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I have looked at all the presidents for the last 100 years. Obama's religion in the infobox near the top of the article is non-standard. All the other presidents say Roman Catholic, Baptist, etc.
Obama's should say "United Church of Christ (until 2008), non-denominational Protestant (2009-present)" This is because he used to be a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ until he chose Evergreen Chapel, Camp David. Evergreen Chapel is non-demoninational, though it is not Catholic.
Just saying "Christianity" is too vague. Most Christians are either Catholic or Protestant, with many Protestant demoninations. There are also some other Christians, like the Coptics in Egypt and others. But Obama is not a Coptic. Mormans are usually considered Christian, though some Christians think they are not Christian. Obama is certainly not a Mormon.
There was one other president in the past century that had a change of religion and the year was noted, like above.
Even though there is a lot of hostility and opposition to change (no pun intended even though Obama is for change), please consider this change. JB50000 ( talk) 08:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Nobody has given a valid reason why we should be less specific than all the other presidents in the past century. The infobox should read "United Church of Christ". This is not a church name as his former church was the Trinity United Church of Christ.
The next thing would be to see if he still considers himself to be a member of the United Church of Christ denomination. I can't find confirmation that he is. He is now seems to be a non-denominational Protestant.
So the entry should read "United Church of Christ (until 2008), non-denominational Protestant (2008-present)". There are indications that he had no religion as a kid but I don't want to get into a can of worms. For now, the infobox should read "United Church of Christ" because we must at least put that much in or the article is inaccurate and vague. JB50000 ( talk) 05:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Update: If Wikipedia is to be believed, an alternative to United Church of Christ is Congregationalist. Of course, that is a little less specific, but an improvement over Christianity. The change also helps against Muslim rumors about Obama. By being vague, like Christianity, that just gets people suspicious. If one is specific, like Baptist or Congregationlist, then the Muslim rumors are quashed (unless editors want people to think he is a Muslim trying to hide) JB50000 ( talk) 05:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
(OD) JB5000, there's no consensus whatsoever for your change. You've now changed Obama's religion three times on an article that's under 1RR probation (which you've been warned about). I highly suggest you don't touch this article again for the next 24 hours, and continue the discussion here. Dayewalker ( talk) 06:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry about that, thanks for letting me know and I will leave here for today. There is no consensus for Christianity so those who change it are going against consensus. The only consensus we have is we all don't want "Muslim" put in. Some want "non-denominational Christian or Protestant", some want other things. The reference that I used is the most recent. The reference that some use to justify "christianity" is older AND has other errors, making it an unreliable source. I've looked up 3RR and it suggests dispute resolution. This sounds stupid since are people going to argue over the word "the" and every improvement suggested? Thanks again, Dayewalker.
I'm so puzzled why many insists on fighting when it is clear that Christianity is too vague, has old sources (with newer sources more specific). JB50000 ( talk) 06:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
First of all, if the consensus was that he is a Muslim, we need to disregard consensus.
Second of all, there is no consensus for christianity. The non-denominational reference is much newer and much better. As for lack of consensus, see this (excerpts from above)...
See 4 editors, 4 different opinions. This is no consensus. Also no consensus for the version "Christianity".
JB50000 (
talk) 07:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Please do not remove this tag, let the bot do it. It is easy for those who want to end discussion to try to remove the tag. Unfortunately, that happens a lot here. Currently, the infobox lists his religion as "Christianity" with a reference but there are newer references that use the term Non-denominational Christian. Other suggestions include Protestant, Non-denominational Protestant, United Church of Christ (until 2008)/Non-denominational (2009-present), etc. Thank you. 07:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
The reference used for Christianity is an unreliable source. Their infobox lists his occupation as community organizer and public official. Would you image the uproar if anyone removed from the Wikipedia infobox Obama's occupation of author and constitutional law professor. There would be shouting and maybe even gunshots! So that source is unreliable. Christianity people need to go back to the drawing board. As of now, the non-denominational Christian reference is the best. Frankly, I like non-denominational Protestant or Protestant but this is the best reference we have so far. JB50000 ( talk) 04:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
My comments: all four are largely accurate, it just depends on how much detail we want to provide:
My two preferences:
-- SJK ( talk) 08:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I think this just illustrates a point I've made a number of times before. Infoboxes are usually POV. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't like Non-denominational for two reasons: (1) Just because a person worships in a nondenominational chapel doesn't mean that that person leaves their denominational identity behind - e.g. I could easily describe myself as a Baptist or a Methodist or whatever, and still worship in a nondenominational chapel; (2) there are a number of nondenominational churches out there that appear to have made a principled decision not to belong to a denomination or as a criticism of denominationalism - I don't think there's any suggestion that Obama has converted to that type of nondenominationalism. I think just plain Christian is too generic - he's clearly not a member of the Roman Catholic Church or any of the autocephalous Eastern churches. My vote would be for:
Adam_sk ( talk) 21:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the simple Christianity label because that is what Obama claims as his religion. According to snopes.com he has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid 80s, went to Catholic school as a child, and went to various religious institutions with his mother throughout his childhood. However, he describes himself as Christian and they quoted him as saying that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition."
I also think it's important to understand the differences between non denominational, United Church of Christ, and Congregationalist before saying them like they are interchangeable. Just because a church is non denominational doesn't mean they don't have a set of beliefs. Also, different non denominational churches hold different sets of beliefs. Especially Congregationalist churches, because they believe Jesus is the leader of each individual congregation so practices vary church to church. However, while United Church of Christ is non denominational they still have set beliefs that apply to all their congregations.
Non denominational is part of Christianity they just don't follow the rules or rigid practices as their denominational counterparts. So I don't see the need to specify non denominational when the whole point of non denominational churches is basically that they are Christians but without the labels. Ag627 ( talk) 05:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
You are right that per RFC process, I should have responded here rather than on the WikiProject page. I did not pay careful enough attention to the process at the time I responded. And maybe when JB5000 copied my comment, he could have been clearer about where he copied it from.
As to the meat of the dispute, I don't like simply calling him a Christian because Christian is such a broad term. Whether or not he calls himself "Protestant", or someone else calls him that, its pretty that is what he is. There's no evidence to suggest he identifies with Catholicism, or Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy. So "Protestantism" is a broad descriptor of the type of Christianity he subscribes to; if you look at his familial background on his mother's side, his wife's familial background, his and her history of church attendance, the common thread through it all is Protestant. The particular Protestant denomination may change, but the Protestantism doesn't. To call someone like Obama simply Christian, in my view represents a narrow view of what constitutes Christianity, and I think some people are in such a Protestant milieu that they tend to forget about the existence of other historical branches of Christianity, and end up confusing the merely Protestant with the merely Christian (the latter of which I doubt actually exists). -- SJK ( talk) 20:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
In response, I agree with policies like WP:NOR, WP:RS, etc. but at the same time I think they need to be approached in a commonsense manner, as opposed to a literalistic/legalistic approach. Indeed, people forget another policy, WP:IAR - would that exist if we are meant to be literalistic/legalistic in our interpretation of other policies? And as someone who has been on Wikipedia since its early days (when I joined it was less than a year old), I've noticed over the years people becoming more and more legalistic and literalistic in interpreting these policies, focusing on the letter rather than the spirit. I think there are two groups of opinion here, the mainstream opinion (Obama is some form of Christian), and the minority opinion (Obama is a Muslim, etc). I think its justified on the basis of WP:RS to have a consensus for the mainstream opinion (our consensus should reflect the consensus of reliable sources), and to disregard the minority opinion. So that settles us in favour of Christian then, rather than something else like Muslim. But, moving on from there, can we be any more precise? Is there anyone who seriously doubts that Obama is some form of Protestant (as that term is usually used in contemporary American society)? Is there anyone, among those who agree he is some form of Christian, who seriously denies that more specifically he is some form of Protestant Christian, as opposed to some form of non-Protestant Christian? If we can't find a source for it, is that because its some kind of original research or opinion, or simply because no one has felt the need to state something so obvious? Stating the obvious isn't original research, and WP:RS does not require obvious facts to be sourced. And isn't it an obvious fact, that assuming he's a Christian, he's some kind of Protestant Christian, as opposed to being some kind of non-Protestant Christian? Does anyone actually dispute that? To invoke WP:OR or WP:RS to oppose stating the obvious isn't being faithful to those policies, but rather interpreting them in a legalistic/literalist way when they are not meant to be. -- SJK ( talk) 01:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
SJK's analysis is good. Fine with me (Prostestant Christian).
STEP BACK! Read the references carefully. Obama quit the Trinity United Church of Christ. Every source said it was because of the Rev. Wright's controversial "God Damned America" and other controversial statements. Obama never said he was changing his religion. So he is still United Church of Christ unless he says otherwise. United Church of Christ is also a religion. Look at Howard Dean's article (it says United Church of Christ). So are several other senators.
So we can debate this for the full 30 days for put United Church of Christ. As far the real story, it is possible that Obama picked us church for political advantage since it was the politically strong and correct church in Chicago and he really doesn't have strong opinions as far as denominations. If he had strong opinions and didn't care about politics, he would join the United Church of Christ in Washington, DC. However, this is all original research and not part of the article. As far as the article, all our RS point to UCC and no source says that he changed religions. He only changed churches. JB50000 ( talk) 07:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
There was a lot of religious people coming here for a while but it stopped. It seems that there is support for being more specific than just Christianity. There's one suggestion (mine) that there is no source that says he left the UCC, just left the individual church. I read somewhere that the UCC didn't want him but unless I see that again, it's a bit too controversial to include anything like that. JB50000 ( talk) 04:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Why isnt the fact that Obama stated he was the 44th single man to take the Presidential oath, when infact he was the 43rd because of Grover Cleveland taking presidency twice mentioned in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mongbean ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't his physical attributes be posted as well (height and weight)? I found this article that says he's 179.9lbs and has a BMI of 23.7, which means he's about 6'1' ' if my calculations are correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.28.30 ( talk) 18:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
When his health becomes a major part of his biography, this kind of information (weight, cholesterol) should be included. So far, it is not. This is the neutral way and the way that all articles should take. A UT professor ( talk) 01:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reason for this? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 23:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I think I speak for everyone that some users might slow their computers down. We should archive this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emo-tional being ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Is it common practice in the english wikipedia to call JD "a doctorate in law", in light of it being first professional degree, unlike JSD (doctor of judicial science)? -anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.186.248.40 ( talk) 08:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Obama received a JD, though this stands for Juris Doctor in latin, it is not commonly referred to as a Doctorate of Law in English or by legal professionals (notwithstanding any 'controversy' around whether the degree has academic doctoral status or not). The connotation of the current phrasing more accurately refers to the qualification achieved under an SJD degree, which Harvard Law School also confers. It would be more accurate to say he earned his JD...Presently sounds awkward and inaccurate, and would be laughable to any legal professional. Wikipedia editors should have higher standards for something so basic- really hope someone can edit this silly error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.3.80 ( talk) 04:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
An edit I made to this page, introducing a mention of Obama's endorsement by the New Party in his 1996 run for the State Senate, has been reverted, with the editor who reverted claiming: (1) a violation of WP:UNDUE, and (2) citation of "unreliable sources." I submit:
ᛟ ListenerX TalkerX 03:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I made some suggestions to improve the article. I don't feel like fighting so just read the link and if you think there's room for improvement, then make a suggestion here or use some of the suggestions mentioned. link —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judith Merrick ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Should be noted in infobox, even though it is a former nationality. He was a dual citizen for the beginning of his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.223.188 ( talk) 01:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
By virtue of his father's citizenship of Kenya Colony, Obama Jr. had automatic British—and later Kenyan—citizenship. He lost his dual-citizenship on his 23rd birthday because he did not affirm an allegiance to Kenya.
