been covered in real sources by now. Until that happens I don't believe it's possible to make a policy-based case for including anything about this in this article, which, hodge-podge that it is, seems to be about something moderately real.—
alf laylah wa laylah (
talk)
21:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Nope, I still don't get it. Sorry to be dense. I do wonder, though, how did you decide that there were seven instead of eleventy-zillion?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 04:44, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
References
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check |author-link=
value (
help); Check date values in: |date=
(
help); External link in |author-link=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
{{
cite AV media}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)
I removed this:
The 1958 book ''[[The Naked Communist]]'' by conservative United States author and [[faith-based]] political theorist [[Cleon Skousen]] states that a [[Communist]] goal has been to "[p]resent homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as ‘normal, natural, and healthy'" for this end: “soften America for the final takeover.”<ref> {{Cite book | last = Skousen | first = W Cleon | title = The Naked Communist | origyear = 1958 | url = http://books.google.com/books?id=qeLNHGleHQ4C | edition = | year = 2007 | publisher = C&J Investments | language = English | pages = 161-2 }}</ref>{{Primary source-inline|date=January 2014}}
As I'm unable to find reliable secondary sources that assert that this book is important in relation to communism and homosexuality. All the discussion of the book I can find seems to ignore whatever he says about homosexuality. He wrote an essay about "How to raise boys" or some such thing that was quite anti-homosexual, but not so much about communism in there. Anyway, without some reason to think this book's theories on homosexuality are important I don't think we need it. Plus "faith-based political theorist" seems unfixable.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 23:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
What part of "stand-alone" do you not understand?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 04:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Wherry says: "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives." A demagogue "is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, fears, prejudices, and ignorance of the lower classes in order to gain power and promote political motives." I don't think it's off the mark to call Wherry's statement demagoguery. On the other hand, I'm not sure why Wherry's even in this section, since he's not especially well-known for this idiocy.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 12:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
first sentence in Communism_and_homosexuality#Current_status needs work.
None of the four self-identified socialist states as of 2013 recognized same-sex marriages, civil unions, or registered partnerships.
i'm assuming that the four states are these 4 here, but the source for this information is a slide show from about.com. ≈ Sensorsweep ( talk) 02:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't renaming this article "Communism and LGBT rights" (or something similar) be more appropriate? Because the article (even before I edited it) was going to-and-fro with references to homosexuality and LGBT rights, and these two are not the same thing. – Zumoarirodoka ( talk) 19:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Communism and homosexuality. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Communism and homosexuality. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm by no means a Stalinist, and I hope I don't come across as an apologist.
But thing is, I knew a very well read Marxist scholar who told me about homophobia in Stalin's USSR, and how he was actually reluctant to criminalise homosexuality and caved to public pressure. Mostly due to how a lot of sectors of the public were Tsarist generation Bolsheviks with poor education and strong religious values.
I have no research, or reliable sources. This is mostly a small proposal to someone who does have the means of research, to perhaps look into this for the sake of objectivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.83.117 ( talk) 17:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on LGBT rights in communism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on LGBT rights under communism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
You will find this quote in the newspaper Pravda, 1934, number 140 on May 23rd in an article written by Gorky, but he calls it a “sarcastic saying.” I wish somebody who understands Russian better could go in and find out what exactly he is trying to say, but the page currently implies that Gorky called for the extermination of homosexuals, which is a complete misrepresentation. I have removed the quote for now. Jazznuts1 ( talk) 21:13, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Here you go: http://gorkiy-lit.ru/gorkiy/articles/article-361.htm This version is slightly edited from what was originally published in Pravda. Here is a google translate link: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://gorkiy-lit.ru/gorkiy/articles/article-361.htm&xid=17259,15700023,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259&usg=ALkJrhhe0EQQ_3x3APDTHx5i6VuE64bErg Jazznuts1 ( talk) 23:22, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move the page as requested, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 15:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
LGBT rights under Communism --> Communism and LGBT rights
Per consistency with Socialism and LGBT rights. LGBT rights under communism also seems misleading; perhaps LGBT rights under communist regimes (per consistency with Crimes against humanity under communist regimes and Mass killings under communist regimes)? However, does the article actually refers to communism and LGBT rights, or merely to LGBT rights under communist regimes (maybe both)?-- Davide King ( talk) 07:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:33, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I see that page Communism_and_homosexuality also redirects to this page and also that this page covers a bit more then just LGBT rights. As LGBT+ realities in relation to communism go beyond just specific LGBT rights, I would suggest that either it is decoupled (new page would needed to be created covering lived realities and representation) or that the page has more general title like Communism,_homosexuality_and_LGBT_rights... Ideally page would be even better named: Relations_of_communism,_homosexuality_and_LGBT_rights (as there is no single context of communism but obviously many), but I am aware that it would be maybe too wordy. What others think of this? -- Zblace ( talk) 04:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
This page currently says
Communist leaders and intellectuals took many different positions on LGBT-rights issues. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels said very little on the subject in their published works and what they did say was contemptuous. Marx in particular commented rarely on sexuality in general. The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality volume two is unequivocal on Marx and Engels view of homosexuality, stating: "There can be little doubt that, as far as they thought of the matter at all, Marx and Engels were personally homophobic, as shown by an acerbic 1869 exchange of letter on Jean Baptista von Schweitzer, a German socialist rival. Schweitzer had been arrested in a park on a morals charge and not only did Marx and Engels refuse to join a committee defending him, they resorted to the cheapest form of bathroom humor in their private comments about the affair'
This has two citations. The first links to an opinion piece which simply flatly claims this without backing it up, and the second is the Encyclopedia named in the text.
The first seems unreliable to me, given anyone can claim anything in an opinion piece without elaboration. As for the second this blog post seems to suggest it merely comes from a misreading (whether mistaken or wilfull I cannot say) of one sentence in a letter written much later. However I recognise a blog is not a reliable source, so instead I ask; do we actually have evidence he DID say this? Like, OK he was a 19th Century man who said the N word, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were PRIVATELY homophobic, but does anyone have sources backing up (that's BACKING UP, not merely claiming) that he actually said this? If not, this should be removed. For now, I have tagged both sources as possibly unrealiable. StrexcorpEmployee ( talk) 20:57, 30 September 2023 (UTC)