This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A summary of this article appears in Law. |
This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source:
|
I have expanded info on Weber's theories on bureaucracy. Perhaps at some future's date majority of that can be moved to their own specialized articles, but for present I think it is the best home for them. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:49, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think it would be appropriate to mention the film Brazil, which is almost entirely about the dehumanising effects of bureaucracy run wild... not sure which section though. Perhaps a whole new one concerning bureaucracy in literature and film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.204.137 ( talk) 16:26, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I went here tying to locate the side effects from the imposed bureaucracy, the old ways(wich are mostly present in Brazil or in any other 3° world contrys). If anyone could write it... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.17.151.191 ( talk) 18:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I came on here to suggest adding a link to Brazil, but found that it had already been suggested! Wikipedia is pretty freakin cool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.83.220 ( talk) 04:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Consider including the story Bartleby, the Scrivener and its adaptations, too. Shoreranger ( talk) 01:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
We need a new article regarding bureaucratic agencies as in (US) government. With such points as GS ratings, Senior Executive Service, and etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.55.67 ( talk) 02:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The following was added by an anon to the bottom. Perhaps it can be incorportated into the text: Some procedures that are created from bureaucracy to solve one particular problem often become another problem within itself due to differing viewpoints and intentions of all members involved in the process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Piotrus ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we get some citations? The two sections on Marx and Weber read like OR. POV of the article seems unneccessarily swayed towards Weber. -- Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 21:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Peter_principle be mentioned in here somewhere? SMesser 22:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure why there is so much Marx in this article. Bureaucracy refers to the methodology of public and private administration. What does this have to do with Marxism in particular? IF Marx should be mentioned (I don't see why), it should not go to the extend of arguing about the feasibility of socialism. That's just totally off topic. Dietwald 09:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Karl Marx section (tagged with original research) should be deleted. I agree with the above comments that it is not relevant. -- Vince 18:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, but the film is higly relevant to the word "bureacracy". I think it is an excellent idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.131.167.66 ( talk) 01:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
"Not allowing people to use common sense, as everything must be as is written by the law. For example: a particular person cannot be convicted even if they are clearly guilty of a crime, simply because the law does not accept the evidence given against them."
But many philosophies consider this procedural justice, not an anomaly of bureaucracy gone wild. Letting someone go who can't be convicted in the eyes of the law? The article says it is against common sense. I say it is common sense. Either way it's POV. I deleted the example. Illuminatingvision 07:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Under Criticism: "As Max Weber himself noted, in reality no ideal type organization can exist. Thus the real bureaucracy will be less optimal and effective than his ideal model. Each of Weber's seven principles can degenerate."
This so-called criticism misses the point of Weber's Ideal type, completely. In short not a valid criticism of Weber’s model and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.139.120.169 ( talk) 03:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Marx died in 1883. Weber died in 1920. Yet most of this article tells us what Weber and Marx said. While it is true that this article ought to include these viewpoints--especially Weber's contributions, which are still taught in college courses on bureaucracy--the focus of this article ought to be elsewhere. Our understanding of bureaucracy has progressed considerably since 1883 and 1920. Now, we mostly worry about the policy implications of delegating rule-making powers (among other responsibilities) from elected politicians to unelected bureaucracies. This concern is dominant both in politics (how many times have you heard a campaign advertisment mention "unaccountable bureaucrats?") as well as in academia (which has moved from "iron triangles" to "capture theory" to "police patrols and fire alarms"). Indeed, the bulk of the bureaucratic studies literature focuses exclusively on questions of delegation and policy control: Legislatures delegate regulatory authority to bureaucrats, who may use this authority in unexpected ways.
I wrote a section on these topics a couple months ago (the "Current Debates" section in the article), which should probably be renamed, expanded, and moved upward (IMHO). To make this article relevant to the typical visitor, should we not be focusing more on these issues of accountability and regulation? While Weber's contributions are relevant (probably more so than Marx's), the detailed summary of them available here belongs in a textbook, or in a less prominent part of the present article.
Implementing these suggestions would involve rather radical changes to the article as presently constituted. Although Wikipedia's guidelines encourage us to be bold, I'll forego overhauling the article until waiting for some feedback. (Better yet, since I'm quite pressed for time, perhaps somebody else wants to step up to the plate.)
Apologies for the long rant. A10brown 20:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
See the Talk page which I created "Government Reform subset Bureaucratic Reform"
I have recently added this talk page with references to my web blog on government Reform at: http://managementconsultant.blogsome.com and my Ebook site at: http://ebooksbylrosier.blogspot.com Reprinted articles are noted but few all other material is my original work and constitutes a break through in Bureaucratic reform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.153.189 ( talk) 11:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some sources suggest the Ottoman city of Bursa as the first source of bureaucracy, I see no mention of it in the article though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kris.Haamer ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any good sources on the history of bureaucratic government or authority (Foucault maybe?), but surely the United States is not the origin of the idea. Granted, early bureaucracies weren't called "bureaucracies" or any similar name (bureaucracies precede both the French and English languages after all), but the general idea was already taking shape in the ancient world-- the cursus honorum in the Roman Empire, for example, was a series of bureaucratic posts (aediles and censors in particular), and the ancient Chinese states (even those preceding the Qin Dynasty) were known for their bureaucratic functioning and authority.