Spectre's suggestion is 99% ok, but there's a little mistake. Better is to modify it and say "He lost any claim to dual-citizenship on his 23rd ....." This is because there is no source that says Kenya claimed him or that he claimed Kenya. Kenya doesn't know everyone that could be a citizen. Those people have to do something like apply for a passport after which Kenya says "ok, here's your passport" or "no, you are an illegal, no passport for you". JB50000 ( talk) 04:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Yeah this seems perfectly reasonable. I don't think it deserves a great deal of elaboration, but some simple little mention of the fact that he had a default dual citizenship which dropped at the age of 23 because he never did anything with it is fine. Jdlund ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC).
Now more than a year into his administration, might it be time to begin including in the lede events that have occurred during his tenure as President? So far we have only his Nobel Prize and his defeat of John McCain. When is an appropriate time to begin chronicling the administration's accomplishments or hallmarks (I'm thinking primarily of legislation)? Grunge6910 ( talk) 19:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
According to Barack Obama, Sr, Barack Obama was born the son of a British citizen otherwise than by descent. Barack Obama is thus automatically a British citizen by descent. Unless there is evidence to suggest that Barack Obama has renounced his British citizenship at some stage in his life, reference to his British nationality should remain in the article. Qwerta369 ( talk) 11:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Qwerta369, you are a step or two beyond a violation of WP:3RR, for which you can receive an administrative sanction (block of editing privileges). Abrazame ( talk) 11:51, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Obama's British citizenship was short-lived. On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom. Chapter VI, Section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution specifies that:
:1. Every person who, having been born in Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963...
:2. Every person who, having been born outside Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall, if his father becomes, or would but for his death have become, a citizen of Kenya by virtue of subsection (1), become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963....But the paper failed to note that the Kenyan Constitution prohibits dual citizenship for adults. Kenya recognizes dual citizenship for children, but Kenya's Constitution specifies that at age 23, Kenyan citizens who possesses citizenship in more than one country automatically lose their Kenyan citizenship unless they formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1984.
You are using original research by using a link to the father of Obama and the birth certificate. There is no reliable source that states that Obama is of British nationality. The body of the article, and other Obama related articles, do give the details of the early life of Barack Obama and his heritage, but there is no reason at all to add "British" to his nationality in his info box. Some technical rules of certain nations and whom they regard as prospective citizens has no bearing on those people unless they act on it. Which never happened, so is irrelevant. DD2K ( talk) 12:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
My understanding of the situation is at follows:
As to point (3), http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html refers to section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution. That is sufficient for Obama to have become a Kenyan citizen, but is insufficient by itself for him to lose his CUKC. Now, I believe there was actually a British Act which would have deprived him of CUKC, but it would be nice to cite it explicitly. So I think the argument made above, and on factcheck.org, is correct as to its conclusion, but the steps in the argument are not quite correct. -- SJK ( talk) 08:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
This is my understanding of the situation:
-- SJK ( talk) 08:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
It should be taken out because the only people who ever use it are conservatives who want to associate him with Muslim extremists. -- 70.250.214.164 ( talk) 17:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I just want to say that I support the subtle changes to the final paragraph made by Joker123192. After reverting his edit, I realized that the move of the Nobel Prize was not the only aspect of that edit. I feel his refinement improves the last paragraph and want it on record that I do not stand by this part of my own revert. My apologies; the red text automatically highlighted could be a bit more specific about which text was actually changed, which is not the fault of any of the editors involved. Abrazame ( talk) 20:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
We might want to rewrite this section and include sources. One issue I can see is that it implies that the PPACA was the same as the Obama proposal; it's not, as the PPACA doesn't have the public option (one thing that is mentioned in the section). Sceptre ( talk) 23:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Why is it not possible to edit this page? I believe I have something useful to add. Obama has been criticised for not lowering taxes; I would like to insert material concerning this. Further, although science funding has increased, Obama is neglecting humanities. Can someone add this please or permit me to edit the page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesswealth ( talk • contribs) 12:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Twice now, edits of mine have been reverted. As noted in this article [4], HuffPo, The Sydney Morning Herald, TIME, and others, Barack Obama was once known as Barry Soetoro as a youth. These are all RS. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC).
I'm the one who phrased it as "was sometimes known as," and my rationale was and continues to be that since his name since birth is Barack Obama, it doesn't make sense that he would have been always "known as" Barry Soetoro at any time. Since he may have been referred to as Barry Soetoro at the same time he was still named Barack Obama, I think "was sometimes known as" makes the most sense. Incidentally I don't get the whole fascination with the name "Barry Soetoro." It's marginally at least an Obama conspiracy theory about how he isn't really who he claims to be. That's why I don't want to give undue weight to it. Grunge6910 ( talk) 12:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
What is this project designation, and the inclusion in related categories, based on? Fat&Happy ( talk) 05:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the section "University of Chicago Law School and civil rights attorney" lists Obama as a "professor" for twelve years, clarifying that he was a lecturer first and a "senior lecturer" later. The title of "lecturer" is distinct from that of "professor". I propose that the paragraph be modified to start, "For 12 years, Obama lectured on constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.18 ( talk) 15:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Sweet mother of God, this again? Seriously? There is no objective criteria for what constitutes a professor. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that says you have to be on a tenure track to have the title professor. A university creates its own parameters for who is a professor or adjunct or some other title. University of Chicago refers to him as being a professor at their law school http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media. Having the title of "senior lecturer" has no effect whatsoever on whether or not he is a professor. If University of Chicago calls the Senior Lecturers who work at their law school "professors" then they are professors. He was a professor, period. End of story. ( talk) 19:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
served as a professor of constitutional law → was a constitutional law professor
Lecturer → lecturer
Senior Lecturer → senior lecturer
This is an excellent test to see if an editor is objective or not. If you insist on calling him Professor, you may be extremely partisan and biased but if you don't insist, you are neutral.
On the other hand, when Obama is considered a Muslim, if you insist, you are extremely partisan and biased but if you reject that, you are neutral.
There is no other way around it.
Obama was not a Professor. He was a faculty member at the rank of Lecturer. To say that all faculty members' profession is Professor and, therefore, Obama is a Professor is intellectual dishonesty not worthy of Wikipedia. Similarly, if you are a lab tech, you cannot honestly call yourself "Biochemist" without some intellectual dishonesty and overselling.
Many famous people are on the faculty but are not a full Professor. There is no shame to being Lecturer. In fact, Obama was even more senior than that. He was a Senior Lecturer. In Germany, it's even more stringent. Often there is only one professor and everyone else has a lower rank.
The accurate version will say that Obama was on the faculty of the University of Chicago Law School where he held the rank of Lecturer then Senior Lecturer. He taught part time from such and such year to such and such year.
This makes him look good because full time professors are often abstract and impractical but the distinguished part time people, like Obama, have practical ideas and can inject realisms to coursework. JB50000 ( talk) 04:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Scjessey's version is above:
From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers has high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."
A more concise version:
From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama taught constitutional law part time at the University of Chicago Law School. His title was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996 and Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was offered a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.
This concise version has none of the disclaimers like the top version. There is no chance for misunderstanding. This is no chance of resume inflation. There is respect for the President. Because of this, both Obama staffers and right wing extremists probably hate these version. The staffers want resume inflation. The right wingers want to diminish his achievements. By being neutral and fair, this article gets credibility. With the neutral version, we can focus on this man's fine leadership, good achievements (with one possible failure or delay), a man who won the Nobel Peace Prize, etc. JB50000 ( talk) 08:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I posted on ANI asking for administrators who are Ph.D.'s to clarify between a Professor and a professor. Whatever the consensus is among them, that will help resolve this discussion. JB50000 ( talk) 08:44, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
This editor is persisting in removing the word professor from the article. When I reverted one of his edits, which hid the removal among others and called it fixing the bad prose, he got hostile on my talk page, and reinstated his edit, but changed it to put professor in quotes and write up a disclaimer which made Obama look like a liar. Isn't the ARBCom and the page protection situation in place to eliminate this sort of politically motivated attacking? ThuranX ( talk) 07:27, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
There is no original research. There is no consensus. I raise a valid point so that means there is a lack of consensus. When there is a valid point, like confusion between Professor and professor, then we are REQUIRED to fix this. Want to insert the word "professor" somewhere in there. Then make a valid suggestion. Don't like it, then make a valid suggestion. I have made several suggestions trying to get better prose.
I have made valid suggestions, suggestions that are neutral because they neither smear the man, nor overinflate him. Some people above criticize me but they fail to improve things and just stamp their feet and revert.
So rather than be like a obstructionist, make some wording suggestions. Don't just insist on poor prose that creates confusion. Even the wikipedia article, Professors in the United States, makes points that I'm raising--there's no denying that the prose causes confusion.
But you win. I will let this confusing prose remain for now. I am quitting for a few days, at least a day. Go ahead, call him Professor of Law or Associate Professor of Law.
JB50000 ( talk) 08:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
In 1991, Obama accepted a two-year position as Visiting Law and Government Fellow at the University of Chicago Law School to work on his first book. He then served as a professor at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years; as a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996, and as a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004 teaching constitutional law . .
I've looked into this and now realize that there is an intense backstory to the professor issue. Initially the Hillary campaign suggested that Obama was inflating his resume. The Obama campaign cried "mommy!" but then asked the University of Chicago to help them in a bind so the University, not wanting to cross a future president, hedged. So some people could be playing a hyper-cheerleader and want to present the most pro-Obama stance. The really anti-Obama people probably want to quote the controversy. The neutral stance would be to not mention the controversy but to neutrally say that he was on the faculty or that he was a Senior Lecturer. Some blogs describe exactly what I say. JB50000 ( talk) 04:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The campaign also sent out an e-mail quoting an Aug. 8, 2004, column in the Chicago Sun-Times that criticized Obama for calling himself a professor when, in fact, the University of Chicago faculty page listed him as “a senior lecturer (now on leave)." The Sun-Times said, "In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles. Details matter." The Clinton campaign added that the difference between senior lecturers and professors is that "professors have tenure while lecturers do not." We agree that details matter, and also that the formal title of "professor" is not lightly given by academic institutions. However, on this matter the University of Chicago Law School itself is not standing on formality, and is siding with Obama.
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Obama's biography at the White House website. There is no denying that the Clinton campaign did try to attack Obama about being a law professor. Obama struck back by getting the University of Chicago to issue a carefully worded statement to support him.
Years ago, Bush tried to say Saddam smuggled uranium from Mali. Later, the White House admitted that the statement did not undergo the rigorous checks that happen before a President makes a statement. The White House usually checks its facts carefully and issues carefully worded statements.
The White House has released an Obama biography. http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama It says " Upon graduation, he returned to Chicago to help lead a voter registration drive, teach constitutional law at the University of Chicago, and remain active in his community." It does not say "...lead a voter registration drive, was a professor teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago". This shows that mentioning professor probably doesn't reach the level of passing a cautious review by the White House.
We should be sensible. The neutral way would just be to eliminate the issue of professor or no professor. I don't know why the discussion is so long for what should be a simple issue of writing stuff in a way that gets around controversial language! Spevw ( talk) 00:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Good idea, neither anti nor one sided presentation. The White House is more a RS for this one since they don't want to highlight an old Hillary controversy. JB50000 ( talk) 07:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
NBC News reports that there was an issue regarding the Obama campaign calling him Professor verbally or maybe professor (capital P sounds the same as little P). It says
He is a senior lecturer and has cited that he is a constitutional law professor on the trail. That's something that has caused some criticism and allegations of exaggeration. It's something the Clinton campaign has pushed as well in conference calls with reporters in the past week.
