This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The line: "Note on cup size vs. volume, in US fluid ounces and cubic centimeters - A = 8 fl. oz. = 236 cm³, B = 13 fl. oz. = 384 cm³, C = 21 fl. oz. = 621 cm³, D = 27 fl. oz. = 798 cm³"is totally non-sensical. Cup sizes do not have specific volumes, they are proportional to the band size. A 34D, for example, has a smaller volume than a 36D or a 38D, therefore to say that a "D cup" has a volume of 27 fl.oz without giving a band size, makes no sense whatsoever and is extremely misleading. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 19:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
In a study[59][11] of 103 women seeking breast-reduction surgery (reduction mammaplasty) for pain, one woman never wore a bra, but of the remaining 102 all were wearing an incorrect bra size. The underband was too tight and the cup size too large. The larger the woman, the worse the fit. The result was a bra that compresses the breast and distorts it by compressing the breast against the skin of the chest wall.
This statement goes against all other evidence. The most common fitting problem and the cause of back pain is the opposite of what is stated here - ie wearing too big a back size and too small a cup size. I am certain that this must be a mistake, because it simply contradicts the way that bras work. Bras are designed to support the breasts through the tension of the band, it is when the band is too large that back pain occurs, because the back rides up and the cups weigh down on the shoulder straps, causing nerves to be pinched and the wearer to hunch forward. The breasts would not be compressed by a too-small band - that would only result from too-small cups.
The NHS Royal Free Hospital reported of their patients referred for breast reduction: "To date, 100% of those fitted have been wearing the wrong size, overestimating the width of their back and underestimating cup size. This results in the weight of the breasts being carried by the shoulders rather than supported around the chest, and contributes to back pain." Bra fittings for breast reduction patients at the Royal Free Hospital. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 01:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the abstract from the study which is quoted as [11] above, "An investigation of the suitability of bra fit in women referred for reduction mammaplasty"
Reduction mammaplasty is rationed in NHS plastic surgery provision, despite abundant evidence that most women who undergo this operation obtain significant improvement in their physical health and quality of life. We suspected that women seeking reduction mammaplasty often wear ill-fitting bras, which may exacerbate some of their symptoms. Therefore, we studied 103 women who attended a nurse-run pre-assessment clinic, asking them what size bra they currently wore and then measuring them to see whether their bra size was correct. We also questioned bra manufacturers, designers and shop bra fitters about bra manufacture, sizing and fitting techniques, and we reviewed these findings. Of the 102 women suitable for inclusion in the study, all wore the wrong size bra. Their mean ‘claimed’ back measurement was 36 inches (range: 30–42 in.) and their mean cup size was F (range: C–J). We found that all but one underestimated their back measurement (by a mean of 4 in.; range: −2–10 in.) and overestimated their cup size (by a mean of three sizes; range: one size smaller to seven sizes larger) when compared with manufacturers' fitting guidelines. Multiple regression analysis used to assess the relationships of various factors to incorrect bra sizing showed a strong link (Pearson CORRELATION=0.54; P<0.001) between obesity and inaccurate back measurement. The reasons why women with breast hypertrophy wear incorrectly fitting bras are discussed. We conclude that obesity, breast hypertrophy, fashion and bra-fitting practices combine to make those women who most need supportive bras the least likely to get accurately fitted bras, so exacerbating the symptoms for which they seek surgery.
It becomes clear upon reading the abstract that the researchers did not have even the most basic knowledge of bra fitting required to undertake this study. They describe the process of comparing the bra sizes worn to the patients' measurements, rather than examining how their bras actually fitted, something which any bra fitting expert will know to be totally futile. It seems that they are referring to the conventional measuring system which requires the addition of several inches to the underbust measurement, usually 4 or 5, which is inaccurate to say the least. The majority of women require a band size two or more sizes smaller than that dictated by the measurement, so no wonder they were thought to be wearing a band which was too tight.
