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"After announcing his presidential campaign in February 2007, Obama emphasized withdrawing American troops from Iraq, energy independence, decreasing the influence of lobbyists, and promoting universal health care as top national priorities."
None of the other 3 candidates have a section which describes their campaign goals, So I have a few questions: 1. Is this type of language appropriate for Obama? 2. Would a sentence like this be appropriate for each of the other candidates? If not, why? LedRush ( talk) 15:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
GoodDamon, thank you for providing the link. This was pretty much exactly what I was expecting. When you read the list, it is mainly non-binding resolutions commending worthy individuals or offering emotional support to medical research efforts. The article claims that two of Obama's bills have become law. It is an interesting claim but not one I was able to confirm. The link did not support the claim. Can you do any better? RonCram ( talk) 19:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) If people want to know which Obama sponsored bills became law, go search for it. However, those two pieces of legislation are not necessarily more important to Obama than any of the bills he's sponsored. If he says that something is his priority, and he's sponsored bills to that end, regardless of whether or not Congress passed them, I think that deserves to be mentioned in the article. But if he doesn't indicate that the laws he sponsored were his priority, why would they meet the weight requirement in the article over his actual statements? LedRush ( talk) 15:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain why I can't say he graduated without honors at Columbia but this article can talk about graduating Magna Cum Laude at Harvard? Why can't I add it? No reason was given for its deletion. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 03:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
---Ah I've been reverted again! Can I do nothing right?---
I thought it would be interesting to add the fact that Obama attended the Million Man March. I remember it at the time, and it was a pretty big deal back then and at least as important as "Project Vote." Can someone please explain how such information was considered "vandalism?" I do not understand why it is not allowed in this place that loves free thought and information. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 03:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) The New Yorker has some very good examples of journalism in it. Haven't you read it? TheGoodLocust ( talk) 04:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
---Lo! My edit is gone! Curse these hands of mine!---
I guess the fact that Blair Hull's divorce records were unsealed, which destroyed Barack's democratic frontrunner-rival and paved the way for Barack to enter the US Senate is "too much detail." And yet, I guess when his republican rival's divorce records are unsealed, in that same race, that is just the right amount of detail to make it into the article. It must be like the Three Bears and their porridge. In retrospect, I can see how silly it was of me to try and include how Barack came to power in the Senate - it really is a trivial matter. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 05:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is supposed to be a summary of the article. However, when I go to the section on his Senate career, this is not mentioned. Why is it in the summary but not the actual article? Even if it was in the article, I'm not sure what makes it notable enough to include in the summary. What is the purpose of this sentence other than an attempt to bolster his foreign policy experience? 67.184.14.87 ( talk) 17:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
A number of Obama controversies have been kept out of the article by claims that there is no WP:RS. This claim is not true. Determining where these reports fit in the article would be the next order of business. But for now we need to discuss if there is some other reason to keep these out of the article. Here they are along with a RS.
"Another strong supporter of Obama's work--as an organizer, as a lawyer, and now as a candidate--is Madeline Talbott, lead organizer of the feisty ACORN community organization, a group that's a thorn in the side of most elected officials. "I can't repeat what most ACORN members think and say about politicians. But Barack has proven himself among our members. He is committed to organizing, to building a democracy. Above all else, he is a good listener, and we accept and respect him as a kindred spirit, a fellow organizer."
Obama continues his organizing work largely through classes for future leaders identified by ACORN and the Centers for New Horizons on the south side. Conducting a session in a New Horizons classroom, Obama, tall and thin, looks very much like an Ivy League graduate student. Dressed casually prep, his tie loosened and his top shirt button unfastened, he leads eight black women from the Grand Boulevard community through a discussion of "what folks should know" about who in Chicago has power and why they have it. It's one of his favorite topics, and the class bubbles with suggestions about how "they" got to be high and mighty."
Sounds to me like he is teaching ACORN leaders. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 05:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Please do not insert, or repeatedly propose, fringe material for this article. Among the subjects that will not make it into the article are speculation that Obama is Muslim, not born in the US, ineligible for President, has a forged birth certificate, is not African-American, or is Arab. This entire discussion is borderline disruptive for promoting this stuff. Pushing this material after you have been cautioned to avoid it is likely to get you blocked or banned from editing Obama-related material due to disruption. Further, although not quite fringe, editors here have repeatedly rejected detailed coverage of partisan criticism like the accusations against CAC, or playing up Obama's association with various controversial groups (or the controveries about those groups). If you are going to propose it, please be orderly, respectful, start on the talk page rather than the article, and graceful enough to accept it if it is clear there is no consensus to add disputed material. Starting out a proposal by accusing editors of partisanship or bias is not a good way to earn consensus, and by the terms of article probation this page is for proposing article content, not complaining about other editors. Thanks, Wikidemon ( talk) 05:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with what Wikidemon said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfno7 ( talk • contribs)
This link from the Honolulu star says Barack was born in the Kapiolani medical center, while this link, used elsewhere in wikipedia, says he was born in the Queen's medical center. Can someone help me find out which hospital he was born in? I've confirmed through google maps that these are indeed two different places. Thanks in advance. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 20:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I beleive that this article is begining to show a slightliberal bias. Please fix this soon. This is exactly the bias that Wikipedia is so often accused of having. We need to hold the same standards that any other refrence holds, even is this is a community project. 71.186.32.139 ( talk) 00:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who believes that Wikipedia has a liberal bias has not been following Talk:Sarah Palin. Tvoz/ talk 23:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I have seen that some attempts to have references added to the "Family and personal life" section regarding Obama's admitting to "Bumming" cigarettes have been prevented. Personally I am not wholly convinced that the issue of whether or not he smokes is very note worthy in the first place, of course if his attempt is in fact "Highly publicized" as stated in the article I am more than willing to accept it. However if it is noteworthy than whether or not he has been successful seems to me to be equally as noteworthy. Also the fact that Obama himself openly and honestly stated he had bummed cigarettes during an interview with an established health magazine (Men's Health), and that has been quoted by many other online news outlets seems to indicated that reliable sources are readily available.
