This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I JUSTIFIED EVERY CHANGES WITH OVER 100 PAGES OF ANSWERS AT FADIX ANALYSIS SECTION ALONE, EXCLUDING THOSE IN THE ARCHIVES AND THE TALK PAGE. THERE IS NO PROPAGANDA OR POV IN WHAT I WROTE, IF THERE IS ANY POV SHOW ME WHERE. YOU CAN NOT JUST REVERT AN ARTICLE WITHOUT EVEN JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. MY ARTICLE IS SUPPORTED WITH WIKIPEDIA FRENCH ENTRY WHICH HAS BEEN MODERATED BY AN ADMINISTRATOR. I CAME HERE TO POST THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM ARMENIAN GENOCIDE BOOK LIST LINK, AND I REALISE THAT COOLCAT HAS EDITED AND REVERTED BACK THE GENOCIDE ENTRY, THE SAME THAT WANTED TO MODERATE THIS ENTRY. NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY HE WANT TO DO SO.
IT IS SAID THAT THERE SHOULD BE DISCUSSION BEFORE MAKING CHANGES, I ANSWERED AND JUSTIFIED WITH ABOUT 160 PAGES, I CAN CONFIRM EVERY CHANGES WITH REFERENCES AND LISTS OF OVER A HUNDRED WORK AND HUNDREDS OF ESSAYS... I HAVE READ WIKIEPDIA "NEUTRAL" INTERPRETATION, I HAVE USED UNIVERSALIS, THE LARGEST FRENCH ENCYCLOPEDIA "TONE" TO COVER THE GENOCIDE, AND HAVE VIEWED THE OTHER WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES.
GO MODERATE OTHER TURKISH BOARDS AND LEAVE US BREATH HERE, IF YOU ARE A GENOCIDE APPOLOGIST I DON'T GIVE A S.T, IF YOU'RE HERE TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE GO AHEAD. BBUUUUTTT STOP REVERTING BACK, WHEN MY EDITION WAS THE RESULT OF 160 PAGES LONG OF ANSWER. THIS IS DISRESPECTABLE.
I WILL REVERT IT BACK... AND DO IT UNTIL YOU STOP IT. WHAT IS THE FARCE WITH WIKIPEDIA, THERE IS ONE AZERIS FANATIC AT THE KARABAGH PAGE, JUMPING ON ME RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST ANSWER. IS THERE NO ONE MODERATING WIKIPEDIA????? -- Fadix
I will revert it back. What I present is NOT propaganda neither POV. So STOP IT!!! Fadix 20:44, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) So you mean everybody agrees there had been an armenian genocide and the Turkish Goverment and scholars agreed on the issue. Hence this is no longer a dispute? You mean that a considerable amount of scholars do not disagree with the claim? You present the Armenian POV I believe the Turkish claims were different judjing by the history. You cannot expect to toss away 160 pages worth of data and we mods to read it. you are obligated to explain wht you removed every paragraph ONE BY ONE. All changes one by one. I am getting assistance for this matter with fellow admins. Like it or not this article is full of POV. The sources you provide are still the Armanian POV and Armanian statistics. The documents, as far as anyone is concerned could have been forged. You are not following the NPOV article att all. You are making claims while deleting the oposing views completely as if no one oposes the dispute. You even removed the warning. This is at best Armanian propoganda. I dont like revert wars, as those mods act like infants. Since you will not even listen to my arguments, I have nothing to say to you for now. This article is based on either your or somebodyelses POV. Definately not NPOV. You can fool yourself as much as you like. I can toss you lots of juice I dont know 500 pages if I feel like rambling on and on... This article itself is a POV -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
By the way thank you for your report regarding the NPOV policy violations on diferent languages of wikipedia, I'll see into it when I have time. I am more concerned with my calculus exam at the moment. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:49, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is not because few disagree about something that it means there is a dispute. Again, the majority in Islamic countries deny the Shoah did happen, still I don't see any note about disputes on its entry. And no, there are no considerable amount of scholars who deny the Armenian genocide. Take off Turkish diplomatic works(Gurun, Ataov etc...) and those working in Ottoman departments founded and funded by Turkey(its like using the words of an Armenologist), there is not much any scholars that deny it did happen. There is a clear disproportion between those recognizing it and those denying it. Even though the Ottoman Empire was an Islamic regime, outside of Turkey, there is more Muslim denying the Shoah than the Armenian genocide.
Beside that, I do see here that you have a star, I don't know how people are nominated, but I think that by using such terms as “Armenian propaganda” is very disrespect able from your part. I don't see how going after all of the entries remotely implicating Turkey and throwing your biases in them you are really contributing here. And the 160 pages were not just toss away, they were answers to Torque posts, they are part of the discussion and not only a load of data.
Another note, there is no such warning in the other language entries, the German and French take my position, and from what I understood of Spanish, as well....
There are changes I may do in the article I posted(like providing the sources for the statistics), and I am ready that people contribute in it, but I expect people to support their changes as I have done here... and as well, it is logical that as much place it should be given as there are specialists supporting the claims.
Here is why I removed them.--Fadix
The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportation and murder of Armenians by the Young Turks government in 1915- 1916.
The Armenian Genocide is not agreed to by everyone; the term "genocide" generally defines a state-sponsored extermination plan but it is the position of Turkey and some academics that the majority of losses were a result of clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans. Armenians and other academics state at least 1.5 million Armenians perished in Turkey. France is among the countries which have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide..
One of the prime sources of information regarding the Armenian Genocide was Henry Morgenthau, U.S. Ambassador to Turkey from 1913-1916. Ambassador Morgenthau published a book in 1919 entitled Ambassador Morgenthau's Story which details the atrocities committed against the Armenians by the Turks. Others state that Morgenthau was not a neutral observer, anxious to get the United States into war, and primed by Armenian assistants; frequently cited as an "eyewitness", having "never left Istanbul", and revealing his bias with statements describing the Turks as "inarticulate, ignorant, and poverty-ridden slaves", "barbarous", "brutal", "ragged and unkempt", (within his book) and as having "inferior blood".
In 1890 there were possibly around 1.3 to 1.7 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, of whom the vast majority were of the Armenian Orthodox or Roman Catholic Christian faith. Until late 19th century, the Armenians were called "millet-i sadika" (fidel nation) by the Ottomans, as they were living in harmony with the Muslim Kurds and Turks in Eastern Anatolia, without any major conflict with the central authority despite religious and ethnic differences, and despite second class citizen status on the law books and in practice as "infidels". While the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia was large and clustered, there was also a considerably large community of Armenians on the west, mostly living in the capital city of Istanbul, of which a substantial community remains to this day, as it was the communities in Anatolia proper that were subjected to the deportation orders and massacres .
On August 26, 1896, a group of Armenian revolutionaries raided the headquarters of the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul after having shot the guards and seized more than 140 staff members, in an attempt to gain international attention to the plight of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Mobs of Muslim Turks then massacred tens or hundreds of thousands of Armenians. It is alleged by some that 50,000 Armenians were killed, and that there was a level of Ottoman government involvement with the mobs.
Armenian-sympathizing estimates of the total killed run from 100,000 to 300,000; one of the greatest pro-Armenians, Johannes Lepsius, estimated less than 89,000. Turkish estimates run from 20,000 to 30,000. These events are recalled by the Armenians as the "Great Massacres" and believe the Hamidian measures verified the capacity of the Turkish state to carry out a systematic policy of murder and plunder against a minority population. The formation of Armenian revolutionary groups began roughly around the end of the Russo-Turkish War of 1878. As some diplomats observed, the aim of these groups were to commit massacres so as to incite counter-measures, and to invite "foreign powers to intervene," as Istanbul's British Ambassador Sir Philip Currie observed in March 1894.
Before World War I the Ottoman Empire came under the Young Turks government. At first some Armenian political organizations supported the Young Turks in hopes that there would be a real change from Abdul Hamid's policies towards the Armenian population. There were Armenians elected to the Ottoman Parliament, where some remained throughout the ensuing world war. However they were later to be disappointed. The Young Turks feared the Armenian community, which they had believed was more sympathetic to allied powers (specifically Russia) than to the Ottoman Empire.
In 1914 Ottomans passed a new law that required all adult males up to age 45, to either be recruited in the Ottoman army or pay special fees in order to be excluded from service. Most of the Armenian recruits were later turned into road laborers and some were executed.
On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government executed 300 Armenian intellectuals, although a partisan source as Peter Balakian's "The Burning Tigris" tells us most were imprisoned and there were even survivors.
The fact that most Armenian men were also butchered in the army and many influential figures arrested and killed, places a question mark over certain arguments that Armenians organized revolts and that there was a civil war, given that Armenians were outnumbered, outmanned and outgunned. On the other hand, there were articles in the New York Times as early as November 7, 1914, days after Russia had declared war, attesting to Armenian uprisings ("ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS -- Besieging Van—Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear"), and accounts from Armenians themselves,
such as Boghos Nubar's 1919 letter in the Times of London stressing Armenian belligerence. In addition, there is evidence of Russian financial support (242,900 rubles, according to the Dashnak Party Military Minister, Armenian National Congress meeting in Tbilisi, Feb. 1915),
testimony from even those such as Ambassador Henry Morgenthau to the effect of "...In the early part of 1915... every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense,"
and even accounts from Armenian newspapers hailing the rebellion.
Taking advantage of the wide-spread war, which left Eastern Anatolia defenseless, these armed Armenian "comita"s, organized and supported by Russia and Russian-Armenians, have massacred Turkish and Kurdish villagers throughout Eastern Anatolia.
Chronology here is important and not incontestably established. Regardless of the chronology above, when the deportation orders were issued to Armenian villagers across Anatolia, the vast majority obediently followed orders, even when near certain death was obvious.
After the recruitment of most men and the arrests of certain intellectuals, widespread massacres were taking place throughout Ottoman Empire. This should not be taken as the victims of these massacres were only the christian minorities, though. Starting with the spread of nationalism in early 1800's, for the sake of building purified nations, many turks (non-arabic muslims of Ottoman Empire) were exiled, deported and massacred by newly-independent Balkan nations such as Greece, Bulgaria and imperial Russia throughout the century. In desperate attempts at survival, upon hearing of massacres of nearby villages, Armenians in Musa Dagh and Van organized their self defense. In Van, they handed over control of the city to advancing Russians. The Ottoman government ordered the deportation of over 1 million Armenians living in Anatolia to Syria and Mesopotamia though this figure has not been conclusively established. Indeed, there is another consensus this number did not exceed 700,000,
and Arnold Toynbee reported in his Wellington House (British propaganda division) report of "The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" that 500,000 were alive in 1916.
Although the word deportation seems pretty innocent (some would prefer the word "relocation," as the former means banishment outside a country's borders; Japanese-Americans, for example, were not "deported" during WWII), things were not, because the deportations themselves were a silent method of mass execution that led to the death of many of the Armenian population, by forcing them to march endlessly through desert, without food or water or enough protection from local Kurdish or Turkish bandits.
In the process several hundred thousand died in the resulting death marches from starvation, dehydration, disease or exhaustion. Several hundred thousands more were massacred by Kurdish militia and Ottoman gendarmes, giving an estimated total under certain counts of 1,500,000 Armenians dead. Then again, the Armenians contend one million survived, and even the Patriarch Ormanian provided a pre-war population figure of 1,579,000.
Mr. Hovhannes Katchaznouni, first Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, describes this part of history as follows in his 1923 Manifesto: "At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and especially with much uproar... The Armenian Revolutionary Federation had active participation in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey... In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer band organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from fighting. This was an inevitable result of psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation; that mentality should have found its expression and did so....The Winter of 1914 and Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all Armenians in the Caucasus including of course the Dashnaktsutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered and its Armenian population would be liberated. We had embraced Russia wholeheartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. "
Statistics regarding the number of Armenians living in Ottoman Anatolia and the number killed are disputed. The lowest numbers are given by Turkish sources and the highest by Armenian sources.
In 1896 the Ottoman government recorded 1,144,000 Armenians living in Anatolia. Professor Justin McCarthy, U.S. historian and expert in Ottoman history, whose books are published by a Turkish organization as well as prestigious university presses such as the Oxford University Press, estimated that there were 1,500,000 Armenians in Anatolia in 1912. According to the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, there were between 1,845,000 and 2,100,000 Armenians in Anatolia in 1914. Estimates range from 1,000,000 given by some Turkish sources to more than 3,500,000 given by some Armenian sources. Arnold J. Toynbee, who served as an intelligence officer during World War I, estimates there were 1,800,000 Armenians living in Anatolia in 1914. Encyclopædia Britannica took 1,750,000 Armenians living in Anatolia as their estimate, in certain later editions. In 1911, the encyclopedia had figured 1.1 million, and Toynbee estimated less than one million in his 1915 book, "Nationalism and the War," before his services were enlisted in Wellington House.
Estimates for the numbers of Armenians who died during the Second Massacre vary even more. Some Turkish sources claim that 200,000 Armenians died, whereas some Armenian sources number the dead at well over 2,000,000. Talat Pasha, a prominent Young Turk and Grand Vizier from 1917-1918, claimed that the total was 300,000. Toynbee put the number at 600,000 in his 1916 "Treatment" propaganda report. McCarthy independently arrived at the same figure.
Armenians and others around the world recognize April 24 as marking the start of genocide at the hands of the Young Turks.
Some Turkish historians and foreign Ottoman history scholars deny that an event classifiable as state-organised genocide occurred, claiming a lack of evidence pointing Ottoman state involvement. Their claim is that the Armenian deaths resulted from armed conflict, civil war, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I, when Armenian citizens of Ottoman Empire joined Russian armies to invade eastern provinces of Ottoman Empire. In the same period, 2.5 million other Ottoman citizens have perished as a result of civil-war and disease.
This is a controversial topic and both the Turkish and the Armenian claims are posted below. If you want to add something please be neutral
The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the claim of the Armenian government and some scholars as deportation and murder of Armenians by the Young Turks government in 1915-1916. The claim is currently a dispute between Turkey and Armenia.
Scholars are divided between two general views, one general view is that there was a state-sponsored extermination plan, while the other general view losses were a result of clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans. The statistics regarding how many Armaniens perished varies and there are no official numbers.
The exact number of Armenians killed by the Ittihadist regime is still subject to further research. German and Austrian documents record the the total may be over a million. The official Ottoman records of 800,000 killed suggest as well that the total death toll reach in the million and over.
Sources for one point of view
“On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government executed hundreds Armenian intellectuals”
Several hundred thousands more had perrised. One point of view suggests Kurdish militia and Ottoman gendarmes were responsible while the other point of view siggests war, famine and other factors were responsible. The exact number of Armenians killed by the Ittihadist regime is still subject to further research. German and Austrian documents record the the total may be over a million. The official Ottoman records of fatlities stand at 800,000. Both parties dispute the statistics so the acatual number of fatalities could be much less or could be in the the million or more.
Now the mediator, like the ICTJ, no doubt has been exposed primarily to this propaganda, an "avalanche" of which is available in the West. I urge the mediator to read Gurun's book, and to look at this topic with an open mind. And I want to remind the mediator that Fadix has exposed himself to have Zero Credibility time and again. When one only presents an exclusive side, overlooking the rest, one's credibility dissipates.
One need look strictly at the Ottoman records to see how Armenians suffered immensely. There were many innocent Armenians among the 700,000 uprooted, and how awful it must have been to give up one's home and go to places unknown, under the command of those who didn't always have their best interest at heart. It's time the Armenians acknowledge the ones who put them in this harmful position were their fanatical leaders, when "Prudence was thrown to the winds," as K. S. Papazian wrote.
The whole idea behind genocide, notwithstanding silly definitions by the ICTJ where only one person needs to be killed, involves a systematic extermination plan, with the idea of killing off everyone. Were there Ottomans intending to exterminate the Armenians? The answer is: if the idea was to exterminate, a million couldn't have survived. But there were definitely those with murder on their minds.
But who were these Ottomans? They were NOT Talat, Enver, and Jemal. The real Ottoman orders safeguarded Armenian lives and property. In other words, there is no single shred of evidence tying in the central government to this great alleged crime.
This is why we must look at the BIG PICTURE. The Armenians rebelled. Posing too great a threat to the desperate nation engaged in a life or death struggle, they got relocated. Unfortunately, things went awry. There was a deep shortage of manpower and resources, and the huge task of transporting and relocating hundreds of thousands was compounded by locals who were corrupt, opportunistic and revengeful. (But what's forgotten are those who did their job properly; some gendarmes died defending Armenians from attack, and Morgenthau got direct word from an Armenian representative that 500,000 were carrying on well with their lives in September of 1915. Since he was another weasel, he didn't report this diary entry in his book.)
Let's compare with a recent operation conducted by the world's superpower, the USA. The USA didn't have any "time pressure" to war in Iraq, since Iraq wasn't threatening to invade America. The USA had all the time in the world to make sure everything went right. We are all aware how wrong things went. While there's a news block-out (a lesson learned from the Vietnam War), the public had a chance to see the agony inflicted upon Iraqi civilians through, for example, FAHRENHEIT 9/11. We are aware video game-playing or nervous American soldiers can be trigger-happy. We know, because of poor planning, cultural rape occurred when the Iraqi museum got looted. How do you think American soldiers would behave, let alone American civilians, if Ameria were on her knees with powers threatening every front, and a traitorous minority begins massacring fellow Americans, in exchange for promises of a new homeland? Don't you think at least some of them would avenge their massacred children and spouses?
The idea was to make sure the Armenians in each town composed no greater a number than 10%. This is why the fact that we are told the Armenians were marched off into the desert to die is another myth. The fact is, Armenians were dispersed within the Anatolian heartland, as well.... from Ankara to Konya, let's say. These are all in the Ottoman archives. Downright stupid decisions were made when villages Armenians were dispersed to were Kurdish villages. That was the end of these Armenians. Were they purposely sent to these villages because of "extermination" goals? That's a matter of speculation. Perhaps the official thought "we were all Ottomans," and nothing would happen to those Armenians.
There are even genuine telegrams indicating Talat Pasha was aware soldiers killed Armenians. The question: did these soldiers get orders from the top?
Let's go back to Iraq. Not long ago, an American soldier was sentenced to 12 or 15 years for tortures committed at the Abu Gharib prison. (Let's bear in mind Ottomans were tried and punished DURING the war for crimes against Armenians, some to the extent of execution.) The American said he was following orders. Of course; some local commander gave this soldier the thumbs up. But did these orders extend up to President Bush, the counterpart of "Talat Pasha"? (We don't know, because there's no proof. We can't blame Bush for deliberately giving such orders. Unless the evidence surfaces, or unless an Andonian comes up with forgeries.)
We know there were many more soldiers involved in Iraqi war crimes than the handful charged/tried, but only these few were scapegoated. Why? Because if there's a full-scale effort to find and punish every guilty party, morale on the home front would plunge. Compound that in a situation where a nation is battling for her very life. The fact that any Ottomans were punished at all, given their desperate situation, says a lot.
An important document bearing witness to "no genocide" is one written by Enver to Talat on May 2, 1915. This was after the last of the Van rebellions (until that time) and rebellions in other cities, followed by the April 24 order to arrest Armenian ringleaders. (All murdered on the same day, according to most Armenian propagandistic sources.) Enver notes the Armenian insurrection in Van, and the Russians' traditional method of expulsion of Muslims from lands they had conquered. (He writes, "Muslims within their borders," actually. So perhaps these were their own Muslims kicked out, to further strain the limited resources of the Ottomans who had to take care of them, and to use the war opportunity to get rid of an unreliable Muslim population. This expulsion took place on April 20.)
"In order to respond to this, as well as to reach the goal (of destroying the rebellion's nest)..., it is necessary to either send these Armenians and their families to Russia, or to disperse them within Anatolia. I request that the most suitable of these two alternatives be chosen and carried out. If there is no inconvenience I would prefer that the families of the rebels and the population of the region in rebellion are sent outside our borders and that the Muslim community brought into our borders from abroad are relocated to their place."
Enver opted for expulsing his country's traitorous Christians, just like Russia had been doing with her innocent Muslims. Sounds fair, doesn't it?
Note there is no thought of extermination, because of pan-Turanism, or because Muslims hate Christians, or the other phony reasons Armenian propaganda tells us served as the motive for genocide. Just boot them into the hands of their precious Russians! Why spend the milliions of dollars to relocate, and why divert precious resources and manpower on a relocating attempt within their own country?
Ironically (given the "genocide" charge), the Ottoman government chose the more HUMANITARIAN route. Yes, things went wrong. But the intentions were good.
I would like to request, regardless of how the article is finally presented, to remove the word "genocide" from the title. Another partisan had started a page at Wikipedia, pointing to the equally phony Pontus Greek "genocide" as the "Greek Holocausf" at Wikipedia. This name was justly changed. Similarly, we should only hold truth as our parameter, within this page.
And please keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. Not the dizzying array of confusing weasel facts Fadix is sure to present from his propaganda "avalanche," all amounting to "Joe said..." Honorable people don't resort to hearsay in the charge of a crime, particularly this great crime. When the British turned honorable, they ignored all the "avalanche" of hearsay and forgeries, and freed all the Turks at Malta because there was simply no reliable evidence to be found.
Raffi may be excused somewhat for perpetuating his propaganda, because he has only studied one side of his story, and has a "religious" bent. I don't know how Fadix can live with himself, as he has scrutinized this historic episode inside out. He is determined to support his agenda, regardless of the genuine facts. This is why Fadix, the Super Armenian Weasel Beast, has ZERO CREDIBILITY.-- Torque March 1, 2005
What the heck is this? What gives any editor the right to pre-judge what other editors do on a page? Rick K 06:35, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
Let answer Mr. Torque yet again.
Raffi proudly exclaimed that he knows this subject "VERY well," yet it has become apparent he doesn't know that much at all... especially if he makes comments not steeped in reality, such as there was no Armenian rebellion.
Like 99% of Armenians, he is only content in studying what his deceptive Armenian professors and the hypocritical genocide scholars tell him... of which there is an "avalanche" of propagandistic information out there, since the Turks are not a "speak up" kind of people traditionally, and current ones don't have the motivation to bone up on this topic. (Even if they do, this one-sided "avalanche" is so firmly entrenched in the West, they would not be playing on an equal playing field.)
Raffi has admitted he hasn't read Sam Weems' "Armenia," even though he has felt free to knock it down, and I have no doubt he has also not come near Gurun's "The Armenian File - The Myth of Innocence Exposed," even though he knocked that one down as well. This is the job of Armenians: to knock down anything that debunks their big genocidal con job, regardless of the source, and of the truth.
Raffi has demonstrated he has an aversion to truth. One example was his referring to me as a "pro-Turkish govt positionee," even though he has no idea of who I am. But a perfect example of how the Armenian strategy works is to overlook the forest, and single out the sole tree that supports their genocide. Raffi did this with our ICTJ exchange. Once again, the ICTJ is a body of lawyers (not historians) who decreed the Armenians' experience was a genocide... and the Armenians must latch on to this, as they have no other judicial proof.
In typical Armenian style,
we are asked to examine the surface; but if we dig deeper, we learn the ICTJ primarily used the "avalanche" of Armenian propaganda to make their determination, and that their definition of genocide is that only one person needs to be killed... so that the murder of Talat Pasha by Soghoman Tehlirian can be called a genocide, rendering the word meaningless.
As rebuttal, I attached Justin McCarthy's views, where at one point he wrote the 1948 Convention is watered down enough to have the Armenians' experience called a genocide.
Forget the fact that even with the 1948 Convention's broad definition, the Armenians' story still doesn't fit, as "intent" has yet to be proven, and the convention exempts political alliances; Raffi completely disregarded McCarthy's main point, which is what happened to the Muslims at the hands of the Armenians would then also be termed a genocide. All Raffi was interested in was the one statement that was helpful, and pretended the rest did not exist. An honest person seeking the truth does not operate in this fashion.
Fadix has done what few Armenians have done; he has throughly studied this topic, making use of the limitless knowledge base of propaganda organizations like Vahakn Dadrian's Zoryan Institute. He follows in the footsteps of the slimy Dadrian, whose job it has been to try and discredit the real historical picture with the "avalanche" of selective "facts" the Armenian propaganda industry has had the luxury having produced for over a century.
There have been a host of influential Western people who have been taken in by this hogwash, aided by the fact that the "Terrible Turk" has been looked upon as outcasts of humanity ever since the Crusades. It's not difficult to find seemingly legitimate people who have been suckered in to the Armenian madness. As latter-day examples, we have Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan adding their voices to the genocide bandwagon on Raffi's quotes page. But there certainly is no shortage of duped/prejudiced Westerners from the "genocide days" that Fadix makes extensive use of.... not excluding the (WWI allies) Germans and Austrians who were the enemies of the Ottoman Turks for centuries, and not all would be able to shake their feelings of animosity. How easy it was for them to accept the sob stories of the Armenians and the missionaries, as well.
This is why I say Fadix has zero credibility. He knows the other side of the story. When he comes across evidence from sources with no conflict-of-interest (indeed, Western sources are primarily anti-Turkish, and those who would refute his genocide would have no reason to lie), does he stop and say, Wait a minute... maybe there is something to this. No. His first instinct, in typical Armenian fashion, is to think, How can I discredit this?
One of Fadix's many methods of putting up smokescreens (and to try and discredit me) is to claim I am "racist." This is ironic, because it has been documented (and hopefully it's not as true for current generations, but reading Armenian forums, I wonder) that Armenians have been bred to hate Turks. By contrast, the Turks deliberately didn't dwell on the past ills and shoved the 518,000 Muslims (the Armenians murdered) under the rug, stressing love and brotherhood.
What is said in those testimonies is not different than what was said regarding the Germans in World War II, after witnessing the German horrors of the war. Raffi is simply presenting the words of people being horrified. But of course you have no problem posting materials describing Armenians as worst in your own web-site. As for the Armenians being lovely people, comments like this won't undo your racist views.
June 16, 1880, Lt.-Col. C.W. Wilson, British Consul General for Anatolia described the Armenians as "immoral, fanatic, bigoted," and that "truth and honesty are sadly deficient."
Harold Armstrong, 1925: "argumentative, quarrelsome, and great know-it-alls." The Armenians are "crafty, grasping, secretive, acquisitive and dishonest, making a great pretence of religion, but using it as a cloak for treachery and greed."
Sept. 30, 1908, British vice-counsel Capt. Dickson: "unsympathetic, mean, cringing, unscrupulous, lying, thieving... endowed with a sneak thief sharpness."
WOW! What better way to describe "Zero Credibility" Fadix? Especially with that "sneak thief sharpness"! The above described qualities are unfortunately not absent from Armenians who dishonestly try to justify their huge genocidal con job... at the head of which is that master manipulator, Vahakn Dadrian, who actually tried to legitimize Andonian's forged telegrams, the ones Andonian himself indicated were fake.
I'll make use of Weems' "Armenia" and Gurun's "The Armenian File" to counter Fadix's smokescreen assertions. I urge you all to read these books... especially the mediator, who will also suffer from a bias (like the ICTJ lawyers), because of the prevalent Armenian propaganda that has brainwashed so many. Note Armenian attempts to discredit both authors have nothing to do with the immaculate sources that have been researched, particularly Armenian sources... sources that would have had no reason to be untruthful. Gurun's book is available online,
Let's say there is a news story about how a teen-aged girl shot her uncle. Should we automatically conclude she was a cold-blooded murderer?
No, ladies and gentlemen, when there is a crime committed, or what we are told is a crime committed in case there's no proof, we don't simply look at the final act. We look into the history of what took place in order to determine whether punishment is to be meted, and how much.
(It's funny how the Armenians love to have their cake and eat it too. For example, in the trial of Tehlirian, the assassin of Talat Pasha, the murderer walked scot-free. Why? Because the events in question -- and not the murder itself -- were examined in the fixed two-day trial, where only witnesses for the defense were permitted and whose outcome was pre-determined. Tehlirian had committed a "genocide," using the ICTJ's defintion. Tehlirian was unpunished. Maybe it's true what the genocide industry tells us, that if genocides remain unpunished, genocides will be committed again. This is why countless Armenian terrorists in future years committed genocides against innocent Turks, and some of the few who were caught usually got slaps on the wrists from biased Western courts.)
This is how Armenian propagandists hope you will swallow their big con job. Look at the surface. Never scratch underneath.