So we have to be mindful of that and not take sides. Rather that blow up the controversy, a compromise edit of not mentioning the full blown controversy but just matter of factly mentioning that he taught constitutional law the University of Chicago Law School from what years and was Senior Lecturer (which is really a big deal, better than assistant professor) from what years.
Isn't this the neutral way of doing things without getting into the NBC reported controversy? JB50000 ( talk) 04:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I just really want to know where people got this idea that professor absolutely and at all times means tenured faculty or tenure-track. It is true that that is often how an institutions define "professor" but there's no objective universal standard for the term professor. There is absolutely no reason to assert that only one who has tenure or who is on a tenure track is a professor. It falls upon the institution to define what that positions means for that institution. University of Chicago does things differently. They call their Senior Lecturers professors. That's the end of it. There is no debate after that. It makes no difference that he didn't have tenure and it makes no difference that he wasn't on a tenure-track. UofC is very picky with its grant of tenure so that's not all that surprising. My point here has nothing to do with politics, it's just common sense. It's not "resume padding" it is an objective fact. UofC says that their Senior Lecturers are professors and that Obama was a professor, then he was a professor and that's it. Period. No debate, no controversy, no room for discussion. It's a dead issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I am a professor of a major university. Talking with colleagues at the University of Chicago, this is not the way they do things. They do not call people like instructors, professors. Their press release was politically motivated to get a friend out of trouble. We shouldn't say it was politically motivated. When I was a junior faculty member, if I called myself professor on my curriculum vitae, another university would laugh and not hire me. A UT professor ( talk) 01:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
In Australia or Britain, a senior lecturer is definitely not a professor. But in American English, the term "professor" gets used a lot less more loosely than in British English. So, a lot of people who would not be professors in British or Australian usage (such as senior lecturers), can nonetheless be professors in US usage. Since this is an article about a US President, it should use American English, and so the American usage of "professor" should apply. But maybe it should mention the difference in usage, for the benefit of non-US readers? (Or even some US readers who seem to be unfamiliar with their own dialect of English?) --
SJK (
talk) 08:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, yes I meant more loosely not less loosely, I have corrected myself. I think there is a difference between a word like "President" or "Senate" and a word like "professor". Most people know that "President" or "Senate" means rather different things in different countries -- the US President has very different powers from the Irish President; the US Senate is a very different institution from the Canadian Senate. On the other hand, the fact that different countries use the word "professor" differently is not so obvious. Its easy for someone to read the word "professor", and read it according to the usage they are familiar with, and not realise it means something different in the dialect or context in which the article is written. So I think, if we are going to call Obama a "professor", we should clarify (even if just by a footnote) that a professor in US usage need not be a full professor (unlike Australian/British usage). -- SJK ( talk) 08:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Could somebody put a supplement into the first 100 days section regarding Obama's Nobel Peace Prize nomination? I feel it should be noted that the Peace Prize nominations closed on February 1, only 10 days after he took office. The subsequent controversy arising from that nomination is based on events in his first 10 days in office, and what he did (or didn't do, depending on your point of view) Big mack1 ( talk) 07:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} In the first sentence the page labels Barack Obama as an African American when he is not. He is an American because he was born here. If it is necessary to point out he is black then he is an African because his father is from Kenya. Only people brought on slave ships and their descendants are African Americans.
Psuengr ( talk) 01:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Not done
Maybe if this was before the civil war the op would be right but since then African American is defined as those Americans who have African ancestry or have at least one parent from Africa. Now would people shut up about this shit? You people will say anything to deny the fact that you have a African American as a president, get over it. 98.82.103.91 ( talk) 20:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that some people don't want to use the word "Black". So they use "African American". African American is not the same as Black. Nelson Mandela has been called African American but he said he is not African American. He said he is not American. He is correct. So just because some sources says Obama Sr. is African American is not enough. Otherwise, you'd call Nelson Mandela an African American. Obama Sr. is not African American. Obama II is sort of, close enough for me. Judith Merrick ( talk) 19:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I heard that Obama was once a member of the New Party and did a google search to get some information. A couple of links I immediately found are here: http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/10/obama-file-36-how-socialist-was-obamas.html http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/archives_prove_obama_was_a_new.html
Obviously these two sites are extremely biased against Obama, but every single page I find on the subject is pretty much the same. Despite the bias and tone of the articles, the evidence appears to be pretty solid and I haven't been able to find any compelling evidence that he was NOT a member of the party, however briefly. Could someone do a more thorough check on this? If he was a member, I think it should be added to the article.
Apologies if this has been discussed before.
User:Dilcoe —Preceding undated comment added 03:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC).
Entry 6 of the FAQ suggests that criticisms should be a part of each entry yet I have yet to SEE any criticisms and I don't actually believe that having a criticism section makes for a poor article and denying one makes me suspicious of bias. I must have somehow missed the numerous criticisms and controversies content but cannot seem to find a single one throughout the entirety of the Obama articles, or even a single entry within other sections, it is almost as though the man is projected as some sort of latter day saint. Please would someone paste me the content/links that I being blind must have missed? Twobells ( talk) 12:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
'Laundry lists for right-wing caterwauling'? You have to be kidding me right? Who said anything about the right-wing.... Are you suggesting that any journalistic or legal critiques of the man indicate 'right-wing' bias? If what you say is true about the GW Bush entry then I think that is equally amiss. A WP:NOV is not some sort of flag to deny any criticism but to remain neutral and project the FACTS some of which some will be critiques. Twobells ( talk) 12:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC) The world leader entries have critique sections, an example: Tony Blair#Criticism and yet it seems that US presidents don't, interesting indeed and now I understand why wikipedia has been banned as a research tool in many educational institutions. Twobells ( talk) 13:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
All above, and also, having standalone criticism and controversy sections will devolve into "Muslim Kenyan Anti-Christ communist racist atheist fascist who wants to nationalise your hopey-changey socialism and gay abort your grandma who isn't shovel ready and he also killed and raped a girl in 1990". It's why they're discouraged, actually. Criticism of articles are the exception and not the norm. Incidentally, you gave GWB as an example, but that criticism article was gotten rid of (in name, at least) a year ago when we agreed that it was unfair to have one for Bush (especially as he did have outstanding approval ratings in his first term) but not for Obama (whose approval ratings are average and actually higher the same as Godking of Conservatism Reagan's in '82). Sceptre ( talk) 20:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
this sectionis why wikipedia can never be neutral on anything ever other than unknowingly for a few seconds before the edit war will loom. so much texts , so much insults , 0 constructive cooperation. also hint - the left criticizes obama too so are foreign nations outside the US left-wing axis 79.182.50.19 ( talk) 21:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
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CitizenshipIn regards to Wikipedias answer "The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article". The president of the United States Of America is supposed to be an american born citizen. If the president was indeed born in Kenya wouldn't this create a "significant legal or mainstream political impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.52.129 ( talk) 23:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Ties to Rules for Radicals by Saul AlinskyWhere are the ties to Saul Alinsky?? You mention George W. Bush as a member of the Skulls and Bones society. Don't you think people might want to understand WHERE obama got his radical views? One of Obama's early mentors in the Alinsky method, Mike Kruglik, would later say the following about Obama:
For several years, Obama himself taught workshops on the Alinsky method. Also, beginning in the mid-1980s, Obama worked with ACORN, the Alinskyite grassroots political organization that grew out of George Wiley's National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO). Can we have some honest accounting of this guy? http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2314 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppakap ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC) |
I may have missed it but nowhere in the article does it mention that Obama failed to close Guantanamo down by his self-set deadline. I feel this is notable enough to be included under foreign policy. However, as a new user I did not want to do this in case I was breaking a rule/repeating. I do not have an anti-Obama bias but I feel this is notable. Thanks. Jamioe ( talk) 15:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
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How come the article lists Barack Obama as the first African American president? Is it not more accurate to state that he is the first president of mixed race? If one may say "He is first African American President," is it not equally valid to say "He is the 44th White American president"? Why is his white heritage blatantly ignored? It is simply unfair to not acknowledge his white ancestry, given he is equally as "white" as he is "black." Onixz100 ( talk) 02:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
A reminder: this is not the place for continuing discussion of the relative merits of being considered African American or anything else - the only thing relevant here is DD2K's correct point that we go by what reliable sources say. And the article does, of course, make clear exactly who his parents and grandparents were. Tvoz/ talk 16:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC) He is the 6th, yes i said 6th mixed president. "The only difference between Obama and these former presidents is that none of their family histories were fully acknowledged by others" http://diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/1461/. just because he is the first to proclaim his african decent does not mean he is fully black. as we all know his mother is WHITE, yes i said WHITE. It should read something different than what it it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scootnasty ( talk • contribs) 23:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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Under economics it is mentioned that the ARRA gave money for education and infrastructure, but it leaves out the VA. The ARRA allocated a large sum of money for the VA for much needed facility renovation. Is there any way that can be included? -- 152.131.9.132 ( talk) 20:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
We're not dealing with birther conspiracies day in and day out. Consult the FAQ, pls. Tarc ( talk) 22:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC) |
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It is reported that Kenyan government officials have recently declared that President Obama is actually born in Kenya. According to an article at WorldNetDaily [http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=139725], a member of the Kenyan Parliament named James Orengo said in March 2010, "How could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the president of America? Millie Odhiambo, another member of Kenya's parliament, even declared, "The president-elect, Mr. Obama, is a son of the soil of this country." Also, a YouTube video [8] showed First Lady Michelle Obama Michelle Obama saying that her husband's "... home country was in Kenya...." I do not want to stir up more controversy regarding this issue, but I believe this new discovery deserves some critical attention. Whaley5000 ( talk) 22:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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I look forward to hearing something. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 07:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
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A user would be able to browse Barack Obama's past pictures using the timeline horizontal scrollbar. There is a column on the right side of the page where all the events attended by Barack Obama is listed.If you click on it, only those images of barack obama show up. I would like to recommend this link to the "External Links" section. Suggestions? Agarwal113 ( talk) 07:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I would appreciate input from editors of this article regarding this recent edit naming Barack Obama as an "alleged" practitioner of Taqiyya. Thank you. -- Ibn ( talk) 12:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
There are [9] [10] multiple (there are many more) valid, reputable sources that acknowledge that President Obama used the name Barry Soetoro when he was a youth in Indonesia, and more than just a nickname, but a name he was registered for school as. Suppressing the fact that he was known as a different name at one point is disingenuous and needs to stop. The sources are there. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
You can't just say editors are "biased" and refuse to acknolwedge a consensus. Consensus is pretty clear here, no single admin is going to come in and "moderate" this to your liking against consensus (unless that consensus were in violation of policy, which it isn't). If you disagree, open an request for comment for further opinion. Dayewalker ( talk) 05:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Dispute between myself and DD2K in regards to the inclusion of sourced material in this article. --
Erroneuz1 (
talk) 19:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
We need good sources. If Obama was really Barry, this should be mentioned just as Gerald Ford was formerly known as Leslie King.
