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Not sure this issue is entirely worth bothering over but here's the opinion of Robert I. Frost, who's a scholar of the military history of North-Eastern Europe in the 17th century (and who wrote the book After the Deluge cited in this article). AFAIK Frost can read all the major languages of the documents of this time and area, yet he has no particular national affiliation that I'm aware of. I'm sure there's something to offend everybody here. Frost uses "Wilno".
The linguistic complexity of northeastern Europe and the political changes which have taken place since 1721 mean that several variants of place names exist, and the preference for one form over others is inevitably controversial. Since whatever choice is made will upset somebody, I have tried to balance consistency with the requirements of writing for a largely anglophone readership. Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia). Otherwise I have mainly preferred the form as it appears most frequently in contemporary documents. The greatest problems are posed by Livonia and Estonia, where I have preferred German to Estonian and Latvian forms, and Poland-Lithuania, where I have used the Polish form except for Royal Prussia (thus Danzig, not Gdańsk) and the Ukraine (which in this book denotes the palatinates of Kiev, Volhynia, Bratslav and Chernihiv), where I have used the Ukrainian forms. I have used the term 'Muscovy' to refer to the Russian state until 1667, when the acquisition of the right-bank Ukraine marked the start of the transition to the modern Russian empire. The choices are made entirely on academic grounds. Where strict adherence to these principles would involve absurdities, or where a particular form is solidly grounded in the English-language scholarship, I have departed from them. Thus the battle of Fraustadt (1706) does not become the battle of Wschowa, and I prefer Brest (Litovsk) (the Russian form) to Brześć (Litewski) (Polish). Nationalists may curse me and pedants may excommunicate me if they wish, but I am not writing for them. (Robert I. Frost The Northern Wars 1558-1721, Longman, 2000), Preface, page VIII
-- Folantin ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Folantin, excuse the related digression. I would like to focus on Frost's preface to his Northern Wars 1558-1721, and this sentence..."Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia)." Perhaps it would behoove us to seek some consistency on English WP and follow his example in other places as well. There are a plethora of articles that insist that "Kraków" (replete with diacritic) is the correct historical usage in English. Would Frost's example be well served by changing this toponym back to Cracow? Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Folantin, thanks for the interesting addition from Frost - but remember that no amount of logic and evidence will change the opinion of a nationalist true believer. For some, Vilnius was forever 100% pure Lithuanian Vilnius, likely created that way when the universe begun. I've had a Lithuanian editor tell me that their heart bleeds when they see or hear the string "Wilno". What can you discuss when presented with such mindsets? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
With no disrespect meant to Folantin or anyone else, an academic opinion is above all an opinion. It is especially relished when it concurs with one's own viewpoint on any given subject. I seem to recall that the academic opinion of Norman Davies (who is being cited as one scholar for this move), was hardly worth the ink it was printed on when speaking of Jozef Pilsudski: "He condidered himself a Lithuanian of Polish culture". Davies' scholarly "opinion" was not embraced on that occasion. I forget if it was because his opinion was considered this or that. Dr. Dan ( talk) 21:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
<-- Well, since you seem convinced, as soon as you change your vote above to "Support" moving this to Battle of Wilno (1655)) we can talk about Pilsudski article. First thing's first though. radek ( talk) 01:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Quote: "For example, we have articles called Gdańsk, Volgograd and Vilnius, these being the modern names of these cities, although their former names (Danzig, Stalingrad, Wilno) are used when referring to the appropriate historical periods, including in article names such as Battle of Stalingrad and Free City of Danzig. " But note that the Wiki guideline text has trouble coming up with a Wilno example - because apparently Wilno is an exception to this general rule. Why? And despite what Dr. Dan says, we do have, for example Grand Duchy of Cracow. radek ( talk) 02:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I threw that Frost quotation into the mix to see what happened (it's been in the archives of my user sub-page for over a year now). I think it's interesting because I've rarely seen anyone bring actual academic discussion of naming conventions to these arguments. I have no plans to get heavily involved in the naming dispute here but I see clear parallels between Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius and the Gdansk/Danzig issue (as does Frost, we may presume), i.e. per the Talk:Gdansk/Vote, if Gdansk is Danzig between 1308 and 1945 then something similar might apply to Wilno/Vilnius. BTW I have no problem with Lithuanians [1]. FWIW Here's another quotation I found in my user page archives which may or not have a bearing on the wider Polish-Lithuanian arguments on Wikipedia:
An oral researcher, interviewing the local shoemaker in a village near Kaunas (Kowno) in 1885, recorded a most revealing conversation:
-What tribe do you belong to?