This study is totally flawed and should not be included. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 02:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
As per the Manual of style, both measurement systems must be used in this article. The focus is otherwise far too American/British rather than Intl. Luke w ( talk) 20:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I've copied this from my talk page, to explain the 2 reversions that I've done recently. -- AliceJMarkham ( talk) 01:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I intended to make the images a consistent size, not smaller, by adding the 140px dimension to them. I should have used a larger dimension. In reverting my change, you also removed a new image I'd added. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 18:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
User:Btphelps has, for the 3rd time, added a photo of a woman wearing a top without a bra. Given that this article is specifically about bras, I don't see the image as relevant to the article. I have not reverted the addition, or removed the inappropriate forced pixel sizing from the image. I'd like to know if anyone else other than Btphelps thinks that the image belongs on this page. -- AliceJMarkham ( talk) 11:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Isnt the unatractiveness of a bra-less woman the point of the picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.84.8.64 ( talk) 20:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
The section on shoulder pain opens with a sentence stating that the weight of the breasts is meant to be supported primarily by the shoulder straps. Not only is this simply not true, it's also contradicted by an earlier paragraph linked to by the sentence in order to support this claim, as well as a later paragraph and at least one of the references included. As the remainder of the article and the reference state, the weight is meant to be carried by the chest band.
However, since this incorrect statement appears to be the basis for the entire paragraph, I'm not clear on how to rewrite it. -- Belthazar451 ( talk) 14:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I dont mind the image in general, but could one find another girl wearing a bra without the underarm hair? It degrades the article , sort-of... JasonHockeyGuy ( talk) 00:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
This section was very fragmented. I tried to bring some order to it but it is still somewhat choppy. More later. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 23:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section since the ONLY citation was a breast augmentation website and it had the average size of women in the US as a "B" cup, something which is clearly biased in that it would be in their best interest and the site doesn't clearly disclose their sources. I did find a TIME article, albeit 3 years old but still more current, citing that the average breast size was going up to the C range. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1208335,00.html?cnn=yes Here's another, even more recent news article from a different, legitimate, news source which also makes the same statement that the current American bra size had gone up to C http://archive.columbiatribune.com/2008/Feb/20080210Puls004.asp Darqcyde ( talk) 17:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The second line in the intro states "Since the early 19th century, it has replaced the corset as the most widely accepted method for supporting a woman's breasts." Is this true? Is it a mistake and is meant to read "Since the early 20th century..."? Through the end of the 19th century, the corset was still in its heyday, right? LordAmeth ( talk) 20:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we edit the image of "sexy sam" or whatever it's called (the one that "illustrates" a caption about difficulty finding correct bra sizes) by cropping it just the upper torso and neck? Showing the woman's face adds nothing and might violate some policy or other, and the undone jeans are just a pointless distraction. None of the other images are particularly salacious, but this one, well, is. Huw Powell ( talk) 23:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh come on, the photo of the woman with her jeans unzipped is clearly non-encyclopedic. It's titllating. We don't need to see her in such a state of come-hither undress in an article about bras. Sure, Wikipedia is uncensored but we also require that the photos illustrating articles are appropriate to the subject of the article. This smacks of some teen's pervy pic stash. It is clearly sexual. If the article was 'bras as erotic clothing' I wouldn't object to its inclusion. But it is inappropriate here as it stands. If it were cropped to take out the jeans I would not object to its inclusion. 86.133.210.177 ( talk) 08:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as a support garment, like the brassiere, but designed for the buttocks rather than the breasts? If so, what is it called? 70.99.104.234 ( talk) 22:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure where in the article this would fit but I have noticed a recent growing trend of smaller bras and also more designs aimed at the juniors demographic. I can't find hard and fast research to back this up, but it's pretty obvious with brands such as Victoria's Secret Pink, American Eagle Aerie, Candies, and Maidenform's Charmed line.
Something should also be included about the potential for variance between various manufacturers' bras of the same nominal size (e.g, a Victoria's Secret 34C may be the same, dimensionally as a Warners 34C of a similar design. Brendanmccabe ( talk) 17:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I've just heard of someone whose school (GED program) is ordering her to wear a bra. Any additions to the article on this topic would be appreciated. - 75.57.7.223 ( talk) 00:42, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
This article suffers from strong Western, and especially U.S. bias. There is hardly any mention of the prevalence and attitude towards bras in non-Western countries. More could be said of the prevalence of Bra wearing in Asia, Africa, South America, etc. While the bra may be a commonly worn and accepted garment in Western countries, it is not as common in non-western world. -- 67.103.38.211 ( talk) 22:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the original post I'm incontinent and wear Tena Slip Maxi ( talk) 15:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Seems like more of a technical "how to". Not typically encyclopedic for a layperson. Mattnad ( talk) 19:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I've reviewed the current Construction and Fit section. Most of it is dedication to measurement and sizing and could go in the the forked article. I think we need to have a single paragraph for this section given the there's now a main article on the topic. Mattnad ( talk) 11:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed this section, Compression of the Lymphatic System. It blends standard information about the lymphatic system and mixes it with a couple of articles from fringe sources. As it happens, only a few sentences are about lymphatic system,
One citation [1] is from a commercial nutrition site discussing the risks of pressure on the lymphatic system while simultaneously trying to sell a solution. The only other citation [2] contains a rambling range of concerns and opinions about clothing being too tight and the risks. It appears to be self published since Ken Smith is the owner of the site Breastnotes.com and therefor fails WP:RS. Neither of these articles cite any medical research on the topic.