Willie Sutton Bank President (
talk) 21:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC) (striking comments of banned sockpuppet)
So, where the article states:
"From ages six to ten, Obama attended local schools in Jakarta, including Besuki Public School and St. Francis of Assisi School.[16][17]"
add, after "school"..."where he was registered as Barry Soetoro." I've been reading here and in archives. "Consensus" should not allow the majority to leave out facts. He was, in fact, "registered" as Barry Soetoro. So... say so. ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 00:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
Oh. I just looked at my handle. THAT'S a 'shot' or 'dig' at VP Cheney who was contemptuous of "paleocons". I voted for Obama. For the aficionados, I even voted for "Baghdad Jim". ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 00:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
I undid an by Wikifan12345 that included a link to Haaretz that had nothing to do with the issue and to the Jerusalem Post that makes it seem as if building settlements in East Jerusalem is no big deal. Now, I am almost always "pro-Israeli", but I know this is a highly contentious issue and the UN resolutions and recognized borders come into play here. I don't want this to turn into an Israeli-Palestinian battleground, so it's best to leave the language as it was and not add to it with views from all sides. Perhaps if the current language is not agreeable to everyone, someone can suggest something else. DD2K ( talk) 14:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
"Wikifan", do you re-read your entries? I added "not" between "certainly" and "the". Which, may I say, is the truth. I COULD say a lot more about this..... but, I forebear. ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 01:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
if the page isnt supposed to talk about the conspiracy theories (faq q#5) then there should be a link to Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories -- Usyflad 10 01:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
As sort of an "aside": DD2K, I see your handle, all over the place, in various disputes. Am I wrong in asking (honest question) that "all" of your entries involve keeping certain entries "off" of this article? Are you "for" any facts, at all, being added? ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 01:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
Why isn't "Barack H. Obama" the title of this article when the article on former president George Bush is titled, "George W. Bush"?
I don't believe that there is a "consensus" among all economists that the stimulus package credit the economic growth. There are economists out there that disagree.-- Jerzeykydd ( talk) 16:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
You think that's biased? It's all cited and sourced by reliable sources and looks pretty well balanced to me. DD2K ( talk) 22:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)Unemployment numbers rose briefly to as high as 10.1% in October 2009 (the highest since 1983), and the "underemployment" rate to 17.5%, before decreasing and holding at 9.7% in early 2010. In the third quarter of 2009, the U.S. economy expanded at a 2.8% pace and in the fourth quarter it grew at its fastest rate in six years, 5.7%. A consensus of economists credit the stimulus package with helping to stop the downturn and create economic growth. In February 2010 the Congressional Budget Office released a report stating that the stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs. Other possible signs of recovery included an upturn in exports and a rise in consumer spending.
People can have differing views without disrupting an article. You deleted a whole section with the edit summary stating "no specific nonpartisan economists were mentioned in the articles", deleting 3 sourced links( 1, 2, 3) that had at least 4 nonpartisan economists and three independent forecasting-analysis groups sourced in their articles. Then you deleted the section once again, deleting the 3 sources and the cited material, with an edit summary stating "Paul Krugman is a liberal economists...it appears that DD2K has been obstructionist....I think DD2K has a liberal bias", as if Krugman was the only economist cited. On an article that is on probation, that borders on vandalism, at least. Finally you took your dispute to the talk page, after being reverted by three other editors, and made a request. Even though I do not agree with the content in your request, I added the material. Which still did not satisfy you as you continued to delete cited material two more times( 1, 2) and changed the wording of the addition you requested to fit your own view on what the source stated. I would say you deliberately put a false edit summary to justify removing material that you did not like, even though it was well sourced with reliable sources. DD2K ( talk) 23:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Obama doesn't speak Indonesian "at a conversational level." He knows a few words - he couldn't have a conversation with someone in Indonesian. He probably knows about as much French as he knows Indonesian ("terima kasih" = "merci", "apa kabar" = "comment allez-vous"). To quote Obama: "I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!" [14] Urmarkt ( talk) 23:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not called Indonesian. It is Bahasa Indonesia. 18:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by The McChicken costs $1 ( talk • contribs)
I'll leave this to someone else to write up but.... One thing that should be noted is Obama's strong support of Acta. Some people are widely support his stance, others strongly opposing, I think this is enough of an issue to be warrent a mention....
and article by cnn is here http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20000347-261.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Primefalcon ( talk • contribs) 11:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
To be honest I don't see anything significant about this yet. Maybe if it passes, but even then it needs to prove important. The existence of vehement debate doesn't make it notable. Vehement debate happens all the time over trivial and important things. Bottom line here is that nothing has passed and there is no way to know how important ACTA will be yet.23:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs)
Obama received an honorary doctoral degree of law from the university of michigan as of today (May 1st 2010). Perhaps somebody could include that information? VonLoyola 18:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
My comments were shoved into a box as well as many others. The excuse is that there is no change to the article. Most discussions do not lead to change but that doesn't mean discussion should be silenced. What's the big deal? The ACLU is for discussion. The John Birch Society is against discussion. Right wingers should not have the final say here. The McChicken costs $1 ( talk) 23:33, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
It needs to be archived again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.63.194 ( talk) 18:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
OP banned as sockpuppet; no compelling reason to refute current and historical RSs and mischaracterization of consensus - no change to be made to article |
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The consensus for that discussion was that Obama's religion is United Church of Christ. There was some support for Protestant. Christianity was not the consensus but a 3rd choice. Judith Merrick ( talk) 19:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Gaydenver was found not to be a sock of JB50000 but Tarc was accused of being a sock. Huh? It seems that the pro-Christianity people were quibbling over "a minor issue". In terms of objectivity, Christianity's sources are SPS (self published sources) which are deemed unreliable. References show that he is United Church of Christ. Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright, not the Church. Obama was on TV yesterday and he did not repudiate the United Church of Christ. He just doesn't go to church often but has designated Camp David as his church for now. Judith Merrick ( talk) 21:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, that was not the consensus. Also, the sock puppet investigation did not find anyone to be different people, in fact the conclusion was that they were either the same person or in close contact IRL. I would call that either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. While I appreciate the work done by the admins and CUs, it's unbelievable to me that you and the others listed are not either the same person or working to undermine Wikipedia together. In any case, it doesn't matter right now. All of your proposals were rejected and claiming 'consensus' when there is none is eerily familiar. DD2K ( talk) 23:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources. Technically, Obama is a former member of the United Church of Christ, see this correspondence, and the cited Associated Press article says as much: "The United Church of Christ, the denomination from which Obama resigned when he left Wright's church, issued a written invitation to join a UCC denomination in Washington and resume his connections to the church." Obama has not yet resumed his connections, so the UCC is most likely is, and will remain, his former denomination, yet these sources are not quite enough verification to assert that the UCC is indeed his former denomination, e.g. United Church of Christ (until 2008) added underneath Christianity. To do so, I think we may need additional secondary or tertiary sources that verify his break with the UCC as a consequence of leaving Trinity. -- Modocc ( talk) 17:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Barak Obama Sr. was a Muslim, Barak Obama II is a Muslim by birth. So that needs to be added to the information, please. 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 04:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Iankap99, you need to take a Comparative Religion class. Barak Obama II is a Muslim by birth. 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 06:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello again. Respectfully, if one wishes to figure out why some have one opinion and some another, that's the very reason we archive these talk pages; the expressions of those opinions are found there. You could also do some reading at reliable sources elsewhere. If you're interested in being a part of such a conversation, you might take a class on comparative religion, find a chat room off Wikipedia, or discuss this at a Wiki Project for religion.
This page isn't actually here for any and all comers to participate in an open discussion about and and all general or specific themes related directly or indirectly to the article subject or data herein. It is here so specific, rational and well-sourced suggestions for improvements to the article may be discussed and potential changes honed; or, alternatively, for explanation of why edits or suggestions are found to be inappropriate for this brief bio. Discussions viz a viz this subject have already transpired several times over and, contrary to your comment in a "censorship" thread below, you didn't add anything new to that broader discussion. One's very first thought and very second thought on an issue (particularly when they are hunches and not actually rooted in fact) isn't necessarily helpful, especially as it is apparently not your intent to change the wording in the article, and for all of these reasons your comments are irrelevant to the purpose of this page in general and this thread in particular. We welcome your educated suggestions on other issues that might be appropriate for article inclusion, and that's best done by participating in an active thread or beginning a reliably sourced thread of your own, as you did with the Uganda situation. Hopefully you can understand that reopening or appending multiple closed threads without understanding the reasons for closure and without any compelling turn of events altering the situation, and without even intending to change the consensus in every case, is not the best way to enter the editorial process. Incidentally, something is technically amiss with the formatting of the now-closed thread above, as prior to McChicken's post there of 5/12 it had lingered several days past the current 10-day auto-archive date, in fact 150% of the current standard archival period. Can someone adept at this sort of thing give it a look? Abrazame ( talk) 08:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC) Looks like the period is 14 days, whatever. The point is this is not a discussion of opinion. The instructions say to discuss changes for the article. The man is Protestant, I don't know why there is such an effort to call him just Christian. Usually that term is used in countries where most people are not Christian. Since this article is about an American, Protestant is better. If the article is about a Lebanese in Lebanon, then Christian might be better because Shites and Sunnis do not know the difference between Catholics and Methodists. Obama is not a Catholic, fa4r from that! Again, OBAMA IS NOT A CATHOLIC, so using Christian for an American living in the U.S. is not a good idea. This is the suggestion that I have for improving the biography. The Chicken costs $1 ( talk) 19:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
UCC is not liberal. The Unitarians are the liberals. About 10 years ago, they were in the news when a Unitarian church had a "show your talents" sermon. Some churchgoers played musical instruments but they allowed a stripper to do partial striptease, taking off most of her clothes. Obama is not keeping things private, he is just keeping things normal. This Easter, he went to a civilian church rather than the Camp David Chapel. Rather than privacy, what Obama is doing is not having the press office blow up the issue like they do for the news of the day that they want to promote. All presidents plan strategy on when to release big news and what big news to release. Some big news is event driven (like the oil spill) but some big news is driven by the political aides, like when to make a big stink about the economy or immigration. http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-takes-easter-mass-church-regular/story?id=10283263 Your suggestion is better than mine. UCC is more specific than my idea of Protestant. The Chicken costs $1( talk) 01:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
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The article says that Obama is the first African American to become president. While it is true he is not white like the previous presidents, he is not completely African American. His father is African American and his mother is white, which makes him the first mixed president. Just a quick fixup would be much appreciated.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Architectheroes ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Just because a piece of information is repeatedly, even by sources often considered reliable, does not make something true, especially if the information is heavily tinged with cultural bias. Calling Obama "African-American" and leaving it at that is misleading. Like so many other cases when we focus on the "otherness" of someone we identify as a minority, we make the privileged group invisible. Since it is taken for granted that somebody is white, straight, or male, (etc) we only give specifics when they belong to the less-privileged group. Calling Obama "African-American" instead of "biracial" or "multiracial" enforces white hegemony. I understand this topic has been discussed extensively, but I don't see any evidence that this harmful aspect has been addressed. Sabbrielle ( talk) 22:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
It may be noteworthy to mention that Obama is biracial but chose African-American/Black/Negro on the census form instead of multiracial. Maybe it could read after it says where his mother was white and father Kenyan Luo that "Obama declared his race as 'African-American/Black/Negro on the 2010 census form and not 'some other race' or both black and 'white'." (This last part, not some other race, is quoted from the NY Times article and is not my conclusion. It's their conclusion) References: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/what-the-wild-things-are/201004/president-obama-checks-the-black-box http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/us/politics/03census.html http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/2137473,obama-census-black-040210.article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/02/politics/main6357568.shtml http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/04/nation/la-na-obama-census4-2010apr04 I am surprised that there are so much coverage over this issue and makes one think that Wikipedia should also devote one sentence to it (summarizing dozens of news reports into one simple sentence). The McChicken costs $1 ( talk) 01:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC) The suggested change to the article is just a short sentence "In answering the 2010 census, Obama checked one box under the race question, "African-American/Black/Negro"." The Chicken costs $1 ( talk) 19:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
I was interested in the phrase: "He is the first African American to hold the office." Is this the best way to phrase this?
I hope this fosters some discussion. Thank you. Newuser54 ( talk) 04:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Why are Navbox, Time Persons of the Year 2001-2025, Featured article, and the Link FAs redlinks? Is it a template limitation? They aren't redlinks in the history of the article. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 02:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
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Archive 65 | ← | Archive 67 | Archive 68 | Archive 69 | Archive 70 | Archive 71 | → | Archive 75 |
I have looked at all the presidents for the last 100 years. Obama's religion in the infobox near the top of the article is non-standard. All the other presidents say Roman Catholic, Baptist, etc.