So, in short, the section needs a complete rewrite. Anyone have anything to suggest or argue? siafu 22:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
--I wrote a description of some of the origins of bureaucracy from ancient Sumer to the modern day. Most of that is based on my own personal knowledge of history, which is pretty thorough. If anyone wants to make any changes, though, that's fine. Segregold 17:55, 17 August 2007
I contributed the bit on the etymology and a bit on the Marxian interpretation. However there exists a large contemporary literature on bureaucracy and therefore I agree the article could be expanded. Both the Marxist and Weberian interpretations have been very influential though. User:Jurriaan 23:57 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The banned user Serafin, editing anonymously, insists on including this information at the top of the article:
It is a complete non sequitur, and contradicts another part of the lead section:
Of these, only (some) governments are "democratic systems". Yet Serafin insists on making his argument in the lead paragraph, violating WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD. -- Karldoh 11:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The sub-section selectively uses definitions to try to prove a POV. In each example, two or more definitions, listed earlier in precedence in the source, do not have any negative connotation to them. I do not suggest that the assertion is entirely false, only that the citations used do not prove the claims made and, in fact, imply the claims are not as widely accepted as indicated. Shoreranger ( talk) 19:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
"There's a reason bureaucrats are seen as ass-coverers whose foremost priority is to ensure that they're never accountable for anything. It's because many bureaucrats really are ass-coverers whose overriding priority is to ensure that they're never accountable for anything. As a corollary, if things go wrong, support for the idea that you predicted it may be helpful in building your bureaucracy's importance at the expense of its rivals.
"This is as true within corporations as it is in the public sector or the military. If you've spent much time in the working world, you've seen this tendency in action."
Presently, the article credit Thomas Lowi (1971) for coining the phrase. It's been quite a while since I've checked the original sources, but I've usually seen credit going to Douglass Cates, Power in Washington, which was published quite a few years earlier (1964) by Random House. I'm not a registered "user," but I have no objections to having my "IP address" recorded -- I'm professor Wm. Freudenburg, UCSB <freudenburg@es.ucsb.edu> if anyone wants to follow up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.76.21 ( talk) 16:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added a section of the work of the French Sociologist Michel Crozier - I was surprised to find that there was no mention of his work here although his work is widely cited in the French speaking world [ [3]]
Compo ( talk) 15:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Bureaucracy is a formal organization based on rationality and efficiency. [1] And also add in the reference. Smallman12q ( talk) 23:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
Bureaucracy is one of the most misspelled words in the English language. Even google calmly accepts the misspelling beaurocrasy without further comment. Can we redirect Beaurocrasy to Bureaucracy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.12.184 ( talk) 13:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This article show the "broken references" warning. I suppose you know how to fix that one.
Debresser (
talk) 22:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Based on the fact that Scientology, despite claiming to be a religion, operates more like a money-grubbing cult [1], I think that Scientology could be classified as a bureaucracy. However, the article isn't very clear on the structure of its organization, such as who ranks where, how labor is divided, the qualifications to be employed by an institution of Scientology, and how promotions can occur (among other features of a bureaucracy.) So, does Scientology bear the trappings of a bureaucracy, or am I just deluding myself? -- Luigifan ( talk) 21:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
References
As Marx, Weber and the like get so much attention, I think Mises might be worth a look in?
"Mises's 1944 book applies his insight concerning economic calculation to delineate the difference between bureaucratic management and profit-and-loss management in the free market. The implications of his argument are far reaching, for it shows that all types of public administration lack the ability to conduct their affairs in an economic rational manner." http://mises.org/etexts/mises/bureaucracy.asp
I'd suggest just as an external link, but a little section might be ok too. Larklight ( talk) 22:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the addition at the top of a direct to the Wikipedia guideline WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY would be good. Fences and windows ( talk) 07:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Just an FYI - the section of "criticism" seems to be plagiarized from this book:
Chattopadhyay, H.P., and Indu Baghel. Indian Administration Vol. 1. New Dehli: Global Vision Publishing House, 2009. Print.
Just try searching for that first phrase "As Max Weber himself noted, real bureaucracy will be less optimal and effective than his ideal type model. " and you'll find it on page 89. 130.156.46.252 ( talk) 17:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)TIMER
{{edit semi-protected}} Add citation for Bureaucracy:
USLaw.com Dictionary ( http://www.uslaw.com/us_law_dictionary/b/Bureaucracy)
168.68.1.127 ( talk) 14:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I ran across this in the Illinois employer handbook: http://www.ides.state.il.us/employer/magnetic-filing.asp
Though someone mite want to use it to talk about some of the possible side effects of bureaucracy.
Smittycity42 ( talk) 04:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)smittycity42
The article says "The Sumerian script was so complicated that it required specialists who had trained for their entire lives in the discipline of writing to manipulate it."
Is Sumerian really more complicated than, say, English (which, after all, has no systematic rules for spelling)?