On p. 162 of Hovannisian's "The Republic of Armenia," the Armenian professor explains: In 1800, Armenians were scattered (around) Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey. In all but small districts, Armenians were a minority, which had been under Muslim, primarily Turkish, rule for 700 years. The Russian empire had begun the imperial conquests of the Muslim lands south of the Caucasus Mountains. One of their main weapons was the transfer of populations - deportation. They ruthlessly expelled whole Muslim populations, replacing them with Christians whom they felt would be loyal to a Christian government. Armenians were major instruments of this policy. Like others in the Middle East, the primary loyalty of Armenians was religious. Many Armenians resented being under Muslim rule, and they were drawn to a Christian State and to offers of free land (land which had been seized from Turks and other Muslims). A major population exchange began. In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic), a Turkish majority was replaced by Armenians. In other regions such as coastal Georgia, Circassia, and the Crimea, other Christian groups were brought in to replace expelled Muslims. There was massive Muslim mortality in some cases up to one third of the Muslims died. The Russians expelled 1.3 million Muslims from 1827 to 1878. One result of this migration, serving the purpose of the Russians, was the development of ethnic hatred and...conflict between Armenians and Muslims. Evicted Muslims who had seen their families die in the Russian Wars felt animosity toward the Armenians. Armenians who hated Muslim rule looked to the Russians as liberators. Armenians cooperated with Russian invaders of eastern Anatolia in wars in 1828, 1854, and 1877. When the Russians retreated, Armenians feared Muslim retaliation and fled. Hatred grew on both sides.
There you have it. The roots of the "genocide" have nothing to do with false theories like pan-Turanism, Muslims hating Christians, and the coveting of Armenian wealth. the roots of the "genocide" lie in Armenian treachery.
We can now understand how important it was for the Ottomans to take the Armenian threat seriously. If the Russians crashed through the gates, there would no longer be a refuge for Turks and Muslims to escape to. The Ottoman Empire was the last stop. The struggle was truly a matter of life or death.
Not only is it relevant to examine the past (and things really heated up with Armenian treachery after 1877, with the formation of Armenian terror groups), but the events of post-1916 as well.
Hovannisian admits to Armenian atrocities ("Public opinion in Azerbaijan was incensed, and the government, revolted by the atrocities, demanded strong measures to ensure the safety of the Muslims," p. 181),
well confirmed in the memoirs of an Armenian officer, "Men Are Like That." This is the Armenian M.O., following the Orthodox (including Russians, Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars) method of ethnic cleansing: massacre Turks and chase the rest away.
These would be "Death and Exile"s 5 million expulsed Turks/Muslims and 5.5 million killed from the Greek War of Independence until the end of WWI...
the ones pro-Armenian "genocide scholars" like Israel Charny, Tessa Hoffmann and Robert Melson never talk about.
This policy was followed by modern Armenia in 1992, massacring Karabagh Azeris and expelling nearly a million. (Fadix will give you weasel facts to try and dispute this, even though these events are in modern memory; note the West is largely silent about this episode, and American policy has gone as far as to punish victimized Azerbaijan, thanks to the strong power of the Armenian lobby.)
However, our topic is Armenian behavior in the Ottoman Empire;
Almost all were missionaries and racists or propagandists. After the war, we received better clues as to what really transpired, from pro-Armenians like Niles and Sutherland in 1919, and Admiral Bristol, whom the Armenians love to vilify.
It is very relevant to see how the Armenians acted murderously, in order to incite violence against them...
and how the Armenians spread their false propaganda, which present day Armenians like Fadix and Raffi are still patriotically carrying out...
thus inviting the European powers to intervene and give them "free land." The culmination of this treachery took place when the war broke out, and Armenians engaged in war against their country.
The ingratitude and greed is mind-boggling. British parliamentarian Sir Ellis Bartlett, 1895 pamphlet: "The tall tales were the wicked inventions of Armenian Revolutionary Committees" and had been "wantonly spread over Europe in the interests of these mad agitators and their paymasters, the Russian Panslavic societies."
Bartlett's notions are well confirmed in Capt. Norman's "The Armenians Unmasked." ( http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/report1895.html)
The Armenian claim "that the Christian subjects of the sultan were denied all liberty, and atrociously presented was a thoroughly false one... no other government had for the past four centuries shown as much toleration, or given so much religious freedom as that of the Ottoman Empire. Every form of religion-- Greek, Jewish, Nestorian, Roman Catholic and all others-- were allowed perfect liberty of practice and doctrine. Had the turks been less generous in the past, they would have escaped many of their present troubles. When heretics were burnt to death in France and Germany, and even in England, the Ottoman Government allowed its subjects entire religious freedom."
Armenians were the moxt taxed people in the Empire, they had under the Islamic law no right to defend themselves on court, while Muslim false witnesses were accepted, Armenians were not. Armenian witnesses to defend their cases had to find a Muslim witness or their cases was dismissed. The Muslim on the easy were exempt from the Penal Code 166 controlling the manufacturing of gun powder and arms, while this same law was applicated point by point against the Armenians. An example was when the Ottoman army raided the Erzerum cathedral in 1890, killed countless numbers in it, destroyed the inside and have found no arms at all. What Torque call treachery and Armenian rebellion, was legal for the Muslim and even supported by the government.
But of course Mr. Call that tolerance.
We can see the truth level of Fadix's attempt to make us believe how oppressed Armenians were ("second class citizen status on the law books and in practice ...'infidels'") by looking at Armenian sources. Oscanyan was so oppressed, he was allowed to go to America to study, where he wrote "The Sultan and his People" in 1857. Cymbal-maker Zilidjian was allowed to travel to Europe on a yacht he built, in the 19th century.
This doesn't mean all Armenians were living in a utopia. Indeed there are countless hearsay accounts Fadix can no doubt unearth attesting to how Armenians were treated dismally. (I recall a story about how a Turk went to an Armenian's store, and lopped off his head. I think it was provided by a missionary.) And the Armenians of the east were subjected to injustices by lawless bands. What's never stated is Armenians suffered where Ottoman control was weak, and the ones who suffered were all Ottoman citizens, Muslims included. Moreover, among these lawless bands, not all were Kurds and Turks... there were also Armenian and Greek lawless bands, primarily targeting Muslims. Consequently, Muslims were being attacked from two sides, by Muslim and non-Muslim brigands.
Migirdich B. Dadian, another Armenian living outside the Ottoman Empire, opined about the situation of Armenians in 1867, in a newspaper in France. What we understand is that the privileges granted the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were nothing less than a landless autonomy.
These opportunities were officially given to the Armenian community, at a time when no state was interested in them (and it was these very privileges that opened the way to the troubles we are now haggling over). It can be said that of all the countries the Diasporan communities are currently living, not one of these communities has freedom to the extent granted to Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire.
The Armenians were the wealthy ones, and they made the wheels turn. ("This community constitutes the very life of Turkey, for the Turks...have relinquished to them all branches of industry. Hence the Armenians are the bankers, merchants, mechanics, and traders of all sorts in Turkey." Oscanyan, 1857)
Why would the Ottomans further weaken themselves during desperate wartime by ridding themselves of this valuable national resource... the ones who were so indispensible, Oscanyan stated, "without them the Osmanlis could not survive a single day"?
Would it be fair to assume Clair Price made perfect sense in 1923: "...the military situation had turned sharply against the Enver Government. The Russian victory at Sarykamish was developing and streams of Turkish refugees were pouring westward into central Asia Minor. The British had launched their Dardanelles campaign at the very gates of Constantinople, and Bulgaria had not yet come in. It does not seem reasonable to assume that this moment, of all moments, would have been chosen by the Enver Government to take widespread measures against its Armenians unless it was believed that such measures were immediately necessary. Measures were taken."
First I present the Western Academics version as it is, in its section. Then, I present the Turkish government point of view. Then, the cases of the Turkish human right organization and Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide. Then, the various cases, Military tribunal, Permanent People tribunal. Then, the International community(recognition, UN etc.)
etc.
Every party well have its representation. So that when someone come and read, he will have a knowledge of the version of each sides.
Are you familiar with the folowing text?
Those who constantly attempt to advocate their views on politically charged topics, and who seem not to care about whether other points of view are represented fairly, are violating the non-bias policy ("write unbiasedly"). But the policy also entails that it is our job to speak for the other side, and not just avoid advocating our own views. If we don't commit ourselves to doing that, Wikipedia will be weaker for it. We should all be engaged in explaining each other's points of view as sympathetically as possible.
In saying this, we are spelling out what might have been obvious from an initial reading of the policy. If each of us is permitted to contribute biased stuff, then how is it possible that the policy is ever violated? The policy says, "Go thou and write unbiasedly". If that doesn't entail that each of us should fairly represent views with which we disagree, then what does it mean? Maybe you think it means, "Represent your own view fairly, and let others have a say." But consider, if we each take responsibility for the entire article when we hit "save", then when we make a change that represents our own views but not contrary views, or represents contrary views unfairly or incompletely, surely we are adding bias to Wikipedia. Does it make sense not to take responsibility for the entire article? Does it make sense to take sentences and say, "These are mine"? Perhaps, but in a project that is so strongly and explicitly committed to neutrality, that attitude seems out of place.
The other side might very well find your attempts to characterize their views substandard, but it's the thought that counts. In resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it's far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly. That will be appreciated much more than not trying at all.
"Writing for the enemy" might make it seem as if we were adding deliberately flawed arguments to Wikipedia, which would be a very strange thing to do. But it's better to view this (otherwise puzzling) behavior as adding the best (published) arguments of the opposition, citing some prominent person who has actually made the argument in the form in which you present it, and stating them as sympathetically as possible. Academics, e.g., philosophers, do this all the time. Always cite your sources, and make sure your sources are reputable, and you won't go far wrong.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 22:06, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Here we go again at square one.
I have to conclude you do it on purposes. Let me repeat for the 100nt time. My problem IS NOT about representing the other side, MY PROBLEM is about introducing misleading and erroneous informations. You have first edited and claimed this was about Armenia and Turkey opposing eachothers, when another member has obviously seen your clear biases, he reverted it to a conflict between the international community and Turkey. Wikipedia clearly stat that this is not about presenting both positions as equally valid, it is about presenting both positions. There are some informations that have nothing to do with positions, example... that this is an opposition between Turkey and the international community... and they should be presented. Your deletion is beyond neutralization.
You as well purposely manipulate the entry and clam: “Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans.” This is entirely sabotaging the article. I will tell you why, the ratio of Western scholars recognizing the genocide vs not recognizing it is about something like hundreds or thousands to one... And this is waiting the: “If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.” And I still included it even if I didn't need to do so. Your version is misleading it has nothing to do with neutralizing, you try to fool the reader to believe that this is 50-50 debated among Western scholars, which IS NOT the cases at all, so your changes are beyond neutralizing.
Now the most obvious cases of of manipulation, is when you introduce the word “alleged” before “deportation and murder.” Are you supposing that the fact that Armenians were deported and that there were many that were murdered is debated? This clear example of misleading show that you are not neutralizing the article. The question is not about if Armenians were deported and murdered, because no one deny that, the question is about if the Ottoman government ordered the destruction of the Armenian population.
Coming to the four points. First of, I am summerising my cases as much as it is possible, you don't expect me to write few lines to cover your biases here?
Second, I did not ask you to leave, I asked you to mind about things you know about rather than getting involved in things you ignore. If you have interpreted this as me asking you to leave, it further justify my request, since that by interpreting this as if I ask you to leave, you admit your ignorance, and still request to edit by introducing erroneous informations.
I will not stop “accusing” you to have a hidden agenda because I am not accusing, I am just pointing to the fact that you do have a hidden agenda, I do not need to accuse you, your editions clearly show it.
Fourth, I am focusing, your “neutrality” is a very important issue, because you want to present yourself as a moderator. My complaints are really relevent.
And lastly, believe me, as time passes by in this discussion, it will become clear that you are biased.
“You suggest Armenian Genocide happened and that its a fact. I suggest we dont know if it was a state organised extermination plan or just WW1 fatalities. NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW dictates thats the proper corse of action regarding this matter.”
Again, I repeat, your editions have nothing to do with Neutral point of view, your editions delete accurate informations. If I claim most western scholars, that is a fact, a ratio which can not be debated, if I say that this is a problem between the International community and Turkey, this as well is a recorded fact which can not be debated... those have nothing to do with POV or NPOV. Fadix 00:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware Florida Georgia Idaho Illinois Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina Tennessee Utah Vermont Virgina Washington Wisconsin
Doesn't this constitute majority? --Fadix
My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)::::::::That is because, Coolcat, it is a personal attack. But at least our friend did not call you a "RACIST NAZI" as he did with me. -- Torque Mar 22, 2005
If you use word murder you are forcing the reader to accept genocide. If you use the words like most, majority you are still forcing the reader to asume the genocide.
You are a moderator and so am I. You cannopt prove genocide on wikipedia. Thats against NPOV.
Sweeden currently does not recognise the genocide according to this article hence the . The ratio of the scholars is irrelevant ant this point,
"Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans." is a very confusing statement. If you realy want to talk about neutrality you have to accept a contaverisal topic as this one requires 50:50 ratio on all issues.
When you use the statement. You cannot force this matter untill other mods give up. That is definatly not the way we do things here. I did not delete that statement. I commented out for someone to reword it. you have no idea what commenting out means you have no idea what the tag does, and you claim things. You are neutral and I am not, thats your suggestion. Yout Truth is based on facts only I got a bunch of lies. Is that what you suggest? I am not accusing you of things why are you constantly acusimg me. This can be considered a personal attack you know. --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV suggests that both sides have equal say regarding all items.
When you use the words most, many, majority, you breat that balance. This article tells us currently that most western scholars think genocide did happen while a minority claims it didnt.
The views of any non western scholars are irrelevant hence we dont mention them.
You are not making a stronger case by insisting on keeping an extremely confusing sentence as "Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans." . I merely want to simplify it to "Scholars". --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) You will stop acusing me. I am starting to get annoyed. --Cool Cat My Talk 20:13, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) In wikipedia when a mod edits something we give them about 30 - 60 minutes before working on our edits for them to clarify their case. Please folow this civilised attitude. If you continue to revert all my edits on this article. Ill handle YOU diferently.
You are obligated to recognise my authority and the authority of all moderators and they recognise yours, you are welcome to ignore me but any more Personal Attacks from you will not be tollerated. Such attacks will result in your destruction, I do not WANT your destruction. I am warning you so that you dont get destroyed. This is neither a threat nor an attack - just a freindly warning. I am a moderator and so are you. Everyone on wikipedia is a moderator. Not everyone is an Admin. I know mods who turn down admin requests as it is a lot of hard work so dont underestimate/dismiss us mods.
Since a scientific concensus have not been reached regarding the Armenian Genocide you cannot talk in the name of the scientific community, the international comunity is not as involved as the article suggests. International comunity often refrains from involment in disputes. This article is more than simple history discussion but is a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 22:12, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I can also list 50 states who opose the genocide in the US, would not be credible. I would love to see sources. I dont want you to paste the web page I am quite capable of clicking the link you post.
--
Cool Cat
My Talk 22:58, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I recognize your authority as a member and not as a moderator. I don't see where it is stated that I should recognize your authority as a moderator. A moderator is supposed to moderate, and to moderate one should be able to differentiate himself from his biases, something you are not able to do. And again, it seems that you didn't get the point. I can not attack you without intention, you perceive it as attack. I am making you charges but not attacks. I report your clear biases, call that attack I don't care, and I am patiently waiting a mediator, because I am confident that he/she will realize what is so obvious, that you are attempting to sabotate the article.
My posts are long, and I am sorry for that, I come from forums where the average posts are in the hundreds of words, I participate in a history forum where generally people post essays and studies, and I thought that Wikiepdia was such a serious place where people had actually done researches regarding topics in which they participate in. I landed up here after I realized that the Armenian genocide entry not only was clearly biased, but as well contained dubious materials, which authenticity can even not be confirmed. And to my surprise, there was the author of tallarmeniantale, the racist known spammer that was hijacking it. But by then, you had no problem in trying to neutralize it, you had as well no problem leaving only two websites supporting the genocide theses against the other position which included a bunch of links. You only decided neutralizing when Mr. Torque position was defeated and he claimed leaving. Those are facts which display your clear biases.
As for the states, had you actually visited the links I provide, you would have found the answer. The fact of the matter is that not so long ago, the Armenian genocide was to be recognized by the Federal government, internal polls suggested that it would have been passed with a majority vote. After the president talked with the Turkish president by phone, the vote was pulled out. Of course, I do not refer to those things, I do not refer about as well, to the many other countries which Turkey pressurized to pull out the votes, including Syria, Iran and Lebanon.
As for the scientific community, read few books dude, you have no clue of what you are talking about, this cases is the second most studied genocide, there are thousands and thousands of books referring to it, and you claim that it has not been established by the scientific community, that is ridiculous. Fadix 23:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is NOT a fourm, this is not an essay either. Historic "facts" are always contraversial. You are trying to prove armenian genocide I am trying to neither deny nor acknowlege it. THIS IS NOT A GOD DAMN FORUM LIKE you suggested, views of both parties should be voiced EQUALY. I am not even trying to deny genocide but all I request is you dont try to prove it. As far as I and every one else is concerned Neither Turkish nor Armenian nor any other Propoganda is welcome here. You cannot chase us away and force us to acknowlege your facts. You are asking me to read books, whose views? Pro genocide, anti genocide. This page is not your research paper. Untill the diplomatic dispute is resolved there are two parties should be adressed 50/50 regarding this matter. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 23:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a member class, you are either a moderator or an admin. You are welcome to talk the admins in creating a 3rd category for you. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 23:29, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
BWAHAHA!!! (sorry could not retain myself). So Sir is neutral :)
The documents are forgeries, the Armenians were sent in russia or to pic-nick in the Syrian desert.
What is disputed among the historic community??? if you have access to online libraries or Historic publications, search for the word “Armenian genocide,” maybe http://www.questia.com/ could be a start, research the ratio if you could find any, you'll only find McCarthy, and Gunter who bases himself(as he admits) on McCarthy, the rest of the publications and discuss about the Armenian cases, the same goes with other libraries. That the majority of the scientific community recognize can even not be debated. This subject is even not controversial, there is Turkey, and there is the rest. And here you claim having read and the BS you present are the regurgitations from the Turkish government. Sorry to say you this, if the majority support the Arm”a”nian genocide theses, it should be presented as it is recognized and not as you would wish it to be presented.-- Fadix 00:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not qualified to discuss if it happened or not. I do not have (or will ever have) phds in social studies. I do dispute your claim of historians agreeing on this matter. Normaly when someone claims entier world VS one thing thats biased. I just thing declaring a nation a bunch of "cold blooded" "Political Lying Unholy Cowardly Killers" is biased. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Besides, why does it bother you to make this article 50/50? It is not like you represent the entier scientific comunity. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just think you are making this article one sided. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
IN THE 19th CENTURY IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE: 29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha, 22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs, 33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament, 7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals, 11 Armenians served in universities as professors.
There were 803 Armenian schools employing 2088 teachers with over 80,000 pupils within the Ottoman Empire in 1901-2.
BRITISH CONSUL IN ERZURUM, GRAVES replied to the question of New York Herald Reporter Sydney Whitman "If no Armenian revolutionary had come to this country, if they had not stirred Armenian revolution, would these clashes have occurred?" as follows; "Of course not. I doubt if a single Armenian would have been killed."
Toynbee estimates the number of the Armenian losses as 600.000. The same figure appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica's 1918 edition. Armenians had also claimed the same number before. Bogos Noubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, declared that after the war 280.000 Armenians were living in Turkey and 700.000 Armenians have emigrated to other countries. According to the estimation of Bogos Noubar, the total number of the Armenian population before the war was 1.300.000. Therefore, it can be concluded that the number of the Armenian losses was around 300.000. This figure reflects the same proportion, according to their total population, of the 3 million loss of Turkish lives during the same period. Once more, facts do not correspond with the Armenian claims.
I am pasting stuff I picked up from diferent web pages. Is that just propoganda or factual, you are the knowlegable one, I am not qualified to comment. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I told you to stop acusing me of things. I am merely pasting what i found conflicts with what you are claiming, the oposong view. As you are the only person knowlegable regarding the issue and are neutral I was expecting a response. What you call bias is the other view, which you claim is complete bs. I am kinda confused. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So armenians living in poverty were killed in mass quantities for money? I doubt the people marching were the richest. I believe in reviewing all facts. If that makes me a revisionist so be it, hate me. I still like to rethink things and make sure the data is acurate. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) I am treating you in a civil manner, I expect the same kind of respose. You will stop acusing me of things or I will file a complaint regarding personal attacks which is more serious of an offense than vandalising. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's interesting that figures used showing how many Armenians had reached respectable government positions in the early twentieth century somehow suggest the Genocide didn't occur. These people in Istanbul (Bolis) weren't moved away when the new policy started. They were shot. Dmn / Դմն 15:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please don't make up quasi-authoritative terms like "moderator". We are all equal as editors--including the administrators. None of us has any authority on content and it is inappropriate to demand that anyone recognise such authority. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
At this point I am disputing the statistics regarding...
Like I said earlier I am not knowlegable enough to comment or argue with material on the article, I only pasted information form web pages. What you interprete from them is a bit different from mine, People in High places implies there were no racial hostilities towards the group of people before an event. Article currently acuses the Turkish side of a genocide and suggets All Armenians were 100% innocent in the hole matter... The rebellion suggests that was not quite the case. You arguing with me is rather pointless all I am trying to prove is that tere is an oposing view that is not a part of the article. -- Cool Cat My Talk 15:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article reveals more of the diplomatic and social aspect. Its mostly neutral still pro Genocide but has views of both parties.
"It's easy to understand why views like Akcam's aren't well-received in Turkey. Most Turks honestly believe their country is being asked to admit to crimes their ancestors did not commit. Turks also believe that any admission of genocide would lead to demands that Turkey pay restitution or give back land in eastern Anatolia -- ideas Armenians haven't dismissed. "
[ [1]]
Excerpts:
"Just as a sense of enmity was building against Turks by Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, and other subjects, so too were Turks becoming less tolerant of these peoples who, in their view, were traitors and ingrates."
"By mid-1915, [Enver Pasha] decided to rule out any future use of the Armenians by Russia by moving over 1 million people out of the war zone. Deportation had begun."
"At the same time and in the same region [as the Armenians], Turkish and Kurdish deaths were also very high"
"Ottoman officials clearly failed in their responsibility to protect the deportees from attacks by Kurds, deserters, and others. While famine, disease, severe weather, and a general lack of supplies seemed to affect everyone along the eastern frontier, it was the Armenians who, once unarmed, faced added perils from marauders, bandits, and undisciplined Ottoman officials and constabularies."
"'where Armenians advanced and retired with the Russians [the Armenians] retaliatory cruelties unquestionably rivaled the Turks in their inhumanity.'"
"The massacre of the Armenians, Armenian collusion with Russian forces, the aggressive policies of Russia, and the plight of the Turks and Kurds in the eastern provinces are important, emotional, and far-reaching questions that should be further researched. It is to the Library of Congress rather than the halls of Congress that we should turn to find answers surrounding the great tragedy that befell the Armenians and others."
[ [2]]
-- Cool Cat My Talk 16:02, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Torque, March 23 2005
Were you not the one deleting from the article, the Turkish government point of view? I gave a section as support for the other side, but you deleted preferring hijacking the article by merging both point of views as one. You have chosen to do that and I have warned you that if you do that, it will obviously lead the reader to conclude there was a genocide. I accepted to make a huge concession, you deleted it yourself and now you “cry” that the article is not neutral.
The other side you copypast has nothing to do with 1915, if you read revisionist materials, a large part of them are unrelated with 1915-1917, what do you want me to do? Is the Armenian genocide entry not about 1915-1917? And I renew my offer to present both point of views independently, presenting the strong arguments and the critics made about them. But again, the article will still lead the reader to think that there was a genocide. What you want me to do about that, since even the Turkish government version of the event would still be a genocide under the UN convention, this is why any serious historians and specialists claim it to defy logic.
And now, you are interpreting the event, this is your POV, you admit not knowing much about it, yet you affirm. People that knew me past over 5 years ago, when I was posting in a Turkish board, I didn't knew much about the topic, the first work I have read was a denialist work, my position really reflect my study about the topic, and here I am more moderate than many specialists that claim that debating with the other side doesn't even worth losing your time.
You made an interesting point last, I ignored it, I was upset about myself for ignoring it. You claimed that Turkey proposed to exchange documents but Armenian refused, those are things that give you away, I don't buy you anymore sorry. Because if you weren't biased to begin with you would understand the refusal.
This is not about convincing Armenia, this is about Turkey showing that the question is debated. Because if Turkey was really sincere, it will invite the Holocaust and Genocide specialists around the world to discuss about the issue. And here is the point, they already have invited specialists, and not only Armenian specialists have refused over the years, but as well neutral ones... specialists are not interested to trap themselves in a political discussion, when their study is historical.
Coming to your points.
1- That most scholars recognize is not a dispute, if most believe it it should be written, and ideally, the reason for this should as well be said.
2- I proposed to divide the article with the different point of view, you ignored my proposition.
3- Make some propositions
4- I discussed with Torque, he lost his cases, the informations I provide regarding the camps and the special organization can not be rejected, other than claiming forgery and propaganda... but those are not valid explanations, since the sources are Ottoman records and German records.
And lastly, again expose your clear biases, the said rebellion you reported has nothing to do with 1915, the records are about 1890s, and the source is Uras collection of files, he was the master Ottoman propagandist at the time and known as the father of denialism.
The extend of “racial hostilities” still debated, and has nothing to do regarding whatever or not the government took the decision of destruction, this is what is important here, the subject is 1915-1917, and it is about what is called the Armenian genocide. Fadix 16:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You can ignore my cases, you are not the one who will be putting material to the article, we have a person doing that for us. You talked Torque to death, you are tallented in that, you dont want to make any comprimises, that genocide is a solid fact, this is rather fanatic if you ask me. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added and removed the "Turkish point of view" and "Armenian point of view" as it was leading to bias and was being a very difficult edit. Besides they can be merged. I was working on this article long before you showed up and claimed you were tha absolute authority regarding this matter. All you did was talk several people to death. I seriously discourage that. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 16:42, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am by providing counter interpretations that you are not as neutral as you claim. I learnt a lot while studing the matter. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Where is the hidden camera? That is really becoming surreal. What are you talking about? I discussed with Torque, because he was the only opponent that knew a little about it, while I know his racist nature and how it had no place in Wikipedia, I still talked with him, because I thought your side should have a representation.
Now you claim I am not neutral. Duh!!! Who told you I am? I am convinced a genocide happened, this is a surprise for no one, I have been reading regarding the subject for over 5 years, have read over a hundred book, references to over 500 others, countless numbers of essays. And Torque that consider me as a less than an animal won't deny that. It is obvious that after reading the bunch of materials I will have my opinion. But again, this is not relevant here, you asked a NPOV article and I will give you one, but the article should be accurate, if a claim is made, it should said by who and why... if something is supported by most, it should be indicated and the why as well, this is what should be ideal, what should as well be ideal is attaching to each point of view its critics... ideally, both side should be included independently with their strongest arguments. But the problem being that one side has a bunch of more arguments and is supported by much more people, still people that will read the article will think that the article support one position against the other. But this is to the reader to judge. You can not delete one sides argument to make the cases as 50-50, because if you do that you will mislead the reader, you will introduce a POV, which will be that two positions are equally valid.
So, Coolcat, that didn't knew much about it few days ago, has learned a lot now just by going after sites which support his position and reading few quotes. I changed my mind, it isn't surreal, it is humoristic. Fadix 17:03, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What can we put in as facts into this article:
The article is limited to explaing 2 years of the process of this event. What lead tho this event and anythging prior that affected this is not clearly stated. Article should be more of a bullet format than storry telling, that ends up with too many one sided comments which shifs the interpretation of the fact. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1- British archives support the theses of genocide. If you claim that the British archive say else, it would be an inaccurate information.
2- ASALA did not exist to “prove” genocide, it was called a justice group, and was about forcing the Turkish government to recognize, and take over what they considered as occupied lands, this is unrelated to the Armenian genocide. You can not present something that brings no “informational” statement regarding the topic at hand.
3- No, Armenians did not revolt or committed treachery, even the Turkish foreign ministry official released archives don't report that Armenians were deported because they committed anything. If you claim that happened it is POV, you can not present the Turkish government version as NPOV.
4- Most Japanese did not die during the deportation, etc. it is not the same thing at all, this is an interior movement of people without destination... in which over half perished. The Ottoman barred access to relief, they released from central prisons butchers to escort the convoys, those are recorded by German and Ottoman documents. If you make the statement you propose it would be POV.
5- Armenia has no note to exchange with Turkey, Armenia is just a country like others that recognize the genocide. Armenia as it declared many times has no political aim with the question, the genocide is historical, Turkey want it to make it political... it wants to pressurize Armenia, because it lost when it claimed that historians should decide. Historians decided and now Turkey last chance is to exchange with a country that it closed its borders with.
6- There are international court rulings, the Permanent People Tribunal has ruled for years(1984), The Ottoman Martial Court in 1919 concluded it was an act of planned extermination. The UN recognize it, and many such bodies. So your claim is wrong, if you write that, it is a wrong information.