The rest of the section is about other issues/concerns already covered in other parts of the of the article and have nothing to do with compression of the Lymphatic system (although they are at least better sourced). It does not meaningfully contribute to the article. When it comes to health issues in particular, we should ensure that we have reliable sources that cite research and not opinion. Mattnad ( talk) 10:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Critics of that survey by Triumph however point out that the data used in this survey is flawed. Cupsizes above D are readily available in British stores, so a British woman with a larger cupsize is more likely to wear a well-fitting bra in her correct size. The German bra-fitting community Busenfreundinnen has been most vocal in this critism, pointing out that they frequently find that German women who need a UK-G-Cup (EU J) make do with a DD two bandsizes too large. They have also found that women who need D and DD cups are relatively likely to wear A and B cups, because the women themselves do not perceive their breasts as "large", a perception skewed by the multiple G-Cup women stuffing themselves into D and DDs. The members of the community also point out that any research based upon sales of DD+ plus bras in the various countries is bound to be flawed since a significant amount of women with larger cupsizes around the world order their bras online in British online shops.
The source of this is 1) statistical analysis of user data of the German forum 2) Bravissimo - according to one of their employees most of their online customers are from abroad. 79.216.119.151 ( talk) 21:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Ref #7 links to a canadian newspaper article about wikileaks and has nothing to do with bras. I'm not sure what the protocol is for this error (or potential vandalism?). -- Brendanmccabe ( talk) 19:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Reference to a study of thirty nulliparous women aged 18–26 years. It is an exploratory study to determine the need for in-depth study of back and chest-wall pain due to incorrect bra size. The study does not support the statement that "more than 80% of women wear the incorrect bra size" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.95.171 ( talk) 14:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
A lot of the "health" related information on this page seems dubious. Especially from this section:
A poorly-fitting bra can aggravate mastalagia (breast pain) in some women, while a well-fitted bra, especially a sports bra, can alleviate symptoms. Physicians recommend women seek a better-fitting support bra that provides better support. [1]
An informal survey conducted by Dr. Gregory Heigh, who practices traditional Chinese medicine and homeopathy in Tampa, Florida as a licensed acupuncturist, recommended that patients with breast pain take off their bras. "We did a bra and breast impact study, sending out questionnaires to the patients," Heigh says. "We've received 70 or 80 of them back so far, and the percentage of women who have said [taking off their bras] has helped is almost 100 percent." [2] There is some anecdotal evidence to support the idea that not wearing a bra alleviates breast pain. [2] [3]
The first paragraph is ok, but the second is just odd. Why should the results of an "informal" study from an acupuncturist be listed here? And after reading the first few sentences, it doesn't even make a lot of sense. Yes, maybe taking off your bra can reduce your breast pain, but maybe the reduction in breast pain was due to something completely unrelated, who knows? The results were self-reported. Anyway, this info is not well sourced and should be removed. This holds also for the "anecdotal" evidence that not wearing a bra reduces breast pain.
This article really does seem to have an anti-bra bias. I hate to dichotomize it that way, but that was the feeling I got when I read this article. It gives the overall impression of "bras are bad for your health and unnecessary to boot". Maybe I'm seeing something that's not really there, but that's still the impression I got when I read it.