Obama's should say "United Church of Christ (until 2008), non-denominational Protestant (2009-present)" This is because he used to be a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ until he chose Evergreen Chapel, Camp David. Evergreen Chapel is non-demoninational, though it is not Catholic.
Just saying "Christianity" is too vague. Most Christians are either Catholic or Protestant, with many Protestant demoninations. There are also some other Christians, like the Coptics in Egypt and others. But Obama is not a Coptic. Mormans are usually considered Christian, though some Christians think they are not Christian. Obama is certainly not a Mormon.
There was one other president in the past century that had a change of religion and the year was noted, like above.
Even though there is a lot of hostility and opposition to change (no pun intended even though Obama is for change), please consider this change. JB50000 ( talk) 08:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Nobody has given a valid reason why we should be less specific than all the other presidents in the past century. The infobox should read "United Church of Christ". This is not a church name as his former church was the Trinity United Church of Christ.
The next thing would be to see if he still considers himself to be a member of the United Church of Christ denomination. I can't find confirmation that he is. He is now seems to be a non-denominational Protestant.
So the entry should read "United Church of Christ (until 2008), non-denominational Protestant (2008-present)". There are indications that he had no religion as a kid but I don't want to get into a can of worms. For now, the infobox should read "United Church of Christ" because we must at least put that much in or the article is inaccurate and vague. JB50000 ( talk) 05:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Update: If Wikipedia is to be believed, an alternative to United Church of Christ is Congregationalist. Of course, that is a little less specific, but an improvement over Christianity. The change also helps against Muslim rumors about Obama. By being vague, like Christianity, that just gets people suspicious. If one is specific, like Baptist or Congregationlist, then the Muslim rumors are quashed (unless editors want people to think he is a Muslim trying to hide) JB50000 ( talk) 05:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
(OD) JB5000, there's no consensus whatsoever for your change. You've now changed Obama's religion three times on an article that's under 1RR probation (which you've been warned about). I highly suggest you don't touch this article again for the next 24 hours, and continue the discussion here. Dayewalker ( talk) 06:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry about that, thanks for letting me know and I will leave here for today. There is no consensus for Christianity so those who change it are going against consensus. The only consensus we have is we all don't want "Muslim" put in. Some want "non-denominational Christian or Protestant", some want other things. The reference that I used is the most recent. The reference that some use to justify "christianity" is older AND has other errors, making it an unreliable source. I've looked up 3RR and it suggests dispute resolution. This sounds stupid since are people going to argue over the word "the" and every improvement suggested? Thanks again, Dayewalker.
I'm so puzzled why many insists on fighting when it is clear that Christianity is too vague, has old sources (with newer sources more specific). JB50000 ( talk) 06:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
First of all, if the consensus was that he is a Muslim, we need to disregard consensus.
Second of all, there is no consensus for christianity. The non-denominational reference is much newer and much better. As for lack of consensus, see this (excerpts from above)...
See 4 editors, 4 different opinions. This is no consensus. Also no consensus for the version "Christianity".
JB50000 (
talk) 07:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Please do not remove this tag, let the bot do it. It is easy for those who want to end discussion to try to remove the tag. Unfortunately, that happens a lot here. Currently, the infobox lists his religion as "Christianity" with a reference but there are newer references that use the term Non-denominational Christian. Other suggestions include Protestant, Non-denominational Protestant, United Church of Christ (until 2008)/Non-denominational (2009-present), etc. Thank you. 07:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
The reference used for Christianity is an unreliable source. Their infobox lists his occupation as community organizer and public official. Would you image the uproar if anyone removed from the Wikipedia infobox Obama's occupation of author and constitutional law professor. There would be shouting and maybe even gunshots! So that source is unreliable. Christianity people need to go back to the drawing board. As of now, the non-denominational Christian reference is the best. Frankly, I like non-denominational Protestant or Protestant but this is the best reference we have so far. JB50000 ( talk) 04:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
My comments: all four are largely accurate, it just depends on how much detail we want to provide:
My two preferences:
-- SJK ( talk) 08:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I think this just illustrates a point I've made a number of times before. Infoboxes are usually POV. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't like Non-denominational for two reasons: (1) Just because a person worships in a nondenominational chapel doesn't mean that that person leaves their denominational identity behind - e.g. I could easily describe myself as a Baptist or a Methodist or whatever, and still worship in a nondenominational chapel; (2) there are a number of nondenominational churches out there that appear to have made a principled decision not to belong to a denomination or as a criticism of denominationalism - I don't think there's any suggestion that Obama has converted to that type of nondenominationalism. I think just plain Christian is too generic - he's clearly not a member of the Roman Catholic Church or any of the autocephalous Eastern churches. My vote would be for:
Adam_sk ( talk) 21:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the simple Christianity label because that is what Obama claims as his religion. According to snopes.com he has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid 80s, went to Catholic school as a child, and went to various religious institutions with his mother throughout his childhood. However, he describes himself as Christian and they quoted him as saying that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition."
I also think it's important to understand the differences between non denominational, United Church of Christ, and Congregationalist before saying them like they are interchangeable. Just because a church is non denominational doesn't mean they don't have a set of beliefs. Also, different non denominational churches hold different sets of beliefs. Especially Congregationalist churches, because they believe Jesus is the leader of each individual congregation so practices vary church to church. However, while United Church of Christ is non denominational they still have set beliefs that apply to all their congregations.
Non denominational is part of Christianity they just don't follow the rules or rigid practices as their denominational counterparts. So I don't see the need to specify non denominational when the whole point of non denominational churches is basically that they are Christians but without the labels. Ag627 ( talk) 05:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
You are right that per RFC process, I should have responded here rather than on the WikiProject page. I did not pay careful enough attention to the process at the time I responded. And maybe when JB5000 copied my comment, he could have been clearer about where he copied it from.
As to the meat of the dispute, I don't like simply calling him a Christian because Christian is such a broad term. Whether or not he calls himself "Protestant", or someone else calls him that, its pretty that is what he is. There's no evidence to suggest he identifies with Catholicism, or Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy. So "Protestantism" is a broad descriptor of the type of Christianity he subscribes to; if you look at his familial background on his mother's side, his wife's familial background, his and her history of church attendance, the common thread through it all is Protestant. The particular Protestant denomination may change, but the Protestantism doesn't. To call someone like Obama simply Christian, in my view represents a narrow view of what constitutes Christianity, and I think some people are in such a Protestant milieu that they tend to forget about the existence of other historical branches of Christianity, and end up confusing the merely Protestant with the merely Christian (the latter of which I doubt actually exists). -- SJK ( talk) 20:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
In response, I agree with policies like WP:NOR, WP:RS, etc. but at the same time I think they need to be approached in a commonsense manner, as opposed to a literalistic/legalistic approach. Indeed, people forget another policy, WP:IAR - would that exist if we are meant to be literalistic/legalistic in our interpretation of other policies? And as someone who has been on Wikipedia since its early days (when I joined it was less than a year old), I've noticed over the years people becoming more and more legalistic and literalistic in interpreting these policies, focusing on the letter rather than the spirit. I think there are two groups of opinion here, the mainstream opinion (Obama is some form of Christian), and the minority opinion (Obama is a Muslim, etc). I think its justified on the basis of WP:RS to have a consensus for the mainstream opinion (our consensus should reflect the consensus of reliable sources), and to disregard the minority opinion. So that settles us in favour of Christian then, rather than something else like Muslim. But, moving on from there, can we be any more precise? Is there anyone who seriously doubts that Obama is some form of Protestant (as that term is usually used in contemporary American society)? Is there anyone, among those who agree he is some form of Christian, who seriously denies that more specifically he is some form of Protestant Christian, as opposed to some form of non-Protestant Christian? If we can't find a source for it, is that because its some kind of original research or opinion, or simply because no one has felt the need to state something so obvious? Stating the obvious isn't original research, and WP:RS does not require obvious facts to be sourced. And isn't it an obvious fact, that assuming he's a Christian, he's some kind of Protestant Christian, as opposed to being some kind of non-Protestant Christian? Does anyone actually dispute that? To invoke WP:OR or WP:RS to oppose stating the obvious isn't being faithful to those policies, but rather interpreting them in a legalistic/literalist way when they are not meant to be. -- SJK ( talk) 01:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
SJK's analysis is good. Fine with me (Prostestant Christian).
STEP BACK! Read the references carefully. Obama quit the Trinity United Church of Christ. Every source said it was because of the Rev. Wright's controversial "God Damned America" and other controversial statements. Obama never said he was changing his religion. So he is still United Church of Christ unless he says otherwise. United Church of Christ is also a religion. Look at Howard Dean's article (it says United Church of Christ). So are several other senators.
So we can debate this for the full 30 days for put United Church of Christ. As far the real story, it is possible that Obama picked us church for political advantage since it was the politically strong and correct church in Chicago and he really doesn't have strong opinions as far as denominations. If he had strong opinions and didn't care about politics, he would join the United Church of Christ in Washington, DC. However, this is all original research and not part of the article. As far as the article, all our RS point to UCC and no source says that he changed religions. He only changed churches. JB50000 ( talk) 07:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
There was a lot of religious people coming here for a while but it stopped. It seems that there is support for being more specific than just Christianity. There's one suggestion (mine) that there is no source that says he left the UCC, just left the individual church. I read somewhere that the UCC didn't want him but unless I see that again, it's a bit too controversial to include anything like that. JB50000 ( talk) 04:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Why isnt the fact that Obama stated he was the 44th single man to take the Presidential oath, when infact he was the 43rd because of Grover Cleveland taking presidency twice mentioned in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mongbean ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't his physical attributes be posted as well (height and weight)? I found this article that says he's 179.9lbs and has a BMI of 23.7, which means he's about 6'1' ' if my calculations are correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.28.30 ( talk) 18:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
When his health becomes a major part of his biography, this kind of information (weight, cholesterol) should be included. So far, it is not. This is the neutral way and the way that all articles should take. A UT professor ( talk) 01:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reason for this? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 23:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I think I speak for everyone that some users might slow their computers down. We should archive this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emo-tional being ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Is it common practice in the english wikipedia to call JD "a doctorate in law", in light of it being first professional degree, unlike JSD (doctor of judicial science)? -anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.186.248.40 ( talk) 08:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Obama received a JD, though this stands for Juris Doctor in latin, it is not commonly referred to as a Doctorate of Law in English or by legal professionals (notwithstanding any 'controversy' around whether the degree has academic doctoral status or not). The connotation of the current phrasing more accurately refers to the qualification achieved under an SJD degree, which Harvard Law School also confers. It would be more accurate to say he earned his JD...Presently sounds awkward and inaccurate, and would be laughable to any legal professional. Wikipedia editors should have higher standards for something so basic- really hope someone can edit this silly error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.3.80 ( talk) 04:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
An edit I made to this page, introducing a mention of Obama's endorsement by the New Party in his 1996 run for the State Senate, has been reverted, with the editor who reverted claiming: (1) a violation of WP:UNDUE, and (2) citation of "unreliable sources." I submit:
ᛟ ListenerX TalkerX 03:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I made some suggestions to improve the article. I don't feel like fighting so just read the link and if you think there's room for improvement, then make a suggestion here or use some of the suggestions mentioned. link —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judith Merrick ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Should be noted in infobox, even though it is a former nationality. He was a dual citizen for the beginning of his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.223.188 ( talk) 01:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
By virtue of his father's citizenship of Kenya Colony, Obama Jr. had automatic British—and later Kenyan—citizenship. He lost his dual-citizenship on his 23rd birthday because he did not affirm an allegiance to Kenya.