7- Coolcat, it is obvious you are not a native English American, you words are middle Eastern in Nature, because you would not have used the term race to differentiate peoples of different ethnic groups, you are mistaking ethnic groups with races. Beside that, everyone agree that in World War II, people died, everyone agree that Germans and Jews died, recent statistics shows that more German died, but the Holocaust entry is about the losses of Jews etc. not Germans. The Armenian genocide is about the Armenian losses and not other peoples losses, if you introduce other informations, they have no place here.
Lastly, what lead to the event is World War I, I would have no problem including 1914, but again, it won't support your cases, because there are nearly no records from your side for those years, while there exist German records regarding crimes against the Armenians. Since I am kind, I am trying to neutralize. Just try the mediation, you'll see that the article is more on your side than what a neutral article would be. Fadix 16:49, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok so,
And what I dont like (my pov)
My side is neutrality. -- Cool Cat My Talk 17:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1- The ratio of Armenians having died, with Assyrians(this should be covered as well), is beyond any other groups. Besides, this is the Armenian genocide section, Ottoman losses should be included in the World War I section, and if you visit its talk page, I have raised the point regarding the low figures representing the Ottoman losses.
2- ASALA was active in the 80s, it was a terrorist organization, it has no place in the genocide article, if you claim there is, you are completely biased.
3- No government take decisions for no reason, genocides don't happen out of the “blue moon,” of course there are reasons, like there was reason to destroy European Jews, like there was reasons for the Outous to destroy the Toutis, like there was reason for the Kmer Rouge Class, to hierarchical Kmerian system, which lead to the destruction of over a million people. There was reasons behind the Ukrainian famine, there was reasons behind the German policy against the Herreros at the beginning of the last century. The thing here is, about a decision which led to the destruction of the Armenian community in Anatolia. Do you see any Armenians there now? No!!! That we take the Turkish government theses or that we take the theses most supported by specialists in the field, the result is the same. Zero Armenians, and it is enough to be applicable as genocide under the UN convention. And this is the main weakness of the Turkish government theses of “no-genocide,” because even their version is genocide according to the definition.
4- The Ottoman took hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants from the Russian Empire, they fed them, vaccinated them, recorded them and “relocated them” and “deblocked” an amount of money. They had enough capability to have such precise lists etc. but surprising as it seem, there are no such lists for the Armenians who were their own subjects. It was harder for the Ottoman to deport the elderly, women and children, then leaving them... they did it regardless even if they were no threat. The Ottoman “evacuated” Armenians outside of the war zone... when they did not need to do so.
5- I don't see how this news support your case.
6- You ask for court cases, and when I provide them you tell me they are not valid.
7- I did not claim “British” American, but native English American, I dough English is your first language, that is all, it is not the first time you alluded to race, you used the term racial as well... you use such terms that are pass dated in the American society, those terms suggest hatred or racial characterizations, your words such as “attacking a nation” etc. as well, those are not attacks, those are relevant here, they are about your biases... you are hiding under the banner of neutrality to go and hijack entries about Turkey, and now you have been exposed to be the totally biased person you are. You are in no position to claim anymore that I am biased, when you are obviously more biased than I.
1- I am not the one posting in other members pages and accuse others on their backs, you are, when I think something about someone, I tell him, and I don't see what is wrong here, I don't see how I am against the rules to claim that someone has a hidden agenda because he introduce his biases in every given occasions in every articles involving Turkey. Am I accusing you? Yes! I won't deny, I am happy though that you are not using the term “attacking” anymore.
2- Your second point is again another evidences of your non-Western mentality, this is generalization and has no place in Wikipedia, you think a world Armenian conspiration, similar than those theses of world Jewry conspiration support by people like Zundel. What you think of a “people” has no place here, what you think an entire nation does or does not has no relevency, it only confirm my suspicions about you. If you can't confront my position, fine, but stop accusing an entire nation... because this is an accusation, and not the genocide, the genocide is about leaders of a government having ordered something in this cases, while you accuse an entire people of doing things. I think we had enough of Torque racism, no need to pull fuel here.
And no, your side is not neutrality, your side is personal POV. Fadix 17:54, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
...
You suggest everyone that does not think like you do to completely hide their views and hide in a dark corner I guess, I am allowed to pu my POV as they are relevant to the articles NPOV status. If my views and your views clash, there needs to be a neutral tone at those parts. Meaning when we talk about Armenians lobying outside of Armenia we need to empfisise what both parties think about it. -- Cool Cat My Talk 19:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat, this is a question of probability and mathematic, and not because you oppose to my views. What is the probability to have a complete neutral stranger who not only participate in every possible entries regarding Turkey, not only do he introduce his biases, not only does he leave biases introduced in one direction and not other, not only that he uses the term “Arm”a”nian... but that he comes here and question the veracity of the second most studied genocide. What do you want me to say? At least, my position is supported by the specialists in the field. There are even a Turkish organization in Germany working in the prevention of genocides that not only do recognize the genocide but as well petitioned among the Turks and got 10,000 names(Turks) asking the recognition of the Armenian genocide. I have a Turkish friend that has gone in the East, and there are stories of colored reddish send, they believe the sand is red because it has been colored by Armenian blood, in the New York Times few years ago, there was an article of someone that interviewed Turks in the East about “stories” of Armenian massacres. You don't expect me to consider you as neutral after all those things are you? In fact, wait till the mediation start out, and you will clearly see that my position will be considered much more neutral than yours.
What is the point of the Armenian lobbying group, are you suggesting that they buy the academia? Don't you believe that the Turkish government pressures forcing countries to redraw resolutions more than counter balance any lobbies? Don't you believe that all those millions spent by the Turkish government more than counter balance it? Don't you believe that the founding and funding of Ottoman chair of histories by the Turkish government, and the introduction of grants such as the ITS and ARIT, more than compensate the Armenian lobby? The Armenian lobbies power is insignificant when comparing it to the power of a government that spent millions, that introduce itself in universities Middle Eastern Departments, and directly pay “specialists.” Or what to say about those hundreds of diplomats hidden under their diplomatic protections distribute in every given occasions diplomatic publications, which material will be called racist by Western standards? Of course the Neutral you has nothing to say about that, but you have a problem with Armenians fight against the denial. Don't you have any idea of how the ASALA was born, do you know why it was in the 70s and 80s? Wait till I cover and neutralize the ASALA entry.
And again, I am not against the presentation of the Turkish government theses, I did post it, you deleted it, what you are after is to present it as equal as the genocide theses by deleting who says what and why they say it, this is a clear attempt of hijacking an article and is against Wikipedia policy.
Now, let cover your 7 points.
1- There are the official Ottoman records of 800,000 killed, and there are the quota submitted during the Military tribunal, the German and Austrian records present as well over a million, that we take the Ottoman records or its allies records, we come to over a million deaths, and this clearly show that over half of the Armenians did perish.
2- P.L.U.C.K sing about the genocide and is in a “war” to get it recognized, Bush statement is about the event.
3- You want the article to present your POV here, it is your point of view, while I present the theses supported by people, what you think is irrelevant.
4- True, and that is why most Armenians were not shut, but killed by various other methods.
5- The article is about the Turkish government asking to research the matter, it is a political move, I have covered this in my discussion with Torque, you tell me to answer when I have already answered those points, but of course you're not interested reading what I write, but rather googling trying to find revisionist sites.
6- The Permanent People tribunal has an international mandate, and has covered over the years many other cases, the Ottoman Military court has concluded “extermination” planed and executed by the government... the leading figures were condemned to death. The UN recognize it as genocide, and any such bodies, what you claim here makes no sense at all.
7- Oh LALA, now you are using the term attacks, which attacks? I am accusing you and not attacking you. Oh and it is kind of ironic that you accuse me of what you are doing, from when did I write to other members lying about you like you did with me?
1- Go ahead, you are free to do what you want, if you expect to shout the other position with such cheap tricks without you can't confront with arguments, go ahead.
2- Shish, my views are fanatic? Well, go call the academic community as fanatics because they support my position then. Again, you are lying about me Mr. While me accusations have grounds, you accuse me with things which you yourself know are untrue. Where did I even prevented the other side to have its point of view? I even have gone as far as posting in a forum where Mr. Torque spam with his racist rhetoric to come and participate in the mediation. Does it sound that I am for the suppression of the other side? Mind you again that I even posted the Turkish government version but you deleted it because it was specifying whos position it is. You don't want people to know who says what, and here is where my problem is with you. Fadix 20:37, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In some cases the word relocation could be used, because of what was supposed to happen... example, the Ottoman at the beginning relocated, but in some other cases, when the result is important, the word relocation is not accurate... Because if we have in mind that there is no Armenian left, the result would be "deportation" instead of relocatiom. I will see how the change in some instances could be made.
Without its uses the article is not accurate, there was no reported 25 to 26 camps, but concentration camps, there were transit camps, and "spot camps" etc. The article as it is can not be accurate, because the reader would think that this actualy present all the camps. I will modify it and will be trying to be neutral. - unsigned fadix
I recomend no one to touch article directly. Mediator(s) should be handling this matter. -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix is not being neutral in my opinion. Please vote if you agree or not, I am trying to determine if its just me or him... -_- : -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Yes -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What load of crap is this attempt? Where did I ever claimed I was neutral? I do have my opinions about the event, but this does not mean that the articile is not neutral, there are hardly anyone neutral about a topic. So I will even say yes and agree with you on your own vote, because I have nothing to hide.
But the question here is not about if I am neutral or not, but rather if your intention is to make the article neutral or not. This is what should be passed on vote here. But we know that because of the nature of this subject, the votes will be biased to begin with. Fadix 20:40, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry I am failing to reason with you. You dispute any view that remotely prompts that the genocide was not really a genocide, you call al of that bias, you call me names you acuse me of various wierd things, I am sick of being polite. You scare away people from the conversation, you can never prove the genocide on wikipedia. Its against the norms of wikipedia, the oposing view is either not represented, or represented vaugiley. Any person reading that article would think that a genocide happened, after reading the article a person should be indiferent. Any acusation must have a counter. I type something you either call me biased as an answer or you dismiss it completely. Thats not how we do things on wikipedia. I have seen lots of complaints by various mods... I dont like it. THis is not being productive at all. Fadix is terrorising the article...
I just checked if there was a “fallen star,” I was away for hours and when I come back I realize that you have posted the message just one minute before I viewed it, I should make a wish.
What names do I call you, give me examples please, do you mean the word “biased,” you should check what you did yourself and compare them with how I answered you. You called me fanatic, you have waged a war to ruin my credibility by warning about me on countless numbers of members talk pages because you were unable to discuss the topic.
You are wrong Sir. you can not manipulate an article as to make it look 50-50, it would be POV, trying to modify articles to support two cases equally as to suggest equality is a suggestion and it is POV. I repeated and repeat this again, you can't do that.
True, one position should be countered... but the problem is that there is no counter for the special organization or the concentration camps covered by the other side. The other side answer to that is complete silence, I have read many revisionist materials(all major ones) over the years and haven't found anything. If there is no other side for those points it should be left as is until there is few peer reviewed works being published that provide the other side here, according to you all the points that have no other sides should be deleted. Fadix 04:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, you have been adding a lot of information to the article recently. As a suggestion, I think the quality of the article would be higher, if you mentioned all your sources in connection with all the pieces of information. You might want to read this: cite your sources Stereotek 20:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocide
According to Ericd, "They are clearly established cases of genocide the Holocaust, Armenian genocide (despite Turkish denial) and Rwanda. I don't think NPOV should go as far as leaving a loophole for Holocaust deniers."
And that was my position at the beggining, and I could have defended that position that would have had chances to succeed, but I was kind enough to present your point of view in the article more than it had place in.
Oh is that it, despite Turkish denial, the views of several million people is irrelevant. This article will either be neutral or either be neutral. you will not use wikipedia as a tool to spread your views. I deny the holocoust, so does a lot of scholars. You will NOT use wikipedia as a propoganda tool. The very concept of NPOV means NEUTRAL point of view, that aint neutral as long as there is an oposing view. I want an article thats not offensive to either side. Currently it has staemets like "the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation" or "Many of those responsible for the genocide where sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. The martial court established the will of the Ittihadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its " are not neutral. Since Fadix dictates recent history cannot be a part of the aticle recent history section shoukd either go or material oposing the genocide must be added.
Thanks for admitting your denial of the Holocaust, it becomes clearer now, Mr. Deny the Holocaust, why should he recognize the Armenian genocide, afteral the Holocaust [according to him] is a fake, the Armenian genocide as well, so as what happened in Cambodia, Rwanda... onces I finish working on this article, don't try tricking people with your NPOV by trying to manipulate its(Holocaust) entry, because I will oppose to it as I am opposing here. You still fail to comprehend Sir. Neutrality is not about presenting two theses as being equally valid, because that would be a paradox, if you do that to be neutral you kill neutrality. And I am sure that as an engineer you are intelligent enough to understand what a paradox is, right? Maybe you should meditate about that at night.
True, those points you raise should be toned down, but they are accurate data's, toning things down doesn't mean to delete them and delete their sources, this is what you want, but sorry I won't accept that, and am sure that no one would accept it, including moderators and arbitrators. I am ready to present opposing views here, but there is no opposing views here again, the other sides answer is SILENCE. Now I have to sleep, I hope tomorrow, if I view the page, I will read things that make more sense coming from you. Tomorrow will be a good day, I will present the references for the documents and start adding new stuff and footnoting. I am still ready to add a section regarding the Turkish government point of view you know... I'm really a kind person. Fadix 04:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views..."
The minority point of view that the Turkish government promote should of course be mentioned, but according to Wikipedias policies it should NOT be given equal status to the point of view shared by the vast majority of experts. A section regarding the Turkish government POV would in my opinion be great, and nothing more is really needed. Coolcat, are you serious that you deny the Holocaust or is it some kind of joke? If not, you have in my opinion lost all your credibility. Stereotek 12:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought and thought about it and have read Stereotek provided link, I need people concensus about the way it will be presented.
I thought of presenting for each section, few bibliography that are concidered relevent, I thought of the footnote way, but the thing with that, is that the footnote way in other articles is always used(those I have viewed) to point to links, even thought there might be sites for some, I mostly(or nearly always) rely on works, and the footnote would direct to works rather than sites. If I present the Turkish government version, since denialists are obviously more vocal on the internet(the same goes with the Shoah), a large part of their books are accessible(not so long ago, McCarthys book was accessible from the Turkish foreign ministry website, but isn't available anymore), so maybe in the cases of the Turkish government version, citing sites would be relevent.
I am awaing peoples suggestion here, including yours Coolcat.
I also thought of starting an entry regarding the "Ottoman Armenian Population," because alone it requites an article and might be long. Fadix 19:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did not delete anything from the article, I commented out parts. There is a colosal diference. I was objecting the way it was written. Stop acusing me of things damnit! -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This section should mention the most important facts, and one of the most important facts in this article is, that the vast majority of scholars support the genocide theses. Maybe you don't like some specific facts, but that is never a valid excuse to delete them. Doing so is POV vandalism. Stereotek 12:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you insist, I am not buying it. Also why did the death toll rise from 1,5 to 1,8 million in the dast 6 days?
Not quite, I have seen people talking about 2.5 million people died. You cannot use the bell curve estimation due to the high level of propoganda and lack of evidence. the range is so large, I dont like it either but if you make it any diferent misguided people will definately chnage that. the +-5 and outlyers are not in the statistics. There are turkish propoganda sides dictating no one died, rather far fetched in my opinion so 200,000 1,800 is the official armenian claim?
Also I edited
Armenia, tell me what you think. It will be best of our interest not to include scholar data, I refuse to believe its factuality, I do not see what most is based on. Number of books are irrelevant, the authors may be quoting each other. Besides it is not lead section material, and is excesively complex as a sentence. I do not see why keeping the reader read material at a 50-50% factuality bothers you, dont you want the user to figure it out on their own? --
Cool Cat
My Talk 17:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, be bold: [4] Stereotek 05:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok so this is your article and whatever anyone else claim is ignorable? like it or not numbers range from 200,000 - whatever. Lack of evidence and acuracy in body count is the reason. The numbers provided are disputed. Why is there a diference in body counts by various diferent archives. There are different numbers and either neither view will be heard or both. I will not be satisfied with the absurd "scholar" statistic in the lead page. Armenian Genocide was not a genocide according to one view, you are dillusional to suggest of "mislead the reader", that is what you are doing by suggesting the genocide. Article should be factual not POV oriented, pro genocide, no matter how you paint it is a POV anti/counter genocide is another view. Your personal beliefs are none of my business. You can put anything you wish on your talk page, this page however where you will not rule. You may not like what some people are suggesting, but slamming all anti genocide material is untollerable. "Denailists" may be your enemy, but wikipedia is not you battle ground. -- Cool Cat My Talk 06:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If the mediator will not follow any of my suggestions, there is no mediation. -- Cool Cat My Talk 06:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Views of "Dr. Wolfgang Gust" are not less significant than "Dr. Justin McCarthy". Scholars have not decided on the matter, do not declare that. -- Cool Cat My Talk 07:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous. statistics of works are the only way to measures specialists position. If someone did a research, it is expected that to get it published it should be peer reviewed and then published... this is how it works, if someone has a position and did not publish any research, he can not defend his position by claiming his claim to be academically valid. This is how it works in the academic world, and if you have ever published anything in a scientific paper, you will see that this is true.
As I see, there has been many talk yesterday, when I was to a Genocide Symposium, where Taner Akçam gave a lecture, he even used the term “collective schizophrenia” to call his own society behavior regarding the Armenian genocide, and now you are here using the term “delusional”(again) in what regards what I say. This sort of claims can be considered as attacks.
And I repeat again, I offered you to present the other side, YOU DELETED IT, because you don't want people to know who believes what... you can NOT just claim some think that happened in a middle of an article, and then go as to say, others don't believe it. This would be misleading people. The Martial Court has no other side, the Special Organization has no other side, WHAT DO YOU WANT me to do about that? I can not delete informations just because there is no other side, that would be hijacking an article to mislead the reader. As for the mediation, you killed that up by ignoring it, because obviously you knew that if this thing was to be passed there, you will have everything to lose.
Coming to McCarthy, the man is a joke, he participated in the Turkish government founded Armenian Institute in Ankara as aim to deny the Armenian genocide, he participated in the publication of Turkish ministry work regarding the Armenians, during an ATAA conference he has declared that he will be trying to change Turkish history, during a conference in Turkey, he even used the words “we're trying to rewrite history.” The man, after possibly realizing that even Turkish sources admit that the Armenians have been intentionally under counted, when he realized that there is records in Armenian archives of a very precise Armenian figure population, as precise as to present the last digit, he claimed that if those numbers were true, it would just mean that 250,000 more Armenians felt victim. Is there any serious academia that will take 250,000 death people as just numbers that you can exclude? You know what this means? It means, that McCarthy is trying to save his face my indirectly admitting that he might have done a mistake, but this is not just a simple mistake, it is nearly his life work. Let me explain what this means, this guys under counting of Armenian losses would be about 850,000 deaths... the same guy that literally write in the Turkish press that the Armenians stole Turkish lands... and claimed that the genocide was a “lie” not a mistake but a lie. This man methodology was reported being completely flawed, and Frédéric Paulin in his Doctoral research has shown how none of the four points to apply the Population Stability theory were respected. And here without indicating that McCarthy both received Turkish ITS and ARIT grants, because it is not only enough that he participate in Turkish government diplomatic publications. Comparing Dr. Wolfgang Gust with McCarthy is to compare apples with oranges, while McCarthy interpret, Gust publish the official German records of the time, which are report for internal consumption, and secret reports, Germany reporting its allies plan of extermination etc. Fadix 15:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just realised that Mr. Torque who claimed not wanting to participate has just posted in the archive section, many answer, I propose everyone to read the exchanges. I will be answering every single posts he makes. I decided to not slander him anymore and maintain calm, everyone shall read the racist person he is and how he slanders his oponments. I appologize, since because of this answer, it might take longer for me to work on the pages. Fadix 16:17, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He can edit his own arguments in archive, he can delete anything he posted, no conflict with wiki policy there. You cannot acuse him of being racist, thats a personal attack, refrain from persoal attacks. Even if one has Nazi propoganda on their user page tehy cant be decared racist. You cannot do that we dont allow that kind of attitide, you are new thats why people are leaving you alone. Know that tensions are rising. Several Admins are already aware how unproductive discussion is going on here. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have been away from Wikipedia, and am appalled. The article now has completely been done away with and replaced by Fadix's propaganda. It should be retitled, "FADIX'S ARMENIAN GENOCIDE." How can this happen? Here, a clear propagandist with ZERO tolerance and credibility has come in here like gangbusters, and with his running mouth has chased away some of the people who have tried to counter him. Of course; who can deal with such a frantic force?
In his zeal to legitimize his genocide and place it on equal footing with the Holocaust, he has introduced theories about "concentration camps." He has made a lot of wild claims based on the weasel facts of Vahakn Dadrian. Can the reader believe these unholy claims, such as "Other records from the Military tribunal, suggest gassing installations existed as well." For one thing, the hearsay that constitutes "suggest" is out of order when all we're interested in is genuine evidence. Secondly, that "military tribunal" was conducted with almost no due process and the primary objective was to place blame on the previous government. Moreover, the puppet Ottoman government that was under enemy occupation was warned by the British to come up with culprits, otherwise the Turkish nation would be treated severely under the Peace Conference. (The Ottomans complied as much as they could, and the British/Allies rewarded them with a death sentence for their nation.) Under these circumstances, no fair person could accept their findings as just. Even the British rejected them when they took a turn for judicial credibility with the Malta Tribunal.
If the 1919 kangaroo courts were not good enough for the anxious-to-convict British, they certainly are not good enough for encyclopedia authors who are solely interested in the truth. They are not acceptable as evidence on this page.
"Children were sent there under the pretext to take baths, but were poisoned instead." How convenient! Just like the Holocaust. What's lacking is REAL EVIDENCE. People with lack of scruples can easily come up with these horrible lies, and try to pass them off as the truth. How could so many Armenian orphans have survived, if the idea was to purposefully murder Armenian children?
"While the total number of victims that perished in all camps is hard to establish, it is by some sources estimated that close to a million would be a reasonable figure. This figure excludes Armenians who died in other ways..." So here we have a pre-war population of around 1.5 million, one million survived according to Armenians, And close to a million died through outright murder? Even when that many people weren't even relocated in the first place??? (The Armenians who lobbied General Harbord in 1919 said only half a million were relocated.) And when we add the number of Armenians who died in other ways, the "famine and disease" ways in which the MAJORITY of the Armenians died (like the bulk of the 2.5 million+ Turks/Muslims who died), how many Armenians were killed in total? I guess that would run into five million or so.
And the section "The Special organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa)" is outrageous. All of this is pure DADRIAN SPECULATION. "It must be noted as well, that physicians participated in the process of selection, where health professionals were appointed by the war ministry to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply a degree of savagery of killing that was required." Fanadix is actually trying to pass that nonsense off as a real fact?
TREAT THIS SHAM PAGE SERIOUSLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. IT WILL NOT LAST. It's the original article that will go under mediation. If the page was allowed to change, what is the purpose of mediation? Fanadix has already gotten everything he has hoped for and more. It is totally unacceptable.
Coolcat deserves special praise for possessing the fortitude of dealing with this unreasonable pharisee. Fanadix spills his beans on his original talk page: "I don't have much to say about me than maybe that I am allergic to the denial of the Armenian genocide and that I will fight it in Wikipedia until denialists give up." I have no doubt of his sincerity, because this is his life. No matter how much he tries to con us with his "humanitarian" claims that he is interested in other genocides and how many times he harbors no "NO PROPAGANDA OR POV" (Yes, he actually wrote that in Archives 10), his strategy is to pummel the readers with his "160 pages," utilizing all the weasel facts his Dadrians have accumulated through the years. He will lose no opportunity to discredit anything that comes his way. Nobody has the time or energy to deal with such a Fanadix. He could very well get what he's after; that's why the Armenians are far ahead in this debate, and why so many academicians mindlessly accept their propaganda as real fact. People on the other side of the fence, as myself, have much better things to do with life. What we're dealing with is pure, rabid obsession.
I have been away for over a week, and I didn't think the last Talk Page I remember would have been archived already, but Fanadix's incessant jawbone has turned this section into the "forum" he thrives on. Some of his nonsense needed to be countered, and I wondered how to handle that; adding the pages and pages of yore to the current talk page would have turned this page into the volume of seventy phone books, so I tacked on comments within the lines of the original discussions. (MGM requested we not go back into the archives, but that's presuming normal Wikipedia archives, not the forum this is turning into. In only a couple of days, there's a new archive!) It's already "old news," but the section we now need to concentrate on is the original, carefully cultivated page... the one that is supposed to be undergoing mediation.
Fanadix THINKS in his egomania that he has successfully countered the original article, but he has done no such thing. He has taken each section point by point in what is now Archives 10. (Which needs to be combined into Archives 11; the latter features repeat segments from other archive pages, and can be replaced by the second half of the overlong Archives 10. I tried to do it, but my computer kept freezing!) Here are some examples of how he has "succeeded":
Here is the value of Fanadix's "word": when I asked him to prove his assertion that Kamuran Gurun stated the relocation was "final and terminal," he provided the page number. Luckily, the book is online, and I gave instructions to the reader to find that very page. There is nothing on that page indicating the decision was "final and terminal." What it says on that page is that the Armenians were to be relocated. That's because the whole idea was for the Armenians to be relocated. The word used several times to describe the process is the very opposite of "final," and that word is "temporary"; and "terminal" is Fanadix's own unscrupulous editorialization. Yet, even when countered, with the evidence under our very noses, Fanadix still kept insisting in his big-mouthed reply that the author stated the decision was "final and terminal." Such is the level of his reason!
There is absolutely no sense in arguing history with this "Armenian Weasel Beast." (A nickname he bragged about, and I only embellished it by adding the kind of beast.) As he himself indicated somewhere in his 160 (now 1,600) pages, his first instinct is to try and discredit; the truth means nothing. He possesses the dogma of the worst religious fanatic.
I am sure the framer of Wikipedia never dreamt there could be such an unreasonable and determined force to contend with.
Again, it is the original page that we must contend with; that is the one called upon for mediation. The current one of unsupported, slanderous propaganda, where we are asked to accept Fanadix's word, the opinions/theories of others, is a travesty. I commend the brave souls who have been dealing with this nonsense; you all deserve medals. -- Torque March 24, 2005
At the root of genocide allegations lies the assumption: it is only the Armenian dead who matter. Never mind the Armenians directly murdered, with Russian help, more Turks/Muslims than the latter did onto them. The Turks simply aren't human enough to matter.
Fadix has gone out of his way trying to prove the 518,000 dead was closer to a number like 18, in his earlier testimony. Never mind that this sense of victimhood is a credo the Turks don't live by, while Armenians thrive on it. How can any person with humanity deny the crimes of the Armenians? But the Armenians have always denied their crimes. Their mass murderers like Dro and Antranik, as well as their latter day killer terrorists, are treated as heroes by the Armenian community. Fadix has promised to work on the Wikipedia ASALA page, continuing the trend.
It's a mindset. As an Armenian writer quoted by Ara Baliozian put so well: "What kind of people are we?...Instead of reason, blind instinct. Instead of common sense, fanaticism."
Since the Armenians like to claim they are the first Christian nation (as well as their apologists, like "The Genocide of the Armenians; The Tragedy of the oldest Christian People of the Word" Wolfgang Gust, whom Fadix praised above as a legitimate source) where are the Christian qualities of these Armenians who are so genocide obsessed? Why would anyone devote so much of his life to this century-old topic?
If Armenians are under so much despair, how about turning to a Christian way to cope? How about filling one's heart with love and compassion and hopefulness and happiness? That's what the Turks did after the war. Is there one Turkish family who wasn't affected by the chaos and ugliness and inhumanity perpetrated upon them by their enemies? But they did not care to harp on these destructive thoughts. They chose to forgive and forget. It's only with the revival of this genocide obsession, and the continuous slander that goes with it, that the Turks have finally come to realize silence does not work. Otherwise the Turks had let go long ago. Thanks to the Armenians, the horrendous crimes of their forefathers are now open for new generations of Turks to learn.
Jesus taught to forgive unconditionally, yet the Armenians have chosen the path of hatred, terrorism, antagonism and aggression. Is this healthy?
There have been some attempts to establish parallels with the Holocaust. This, after Israel itself does not recognize the Armenians' genocide. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres is on record for saying, "... Armenian allegations of genocide are 'meaningless' and that there is no similarity between the Holocaust and fate of the Armenians during the first World War...' '... What occurred to the Armenians was NOT a Genocide'. 'We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenian s went through but not a genocide'."