I suspect the real problem is this: in a primarily non-literate culture, where only a few people learn to read and write, these few people will form a class that is very hard to enter. After, most of us here spent years learning to read and write; if schools weren't widespread this would seem like a mammoth undertaking. But that doesn't mean we "trained for our entire lives" in order to read and write. It just feels that way when we're in high school or college. :-)
Hmm, but I guess if the life expectancy were about 30-40 years, it would be closer to true...
Anyway: I'm questioning whether Sumerian is really particularly complicated as written languages go.
John Baez ( talk) 02:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I don't mean to be a pain, but in the Weber section it says:
"However, he also emphasized that bureaucracy becomes inefficient when a decision must be adopted to an individual case."
I think there's a grammar/spelling issue here. Shouldn't it either be adapted to an individual case or adopted for an individual case?
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebeccawidom ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
This recent edit removed the {{Over detailed|section}} tag, suggesting that the material was in fact "pretty short". Given that this chunky section deals with just one writer—the only one to get such treatment in this broad-brush article—wouldn't WP:UNDUE be more appropriate? If Crozier does have sufficient significance over the topic to warrant an individual mention then a WP:SS template would do, otherwise treat him in the same way as the others, with a "see also" link at the foot of the page.
Views? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 10:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} the term "bureaucracy" was first coined by Vincent de Gournay, a french economist in 1745. he stated,"we have an illnes in france which bids fair to play havoc with us; this illness is called Burreaumania." In French word 'bureau' means a desk.
Er.avijit.pandey ( talk) 12:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
A series of recent edits have removed almost the entire content of the article: [4]. I am not sure if this improved the article, much content was unreferenced, but was roughly correct and useful (for example, the Weber section). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The initial "the purpose of a bureaucracy" blub reads more like an advertisement and less like something that distinguishes a bureaucracy from an non-bureaucracy. Heck, the sentence would not lose any meaning if "bureaucracy" was changed to "form of government" or "organizational methodology". The distinguishing characteristic between a bureaucratic and a non-bureaucratic organization seems to be the the former has its activities or governance split across a number of "bureaus", "departments", or other groupings. Admittedly, today, it seems like an obvious necessity for larger organizations. Still, the initial text should list the defining characteristic. Mike Mondy ( talk) 21:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC) Mike
I just removed the material below from the article, because it's biased and has no sources. I think it would be fine to add something like this back once it's properly sourced, and balanced by differing points of view. If nobody else does that I will try to come back and do it myself; I can't do it right now though. Sue Gardner ( talk) 20:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
-- You raise a good point, but I think the negative connotations of the word bureaucracy should be a section in the overall topic, rather than characterising the entire topic. Many people don't like paying tax but you wouldn't expect the opening sentence of the Wiki entry for 'Tax' to present it negatively; you would expect an objective presentation of the topic. This Wiki page opens with bureaucracy being defined as creating red tape and other negative connotations. kabl00ey ( talk) 05:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
It seems the article have been absurdly pruned to only contain Max Weber. Max Weber isn't bureaucracy. He didn't invent it, and presumably he didn't even invent the term, he is one of the main founding sociologers modelling it. The article should contain:
Personally I believe the Romans invented bureaucracy based on my observations from reading the Asterix cartoon, but an alternative theory is that the Roman Catholic church modified it extensively, and then offered it as a holy gift to ruling almost-christian barbarian kings in migration age Europe. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 13:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
It appears as almost every edit in January is vandalism. Perhaps some in December as well. Jokeyxero ( talk) 18:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This article is terrible. This is an important subject for people to understand, Wikipedia contributors shouls do better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.76.223 ( talk) 23:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
The article begins as if "bureaucracy" were a term referring exclusively to public ("governmental") organizations. Regardless of how one views bureaucracy, all organization theorists worthy of the name now recognize that "bureaucracy" refers to the structure of the organization, whether publicly- or privately-owned. I have more to say on this topic much further down the page. Landrumkelly ( talk) 12:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the page had some flaws back in January 2011, but at least it contained useful material. Since then, it's been pruned out of existence. Revert and try again? 190.42.170.72 ( talk) 18:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
This sentence from the introductory paragraph: " In other words, a government bureaucracy carries out the decisions of the legislature or democratically-elected representation of a state."
It implies that bureaucracies only exist in democratic systems of government, and do not exist in non-democratic forms (ie dictatorships, communism, etc). CDB-Man ( talk) 19:29, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
-----
Please sign your posts with the four tildes: ~~~~
Bureaucracies exist an any large organization. They are needed to carry out the functions of the organization.
Does a dictator not need a bureaucracy to implement his/her policies, such as propaganda or taxation? Does a Socialist government not need a bureaucracy to run all of their social programs, such as health care or or social security?
My quote from the article, " In other words, a government bureaucracy carries out the decisions of the legislature or democratically-elected representation of a state." the quote is implying bureaucracies ONLY exist to carry out the decisions of a legislature or democratic representation, to the exclusion on non-legislature/democratic governments (ie dictatorships/autocrats). But like I described, any large organization, such as a government, needs a bureaucracy to implement its functions.