Spectre's suggestion is 99% ok, but there's a little mistake. Better is to modify it and say "He lost any claim to dual-citizenship on his 23rd ....." This is because there is no source that says Kenya claimed him or that he claimed Kenya. Kenya doesn't know everyone that could be a citizen. Those people have to do something like apply for a passport after which Kenya says "ok, here's your passport" or "no, you are an illegal, no passport for you". JB50000 ( talk) 04:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Yeah this seems perfectly reasonable. I don't think it deserves a great deal of elaboration, but some simple little mention of the fact that he had a default dual citizenship which dropped at the age of 23 because he never did anything with it is fine. Jdlund ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC).
Now more than a year into his administration, might it be time to begin including in the lede events that have occurred during his tenure as President? So far we have only his Nobel Prize and his defeat of John McCain. When is an appropriate time to begin chronicling the administration's accomplishments or hallmarks (I'm thinking primarily of legislation)? Grunge6910 ( talk) 19:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
According to Barack Obama, Sr, Barack Obama was born the son of a British citizen otherwise than by descent. Barack Obama is thus automatically a British citizen by descent. Unless there is evidence to suggest that Barack Obama has renounced his British citizenship at some stage in his life, reference to his British nationality should remain in the article. Qwerta369 ( talk) 11:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Qwerta369, you are a step or two beyond a violation of WP:3RR, for which you can receive an administrative sanction (block of editing privileges). Abrazame ( talk) 11:51, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Obama's British citizenship was short-lived. On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom. Chapter VI, Section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution specifies that:
:1. Every person who, having been born in Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963...
:2. Every person who, having been born outside Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall, if his father becomes, or would but for his death have become, a citizen of Kenya by virtue of subsection (1), become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963....But the paper failed to note that the Kenyan Constitution prohibits dual citizenship for adults. Kenya recognizes dual citizenship for children, but Kenya's Constitution specifies that at age 23, Kenyan citizens who possesses citizenship in more than one country automatically lose their Kenyan citizenship unless they formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1984.
You are using original research by using a link to the father of Obama and the birth certificate. There is no reliable source that states that Obama is of British nationality. The body of the article, and other Obama related articles, do give the details of the early life of Barack Obama and his heritage, but there is no reason at all to add "British" to his nationality in his info box. Some technical rules of certain nations and whom they regard as prospective citizens has no bearing on those people unless they act on it. Which never happened, so is irrelevant. DD2K ( talk) 12:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
My understanding of the situation is at follows:
As to point (3), http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html refers to section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution. That is sufficient for Obama to have become a Kenyan citizen, but is insufficient by itself for him to lose his CUKC. Now, I believe there was actually a British Act which would have deprived him of CUKC, but it would be nice to cite it explicitly. So I think the argument made above, and on factcheck.org, is correct as to its conclusion, but the steps in the argument are not quite correct. -- SJK ( talk) 08:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
This is my understanding of the situation:
-- SJK ( talk) 08:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
It should be taken out because the only people who ever use it are conservatives who want to associate him with Muslim extremists. -- 70.250.214.164 ( talk) 17:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I just want to say that I support the subtle changes to the final paragraph made by Joker123192. After reverting his edit, I realized that the move of the Nobel Prize was not the only aspect of that edit. I feel his refinement improves the last paragraph and want it on record that I do not stand by this part of my own revert. My apologies; the red text automatically highlighted could be a bit more specific about which text was actually changed, which is not the fault of any of the editors involved. Abrazame ( talk) 20:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
We might want to rewrite this section and include sources. One issue I can see is that it implies that the PPACA was the same as the Obama proposal; it's not, as the PPACA doesn't have the public option (one thing that is mentioned in the section). Sceptre ( talk) 23:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Why is it not possible to edit this page? I believe I have something useful to add. Obama has been criticised for not lowering taxes; I would like to insert material concerning this. Further, although science funding has increased, Obama is neglecting humanities. Can someone add this please or permit me to edit the page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesswealth ( talk • contribs) 12:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Twice now, edits of mine have been reverted. As noted in this article [4], HuffPo, The Sydney Morning Herald, TIME, and others, Barack Obama was once known as Barry Soetoro as a youth. These are all RS. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC).
I'm the one who phrased it as "was sometimes known as," and my rationale was and continues to be that since his name since birth is Barack Obama, it doesn't make sense that he would have been always "known as" Barry Soetoro at any time. Since he may have been referred to as Barry Soetoro at the same time he was still named Barack Obama, I think "was sometimes known as" makes the most sense. Incidentally I don't get the whole fascination with the name "Barry Soetoro." It's marginally at least an Obama conspiracy theory about how he isn't really who he claims to be. That's why I don't want to give undue weight to it. Grunge6910 ( talk) 12:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
What is this project designation, and the inclusion in related categories, based on? Fat&Happy ( talk) 05:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the section "University of Chicago Law School and civil rights attorney" lists Obama as a "professor" for twelve years, clarifying that he was a lecturer first and a "senior lecturer" later. The title of "lecturer" is distinct from that of "professor". I propose that the paragraph be modified to start, "For 12 years, Obama lectured on constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.18 ( talk) 15:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Sweet mother of God, this again? Seriously? There is no objective criteria for what constitutes a professor. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that says you have to be on a tenure track to have the title professor. A university creates its own parameters for who is a professor or adjunct or some other title. University of Chicago refers to him as being a professor at their law school http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media. Having the title of "senior lecturer" has no effect whatsoever on whether or not he is a professor. If University of Chicago calls the Senior Lecturers who work at their law school "professors" then they are professors. He was a professor, period. End of story. ( talk) 19:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
served as a professor of constitutional law → was a constitutional law professor
Lecturer → lecturer
Senior Lecturer → senior lecturer
This is an excellent test to see if an editor is objective or not. If you insist on calling him Professor, you may be extremely partisan and biased but if you don't insist, you are neutral.
On the other hand, when Obama is considered a Muslim, if you insist, you are extremely partisan and biased but if you reject that, you are neutral.
There is no other way around it.
Obama was not a Professor. He was a faculty member at the rank of Lecturer. To say that all faculty members' profession is Professor and, therefore, Obama is a Professor is intellectual dishonesty not worthy of Wikipedia. Similarly, if you are a lab tech, you cannot honestly call yourself "Biochemist" without some intellectual dishonesty and overselling.
Many famous people are on the faculty but are not a full Professor. There is no shame to being Lecturer. In fact, Obama was even more senior than that. He was a Senior Lecturer. In Germany, it's even more stringent. Often there is only one professor and everyone else has a lower rank.
The accurate version will say that Obama was on the faculty of the University of Chicago Law School where he held the rank of Lecturer then Senior Lecturer. He taught part time from such and such year to such and such year.
This makes him look good because full time professors are often abstract and impractical but the distinguished part time people, like Obama, have practical ideas and can inject realisms to coursework. JB50000 ( talk) 04:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Scjessey's version is above:
From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers has high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."
A more concise version:
From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama taught constitutional law part time at the University of Chicago Law School. His title was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996 and Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was offered a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.
This concise version has none of the disclaimers like the top version. There is no chance for misunderstanding. This is no chance of resume inflation. There is respect for the President. Because of this, both Obama staffers and right wing extremists probably hate these version. The staffers want resume inflation. The right wingers want to diminish his achievements. By being neutral and fair, this article gets credibility. With the neutral version, we can focus on this man's fine leadership, good achievements (with one possible failure or delay), a man who won the Nobel Peace Prize, etc. JB50000 ( talk) 08:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I posted on ANI asking for administrators who are Ph.D.'s to clarify between a Professor and a professor. Whatever the consensus is among them, that will help resolve this discussion. JB50000 ( talk) 08:44, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
This editor is persisting in removing the word professor from the article. When I reverted one of his edits, which hid the removal among others and called it fixing the bad prose, he got hostile on my talk page, and reinstated his edit, but changed it to put professor in quotes and write up a disclaimer which made Obama look like a liar. Isn't the ARBCom and the page protection situation in place to eliminate this sort of politically motivated attacking? ThuranX ( talk) 07:27, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
There is no original research. There is no consensus. I raise a valid point so that means there is a lack of consensus. When there is a valid point, like confusion between Professor and professor, then we are REQUIRED to fix this. Want to insert the word "professor" somewhere in there. Then make a valid suggestion. Don't like it, then make a valid suggestion. I have made several suggestions trying to get better prose.
I have made valid suggestions, suggestions that are neutral because they neither smear the man, nor overinflate him. Some people above criticize me but they fail to improve things and just stamp their feet and revert.
So rather than be like a obstructionist, make some wording suggestions. Don't just insist on poor prose that creates confusion. Even the wikipedia article, Professors in the United States, makes points that I'm raising--there's no denying that the prose causes confusion.
But you win. I will let this confusing prose remain for now. I am quitting for a few days, at least a day. Go ahead, call him Professor of Law or Associate Professor of Law.
JB50000 ( talk) 08:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
In 1991, Obama accepted a two-year position as Visiting Law and Government Fellow at the University of Chicago Law School to work on his first book. He then served as a professor at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years; as a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996, and as a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004 teaching constitutional law . .
I've looked into this and now realize that there is an intense backstory to the professor issue. Initially the Hillary campaign suggested that Obama was inflating his resume. The Obama campaign cried "mommy!" but then asked the University of Chicago to help them in a bind so the University, not wanting to cross a future president, hedged. So some people could be playing a hyper-cheerleader and want to present the most pro-Obama stance. The really anti-Obama people probably want to quote the controversy. The neutral stance would be to not mention the controversy but to neutrally say that he was on the faculty or that he was a Senior Lecturer. Some blogs describe exactly what I say. JB50000 ( talk) 04:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The campaign also sent out an e-mail quoting an Aug. 8, 2004, column in the Chicago Sun-Times that criticized Obama for calling himself a professor when, in fact, the University of Chicago faculty page listed him as “a senior lecturer (now on leave)." The Sun-Times said, "In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles. Details matter." The Clinton campaign added that the difference between senior lecturers and professors is that "professors have tenure while lecturers do not." We agree that details matter, and also that the formal title of "professor" is not lightly given by academic institutions. However, on this matter the University of Chicago Law School itself is not standing on formality, and is siding with Obama.
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Obama's biography at the White House website. There is no denying that the Clinton campaign did try to attack Obama about being a law professor. Obama struck back by getting the University of Chicago to issue a carefully worded statement to support him.
Years ago, Bush tried to say Saddam smuggled uranium from Mali. Later, the White House admitted that the statement did not undergo the rigorous checks that happen before a President makes a statement. The White House usually checks its facts carefully and issues carefully worded statements.
The White House has released an Obama biography. http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama It says " Upon graduation, he returned to Chicago to help lead a voter registration drive, teach constitutional law at the University of Chicago, and remain active in his community." It does not say "...lead a voter registration drive, was a professor teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago". This shows that mentioning professor probably doesn't reach the level of passing a cautious review by the White House.
We should be sensible. The neutral way would just be to eliminate the issue of professor or no professor. I don't know why the discussion is so long for what should be a simple issue of writing stuff in a way that gets around controversial language! Spevw ( talk) 00:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Good idea, neither anti nor one sided presentation. The White House is more a RS for this one since they don't want to highlight an old Hillary controversy. JB50000 ( talk) 07:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
NBC News reports that there was an issue regarding the Obama campaign calling him Professor verbally or maybe professor (capital P sounds the same as little P). It says
He is a senior lecturer and has cited that he is a constitutional law professor on the trail. That's something that has caused some criticism and allegations of exaggeration. It's something the Clinton campaign has pushed as well in conference calls with reporters in the past week.