As a bra-wearer, I have to say that I am pro-bra. I don't assume that means that every bra-wearer is pro-bra or even that every woman needs to wear one, but it seems to me that many women wear bras because they provide support and comfort. ScamperCat (meow) 01:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this template from the top of this page. While sociology is interested in social aspects of fashion and clothing, and there could be (or maybe is) sociological research on brassiere, by themselves they are not any more of interest to sociologists that most other pieces of clothing, or most material objects ( social facts) in general. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
It seems like all of the images in the article relate to specific text in the body except for the lead image and the photo of the Calvin Klein model. Obviously the lead image is fine since it's supposed to be a general illustration. The Calvin Klein photo, however, just seems to be a random addition which isn't illustrating anything in particular. I would suggest removing it or replacing it with something more related to the text. Also, the photo illustrating breast asymmetry seems to be perfectly symmetrical. Illustrating breast asymmetry with a photo of normal breasts is confusing. Kaldari ( talk) 20:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
That first image does not illustrate how a bra works. The women is pushing up her breasts with her arms. There are plenty of images out there where you can actually see a bra do it's job - why not use one of them? Oh yeah b/c this is wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.165.123 ( talk) 08:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we'd also need a picture showing a brassiere off one's body, or maybe one on a model in the shops? The picture demonstrating the function may be put together with it. And I do agree with replacing the current illustration. Roger Federer Xu ( talk) 00:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This article's history section has been rendered out of date due to recent a discovery: http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/18/2358921/600-year-old-linen-bras-found.html#.UAbbj7R5GSq
The bra is about 500 years older than previously thought. -- 74.0.139.105 ( talk) 15:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Why are there at least 3 separate places that the whole "some women wear them because they think they prevent sagging breasts, but actually that's not true" mentioned? We only need that once in the article. This is not the only instance of duplication in the article, but the one that stood out to me. Any suggestions about which section to keep? Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this article would be really enhanced by a consideration on wearing bras or going braless in different cultures. I'm sure it signals different cultural signs in countries in Asia, Africa, North America, South America or Europe. Going braless in France is probably more acceptable than in a more conservative country like Singapore. I don't think every country needs to be represented, just a sampling of the variety of social norms in different cultures. Newjerseyliz ( talk) 22:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
FYI, I have raised a query about this article at WT:MED. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 19:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
The lead image, as it currently stands, isn't the best image for a lead and should be changed if a better one can be found. Per WP:LEADIMAGE, "Lead images should be ... appropriate visual representations of the topic; they not only should be illustrating the topic specifically, but should also be the type of image that is used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works". The current lead image shows a woman pushing her breasts together with her upper arms while wearing a bra. It doesn't show how a bra itself changes breast shape (e.g., lifts, creates cleavage, supports, etc.) or illustrate the "anatomy" of a bra. An image that performs one of those two functions would be preferable over the current one. I'm going to see if I can hunt one down over at the Commons' category of images related to brassieres. Happy editing! — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Much more appropriate pic for lede pic. Sets better tone for all the rest of the article. (claps hands). Soranoch ( talk) 13:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I would like to see a citation for "In western cultures, about 10–25% of women do not wear a bra, either as a matter of preference or sometimes for health or comfort reasons." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.187.55.243 ( talk) 17:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"Various surveys have reported that from 75% to 95% of Western women wear bras.[11][108][109]"
or at least that would support 5-25% of Western women do not wear bras. Wearing a bra and not wearing a bra are mutually exclusive states, so you do not really need another citation to say this in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.97 ( talk) 23:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Even after cropping, so please will the people stop adding it back.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.140.42 ( talk) 12:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I would propose the photo below as an alternative:
The current photograph is low quality and has a price tag on it etc. etc. Mattnad ( talk) 16:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
There is no "broader consensus". You cannot use other articles to govern what happens here. There is a consensus here not to have such images. Also, the image on bustier is not on a human model. It is a mannequin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.181 ( talk) 21:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I have not attacked you. Above you freely called me an ass. I think if anything were to be called a personal attack, it would be that. However, I am not interested in making this personal, it is about the article. So more to the point, you call the non fuzzy lead image fuzzy, yet you do not say anything about the definitely fuzzy File:Young woman in dessous.jpg ? We should show how bras are advertized, and I believe one image, the famous Wonderbra advert which allegedly caused road traffic accidents when it was placed on billboards on roads, should be the image to stay. The other is superfluous.