CDB-Man ( talk) 07:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC); Edited: CDB-Man ( talk) 07:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
this article has been trimmed to the point that it contains almost no relevant information, and is a hollow shell. it needs a fresh start, with accurate, cited information. Aunva6 ( talk) 06:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I wrote a solid outline of the subject with accurate, cited information. This included a description of bureaucracy, etymology of the historical origins of the word, historical examples of bureaucracies, and theoretical approaches to understanding this system of government. Everything was carefully sourced.
This revision was deleted by the site's editors. However, you can still find it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Bureaucracy&oldid=517350592
Feel free to expand and improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.193.65 ( talk) 06:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
The areas that might benefit from updating is "The German sociologist, Max Weber, argued that bureaucracy constitutes the most efficient..." is missing commas before and after "Max Webers" name.
"Here, too, the sense was pejorative, with Irish novelist Lady Morgan referring to "the Bureaucratie, or office tyranny, by which Ireland has so long been governed."[19] There doesn't need to be a comma after pejorative. Mel29g ( talk) 16:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Bureaucracy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
My plan for contributing to the Bureaucracy article in Wikipedia is focused on adding a section on women in bureaucracy. This is a widely discussed topic in academia with many scholarly conversations to back it up. With my plan I will be adding on a section to the end of the article that expands the term of bureaucracy and how it relates to women/ women in charge. I plan to start with statistics of women in the bureaucracy and go into explaining the barriers that women face when trying to rise to positions of power in bureaucratic agencies. I will also talk about the effect of the lack of representation of women in the bureaucracy in terms of passive and active representation including policy areas women represent and what in turn it means for their constituents. My main source, “Some Ceilings Have More Cracks: Representative Bureaucracy in Federal Agencies” by Amy Smith, [1] outlines the number of women in bureaucratic agencies and the glass ceiling they experience. I will use this article to get statistics on the number of women in the federal bureaucracy and how it relates to the number of men. I will use my other sources to get information on how women struggle to reach positions of power in bureaucratic agencies. One of my sources proposes a theory that women are put in charge of agencies that are seen as weak or set for failure. It includes proper research to support this concept. AfWill ( talk) 01:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
There is almost no mention of PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS AS BUREAUCRACIES! What there is is buried deep in the article. I have taught in two graduate programs in public administration since the early 1980s (and in undergraduate programs in public administration since 1977), as well as offered the occasional course on modern organizations/organizational behavior in a business department. The bureaucratic form of social organization is ubiquitous in modern society, and everything that Weber wrote about publicly-owned organizations can as easily be applied to private organizations. My view is not "marxist." Among organization theorists (and I am one, along with being a political theorist) such a perspective is mainstream. The article says next to nothing about (typically large) private organizations as being inherently bureaucratic, but the way the article leads off suggests that bureaucracies are inherently public in nature. They are NOT. This results in a gross distortion of readers' understanding of modern organizations, almost all of which are bureaucratic in nature. Lest I be misunderstood, both private and public organizations tend to be bureaucratic in nature. Weber's descriptors of "bureaucracy" are the same, whether the organization is publicly-owned or privately-owned. We can argue here forever about both the positive and negative aspects of bureaucratization in culture, but we must first make clear to readers that bureaucracy in itself is not inherently something having to do with the public sphere. It is NOT. --J. Landrum Kelly, Ph.D., (Florida) Landrumkelly ( talk) 12:31, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
References
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AfWill.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 16:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Emerging in nearest future AI and self-aware, self-conscious AI will lead to birth of self-making AI. That may have a potential of creating pure AI micro and macro societies. A human competition with AI is not only possible, it is one of the scenarios of AI developing and auto-recognizing itself in human society.
As such AI very unlikely inherit or create a system of bureaucracy for its own society. Every innovation or invention that AI brings to life would go seamlessly from idea to production without relying on a bureaucratic system , registering, reporting and so on.
At the peaceful stage of competition between human society and that of AI society - human system of bureaucracy might be severely diminished or even destroyed - in order to be able to compete with non-bureaucratic AI society(societies).
A human bureaucracy system might experience a severe blow as a result of such competition. AI would minimize time between making a decision and executing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guerraliberta ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
Any opinions on whether The Utopia of Rules should be given weight here? It's cited 683 times in Google Scholar as of this writing. [5] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 17:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Bureaucratic 2405:204:5215:4BDB:0:0:1854:E0A0 ( talk) 16:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Discribe the features of bureacracy 2409:4073:30E:E8C7:0:0:1F07:D8A0 ( talk) 15:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
The use of Ashanti Empire, the United Kingdom, and France as the three examples of "Modern" bureaucracy is odd. While the Ashanti Empire is worthy of greater recognition, I don't think that its bureaucratic systems and processes are sufficiently understood to make meaningful contributions to our understanding of bureaucracy itself. In place of (or in addition to) the Ashanti Empire, I would argue that the United States has relevancy to the study of bureaucracy and would be of interest to readers. Elements of interest would be the history of the federal government bureaucracy during the times of the founding fathers and the patronage of Andrew Jackson, the development of the merit system through mechanisms like the Pendleton Act, and the difficulty in measuring the size of the American bureaucracy.