It is possible to respond by saying Israel is kowtowing to the Turks, as if Israel has been known to kowtow to any nation (not even the United States). But the above makes sense; in WWII Jews did not establish a combined force of 200,000 as Boghos Nubar tells us, almost all of whom came from the Ottoman Empire at one time or another; the Jews did not betray Germany; the Jews did not cooperate with the enemies of Germany, and the Jews certainly did not wage a campaign of ethnic cleansing against their fellow German citizens, hoping to establish a Jewish state on German soil.
This is why we must look at the BIG PICTURE and not be drowned in the statistics quoted by the Armenians, nearly all of which are based on speculation and are terribly unsubstantiated. One point to remember is the Armenians in the western portion of the Ottoman Empire were mostly unaffected by the relocation policy. Imagine conducting a genocide and ignoring the targeted people in the capital. How many German Jews in Berlin were exempt from Hitler's "Final Solution"? What about the ones from Munich or Frankfurt?
The Armenians who are very demanding and inflexible. For example, in Glendale, California, the Armenian "colony" (Hovannisian's word) have built up its numbers to 30%. With their influence and wealth has come the pocketing of the politicians. As a result, they got the city council to lower the flag to commemorate their genocide. This angered the community, because the American flag is not typically lowered for such occasions.
Then the Armenians used their influence to erect a genocide monument at public expense. A concerned reader from the local newspaper wrote:
"I do not feel that the decision to erect an Armenian Genocide monument on city property should be decided by the five men on City Council and a group of committee members. Between the flag-lowering fiasco and the current debate over the monument, this city is polarized as never before. The decision to erect a monument on city property should be left to the people of that city..."
Now doesn't that sound exactly like the genocide resolutions the Armenian Diaspora persuades governments to pass? A few bigoted and/or Armenian-catering politicians cast their votes on a historical episode they've only heard selective bits about from the "avalanche" of Armenian propaganda, and then suddenly it seems like the whole country or state has agreed upon the idea. This is so propagandists can point to these meaningless opinions and say to the unwary, You See? They Agree With Us!
A similar approach is used when this lie has been repeated so often that lazy or bigoted academicians have accepted it at face value. (It’s safer that way; who wants to be charged with being a "RACIST NAZI-LIKE FK," as Fadix called me?) So now the majority view has accepted this myth as the reality, and Stereotek can tell us this majority view is one of the "most important" facts.
More tellingly, from Glendale:
"...It's unfortunate that the leaders and spokespersons for (the Armenian) community feel the way HS (an Armenian) does. His views teach his community intolerance toward others. They teach his community to demean those that that don't agree with them. They teach his community to scream racism and hatred toward them just because they don't get their way. He teaches his community that there is only one way, the way he feels, and anyone that feels different is wrong. It teaches division rather than compromise. Compromise, (HS), is that so difficult to get? What a leader and spokesperson you are. Don't you see, the more you push this 'we won and the racists lost,' the sillier you look? Your colors are showing more and more. It's clear you have no interest in healing this community or finding a compromise. I find it amusing that you rally the Armenian community around an Armenian national issue, but debunk an American community when it rallies around something they may feel strongly about. I feel insulted being referred to as a 'ragtag group of self-described patriots' because I'm standing up for my beliefs. How dare you? ... It's clear that you don't care about the country you live in or its other residents, just your '30%.' I'm afraid, sir, that there are 70% here that are not Armenians, and maybe, just maybe, they don't all share your view and want to have it shoved down their throat..."
It's all there:
("You are neutral and I am not, thats your suggestion. Yout Truth is based on facts only I got a bunch of lies. Is that what you suggest? I am not accusing you of things why are you constantly acusimg me. This can be considered a personal attack you know." --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005)
When this genocide-obsessed pattern of the Armenians is pointed to, the best defense is to scream racist. But the ways of the Armenian colonies, whether in America or Canada and everywhere else the Diaspora has migrated to, follows a pattern that cannot be denied. We are simply up against a super-powered representative.
Epilogue: the genocide-obsessed Armenians got what they wanted by their typically underhanded manipulations, upsetting the majority of their fellow citizens by having their tax dollars spent on a genocide monument. There is a quality absent with such behavior, and that quality is: virtue. -- Torque, Mar 24 2005 (substantially edited for personal attacks -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:22, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC) (and I don't claim to have gotten them all, sorry, just trying to strike a happy medium between arguable point and personal attack)
I am patiently waiting the administration to come here and read Torque posts. I will of course answer any single points he made, it would take of course some time... but people could witness how he play with numbers he has no idea of... when I answer him, and then, probably he will claim having done it without knowing it, like he always do when he is exposed of manipuling data. As I see, the none-existing Goshnak was still brought out.
Anyway, if anyone want to report Torque, do it in your own discression, but I ask that person to not involve me, I am of course against his banning even if he has times and again abused Wikipedia rules. The reason for that is simple, he's the only supposed "other side" we officialy have, if it happens that he is banned, I know what will happen, the genocide entry will be spammed, the entry will be deleted etc. etc. I could perhaps ask something to the administration though, and that would be to edit Torque posts, by deleting racist and personnal statments, because of course if it happens that some Armenians start reading "Typical Armenian style" "So Armenian" etc. they might get offensed and start answering back, I am sure that no one is interested with that.
I apologize for the reast of the readers, since my contributation has been halted by Torque attempts and that I have to now return and expose him.
Thanks for your patience, and again, I apologize.
Regards
PS: I ask readers, should I answer first the most recent of his distortions? I have answered quite a few on the archive 10... but I was wondering if I should answer those first until I come here. Since I suppose there are reader, I guess they as well have interest on which points they want to be discussed first. Fadix 19:08, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Added Fadix response again, after editing out a couple of personal comments. The response is clearly as much on topic as Torque's rants about the Armenian people.
Fadix, I don't think you should waste your time responding to Torque's hateful attacks against Armenians in general. Such comments doesn't really need an answer, and they are clearly off-topic. If he should want to participate in a serious discussion about the article, then it is of course a new situation... Hate speech on the other hand, doesn't deserve an answer. Stereotek 07:49, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Torque was ranting about Armenian people as there is a "Diplomatic" sphere in the equation, The countries that have officialy recognised the Armenian genocide did not recognise on their own, they got significant pressure for various organisations. He is refering to that I believe. His attitude is not nice, but neither the attitude he argues with. -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I want to ignore what happened so far, for your sake. Lets start argueing again, and yes please summerise. I will be introducing this format (I copy pasted my default "mediation" template). I am not a mediator as Fadix will not accept it. If I refer to myself in the format I inserted below as a mediator know that it is part of the template. I am too lazy ro create a new one.
I suggest no one touch the article now on untill we reach concensiuses, while being bold sounds fun, we will end up with nothing productive if you guys and us start reverting. I already declared 2 cases, I commented out items that we will be discussing, nothing is gone just commented, You are welcome to comment out anything and discuss here as well. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and some Western scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. The statistics regarding how many Armenians perished varies and there are no official numbers, but most Western sources advance a million and over [...] What is refered as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied cases of what is called genocide and is often compared with the Holocaust.
Yes Coolcat - I could just as legitimatly say that about any denier of the Holocaust. So one historian disputes that the Holocaust should be considered a genocide. This we cannot present the fact that all other serious historians and more accept that it was a genocide because of the existance of the views of this one person. How can you believe that your position is th valid one> I cannot comprehend your mentality on this - what can I say? -- THOTH 18:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
While the total number of victims that perished in all camps is hard to establish, it is by some sources estimated that close to a million would be a reasonable figure. This figure excludes Armenians who died in other ways, but may include the Special organizations participation in the events; the majority of the excluded losses are recorded in Bitlis and Sivas.
Yes or no?
The Ottoman Empire had set up a recorded twenty-five to twenty-six of what is often reffered as "relocation camps or "concentration camps": (Deir-Zor, Ras Ul-Ain, Bonzanti, Mamoura, Intili, Islahiye, Radjo, Katma, Karlik, Azaz, Akhterim, Mounboudji, Bab, Tefridje, Lale, Meskene, Sebil, Dipsi, Abouharar, Hamam, Sebka, Marat, Souvar, Hama, Homs and Kahdem), under the command of Çukru Kaya, one of the right hands of Talaat Pasha.
The majority of of the camps were situated mostly near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some was only temporary transit camps. After reports of deaths, the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, While Del-El, and Ras Ul-Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days. Other camps were only used as temporary mass burial zones (Radjo, Katma, and Azaz) and were closed by Fall 1915.
The majority of the guards inside all the camps were Armenians.
Even though nearly all the camps (all major ones were) were open air, according to records, some were not. Other camps existed, accoding to the Military court, there where irregular Red Crescent camps that were used to kill by morphine injection, (two of Saib (Health inspector) colleagues, Drs. Ragib and Vehib testified during the court) and where the bodies were thrown into the Black sea. In other instances, according to records, there were some small-scale killing and burning camps, where the Armenian population was told to present itself in a given area, and burned en mass. Other records from the Military tribunal, suggest gassing installations existed as well. For instance, during the Military tribunal, testimonies in the effect that Dr. Saib and Nail, an Ittihadist deputy, were heading two school buildings used as child extermination camps. Both Saib and Nail were allegedly in charge of providing the list of children who were to be distributed among the Muslim populace; the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation. The Children were sent there under the pretext to take baths, but were poisoned instead.
Coolcat, I will be reverting every edits you make, you are a vandalist of articles, you are ignored. - Unsigned fadix
You cannot kick me out of the discussion, you have no authority, right, power. You reverted spelling fixes, Continue abusing revert power, I dare ya. -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Do a history comparasion, you are not acting in good failth. I made edits and removed them on my own. If you arent doing history comparasion how can you declare me of a vandal? You had no idea what I changed. -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:51, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
When this user complains about lack of good faith, it is with a cynicism that disgraces all of us. -- Wetman 02:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I introduced this color sceme for a reason. It makes it easier on how we are thinking. I changed several of you guys comments to illustrate the concept. If you are irritated I am sorry. Colors makes it easier. If you are for a spesific argument you should use color green, if you are against color red, if you are neither for or against use color brown. Also use this indenting unindented, for, 1 indend (ie :) against 2 indents (ie ::) neither for or against.
You will be discussiong this, there is no way out. I introduced something we can discuss easier, if You have a better sugestion let me know. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You think mediator will just declare your views as neutral and kick me away? We do not need a mediator, mediation service is over booked. The kind of a mediator you will get is a person who will hear my views and your views, make suggestions, he wont be able to dictate anyhting. I suggested we start analyzing article form scratch. You dont want to discuss. If you dont want to discuss, why are you here? -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:51, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Will you drop requesting that article be one sided? -- Cool Cat My Talk 03:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) I already answered you. N-E-I-T-H-E-R! A one sided article is unacceptable. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:12, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Instead of article wide discussion why dont you refer to smaller point, if you cant back down on any point, I cant either. -- Cool Cat My Talk 04:05, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I will not. That is irrelevant. Time will tell, we are already discussing the article, I will not let it stay one sided. I cant give you a clearer answer.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 20:42, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 03:05, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have been reading this section - article and talk - for several weeks now and I really think that most here have lost their sanity on this issue. Really - I can't believe the poisoned environment and the fact that the discussion has gone so far off base. Specifically I can certainly understand Fadix's frustrations - while at the same time understanding that he can be difficult to deal with (not that his heart or knowledge is wrong - it isn't at all - he is mostly right on the money IMO - its just his approach is perhaps a bit caustic). But ultimately I have to blame Mr Cool Cat for failing to properly understand this issue and for creating an environment that is clearly unacceptable and is not conducive for presenting actual facts or the truth.
Before I continue I wish to state that I am somewhat new to posting here and don't quite understand the dynamics of it - where this will even end up and how it will look - so bear with me please. I also don't quite understand the proposed color scheme - and perhaps this is a place to start. From what I gather posts are to be made as either "pro" "against" or "Neither pro or against" - well I just don't see at all how this will work and I can't imagine the same approach being attempted in either the Holocaust section or in any other genocide section (where the perpetrators are given – as you will – “equal time” to deny and/or present justification for their actions.
Face it Cool cat - aside from a very small but vocal contingent (based entirely within or beholden to the current Turkish government) there really is no debate concerning the Armenian Genocide (as being a genocide and in acceptance of certain basic facts) - no serious debate certainly. It is not at all an "Armenian Position" any more then if someone where to term affirmation of the Holocaust a "Jewish Position" - so please - if you really feel the need to interject - get yourself properly educated first. I find it curious that you seem very quick to accept the various posts by Tourque as factual - when his sources and presentation are clearly quite questionable and where they are basically unsupported from any broad academic nor are they generally properly sourced or put into proper context - yet you discount the very broadly accepted, supported and well known accounts and analysis that Fadix as provided - again assigning each as a "perspective" when this clearly is not the case and does not apply. What you term the “Armenian perspective” is in fact the accepted academic and historical perspective/position – what you deem the “Turkish Perspective” is just that – and no more. During the years that these events occurred there were hundreds and hundreds of newspaper articles and eyewitness accounts and reports that tracked and corroborated the acts of genocide that occurred and were perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and various (non-political) international aid groups mobilized to assist in providing for those who were dying and suffering. The evidence supporting the Genocide thesis is so overwhelming and supported among scholars that to deny such is akin to denying any other basically accepted and well supported set of historic events and is equivalent to questioning if the earth truly revolves around the sun. The same is true for these exaggerated charges that there was some sort of civil war occurring and that the victimized Armenian community had any real power to fight back as the Turkish propaganda (from the time and continually being developed) attempts to assert. There is no factual evidence to support this counter-contention.
I have no issue with presenting a "Turkish version" of events - as such - in an addendum - and the whole issue of the history of Armenian attempts at recognition and Turkish attempts of denial could and should be an addendum to any discussion of this Genocide - as the fact that this is occurring and that deniers such as Tourque and the Turkish Government have managed to deflect the issues. It is also important to note that the Turkish government’s continued well funded and unrelenting campaign of denial (combined with its strategic position and its political leverage) have made it difficult for many nations to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide as such – but this does not in any way mean that was not truly a genocide as it meets every possible definition for such. Additionally the official Turkish campaign to deny that it was genocide essentially continues the campaign of the Genocide itself against the Armenians as a people (and this point is widely accepted among genocide scholars) and this means that this is a living ongoing event and not something that is just purely historical. A presentation of the historical and ongoing attempts on the part of Turkey to officially downplay, deny and (internally) avoid discussion of even the historical Armenian presence in Anatolia should as well be a key factor in this discussion. Likewise readers should be aware that the current laws in Turkey prescribe a penalty of death to anyone within Turkey who affirms the Armenian Genocide (I seem to recall you making a comment that most Turks do not believe it to be a genocide - well - one needn't not just wonder or speculate why this is the case). Additionally they have maintained quite a narrow and self serving educational program for their people that ensures that they have no mention of nor certainly any debate concerning the allegations or issue of the Genocide – in fact they teach their people a clearly concocted version of history that absurdly claims genocide against the Turks on the part of the Armenians. And as unbelievable as this sounds they have built monuments within their nation to this effect. Can you imagine how disgusting such a thing is to the families of Armenian victims of the Genocide (and anyone concerned with social justice and/or with any kind of mind or heart?) and how truly absurd such contentions are to any real student of history who can at the very least see that there are tens of millions of Turks remaining in Anatolia and a few thousand Armenians living their now - at best.
Mr. Cool Cat you clearly have no clue concerning the actual history and facts concerning this Genocide, nor can you apparently separate fact from fiction in this matter - I respectfully suggest that you remove yourself from any kind of moderatorship concerning this issue. Please again consider that if this were a discussion of the Holocaust/Shoa - and you decided as moderator that a presentation of the Nazi propaganda against the Jews and subsequent revisionist history denying that a Holocaust took place should be presented on equal footing with the very well known and accepted history of such as we all know and accept it - think how well this would be received and think how the victims and their descendents might feel about your supposed call for “fairness”. This issue is no different. So I suggest that you let Mr Fadix - who clearly understands the events of the Genocide a great deal and who seemingly possesses an amazing collection of material and sources concerning the Genocide - write the article (the latest attempt seems pretty close in many regards). And really I think Wikipedia should be grateful for his interest and attention to this matter. He is clearly capable of writing an accurate and detailed account. I think he should better footnote and source his presentation however and that others should be given opportunity to input and revise (if there is some consensus that it requires such). Then an addendum coving any alternate takes can be added as well as additional discussion on these talk pages. But it is very clear that Fadix is accurately portraying the underlying facts/truths and history of the Armenian Genocide. He should be allowed to present such.
What may follow and provide value are additional discussions of the environment that led to the Genocide to include causation, rationale and other related issues (very much can be said for and presented concerning why Turks may have wanted to eliminate Armenians/the Armenian nation within their empire – on a great many levels). And there would be value in a discussion of various events that occurred prior to and following the conduct of the actual Genocide itself (including the very revealing military tribunals conducted by the Ottomans in 1919 and the subsequent efforts by Ataturk’s nationalists to avoid the repercussions of the Treaty of Sevres and ensure that Armenians and other minorities were no longer a factor in modern Turkey). Other items of interest might be providing a chronology of the deportations and massacres - a really good one seems to be lacking in many presentations – and it would go far in promoting a good understanding of the systemic, well planned and organized, and widespread nature of the deportations and massacres. Also useful would be some side discussions regarding the actual number who died/were killed (and why there is uncertainty/debate) and what happened to those who escaped or why some were untouched, and perhaps some presentation of the massacres (and genocide) of Assyrians and Pontic Greeks that occurred at this time as well. Another worthwhile sidebar would be a discussion of Turkish deaths from war and conditions of war and other related failings of the Young Turks movement and the rise of Ataturk and the Nationalists as relates to the position of the non-Turkish minorities in Anatolia. An accurate presentation of the role of Armenian revolutionary political groups – some of their initial ties to the Young Turk movement and the dynamics of their split and why the Young Turks would then want to make villains/scapegoats of them; as well as the extent of their insurgent activities in Eastern Anatolia may all prove enlightening and relevant side discussions. These various issues as well as a number of others might all be subjects for additional related sidebars for presentation and discussion. Just my suggestions.
The approach you (Cool Cat) suggest concerning an approach to properly present this issue is totally unworkable and unacceptable IMO. Again, the issue of whether this was genocide is not really a debatable one – there are not two legitimate “sides” to be presented. All serious unbiased scholars and academics that are aware of the determining events accept it as genocide. It is fundamentally acknowledged that the Young Turks planned genocide against the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire. The evidence clearly documents that they successfully carried out such a genocide and that the great majority of victims were essentially an unarmed and overwhelmingly peaceful and innocent minority population within the Empire who happened to be in their way (in a number of respects) and who also had property and valuables for the taking (certainly a motivating factor that was well proven in Ottoman tribunals after world war I ended). An overwhelming body of documentary evidence supports these conclusions. And the lack of Armenians in Turkey/Anatolia today – where they had lived and flourished for thousands of years - is further evidence that a genocide indeed occurred --[THOTH] 21:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 08:19, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am responding to the points Coolcat raises above.
He says this "Story has 3 sides actualy,"
Actually, this is not a "story", this is history. Perhaps history can be told in different ways, but only one thing actually happened. This is what you seem to fail to accept. You seem to think that if two sides (or three) have different versions, they are all equal. What everyone is saying here is that this is obviously not so. Only one thing happened, and by and large, it is quite clear. POV does not mean that every imaginary tale can be given equal weight. Sharon cannot come here and write Israel is not occupying the West Bank and Gaza, nobody can come and write that Azerbaijan has no oil, Neo-Nazis cannot come and say there was no Holocaust. What needs to be understood is that only one party denies there was a genocide - the Turkish govt. The only reasons they deny it are 1) misplaced pride and 2) fear of reparations. What they should instead be thinking is to find their honor and admit to the wrongs of the past, and if they can make some amends, to do so.
Finally, nothing written here should offend Turks at all. Why should they be offended by anything that has happened in the past? The only thing they should be offended by (on this topic) is that their government is denying the truth in their good name. That is wrong and fortunately many Turks are beginning to speak out now that censorship is loosening up. Genocide recognition by Turkey is just a matter of time, but in the meantime a lot of minds there that have not been exposed to anything not approved by the Turkish Government to read or see or hear must be opened up.
Oh wait, no, one last thing. I just want to point out that even countries (like the US) which do not fully recognize the genocide on a nationwide level, when they debate the issue in their legislatures, NEVER debate whether or not there was a genocide. That is ALWAYS accepted by ALL parties. The debate is between those who want to recognize the truth officially, and those who do not want to offend the Turkish government. When Bush issues his April 24th statement, he uses the definition of Genocide, but not the word. When the Turkish Ambassador writes about the genocide in private, he does not call it an alleged genocide, he calls it a genocide...
Everyone knows. Everyone agrees. Things are moving progressively in one direction...
-- RaffiKojian 15:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Response to “Guideline”
Good points Raffi. I agree with all that you have said. (with some caveat that I am not so optimistic as you are!) - I also think that the reasons for Genocide denial are not so simple and are multifaceted and that admission of such is admission of a lie that is much more far reaching as it pertains to the (ethnically clean as it were) foundations of the Turkish Republic itself and the view that Turks have concerning themselves as victorious victims from World War I - and more...the Turkish society has been intentionally kept in the dark and immature on these issues and for many reasons...reasons that IMO go far beyond just the Genocide (and admission of such) itself.
It is clear that by Coolcat's definition of how this article on the Genocide is to be presented that there is no real possibility for such (a truthful/accurate account). Most Turks (it seems - at least most vocal Turks) are offended by the insinuation that there was a Genocide - thus by definition Coolcat is telling us that we cannot make reference to what occurred as genocide. Secondly - most Turks - again it seems (and in my first post I discussed why) are offended and disbelieving of the facts of the Genocide and that the Young Turks killed so many innocents - they do not accept this and they go to great lengths to deny that this occurred. Anyway - I would love to contribute to this effort - it is (could be) perhaps a great place to present a nice (and I agree: unbiased and without rhetoric) summary of events - however it will be impossible with Coolcat's approach. As Raffi has said - all "sides" are not equal - it is impossible to present them as such. A presentation of the false (and at best highly exaggerated) claims from the Turkish side (as truth) will do nothing at getting to the real history and in fact will be a great disservice. I do not wish to be involved in such an effort. In fact I suggest that we let Mr. Tourque write the entire section and let him say whatever he wishes. (and just leave it as disputed or what have you) - anyone with any sense will understand what has occurred...
Some additional points - why would a present day Turkish newspaper be considered as some kind of a better or more accurate source of information then what scholars and the historical record present? And how are you Coolcat - qualified to judge? Of course they won't say it was genocide - its illegal to say so remember? Etc However I should add that I welcome the news that this issue is perhaps being presented (in Turkey) without the usual rhetoric. Still – one can understand the constraints and that even at best it will likely not present the “true” underlying rationales and events – as many of these concepts are difficult to present in such a format as well as in regards to the legal issues and such as mentioned earlier.
I highly dispute your "3 sides" argument having any validity. You call the Armenian views (a misnomer to begin with - it is essentially the world’s view etc) "propaganda" - and you claim that by serving equal parts of the Turkish and "Armenian" "propaganda" that you will arrive at the (NPOV) truth???? Am I the only one who sees the utter absurdity of this on a great many levels? (I address this more towards the end as well)
Pontian and particularly Assyrian Genocides do certainly warrant mention and linking with Armenian Genocide issue. Perhaps (Coolcat) you will moderate these sections as well and accept the "Turkish position" that these people were likewise traitorous (and deserving of elimination)…but perhaps it was the murderous Armenians with their grand army, concepts of racial/religious manifest destiny and history of massacre and such who killed them and drove them from their lands. Yeah – must be it…
Coolcat - pure and simple it is clear to me that it is likely that you are a (very slick) apologist for the Turks and that your mission is essentially to filibuster and outlast Fadix etc on this issue to ensure that essentially a great deal of doubt is cast on the truth and that the discredited "Turkish version" is elevated as essentially equal to the actual historical record (which it is not). You actions and position here lead me to no other conclusion.
I should add that I have long championed sympathy with the idea that to properly understand the context of the Armenian Genocide it is necessary to understand both the Turkish perspective (legitimate and otherwise) as well as all aspects of the (chaotic and highly stressed) environment (and related history) that led to this issue coming to a head as it did - with tragic consequences to the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire/Anatolia. This does not mean one accepts the propaganda lines (as you are proposing) - one must deal with the facts and events as best they can be known and delve past the rhetoric (which does exist to some degree on both sides – however it is clear which presentation is more truthful and accepted by serious and knowing people as in line with the actual facts). Still - the fact is that these events meet every known definition of Genocide and that there is no valid contention of civil war nor can there be any question that what occurred was mass murder – planned and committed by the state (or more accurately a party apparatus that had control of the state) and that it was committed against a people who were overwhelmingly peaceful and innocent (and largely incapable of defending themselves) - etc - these are the essential historical facts and they cannot just be thrown aside and the revisionist and unsupported version accepted as history. Certainly there are many aspects and details that warrant presentation for a thorough understanding of the specifics, the causation and context – but essentially this is what occurred and what needs to be presented.
Again - your (Coolcat) willingness to do so (obscure the historical record by accepting obvious revisionist propaganda) is testament to your inappropriateness to moderate this effort – what can I say? And again - what you propose is the equivalent of neo-nazi views being held equal with - well everyone else’s! Would this in any way be acceptable in a presentation of the Holocaust? Is this approach even remotely being taken there or in any other Genocide section? And its like allowing Biblical creationists to present their version of biology as a legitimate scientific alternative to the Theory of Evolution....I mean what should they do over there - try to come up with a version that melds each "side" and present it as the compromise (non offense to anyone) version? Would this lead to an accurate portrayal of (the scientific facts of) evolutionary biology? No! Clearly not! And neither will your approach lead to a truthful presentation of the Armenian Genocide! -- THOTH 16:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is in black & white. — Davenbelle 10:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
You cannot edit what I post. Please don't. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You should take User:Tony Sidaway's advice and "walk away from this one".
— Davenbelle 00:40, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Let us assume that Mr Coolcat is just purely ignorant concerning this issue - and not actually malevolent. I believe that without a proper understanding of genocide denial one might fall into its trap as he apparently has. Some of us who have dealt with genocide and holocaust issues are familiar with the pitfalls but one who is not may unwittingly become their instrument. Giving him the benefit of the doubt – this is what I think is occurring here. Obviously the approach he advocates is completely unacceptable because it exactly falls into the denial trap – this is an exact case example. It is clear that there is no possibility of acceptable resolution as long as he holds firm to the approach that would be completely unacceptable in any other genocide subject area. If we have no ability to remove him then we must educate him and hope for the best. Otherwise I would advocate just boycotting the article and instead concentrate on making other genocide related contributors aware of what we are up against.