If you can find some image of a women who is not air-brushed, malnourished eye candy in soft focus, and cut out all other parts of the image and focus on the garment, then this might be acceptable in my opinion, but I don't really anticipate any improvement from the current image. If by "pointiness" you mean the design of the bra is atypical, then perhaps a more typical design could be called an improvement. It looks normal to me though.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The line: "Note on cup size vs. volume, in US fluid ounces and cubic centimeters - A = 8 fl. oz. = 236 cm³, B = 13 fl. oz. = 384 cm³, C = 21 fl. oz. = 621 cm³, D = 27 fl. oz. = 798 cm³"is totally non-sensical. Cup sizes do not have specific volumes, they are proportional to the band size. A 34D, for example, has a smaller volume than a 36D or a 38D, therefore to say that a "D cup" has a volume of 27 fl.oz without giving a band size, makes no sense whatsoever and is extremely misleading. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 19:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
In a study[59][11] of 103 women seeking breast-reduction surgery (reduction mammaplasty) for pain, one woman never wore a bra, but of the remaining 102 all were wearing an incorrect bra size. The underband was too tight and the cup size too large. The larger the woman, the worse the fit. The result was a bra that compresses the breast and distorts it by compressing the breast against the skin of the chest wall.
This statement goes against all other evidence. The most common fitting problem and the cause of back pain is the opposite of what is stated here - ie wearing too big a back size and too small a cup size. I am certain that this must be a mistake, because it simply contradicts the way that bras work. Bras are designed to support the breasts through the tension of the band, it is when the band is too large that back pain occurs, because the back rides up and the cups weigh down on the shoulder straps, causing nerves to be pinched and the wearer to hunch forward. The breasts would not be compressed by a too-small band - that would only result from too-small cups.
The NHS Royal Free Hospital reported of their patients referred for breast reduction: "To date, 100% of those fitted have been wearing the wrong size, overestimating the width of their back and underestimating cup size. This results in the weight of the breasts being carried by the shoulders rather than supported around the chest, and contributes to back pain." Bra fittings for breast reduction patients at the Royal Free Hospital. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 01:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the abstract from the study which is quoted as [11] above, "An investigation of the suitability of bra fit in women referred for reduction mammaplasty"
Reduction mammaplasty is rationed in NHS plastic surgery provision, despite abundant evidence that most women who undergo this operation obtain significant improvement in their physical health and quality of life. We suspected that women seeking reduction mammaplasty often wear ill-fitting bras, which may exacerbate some of their symptoms. Therefore, we studied 103 women who attended a nurse-run pre-assessment clinic, asking them what size bra they currently wore and then measuring them to see whether their bra size was correct. We also questioned bra manufacturers, designers and shop bra fitters about bra manufacture, sizing and fitting techniques, and we reviewed these findings. Of the 102 women suitable for inclusion in the study, all wore the wrong size bra. Their mean ‘claimed’ back measurement was 36 inches (range: 30–42 in.) and their mean cup size was F (range: C–J). We found that all but one underestimated their back measurement (by a mean of 4 in.; range: −2–10 in.) and overestimated their cup size (by a mean of three sizes; range: one size smaller to seven sizes larger) when compared with manufacturers' fitting guidelines. Multiple regression analysis used to assess the relationships of various factors to incorrect bra sizing showed a strong link (Pearson CORRELATION=0.54; P<0.001) between obesity and inaccurate back measurement. The reasons why women with breast hypertrophy wear incorrectly fitting bras are discussed. We conclude that obesity, breast hypertrophy, fashion and bra-fitting practices combine to make those women who most need supportive bras the least likely to get accurately fitted bras, so exacerbating the symptoms for which they seek surgery.
It becomes clear upon reading the abstract that the researchers did not have even the most basic knowledge of bra fitting required to undertake this study. They describe the process of comparing the bra sizes worn to the patients' measurements, rather than examining how their bras actually fitted, something which any bra fitting expert will know to be totally futile. It seems that they are referring to the conventional measuring system which requires the addition of several inches to the underbust measurement, usually 4 or 5, which is inaccurate to say the least. The majority of women require a band size two or more sizes smaller than that dictated by the measurement, so no wonder they were thought to be wearing a band which was too tight.