Another interesting element of modern bureaucracy would be the rise of multinational organizations such as the EU and the United Nations. JSF2009 ( talk) 22:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)JSF2009
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A summary of this article appears in Law. |
This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source:
|
I have expanded info on Weber's theories on bureaucracy. Perhaps at some future's date majority of that can be moved to their own specialized articles, but for present I think it is the best home for them. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:49, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think it would be appropriate to mention the film Brazil, which is almost entirely about the dehumanising effects of bureaucracy run wild... not sure which section though. Perhaps a whole new one concerning bureaucracy in literature and film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.204.137 ( talk) 16:26, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I went here tying to locate the side effects from the imposed bureaucracy, the old ways(wich are mostly present in Brazil or in any other 3° world contrys). If anyone could write it... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.17.151.191 ( talk) 18:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I came on here to suggest adding a link to Brazil, but found that it had already been suggested! Wikipedia is pretty freakin cool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.83.220 ( talk) 04:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Consider including the story Bartleby, the Scrivener and its adaptations, too. Shoreranger ( talk) 01:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
We need a new article regarding bureaucratic agencies as in (US) government. With such points as GS ratings, Senior Executive Service, and etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.55.67 ( talk) 02:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The following was added by an anon to the bottom. Perhaps it can be incorportated into the text: Some procedures that are created from bureaucracy to solve one particular problem often become another problem within itself due to differing viewpoints and intentions of all members involved in the process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Piotrus ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we get some citations? The two sections on Marx and Weber read like OR. POV of the article seems unneccessarily swayed towards Weber. -- Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 21:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Peter_principle be mentioned in here somewhere? SMesser 22:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure why there is so much Marx in this article. Bureaucracy refers to the methodology of public and private administration. What does this have to do with Marxism in particular? IF Marx should be mentioned (I don't see why), it should not go to the extend of arguing about the feasibility of socialism. That's just totally off topic. Dietwald 09:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Karl Marx section (tagged with original research) should be deleted. I agree with the above comments that it is not relevant. -- Vince 18:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, but the film is higly relevant to the word "bureacracy". I think it is an excellent idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.131.167.66 ( talk) 01:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
"Not allowing people to use common sense, as everything must be as is written by the law. For example: a particular person cannot be convicted even if they are clearly guilty of a crime, simply because the law does not accept the evidence given against them."
But many philosophies consider this procedural justice, not an anomaly of bureaucracy gone wild. Letting someone go who can't be convicted in the eyes of the law? The article says it is against common sense. I say it is common sense. Either way it's POV. I deleted the example. Illuminatingvision 07:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Under Criticism: "As Max Weber himself noted, in reality no ideal type organization can exist. Thus the real bureaucracy will be less optimal and effective than his ideal model. Each of Weber's seven principles can degenerate."
This so-called criticism misses the point of Weber's Ideal type, completely. In short not a valid criticism of Weber’s model and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.139.120.169 ( talk) 03:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Marx died in 1883. Weber died in 1920. Yet most of this article tells us what Weber and Marx said. While it is true that this article ought to include these viewpoints--especially Weber's contributions, which are still taught in college courses on bureaucracy--the focus of this article ought to be elsewhere. Our understanding of bureaucracy has progressed considerably since 1883 and 1920. Now, we mostly worry about the policy implications of delegating rule-making powers (among other responsibilities) from elected politicians to unelected bureaucracies. This concern is dominant both in politics (how many times have you heard a campaign advertisment mention "unaccountable bureaucrats?") as well as in academia (which has moved from "iron triangles" to "capture theory" to "police patrols and fire alarms"). Indeed, the bulk of the bureaucratic studies literature focuses exclusively on questions of delegation and policy control: Legislatures delegate regulatory authority to bureaucrats, who may use this authority in unexpected ways.
I wrote a section on these topics a couple months ago (the "Current Debates" section in the article), which should probably be renamed, expanded, and moved upward (IMHO). To make this article relevant to the typical visitor, should we not be focusing more on these issues of accountability and regulation? While Weber's contributions are relevant (probably more so than Marx's), the detailed summary of them available here belongs in a textbook, or in a less prominent part of the present article.
Implementing these suggestions would involve rather radical changes to the article as presently constituted. Although Wikipedia's guidelines encourage us to be bold, I'll forego overhauling the article until waiting for some feedback. (Better yet, since I'm quite pressed for time, perhaps somebody else wants to step up to the plate.)
Apologies for the long rant. A10brown 20:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
See the Talk page which I created "Government Reform subset Bureaucratic Reform"
I have recently added this talk page with references to my web blog on government Reform at: http://managementconsultant.blogsome.com and my Ebook site at: http://ebooksbylrosier.blogspot.com Reprinted articles are noted but few all other material is my original work and constitutes a break through in Bureaucratic reform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.153.189 ( talk) 11:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some sources suggest the Ottoman city of Bursa as the first source of bureaucracy, I see no mention of it in the article though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kris.Haamer ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any good sources on the history of bureaucratic government or authority (Foucault maybe?), but surely the United States is not the origin of the idea. Granted, early bureaucracies weren't called "bureaucracies" or any similar name (bureaucracies precede both the French and English languages after all), but the general idea was already taking shape in the ancient world-- the cursus honorum in the Roman Empire, for example, was a series of bureaucratic posts (aediles and censors in particular), and the ancient Chinese states (even those preceding the Qin Dynasty) were known for their bureaucratic functioning and authority.