I want to start by posting some excepts and a link to a recent genocide denial conference that was held at UCLA in February.
http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=21398
excerpts: The People Who Cover Up Genocide UCLA panel looks at people and governments who deny or explain away the Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, the killing of Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994, and the ongoing massacres in the Darfur provinces of Sudan. … Before looking at the motives of the Holocaust denial movement, Richard Eaton discussed their methods. While there are some outright lies, he said, they more commonly take isolated facts out of context and present them to mean something very different. This is usually done in a context that attempts to sound scholarly and avoids overt anti-Semitic declarations. "They pick very specific items out of the vast subject of the Holocaust and say this didn't happen that way and so forth." The deniers' strategy has been to pressure legitimate historians to debate them in public, as though their antifactual positions have equal validity with the body of established historical facts and accredited university scholars … The Institute for Historical Review and similar Holocaust denial groups write heavily footnoted essays with a scholarly tone. "All it takes to dispel this is to dig into their footnotes and see what the original sources actually say. But they know that the good majority of people are not going to do this." (my note concerning the above: it is difficult for us “amature” part timers to devote the proper time and effort to debunk this sort of thing. This is one reason why Coolcat’s approach is a “no-win” – it will not be possible to debunk everything (though Fadix has done an amazing and highly credible job – probably about as much effort as can be expected) more: http://yessem.blogspot.com/2005/03/patterns-of-genocide-denial-1.html http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish_distortions_denial.htm The following link is to a report on a Genocide denial conference from 2002 (selected excerpts to follow): (note these are not Armenians but genocide scholars who are fully accepting that it is a genocide and that it is denied much as Holocaust deniers do…): http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jan_2002/history001.html The conference moderator was Professor Roger Smith, Professor of Government at the College of William and Mary and a renowned expert on Genocide Studies. In addition to teaching and publishing widely on various aspects of genocide and its denial, Professor Smith is also the co-founder and former president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars. Formally opening the conference, Professor Smith began by briefly mentioning the impressive and diverse panel, comprised of a group of prominent experts including Samantha Power, the Executive Director Harvard University's Carr Center for Human Rights Policy; Professor Peter Ronayne of the University of Virginia and the Federal Executive Institute; Professor Christopher Simpson of American University's School of Communications; and Professor Henry Theriault, the Coordinator of Worcester State College's Center for the Study of Human Rights and visiting Professor at Clark University's Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies. … Professor Christopher Simpson… presentation featured four main points: establishing that denial is functional, that genocide creates its own unique constituency, that denial is rooted in geopolitics, and that "standing up" for genocide recognition is crucial. Formulating three elements of genocide, Simpson explained that genocide comprises the targeting of a group, most often by race or ethnicity, the intent to destroy the targeted group, and finally, the acts carrying out the group destruction. Based on the foundation of these elements, the Armenian Genocide is "a genocide without doubt," declared Simpson. Simpson then turned to the historical record of the Armenian Genocide, establishing the factors that prevented the rehabilitation of the Turkish perpetrators and encouraged the bystanders in genocide denial. He specifically cited the fact that although the Treaty of Sevres of 1920 and the Treaty of Lausanne attempted to effectively remodel the region after World War I, the legacy created by allowing much of the Turkish political and military elite responsible for the Armenian Genocide to retain power in modern Turkey can be seen in genocide denial to this day. He went on to show that the failure to reform Turkey and the Allied policies allowing the institutions of Ottoman Turkey to maintain power in the new modern Turkey transformed by Attaturk forged the foundation for the denial of the Armenian Genocide. This failure also prevented any real justice for the Armenians and led to a strong, nationalist Turkish constituency for genocide denial. Concluding by stressing the need to "stand up" for recognition of the Armenian Genocide, Professor Simpson demonstrated the methods of denial propaganda and educated the audience on the best means to combat such revisionism. He explained that the modern approach of genocide denial is through exploiting doubt and fostering skepticism, citing the common refrain "let's leave the Armenian Genocide to the historians." This propaganda of denial, Simpson urged, must be met with truth and opposed with logic. He added that there should be no denial of issues of principled, established historical fact such as the Armenian Genocide. … Professor Henry Theriault, presenting the case of Japanese wartime atrocities in East Asia from 1931-1945, with a look at comparative dimensions of denial. Theriault, no stranger to the Armenian-American community, teaches at Worcester State College and Clark University and conducted research in Japan comparing the denials of the Japanese atrocities with the Holocaust and the Armenian and other genocides. He is the author of numerous scholarly articles, including "Universal Social Theory and the Denial of Genocide" in the June 2001 issue of the Journal of Genocide Research. The Japanese atrocities, according to Theriault, were no different than other genocides and he cited the ongoing Japanese denial as sharing commonalties with the Turkish effort to deny the Armenian Genocide. He established the pattern of omission and distortion practices by many Japanese governments and prevalent in much of the Japanese media. Theriault also pointed to the similarities between the lack of justice in the aftermath of the Turkish and Japanese cases, mainly due to the influence of geopolitics. Theriault detailed the informal "network of denial" and even the emergence of so-called "celebrity" deniers, such as the mayor of Tokyo, engaged in historical revisionism. He noted that the fight against genocide denial as seen in the Japanese case is an ongoing fight, with the Turkish denial being only one of many dangerous trends of state-sponsored denial. (note: I really must check the Rape of Nanking entry in Wikipedia to see how the Japanese “side” is being presented…) Official Turkish campaign of denial exposed: http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/Princeton_Turkey.html And this piece concerning denials of the Holocaust (primarily questioning of existence of gas chambers for killing…) may prove illustrative: http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92b/ and same author as above on revisionism: http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet85a/ And from the Free Dictionary (who seem to have no compunction whatsoever at labeling it a genocide): http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Genocides%20in%20history Turkey (1914–1923) genocides by the Young Turk government Approximately 0.6–1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were killed (some sources cite much higher figures). The Turkish government officially denies that there was any genocide, claiming that most of the Armenian deaths resulted from armed conflict, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War. Approximately 300,000–600,000 Pontian Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were killed, and several hundred thousand others exiled. The Turkish government denies there was any genocide despite evidence to the contrary, instead blaming the wars with Greece which took place around the same time for the millions of deaths. See also: Armenian Genocide http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Genocide+denial BTW – here is a site that is for the prevention of all genocides. It is not an Armenian site. It has a very nice collection of scholarly and media sources that clearly present and accept that what occurred was genocide. There are sections on all other 20th century genocides besides the Armenian one as well. Note the link to Turkish sources on the Armenian Genocide page. http://www.preventgenocide.org/
http://preventgenocide.org/edu/pastgenocides/ottoman/resources/
Anyway – enough for now – I welcome others to add to this. Perhaps we’ll get this boy edumacated eh?
So you suggest that I leave the article in your capable hands and you will present it in a completely unbiased and Neutral way, and you have complete understanding of NPOV as soon as you joined wikipedia and complete knowlege on how contraversial articles are written? You suggest that anyone who thinks the Armenian Genocide's cassification as genocide be approached with suspicion be slienced. You mean you do not want any oposition while discussing the article. I am sorry but if noone is saying "No", noone is thinking. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 01:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To do this you cannot start asuming either thesis is a fact. I also suggest we provide archive numbers for any evidence for any party to go and get the archives at will. Web sites and books are not historic evidence, may be used to determine the language of the article. I want to know which archive suggests what. -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:53, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Google suggests: "Your search - Oghlum Ghonushma - did not match any documents" can you elaborate, no spelling suggestions either. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:06, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You can't make any progress in editing this article while certain parties continue to use reverting as a means of keeping their preferred version. Accordingly, and on long consideration of a request made some days ago, I have protected the article. Please discuss your differences on this article with civility and when they're resolved the protection can be removed. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:19, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please identify any lies in the article and I'll remove them. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well I can see a lot of accusations of sock puppetry and lying, and frankly I wish both sides would stop these accusations because they'll not make the article any better.
So you've said that the following are in the current version of the article and are untrue:
I've removed those references now. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:16, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK – Ms Coolcat then? j/k…sorry…Have I offended? I’m sorry – not intentional. :) A couple of things…I don’t think I ever offered to write your article – though I do think I could do so and from a non POV and unbiased perspective – though – with your apparent biases – you might not indeed agree (considering that you believe use of the term genocide is unwarranted and I believe that anyone who believes such is either ignorant or is a genocide denier or both – but I am open to someone truly making the case – based on fact – that it was not genocide. However, I have never seen any legitimate contention of the use of this word to describe what occurred...and neither really can I – knowing the facts – imagine that this is possible – but Ok – show us…).
And while I would be honored to assist or to input into this article I cannot in good conscience perpetuate your flawed approach that gives platform to deniers. I can see that this will just go around and around with no resolution. And while I could write an appropriate summary article I have not the time to create such from scratch (anytime in the near term that is) and I think we are blessed with someone who clearly has the time, inclination, knowledge, sources and capability to put such a thing together – Fadix. Now perhaps his approach may seem to you to be biased or such – and I can concede that there may be areas he has not presented to the degree of depth and with the broadness of perspective that I would prefer and other areas he has emphasized/highlighted that I perhaps would not – but fundamentally I believe that what Fadix is presenting is based entirely in fact and is accepted by historians as accurate and I see no overt bias – only factual presentation consistent with events that are known (by scholars/historians) and accepted as legitimate historical information. So yes – my position would be to let the most qualified available person take the cut and then let others add/modify based on support/consensus and however it is done here. Clearly Mr Fadix is the most qualified person contributing to this process at this time and should be allowed to take the lead in developing the article. I am new to Wikipedia and am admittedly uncertain how this is done – so I wish to take the time to learn before interjecting in the article itself (so I have never edited there – it is unclear to me if you are accusing me of doing such).
As for your other assertions – and I admit it is not clear to me if you are referring to me or someone else – but it seems as if your comments are addressed to me so I shall attempt to answer.
Are your criticizing me for being polite and civil? I don’t understand. Am I violating Wikipedia etiquette or are you just disappointed that you have no legitimate reason to silence me?
I have never edited your “talk” comments to my knowledge unless I have inadvertently done so – again I am just trying to figure out how this works – so its possible I may have done something by mistake. Same with cut lines comment. Again, I have been signing everything I have posted to my knowledge.
I understand this is an online Encyclopedia. Thus I have refrained from injecting on the article page at this time. I feel that there are very serious issues in regards to the presentation that need to be addressed before a proper article can be presented. Thus I am posting my comments and links to information – for your benefit – in hopes of convincing you that your approach is invalid. As far as I am concerned that is what these talk pages are for – at least in part – I would think – am I wrong in thinking this?
Unfortunately it seems clear that you have not given one bit of consideration to the validity of my objections – nor does it seem that you have taken the time to review the links I posted the other day on denial and revisionism. Again it seems that you have staked out your position (from whatever motivation) and you refuse to modify it even when there is evidence that indicates it is flawed and unworkable. Again – genocide denial is a well-known phenomenon that is practiced by apologists for all genocides and their pattern is very similar. What is different here in this section is that you are providing a platform for such and are entirely taking the denialist friendly approach that facilitates seemingly legitimate non-scholarly attacks which do nothing to reach truth but in fact obscure it. What you’re doing essentially amounts to something bordering on the criminal – and I say this in all seriousness. It would not be tolerated in the Holocaust section or the Nanking Massacre section or the Cambodian genocide, Rwandan Genocide or any other similar section. I have provided links to websites where genocide scholars specifically address this issue. You obviously are completely ignoring the validity of this position that is accepted by pretty much all scholars who are knowledgeable of it and you apparently have no desire to even attempt to understand it. How then can you hold your position as valid and worthy of consideration as the accurate approach to presentation of the Armenian Genocide section of an encyclopedia?
You wrongly claim that in my/our(?) position that I/we are somehow suppressing the truth. It is you who are encouraging the inclusion of untruth in this section. Again - can you imagine that your approach and someone who holds your beliefs would be allowed to prevail in the Holocaust section? Likewise you cannot be allowed to control things here – it is just that simple. This is why you are being opposed with such vehemence. We are not (I certainly am not) attempting to suppress legitimate debate and certainly not the inclusion of relevant factual information – but consider this - would Nazi critiques concerning the Jews or sidebar accusations against the Jews be considered legitimate in a presentation of the Holocaust? Would anything that is presented as an attempt to justify (or even "just" deny) the Holocaust be acceptable? And look at the racial accusations/approach and horrible slandering language used by this torque in addition to the use of known denialist tactics. His comments are indeed offensive. And you make reference to Armenians and others exhibiting “hate the Turks” mentality? I have yet to see this in any of Fadix or anyone else’s posts here – only the opposite on the part of torque – whom you insist to get an equal voice here. So why do you make such claims – just because they object to your hijacking this section in support of a true hate monger and obfuscator of the truth? I can see no other reason for you to make this claim.
You say that this section should not “insult or accuse” - well these are entirely different things. First of all you insult all Armenians and all believers in human rights and the truth by giving platform to denilaists. All legitimate scholars accept the Armenian Genocide as such – can you not appreciate the truth of this fact? What more must we provide you to prove this that we haven’t already done? (and this is in part illustrates the difficulty of developing such a thing on the internet – deciding the legitimacy of presentations and how to include non-web based material etc). And secondly – yes – the Turks are justifiably accused. I really don’t know what else I can say about this….-- THOTH 17:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh and thank you BTW for the compliment.
The Armenian Genocide issue - and specifically (slick) deniers of such - is something I am quite familiar with. I find it very telling that Coolcat is trying to peg us as all the same person. His paranoia reminds me of…oh I don’t know…many Turks I’ve come across – what can I say? I have never posted here as anyone else - though my first 2 posts on this subject I made prior to establishing a login and they are in archive 9? now - as far as I know. Coolcat utterly refuses to understand or acknowledge the legitimacy of my/our objections - be this due to ignorance or willful malevolence I know not. However he clearly is unable to accept that there is a severe problem with what he proposes and he is also clearly unwilling to make even the most mediocre attempt at educating himself regarding this issue. That’s fine – for someone who is uninvolved – but for someone who takes such an active roll in this subject I would expect a greater understanding. Who is this guy anyway? I fail to understand the hierarchy of contributors and who has what (differentiated) powers if any.
I am truly new to this place. It seems to have much potential but (obvious) pitfalls as well. And I came across this subject by accident. Wikipedia had popped up when I searched on another subject. I recalled that someone I had come across in a chat forum months ago had mentioned that the Armenian Genocide was being (more or less) debated on here but I had really thought nothing of it (as this type of thing occurs all over the internet in various - mainly less then apealing) - forms. I’m glad I finally checked it out though – hopefully a real tragedy can be avoided and this can be set right.
One thing as well I think I should add regarding my position - and as Coolcat seems to think - one sided biases. Several years ago I once had a very well (on the internet) known (Armenian Genocide) denier/general Turk Apologist (named Nick) characterize my views on the Armenian Genocide as bordering on blashphemous (as he saw it - looking at my stated views as if from the Armenian perspective) - additionally I have in the past been viciously attacked by (rabid) Armenians for being pro-Turk (much having to do with my stated admiration of Ataturk - but for other reasons [regarding expressions of sympathy/admiration for the Turks] as well) - so don't anyone think that I am on any particualr "side" here - I think the truth of this matter speaks well enough in and of itself. That being said I challenge anyone to prove in any way how what occured to the Armenians during this period can be construed in any manner other then being considered (absolutely) as being a genocide... -- THOTH 20:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 22:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat - I have been to Turkey 3 times - two for several weeks/month stay and have traveled thorughout the country. I know Turks well and have Turkish friends. My views are likely not typical. However - I must insist that your approach and your position is mistaken. There were massacre and relocation. There are far to many eywitness testimonies - even from allies to Turkey (and Torque response is anti-Turk/Muslim bias - which is silly and a typical tactic - use everything - no matter how divorced from reality). These eyewitnesses recount the systemic and widespread massacre and killing of innocents (and we can also see the results). Relocation was convoys of people who were given no food - to suposedly travel for days and weeks - to some place in the desert (concentration camps and such) where there was no provision but to provide a place for them to die. The only ones who survived this were ones who escaped the relocation convoys and made it on their own. Additionally a great many people were murdered in their homes and villages. The counterclaims of civil war are exaggerated. While there was from specific and limited fighting it was not widespread and in no instance were even these lightly armed convoys disrupted or people rescued. And so on and so forth. Additionally the testimony of the 1919 military tribunals must be accepted as factual. The standards used by these courts became the evidenturary model for Nurenmburg trials (very strict). The Young Turk party had a clear plan to send out murderers and others to take all valuables from the Armenians and to eliminate them. There is a history to this (and reasons for this) that must be examined. There are many side issues and such of interest - but the fundemental truths concerning what occured must be accuratly presented. There are not two "sides" to the truth - though there may be two or more perspectives concerning certain events and why certain things may have occured. The variously stated Turkish assertions have degrees of truth - from totally untruthful and made up to presenting valid perpective. But even the latter does not obviate the truth of genocide against Armenians. And these issues are not what should be centrally presented in a discussion of the Genocide (as they have no place in the Holocaust or Nanking Massacre sections - and I have just reviewed these sections and find the discussions on revisionism and denial interesting and relevant to the discussion here). The Armenian Genocide must be clearly presented for what it was - with surounding issues presented and discused as determined to be relevant. Unfourtunatly - your approach gives equal weight (50-50 you say) to arguments which are untrue, exaggerated, hateful and rascist and so on and so forth. This cannot be a forum to make such things official. In some ways it already has become a sounding board for such views and this is unfortnate. There is a right way and a (many) wrong way(s) to proceed. Your proposed approach will not lead to truth and is inherently flawed. You must understand this. I will likely be unavailable for several days to respond or add further - but I hope that you might use the time to reflect on this. If you wish I may try to suggest an approach and possibly outline how I would present this issue (most important items to focus upon) - but it will not occur before next week. In the meantime give Fadix a chance. He really does have a very good grasp of most of the relevant issues. Take care and please consider my words. -- THOTH 23:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 23:40, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
After reviewing the two pages, I'm going to have to side with the current version. I find that what Fadix labels "vandalism" is far from it and there is a tendancy by Fadix to remove anything which has a negative impact on the Armenian side of the discussion (The removal of references to ANSLA, official Turkish websites etc.).
I should state that I have not read the full discussion (I don't think anyone has time for that), I have simply compared the two versions of the pages as presented with the twoversions tag. Oberiko 08:25, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My conclusions are the following. I believe they will be reviewed objectively and with Coolcat's constructive and responsible efforts, the article will be put in a more neutral shape. I would like to mention the general conclusions I draw from the discussion below. Extensive support for these conclusions can be found in the discussion below. I will also note what I believe needs to be done specifically for each item. I will try to be objective. (As I don't know the gender of anybody, I will use they even while mentioning one person)
You are not the only desicion making body in this article. Your attitude of ignoring the opposition and scaring them away is HIGHLY discouraged.
Last word: I have heard the imprisonement of pro-Armenian intellectuals story from several Armenian sources. There is no agreement on the length of sentence, it ranges from 5 to 20 years. These are very easy and dirty propaganda to hide Turkey's recent friendly approach on the issue. They don't help for a solution, but I suspect the Armenian propagandists care about a solution. -- Cezveci My Talk 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, so after 90 years things have loosened up a little. Find me an example from 10 years ago if you are so proud of the opennes in Turkey. And how about the ones who to this day get into trouble for talking about the genocide - including that group of Turkish teachers last year... you obviously are following the issue, why do you leave these things out? "Caught" indeed. -- RaffiKojian 03:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We are not discussing youir views or my views in Turkish internall affairs regarding the Freedom of Speech, I do not believe Turkey has an opressive policy. I havent seen an evidence of it unless people start talking about how horible Turkey is and why they should seperate from the country. Even countries like the US do not quite allow this, esspecialy not after the Patriot Act. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) It is sensable to ask for you to stop discussing how well or how horrible free speech is promoted, but instead what the article in question. This is a discussion on History NOT politcs.
My recent contributions were deleted by Fadix with accusation of vandalism. Here are my defense of my contribution. I request that the page be reverted to my final version with minor modifications to trim my possibly POV language.
-- Cezveci My Talk 05:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Tony Sidaway's protecting of this article. I don't know whether it's protected on the "correct" version and it doesn't really matter. The disagreements need to be resolved here on this talk page. What's not helpful are personal attack on this page and in edit summaries. I'd like to see the editors of this article list the points they believe are false or POV. Once the points of contention are identified, we can start moving towards consensus. Carbonite | Talk 00:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tony uses of the article to be locked is not what was asked to be peer reviewed, neither what was asked to be mediated, it was all the edits Coolcat was asking for. Let post you the changes and show you how Tony has abused his powers.
“There is an agreement about the occurence of the tragedy. However, there is ongoing debate on two issues, "whether it was a state-sponsored extermination plan, hence genocide" and "whether the tragedy was one sided or the Turks were also massacred by Russian-supported Armenian militia". While Turkey officially denies the occurence of a "genocide", the Armenian theses consistently reject acknowledging the causalities on the Turkish side."
This is not what the debate is about. This was Coolcat claim, it is POV, and is innacurate in what regards the debate.
“Most Armenian, many Western and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and many Western scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two sides, along with famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. Death toll claims range from 200,000 to 1.8 million, and while there is no official international consensus regarding exactly how many Armenians died, most Western sources maintain that at least one million deaths took place. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied case of what is called genocide and often draws comparison with the Holocaust.”
This was what Coolcat wanted the changes to be made, and I have proposed him by presenting a link to an on line library. It is not a “many” Western vs “many” Western. This is just innacurate, most Western academia, against some Western Academia, I have told Coolcat to verify that on the list of an on line library, and have offered even more supports. He then claimed that it is not because from one side there are more works published that it means it is more supported. And anyone in scientific fields know that something should actually be published and be peer reviewed to BE considered.
The Armenian genocide has been changed for “Relocation of Armenians.” I guess for you Tony, this is more neutral right?
Or another change.
“Following Ottoman Empire's entry in WWI, the Imperial Russia has invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and muslim communities were interleaved. Taking advantage of common religion and recent discomfort of the Armenian community in Ottoman Empire, Russia was promoting Armenian nationalism and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. Late in 1914, Russian supported and tranied Armenian militia started treachery and attacking on muslim villages.”
Or what about this change, is that neutral as well?
“There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including Taner Akçam and Halil Berktay. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists, these scholars freely express and publish their opinions in Turkey. However, the Armenian propagandists falsely claim that confirming the so-called genocide is a crime subject to imprisonment in Turkey. Orhan Pamuk, a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the press that he believes that a million Armenians were killed in Turkey.”
And last, not the least, Torque website has been added back, when I have demonstrated that the site contain non existing quotes that were fabricated, as well as a Turkish government website, with documents that are already present in the other websites. Fadix 00:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tony, some things are about opposing views, and some are not. Wikipedia neutral point of view requires some important things which Coolcat refuse to accept. As much space should be left as the ratio in the Academic world between those supporting one theses, and the other.
The entry is called Armenian genocide, and the name in the article has been reverted to “Armenian relocation” are you really expecting us to discuss about that? It is called the Armenian genocide, and the absurdity of the other sides position, is that even if we take the other sides theses, it still qualify as genocide under the UN convention.
Point 2, is what the other side claim, it isn't only POV, but it is the Turkish government POV, while it is mixed with the bunch, without indicating who believes what... something Coolcat was against with from the beginning. I will object on that, and i do believe that it is against NPOV, to mix everything as equal, without indicating who believes what. I have included a “Turkish government” section, but Coolcat deleted it, in fact, Coolcat even deleted the fact that in April 24, Armenian intellectuals were jailed and killed, something that even the other side recognize. Do you really think in those circumstances that it is possible to discuss with someone, that does not only want POV to be introduced, but his OWN POV?
Point 3, The Turkish human right organization report abuses each months, another Turkish human right organization “Info-Turk” even publish each months, and its articles can be accessed on line. The “Armenian claims” and the claim of freedom is simply untrue, when considering the countless numbers of people having been jailed.
Point 4, two websites added, one of those relevant articles are contained in another website already included, the other site, which is claimed to be by Turkish and Western scholars is Torques website, and I have shown clearly fabrications, quotes supposedly coming from works, when the quotes were not in the pages and the works mentioned, other times, a work that do not exist, a fabricated quote etc... copypasted from the newsgroups, and when the originator was a legendary spammer of the 90s. Fadix 01:52, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat, without attacking Fadix, what's your response to this? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I did not object the "intellectuals were jailed and killed" material, I commented out for review, instead of rewriting you reverted it. That was a mistake. I commented out lots of sections that was worded improperly. You dont say "Armenians were murdered" you say "Armenians are killed" this is how we say things on wikipedia. You cannot declare anything that suggests Armenian genocide as "propoganda". It must have a basis. It would not be right for either party of the story, PRO-ANTI genocide, to assume pure innocence, however neither nation should be insulted. An example: "Tratious Armenians" is definately unacceptable. Instead you can say "Armenian Rebelion" or something even more neutral.
Turkish Human Rights Organisation is not an institiution that in anyway is related to the "Armeinan Genocide". Turkey has their own internal problems and this article is not related to turkeys internal problems today. You cannot and should not try to create an aurora of "Evil Turks". Same could be said for the United States, if I recall the a "Black" been beaten to death by "White" cops. This does not mean the goverment supports the incident. As far as I know such "Abuses" is declared illegal in Turkey. Lots of people get jailed in every country, your point? I do not care what "organisation A" claims, I care about what their claims are based on, which evidence?
-- Cool Cat My Talk 04:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I expected you to answer my above answer, but you had nothing to say, but I expected that.
"But let us not forget that he also took in among other creatures, Hyenas, snakes, leeches and scorpions too. I got a hunch that he was not very happy that he had given the Armenians a ride. He is heard afterwards saying the following: "What a mistake have I committed? What a wonderful place this GOD's earth could have been If I had not taken them in with us to be transported to dry lands."
"Those are pretty sad words, Mr. Gasparian, but not mine. Mine would be: "Let even the Armenians live among us. There is still hope that they may be transformed eventually into some acceptable creatures. There is still hope for them even, because look at history! It is replete with primitive mortals who were the most uncivilized, the most cruel, the most boodthirsty people of their times: the "Vikings." Since we can count all Scandinavians, the descendents of the Vikings nowadays amongst the most civilized, most humane, most peaceful members of wordly society of human beings, who knows, Mr. Gasparian, your kind also, one day, will see the light and emulate the Vikings. At least that is my fervent wish for you and for your people."" But you know what? I think I'll leave it to that, unless you want me to post the juicy comments in the site regarding the Armenians? Or the examples of non-existing works and character assassinations against academics? The site is on the limit of legality, if any of those slandered on Torques site were to know his name, Torque would find himself with serious lawsuits.
I am a newbie so please go easy if I make any mistakes. I just want to say I disagree with CoolCats point two. In reference to wording with killing or murdered. The words kill or murder do not have the same meaning. Killin someone does not suggest intent (while it might be there). For example "John killed Tim in a car accident". Murder suggest by definition intent to kill. So murder does not happen by accident. This is why it is a harsher word. Not neccessarily because of the words connoctations but rather because it has a different meaning. It is saying something different. I believe if in fact the usage of murder is factual it should be used as it is a a more descriptive word. It is more desriptive, in the same way as rape is more descriptive than sex. It is basically telling the reader more, the simple act of using the word in a factual situation is not a POV. Also a thing to note is that other articles indeed do use the word murder. Perhaps you should either point out their mistakes or accept the usage of the word murder is ok. Meok 06:26, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes. But the nature of this article requires "politicaly correct terms". It is best to write contraversial articles this way. There is a wing disputing it and there is a wing that want the world to accept it. Kill works for both groups as you can kill by intending it, while it can also be accidental. -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I disagree so do many other articles. To demonstrate that here is a link that shows all the pages that link to the murder article. This shows it is acceptable for use. It shows that it is "politically correct". And as long as it is correct (factually) it should be used. I assume that if you maintain the postion that murder is not "politically correct" you will complain about its use in other articles which also use the term. Meok 10:45, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can we all agree on these facts?
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can we all agree on THESE facts?
-- RaffiKojian 03:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the denial of Holocaust by nationalists is nothing new under the sun. The Germans did it before 1945 and neo-nazi's still do it. The Japanese deny they the fact that they put my grandfather in a concentration camp in Birma, the Turkish government jails writers who describe the Armenian holocaust. In my view, "historical revisionism" is incompatible with the philosophy of Wikipedia!
At the suggestion of another administrator, I have switched the protection template to "twoversions", which includes links to the other version and also the difference between the two. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:58, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a picture for the right version:
Ok, lets take this slow. You are welcome to use my color scheme, if you do so will I.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cool Cat, please drop the color scheme - clearly nobody is interested despite your having brought it up numerous times. I suggest that if you are so keen on "discovering" the facts, which are already well known, you do some serious reading. But short of that (which you do not appear terribly interested in - rather you want to make sure this is not clearly described as a genocide), let us go ahead, and hash out the facts for the gazillionth time, because lord knows, every time someone new hears that there was a genocide and isn't sure whether to believe it, we should all drop everything we are doing and defend the facts from scratch. Sorry about the sarcasm, but this has got to be at least the 20th time I am doing this online. That is why I created the website - so you can go and read materials online, judging the sources yourself, and come to you conclusion. Oh well, I guess that was a waste as well... so back to the basics.
As I asked above, can you agree to THESE facts?
If not, please answer very convincingly why you could still have major doubts about any of these. In fact, if you disagree, then please provide some evidence that they are not true. -- RaffiKojian 03:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ottoman_Armenian_Population More would be added in it, after I complete the entry regarding the Armenian losses. As one can see, every points are supported by footnotes and references, and even Turkish ones. -Unsigned, likely fadix
Who beside the Turks call the genocide theses as "Armenian propaganda." Don't escape it, answer me please. Fadix 23:52, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unless it is one's intention to promote advocacy of largely unsupported revisionism and muddy the truth. Frankly I don't much like either article. I have not much hope at all that there will ever be anything decent here as we can see from the charges and countercharges - there is really no "middle ground" on most of this and any "middle ground" is likely not the truth besides.
Obviously if we are stuck on use of the term "Genocide" - questioning if it is historically accurate/inaccurate - then yes - we have problems. It is only politically controversial - it is otherwise completely accepted. Why is the Armenian Genocide given recognition for/as such at Genocide conferences and when (cross disciplinary) Genocide scholars discuss genocide denial if it is not considered as genocide? And for Coolcat to state "why should we care what scholars think - because they are biased" etc - well - I thought it was Turkey's position to leave the issue to the historians. Well I think the historians have spoken. If we are to take a political position as equivalent to the historical position - well it makes me wonder how other articles in Wikipedia might look with this approach.