This study is totally flawed and should not be included. Zoggi the mouse ( talk) 02:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
As per the Manual of style, both measurement systems must be used in this article. The focus is otherwise far too American/British rather than Intl. Luke w ( talk) 20:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I've copied this from my talk page, to explain the 2 reversions that I've done recently. -- AliceJMarkham ( talk) 01:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I intended to make the images a consistent size, not smaller, by adding the 140px dimension to them. I should have used a larger dimension. In reverting my change, you also removed a new image I'd added. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 18:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
User:Btphelps has, for the 3rd time, added a photo of a woman wearing a top without a bra. Given that this article is specifically about bras, I don't see the image as relevant to the article. I have not reverted the addition, or removed the inappropriate forced pixel sizing from the image. I'd like to know if anyone else other than Btphelps thinks that the image belongs on this page. -- AliceJMarkham ( talk) 11:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Isnt the unatractiveness of a bra-less woman the point of the picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.84.8.64 ( talk) 20:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
The section on shoulder pain opens with a sentence stating that the weight of the breasts is meant to be supported primarily by the shoulder straps. Not only is this simply not true, it's also contradicted by an earlier paragraph linked to by the sentence in order to support this claim, as well as a later paragraph and at least one of the references included. As the remainder of the article and the reference state, the weight is meant to be carried by the chest band.
However, since this incorrect statement appears to be the basis for the entire paragraph, I'm not clear on how to rewrite it. -- Belthazar451 ( talk) 14:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I dont mind the image in general, but could one find another girl wearing a bra without the underarm hair? It degrades the article , sort-of... JasonHockeyGuy ( talk) 00:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
This section was very fragmented. I tried to bring some order to it but it is still somewhat choppy. More later. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 23:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section since the ONLY citation was a breast augmentation website and it had the average size of women in the US as a "B" cup, something which is clearly biased in that it would be in their best interest and the site doesn't clearly disclose their sources. I did find a TIME article, albeit 3 years old but still more current, citing that the average breast size was going up to the C range. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1208335,00.html?cnn=yes Here's another, even more recent news article from a different, legitimate, news source which also makes the same statement that the current American bra size had gone up to C http://archive.columbiatribune.com/2008/Feb/20080210Puls004.asp Darqcyde ( talk) 17:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The second line in the intro states "Since the early 19th century, it has replaced the corset as the most widely accepted method for supporting a woman's breasts." Is this true? Is it a mistake and is meant to read "Since the early 20th century..."? Through the end of the 19th century, the corset was still in its heyday, right? LordAmeth ( talk) 20:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we edit the image of "sexy sam" or whatever it's called (the one that "illustrates" a caption about difficulty finding correct bra sizes) by cropping it just the upper torso and neck? Showing the woman's face adds nothing and might violate some policy or other, and the undone jeans are just a pointless distraction. None of the other images are particularly salacious, but this one, well, is. Huw Powell ( talk) 23:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh come on, the photo of the woman with her jeans unzipped is clearly non-encyclopedic. It's titllating. We don't need to see her in such a state of come-hither undress in an article about bras. Sure, Wikipedia is uncensored but we also require that the photos illustrating articles are appropriate to the subject of the article. This smacks of some teen's pervy pic stash. It is clearly sexual. If the article was 'bras as erotic clothing' I wouldn't object to its inclusion. But it is inappropriate here as it stands. If it were cropped to take out the jeans I would not object to its inclusion. 86.133.210.177 ( talk) 08:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as a support garment, like the brassiere, but designed for the buttocks rather than the breasts? If so, what is it called? 70.99.104.234 ( talk) 22:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure where in the article this would fit but I have noticed a recent growing trend of smaller bras and also more designs aimed at the juniors demographic. I can't find hard and fast research to back this up, but it's pretty obvious with brands such as Victoria's Secret Pink, American Eagle Aerie, Candies, and Maidenform's Charmed line.
Something should also be included about the potential for variance between various manufacturers' bras of the same nominal size (e.g, a Victoria's Secret 34C may be the same, dimensionally as a Warners 34C of a similar design. Brendanmccabe ( talk) 17:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I've just heard of someone whose school (GED program) is ordering her to wear a bra. Any additions to the article on this topic would be appreciated. - 75.57.7.223 ( talk) 00:42, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
This article suffers from strong Western, and especially U.S. bias. There is hardly any mention of the prevalence and attitude towards bras in non-Western countries. More could be said of the prevalence of Bra wearing in Asia, Africa, South America, etc. While the bra may be a commonly worn and accepted garment in Western countries, it is not as common in non-western world. -- 67.103.38.211 ( talk) 22:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the original post I'm incontinent and wear Tena Slip Maxi ( talk) 15:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Seems like more of a technical "how to". Not typically encyclopedic for a layperson. Mattnad ( talk) 19:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I've reviewed the current Construction and Fit section. Most of it is dedication to measurement and sizing and could go in the the forked article. I think we need to have a single paragraph for this section given the there's now a main article on the topic. Mattnad ( talk) 11:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed this section, Compression of the Lymphatic System. It blends standard information about the lymphatic system and mixes it with a couple of articles from fringe sources. As it happens, only a few sentences are about lymphatic system,
One citation [1] is from a commercial nutrition site discussing the risks of pressure on the lymphatic system while simultaneously trying to sell a solution. The only other citation [2] contains a rambling range of concerns and opinions about clothing being too tight and the risks. It appears to be self published since Ken Smith is the owner of the site Breastnotes.com and therefor fails WP:RS. Neither of these articles cite any medical research on the topic.