So, in short, the section needs a complete rewrite. Anyone have anything to suggest or argue? siafu 22:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
--I wrote a description of some of the origins of bureaucracy from ancient Sumer to the modern day. Most of that is based on my own personal knowledge of history, which is pretty thorough. If anyone wants to make any changes, though, that's fine. Segregold 17:55, 17 August 2007
I contributed the bit on the etymology and a bit on the Marxian interpretation. However there exists a large contemporary literature on bureaucracy and therefore I agree the article could be expanded. Both the Marxist and Weberian interpretations have been very influential though. User:Jurriaan 23:57 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The banned user Serafin, editing anonymously, insists on including this information at the top of the article:
It is a complete non sequitur, and contradicts another part of the lead section:
Of these, only (some) governments are "democratic systems". Yet Serafin insists on making his argument in the lead paragraph, violating WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD. -- Karldoh 11:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The sub-section selectively uses definitions to try to prove a POV. In each example, two or more definitions, listed earlier in precedence in the source, do not have any negative connotation to them. I do not suggest that the assertion is entirely false, only that the citations used do not prove the claims made and, in fact, imply the claims are not as widely accepted as indicated. Shoreranger ( talk) 19:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
"There's a reason bureaucrats are seen as ass-coverers whose foremost priority is to ensure that they're never accountable for anything. It's because many bureaucrats really are ass-coverers whose overriding priority is to ensure that they're never accountable for anything. As a corollary, if things go wrong, support for the idea that you predicted it may be helpful in building your bureaucracy's importance at the expense of its rivals.
"This is as true within corporations as it is in the public sector or the military. If you've spent much time in the working world, you've seen this tendency in action."
Presently, the article credit Thomas Lowi (1971) for coining the phrase. It's been quite a while since I've checked the original sources, but I've usually seen credit going to Douglass Cates, Power in Washington, which was published quite a few years earlier (1964) by Random House. I'm not a registered "user," but I have no objections to having my "IP address" recorded -- I'm professor Wm. Freudenburg, UCSB <freudenburg@es.ucsb.edu> if anyone wants to follow up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.76.21 ( talk) 16:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added a section of the work of the French Sociologist Michel Crozier - I was surprised to find that there was no mention of his work here although his work is widely cited in the French speaking world [ [3]]
Compo ( talk) 15:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Bureaucracy is a formal organization based on rationality and efficiency. [1] And also add in the reference. Smallman12q ( talk) 23:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
Bureaucracy is one of the most misspelled words in the English language. Even google calmly accepts the misspelling beaurocrasy without further comment. Can we redirect Beaurocrasy to Bureaucracy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.12.184 ( talk) 13:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This article show the "broken references" warning. I suppose you know how to fix that one.
Debresser (
talk) 22:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Based on the fact that Scientology, despite claiming to be a religion, operates more like a money-grubbing cult [1], I think that Scientology could be classified as a bureaucracy. However, the article isn't very clear on the structure of its organization, such as who ranks where, how labor is divided, the qualifications to be employed by an institution of Scientology, and how promotions can occur (among other features of a bureaucracy.) So, does Scientology bear the trappings of a bureaucracy, or am I just deluding myself? -- Luigifan ( talk) 21:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
References
As Marx, Weber and the like get so much attention, I think Mises might be worth a look in?
"Mises's 1944 book applies his insight concerning economic calculation to delineate the difference between bureaucratic management and profit-and-loss management in the free market. The implications of his argument are far reaching, for it shows that all types of public administration lack the ability to conduct their affairs in an economic rational manner." http://mises.org/etexts/mises/bureaucracy.asp
I'd suggest just as an external link, but a little section might be ok too. Larklight ( talk) 22:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the addition at the top of a direct to the Wikipedia guideline WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY would be good. Fences and windows ( talk) 07:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Just an FYI - the section of "criticism" seems to be plagiarized from this book:
Chattopadhyay, H.P., and Indu Baghel. Indian Administration Vol. 1. New Dehli: Global Vision Publishing House, 2009. Print.
Just try searching for that first phrase "As Max Weber himself noted, real bureaucracy will be less optimal and effective than his ideal type model. " and you'll find it on page 89. 130.156.46.252 ( talk) 17:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)TIMER
{{edit semi-protected}} Add citation for Bureaucracy:
USLaw.com Dictionary ( http://www.uslaw.com/us_law_dictionary/b/Bureaucracy)
168.68.1.127 ( talk) 14:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I ran across this in the Illinois employer handbook: http://www.ides.state.il.us/employer/magnetic-filing.asp
Though someone mite want to use it to talk about some of the possible side effects of bureaucracy.
Smittycity42 ( talk) 04:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)smittycity42
The article says "The Sumerian script was so complicated that it required specialists who had trained for their entire lives in the discipline of writing to manipulate it."
Is Sumerian really more complicated than, say, English (which, after all, has no systematic rules for spelling)?