-I am a Catholic.
-That's not what I mean. I'm asking you whether you are a Pole or a Lithuanian.
-I am a Pole, and a Lithuanian as well.
-That is impossible. You have to be either one or the other.
-I speak Polish, the shoemaker said, and I also speak Lithuanian.
And that was the end of the interview.
(Norman Davies God's Playground: A History of Poland)
-- Folantin ( talk) 08:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
General comment: I'm just kicking a few ideas around. I'm doubt if I'll even vote. I see a lot of these talk page arguments but I rarely see any scholarly rationales for naming conventions brought up. Looking at a few of them, it seems Frost favours historical context (Wilno, Danzig) with obvious exceptions (Moscow, Warsaw). Davies argues likewise at great length (God's Playground Vol. 2 pp.510-517) concluding "Ideally the 'name' should always reflect the dominant cultural and political connections of the 'place' at the moment in question. If this involves talking in Chapter Three of 'Vratislav' , in Chapter Twenty of 'Breslau' and in Chapter Twenty-Three of 'Wrocław', the searcher after precision should not be deterred." On the other hand, Daniel Stone has a different take in The Polish-Lithuanian State 1386-1795, favouring the use of modern place names (with some notable exceptions) [4]: "The aim of this volume […] is to provide information useful to readers who are not specialists in Eastern European history. To assist such readers, geographical names usually appear in their year 2000 form […] Hence for example, Vilnius (not Wilno) and Lviv (not Lwów or Lvov). I have kept some place names in the form that is most familiar to English readers: Cracow (not Kraków), Vasa (not Waza) and Königsberg (not Kaliningrad)". But it's worth noting that, by the same token, Stone uses Gdańsk (not Danzig) and Wrocław (not Breslau or whatever). -- Folantin ( talk) 16:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Forget the usual naming conventions. A case like this calls for the application of WP:Seven rules of place naming. — AjaxSmack 03:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Look, read the rationale Frost gives again: "Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia). Otherwise I have mainly preferred the form as it appears most frequently in contemporary documents. The greatest problems are posed by Livonia and Estonia, where I have preferred German to Estonian and Latvian forms, and Poland-Lithuania, where I have used the Polish form except for Royal Prussia (thus Danzig, not Gdańsk)". -- Folantin ( talk) 18:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
From the highly specialist After the Deluge: Poland-Lithuania and the Second Northern War, 1655-1660. Read the rationale here [5]. It's pretty much the same as The Northern Wars except he adds, "With regards to cities and provinces whose ethnic composition has changed radically I have preferred as far as possible the form used by the dominant linguistic group in the seventeenth century." He uses Wilno and Danzig. -- Folantin ( talk) 12:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this page has devolved into sub conversations of sub controversies related to sub arguments influenced by sub personal disagreements, it might be worth while to step back and take look at the big picture. Basically there seems to be two criteria being used to determine the proper name of this article (and I'm not going to bother here with the obvious third one, that it's just all nationalism and bad faith, nor with the off topic fourth, fifth, and nth ones about the fact that the article on Fiji should be renamed to Matanitu Tu-Vaka-i-koya ko Viti) since Krakow is Krakow and not Cracow:
Folantin, in my understanding, has been arguing that it should be mostly 2), he has pointed out that yeah, there's some split in contemporary references, and that as a result what is important is WHY various others choose to use the names they do. He has explicitly provided Frost's rationale for using "Wilno" and has asked other editors to provide the same level of information for alternative sources. This request has been brushed aside by Deacon and others with a "everybody does this", "it's how you do an introduction" and "of course everyone has a rationale". Yet, no specific examples or explanations of other authors reasoning have been provided.