The rest of the section is about other issues/concerns already covered in other parts of the of the article and have nothing to do with compression of the Lymphatic system (although they are at least better sourced). It does not meaningfully contribute to the article. When it comes to health issues in particular, we should ensure that we have reliable sources that cite research and not opinion. Mattnad ( talk) 10:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Critics of that survey by Triumph however point out that the data used in this survey is flawed. Cupsizes above D are readily available in British stores, so a British woman with a larger cupsize is more likely to wear a well-fitting bra in her correct size. The German bra-fitting community Busenfreundinnen has been most vocal in this critism, pointing out that they frequently find that German women who need a UK-G-Cup (EU J) make do with a DD two bandsizes too large. They have also found that women who need D and DD cups are relatively likely to wear A and B cups, because the women themselves do not perceive their breasts as "large", a perception skewed by the multiple G-Cup women stuffing themselves into D and DDs. The members of the community also point out that any research based upon sales of DD+ plus bras in the various countries is bound to be flawed since a significant amount of women with larger cupsizes around the world order their bras online in British online shops.
The source of this is 1) statistical analysis of user data of the German forum 2) Bravissimo - according to one of their employees most of their online customers are from abroad. 79.216.119.151 ( talk) 21:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Ref #7 links to a canadian newspaper article about wikileaks and has nothing to do with bras. I'm not sure what the protocol is for this error (or potential vandalism?). -- Brendanmccabe ( talk) 19:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Reference to a study of thirty nulliparous women aged 18–26 years. It is an exploratory study to determine the need for in-depth study of back and chest-wall pain due to incorrect bra size. The study does not support the statement that "more than 80% of women wear the incorrect bra size" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.95.171 ( talk) 14:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
A lot of the "health" related information on this page seems dubious. Especially from this section:
A poorly-fitting bra can aggravate mastalagia (breast pain) in some women, while a well-fitted bra, especially a sports bra, can alleviate symptoms. Physicians recommend women seek a better-fitting support bra that provides better support. [1]
An informal survey conducted by Dr. Gregory Heigh, who practices traditional Chinese medicine and homeopathy in Tampa, Florida as a licensed acupuncturist, recommended that patients with breast pain take off their bras. "We did a bra and breast impact study, sending out questionnaires to the patients," Heigh says. "We've received 70 or 80 of them back so far, and the percentage of women who have said [taking off their bras] has helped is almost 100 percent." [2] There is some anecdotal evidence to support the idea that not wearing a bra alleviates breast pain. [2] [3]
The first paragraph is ok, but the second is just odd. Why should the results of an "informal" study from an acupuncturist be listed here? And after reading the first few sentences, it doesn't even make a lot of sense. Yes, maybe taking off your bra can reduce your breast pain, but maybe the reduction in breast pain was due to something completely unrelated, who knows? The results were self-reported. Anyway, this info is not well sourced and should be removed. This holds also for the "anecdotal" evidence that not wearing a bra reduces breast pain.
This article really does seem to have an anti-bra bias. I hate to dichotomize it that way, but that was the feeling I got when I read this article. It gives the overall impression of "bras are bad for your health and unnecessary to boot". Maybe I'm seeing something that's not really there, but that's still the impression I got when I read it.