I am bringing this up here before making any edits because this is obviously an article that should not be edited lightly, and one in which edit wars and such are quite likely. Therefore I would like to get a feeling as to why these references have been removed before taking any action. So if anyone has opinions on this please let me know so we can achieve some level of consensus before adding, or deciding not to add the references. Thanks,(Edited to add signature) Colincbn ( talk) 10:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
(I feel like Johnny Five) As I stated above I think the small bit on Obama's quitting smoking is not patrticularly notible in the first place and does not add much, if anything, to the article. However if we are going to mention it, especially in regards to "The stresses of the campaign", then I think fully covering the situation on the campaign trail with all information available from citable reliable sources should be included. So far one editor has graciously given his/her opinon on the matter (please see above) and I would like more people to chime-in. Thanks, Colincbn ( talk) 05:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed (and removed) a digression into Jack Ryan's marriage/divorce that had been added to the article some time recently. Unfortunately, it appears to have been added more than a week ago, but I didn't notice at the time. This was all discussed and taken out because it's irrelevant months ago.
Two things: Does anyone know who added this silliness back in? Second, please keep an eye to make sure it doesn't come back. This is an article on Obama, not on Ryan. Stating his initial opponent in the Senate race is fine, but beyond Ryan's withdrawal from the race, his biography is irrelevant to Obama's biography (I'm sure it belongs in Ryan's bio, but that's a different article). LotLE× talk 21:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I dug it up: [10]. What were you thinking, Bobblehead?! Not a good thing to add back this irrelevant nonsense (I didn't expect it from such an otherwise excellent and productive editor here). LotLE× talk 21:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I also SUPPORT the inclusion of this information in the article. Maybe someone should be bold and add it? Digital Ninja 21:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
No. It's only peripherally related to Obama, and there's zero evidence Obama himself was in any way associated with it. It should stay gone. -- Good Damon 21:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
As may have become obvious, I no longer have a tolerance for the refusal of any editor to accept that opinion blogs and editorials are not reliable sources and cannot be used in a BLP to support statements of fact, whether it is Obama's or John McCain's. It is disruptive to continuously bring them back up, or bring up new ones, or complain here because of the wording of WP:RS and WP:BLP, and frustrating for other editors when they have to repeat themselves. Therefore, I make the following proposal:
At this point, I don't think there's any other way. It's time for this to stop.
GoodDamon, question about your proposal: why RSN and not ANI or ARV? My perception is that continued claims of birth certificate/citizenship issues, muslim canards, etc. when there is reliably sourced stuff in the article and pages and pages of archived discussions on each of these topics in the archives is WP:Disruptive editing. I also think your idea above should apply to this talkpage per WP:BLP as "poorly sourced contentious materials" -- guyzero | talk 22:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
So I'm seeing all support, and no objections. I'll go ahead and reorganize the FAQ into logical groups and add this to it. The FAQ is getting kind of big, so any assistance in trimming/consolidating would be appreciated. -- Good Damon 18:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is supposed to be a summary of the article. However, when I go to the section on his Senate career, it's hardly even mentioned. I do not understand why this is notable enough to be in the summary when the article itself hardly discusses it. When I read the summary, the impression I get is that this is an attempt to bolster his foreign policy experience. Can anyone explain why this is notable enough to be in the summary but not notable enough to be discussed at any length in the article itself? 12.10.248.51 ( talk) 12:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with either solution. We should decide how much weight those trips abroad carry for the BLP and either expand on them a little in the body, or remove them from the lead. -- Good Damon 14:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
In the opening of the article Obama is called a junior United States Senator. I was wondering if anyone had a reliable definition of "Junior Senator". Also I'm just going to capitalize "Junior" in the article for the time being, based on the fact that it is part of his proper title, and should be capatalized. Spartan123209 ( talk) 22:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Archiving as unlikely to achieve changes to the article. -- Good Damon 02:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe (obviously as well as other people as seen here) and other references, that this article in not presented in a neutral fashion. Especially in light of the upcoming election, this article seems to be maintained and monitored by a group of liberal editors protecting the article and it's subject from any negative light, regardless of WP:RS WP:SOURCE WP:WEIGHT, often hiding behind those policies by the letter instead of the spirit.
It is also my understanding that when a significant number of editors feels the neutrality of the article is unbalanced, that the neutrality tag is added. We need to have a discussion regarding this matter, which I'll start.
(undent) If I spend the amount of time I plan to gathering and organizing a proposal for this information and it's completely ignored (e.g. discussion prematurely closed) I'll seek enough established editors to weigh in on a neutrality tag. It's dreadfully apparent this article has some serious problems IMO. Digital Ninja 22:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's first establish why you even think this article is "non-neutral". Because there's no mention of the controversy that people claim he may be a "secret Muslim"? Or is it because it doesn't discuss the off-the-wall belief that he wasn't born in the United States? Because if those are the reasons, you're going to have to make a hell of an argument as to why they deserve any mention in this article. Grsz X 22:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you really want to put in every piece of gossip that floats around about a politician? Obama didn't do anything illegal, he wasn't remotely involved in any of the respective controversies (Ayers setting bombs, ACORN allegedly turning in fraudulent voter registrations), and these 'connections' are only ever discussed as some sort of vague question of his judgment. It simply isn't significant. Stop calling it an appalling view point and say why it is significant. Why? What did Obama and Ayers do together that matters beyond a talking point during an election? What did Obama do for ACORN that matters beyond gossip or blog fodder? Watergate was a scandal. Whitewater was a scandal. Monica Lewinski was a scandal. Swiftboat Vetrans for Truth was a personal attack that became a significant part of John Kerry's life story. Ayers and ACORN is...nothing. I'm sorry, but unless someone is making a documentary about the Weathermen Bill Ayers isn't an important figure anymore. He's a slight figure in public education issues in Chicago, but certainly not worth mentioning in someone's bio with nothing more than the two knew each other. I mean what you're wanting is for an article to be like seven degrees with Kevin Bacon. So and so knew so and so and worked with so and so and at one time had dinner with so and so. ACORN is the really laughable news story because he represented them once in a case. That's really it. There's no story. None of it is relevant or significant beyond pundit conjecture and tabloid journalism. Just answer me this without calling me or my opinions appalling or saying I'm being partisan or stupid or whatever, in the grand scheme of his life, not just the election but Obama's overall life, what significance does Ayers or ACORN really have?