But at least in spirit, most editors here don't see it the same way and there seems to be a good bit of importance attached to 1). This has involved some vague assertions that there exist sources which show that in fact, everybody in the 17th... well, at least + or - 300 or 200 years around it - spoke Lithuanian-as-she-is-spoke-today, and that these sources can be produced but in the meantime the skeptics should read an article on toponyms or other subjects, and anyway, that should be sufficient. And there was Polonization in the 19th century. + or -. Another aspect of this argument is Matthead's assertion that he's never seen "Wilno" on an "old map". And he's right, no "Wilno". Here's a good collection of old maps: [6]. You can search through them and you won't see a "Wilno". Of course, nothing even closely resembling "Vilnius" either. Vilna. Vilno. Wilna. But hey, I'll admit it - not quite the the combination of the "W" and the "o" that we're looking for. But no "us" either. So if we do take criteria 1) seriously (despite Folantin's quite reasonable objections) then it's got to be one of those - not Vilnius.
And several editors have indicated that Vilna, or Vilno, (Wilna hasn't made it, but let's throw it's hat into the ring) would be an acceptable alternative. The thing is that the editors on the "support" side who said Vilna or Vilno was fine probably would retain the nature of their vote. But perhaps there are some editors on the "oppose" side who would change their view for Vilna? Specifically, Renata seems to have said that it might be a plausible alternative.
Anyways. Take this as an attempt to refocus the topic. radek ( talk) 10:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I too would like to thank Radek for taking the time to provide us with the "old maps" [7] , and the extra effort he made. Couldn't find Vilnius. But much more surprisingly, couldn't find Kraków either. Dr. Dan ( talk) 13:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The original city name is Vilnius and always was so. Wilno, Vilna, Vilne, Vilnia, Vilnie, Vilniu, Vilnui, Vilnoi, Vilni, Vilnu, Vilny, or any other variants one may invent, would be only derivatives from the original name, that has a meaning only in Lithuanian language. What the point of putting alternative names other nations created because they were not able to pronounce some letters in their languages correctly and had to shorten or change the name? Should we put under every article of Polish cities and towns Ukrainian, German, Lithuanian, Belarusian, Latvian, Czech names? Warszawa or Varšuva or Варшава or Warschau? An absurd... I also object to put under London articles form the middle ages alternative names like Londres, write Санкт-Петербург or Saint-Pétersbourg based on the language spoken at some period of time by some fraction in the city as if the spoken language changed the name of the city... An absurd.
Please stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Žemėpatis ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
This is the
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Battle of Vilnius (1655) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Not sure this issue is entirely worth bothering over but here's the opinion of Robert I. Frost, who's a scholar of the military history of North-Eastern Europe in the 17th century (and who wrote the book After the Deluge cited in this article). AFAIK Frost can read all the major languages of the documents of this time and area, yet he has no particular national affiliation that I'm aware of. I'm sure there's something to offend everybody here. Frost uses "Wilno".
The linguistic complexity of northeastern Europe and the political changes which have taken place since 1721 mean that several variants of place names exist, and the preference for one form over others is inevitably controversial. Since whatever choice is made will upset somebody, I have tried to balance consistency with the requirements of writing for a largely anglophone readership. Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia). Otherwise I have mainly preferred the form as it appears most frequently in contemporary documents. The greatest problems are posed by Livonia and Estonia, where I have preferred German to Estonian and Latvian forms, and Poland-Lithuania, where I have used the Polish form except for Royal Prussia (thus Danzig, not Gdańsk) and the Ukraine (which in this book denotes the palatinates of Kiev, Volhynia, Bratslav and Chernihiv), where I have used the Ukrainian forms. I have used the term 'Muscovy' to refer to the Russian state until 1667, when the acquisition of the right-bank Ukraine marked the start of the transition to the modern Russian empire. The choices are made entirely on academic grounds. Where strict adherence to these principles would involve absurdities, or where a particular form is solidly grounded in the English-language scholarship, I have departed from them. Thus the battle of Fraustadt (1706) does not become the battle of Wschowa, and I prefer Brest (Litovsk) (the Russian form) to Brześć (Litewski) (Polish). Nationalists may curse me and pedants may excommunicate me if they wish, but I am not writing for them. (Robert I. Frost The Northern Wars 1558-1721, Longman, 2000), Preface, page VIII