I suspect the real problem is this: in a primarily non-literate culture, where only a few people learn to read and write, these few people will form a class that is very hard to enter. After, most of us here spent years learning to read and write; if schools weren't widespread this would seem like a mammoth undertaking. But that doesn't mean we "trained for our entire lives" in order to read and write. It just feels that way when we're in high school or college. :-)
Hmm, but I guess if the life expectancy were about 30-40 years, it would be closer to true...
Anyway: I'm questioning whether Sumerian is really particularly complicated as written languages go.
John Baez ( talk) 02:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I don't mean to be a pain, but in the Weber section it says:
"However, he also emphasized that bureaucracy becomes inefficient when a decision must be adopted to an individual case."
I think there's a grammar/spelling issue here. Shouldn't it either be adapted to an individual case or adopted for an individual case?
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebeccawidom ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
This recent edit removed the {{Over detailed|section}} tag, suggesting that the material was in fact "pretty short". Given that this chunky section deals with just one writer—the only one to get such treatment in this broad-brush article—wouldn't WP:UNDUE be more appropriate? If Crozier does have sufficient significance over the topic to warrant an individual mention then a WP:SS template would do, otherwise treat him in the same way as the others, with a "see also" link at the foot of the page.
Views? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 10:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} the term "bureaucracy" was first coined by Vincent de Gournay, a french economist in 1745. he stated,"we have an illnes in france which bids fair to play havoc with us; this illness is called Burreaumania." In French word 'bureau' means a desk.
Er.avijit.pandey ( talk) 12:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
A series of recent edits have removed almost the entire content of the article: [4]. I am not sure if this improved the article, much content was unreferenced, but was roughly correct and useful (for example, the Weber section). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The initial "the purpose of a bureaucracy" blub reads more like an advertisement and less like something that distinguishes a bureaucracy from an non-bureaucracy. Heck, the sentence would not lose any meaning if "bureaucracy" was changed to "form of government" or "organizational methodology". The distinguishing characteristic between a bureaucratic and a non-bureaucratic organization seems to be the the former has its activities or governance split across a number of "bureaus", "departments", or other groupings. Admittedly, today, it seems like an obvious necessity for larger organizations. Still, the initial text should list the defining characteristic. Mike Mondy ( talk) 21:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC) Mike
I just removed the material below from the article, because it's biased and has no sources. I think it would be fine to add something like this back once it's properly sourced, and balanced by differing points of view. If nobody else does that I will try to come back and do it myself; I can't do it right now though. Sue Gardner ( talk) 20:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
-- You raise a good point, but I think the negative connotations of the word bureaucracy should be a section in the overall topic, rather than characterising the entire topic. Many people don't like paying tax but you wouldn't expect the opening sentence of the Wiki entry for 'Tax' to present it negatively; you would expect an objective presentation of the topic. This Wiki page opens with bureaucracy being defined as creating red tape and other negative connotations. kabl00ey ( talk) 05:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
It seems the article have been absurdly pruned to only contain Max Weber. Max Weber isn't bureaucracy. He didn't invent it, and presumably he didn't even invent the term, he is one of the main founding sociologers modelling it. The article should contain:
Personally I believe the Romans invented bureaucracy based on my observations from reading the Asterix cartoon, but an alternative theory is that the Roman Catholic church modified it extensively, and then offered it as a holy gift to ruling almost-christian barbarian kings in migration age Europe. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 13:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
It appears as almost every edit in January is vandalism. Perhaps some in December as well. Jokeyxero ( talk) 18:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This article is terrible. This is an important subject for people to understand, Wikipedia contributors shouls do better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.76.223 ( talk) 23:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
The article begins as if "bureaucracy" were a term referring exclusively to public ("governmental") organizations. Regardless of how one views bureaucracy, all organization theorists worthy of the name now recognize that "bureaucracy" refers to the structure of the organization, whether publicly- or privately-owned. I have more to say on this topic much further down the page. Landrumkelly ( talk) 12:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the page had some flaws back in January 2011, but at least it contained useful material. Since then, it's been pruned out of existence. Revert and try again? 190.42.170.72 ( talk) 18:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
This sentence from the introductory paragraph: " In other words, a government bureaucracy carries out the decisions of the legislature or democratically-elected representation of a state."
It implies that bureaucracies only exist in democratic systems of government, and do not exist in non-democratic forms (ie dictatorships, communism, etc). CDB-Man ( talk) 19:29, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
-----
Please sign your posts with the four tildes: ~~~~
Bureaucracies exist an any large organization. They are needed to carry out the functions of the organization.
Does a dictator not need a bureaucracy to implement his/her policies, such as propaganda or taxation? Does a Socialist government not need a bureaucracy to run all of their social programs, such as health care or or social security?
My quote from the article, " In other words, a government bureaucracy carries out the decisions of the legislature or democratically-elected representation of a state." the quote is implying bureaucracies ONLY exist to carry out the decisions of a legislature or democratic representation, to the exclusion on non-legislature/democratic governments (ie dictatorships/autocrats). But like I described, any large organization, such as a government, needs a bureaucracy to implement its functions.