Is it just a frivolous character attack that is forgotten the second an election is over or is there something of more significance? If you have something that is more significant, then by all means, but you have yet to articulate anything of credible importance. Rezko I could almost see. There's at least the possibility of unethical behavior there. Ayers and ACORN are both non stories. Leave the whole 'the American people have a right to know' nonsense concerning commonplace character attacks to pundits and blogs. It isn't necessary for inclusion here, it doesn't fit this page's purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
If I could just weigh in here regarding the Ayers issue as an editor who doesn't edit this page. If we do mention him sitting on the board, we must mention every person who sat on the board and focus only on the board and not Ayers. Wikipedia isn't a place to continue attacks of a presidential campaign regardless of whether they are true or not (the McCain campaign and Obama campaign are not reliable secondary sources). But we'd need reliable sources to state that Obama sitting on this board is relevant to his biography. It could be, I don't really know enough to know for sure. WP:RECENT is somewhat being violated here given the 'issue' about Obama serving on the same board as Ayers was only brought up for the first time several months ago (nationally, at least) despite it happening over a decade ago. NcSchu( Talk) 20:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Last time a presidential candidate purchased airtime similar to this was in 1992 by Ross Perot(a third party candidate). If anyone wants to expand on this topic or discuss what precedence this might set for future elections?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-worldseries-obama&prov=ap&type=lgns]
Nixon did in 1952 when he was running as Vice President with Eisenhower to defend "Checkers". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.164.115.210 ( talk) 03:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(Closing as disruptive per the FAQ. Don't like it? I'll be happy to take this "source" to WP:RSN per the FAQ, where it will be utterly demolished, you will be warned to stop, and administrators will agree with my decision. Or... You could just stop doing this, and focus on finding reliably sourced information from now on.) -- Good Damon 16:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
In a webcast titled "B-Cast: Is Obama Being Truthful About His Involvement With ACORN?" internet news reporters Liz Stephans and Scott Baker check the factual accuracy of Obama's statements in the final debate. They show a clip from FOX News and also look at original documents and point out errors on www.fightthesmears.com. The article in its current state misleads readers into thinking there are no controversies around Obama's statements about his associations. This needs to be corrected because the article does not conform to Wikipedia's NPOV standard. RonCram ( talk) 14:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to remind editors of the following guidelines:-
Following these should help to ensure that discussions here stay brief, to the point, and productive. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 16:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Though his baptism is taken for granted by the average reader, there are many who are not sure what his religious beliefs are. For their sake it is necessary to specifically state he was baptized into the Trinity United Church of Christ. So I have added the reference to his baptism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SahirShah ( talk • contribs) 12:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
This is going on, and two (possible) sources claim that Barack Obama is connected to ACORN and that org is involved in a voter related scandal. See the ACORN talk page.
Obama began seeking the New Party endorsement in 1995. He had been running in a four way primary against his former boss, Senator Alice Palmer, herself a far left radical, and two other individuals. But an election law quirk gave Obama the upper hand. In order to get on the ballot, candidates had to collect signatures of voters. Printed names were not allowed. Obama challenged the petitions of his rivals and was able to get every one of them thrown off the ballot. By the time the ballot was drawn up for the 1996 election, Obama’s was the only name in the race.
Nonetheless, Obama still coveted the New Party endorsement. The New Party required candidates who received the endorsement sign a pledge of support for the party. Obama did not need to support a party that was, in effect, a front group for communists; yet he still chose to. The July issue of the New Ground noted that 15% of the New Party consisted of Democratic Socialists of America members and a good number of Committee of Correspondence members.
Barack Obama, not needing to, chose to affiliate himself with this band of quasi-communists. As the nation moves closer to the election, it is clear that Obama chose to affiliate with assorted anti-American radicals. Machiavelli once noted that we can know a leader by the people he surrounds himself with. What does that say about Barack Obama, who chose to surround himself with people committed to overthrowing the United States and capitalism?
---I am curious - why is Mr. Obama's signature a part of this page?--- 4.242.174.169 ( talk) 06:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
A few users have been spouting the "Obama's an Arab" thing, which is even more ludicrous than the Muslim thing. I noticed it's not explicitly mentioned in the FAQ, probably could be. -- Jaysweet ( talk) 18:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC) starting to feel a little guilty about it... --19:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
There was a recent change to the section, an addition by Ferrylodge of a short paragraph that said "He's sometimes perceived as elitist, but points out he grew up poor and worked hard." It was worded better than my paraphrase, and I have no objection to it (nor any strong advocacy for it... it was removed by another editor).
However, reading the section with somewhat fresh eyes, I feel like everything in it is more-or-less completely arbitrary and capricious. Dickerson makes a moderately interesting comment, but without any evidence it is of particularly great significance to overall "image" of the bio subject. Noonan likewise makes a comment, likewise interesting but of no indicated significance. The Ferrylodge paragraph (whether finally kept or skipped) has the exact same satus: true enough as far as citations go, interesting enough, and no evidence of broader biographical significance.
I'm puzzled by what to do with the section. I think it's slightly relevant to have such a section at all, but nothing inside it stands out as actually worth keeping. Quite apart from likely edit conflict, I'm ambivalent about taking a hatchet to the whole thing. On the other hand, I really don't like devoting paragraphs to "Some random pundit wrote <blah>".