So we have to be mindful of that and not take sides. Rather that blow up the controversy, a compromise edit of not mentioning the full blown controversy but just matter of factly mentioning that he taught constitutional law the University of Chicago Law School from what years and was Senior Lecturer (which is really a big deal, better than assistant professor) from what years.
Isn't this the neutral way of doing things without getting into the NBC reported controversy? JB50000 ( talk) 04:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I just really want to know where people got this idea that professor absolutely and at all times means tenured faculty or tenure-track. It is true that that is often how an institutions define "professor" but there's no objective universal standard for the term professor. There is absolutely no reason to assert that only one who has tenure or who is on a tenure track is a professor. It falls upon the institution to define what that positions means for that institution. University of Chicago does things differently. They call their Senior Lecturers professors. That's the end of it. There is no debate after that. It makes no difference that he didn't have tenure and it makes no difference that he wasn't on a tenure-track. UofC is very picky with its grant of tenure so that's not all that surprising. My point here has nothing to do with politics, it's just common sense. It's not "resume padding" it is an objective fact. UofC says that their Senior Lecturers are professors and that Obama was a professor, then he was a professor and that's it. Period. No debate, no controversy, no room for discussion. It's a dead issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I am a professor of a major university. Talking with colleagues at the University of Chicago, this is not the way they do things. They do not call people like instructors, professors. Their press release was politically motivated to get a friend out of trouble. We shouldn't say it was politically motivated. When I was a junior faculty member, if I called myself professor on my curriculum vitae, another university would laugh and not hire me. A UT professor ( talk) 01:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
In Australia or Britain, a senior lecturer is definitely not a professor. But in American English, the term "professor" gets used a lot less more loosely than in British English. So, a lot of people who would not be professors in British or Australian usage (such as senior lecturers), can nonetheless be professors in US usage. Since this is an article about a US President, it should use American English, and so the American usage of "professor" should apply. But maybe it should mention the difference in usage, for the benefit of non-US readers? (Or even some US readers who seem to be unfamiliar with their own dialect of English?) --
SJK (
talk) 08:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, yes I meant more loosely not less loosely, I have corrected myself. I think there is a difference between a word like "President" or "Senate" and a word like "professor". Most people know that "President" or "Senate" means rather different things in different countries -- the US President has very different powers from the Irish President; the US Senate is a very different institution from the Canadian Senate. On the other hand, the fact that different countries use the word "professor" differently is not so obvious. Its easy for someone to read the word "professor", and read it according to the usage they are familiar with, and not realise it means something different in the dialect or context in which the article is written. So I think, if we are going to call Obama a "professor", we should clarify (even if just by a footnote) that a professor in US usage need not be a full professor (unlike Australian/British usage). -- SJK ( talk) 08:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Could somebody put a supplement into the first 100 days section regarding Obama's Nobel Peace Prize nomination? I feel it should be noted that the Peace Prize nominations closed on February 1, only 10 days after he took office. The subsequent controversy arising from that nomination is based on events in his first 10 days in office, and what he did (or didn't do, depending on your point of view) Big mack1 ( talk) 07:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} In the first sentence the page labels Barack Obama as an African American when he is not. He is an American because he was born here. If it is necessary to point out he is black then he is an African because his father is from Kenya. Only people brought on slave ships and their descendants are African Americans.
Psuengr ( talk) 01:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Not done
Maybe if this was before the civil war the op would be right but since then African American is defined as those Americans who have African ancestry or have at least one parent from Africa. Now would people shut up about this shit? You people will say anything to deny the fact that you have a African American as a president, get over it. 98.82.103.91 ( talk) 20:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that some people don't want to use the word "Black". So they use "African American". African American is not the same as Black. Nelson Mandela has been called African American but he said he is not African American. He said he is not American. He is correct. So just because some sources says Obama Sr. is African American is not enough. Otherwise, you'd call Nelson Mandela an African American. Obama Sr. is not African American. Obama II is sort of, close enough for me. Judith Merrick ( talk) 19:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I heard that Obama was once a member of the New Party and did a google search to get some information. A couple of links I immediately found are here: http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/10/obama-file-36-how-socialist-was-obamas.html http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/archives_prove_obama_was_a_new.html
Obviously these two sites are extremely biased against Obama, but every single page I find on the subject is pretty much the same. Despite the bias and tone of the articles, the evidence appears to be pretty solid and I haven't been able to find any compelling evidence that he was NOT a member of the party, however briefly. Could someone do a more thorough check on this? If he was a member, I think it should be added to the article.
Apologies if this has been discussed before.
User:Dilcoe —Preceding undated comment added 03:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC).
Entry 6 of the FAQ suggests that criticisms should be a part of each entry yet I have yet to SEE any criticisms and I don't actually believe that having a criticism section makes for a poor article and denying one makes me suspicious of bias. I must have somehow missed the numerous criticisms and controversies content but cannot seem to find a single one throughout the entirety of the Obama articles, or even a single entry within other sections, it is almost as though the man is projected as some sort of latter day saint. Please would someone paste me the content/links that I being blind must have missed? Twobells ( talk) 12:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
'Laundry lists for right-wing caterwauling'? You have to be kidding me right? Who said anything about the right-wing.... Are you suggesting that any journalistic or legal critiques of the man indicate 'right-wing' bias? If what you say is true about the GW Bush entry then I think that is equally amiss. A WP:NOV is not some sort of flag to deny any criticism but to remain neutral and project the FACTS some of which some will be critiques. Twobells ( talk) 12:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC) The world leader entries have critique sections, an example: Tony Blair#Criticism and yet it seems that US presidents don't, interesting indeed and now I understand why wikipedia has been banned as a research tool in many educational institutions. Twobells ( talk) 13:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
All above, and also, having standalone criticism and controversy sections will devolve into "Muslim Kenyan Anti-Christ communist racist atheist fascist who wants to nationalise your hopey-changey socialism and gay abort your grandma who isn't shovel ready and he also killed and raped a girl in 1990". It's why they're discouraged, actually. Criticism of articles are the exception and not the norm. Incidentally, you gave GWB as an example, but that criticism article was gotten rid of (in name, at least) a year ago when we agreed that it was unfair to have one for Bush (especially as he did have outstanding approval ratings in his first term) but not for Obama (whose approval ratings are average and actually higher the same as Godking of Conservatism Reagan's in '82). Sceptre ( talk) 20:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
this sectionis why wikipedia can never be neutral on anything ever other than unknowingly for a few seconds before the edit war will loom. so much texts , so much insults , 0 constructive cooperation. also hint - the left criticizes obama too so are foreign nations outside the US left-wing axis 79.182.50.19 ( talk) 21:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
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CitizenshipIn regards to Wikipedias answer "The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article". The president of the United States Of America is supposed to be an american born citizen. If the president was indeed born in Kenya wouldn't this create a "significant legal or mainstream political impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.52.129 ( talk) 23:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Ties to Rules for Radicals by Saul AlinskyWhere are the ties to Saul Alinsky?? You mention George W. Bush as a member of the Skulls and Bones society. Don't you think people might want to understand WHERE obama got his radical views? One of Obama's early mentors in the Alinsky method, Mike Kruglik, would later say the following about Obama:
For several years, Obama himself taught workshops on the Alinsky method. Also, beginning in the mid-1980s, Obama worked with ACORN, the Alinskyite grassroots political organization that grew out of George Wiley's National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO). Can we have some honest accounting of this guy? http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2314 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppakap ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC) |
I may have missed it but nowhere in the article does it mention that Obama failed to close Guantanamo down by his self-set deadline. I feel this is notable enough to be included under foreign policy. However, as a new user I did not want to do this in case I was breaking a rule/repeating. I do not have an anti-Obama bias but I feel this is notable. Thanks. Jamioe ( talk) 15:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
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How come the article lists Barack Obama as the first African American president? Is it not more accurate to state that he is the first president of mixed race? If one may say "He is first African American President," is it not equally valid to say "He is the 44th White American president"? Why is his white heritage blatantly ignored? It is simply unfair to not acknowledge his white ancestry, given he is equally as "white" as he is "black." Onixz100 ( talk) 02:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
A reminder: this is not the place for continuing discussion of the relative merits of being considered African American or anything else - the only thing relevant here is DD2K's correct point that we go by what reliable sources say. And the article does, of course, make clear exactly who his parents and grandparents were. Tvoz/ talk 16:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC) He is the 6th, yes i said 6th mixed president. "The only difference between Obama and these former presidents is that none of their family histories were fully acknowledged by others" http://diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/1461/. just because he is the first to proclaim his african decent does not mean he is fully black. as we all know his mother is WHITE, yes i said WHITE. It should read something different than what it it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scootnasty ( talk • contribs) 23:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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Under economics it is mentioned that the ARRA gave money for education and infrastructure, but it leaves out the VA. The ARRA allocated a large sum of money for the VA for much needed facility renovation. Is there any way that can be included? -- 152.131.9.132 ( talk) 20:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
We're not dealing with birther conspiracies day in and day out. Consult the FAQ, pls. Tarc ( talk) 22:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC) |
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It is reported that Kenyan government officials have recently declared that President Obama is actually born in Kenya. According to an article at WorldNetDaily [http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=139725], a member of the Kenyan Parliament named James Orengo said in March 2010, "How could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the president of America? Millie Odhiambo, another member of Kenya's parliament, even declared, "The president-elect, Mr. Obama, is a son of the soil of this country." Also, a YouTube video [8] showed First Lady Michelle Obama Michelle Obama saying that her husband's "... home country was in Kenya...." I do not want to stir up more controversy regarding this issue, but I believe this new discovery deserves some critical attention. Whaley5000 ( talk) 22:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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I look forward to hearing something. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 07:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
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A user would be able to browse Barack Obama's past pictures using the timeline horizontal scrollbar. There is a column on the right side of the page where all the events attended by Barack Obama is listed.If you click on it, only those images of barack obama show up. I would like to recommend this link to the "External Links" section. Suggestions? Agarwal113 ( talk) 07:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I would appreciate input from editors of this article regarding this recent edit naming Barack Obama as an "alleged" practitioner of Taqiyya. Thank you. -- Ibn ( talk) 12:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
There are [9] [10] multiple (there are many more) valid, reputable sources that acknowledge that President Obama used the name Barry Soetoro when he was a youth in Indonesia, and more than just a nickname, but a name he was registered for school as. Suppressing the fact that he was known as a different name at one point is disingenuous and needs to stop. The sources are there. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
You can't just say editors are "biased" and refuse to acknolwedge a consensus. Consensus is pretty clear here, no single admin is going to come in and "moderate" this to your liking against consensus (unless that consensus were in violation of policy, which it isn't). If you disagree, open an request for comment for further opinion. Dayewalker ( talk) 05:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Dispute between myself and DD2K in regards to the inclusion of sourced material in this article. --
Erroneuz1 (
talk) 19:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
We need good sources. If Obama was really Barry, this should be mentioned just as Gerald Ford was formerly known as Leslie King.