And again - what Coolcat is advocating is essentially to let the Holocaust denier have an equal voice to that of legitimate scholars, historians and in the face of accepted truth. I have scanned (read in its entirely actually) the talk pages since I last posted - and what I see is clear advocacy. Coolcat is not objective and this "approach" is a ruse. For one - to refuse to use the term "murder" when this is clearly what has occurred. Again - I find Coolcat's statement - repeated several times –
highly offensive. To suggest that the hundreds of thousands - and yes perhaps/likely million plus innocent human beings - who were brutally
that somehow they were not innocent - that they deserved it....and to accuse one of fanaticism for believing that these innocents were such - well I am offended (he clearly either is completely ignorant or is just hateful, callous and mean) - and I think Armenians are deserving of an apology. If I were to go over to the Holocaust page now - and state that anyone who believes that the Jews were innocent (with the implication that they were deserving of their slaughter) and I think I might do this - and put a link to this discussion page - just what do you think the reaction might be?
Fadix has issued a challenge to all who advocate that Armenians were somehow equal perpetrators against innocent Turks - to prove such - to prove massacres of Turks in 1914 or 1915 on any kind of scale. I even believe that there were isolated instances of such - as there have been sporadic massacres of Armenians by Turks and particularly Kurds, Circassians (Cherkes) and others over the proceeding 50-100 years - and clearly quite disproportionately so. So some misguided Armenian “gangs” did taken retribution upon innocent Turkish citizens – yes – it is clear that this did happen in some places – and my heart grieves for those whose families suffered this senseless violence – but likewise Armenians have regularly been slaughtered by Kurdish bandit chiefs and such - even so - does this justify the terrible crimes that were committed against the Armenian population – such to wipe it out completely? Why were no such steps taken to curb the Kurdish violence against the Armenians if the Ottomans had such a sense of peace and justice?
No – this was different. The Armenians were deliberately killed – and for a number of reasons (and we should examine the wartime conditions and the swing of revolutionary zeal and societal stress – these are all factors certainly to what occurred) – but do not deny what did happen! The article must focus on the plight of the Armenians who were slaughtered if the relevancy of such events is to be portrayed in its rightful truthful manner. This is the overwhelming truth – the reason for this issue – the why we care – and it is as factual and true – unfortunately so – as any known historical event that has occurred on the planet – so we must deal with this – and not hide our heads in the sand and cry that such a thing never occurred. First and foremost this must be acknowledged!
I am not opposed at all for discussing the circumstances and the whys and such – and in fact I have developed a rather comprehensive outline if the approach we finally settle on is one of a complete presentation in all contexts (but I warn this may need to go far beyond just some encyclopedia article to do it justice). However I must emphasize that it is entirely clear that no real body of evidence supports the jist of official Turkish Thesis (and much of what is offered was poor untrue and massively exaggerated propaganda from the time designed to incite violence against Armenians)– and we cannot give credence to unsupported claims that Armenians of this period did such violence against Turks on any truly noticeable or widespread scale (an argument might be able to be made that the Young Turks – knowing how easily they got into power and also seeing the success the other minorities had at breaking away – overreacted – pure and simple…still what was done was done…) – However it is clear that the Ottoman Turks – led by the (by then) xenophobic Young Turk party – planned and committed a deliberate policy of a state slaughter of one of its minority peoples (and actually more then one – as Assyrians and Greeks were killed too) – they employed the state apparatus for massive repression and brutality and they carried it out to its most inhumane and terrible ends.
There can be no rational claim that in any way were Armenians responsible for the kind of mass crimes against humanity as what the Ottoman Armenians experienced at the hand of the Turks – you have no case to present such – it is entirely untrue and it is a travesty of justice blame the victims and to suggest such and it is an affront to all of the innocent victims who were slaughtered and brutalized – lives forever ended – forever altered – survive or persih. To suggest such and then to claim to be an impartial moderator is just an out an out travesty and you sir have really gone too far here! -- THOTH 20:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You should be the one to apologise for the level of insults fadix. Seems like it is necesary for you to destroys peoples credibilty by making them revisionsist/Turkish/whatever. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) Historians apperantly widely accept whatever fadix says. I dont want your analysis, I want the documents' archive numbers in question. Majority doesnt make right. A disputed aricle cannot be truley neutral if it starts neutral. Just because you think something isnt NPOV doesnt make it not NPOV. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) You are taling about things you are claiming things you are not iclined to provide the documents. Is that it? I want to know which selection is from wich archive material. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please avoid personal attacks. I suggest it would be more helpful to discuss the article than to discuss the motives of other editors. Jonathunder 23:02, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)
It's very hard in this format of conversation to find an appropriate place to insert my reply. This reply is to Cool Cat's original post under "Response". -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cool Cat - again you are repeating the same fallacy. Because Neo-Nazis deny the jewish holocaust, does not mean the article should present their side as equal. Also regardless of any "deliberately kill" order, there was a genocide. You apparently have not read Survivors - since you didn't reply affirmatively above. In towns across Anatolia the same things happened. Able men were taken away and largely murdered. Women, children and elderly were told they were being moved, and were walked to the desert being pillaged and murdered and kidnapped and raped along the way. NO PROVISIONS were ever recorded for any of them to eat, be sheltered, or housed at any destination. They were by and large marched towards Der El Zor desert. They were escorted by soldiers who participated in their demise - and often prevented them even from taking care of themselves along the way. These are the simple facts. There IS no dispute that all the Armenians were moved, right? None? On any side? Now then - there is not a single document showing that these violations of the Armenians, by the Turkish soldiers and under their watch were punished. There is no record of any food or shelter actually being provided. No "destination" with any tents or shelters or anything. Not only this - the Armenians weren't even allowed to provide these things for themselves, which many could afford to. This is a death sentence. Since all agree that the Armenians were forcibly removed by the Ottoman government, and unless you can show any evidence that any assistance or protection was provided, and all eyewitness accounts confirm that these people were treated across the Empire in a way which could only be expected to lead to deeath, then it was clearly, undeniably a genocide. Very simple really. The ICTJ study confirms it and so do all the scholars who have not directly recieved financial assistance from the Turkish Govt. -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are you genuinely interested in the truth? Are you ever going to answer these particular points? Can you show anything detailing any food or shelter ever provided to these hundreds of thousands of people being relocated? These are critical points and they show up in my edit of the genocide article. -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope the disputants can stop the bickering and personal insults for a bit. It's sad that these insults are being reproduced faster than I can remove them.
It seems to me that we've got the basics of general agreement on the facts. The Armenians were removed from their homes by force and transported in circumstances that predictably resulted in many deaths, perhaps a million or so. There is no question of this. I am minded to let disputants produce their final words--and don't waste time responding to personal attacks, stick to the subject. When that has been done I will unprotect the page. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 10:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I cannot at all agree that we are anywere close to agreement. This Coolcat character has hijaked this issue and has insured that it will go around and around for ever with no resolution. He disputes the view of historians and genocide scholars and claims that we must include denialist views. This is clearly unacceptable. Could you imagine such being presented on the Holocaust page? This meets every criteria of genocide. This is accepted fact. And there was no Armenian revolt in any sense that Coolcat claims - the evidence supports the opposite - overwhelmingly - that these were innocent populations/people who were killed. To attempt to make this case and insist that unsupported denilaist propoganda claims be given equal weight to commonly accepted acholarship and overwhelming evidence on this matter is clearly unacceptabel - in fact it is an outrage. Until we can get beyond this there is no possibility of resolution here - and this seemingly is what he wants. Fadix has presented more factual and supported information on this matter then I have seen in other genocide and related articles - yet his presentation is essentially shuffled to the side and very ugly racist attacks have been allowed against him and against Armenians. For presentations affirming Genocide Coolcat insists on levels of doscumentation/citation/verification that are in some cases very difficult to get - yet these points are widely known and accepted as the truth. Meanwhile he entertains any counter argument no matter how flimsy and disproven and calls for giving equal time. Again - it is the same as giving Holocaust deniers equal time. I for one will not participate in such an exercise but will continue my valid protests until some sanity can prevail here. I think that Coolcat has already clearly been exposed as biased on this issue. He cannot be allowed to determine the content of this article. And Fadix has provided more then enough effort and evidence to be allowed a free hand to make a proper presentation. -- THOTH 14:48, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Raffi - my changes would be substansial. I'm not certain I would want to introduce such in their entirety without some basic agreements regarding what I might include and the approach I might take. I think it is important that we clearly establish some undisputed facts - such as the use of the term genocide and what we are primarily talking about - the actions taken by the Young Turk controlled government aparatus - against the Armenian population - before preceeding. But yes - I would love to take a cut at this. In fact I have an outline for such - in a sense - however it is 2 pages handwritten! yeah I know...but its intention is for a documentary film I am proposing to produce...(so I may not want to share it all...) -- THOTH 17:27, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK - but have patience. I'm approaching the deadline for tax filing and have some other obligations. My outline is not necessarily 100% appropriate for this presentation - as it is much concerned with the (prior) history - still I'll look it over and see if I can mod it and think what might be appropriate. -- THOTH 13:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(note - I just posted this and it was seemingly deleted in its entirety. if someone is playing games here I suggest that they stop!)
Before it is possible to proceed further to develop this article (that I think basically needs to be redone from scratch) it is clear that certain issues must be resolved and certain facts and definitions agreed upon. First and foremost - of course – we must establish the legitimacy of use of the term "genocide" to describe the primary events we are discussing in the article. (I think Fadix has already more then adequately done so – but as this is – in a sense – a restart – and considering the controversy – I think we need to take this step by step and establish a baseline to provide an agreed upon foundation for the article. So is use of the term “genocide” legitimate. Wikipedia itself has an entry concerning genocide that should be referenced (and in it there are links to source material for such a definition) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
I believe the evidence entirely and most clearly supports the contention that the Armenian people of Anatolia/the Ottoman Empire were subjected to a campaign of genocide and that what resulted from such was in fact genocide. For instance in 1985 the United Nations Economic and Social Council Commission on Human Rights Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities released this following findings: (this is an excerpt with my highlights)
“…the distinguishing characteristics of the twentieth century in evolving the development of genocide "are that it is committed in cold blood by the deliberate fiat of holders of despotic political power, and that the perpetrators of genocide employ all the resources of present-day technology and organization to make their planned massacres systematic and complete". The Nazi aberration has unfortunately not been the only case of genocide in the twentieth century. Among other examples which can be cited as qualifying are the German massacre of Hereros in 1904, the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915-1916, the Ukrainian pogrom of Jews in 1919, the Tutsi massacre of Hutu in Burundi in 1965 and 1972, the Paraguayan massacre of Ache Indians prior to 1974,16 the Khmer Rouge massacre in Kampuchea between 1975 and 1978, and the contemporary Iranian killings of Baha'is.
Additionally (the footnote):
At least 1 million, and possibly well over half of the Armenian population, are reliably estimated to have been killed or death marched by independent authorities and eye-witnesses. This is corroborated by reports in United States, German and British archives and of contemporary diplomats in the Ottoman Empire, including those of its ally Germany. The German Ambassador, Wangenheim, for example, on 7 July 1915 wrote "the government is indeed pursuing its goal of exterminating the Armenian race in the Ottoman Empire" (Wilhelmstrasse archives).”
And:
“The Turks also in 1919-20 held trials: not of ‘war criminals’ but of some of the Ottomans guilty of the Armenian genocide”.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.169/current_category.6/affirmation_detail.html
Based on this statement alone I believe we can justifiably use the term “genocide” to apply to the Armenian case. But of course there are reams of other affirmations of use of this term to apply to this case. One other statement I want to add to illustrate the proper use of the term is the 1995 Resolution by the State Duma of Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation:
Based on irrefutable historic facts which attest to the extermination of Armenians on the territory of Western Armenia from 1915 to 1922 and, in accordance with the following Conventions adopted by the United Nations:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, December 9, 1948;
Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, November 26, 1968;
Aspiring to restore the humanitarian traditions of the Russian State and,
Emphasizing that through the initiative of Russia, the Great European Powers already in 1915 characterized the actions of the Turkish Empire against the Armenian people as a "Crime Against Humanity" and,
Noting that the physical extermination of the fraternal Armenian people in its historic homeland aimed at destroying Russia;
The State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation:
Condemns the perpetrators of the extermination of Armenians from 1915 to 1922;
Expresses its deep sympathy to the Armenian people and recognizes April 24 as a day of remembrance for the victims of the Genocide. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.151/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html
I invite others to comment and to provide other links if it is thought necessary. I think we should come to agreement on use of this term and move on. Once we move beyond this point I think we should perhaps examine and agree upon a basic chronology of the Genocide and then discuss the issue of pre-meditation (proof for such) and perhaps motivation/justification/intent and then we should arrive at an agreement and develop a presentation illustrating the mechanics of how the Genocide was carried out (deportations [including by who/what means – with examples etc] and perhaps introduce the subject of the concentration camps and what they were etc, discuss instances of mass killings [again by who – role of Kurds and such should also be discussed] and methods of killings etc) . We should conclude with the results of the Genocide – depopulation Armenians from Anatolia and discuss numbers of total (and perhaps place specific) deaths. This I propose is the outline of a very basic presentation that I think we can establish as fact. Beyond this there are numerous other issues and events that could and do warrant further in-depth discussion. But I propose that we proceed with the basics - as just outlined – in a step-by-step fashion. Then at some point I think we need to address this whole issue of Turkish counter-charges (legitimate or not) and the issue and history of genocide denial.-- THOTH 17:33, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Again - concerning use of the term "genocide" and why I think the entire article - and specifically the introductory paragraph needs to be completely re-written (there are word, sentence and paragraph structure issues as well). First – Tony Sidaway has presented an argument that he claims everyone agrees on – and I think I can agree that it is agreed to and well proven – that (at a very minimum) the Government of Turkey ordered the “deportation” of Armenians from their homes without any provision to ensure that they were cared for – ie – that the intention (or at least the clear understanding) was that these people were going to die – and for the most part they did – through the rigors of forced march without food or water or from deliberate murder en route. It is also clear that the Turkish authorities emptied all cities, towns, villages and the countryside of Eastern Anatolia – the traditional and acknowledged home of the Armenian people – leaving (resulting in) very few Armenians living/left in these areas. Additionally, with only a few exceptions, the Young Turk controlled Ottoman government “deported” significant portions of Armenians from all other inhabited areas of Anatolia leaving these areas likewise empty of Armenians. Thus – as the accepted definition of genocide clearly includes this concept of removing people from their homes and destroying them as a group – which is what was done. (and what occurred meets the mental element as well as at least 4 of the 5 physical elements – not sure about preventing births)…I think its clear that we can easily call this genocide without (serious) objection) – (here is the excerpt BTW):
The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide: 1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and 2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide." "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:
Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.
Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.
Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.
Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.
--
THOTH 15:49, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What do folks think of the Armenian Genocide - Working Version? -- RaffiKojian 17:35, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't like it on a number of levels. I don't like the way it begins - talking about issues being disputed. (this discussion should be later). A clear presentation of what was done - by whom - affecting who and the aftermath need to be presented. I think more contextual information needs to be listed as well. I also think we need to seperate the actual event(s) with the other controversy surounding (Turkish denial and attempts to get recognition, commemeration etc). In general I find the overall approach and content to be disatisfying. (not that it is all bad - but this is my gut reaction). -- THOTH 17:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well well - a nice diatribe - but that is about all you are aparently good for. Tony Sidaway - a Wikipedia moderator/administrator of some sort has stated that Coolcat would likely not be contributing much to this article as his views are in the minority and are unsubstantiated. I suspect that your position - particularly if it is as aparently misinformed and in line with Turkish denilist propoganda as it seems will fall into a similar category. However I would like to extend the invitation for you to contribute - factually, with support and where appropriate where you deem it necessary to present additional information. Still I would warn you to not attempt to brand me racist or a fanatic - as I am neither - but yes - in fact - I do believe that there is a substansial difference between the truth of this matter and what commonly passes for the official Turkish perspective - which is essentially denial of the truth. I do think that both the common Armenian viewpoints and that of most Turks are missing key aspects of the truth as seen from the other side - however it is likewise clear to me that the common Armenian perspective has much more in common with that of serious scholars on this issue and that this version is far closer to the truth - or at least the most relevant facts that that which is commonly espoused form the Turkish side. And yes - the article - as it currently stands is far too compromised with wishy washy language. What occured should be made clear. The fact of genocide should be clear - the program for carrying such out and the methods - all extensively witnessed and documented - should be accuratly presented. I have yet to see any real (supportable) dispute to the basic contentions of genocide and of the Ottoman campaign of deportation (to death) and massacre as accepted by historians and by observers from the time. I do not dispute that there might be ancillary events that should be presented in a comprehensive manner taking into account the Turkish perspective - however I have yet to see anything that truly disputes the fundemental accepted assertions of genocide and the basic chronology of events and results. Issues of Turks attacked by Armenians and such - while they did occur and were an unfotunate sign of violence of the times - are neither in the same category of crimes (just based on numbers and for other reasons as well) and are not any type of viable justification or counterweight to the fact that over 1 million Armenians were mercilessly slaughtered by the Ottoman Turk state aparatus. I suggest that you attempt to educate yourself just a bit on this issue and not just accept what your government has been preaching to you. I know that it is difficult as you have been taught that a Turk can do no wrong and that everything done was justified or happend to Turks and not by Turks - but just calling us racsist because we are attempting to present the truth is not going to cut it. --
THOTH 20:30, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fadix - I admit that i am still developing an understanding and appreciation of how Wikipedia approaches issues - but I have been reviewing many differnt and diverse entries and their associated talk pages - so I am catching on (and am not entirely ignorant). I have yet to edit any page - only comment here. I am reluctant to edit the current article both nbecause of allthe ongoing and past baggage associated with it and because it is reallylacking in a very many areas (not the only Wikipedia presentation to suffer from this and other shortfalls however). I am adamant about presenting the truth however and I will never be satisfied if this event is whitewashed such as many official genocide (not called such) resolutions often are. ANd you know me from our interaction on other sites in the past - I am one of the more accepting of aspects of the Turkish perspective. I am a known and admitted admirer of Ataturk and a lover of Turks! I have been to Turkey and enjoy its culture and people. I have (several) very good Turkish friends here in the states. I hold no animosity towards Turks whatsoever and I am fair and balanced in my beliefs and approach. Still - I will not ever accept a whitewashing of the truth. -- THOTH 20:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to second Fadix's excellent response to this contention that such an absurd "disclosure" and the suggestion that mention of ASALA has any place in the core of a discussion concerning the Armenian Genocide. It is the fact of the Genocide itself as known and accepted by scholars and international bodies that must be presented not unproven and highly suspect contentions that only support one POV – that of the government of Turkey and certain of its citizens and supporters who have clear agenda/bias and misunderstanding of the truth.
This issue of "disclosure" is patently absurd. Again - if such were considered acceptable as a lead in to the discussion of the Holocaust on Wikipedia then perhaps it might be considered acceptable here - but that of course would be an admission that anyone might dispute known facts and history from whatever questionable and unproven basis - because that is exactly what you propose and its "not worth the ink it is written on".
I think ASALA perhaps merits its own entry or discussion in a section that deals with genocide denial and its response. But ASALA was a group and a phenomenon that existed independently, was not supported by the vast numbers of Armenians nor any other Armenian organizations and it has no direct relevance on the Genocide that was committed in and around 1915 - unless, in fact you acknowledge that the Genocide is perhaps ongoing as continued Turkish denial of such is perpetuation. Even then ASALA needs to be presented in proper context not POV which is what you propose.
As for why Turks killed Armenians that can be easily answered - but should be done in the article itself and IMO it cannot be viewed in isolation but is related to the earlier massacres of Armenians by Turks that occurred in the 1890s and in Adana in 1909 and in relation to the overall political and economic environment and the fall/dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. IMO to properly discuss and present this entire matter the rise of (and ascendancy of hyper Turkish nationalists within) the Committee of Union and Progress (Young Turks) needs to be presented (or at least linked to - with proper relation to the Armenians - and it is already there [in the Wikipedia presentation] in part) and a proper understanding of the entire "Armenian Question" in regards to the Ottoman Empire and its downfall (Fall of Empire, failure of government to adapt to the times, including the corruption, violence, lawlessness etc – as well as the history of break-away of other nationalities (and the influx of Muslim refugees), the dire economic and political straights of the nation [including impact of WWI and relations with the European powers] and the [Turkish] revolution against and fall from power/grace of the Sultan...and why the Sultan earlier chose to suppress and massacre Armenians…and how Turkish nationalism became a force to the detriment of other sects/nationalities within the empire) - all of this should be presented (or at least properly linked to). However the core of the presentation should clearly present the Genocide for what it was with the surrounding events and causative issues presented as they warrant. In the mean time I see little value in your contributions amounting to only calling Armenian's hateful fanatics with no proof of such. What we are trying to present is accurate history. I will give you the benefit of the doubt to not call you hateful - but only ignorant and consumed with nationalist fervor. -- THOTH 15:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
User:Fadix/Ottoman_Armenian_Casualties This is the article I am working on, it is at a very early stage of developpement. It will only concentrate on the casulties figures on this article. More info and the footnotes will be added later. Fadix 03:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This period of protection has gone on much longer than I anticipated, and I'm releasing it for edits because I don't think anything more can be achieved by this process. I will only protect again if you all start being naughty and getting into an edit war again, so behave. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:00, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe in rewiewing facts. I do not care what you were told/taught. I am a scientist, my job is to examine the facts. I would have left this article alone LONG ago if I was not insulted on an edit basis. It had been my experience that if people are not willing to discuss the factuality of their "facts", they are not necesarily "facts". Not all mass number of deaths are defined as "Massacre". I never declared the entier artilce as propoganda, I never acused you of things. Some material looks one sided. I challenge their factuality. I challenge the factuality of all material. If you cant prove it I have no reason to believe in it. I do not care what Historians think, I care about why they think what they think based on what. Do you have a problem with that? It is imposible to discuss this as long as you keep insulting me and any party that joins the conversation. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apperantly Fadix, aside from swearing and screaming came up with a brilliant article. User:Fadix/Ottoman Armenian Casualties. Congrats, we can work like that. Book links are great, web links may be more insightfull. ;) -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:05, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Agree good article on numbers by Fadix - as usual. I've always regarding these type of arguments contesting how many were killed to be somewhat strawmen like - as they really have little bearing or relevance (IMO). The fact that under the cover of war the Young Turks undertook (a successful) campaign to rid Anatolia of Armenians (and other Christians...oh and not just for their wealth BTW - but it was certainly a factor...again many parallels t the Holocaust) - and the results of ethnic cleansing/genocide through deportation and massacre of innocent civilian populations is unchanged - regardless of the numbers. It is still a genocide and a terrible crime against humanity and against the Armenians - regardless.
Fadix and I have both sucessfully debunked the McCarthy figures/claims in the past. The extreme "wand waving" done by McCarthy concerning numbers of Armenians within the various Ottoman provinces via the various seriously flawed "census" counts (or to use the Turkish venacular - "so-called" census counts) is testament to his flawed and biased (again "so-called" scholarship). I do find more worthwhile information in "Death and Exile" - but it is clear he is pitching his agenda of complete Turkish apolegetics and is not interested in truth.
Anyway. I have transcribed about 1/3 of my outline as I would like to present it. While I ussually just write rapidly off the top of my head in these talk pages and on forums - for somethign of this magnitude I am deliberate and try to really think things through. Obviously I will miss much regardless - and I am hoping that my proposed outline will be well recieved and become a basis for a serious presentation of the Armenian Genocide. The current article is neither appropiatly encompassing nor does it empahsise all of what I believe are the key events and key points that should be raised. I also find the current article to somewhat lack context - so much so that I think it would be difficult for the casual reader to truly understand what occured (in part better linkages and references will help). I hope to have something to present sometime this week. I believe it will be worth waiting for to at least consider some of my points even if the group may not decide to abandon the current article and proceed on this new path in its entirety. Thanks for the consideration. -- THOTH 23:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not trying to improve my credibility, on wikipedia everyone has equal level of credibility, however on many ocasions my credibility was disputed on this page which is at best unwiki. I want to hear more "Why historians investigating the matter think what they think based on what?", less "Coolcat is bad.", less "Tony sais so", less "Genocide is fact because I said so". -- Cool Cat My Talk 03:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to remind you to be tolerant of others views, even if you disagree with them. You may well regard the other party's views as being on the fringe. This may even be true, but Wikipedia is aiming for a neutral point of view, not to exclude unconventional views. We are not trying to write a "single correct version of the truth."-- Cool Cat My Talk 03:50, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please respect the right of others to hold their views. This does not mean that you have to agree with me, but just agree to disagree. Discuss the facts and how to express them, NOT the attributes of the other party, in this case me. Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is. Negative personal comments and "I'm better than you" attacks, such as "You have no life." are not welcome. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry, I was quoting Wikipedia:No personal Attacks, you are obligated to folow these. There is no excuse for such attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Please be civil. The article is disputed in its current state. We do not do votes on every disputed article. Creationism is there even though majority perhaps agrees its a complete load of crap. Wikipedia requires facts, this is not your research paper, you cannot and shouldnot try to prove the Armenian Genocide here, it is disputed, something you do not acknowlege. Admins do not interfere with articles, any admin will tell you constantly reverting the article is not the right way. I was reminded of this flaw by steriotek, rather harsh I think given he is not any better than I am as reverting goes. -- Cool Cat My Talk 10:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that this article needs to look a whole lot more like this article on the Armenian Genocide which, you'll note, is a fork of an earlier version of this article. — Davenbelle 09:40, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
I visited the discussion page to read some interesting views. All I see are childish comments between a few users more about THEIR credibility than the credibility of the information presented. All you do here is create a garbage of information. I have to lower myself to say this but I think it is the only way it will make sense to you: Get a life.
Each of you present your views and facts and let others make their own judgements. You have to assume that the individuals reading these are interested in the subject and will try to get the best of what they read. - (unsigned) Rotband
...So if you take a step back, try to imagine a genocide victim being subjected to this day after day, year after year, perhaps you'd appreciate better some of the anger and impatience that has been displayed. Again, I tell you GO TO THE LIBRARY - read Survivors, read Hovanissian and Dadrian, I even encourage you to read books like Fiegl's Myth of Terror. After that, you can come back and edit the article like a pro. But before that, you really need to take it a bit easy... --RaffiKojian 03:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Like I said, armenians have their reasons for their beliefs so does the turks. A uniformal truth should satisfy both. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Agree (with Gvorl) - as anyone who truly understands what occured in 1915 - and before and after - in regards to this issue could never (honestly) say the things that Coolcat does. Obvioulsly most Turks and Armenians are not going to agree on the issue at this point in time. They do nto agree out in the real world - how can you expect that they will agree here? Obvioulsy - you will never convince any Armenian (nor any proper knowledgable historian) that there was no Genocide. (and we have proved that there was by a very clear margin - so I can see no real denbate on this issue) - but - I can neither see most Turks (or Coolcat) every admitting to Genocide. So where does this leave us by the seemingly/alleged unbiased Coolcat approach? With no solution - with no Armenian Genocide article - curious isnt't it? -- THOTH 18:09, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with everybody but Cool Cat that Cool Cat has contributed nothing to this article at all. Has not shown any knowledge of the subject. Has inserted opinion which he says he has not formed yet. Has stated he was lying that he has little real knowlege of the subject (without proving any such thing). Twisted my words when I say he should read up on the subject. So all he has done (assuming it is a he - but he prefers to remain completely anonymous) is create a MASSIVE obstacle to progress on the article, waste all of our time, and make a joke of wikipedia. Can we just ignore him? I mean, if someone wants to argue facts here, that is one thing, but this whole "You have to convince me the Turks had a logical, sane reason to wipe out the Armenians or I can't believe it was genocide" at this point in the conversation is so ridiculous, we can't actually be expected to respond. It is almost like someone is playing a joke on us all. So again I ask. Can we just ignore this thing called Cool Cat until he possibly has something meaningful to contribute? --
RaffiKojian 04:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hm - I don't dispute that this "arabia" claim is in error - the exact quotes from the CUP leaders directly mention the Central Asian Turkick lands - even to include the Uigyurs who live in China. However this motivation was only one of many for "removing the Armenian problem" - and hard to prove if the average Turk who participated or took advantage of the slaughter of Armenians was truly motivated by such. As for the Armenian Genocide being an inspiration for Hitler - well there are several sources of his mentioning such as well as a great deal of circumstansial evidence considering the role of his advisor Count Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter - German Vice-Consul at Erzerum (who by the way had this to say about the matter):
"I have conducted a series of conversations with competent and influential Turkish personalities, and these are my impressions: A large segment of the Ittihadist Young Turk party maintains the viewpoint that the Turkish empire should be based only on the principle of Islam and Pan-Turkism. Its non-Muslim and non-Turkish inhabitants should either be forcibly islamized, or otherwise they ought to be DESTROYED. These gentlemen believe that the time is propitious for the realization of this PLAN. The first item on this agenda concerns the LIQUIDATION OF THE ARMENIANS. Ittihad will dangle before the eyes of the allies the specter of an ALLEGED REVOLUTION prepared by the Armenian Dashnak party. Moreover. local incidents of social unrest and acts of Armenian self-defense will deliberately be provoked and inflated and will be used as pretexts to effect the deportations. Once en route however, the convoys will be attacked and EXTERMINATED by brigands, and in part by gendarmes, who will be instigated for that purpose by Ittihad."
curious isn't it - that he was so perceptive - that the CUP had such a plan...and that so much of what the Nazi's attempted some 30 years later bore so much similarilty....-- THOTH 16:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Don't preach to me. I know the history - a good deal better then you I think. I have not written this article. It is much too soft IMO - among other shortfalls. My having many Turkish friends has no bearing on presenting the truth here. You have spent the better part of a paragraph saying nothing and putting words in my mouth. Your depiction of Turkey as the victim is very typical. Funny that it was the Turks who began the aggression. The British would have been most happy - and made many attempts to convince the Turks to not go with the Germans - yes it was the greed of Enver and the others that won out in the end - the idea that the Germans would win and thus The Ottoman Empire could once again be great and vast (but this time Turkish and not multi-cultural). Its only lucky that the Brits and French and even the Russians had their hands full elsewhere and with other things. Its no coincidence theat Lennin was bankrolled by the Germans. And as valiant as the Ottoman armies did fight at times - these were clearly just skirmishes in the grand scheme of things. There was no possibility that the Ottoman Empire would come out of this one much of anything like it came into it (the CUP were stupid fools - and it is they who are to blame for not only the terrible Armenian suffering but the Turkish suffering as well...and you are a [fooled] fool if you believe otherwise) - and Ataturk and the Turks are certainly deserving of much credit for salvaging and leveraging what they got - Anatolia - free of all capitulations....of course without the Armenians - and that was certainly by design (but your nation suffers still - much - from this shortsightedness). So squirm away - you cannot use your critique of a poorly written article to supress the truth. Yeah funny - the Turks being so weak - yet no caravan was ever intercepted - no rescue ever made - some Armenian resistance eh? -- THOTH 07:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat - I have no concern if you stay - but I am concerned - as I have well expressed and explained - that your approach is not at all condusive to reaching the truth in this case. I agree that the current article is severly lacking and is somewhat unfocused. I wish I had the time to write the whole thing but I really don't - at least not in quick order. I am hopng to have my proposed outline available today or tomorow however. I want to comment though that your characterizing the known historical and (mulitply independently coroborated and objective) eyewitness record as "stories" and "legends" only bespeaks your ignornace (or agenda). Anyway - I can and will very much so - adress this issue of why the Turks/CUP undertook genocide. -- THOTH 16:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I JUSTIFIED EVERY CHANGES WITH OVER 100 PAGES OF ANSWERS AT FADIX ANALYSIS SECTION ALONE, EXCLUDING THOSE IN THE ARCHIVES AND THE TALK PAGE. THERE IS NO PROPAGANDA OR POV IN WHAT I WROTE, IF THERE IS ANY POV SHOW ME WHERE. YOU CAN NOT JUST REVERT AN ARTICLE WITHOUT EVEN JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. MY ARTICLE IS SUPPORTED WITH WIKIPEDIA FRENCH ENTRY WHICH HAS BEEN MODERATED BY AN ADMINISTRATOR. I CAME HERE TO POST THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM ARMENIAN GENOCIDE BOOK LIST LINK, AND I REALISE THAT COOLCAT HAS EDITED AND REVERTED BACK THE GENOCIDE ENTRY, THE SAME THAT WANTED TO MODERATE THIS ENTRY. NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY HE WANT TO DO SO.