Ideas? LotLE× talk 17:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like this is gaining traction - seems relevant to this article [12] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 01:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
What about this [13]? 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 00:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Rule of thumb: If the source is any of the following:
...then it's only a reliable source for its owner/author's opinion, not for statements of fact. -- Good Damon 00:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
ok, here's the WSJ [14] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 15:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Here's some more information - it alleges that Obama campaign and ACORN are working together to steal the vote in Ohio. [15] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 22:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC) is
(change) I have attempted to change Senator Obama's photo on his page to another which is in the Commons and is at the very least a more interesting portrait than the ubiquitous "security" photo that has resided there for some time. What is the beef with changing the photo? Prosediva ( talk) 04:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify discussion: let's include the images. Just so the new editors understand, we need consensus to change the current image. It doesn't really look like the suggestion is even running a majority, but consensus is a higher bar (it doesn't mean any precise percentage, but 80% is sometimes taken as a proxy number where the possibilities for discussion are somewhat limited, as here). LotLE× talk 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Bobblehead's copyright claim contradicts the information given on the "Obama by Capital" image. The image page itself states that the image is a government-created public domain work. I do not have any knowledge of the true copyright status beyond that claim... however, I do not think there is any harm in leaving the image on the talk page for a short while until or unless it is actually deleted from the commons as copyrighted. As I've stated, I do not myself support using the newly proposed image. But the suggestion seems to be made in perfectly good faith, and the idea of changing images is hardly absurd (or fringe, widely rejected, etc. as are some swiftly closed discussions). Let's see if advocates come up with some new compelling argument for why the new image is much better. I doubt it, but I'm not opposed to hearing such an argument. LotLE× talk 21:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there any way, Bobblehead, that other editors can find out stuff like this call to the senate office, who "originally" removed the image, or any other information related to any of this?! Looking at it, the image has been at the commons since April 2008... it is, of course, conceivable that it had previously been deleted, but then restored by someone else. As I mentioned, I'm resistant to just assuming "everything is a violation" given my previous failed attempts to release self-created PD images to WP because of overzealous deletionists. LotLE× talk 22:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article claims that Stanley Ann was "from" Wichita which I presume means born there, but not necessarily. However that sentence is only cited to an article which posts his birth certificate. Although the birth certificate states his mother's name it does not state where she was from. We need a good citation for where she was from or born. Wjhonson ( talk) 19:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Does not need to be divided. That's what the Positions article is for. Grsz Review! 05:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
New book "Obama - Yes We Can Hope" gives extensive new family background for Obama's family including many leaders part of that family ... including early USA leaders ... add as new external link [ http://www.amazon.com/Obama-Yes-We-Can-Hope/dp/0595533841/ref=sr_1_2? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224627239&sr=1-2 Obama Extended Family] 76.192.0.146 ( talk) 06:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.0.146 ( talk) 06:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The reference for his place of birth; ^ "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13 leads to his own campaign website. Is it ok if I reference the Berg v. Obama case as well? http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/1/ & http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/18/0.pdf
Also, Was Obama born in Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, or Coast Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya?
Kingphilip2 ( talk) 19:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the lawsuit filed against Barack Obama by Philip J. Berg which he alleges that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible to run for President? This sounds like a very serious and important lawsuit to not be mentioned on Wikipedia. It also alleges that there is no records of Barack being born in Hawaii, and that his own family admits he was born outside the USA rendering him a non-US born citizen, incapable of U.S presidency. 71.112.196.141 ( talk) 01:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
As a test, I just typed in "Hussein Obama" and it came here. This should be changed to "file not found" page or something. Whomever made this redirect is just trying to do a political GOP hit job on Senator Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 ( talk) 00:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This isn't going anywhere productive. The issue was addressed. Grsz Review! 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: A request of deletion discussion was made a few months ago, archived here, regarding this redirect. The result of that debate was Redirect to Barack Obama. Therefore, if you want it deleted, you need to post another request on WP:RFD. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I know they are irrelevant, but if you wish to see some of the nonsense that the rightwingers are spewing out, have a look at Conservapadia.com's article on Obama. It's quite amusing. Also, should you feel inclined to write on their page, remember, ad hominem is all that matters to those people (evidentially). Aaberg ( talk) 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The guy is everywhere. -- Suntag ☼ 20:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
You know I've got a style question. Does it look to you like there seems to be an over abundance of inter-wikilinks within the article? It seems as if people have gone link happy and linked every word that might be misunderstood. Do you think that maybe we could go through and clean out some of the wikilinks that are unnecessary (I.E. easily understood?) Brothejr ( talk) 00:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
← You betcha. Tvoz/ talk 07:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Usually when a son has his father's name, the son's name ends with Jr. not II. as Barack's father was also named Barack Hussein Obama, and he has no other siblings named Barack Hussein Obama, and he's not named after an ancestor other than his father. the term appended to his name should be Jr. not II.
From: http://genealogy.about.com/b/2006/06/19/jr-or-ii.htm
"In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrVonMalfoy ( talk • contribs) 04:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
What does snag even mean? Grsz Review! 03:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Closing as usual. See FAQ, see incredible amounts of talk page history, blah blah blah. Let us know when a preponderance of reliable sources mention Ayers without a) debunking the "controversy" or b) simply reporting on the existence of the campaign talking point. Also be sure to let us know when the campaign talking point has a significant impact on Obama's life, because according to the available reliable sources, Ayers himself never did. -- Good Damon 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC) How can you possibly not mention this controversy? The man's name never even appears in this article. While it's only now getting heavy attention, it's been a simmering issue for over six months. Obama's positions on both are at the far left end of the spectrum, along with many of his other positions. Why are these not given any attention? On gun control, Obama has voted against the right of self-defense, as well as in favor of numerous extreme measures restricting ownership, sale, and purchase. On abortion, Obama has voted in favor of multiple fringe positions such as allowing the direct termination of live-born abortions and up-to-full-term abortion. So much for balanced, unbiased attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.219.28 ( talk)
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What I think the common complaint is about the Ayers controversy article is that it is practically orphaned. The only mainspace article in which a link to it can be found is Bill Ayers; there are no links from Barack Obama articles or 2008 Election articles which lead there. To clarify, I certainly don't think the controversy deserves mention in Obama's biography, any more than the cost of Palin's wardrobe would belong on her own page, but there should probably be a subarticle or template to which this article is linked. Any thoughts? » S0CO( talk| contribs) 06:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | → | Archive 45 |
"After announcing his presidential campaign in February 2007, Obama emphasized withdrawing American troops from Iraq, energy independence, decreasing the influence of lobbyists, and promoting universal health care as top national priorities."