Willie Sutton Bank President (
talk) 21:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC) (striking comments of banned sockpuppet)
So, where the article states:
"From ages six to ten, Obama attended local schools in Jakarta, including Besuki Public School and St. Francis of Assisi School.[16][17]"
add, after "school"..."where he was registered as Barry Soetoro." I've been reading here and in archives. "Consensus" should not allow the majority to leave out facts. He was, in fact, "registered" as Barry Soetoro. So... say so. ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 00:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
Oh. I just looked at my handle. THAT'S a 'shot' or 'dig' at VP Cheney who was contemptuous of "paleocons". I voted for Obama. For the aficionados, I even voted for "Baghdad Jim". ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 00:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
I undid an by Wikifan12345 that included a link to Haaretz that had nothing to do with the issue and to the Jerusalem Post that makes it seem as if building settlements in East Jerusalem is no big deal. Now, I am almost always "pro-Israeli", but I know this is a highly contentious issue and the UN resolutions and recognized borders come into play here. I don't want this to turn into an Israeli-Palestinian battleground, so it's best to leave the language as it was and not add to it with views from all sides. Perhaps if the current language is not agreeable to everyone, someone can suggest something else. DD2K ( talk) 14:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
"Wikifan", do you re-read your entries? I added "not" between "certainly" and "the". Which, may I say, is the truth. I COULD say a lot more about this..... but, I forebear. ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 01:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
if the page isnt supposed to talk about the conspiracy theories (faq q#5) then there should be a link to Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories -- Usyflad 10 01:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
As sort of an "aside": DD2K, I see your handle, all over the place, in various disputes. Am I wrong in asking (honest question) that "all" of your entries involve keeping certain entries "off" of this article? Are you "for" any facts, at all, being added? ( Paleocon44 ( talk) 01:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
Why isn't "Barack H. Obama" the title of this article when the article on former president George Bush is titled, "George W. Bush"?
I don't believe that there is a "consensus" among all economists that the stimulus package credit the economic growth. There are economists out there that disagree.-- Jerzeykydd ( talk) 16:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
You think that's biased? It's all cited and sourced by reliable sources and looks pretty well balanced to me. DD2K ( talk) 22:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)Unemployment numbers rose briefly to as high as 10.1% in October 2009 (the highest since 1983), and the "underemployment" rate to 17.5%, before decreasing and holding at 9.7% in early 2010. In the third quarter of 2009, the U.S. economy expanded at a 2.8% pace and in the fourth quarter it grew at its fastest rate in six years, 5.7%. A consensus of economists credit the stimulus package with helping to stop the downturn and create economic growth. In February 2010 the Congressional Budget Office released a report stating that the stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs. Other possible signs of recovery included an upturn in exports and a rise in consumer spending.
People can have differing views without disrupting an article. You deleted a whole section with the edit summary stating "no specific nonpartisan economists were mentioned in the articles", deleting 3 sourced links( 1, 2, 3) that had at least 4 nonpartisan economists and three independent forecasting-analysis groups sourced in their articles. Then you deleted the section once again, deleting the 3 sources and the cited material, with an edit summary stating "Paul Krugman is a liberal economists...it appears that DD2K has been obstructionist....I think DD2K has a liberal bias", as if Krugman was the only economist cited. On an article that is on probation, that borders on vandalism, at least. Finally you took your dispute to the talk page, after being reverted by three other editors, and made a request. Even though I do not agree with the content in your request, I added the material. Which still did not satisfy you as you continued to delete cited material two more times( 1, 2) and changed the wording of the addition you requested to fit your own view on what the source stated. I would say you deliberately put a false edit summary to justify removing material that you did not like, even though it was well sourced with reliable sources. DD2K ( talk) 23:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Obama doesn't speak Indonesian "at a conversational level." He knows a few words - he couldn't have a conversation with someone in Indonesian. He probably knows about as much French as he knows Indonesian ("terima kasih" = "merci", "apa kabar" = "comment allez-vous"). To quote Obama: "I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!" [14] Urmarkt ( talk) 23:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not called Indonesian. It is Bahasa Indonesia. 18:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by The McChicken costs $1 ( talk • contribs)
I'll leave this to someone else to write up but.... One thing that should be noted is Obama's strong support of Acta. Some people are widely support his stance, others strongly opposing, I think this is enough of an issue to be warrent a mention....
and article by cnn is here http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20000347-261.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Primefalcon ( talk • contribs) 11:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
To be honest I don't see anything significant about this yet. Maybe if it passes, but even then it needs to prove important. The existence of vehement debate doesn't make it notable. Vehement debate happens all the time over trivial and important things. Bottom line here is that nothing has passed and there is no way to know how important ACTA will be yet.23:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs)
Obama received an honorary doctoral degree of law from the university of michigan as of today (May 1st 2010). Perhaps somebody could include that information? VonLoyola 18:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
My comments were shoved into a box as well as many others. The excuse is that there is no change to the article. Most discussions do not lead to change but that doesn't mean discussion should be silenced. What's the big deal? The ACLU is for discussion. The John Birch Society is against discussion. Right wingers should not have the final say here. The McChicken costs $1 ( talk) 23:33, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
It needs to be archived again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.63.194 ( talk) 18:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
OP banned as sockpuppet; no compelling reason to refute current and historical RSs and mischaracterization of consensus - no change to be made to article |
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The consensus for that discussion was that Obama's religion is United Church of Christ. There was some support for Protestant. Christianity was not the consensus but a 3rd choice. Judith Merrick ( talk) 19:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Gaydenver was found not to be a sock of JB50000 but Tarc was accused of being a sock. Huh? It seems that the pro-Christianity people were quibbling over "a minor issue". In terms of objectivity, Christianity's sources are SPS (self published sources) which are deemed unreliable. References show that he is United Church of Christ. Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright, not the Church. Obama was on TV yesterday and he did not repudiate the United Church of Christ. He just doesn't go to church often but has designated Camp David as his church for now. Judith Merrick ( talk) 21:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, that was not the consensus. Also, the sock puppet investigation did not find anyone to be different people, in fact the conclusion was that they were either the same person or in close contact IRL. I would call that either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. While I appreciate the work done by the admins and CUs, it's unbelievable to me that you and the others listed are not either the same person or working to undermine Wikipedia together. In any case, it doesn't matter right now. All of your proposals were rejected and claiming 'consensus' when there is none is eerily familiar. DD2K ( talk) 23:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources. Technically, Obama is a former member of the United Church of Christ, see this correspondence, and the cited Associated Press article says as much: "The United Church of Christ, the denomination from which Obama resigned when he left Wright's church, issued a written invitation to join a UCC denomination in Washington and resume his connections to the church." Obama has not yet resumed his connections, so the UCC is most likely is, and will remain, his former denomination, yet these sources are not quite enough verification to assert that the UCC is indeed his former denomination, e.g. United Church of Christ (until 2008) added underneath Christianity. To do so, I think we may need additional secondary or tertiary sources that verify his break with the UCC as a consequence of leaving Trinity. -- Modocc ( talk) 17:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Barak Obama Sr. was a Muslim, Barak Obama II is a Muslim by birth. So that needs to be added to the information, please. 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 04:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Iankap99, you need to take a Comparative Religion class. Barak Obama II is a Muslim by birth. 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 06:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello again. Respectfully, if one wishes to figure out why some have one opinion and some another, that's the very reason we archive these talk pages; the expressions of those opinions are found there. You could also do some reading at reliable sources elsewhere. If you're interested in being a part of such a conversation, you might take a class on comparative religion, find a chat room off Wikipedia, or discuss this at a Wiki Project for religion.
This page isn't actually here for any and all comers to participate in an open discussion about and and all general or specific themes related directly or indirectly to the article subject or data herein. It is here so specific, rational and well-sourced suggestions for improvements to the article may be discussed and potential changes honed; or, alternatively, for explanation of why edits or suggestions are found to be inappropriate for this brief bio. Discussions viz a viz this subject have already transpired several times over and, contrary to your comment in a "censorship" thread below, you didn't add anything new to that broader discussion. One's very first thought and very second thought on an issue (particularly when they are hunches and not actually rooted in fact) isn't necessarily helpful, especially as it is apparently not your intent to change the wording in the article, and for all of these reasons your comments are irrelevant to the purpose of this page in general and this thread in particular. We welcome your educated suggestions on other issues that might be appropriate for article inclusion, and that's best done by participating in an active thread or beginning a reliably sourced thread of your own, as you did with the Uganda situation. Hopefully you can understand that reopening or appending multiple closed threads without understanding the reasons for closure and without any compelling turn of events altering the situation, and without even intending to change the consensus in every case, is not the best way to enter the editorial process. Incidentally, something is technically amiss with the formatting of the now-closed thread above, as prior to McChicken's post there of 5/12 it had lingered several days past the current 10-day auto-archive date, in fact 150% of the current standard archival period. Can someone adept at this sort of thing give it a look? Abrazame ( talk) 08:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC) Looks like the period is 14 days, whatever. The point is this is not a discussion of opinion. The instructions say to discuss changes for the article. The man is Protestant, I don't know why there is such an effort to call him just Christian. Usually that term is used in countries where most people are not Christian. Since this article is about an American, Protestant is better. If the article is about a Lebanese in Lebanon, then Christian might be better because Shites and Sunnis do not know the difference between Catholics and Methodists. Obama is not a Catholic, fa4r from that! Again, OBAMA IS NOT A CATHOLIC, so using Christian for an American living in the U.S. is not a good idea. This is the suggestion that I have for improving the biography. The Chicken costs $1 ( talk) 19:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
UCC is not liberal. The Unitarians are the liberals. About 10 years ago, they were in the news when a Unitarian church had a "show your talents" sermon. Some churchgoers played musical instruments but they allowed a stripper to do partial striptease, taking off most of her clothes. Obama is not keeping things private, he is just keeping things normal. This Easter, he went to a civilian church rather than the Camp David Chapel. Rather than privacy, what Obama is doing is not having the press office blow up the issue like they do for the news of the day that they want to promote. All presidents plan strategy on when to release big news and what big news to release. Some big news is event driven (like the oil spill) but some big news is driven by the political aides, like when to make a big stink about the economy or immigration. http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-takes-easter-mass-church-regular/story?id=10283263 Your suggestion is better than mine. UCC is more specific than my idea of Protestant. The Chicken costs $1( talk) 01:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
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The article says that Obama is the first African American to become president. While it is true he is not white like the previous presidents, he is not completely African American. His father is African American and his mother is white, which makes him the first mixed president. Just a quick fixup would be much appreciated.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Architectheroes ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Just because a piece of information is repeatedly, even by sources often considered reliable, does not make something true, especially if the information is heavily tinged with cultural bias. Calling Obama "African-American" and leaving it at that is misleading. Like so many other cases when we focus on the "otherness" of someone we identify as a minority, we make the privileged group invisible. Since it is taken for granted that somebody is white, straight, or male, (etc) we only give specifics when they belong to the less-privileged group. Calling Obama "African-American" instead of "biracial" or "multiracial" enforces white hegemony. I understand this topic has been discussed extensively, but I don't see any evidence that this harmful aspect has been addressed. Sabbrielle ( talk) 22:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
It may be noteworthy to mention that Obama is biracial but chose African-American/Black/Negro on the census form instead of multiracial. Maybe it could read after it says where his mother was white and father Kenyan Luo that "Obama declared his race as 'African-American/Black/Negro on the 2010 census form and not 'some other race' or both black and 'white'." (This last part, not some other race, is quoted from the NY Times article and is not my conclusion. It's their conclusion) References: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/what-the-wild-things-are/201004/president-obama-checks-the-black-box http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/us/politics/03census.html http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/2137473,obama-census-black-040210.article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/02/politics/main6357568.shtml http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/04/nation/la-na-obama-census4-2010apr04 I am surprised that there are so much coverage over this issue and makes one think that Wikipedia should also devote one sentence to it (summarizing dozens of news reports into one simple sentence). The McChicken costs $1 ( talk) 01:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC) The suggested change to the article is just a short sentence "In answering the 2010 census, Obama checked one box under the race question, "African-American/Black/Negro"." The Chicken costs $1 ( talk) 19:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC) |
I was interested in the phrase: "He is the first African American to hold the office." Is this the best way to phrase this?
I hope this fosters some discussion. Thank you. Newuser54 ( talk) 04:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Why are Navbox, Time Persons of the Year 2001-2025, Featured article, and the Link FAs redlinks? Is it a template limitation? They aren't redlinks in the history of the article. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 02:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)