As a bra-wearer, I have to say that I am pro-bra. I don't assume that means that every bra-wearer is pro-bra or even that every woman needs to wear one, but it seems to me that many women wear bras because they provide support and comfort. ScamperCat (meow) 01:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this template from the top of this page. While sociology is interested in social aspects of fashion and clothing, and there could be (or maybe is) sociological research on brassiere, by themselves they are not any more of interest to sociologists that most other pieces of clothing, or most material objects ( social facts) in general. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
It seems like all of the images in the article relate to specific text in the body except for the lead image and the photo of the Calvin Klein model. Obviously the lead image is fine since it's supposed to be a general illustration. The Calvin Klein photo, however, just seems to be a random addition which isn't illustrating anything in particular. I would suggest removing it or replacing it with something more related to the text. Also, the photo illustrating breast asymmetry seems to be perfectly symmetrical. Illustrating breast asymmetry with a photo of normal breasts is confusing. Kaldari ( talk) 20:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
That first image does not illustrate how a bra works. The women is pushing up her breasts with her arms. There are plenty of images out there where you can actually see a bra do it's job - why not use one of them? Oh yeah b/c this is wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.165.123 ( talk) 08:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we'd also need a picture showing a brassiere off one's body, or maybe one on a model in the shops? The picture demonstrating the function may be put together with it. And I do agree with replacing the current illustration. Roger Federer Xu ( talk) 00:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This article's history section has been rendered out of date due to recent a discovery: http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/18/2358921/600-year-old-linen-bras-found.html#.UAbbj7R5GSq
The bra is about 500 years older than previously thought. -- 74.0.139.105 ( talk) 15:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Why are there at least 3 separate places that the whole "some women wear them because they think they prevent sagging breasts, but actually that's not true" mentioned? We only need that once in the article. This is not the only instance of duplication in the article, but the one that stood out to me. Any suggestions about which section to keep? Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this article would be really enhanced by a consideration on wearing bras or going braless in different cultures. I'm sure it signals different cultural signs in countries in Asia, Africa, North America, South America or Europe. Going braless in France is probably more acceptable than in a more conservative country like Singapore. I don't think every country needs to be represented, just a sampling of the variety of social norms in different cultures. Newjerseyliz ( talk) 22:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
FYI, I have raised a query about this article at WT:MED. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 19:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
The lead image, as it currently stands, isn't the best image for a lead and should be changed if a better one can be found. Per WP:LEADIMAGE, "Lead images should be ... appropriate visual representations of the topic; they not only should be illustrating the topic specifically, but should also be the type of image that is used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works". The current lead image shows a woman pushing her breasts together with her upper arms while wearing a bra. It doesn't show how a bra itself changes breast shape (e.g., lifts, creates cleavage, supports, etc.) or illustrate the "anatomy" of a bra. An image that performs one of those two functions would be preferable over the current one. I'm going to see if I can hunt one down over at the Commons' category of images related to brassieres. Happy editing! — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Much more appropriate pic for lede pic. Sets better tone for all the rest of the article. (claps hands). Soranoch ( talk) 13:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I would like to see a citation for "In western cultures, about 10–25% of women do not wear a bra, either as a matter of preference or sometimes for health or comfort reasons." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.187.55.243 ( talk) 17:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"Various surveys have reported that from 75% to 95% of Western women wear bras.[11][108][109]"
or at least that would support 5-25% of Western women do not wear bras. Wearing a bra and not wearing a bra are mutually exclusive states, so you do not really need another citation to say this in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.97 ( talk) 23:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Even after cropping, so please will the people stop adding it back.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.140.42 ( talk) 12:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I would propose the photo below as an alternative:
The current photograph is low quality and has a price tag on it etc. etc. Mattnad ( talk) 16:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
There is no "broader consensus". You cannot use other articles to govern what happens here. There is a consensus here not to have such images. Also, the image on bustier is not on a human model. It is a mannequin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.181 ( talk) 21:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I have not attacked you. Above you freely called me an ass. I think if anything were to be called a personal attack, it would be that. However, I am not interested in making this personal, it is about the article. So more to the point, you call the non fuzzy lead image fuzzy, yet you do not say anything about the definitely fuzzy File:Young woman in dessous.jpg ? We should show how bras are advertized, and I believe one image, the famous Wonderbra advert which allegedly caused road traffic accidents when it was placed on billboards on roads, should be the image to stay. The other is superfluous.
If you can find some image of a women who is not air-brushed, malnourished eye candy in soft focus, and cut out all other parts of the image and focus on the garment, then this might be acceptable in my opinion, but I don't really anticipate any improvement from the current image. If by "pointiness" you mean the design of the bra is atypical, then perhaps a more typical design could be called an improvement. It looks normal to me though.