None of the other 3 candidates have a section which describes their campaign goals, So I have a few questions: 1. Is this type of language appropriate for Obama? 2. Would a sentence like this be appropriate for each of the other candidates? If not, why? LedRush ( talk) 15:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
GoodDamon, thank you for providing the link. This was pretty much exactly what I was expecting. When you read the list, it is mainly non-binding resolutions commending worthy individuals or offering emotional support to medical research efforts. The article claims that two of Obama's bills have become law. It is an interesting claim but not one I was able to confirm. The link did not support the claim. Can you do any better? RonCram ( talk) 19:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) If people want to know which Obama sponsored bills became law, go search for it. However, those two pieces of legislation are not necessarily more important to Obama than any of the bills he's sponsored. If he says that something is his priority, and he's sponsored bills to that end, regardless of whether or not Congress passed them, I think that deserves to be mentioned in the article. But if he doesn't indicate that the laws he sponsored were his priority, why would they meet the weight requirement in the article over his actual statements? LedRush ( talk) 15:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain why I can't say he graduated without honors at Columbia but this article can talk about graduating Magna Cum Laude at Harvard? Why can't I add it? No reason was given for its deletion. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 03:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
---Ah I've been reverted again! Can I do nothing right?---
I thought it would be interesting to add the fact that Obama attended the Million Man March. I remember it at the time, and it was a pretty big deal back then and at least as important as "Project Vote." Can someone please explain how such information was considered "vandalism?" I do not understand why it is not allowed in this place that loves free thought and information. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 03:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) The New Yorker has some very good examples of journalism in it. Haven't you read it? TheGoodLocust ( talk) 04:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
---Lo! My edit is gone! Curse these hands of mine!---
I guess the fact that Blair Hull's divorce records were unsealed, which destroyed Barack's democratic frontrunner-rival and paved the way for Barack to enter the US Senate is "too much detail." And yet, I guess when his republican rival's divorce records are unsealed, in that same race, that is just the right amount of detail to make it into the article. It must be like the Three Bears and their porridge. In retrospect, I can see how silly it was of me to try and include how Barack came to power in the Senate - it really is a trivial matter. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 05:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is supposed to be a summary of the article. However, when I go to the section on his Senate career, this is not mentioned. Why is it in the summary but not the actual article? Even if it was in the article, I'm not sure what makes it notable enough to include in the summary. What is the purpose of this sentence other than an attempt to bolster his foreign policy experience? 67.184.14.87 ( talk) 17:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
A number of Obama controversies have been kept out of the article by claims that there is no WP:RS. This claim is not true. Determining where these reports fit in the article would be the next order of business. But for now we need to discuss if there is some other reason to keep these out of the article. Here they are along with a RS.
"Another strong supporter of Obama's work--as an organizer, as a lawyer, and now as a candidate--is Madeline Talbott, lead organizer of the feisty ACORN community organization, a group that's a thorn in the side of most elected officials. "I can't repeat what most ACORN members think and say about politicians. But Barack has proven himself among our members. He is committed to organizing, to building a democracy. Above all else, he is a good listener, and we accept and respect him as a kindred spirit, a fellow organizer."
Obama continues his organizing work largely through classes for future leaders identified by ACORN and the Centers for New Horizons on the south side. Conducting a session in a New Horizons classroom, Obama, tall and thin, looks very much like an Ivy League graduate student. Dressed casually prep, his tie loosened and his top shirt button unfastened, he leads eight black women from the Grand Boulevard community through a discussion of "what folks should know" about who in Chicago has power and why they have it. It's one of his favorite topics, and the class bubbles with suggestions about how "they" got to be high and mighty."
Sounds to me like he is teaching ACORN leaders. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 05:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Please do not insert, or repeatedly propose, fringe material for this article. Among the subjects that will not make it into the article are speculation that Obama is Muslim, not born in the US, ineligible for President, has a forged birth certificate, is not African-American, or is Arab. This entire discussion is borderline disruptive for promoting this stuff. Pushing this material after you have been cautioned to avoid it is likely to get you blocked or banned from editing Obama-related material due to disruption. Further, although not quite fringe, editors here have repeatedly rejected detailed coverage of partisan criticism like the accusations against CAC, or playing up Obama's association with various controversial groups (or the controveries about those groups). If you are going to propose it, please be orderly, respectful, start on the talk page rather than the article, and graceful enough to accept it if it is clear there is no consensus to add disputed material. Starting out a proposal by accusing editors of partisanship or bias is not a good way to earn consensus, and by the terms of article probation this page is for proposing article content, not complaining about other editors. Thanks, Wikidemon ( talk) 05:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with what Wikidemon said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfno7 ( talk • contribs)
This link from the Honolulu star says Barack was born in the Kapiolani medical center, while this link, used elsewhere in wikipedia, says he was born in the Queen's medical center. Can someone help me find out which hospital he was born in? I've confirmed through google maps that these are indeed two different places. Thanks in advance. TheGoodLocust ( talk) 20:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I beleive that this article is begining to show a slightliberal bias. Please fix this soon. This is exactly the bias that Wikipedia is so often accused of having. We need to hold the same standards that any other refrence holds, even is this is a community project. 71.186.32.139 ( talk) 00:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who believes that Wikipedia has a liberal bias has not been following Talk:Sarah Palin. Tvoz/ talk 23:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I have seen that some attempts to have references added to the "Family and personal life" section regarding Obama's admitting to "Bumming" cigarettes have been prevented. Personally I am not wholly convinced that the issue of whether or not he smokes is very note worthy in the first place, of course if his attempt is in fact "Highly publicized" as stated in the article I am more than willing to accept it. However if it is noteworthy than whether or not he has been successful seems to me to be equally as noteworthy. Also the fact that Obama himself openly and honestly stated he had bummed cigarettes during an interview with an established health magazine (Men's Health), and that has been quoted by many other online news outlets seems to indicated that reliable sources are readily available.