CDB-Man ( talk) 07:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC); Edited: CDB-Man ( talk) 07:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
this article has been trimmed to the point that it contains almost no relevant information, and is a hollow shell. it needs a fresh start, with accurate, cited information. Aunva6 ( talk) 06:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I wrote a solid outline of the subject with accurate, cited information. This included a description of bureaucracy, etymology of the historical origins of the word, historical examples of bureaucracies, and theoretical approaches to understanding this system of government. Everything was carefully sourced.
This revision was deleted by the site's editors. However, you can still find it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Bureaucracy&oldid=517350592
Feel free to expand and improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.193.65 ( talk) 06:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
The areas that might benefit from updating is "The German sociologist, Max Weber, argued that bureaucracy constitutes the most efficient..." is missing commas before and after "Max Webers" name.
"Here, too, the sense was pejorative, with Irish novelist Lady Morgan referring to "the Bureaucratie, or office tyranny, by which Ireland has so long been governed."[19] There doesn't need to be a comma after pejorative. Mel29g ( talk) 16:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Bureaucracy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
My plan for contributing to the Bureaucracy article in Wikipedia is focused on adding a section on women in bureaucracy. This is a widely discussed topic in academia with many scholarly conversations to back it up. With my plan I will be adding on a section to the end of the article that expands the term of bureaucracy and how it relates to women/ women in charge. I plan to start with statistics of women in the bureaucracy and go into explaining the barriers that women face when trying to rise to positions of power in bureaucratic agencies. I will also talk about the effect of the lack of representation of women in the bureaucracy in terms of passive and active representation including policy areas women represent and what in turn it means for their constituents. My main source, “Some Ceilings Have More Cracks: Representative Bureaucracy in Federal Agencies” by Amy Smith, [1] outlines the number of women in bureaucratic agencies and the glass ceiling they experience. I will use this article to get statistics on the number of women in the federal bureaucracy and how it relates to the number of men. I will use my other sources to get information on how women struggle to reach positions of power in bureaucratic agencies. One of my sources proposes a theory that women are put in charge of agencies that are seen as weak or set for failure. It includes proper research to support this concept. AfWill ( talk) 01:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
There is almost no mention of PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS AS BUREAUCRACIES! What there is is buried deep in the article. I have taught in two graduate programs in public administration since the early 1980s (and in undergraduate programs in public administration since 1977), as well as offered the occasional course on modern organizations/organizational behavior in a business department. The bureaucratic form of social organization is ubiquitous in modern society, and everything that Weber wrote about publicly-owned organizations can as easily be applied to private organizations. My view is not "marxist." Among organization theorists (and I am one, along with being a political theorist) such a perspective is mainstream. The article says next to nothing about (typically large) private organizations as being inherently bureaucratic, but the way the article leads off suggests that bureaucracies are inherently public in nature. They are NOT. This results in a gross distortion of readers' understanding of modern organizations, almost all of which are bureaucratic in nature. Lest I be misunderstood, both private and public organizations tend to be bureaucratic in nature. Weber's descriptors of "bureaucracy" are the same, whether the organization is publicly-owned or privately-owned. We can argue here forever about both the positive and negative aspects of bureaucratization in culture, but we must first make clear to readers that bureaucracy in itself is not inherently something having to do with the public sphere. It is NOT. --J. Landrum Kelly, Ph.D., (Florida) Landrumkelly ( talk) 12:31, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
References
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AfWill.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 16:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Emerging in nearest future AI and self-aware, self-conscious AI will lead to birth of self-making AI. That may have a potential of creating pure AI micro and macro societies. A human competition with AI is not only possible, it is one of the scenarios of AI developing and auto-recognizing itself in human society.
As such AI very unlikely inherit or create a system of bureaucracy for its own society. Every innovation or invention that AI brings to life would go seamlessly from idea to production without relying on a bureaucratic system , registering, reporting and so on.
At the peaceful stage of competition between human society and that of AI society - human system of bureaucracy might be severely diminished or even destroyed - in order to be able to compete with non-bureaucratic AI society(societies).
A human bureaucracy system might experience a severe blow as a result of such competition. AI would minimize time between making a decision and executing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guerraliberta ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
Any opinions on whether The Utopia of Rules should be given weight here? It's cited 683 times in Google Scholar as of this writing. [5] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 17:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Bureaucratic 2405:204:5215:4BDB:0:0:1854:E0A0 ( talk) 16:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Discribe the features of bureacracy 2409:4073:30E:E8C7:0:0:1F07:D8A0 ( talk) 15:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
The use of Ashanti Empire, the United Kingdom, and France as the three examples of "Modern" bureaucracy is odd. While the Ashanti Empire is worthy of greater recognition, I don't think that its bureaucratic systems and processes are sufficiently understood to make meaningful contributions to our understanding of bureaucracy itself. In place of (or in addition to) the Ashanti Empire, I would argue that the United States has relevancy to the study of bureaucracy and would be of interest to readers. Elements of interest would be the history of the federal government bureaucracy during the times of the founding fathers and the patronage of Andrew Jackson, the development of the merit system through mechanisms like the Pendleton Act, and the difficulty in measuring the size of the American bureaucracy.
Another interesting element of modern bureaucracy would be the rise of multinational organizations such as the EU and the United Nations. JSF2009 ( talk) 22:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)JSF2009