-- Folantin ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Folantin, excuse the related digression. I would like to focus on Frost's preface to his Northern Wars 1558-1721, and this sentence..."Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia)." Perhaps it would behoove us to seek some consistency on English WP and follow his example in other places as well. There are a plethora of articles that insist that "Kraków" (replete with diacritic) is the correct historical usage in English. Would Frost's example be well served by changing this toponym back to Cracow? Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Folantin, thanks for the interesting addition from Frost - but remember that no amount of logic and evidence will change the opinion of a nationalist true believer. For some, Vilnius was forever 100% pure Lithuanian Vilnius, likely created that way when the universe begun. I've had a Lithuanian editor tell me that their heart bleeds when they see or hear the string "Wilno". What can you discuss when presented with such mindsets? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
With no disrespect meant to Folantin or anyone else, an academic opinion is above all an opinion. It is especially relished when it concurs with one's own viewpoint on any given subject. I seem to recall that the academic opinion of Norman Davies (who is being cited as one scholar for this move), was hardly worth the ink it was printed on when speaking of Jozef Pilsudski: "He condidered himself a Lithuanian of Polish culture". Davies' scholarly "opinion" was not embraced on that occasion. I forget if it was because his opinion was considered this or that. Dr. Dan ( talk) 21:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
<-- Well, since you seem convinced, as soon as you change your vote above to "Support" moving this to Battle of Wilno (1655)) we can talk about Pilsudski article. First thing's first though. radek ( talk) 01:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Quote: "For example, we have articles called Gdańsk, Volgograd and Vilnius, these being the modern names of these cities, although their former names (Danzig, Stalingrad, Wilno) are used when referring to the appropriate historical periods, including in article names such as Battle of Stalingrad and Free City of Danzig. " But note that the Wiki guideline text has trouble coming up with a Wilno example - because apparently Wilno is an exception to this general rule. Why? And despite what Dr. Dan says, we do have, for example Grand Duchy of Cracow. radek ( talk) 02:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I threw that Frost quotation into the mix to see what happened (it's been in the archives of my user sub-page for over a year now). I think it's interesting because I've rarely seen anyone bring actual academic discussion of naming conventions to these arguments. I have no plans to get heavily involved in the naming dispute here but I see clear parallels between Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius and the Gdansk/Danzig issue (as does Frost, we may presume), i.e. per the Talk:Gdansk/Vote, if Gdansk is Danzig between 1308 and 1945 then something similar might apply to Wilno/Vilnius. BTW I have no problem with Lithuanians [1]. FWIW Here's another quotation I found in my user page archives which may or not have a bearing on the wider Polish-Lithuanian arguments on Wikipedia:
An oral researcher, interviewing the local shoemaker in a village near Kaunas (Kowno) in 1885, recorded a most revealing conversation:
-What tribe do you belong to?
-I am a Catholic.
-That's not what I mean. I'm asking you whether you are a Pole or a Lithuanian.
-I am a Pole, and a Lithuanian as well.
-That is impossible. You have to be either one or the other.
-I speak Polish, the shoemaker said, and I also speak Lithuanian.
And that was the end of the interview.
(Norman Davies God's Playground: A History of Poland)
-- Folantin ( talk) 08:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
General comment: I'm just kicking a few ideas around. I'm doubt if I'll even vote. I see a lot of these talk page arguments but I rarely see any scholarly rationales for naming conventions brought up. Looking at a few of them, it seems Frost favours historical context (Wilno, Danzig) with obvious exceptions (Moscow, Warsaw). Davies argues likewise at great length (God's Playground Vol. 2 pp.510-517) concluding "Ideally the 'name' should always reflect the dominant cultural and political connections of the 'place' at the moment in question. If this involves talking in Chapter Three of 'Vratislav' , in Chapter Twenty of 'Breslau' and in Chapter Twenty-Three of 'Wrocław', the searcher after precision should not be deterred." On the other hand, Daniel Stone has a different take in The Polish-Lithuanian State 1386-1795, favouring the use of modern place names (with some notable exceptions) [4]: "The aim of this volume […] is to provide information useful to readers who are not specialists in Eastern European history. To assist such readers, geographical names usually appear in their year 2000 form […] Hence for example, Vilnius (not Wilno) and Lviv (not Lwów or Lvov). I have kept some place names in the form that is most familiar to English readers: Cracow (not Kraków), Vasa (not Waza) and Königsberg (not Kaliningrad)". But it's worth noting that, by the same token, Stone uses Gdańsk (not Danzig) and Wrocław (not Breslau or whatever). -- Folantin ( talk) 16:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Forget the usual naming conventions. A case like this calls for the application of WP:Seven rules of place naming. — AjaxSmack 03:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Look, read the rationale Frost gives again: "Where there is a generally-recognised English form, modern or early modern, I have used it (Cracow, Moscow, Kiev, Malmo, Copenhagen, Samogitia, Livonia). Otherwise I have mainly preferred the form as it appears most frequently in contemporary documents. The greatest problems are posed by Livonia and Estonia, where I have preferred German to Estonian and Latvian forms, and Poland-Lithuania, where I have used the Polish form except for Royal Prussia (thus Danzig, not Gdańsk)". -- Folantin ( talk) 18:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