IT IS SAID THAT THERE SHOULD BE DISCUSSION BEFORE MAKING CHANGES, I ANSWERED AND JUSTIFIED WITH ABOUT 160 PAGES, I CAN CONFIRM EVERY CHANGES WITH REFERENCES AND LISTS OF OVER A HUNDRED WORK AND HUNDREDS OF ESSAYS... I HAVE READ WIKIEPDIA "NEUTRAL" INTERPRETATION, I HAVE USED UNIVERSALIS, THE LARGEST FRENCH ENCYCLOPEDIA "TONE" TO COVER THE GENOCIDE, AND HAVE VIEWED THE OTHER WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES.
GO MODERATE OTHER TURKISH BOARDS AND LEAVE US BREATH HERE, IF YOU ARE A GENOCIDE APPOLOGIST I DON'T GIVE A S.T, IF YOU'RE HERE TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE GO AHEAD. BBUUUUTTT STOP REVERTING BACK, WHEN MY EDITION WAS THE RESULT OF 160 PAGES LONG OF ANSWER. THIS IS DISRESPECTABLE.
I WILL REVERT IT BACK... AND DO IT UNTIL YOU STOP IT. WHAT IS THE FARCE WITH WIKIPEDIA, THERE IS ONE AZERIS FANATIC AT THE KARABAGH PAGE, JUMPING ON ME RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST ANSWER. IS THERE NO ONE MODERATING WIKIPEDIA????? -- Fadix
I will revert it back. What I present is NOT propaganda neither POV. So STOP IT!!! Fadix 20:44, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) So you mean everybody agrees there had been an armenian genocide and the Turkish Goverment and scholars agreed on the issue. Hence this is no longer a dispute? You mean that a considerable amount of scholars do not disagree with the claim? You present the Armenian POV I believe the Turkish claims were different judjing by the history. You cannot expect to toss away 160 pages worth of data and we mods to read it. you are obligated to explain wht you removed every paragraph ONE BY ONE. All changes one by one. I am getting assistance for this matter with fellow admins. Like it or not this article is full of POV. The sources you provide are still the Armanian POV and Armanian statistics. The documents, as far as anyone is concerned could have been forged. You are not following the NPOV article att all. You are making claims while deleting the oposing views completely as if no one oposes the dispute. You even removed the warning. This is at best Armanian propoganda. I dont like revert wars, as those mods act like infants. Since you will not even listen to my arguments, I have nothing to say to you for now. This article is based on either your or somebodyelses POV. Definately not NPOV. You can fool yourself as much as you like. I can toss you lots of juice I dont know 500 pages if I feel like rambling on and on... This article itself is a POV -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
By the way thank you for your report regarding the NPOV policy violations on diferent languages of wikipedia, I'll see into it when I have time. I am more concerned with my calculus exam at the moment. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:49, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is not because few disagree about something that it means there is a dispute. Again, the majority in Islamic countries deny the Shoah did happen, still I don't see any note about disputes on its entry. And no, there are no considerable amount of scholars who deny the Armenian genocide. Take off Turkish diplomatic works(Gurun, Ataov etc...) and those working in Ottoman departments founded and funded by Turkey(its like using the words of an Armenologist), there is not much any scholars that deny it did happen. There is a clear disproportion between those recognizing it and those denying it. Even though the Ottoman Empire was an Islamic regime, outside of Turkey, there is more Muslim denying the Shoah than the Armenian genocide.
Beside that, I do see here that you have a star, I don't know how people are nominated, but I think that by using such terms as “Armenian propaganda” is very disrespect able from your part. I don't see how going after all of the entries remotely implicating Turkey and throwing your biases in them you are really contributing here. And the 160 pages were not just toss away, they were answers to Torque posts, they are part of the discussion and not only a load of data.
Another note, there is no such warning in the other language entries, the German and French take my position, and from what I understood of Spanish, as well....
There are changes I may do in the article I posted(like providing the sources for the statistics), and I am ready that people contribute in it, but I expect people to support their changes as I have done here... and as well, it is logical that as much place it should be given as there are specialists supporting the claims.
Here is why I removed them.--Fadix
The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportation and murder of Armenians by the Young Turks government in 1915- 1916.
The Armenian Genocide is not agreed to by everyone; the term "genocide" generally defines a state-sponsored extermination plan but it is the position of Turkey and some academics that the majority of losses were a result of clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans. Armenians and other academics state at least 1.5 million Armenians perished in Turkey. France is among the countries which have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide..
One of the prime sources of information regarding the Armenian Genocide was Henry Morgenthau, U.S. Ambassador to Turkey from 1913-1916. Ambassador Morgenthau published a book in 1919 entitled Ambassador Morgenthau's Story which details the atrocities committed against the Armenians by the Turks. Others state that Morgenthau was not a neutral observer, anxious to get the United States into war, and primed by Armenian assistants; frequently cited as an "eyewitness", having "never left Istanbul", and revealing his bias with statements describing the Turks as "inarticulate, ignorant, and poverty-ridden slaves", "barbarous", "brutal", "ragged and unkempt", (within his book) and as having "inferior blood".
In 1890 there were possibly around 1.3 to 1.7 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, of whom the vast majority were of the Armenian Orthodox or Roman Catholic Christian faith. Until late 19th century, the Armenians were called "millet-i sadika" (fidel nation) by the Ottomans, as they were living in harmony with the Muslim Kurds and Turks in Eastern Anatolia, without any major conflict with the central authority despite religious and ethnic differences, and despite second class citizen status on the law books and in practice as "infidels". While the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia was large and clustered, there was also a considerably large community of Armenians on the west, mostly living in the capital city of Istanbul, of which a substantial community remains to this day, as it was the communities in Anatolia proper that were subjected to the deportation orders and massacres .
On August 26, 1896, a group of Armenian revolutionaries raided the headquarters of the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul after having shot the guards and seized more than 140 staff members, in an attempt to gain international attention to the plight of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Mobs of Muslim Turks then massacred tens or hundreds of thousands of Armenians. It is alleged by some that 50,000 Armenians were killed, and that there was a level of Ottoman government involvement with the mobs.
Armenian-sympathizing estimates of the total killed run from 100,000 to 300,000; one of the greatest pro-Armenians, Johannes Lepsius, estimated less than 89,000. Turkish estimates run from 20,000 to 30,000. These events are recalled by the Armenians as the "Great Massacres" and believe the Hamidian measures verified the capacity of the Turkish state to carry out a systematic policy of murder and plunder against a minority population. The formation of Armenian revolutionary groups began roughly around the end of the Russo-Turkish War of 1878. As some diplomats observed, the aim of these groups were to commit massacres so as to incite counter-measures, and to invite "foreign powers to intervene," as Istanbul's British Ambassador Sir Philip Currie observed in March 1894.
Before World War I the Ottoman Empire came under the Young Turks government. At first some Armenian political organizations supported the Young Turks in hopes that there would be a real change from Abdul Hamid's policies towards the Armenian population. There were Armenians elected to the Ottoman Parliament, where some remained throughout the ensuing world war. However they were later to be disappointed. The Young Turks feared the Armenian community, which they had believed was more sympathetic to allied powers (specifically Russia) than to the Ottoman Empire.
In 1914 Ottomans passed a new law that required all adult males up to age 45, to either be recruited in the Ottoman army or pay special fees in order to be excluded from service. Most of the Armenian recruits were later turned into road laborers and some were executed.
On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government executed 300 Armenian intellectuals, although a partisan source as Peter Balakian's "The Burning Tigris" tells us most were imprisoned and there were even survivors.
The fact that most Armenian men were also butchered in the army and many influential figures arrested and killed, places a question mark over certain arguments that Armenians organized revolts and that there was a civil war, given that Armenians were outnumbered, outmanned and outgunned. On the other hand, there were articles in the New York Times as early as November 7, 1914, days after Russia had declared war, attesting to Armenian uprisings ("ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS -- Besieging Van—Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear"), and accounts from Armenians themselves,
such as Boghos Nubar's 1919 letter in the Times of London stressing Armenian belligerence. In addition, there is evidence of Russian financial support (242,900 rubles, according to the Dashnak Party Military Minister, Armenian National Congress meeting in Tbilisi, Feb. 1915),
testimony from even those such as Ambassador Henry Morgenthau to the effect of "...In the early part of 1915... every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense,"
and even accounts from Armenian newspapers hailing the rebellion.
Taking advantage of the wide-spread war, which left Eastern Anatolia defenseless, these armed Armenian "comita"s, organized and supported by Russia and Russian-Armenians, have massacred Turkish and Kurdish villagers throughout Eastern Anatolia.
Chronology here is important and not incontestably established. Regardless of the chronology above, when the deportation orders were issued to Armenian villagers across Anatolia, the vast majority obediently followed orders, even when near certain death was obvious.
After the recruitment of most men and the arrests of certain intellectuals, widespread massacres were taking place throughout Ottoman Empire. This should not be taken as the victims of these massacres were only the christian minorities, though. Starting with the spread of nationalism in early 1800's, for the sake of building purified nations, many turks (non-arabic muslims of Ottoman Empire) were exiled, deported and massacred by newly-independent Balkan nations such as Greece, Bulgaria and imperial Russia throughout the century. In desperate attempts at survival, upon hearing of massacres of nearby villages, Armenians in Musa Dagh and Van organized their self defense. In Van, they handed over control of the city to advancing Russians. The Ottoman government ordered the deportation of over 1 million Armenians living in Anatolia to Syria and Mesopotamia though this figure has not been conclusively established. Indeed, there is another consensus this number did not exceed 700,000,
and Arnold Toynbee reported in his Wellington House (British propaganda division) report of "The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" that 500,000 were alive in 1916.
Although the word deportation seems pretty innocent (some would prefer the word "relocation," as the former means banishment outside a country's borders; Japanese-Americans, for example, were not "deported" during WWII), things were not, because the deportations themselves were a silent method of mass execution that led to the death of many of the Armenian population, by forcing them to march endlessly through desert, without food or water or enough protection from local Kurdish or Turkish bandits.
In the process several hundred thousand died in the resulting death marches from starvation, dehydration, disease or exhaustion. Several hundred thousands more were massacred by Kurdish militia and Ottoman gendarmes, giving an estimated total under certain counts of 1,500,000 Armenians dead. Then again, the Armenians contend one million survived, and even the Patriarch Ormanian provided a pre-war population figure of 1,579,000.
Mr. Hovhannes Katchaznouni, first Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, describes this part of history as follows in his 1923 Manifesto: "At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and especially with much uproar... The Armenian Revolutionary Federation had active participation in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey... In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer band organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from fighting. This was an inevitable result of psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation; that mentality should have found its expression and did so....The Winter of 1914 and Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all Armenians in the Caucasus including of course the Dashnaktsutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered and its Armenian population would be liberated. We had embraced Russia wholeheartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. "
Statistics regarding the number of Armenians living in Ottoman Anatolia and the number killed are disputed. The lowest numbers are given by Turkish sources and the highest by Armenian sources.
In 1896 the Ottoman government recorded 1,144,000 Armenians living in Anatolia. Professor Justin McCarthy, U.S. historian and expert in Ottoman history, whose books are published by a Turkish organization as well as prestigious university presses such as the Oxford University Press, estimated that there were 1,500,000 Armenians in Anatolia in 1912. According to the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, there were between 1,845,000 and 2,100,000 Armenians in Anatolia in 1914. Estimates range from 1,000,000 given by some Turkish sources to more than 3,500,000 given by some Armenian sources. Arnold J. Toynbee, who served as an intelligence officer during World War I, estimates there were 1,800,000 Armenians living in Anatolia in 1914. Encyclopædia Britannica took 1,750,000 Armenians living in Anatolia as their estimate, in certain later editions. In 1911, the encyclopedia had figured 1.1 million, and Toynbee estimated less than one million in his 1915 book, "Nationalism and the War," before his services were enlisted in Wellington House.
Estimates for the numbers of Armenians who died during the Second Massacre vary even more. Some Turkish sources claim that 200,000 Armenians died, whereas some Armenian sources number the dead at well over 2,000,000. Talat Pasha, a prominent Young Turk and Grand Vizier from 1917-1918, claimed that the total was 300,000. Toynbee put the number at 600,000 in his 1916 "Treatment" propaganda report. McCarthy independently arrived at the same figure.
Armenians and others around the world recognize April 24 as marking the start of genocide at the hands of the Young Turks.
Some Turkish historians and foreign Ottoman history scholars deny that an event classifiable as state-organised genocide occurred, claiming a lack of evidence pointing Ottoman state involvement. Their claim is that the Armenian deaths resulted from armed conflict, civil war, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I, when Armenian citizens of Ottoman Empire joined Russian armies to invade eastern provinces of Ottoman Empire. In the same period, 2.5 million other Ottoman citizens have perished as a result of civil-war and disease.
This is a controversial topic and both the Turkish and the Armenian claims are posted below. If you want to add something please be neutral
The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the claim of the Armenian government and some scholars as deportation and murder of Armenians by the Young Turks government in 1915-1916. The claim is currently a dispute between Turkey and Armenia.
Scholars are divided between two general views, one general view is that there was a state-sponsored extermination plan, while the other general view losses were a result of clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans. The statistics regarding how many Armaniens perished varies and there are no official numbers.
The exact number of Armenians killed by the Ittihadist regime is still subject to further research. German and Austrian documents record the the total may be over a million. The official Ottoman records of 800,000 killed suggest as well that the total death toll reach in the million and over.
Sources for one point of view
“On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government executed hundreds Armenian intellectuals”
Several hundred thousands more had perrised. One point of view suggests Kurdish militia and Ottoman gendarmes were responsible while the other point of view siggests war, famine and other factors were responsible. The exact number of Armenians killed by the Ittihadist regime is still subject to further research. German and Austrian documents record the the total may be over a million. The official Ottoman records of fatlities stand at 800,000. Both parties dispute the statistics so the acatual number of fatalities could be much less or could be in the the million or more.
Now the mediator, like the ICTJ, no doubt has been exposed primarily to this propaganda, an "avalanche" of which is available in the West. I urge the mediator to read Gurun's book, and to look at this topic with an open mind. And I want to remind the mediator that Fadix has exposed himself to have Zero Credibility time and again. When one only presents an exclusive side, overlooking the rest, one's credibility dissipates.
One need look strictly at the Ottoman records to see how Armenians suffered immensely. There were many innocent Armenians among the 700,000 uprooted, and how awful it must have been to give up one's home and go to places unknown, under the command of those who didn't always have their best interest at heart. It's time the Armenians acknowledge the ones who put them in this harmful position were their fanatical leaders, when "Prudence was thrown to the winds," as K. S. Papazian wrote.
The whole idea behind genocide, notwithstanding silly definitions by the ICTJ where only one person needs to be killed, involves a systematic extermination plan, with the idea of killing off everyone. Were there Ottomans intending to exterminate the Armenians? The answer is: if the idea was to exterminate, a million couldn't have survived. But there were definitely those with murder on their minds.
But who were these Ottomans? They were NOT Talat, Enver, and Jemal. The real Ottoman orders safeguarded Armenian lives and property. In other words, there is no single shred of evidence tying in the central government to this great alleged crime.
This is why we must look at the BIG PICTURE. The Armenians rebelled. Posing too great a threat to the desperate nation engaged in a life or death struggle, they got relocated. Unfortunately, things went awry. There was a deep shortage of manpower and resources, and the huge task of transporting and relocating hundreds of thousands was compounded by locals who were corrupt, opportunistic and revengeful. (But what's forgotten are those who did their job properly; some gendarmes died defending Armenians from attack, and Morgenthau got direct word from an Armenian representative that 500,000 were carrying on well with their lives in September of 1915. Since he was another weasel, he didn't report this diary entry in his book.)
Let's compare with a recent operation conducted by the world's superpower, the USA. The USA didn't have any "time pressure" to war in Iraq, since Iraq wasn't threatening to invade America. The USA had all the time in the world to make sure everything went right. We are all aware how wrong things went. While there's a news block-out (a lesson learned from the Vietnam War), the public had a chance to see the agony inflicted upon Iraqi civilians through, for example, FAHRENHEIT 9/11. We are aware video game-playing or nervous American soldiers can be trigger-happy. We know, because of poor planning, cultural rape occurred when the Iraqi museum got looted. How do you think American soldiers would behave, let alone American civilians, if Ameria were on her knees with powers threatening every front, and a traitorous minority begins massacring fellow Americans, in exchange for promises of a new homeland? Don't you think at least some of them would avenge their massacred children and spouses?
The idea was to make sure the Armenians in each town composed no greater a number than 10%. This is why the fact that we are told the Armenians were marched off into the desert to die is another myth. The fact is, Armenians were dispersed within the Anatolian heartland, as well.... from Ankara to Konya, let's say. These are all in the Ottoman archives. Downright stupid decisions were made when villages Armenians were dispersed to were Kurdish villages. That was the end of these Armenians. Were they purposely sent to these villages because of "extermination" goals? That's a matter of speculation. Perhaps the official thought "we were all Ottomans," and nothing would happen to those Armenians.
There are even genuine telegrams indicating Talat Pasha was aware soldiers killed Armenians. The question: did these soldiers get orders from the top?
Let's go back to Iraq. Not long ago, an American soldier was sentenced to 12 or 15 years for tortures committed at the Abu Gharib prison. (Let's bear in mind Ottomans were tried and punished DURING the war for crimes against Armenians, some to the extent of execution.) The American said he was following orders. Of course; some local commander gave this soldier the thumbs up. But did these orders extend up to President Bush, the counterpart of "Talat Pasha"? (We don't know, because there's no proof. We can't blame Bush for deliberately giving such orders. Unless the evidence surfaces, or unless an Andonian comes up with forgeries.)
We know there were many more soldiers involved in Iraqi war crimes than the handful charged/tried, but only these few were scapegoated. Why? Because if there's a full-scale effort to find and punish every guilty party, morale on the home front would plunge. Compound that in a situation where a nation is battling for her very life. The fact that any Ottomans were punished at all, given their desperate situation, says a lot.
An important document bearing witness to "no genocide" is one written by Enver to Talat on May 2, 1915. This was after the last of the Van rebellions (until that time) and rebellions in other cities, followed by the April 24 order to arrest Armenian ringleaders. (All murdered on the same day, according to most Armenian propagandistic sources.) Enver notes the Armenian insurrection in Van, and the Russians' traditional method of expulsion of Muslims from lands they had conquered. (He writes, "Muslims within their borders," actually. So perhaps these were their own Muslims kicked out, to further strain the limited resources of the Ottomans who had to take care of them, and to use the war opportunity to get rid of an unreliable Muslim population. This expulsion took place on April 20.)
"In order to respond to this, as well as to reach the goal (of destroying the rebellion's nest)..., it is necessary to either send these Armenians and their families to Russia, or to disperse them within Anatolia. I request that the most suitable of these two alternatives be chosen and carried out. If there is no inconvenience I would prefer that the families of the rebels and the population of the region in rebellion are sent outside our borders and that the Muslim community brought into our borders from abroad are relocated to their place."
Enver opted for expulsing his country's traitorous Christians, just like Russia had been doing with her innocent Muslims. Sounds fair, doesn't it?
Note there is no thought of extermination, because of pan-Turanism, or because Muslims hate Christians, or the other phony reasons Armenian propaganda tells us served as the motive for genocide. Just boot them into the hands of their precious Russians! Why spend the milliions of dollars to relocate, and why divert precious resources and manpower on a relocating attempt within their own country?
Ironically (given the "genocide" charge), the Ottoman government chose the more HUMANITARIAN route. Yes, things went wrong. But the intentions were good.
I would like to request, regardless of how the article is finally presented, to remove the word "genocide" from the title. Another partisan had started a page at Wikipedia, pointing to the equally phony Pontus Greek "genocide" as the "Greek Holocausf" at Wikipedia. This name was justly changed. Similarly, we should only hold truth as our parameter, within this page.
And please keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. Not the dizzying array of confusing weasel facts Fadix is sure to present from his propaganda "avalanche," all amounting to "Joe said..." Honorable people don't resort to hearsay in the charge of a crime, particularly this great crime. When the British turned honorable, they ignored all the "avalanche" of hearsay and forgeries, and freed all the Turks at Malta because there was simply no reliable evidence to be found.
Raffi may be excused somewhat for perpetuating his propaganda, because he has only studied one side of his story, and has a "religious" bent. I don't know how Fadix can live with himself, as he has scrutinized this historic episode inside out. He is determined to support his agenda, regardless of the genuine facts. This is why Fadix, the Super Armenian Weasel Beast, has ZERO CREDIBILITY.-- Torque March 1, 2005
What the heck is this? What gives any editor the right to pre-judge what other editors do on a page? Rick K 06:35, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
Let answer Mr. Torque yet again.
Raffi proudly exclaimed that he knows this subject "VERY well," yet it has become apparent he doesn't know that much at all... especially if he makes comments not steeped in reality, such as there was no Armenian rebellion.
Like 99% of Armenians, he is only content in studying what his deceptive Armenian professors and the hypocritical genocide scholars tell him... of which there is an "avalanche" of propagandistic information out there, since the Turks are not a "speak up" kind of people traditionally, and current ones don't have the motivation to bone up on this topic. (Even if they do, this one-sided "avalanche" is so firmly entrenched in the West, they would not be playing on an equal playing field.)
Raffi has admitted he hasn't read Sam Weems' "Armenia," even though he has felt free to knock it down, and I have no doubt he has also not come near Gurun's "The Armenian File - The Myth of Innocence Exposed," even though he knocked that one down as well. This is the job of Armenians: to knock down anything that debunks their big genocidal con job, regardless of the source, and of the truth.
Raffi has demonstrated he has an aversion to truth. One example was his referring to me as a "pro-Turkish govt positionee," even though he has no idea of who I am. But a perfect example of how the Armenian strategy works is to overlook the forest, and single out the sole tree that supports their genocide. Raffi did this with our ICTJ exchange. Once again, the ICTJ is a body of lawyers (not historians) who decreed the Armenians' experience was a genocide... and the Armenians must latch on to this, as they have no other judicial proof.
In typical Armenian style,
we are asked to examine the surface; but if we dig deeper, we learn the ICTJ primarily used the "avalanche" of Armenian propaganda to make their determination, and that their definition of genocide is that only one person needs to be killed... so that the murder of Talat Pasha by Soghoman Tehlirian can be called a genocide, rendering the word meaningless.
As rebuttal, I attached Justin McCarthy's views, where at one point he wrote the 1948 Convention is watered down enough to have the Armenians' experience called a genocide.
Forget the fact that even with the 1948 Convention's broad definition, the Armenians' story still doesn't fit, as "intent" has yet to be proven, and the convention exempts political alliances; Raffi completely disregarded McCarthy's main point, which is what happened to the Muslims at the hands of the Armenians would then also be termed a genocide. All Raffi was interested in was the one statement that was helpful, and pretended the rest did not exist. An honest person seeking the truth does not operate in this fashion.
Fadix has done what few Armenians have done; he has throughly studied this topic, making use of the limitless knowledge base of propaganda organizations like Vahakn Dadrian's Zoryan Institute. He follows in the footsteps of the slimy Dadrian, whose job it has been to try and discredit the real historical picture with the "avalanche" of selective "facts" the Armenian propaganda industry has had the luxury having produced for over a century.
There have been a host of influential Western people who have been taken in by this hogwash, aided by the fact that the "Terrible Turk" has been looked upon as outcasts of humanity ever since the Crusades. It's not difficult to find seemingly legitimate people who have been suckered in to the Armenian madness. As latter-day examples, we have Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan adding their voices to the genocide bandwagon on Raffi's quotes page. But there certainly is no shortage of duped/prejudiced Westerners from the "genocide days" that Fadix makes extensive use of.... not excluding the (WWI allies) Germans and Austrians who were the enemies of the Ottoman Turks for centuries, and not all would be able to shake their feelings of animosity. How easy it was for them to accept the sob stories of the Armenians and the missionaries, as well.
This is why I say Fadix has zero credibility. He knows the other side of the story. When he comes across evidence from sources with no conflict-of-interest (indeed, Western sources are primarily anti-Turkish, and those who would refute his genocide would have no reason to lie), does he stop and say, Wait a minute... maybe there is something to this. No. His first instinct, in typical Armenian fashion, is to think, How can I discredit this?
One of Fadix's many methods of putting up smokescreens (and to try and discredit me) is to claim I am "racist." This is ironic, because it has been documented (and hopefully it's not as true for current generations, but reading Armenian forums, I wonder) that Armenians have been bred to hate Turks. By contrast, the Turks deliberately didn't dwell on the past ills and shoved the 518,000 Muslims (the Armenians murdered) under the rug, stressing love and brotherhood.
What is said in those testimonies is not different than what was said regarding the Germans in World War II, after witnessing the German horrors of the war. Raffi is simply presenting the words of people being horrified. But of course you have no problem posting materials describing Armenians as worst in your own web-site. As for the Armenians being lovely people, comments like this won't undo your racist views.
June 16, 1880, Lt.-Col. C.W. Wilson, British Consul General for Anatolia described the Armenians as "immoral, fanatic, bigoted," and that "truth and honesty are sadly deficient."
Harold Armstrong, 1925: "argumentative, quarrelsome, and great know-it-alls." The Armenians are "crafty, grasping, secretive, acquisitive and dishonest, making a great pretence of religion, but using it as a cloak for treachery and greed."
Sept. 30, 1908, British vice-counsel Capt. Dickson: "unsympathetic, mean, cringing, unscrupulous, lying, thieving... endowed with a sneak thief sharpness."