I am bringing this up here before making any edits because this is obviously an article that should not be edited lightly, and one in which edit wars and such are quite likely. Therefore I would like to get a feeling as to why these references have been removed before taking any action. So if anyone has opinions on this please let me know so we can achieve some level of consensus before adding, or deciding not to add the references. Thanks,(Edited to add signature) Colincbn ( talk) 10:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
(I feel like Johnny Five) As I stated above I think the small bit on Obama's quitting smoking is not patrticularly notible in the first place and does not add much, if anything, to the article. However if we are going to mention it, especially in regards to "The stresses of the campaign", then I think fully covering the situation on the campaign trail with all information available from citable reliable sources should be included. So far one editor has graciously given his/her opinon on the matter (please see above) and I would like more people to chime-in. Thanks, Colincbn ( talk) 05:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed (and removed) a digression into Jack Ryan's marriage/divorce that had been added to the article some time recently. Unfortunately, it appears to have been added more than a week ago, but I didn't notice at the time. This was all discussed and taken out because it's irrelevant months ago.
Two things: Does anyone know who added this silliness back in? Second, please keep an eye to make sure it doesn't come back. This is an article on Obama, not on Ryan. Stating his initial opponent in the Senate race is fine, but beyond Ryan's withdrawal from the race, his biography is irrelevant to Obama's biography (I'm sure it belongs in Ryan's bio, but that's a different article). LotLE× talk 21:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I dug it up: [10]. What were you thinking, Bobblehead?! Not a good thing to add back this irrelevant nonsense (I didn't expect it from such an otherwise excellent and productive editor here). LotLE× talk 21:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I also SUPPORT the inclusion of this information in the article. Maybe someone should be bold and add it? Digital Ninja 21:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
No. It's only peripherally related to Obama, and there's zero evidence Obama himself was in any way associated with it. It should stay gone. -- Good Damon 21:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
As may have become obvious, I no longer have a tolerance for the refusal of any editor to accept that opinion blogs and editorials are not reliable sources and cannot be used in a BLP to support statements of fact, whether it is Obama's or John McCain's. It is disruptive to continuously bring them back up, or bring up new ones, or complain here because of the wording of WP:RS and WP:BLP, and frustrating for other editors when they have to repeat themselves. Therefore, I make the following proposal:
At this point, I don't think there's any other way. It's time for this to stop.
GoodDamon, question about your proposal: why RSN and not ANI or ARV? My perception is that continued claims of birth certificate/citizenship issues, muslim canards, etc. when there is reliably sourced stuff in the article and pages and pages of archived discussions on each of these topics in the archives is WP:Disruptive editing. I also think your idea above should apply to this talkpage per WP:BLP as "poorly sourced contentious materials" -- guyzero | talk 22:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
So I'm seeing all support, and no objections. I'll go ahead and reorganize the FAQ into logical groups and add this to it. The FAQ is getting kind of big, so any assistance in trimming/consolidating would be appreciated. -- Good Damon 18:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is supposed to be a summary of the article. However, when I go to the section on his Senate career, it's hardly even mentioned. I do not understand why this is notable enough to be in the summary when the article itself hardly discusses it. When I read the summary, the impression I get is that this is an attempt to bolster his foreign policy experience. Can anyone explain why this is notable enough to be in the summary but not notable enough to be discussed at any length in the article itself? 12.10.248.51 ( talk) 12:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with either solution. We should decide how much weight those trips abroad carry for the BLP and either expand on them a little in the body, or remove them from the lead. -- Good Damon 14:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
In the opening of the article Obama is called a junior United States Senator. I was wondering if anyone had a reliable definition of "Junior Senator". Also I'm just going to capitalize "Junior" in the article for the time being, based on the fact that it is part of his proper title, and should be capatalized. Spartan123209 ( talk) 22:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Archiving as unlikely to achieve changes to the article. -- Good Damon 02:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe (obviously as well as other people as seen here) and other references, that this article in not presented in a neutral fashion. Especially in light of the upcoming election, this article seems to be maintained and monitored by a group of liberal editors protecting the article and it's subject from any negative light, regardless of WP:RS WP:SOURCE WP:WEIGHT, often hiding behind those policies by the letter instead of the spirit.
It is also my understanding that when a significant number of editors feels the neutrality of the article is unbalanced, that the neutrality tag is added. We need to have a discussion regarding this matter, which I'll start.
(undent) If I spend the amount of time I plan to gathering and organizing a proposal for this information and it's completely ignored (e.g. discussion prematurely closed) I'll seek enough established editors to weigh in on a neutrality tag. It's dreadfully apparent this article has some serious problems IMO. Digital Ninja 22:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's first establish why you even think this article is "non-neutral". Because there's no mention of the controversy that people claim he may be a "secret Muslim"? Or is it because it doesn't discuss the off-the-wall belief that he wasn't born in the United States? Because if those are the reasons, you're going to have to make a hell of an argument as to why they deserve any mention in this article. Grsz X 22:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you really want to put in every piece of gossip that floats around about a politician? Obama didn't do anything illegal, he wasn't remotely involved in any of the respective controversies (Ayers setting bombs, ACORN allegedly turning in fraudulent voter registrations), and these 'connections' are only ever discussed as some sort of vague question of his judgment. It simply isn't significant. Stop calling it an appalling view point and say why it is significant. Why? What did Obama and Ayers do together that matters beyond a talking point during an election? What did Obama do for ACORN that matters beyond gossip or blog fodder? Watergate was a scandal. Whitewater was a scandal. Monica Lewinski was a scandal. Swiftboat Vetrans for Truth was a personal attack that became a significant part of John Kerry's life story. Ayers and ACORN is...nothing. I'm sorry, but unless someone is making a documentary about the Weathermen Bill Ayers isn't an important figure anymore. He's a slight figure in public education issues in Chicago, but certainly not worth mentioning in someone's bio with nothing more than the two knew each other. I mean what you're wanting is for an article to be like seven degrees with Kevin Bacon. So and so knew so and so and worked with so and so and at one time had dinner with so and so. ACORN is the really laughable news story because he represented them once in a case. That's really it. There's no story. None of it is relevant or significant beyond pundit conjecture and tabloid journalism. Just answer me this without calling me or my opinions appalling or saying I'm being partisan or stupid or whatever, in the grand scheme of his life, not just the election but Obama's overall life, what significance does Ayers or ACORN really have?