From the highly specialist After the Deluge: Poland-Lithuania and the Second Northern War, 1655-1660. Read the rationale here [5]. It's pretty much the same as The Northern Wars except he adds, "With regards to cities and provinces whose ethnic composition has changed radically I have preferred as far as possible the form used by the dominant linguistic group in the seventeenth century." He uses Wilno and Danzig. -- Folantin ( talk) 12:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this page has devolved into sub conversations of sub controversies related to sub arguments influenced by sub personal disagreements, it might be worth while to step back and take look at the big picture. Basically there seems to be two criteria being used to determine the proper name of this article (and I'm not going to bother here with the obvious third one, that it's just all nationalism and bad faith, nor with the off topic fourth, fifth, and nth ones about the fact that the article on Fiji should be renamed to Matanitu Tu-Vaka-i-koya ko Viti) since Krakow is Krakow and not Cracow:
Folantin, in my understanding, has been arguing that it should be mostly 2), he has pointed out that yeah, there's some split in contemporary references, and that as a result what is important is WHY various others choose to use the names they do. He has explicitly provided Frost's rationale for using "Wilno" and has asked other editors to provide the same level of information for alternative sources. This request has been brushed aside by Deacon and others with a "everybody does this", "it's how you do an introduction" and "of course everyone has a rationale". Yet, no specific examples or explanations of other authors reasoning have been provided.
But at least in spirit, most editors here don't see it the same way and there seems to be a good bit of importance attached to 1). This has involved some vague assertions that there exist sources which show that in fact, everybody in the 17th... well, at least + or - 300 or 200 years around it - spoke Lithuanian-as-she-is-spoke-today, and that these sources can be produced but in the meantime the skeptics should read an article on toponyms or other subjects, and anyway, that should be sufficient. And there was Polonization in the 19th century. + or -. Another aspect of this argument is Matthead's assertion that he's never seen "Wilno" on an "old map". And he's right, no "Wilno". Here's a good collection of old maps: [6]. You can search through them and you won't see a "Wilno". Of course, nothing even closely resembling "Vilnius" either. Vilna. Vilno. Wilna. But hey, I'll admit it - not quite the the combination of the "W" and the "o" that we're looking for. But no "us" either. So if we do take criteria 1) seriously (despite Folantin's quite reasonable objections) then it's got to be one of those - not Vilnius.
And several editors have indicated that Vilna, or Vilno, (Wilna hasn't made it, but let's throw it's hat into the ring) would be an acceptable alternative. The thing is that the editors on the "support" side who said Vilna or Vilno was fine probably would retain the nature of their vote. But perhaps there are some editors on the "oppose" side who would change their view for Vilna? Specifically, Renata seems to have said that it might be a plausible alternative.
Anyways. Take this as an attempt to refocus the topic. radek ( talk) 10:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I too would like to thank Radek for taking the time to provide us with the "old maps" [7] , and the extra effort he made. Couldn't find Vilnius. But much more surprisingly, couldn't find Kraków either. Dr. Dan ( talk) 13:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The original city name is Vilnius and always was so. Wilno, Vilna, Vilne, Vilnia, Vilnie, Vilniu, Vilnui, Vilnoi, Vilni, Vilnu, Vilny, or any other variants one may invent, would be only derivatives from the original name, that has a meaning only in Lithuanian language. What the point of putting alternative names other nations created because they were not able to pronounce some letters in their languages correctly and had to shorten or change the name? Should we put under every article of Polish cities and towns Ukrainian, German, Lithuanian, Belarusian, Latvian, Czech names? Warszawa or Varšuva or Варшава or Warschau? An absurd... I also object to put under London articles form the middle ages alternative names like Londres, write Санкт-Петербург or Saint-Pétersbourg based on the language spoken at some period of time by some fraction in the city as if the spoken language changed the name of the city... An absurd.
Please stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Žemėpatis ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)