Is it just a frivolous character attack that is forgotten the second an election is over or is there something of more significance? If you have something that is more significant, then by all means, but you have yet to articulate anything of credible importance. Rezko I could almost see. There's at least the possibility of unethical behavior there. Ayers and ACORN are both non stories. Leave the whole 'the American people have a right to know' nonsense concerning commonplace character attacks to pundits and blogs. It isn't necessary for inclusion here, it doesn't fit this page's purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
If I could just weigh in here regarding the Ayers issue as an editor who doesn't edit this page. If we do mention him sitting on the board, we must mention every person who sat on the board and focus only on the board and not Ayers. Wikipedia isn't a place to continue attacks of a presidential campaign regardless of whether they are true or not (the McCain campaign and Obama campaign are not reliable secondary sources). But we'd need reliable sources to state that Obama sitting on this board is relevant to his biography. It could be, I don't really know enough to know for sure. WP:RECENT is somewhat being violated here given the 'issue' about Obama serving on the same board as Ayers was only brought up for the first time several months ago (nationally, at least) despite it happening over a decade ago. NcSchu( Talk) 20:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Last time a presidential candidate purchased airtime similar to this was in 1992 by Ross Perot(a third party candidate). If anyone wants to expand on this topic or discuss what precedence this might set for future elections?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-worldseries-obama&prov=ap&type=lgns]
Nixon did in 1952 when he was running as Vice President with Eisenhower to defend "Checkers". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.164.115.210 ( talk) 03:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(Closing as disruptive per the FAQ. Don't like it? I'll be happy to take this "source" to WP:RSN per the FAQ, where it will be utterly demolished, you will be warned to stop, and administrators will agree with my decision. Or... You could just stop doing this, and focus on finding reliably sourced information from now on.) -- Good Damon 16:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
In a webcast titled "B-Cast: Is Obama Being Truthful About His Involvement With ACORN?" internet news reporters Liz Stephans and Scott Baker check the factual accuracy of Obama's statements in the final debate. They show a clip from FOX News and also look at original documents and point out errors on www.fightthesmears.com. The article in its current state misleads readers into thinking there are no controversies around Obama's statements about his associations. This needs to be corrected because the article does not conform to Wikipedia's NPOV standard. RonCram ( talk) 14:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to remind editors of the following guidelines:-
Following these should help to ensure that discussions here stay brief, to the point, and productive. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 16:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Though his baptism is taken for granted by the average reader, there are many who are not sure what his religious beliefs are. For their sake it is necessary to specifically state he was baptized into the Trinity United Church of Christ. So I have added the reference to his baptism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SahirShah ( talk • contribs) 12:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
This is going on, and two (possible) sources claim that Barack Obama is connected to ACORN and that org is involved in a voter related scandal. See the ACORN talk page.
Obama began seeking the New Party endorsement in 1995. He had been running in a four way primary against his former boss, Senator Alice Palmer, herself a far left radical, and two other individuals. But an election law quirk gave Obama the upper hand. In order to get on the ballot, candidates had to collect signatures of voters. Printed names were not allowed. Obama challenged the petitions of his rivals and was able to get every one of them thrown off the ballot. By the time the ballot was drawn up for the 1996 election, Obama’s was the only name in the race.
Nonetheless, Obama still coveted the New Party endorsement. The New Party required candidates who received the endorsement sign a pledge of support for the party. Obama did not need to support a party that was, in effect, a front group for communists; yet he still chose to. The July issue of the New Ground noted that 15% of the New Party consisted of Democratic Socialists of America members and a good number of Committee of Correspondence members.
Barack Obama, not needing to, chose to affiliate himself with this band of quasi-communists. As the nation moves closer to the election, it is clear that Obama chose to affiliate with assorted anti-American radicals. Machiavelli once noted that we can know a leader by the people he surrounds himself with. What does that say about Barack Obama, who chose to surround himself with people committed to overthrowing the United States and capitalism?
---I am curious - why is Mr. Obama's signature a part of this page?--- 4.242.174.169 ( talk) 06:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
A few users have been spouting the "Obama's an Arab" thing, which is even more ludicrous than the Muslim thing. I noticed it's not explicitly mentioned in the FAQ, probably could be. -- Jaysweet ( talk) 18:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC) starting to feel a little guilty about it... --19:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
There was a recent change to the section, an addition by Ferrylodge of a short paragraph that said "He's sometimes perceived as elitist, but points out he grew up poor and worked hard." It was worded better than my paraphrase, and I have no objection to it (nor any strong advocacy for it... it was removed by another editor).
However, reading the section with somewhat fresh eyes, I feel like everything in it is more-or-less completely arbitrary and capricious. Dickerson makes a moderately interesting comment, but without any evidence it is of particularly great significance to overall "image" of the bio subject. Noonan likewise makes a comment, likewise interesting but of no indicated significance. The Ferrylodge paragraph (whether finally kept or skipped) has the exact same satus: true enough as far as citations go, interesting enough, and no evidence of broader biographical significance.
I'm puzzled by what to do with the section. I think it's slightly relevant to have such a section at all, but nothing inside it stands out as actually worth keeping. Quite apart from likely edit conflict, I'm ambivalent about taking a hatchet to the whole thing. On the other hand, I really don't like devoting paragraphs to "Some random pundit wrote <blah>".
Ideas? LotLE× talk 17:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like this is gaining traction - seems relevant to this article [12] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 01:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
What about this [13]? 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 00:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Rule of thumb: If the source is any of the following:
...then it's only a reliable source for its owner/author's opinion, not for statements of fact. -- Good Damon 00:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
ok, here's the WSJ [14] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 15:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Here's some more information - it alleges that Obama campaign and ACORN are working together to steal the vote in Ohio. [15] 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 22:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC) is
(change) I have attempted to change Senator Obama's photo on his page to another which is in the Commons and is at the very least a more interesting portrait than the ubiquitous "security" photo that has resided there for some time. What is the beef with changing the photo? Prosediva ( talk) 04:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify discussion: let's include the images. Just so the new editors understand, we need consensus to change the current image. It doesn't really look like the suggestion is even running a majority, but consensus is a higher bar (it doesn't mean any precise percentage, but 80% is sometimes taken as a proxy number where the possibilities for discussion are somewhat limited, as here). LotLE× talk 17:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Bobblehead's copyright claim contradicts the information given on the "Obama by Capital" image. The image page itself states that the image is a government-created public domain work. I do not have any knowledge of the true copyright status beyond that claim... however, I do not think there is any harm in leaving the image on the talk page for a short while until or unless it is actually deleted from the commons as copyrighted. As I've stated, I do not myself support using the newly proposed image. But the suggestion seems to be made in perfectly good faith, and the idea of changing images is hardly absurd (or fringe, widely rejected, etc. as are some swiftly closed discussions). Let's see if advocates come up with some new compelling argument for why the new image is much better. I doubt it, but I'm not opposed to hearing such an argument. LotLE× talk 21:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there any way, Bobblehead, that other editors can find out stuff like this call to the senate office, who "originally" removed the image, or any other information related to any of this?! Looking at it, the image has been at the commons since April 2008... it is, of course, conceivable that it had previously been deleted, but then restored by someone else. As I mentioned, I'm resistant to just assuming "everything is a violation" given my previous failed attempts to release self-created PD images to WP because of overzealous deletionists. LotLE× talk 22:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article claims that Stanley Ann was "from" Wichita which I presume means born there, but not necessarily. However that sentence is only cited to an article which posts his birth certificate. Although the birth certificate states his mother's name it does not state where she was from. We need a good citation for where she was from or born. Wjhonson ( talk) 19:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Does not need to be divided. That's what the Positions article is for. Grsz Review! 05:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
New book "Obama - Yes We Can Hope" gives extensive new family background for Obama's family including many leaders part of that family ... including early USA leaders ... add as new external link [ http://www.amazon.com/Obama-Yes-We-Can-Hope/dp/0595533841/ref=sr_1_2? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224627239&sr=1-2 Obama Extended Family] 76.192.0.146 ( talk) 06:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.0.146 ( talk) 06:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The reference for his place of birth; ^ "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13 leads to his own campaign website. Is it ok if I reference the Berg v. Obama case as well? http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/1/ & http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/18/0.pdf
Also, Was Obama born in Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, or Coast Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya?
Kingphilip2 ( talk) 19:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the lawsuit filed against Barack Obama by Philip J. Berg which he alleges that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible to run for President? This sounds like a very serious and important lawsuit to not be mentioned on Wikipedia. It also alleges that there is no records of Barack being born in Hawaii, and that his own family admits he was born outside the USA rendering him a non-US born citizen, incapable of U.S presidency. 71.112.196.141 ( talk) 01:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
As a test, I just typed in "Hussein Obama" and it came here. This should be changed to "file not found" page or something. Whomever made this redirect is just trying to do a political GOP hit job on Senator Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 ( talk) 00:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This isn't going anywhere productive. The issue was addressed. Grsz Review! 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: A request of deletion discussion was made a few months ago, archived here, regarding this redirect. The result of that debate was Redirect to Barack Obama. Therefore, if you want it deleted, you need to post another request on WP:RFD. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I know they are irrelevant, but if you wish to see some of the nonsense that the rightwingers are spewing out, have a look at Conservapadia.com's article on Obama. It's quite amusing. Also, should you feel inclined to write on their page, remember, ad hominem is all that matters to those people (evidentially). Aaberg ( talk) 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The guy is everywhere. -- Suntag ☼ 20:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
You know I've got a style question. Does it look to you like there seems to be an over abundance of inter-wikilinks within the article? It seems as if people have gone link happy and linked every word that might be misunderstood. Do you think that maybe we could go through and clean out some of the wikilinks that are unnecessary (I.E. easily understood?) Brothejr ( talk) 00:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
← You betcha. Tvoz/ talk 07:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Usually when a son has his father's name, the son's name ends with Jr. not II. as Barack's father was also named Barack Hussein Obama, and he has no other siblings named Barack Hussein Obama, and he's not named after an ancestor other than his father. the term appended to his name should be Jr. not II.
From: http://genealogy.about.com/b/2006/06/19/jr-or-ii.htm
"In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrVonMalfoy ( talk • contribs) 04:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
What does snag even mean? Grsz Review! 03:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Closing as usual. See FAQ, see incredible amounts of talk page history, blah blah blah. Let us know when a preponderance of reliable sources mention Ayers without a) debunking the "controversy" or b) simply reporting on the existence of the campaign talking point. Also be sure to let us know when the campaign talking point has a significant impact on Obama's life, because according to the available reliable sources, Ayers himself never did. -- Good Damon 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC) How can you possibly not mention this controversy? The man's name never even appears in this article. While it's only now getting heavy attention, it's been a simmering issue for over six months. Obama's positions on both are at the far left end of the spectrum, along with many of his other positions. Why are these not given any attention? On gun control, Obama has voted against the right of self-defense, as well as in favor of numerous extreme measures restricting ownership, sale, and purchase. On abortion, Obama has voted in favor of multiple fringe positions such as allowing the direct termination of live-born abortions and up-to-full-term abortion. So much for balanced, unbiased attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.219.28 ( talk)
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What I think the common complaint is about the Ayers controversy article is that it is practically orphaned. The only mainspace article in which a link to it can be found is Bill Ayers; there are no links from Barack Obama articles or 2008 Election articles which lead there. To clarify, I certainly don't think the controversy deserves mention in Obama's biography, any more than the cost of Palin's wardrobe would belong on her own page, but there should probably be a subarticle or template to which this article is linked. Any thoughts? » S0CO( talk| contribs) 06:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)