WOW! What better way to describe "Zero Credibility" Fadix? Especially with that "sneak thief sharpness"! The above described qualities are unfortunately not absent from Armenians who dishonestly try to justify their huge genocidal con job... at the head of which is that master manipulator, Vahakn Dadrian, who actually tried to legitimize Andonian's forged telegrams, the ones Andonian himself indicated were fake.
I'll make use of Weems' "Armenia" and Gurun's "The Armenian File" to counter Fadix's smokescreen assertions. I urge you all to read these books... especially the mediator, who will also suffer from a bias (like the ICTJ lawyers), because of the prevalent Armenian propaganda that has brainwashed so many. Note Armenian attempts to discredit both authors have nothing to do with the immaculate sources that have been researched, particularly Armenian sources... sources that would have had no reason to be untruthful. Gurun's book is available online,
Let's say there is a news story about how a teen-aged girl shot her uncle. Should we automatically conclude she was a cold-blooded murderer?
No, ladies and gentlemen, when there is a crime committed, or what we are told is a crime committed in case there's no proof, we don't simply look at the final act. We look into the history of what took place in order to determine whether punishment is to be meted, and how much.
(It's funny how the Armenians love to have their cake and eat it too. For example, in the trial of Tehlirian, the assassin of Talat Pasha, the murderer walked scot-free. Why? Because the events in question -- and not the murder itself -- were examined in the fixed two-day trial, where only witnesses for the defense were permitted and whose outcome was pre-determined. Tehlirian had committed a "genocide," using the ICTJ's defintion. Tehlirian was unpunished. Maybe it's true what the genocide industry tells us, that if genocides remain unpunished, genocides will be committed again. This is why countless Armenian terrorists in future years committed genocides against innocent Turks, and some of the few who were caught usually got slaps on the wrists from biased Western courts.)
This is how Armenian propagandists hope you will swallow their big con job. Look at the surface. Never scratch underneath.
On p. 162 of Hovannisian's "The Republic of Armenia," the Armenian professor explains: In 1800, Armenians were scattered (around) Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey. In all but small districts, Armenians were a minority, which had been under Muslim, primarily Turkish, rule for 700 years. The Russian empire had begun the imperial conquests of the Muslim lands south of the Caucasus Mountains. One of their main weapons was the transfer of populations - deportation. They ruthlessly expelled whole Muslim populations, replacing them with Christians whom they felt would be loyal to a Christian government. Armenians were major instruments of this policy. Like others in the Middle East, the primary loyalty of Armenians was religious. Many Armenians resented being under Muslim rule, and they were drawn to a Christian State and to offers of free land (land which had been seized from Turks and other Muslims). A major population exchange began. In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic), a Turkish majority was replaced by Armenians. In other regions such as coastal Georgia, Circassia, and the Crimea, other Christian groups were brought in to replace expelled Muslims. There was massive Muslim mortality in some cases up to one third of the Muslims died. The Russians expelled 1.3 million Muslims from 1827 to 1878. One result of this migration, serving the purpose of the Russians, was the development of ethnic hatred and...conflict between Armenians and Muslims. Evicted Muslims who had seen their families die in the Russian Wars felt animosity toward the Armenians. Armenians who hated Muslim rule looked to the Russians as liberators. Armenians cooperated with Russian invaders of eastern Anatolia in wars in 1828, 1854, and 1877. When the Russians retreated, Armenians feared Muslim retaliation and fled. Hatred grew on both sides.
There you have it. The roots of the "genocide" have nothing to do with false theories like pan-Turanism, Muslims hating Christians, and the coveting of Armenian wealth. the roots of the "genocide" lie in Armenian treachery.
We can now understand how important it was for the Ottomans to take the Armenian threat seriously. If the Russians crashed through the gates, there would no longer be a refuge for Turks and Muslims to escape to. The Ottoman Empire was the last stop. The struggle was truly a matter of life or death.
Not only is it relevant to examine the past (and things really heated up with Armenian treachery after 1877, with the formation of Armenian terror groups), but the events of post-1916 as well.
Hovannisian admits to Armenian atrocities ("Public opinion in Azerbaijan was incensed, and the government, revolted by the atrocities, demanded strong measures to ensure the safety of the Muslims," p. 181),
well confirmed in the memoirs of an Armenian officer, "Men Are Like That." This is the Armenian M.O., following the Orthodox (including Russians, Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars) method of ethnic cleansing: massacre Turks and chase the rest away.
These would be "Death and Exile"s 5 million expulsed Turks/Muslims and 5.5 million killed from the Greek War of Independence until the end of WWI...
the ones pro-Armenian "genocide scholars" like Israel Charny, Tessa Hoffmann and Robert Melson never talk about.
This policy was followed by modern Armenia in 1992, massacring Karabagh Azeris and expelling nearly a million. (Fadix will give you weasel facts to try and dispute this, even though these events are in modern memory; note the West is largely silent about this episode, and American policy has gone as far as to punish victimized Azerbaijan, thanks to the strong power of the Armenian lobby.)
However, our topic is Armenian behavior in the Ottoman Empire;
Almost all were missionaries and racists or propagandists. After the war, we received better clues as to what really transpired, from pro-Armenians like Niles and Sutherland in 1919, and Admiral Bristol, whom the Armenians love to vilify.
It is very relevant to see how the Armenians acted murderously, in order to incite violence against them...
and how the Armenians spread their false propaganda, which present day Armenians like Fadix and Raffi are still patriotically carrying out...
thus inviting the European powers to intervene and give them "free land." The culmination of this treachery took place when the war broke out, and Armenians engaged in war against their country.
The ingratitude and greed is mind-boggling. British parliamentarian Sir Ellis Bartlett, 1895 pamphlet: "The tall tales were the wicked inventions of Armenian Revolutionary Committees" and had been "wantonly spread over Europe in the interests of these mad agitators and their paymasters, the Russian Panslavic societies."
Bartlett's notions are well confirmed in Capt. Norman's "The Armenians Unmasked." ( http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/report1895.html)
The Armenian claim "that the Christian subjects of the sultan were denied all liberty, and atrociously presented was a thoroughly false one... no other government had for the past four centuries shown as much toleration, or given so much religious freedom as that of the Ottoman Empire. Every form of religion-- Greek, Jewish, Nestorian, Roman Catholic and all others-- were allowed perfect liberty of practice and doctrine. Had the turks been less generous in the past, they would have escaped many of their present troubles. When heretics were burnt to death in France and Germany, and even in England, the Ottoman Government allowed its subjects entire religious freedom."
Armenians were the moxt taxed people in the Empire, they had under the Islamic law no right to defend themselves on court, while Muslim false witnesses were accepted, Armenians were not. Armenian witnesses to defend their cases had to find a Muslim witness or their cases was dismissed. The Muslim on the easy were exempt from the Penal Code 166 controlling the manufacturing of gun powder and arms, while this same law was applicated point by point against the Armenians. An example was when the Ottoman army raided the Erzerum cathedral in 1890, killed countless numbers in it, destroyed the inside and have found no arms at all. What Torque call treachery and Armenian rebellion, was legal for the Muslim and even supported by the government.
But of course Mr. Call that tolerance.
We can see the truth level of Fadix's attempt to make us believe how oppressed Armenians were ("second class citizen status on the law books and in practice ...'infidels'") by looking at Armenian sources. Oscanyan was so oppressed, he was allowed to go to America to study, where he wrote "The Sultan and his People" in 1857. Cymbal-maker Zilidjian was allowed to travel to Europe on a yacht he built, in the 19th century.
This doesn't mean all Armenians were living in a utopia. Indeed there are countless hearsay accounts Fadix can no doubt unearth attesting to how Armenians were treated dismally. (I recall a story about how a Turk went to an Armenian's store, and lopped off his head. I think it was provided by a missionary.) And the Armenians of the east were subjected to injustices by lawless bands. What's never stated is Armenians suffered where Ottoman control was weak, and the ones who suffered were all Ottoman citizens, Muslims included. Moreover, among these lawless bands, not all were Kurds and Turks... there were also Armenian and Greek lawless bands, primarily targeting Muslims. Consequently, Muslims were being attacked from two sides, by Muslim and non-Muslim brigands.
Migirdich B. Dadian, another Armenian living outside the Ottoman Empire, opined about the situation of Armenians in 1867, in a newspaper in France. What we understand is that the privileges granted the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were nothing less than a landless autonomy.
These opportunities were officially given to the Armenian community, at a time when no state was interested in them (and it was these very privileges that opened the way to the troubles we are now haggling over). It can be said that of all the countries the Diasporan communities are currently living, not one of these communities has freedom to the extent granted to Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire.
The Armenians were the wealthy ones, and they made the wheels turn. ("This community constitutes the very life of Turkey, for the Turks...have relinquished to them all branches of industry. Hence the Armenians are the bankers, merchants, mechanics, and traders of all sorts in Turkey." Oscanyan, 1857)
Why would the Ottomans further weaken themselves during desperate wartime by ridding themselves of this valuable national resource... the ones who were so indispensible, Oscanyan stated, "without them the Osmanlis could not survive a single day"?
Would it be fair to assume Clair Price made perfect sense in 1923: "...the military situation had turned sharply against the Enver Government. The Russian victory at Sarykamish was developing and streams of Turkish refugees were pouring westward into central Asia Minor. The British had launched their Dardanelles campaign at the very gates of Constantinople, and Bulgaria had not yet come in. It does not seem reasonable to assume that this moment, of all moments, would have been chosen by the Enver Government to take widespread measures against its Armenians unless it was believed that such measures were immediately necessary. Measures were taken."
First I present the Western Academics version as it is, in its section. Then, I present the Turkish government point of view. Then, the cases of the Turkish human right organization and Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide. Then, the various cases, Military tribunal, Permanent People tribunal. Then, the International community(recognition, UN etc.)
etc.
Every party well have its representation. So that when someone come and read, he will have a knowledge of the version of each sides.
Are you familiar with the folowing text?
Those who constantly attempt to advocate their views on politically charged topics, and who seem not to care about whether other points of view are represented fairly, are violating the non-bias policy ("write unbiasedly"). But the policy also entails that it is our job to speak for the other side, and not just avoid advocating our own views. If we don't commit ourselves to doing that, Wikipedia will be weaker for it. We should all be engaged in explaining each other's points of view as sympathetically as possible.
In saying this, we are spelling out what might have been obvious from an initial reading of the policy. If each of us is permitted to contribute biased stuff, then how is it possible that the policy is ever violated? The policy says, "Go thou and write unbiasedly". If that doesn't entail that each of us should fairly represent views with which we disagree, then what does it mean? Maybe you think it means, "Represent your own view fairly, and let others have a say." But consider, if we each take responsibility for the entire article when we hit "save", then when we make a change that represents our own views but not contrary views, or represents contrary views unfairly or incompletely, surely we are adding bias to Wikipedia. Does it make sense not to take responsibility for the entire article? Does it make sense to take sentences and say, "These are mine"? Perhaps, but in a project that is so strongly and explicitly committed to neutrality, that attitude seems out of place.
The other side might very well find your attempts to characterize their views substandard, but it's the thought that counts. In resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it's far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly. That will be appreciated much more than not trying at all.
"Writing for the enemy" might make it seem as if we were adding deliberately flawed arguments to Wikipedia, which would be a very strange thing to do. But it's better to view this (otherwise puzzling) behavior as adding the best (published) arguments of the opposition, citing some prominent person who has actually made the argument in the form in which you present it, and stating them as sympathetically as possible. Academics, e.g., philosophers, do this all the time. Always cite your sources, and make sure your sources are reputable, and you won't go far wrong.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 22:06, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Here we go again at square one.
I have to conclude you do it on purposes. Let me repeat for the 100nt time. My problem IS NOT about representing the other side, MY PROBLEM is about introducing misleading and erroneous informations. You have first edited and claimed this was about Armenia and Turkey opposing eachothers, when another member has obviously seen your clear biases, he reverted it to a conflict between the international community and Turkey. Wikipedia clearly stat that this is not about presenting both positions as equally valid, it is about presenting both positions. There are some informations that have nothing to do with positions, example... that this is an opposition between Turkey and the international community... and they should be presented. Your deletion is beyond neutralization.
You as well purposely manipulate the entry and clam: “Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans.” This is entirely sabotaging the article. I will tell you why, the ratio of Western scholars recognizing the genocide vs not recognizing it is about something like hundreds or thousands to one... And this is waiting the: “If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.” And I still included it even if I didn't need to do so. Your version is misleading it has nothing to do with neutralizing, you try to fool the reader to believe that this is 50-50 debated among Western scholars, which IS NOT the cases at all, so your changes are beyond neutralizing.
Now the most obvious cases of of manipulation, is when you introduce the word “alleged” before “deportation and murder.” Are you supposing that the fact that Armenians were deported and that there were many that were murdered is debated? This clear example of misleading show that you are not neutralizing the article. The question is not about if Armenians were deported and murdered, because no one deny that, the question is about if the Ottoman government ordered the destruction of the Armenian population.
Coming to the four points. First of, I am summerising my cases as much as it is possible, you don't expect me to write few lines to cover your biases here?
Second, I did not ask you to leave, I asked you to mind about things you know about rather than getting involved in things you ignore. If you have interpreted this as me asking you to leave, it further justify my request, since that by interpreting this as if I ask you to leave, you admit your ignorance, and still request to edit by introducing erroneous informations.
I will not stop “accusing” you to have a hidden agenda because I am not accusing, I am just pointing to the fact that you do have a hidden agenda, I do not need to accuse you, your editions clearly show it.
Fourth, I am focusing, your “neutrality” is a very important issue, because you want to present yourself as a moderator. My complaints are really relevent.
And lastly, believe me, as time passes by in this discussion, it will become clear that you are biased.
“You suggest Armenian Genocide happened and that its a fact. I suggest we dont know if it was a state organised extermination plan or just WW1 fatalities. NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW dictates thats the proper corse of action regarding this matter.”
Again, I repeat, your editions have nothing to do with Neutral point of view, your editions delete accurate informations. If I claim most western scholars, that is a fact, a ratio which can not be debated, if I say that this is a problem between the International community and Turkey, this as well is a recorded fact which can not be debated... those have nothing to do with POV or NPOV. Fadix 00:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware Florida Georgia Idaho Illinois Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina Tennessee Utah Vermont Virgina Washington Wisconsin
Doesn't this constitute majority? --Fadix
My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)::::::::That is because, Coolcat, it is a personal attack. But at least our friend did not call you a "RACIST NAZI" as he did with me. -- Torque Mar 22, 2005
If you use word murder you are forcing the reader to accept genocide. If you use the words like most, majority you are still forcing the reader to asume the genocide.
You are a moderator and so am I. You cannopt prove genocide on wikipedia. Thats against NPOV.
Sweeden currently does not recognise the genocide according to this article hence the . The ratio of the scholars is irrelevant ant this point,
"Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans." is a very confusing statement. If you realy want to talk about neutrality you have to accept a contaverisal topic as this one requires 50:50 ratio on all issues.
When you use the statement. You cannot force this matter untill other mods give up. That is definatly not the way we do things here. I did not delete that statement. I commented out for someone to reword it. you have no idea what commenting out means you have no idea what the tag does, and you claim things. You are neutral and I am not, thats your suggestion. Yout Truth is based on facts only I got a bunch of lies. Is that what you suggest? I am not accusing you of things why are you constantly acusimg me. This can be considered a personal attack you know. --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV suggests that both sides have equal say regarding all items.
When you use the words most, many, majority, you breat that balance. This article tells us currently that most western scholars think genocide did happen while a minority claims it didnt.
The views of any non western scholars are irrelevant hence we dont mention them.
You are not making a stronger case by insisting on keeping an extremely confusing sentence as "Some Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that a state-sponsored extermination plan, while some Turkish and some Western scholars that a clashes between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease claiming the lives of all Ottomans." . I merely want to simplify it to "Scholars". --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) You will stop acusing me. I am starting to get annoyed. --Cool Cat My Talk 20:13, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) In wikipedia when a mod edits something we give them about 30 - 60 minutes before working on our edits for them to clarify their case. Please folow this civilised attitude. If you continue to revert all my edits on this article. Ill handle YOU diferently.
You are obligated to recognise my authority and the authority of all moderators and they recognise yours, you are welcome to ignore me but any more Personal Attacks from you will not be tollerated. Such attacks will result in your destruction, I do not WANT your destruction. I am warning you so that you dont get destroyed. This is neither a threat nor an attack - just a freindly warning. I am a moderator and so are you. Everyone on wikipedia is a moderator. Not everyone is an Admin. I know mods who turn down admin requests as it is a lot of hard work so dont underestimate/dismiss us mods.
Since a scientific concensus have not been reached regarding the Armenian Genocide you cannot talk in the name of the scientific community, the international comunity is not as involved as the article suggests. International comunity often refrains from involment in disputes. This article is more than simple history discussion but is a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 22:12, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I can also list 50 states who opose the genocide in the US, would not be credible. I would love to see sources. I dont want you to paste the web page I am quite capable of clicking the link you post.
--
Cool Cat
My Talk 22:58, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I recognize your authority as a member and not as a moderator. I don't see where it is stated that I should recognize your authority as a moderator. A moderator is supposed to moderate, and to moderate one should be able to differentiate himself from his biases, something you are not able to do. And again, it seems that you didn't get the point. I can not attack you without intention, you perceive it as attack. I am making you charges but not attacks. I report your clear biases, call that attack I don't care, and I am patiently waiting a mediator, because I am confident that he/she will realize what is so obvious, that you are attempting to sabotate the article.
My posts are long, and I am sorry for that, I come from forums where the average posts are in the hundreds of words, I participate in a history forum where generally people post essays and studies, and I thought that Wikiepdia was such a serious place where people had actually done researches regarding topics in which they participate in. I landed up here after I realized that the Armenian genocide entry not only was clearly biased, but as well contained dubious materials, which authenticity can even not be confirmed. And to my surprise, there was the author of tallarmeniantale, the racist known spammer that was hijacking it. But by then, you had no problem in trying to neutralize it, you had as well no problem leaving only two websites supporting the genocide theses against the other position which included a bunch of links. You only decided neutralizing when Mr. Torque position was defeated and he claimed leaving. Those are facts which display your clear biases.
As for the states, had you actually visited the links I provide, you would have found the answer. The fact of the matter is that not so long ago, the Armenian genocide was to be recognized by the Federal government, internal polls suggested that it would have been passed with a majority vote. After the president talked with the Turkish president by phone, the vote was pulled out. Of course, I do not refer to those things, I do not refer about as well, to the many other countries which Turkey pressurized to pull out the votes, including Syria, Iran and Lebanon.
As for the scientific community, read few books dude, you have no clue of what you are talking about, this cases is the second most studied genocide, there are thousands and thousands of books referring to it, and you claim that it has not been established by the scientific community, that is ridiculous. Fadix 23:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is NOT a fourm, this is not an essay either. Historic "facts" are always contraversial. You are trying to prove armenian genocide I am trying to neither deny nor acknowlege it. THIS IS NOT A GOD DAMN FORUM LIKE you suggested, views of both parties should be voiced EQUALY. I am not even trying to deny genocide but all I request is you dont try to prove it. As far as I and every one else is concerned Neither Turkish nor Armenian nor any other Propoganda is welcome here. You cannot chase us away and force us to acknowlege your facts. You are asking me to read books, whose views? Pro genocide, anti genocide. This page is not your research paper. Untill the diplomatic dispute is resolved there are two parties should be adressed 50/50 regarding this matter. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 23:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a member class, you are either a moderator or an admin. You are welcome to talk the admins in creating a 3rd category for you. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 23:29, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
BWAHAHA!!! (sorry could not retain myself). So Sir is neutral :)
The documents are forgeries, the Armenians were sent in russia or to pic-nick in the Syrian desert.
What is disputed among the historic community??? if you have access to online libraries or Historic publications, search for the word “Armenian genocide,” maybe http://www.questia.com/ could be a start, research the ratio if you could find any, you'll only find McCarthy, and Gunter who bases himself(as he admits) on McCarthy, the rest of the publications and discuss about the Armenian cases, the same goes with other libraries. That the majority of the scientific community recognize can even not be debated. This subject is even not controversial, there is Turkey, and there is the rest. And here you claim having read and the BS you present are the regurgitations from the Turkish government. Sorry to say you this, if the majority support the Arm”a”nian genocide theses, it should be presented as it is recognized and not as you would wish it to be presented.-- Fadix 00:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not qualified to discuss if it happened or not. I do not have (or will ever have) phds in social studies. I do dispute your claim of historians agreeing on this matter. Normaly when someone claims entier world VS one thing thats biased. I just thing declaring a nation a bunch of "cold blooded" "Political Lying Unholy Cowardly Killers" is biased. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Besides, why does it bother you to make this article 50/50? It is not like you represent the entier scientific comunity. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just think you are making this article one sided. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
IN THE 19th CENTURY IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE: 29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha, 22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs, 33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament, 7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals, 11 Armenians served in universities as professors.
There were 803 Armenian schools employing 2088 teachers with over 80,000 pupils within the Ottoman Empire in 1901-2.
BRITISH CONSUL IN ERZURUM, GRAVES replied to the question of New York Herald Reporter Sydney Whitman "If no Armenian revolutionary had come to this country, if they had not stirred Armenian revolution, would these clashes have occurred?" as follows; "Of course not. I doubt if a single Armenian would have been killed."
Toynbee estimates the number of the Armenian losses as 600.000. The same figure appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica's 1918 edition. Armenians had also claimed the same number before. Bogos Noubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, declared that after the war 280.000 Armenians were living in Turkey and 700.000 Armenians have emigrated to other countries. According to the estimation of Bogos Noubar, the total number of the Armenian population before the war was 1.300.000. Therefore, it can be concluded that the number of the Armenian losses was around 300.000. This figure reflects the same proportion, according to their total population, of the 3 million loss of Turkish lives during the same period. Once more, facts do not correspond with the Armenian claims.
I am pasting stuff I picked up from diferent web pages. Is that just propoganda or factual, you are the knowlegable one, I am not qualified to comment. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I told you to stop acusing me of things. I am merely pasting what i found conflicts with what you are claiming, the oposong view. As you are the only person knowlegable regarding the issue and are neutral I was expecting a response. What you call bias is the other view, which you claim is complete bs. I am kinda confused. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So armenians living in poverty were killed in mass quantities for money? I doubt the people marching were the richest. I believe in reviewing all facts. If that makes me a revisionist so be it, hate me. I still like to rethink things and make sure the data is acurate. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) I am treating you in a civil manner, I expect the same kind of respose. You will stop acusing me of things or I will file a complaint regarding personal attacks which is more serious of an offense than vandalising. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's interesting that figures used showing how many Armenians had reached respectable government positions in the early twentieth century somehow suggest the Genocide didn't occur. These people in Istanbul (Bolis) weren't moved away when the new policy started. They were shot. Dmn / Դմն 15:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please don't make up quasi-authoritative terms like "moderator". We are all equal as editors--including the administrators. None of us has any authority on content and it is inappropriate to demand that anyone recognise such authority. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
At this point I am disputing the statistics regarding...
Like I said earlier I am not knowlegable enough to comment or argue with material on the article, I only pasted information form web pages. What you interprete from them is a bit different from mine, People in High places implies there were no racial hostilities towards the group of people before an event. Article currently acuses the Turkish side of a genocide and suggets All Armenians were 100% innocent in the hole matter... The rebellion suggests that was not quite the case. You arguing with me is rather pointless all I am trying to prove is that tere is an oposing view that is not a part of the article. -- Cool Cat My Talk 15:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article reveals more of the diplomatic and social aspect. Its mostly neutral still pro Genocide but has views of both parties.
"It's easy to understand why views like Akcam's aren't well-received in Turkey. Most Turks honestly believe their country is being asked to admit to crimes their ancestors did not commit. Turks also believe that any admission of genocide would lead to demands that Turkey pay restitution or give back land in eastern Anatolia -- ideas Armenians haven't dismissed. "
[ [1]]
Excerpts:
"Just as a sense of enmity was building against Turks by Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, and other subjects, so too were Turks becoming less tolerant of these peoples who, in their view, were traitors and ingrates."
"By mid-1915, [Enver Pasha] decided to rule out any future use of the Armenians by Russia by moving over 1 million people out of the war zone. Deportation had begun."
"At the same time and in the same region [as the Armenians], Turkish and Kurdish deaths were also very high"
"Ottoman officials clearly failed in their responsibility to protect the deportees from attacks by Kurds, deserters, and others. While famine, disease, severe weather, and a general lack of supplies seemed to affect everyone along the eastern frontier, it was the Armenians who, once unarmed, faced added perils from marauders, bandits, and undisciplined Ottoman officials and constabularies."
"'where Armenians advanced and retired with the Russians [the Armenians] retaliatory cruelties unquestionably rivaled the Turks in their inhumanity.'"
"The massacre of the Armenians, Armenian collusion with Russian forces, the aggressive policies of Russia, and the plight of the Turks and Kurds in the eastern provinces are important, emotional, and far-reaching questions that should be further researched. It is to the Library of Congress rather than the halls of Congress that we should turn to find answers surrounding the great tragedy that befell the Armenians and others."
[ [2]]
-- Cool Cat My Talk 16:02, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Torque, March 23 2005
Were you not the one deleting from the article, the Turkish government point of view? I gave a section as support for the other side, but you deleted preferring hijacking the article by merging both point of views as one. You have chosen to do that and I have warned you that if you do that, it will obviously lead the reader to conclude there was a genocide. I accepted to make a huge concession, you deleted it yourself and now you “cry” that the article is not neutral.
The other side you copypast has nothing to do with 1915, if you read revisionist materials, a large part of them are unrelated with 1915-1917, what do you want me to do? Is the Armenian genocide entry not about 1915-1917? And I renew my offer to present both point of views independently, presenting the strong arguments and the critics made about them. But again, the article will still lead the reader to think that there was a genocide. What you want me to do about that, since even the Turkish government version of the event would still be a genocide under the UN convention, this is why any serious historians and specialists claim it to defy logic.
And now, you are interpreting the event, this is your POV, you admit not knowing much about it, yet you affirm. People that knew me past over 5 years ago, when I was posting in a Turkish board, I didn't knew much about the topic, the first work I have read was a denialist work, my position really reflect my study about the topic, and here I am more moderate than many specialists that claim that debating with the other side doesn't even worth losing your time.
You made an interesting point last, I ignored it, I was upset about myself for ignoring it. You claimed that Turkey proposed to exchange documents but Armenian refused, those are things that give you away, I don't buy you anymore sorry. Because if you weren't biased to begin with you would understand the refusal.
This is not about convincing Armenia, this is about Turkey showing that the question is debated. Because if Turkey was really sincere, it will invite the Holocaust and Genocide specialists around the world to discuss about the issue. And here is the point, they already have invited specialists, and not only Armenian specialists have refused over the years, but as well neutral ones... specialists are not interested to trap themselves in a political discussion, when their study is historical.
Coming to your points.
1- That most scholars recognize is not a dispute, if most believe it it should be written, and ideally, the reason for this should as well be said.
2- I proposed to divide the article with the different point of view, you ignored my proposition.
3- Make some propositions
4- I discussed with Torque, he lost his cases, the informations I provide regarding the camps and the special organization can not be rejected, other than claiming forgery and propaganda... but those are not valid explanations, since the sources are Ottoman records and German records.
And lastly, again expose your clear biases, the said rebellion you reported has nothing to do with 1915, the records are about 1890s, and the source is Uras collection of files, he was the master Ottoman propagandist at the time and known as the father of denialism.
The extend of “racial hostilities” still debated, and has nothing to do regarding whatever or not the government took the decision of destruction, this is what is important here, the subject is 1915-1917, and it is about what is called the Armenian genocide. Fadix 16:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You can ignore my cases, you are not the one who will be putting material to the article, we have a person doing that for us. You talked Torque to death, you are tallented in that, you dont want to make any comprimises, that genocide is a solid fact, this is rather fanatic if you ask me. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added and removed the "Turkish point of view" and "Armenian point of view" as it was leading to bias and was being a very difficult edit. Besides they can be merged. I was working on this article long before you showed up and claimed you were tha absolute authority regarding this matter. All you did was talk several people to death. I seriously discourage that. --
Cool Cat
My Talk 16:42, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am by providing counter interpretations that you are not as neutral as you claim. I learnt a lot while studing the matter. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Where is the hidden camera? That is really becoming surreal. What are you talking about? I discussed with Torque, because he was the only opponent that knew a little about it, while I know his racist nature and how it had no place in Wikipedia, I still talked with him, because I thought your side should have a representation.
Now you claim I am not neutral. Duh!!! Who told you I am? I am convinced a genocide happened, this is a surprise for no one, I have been reading regarding the subject for over 5 years, have read over a hundred book, references to over 500 others, countless numbers of essays. And Torque that consider me as a less than an animal won't deny that. It is obvious that after reading the bunch of materials I will have my opinion. But again, this is not relevant here, you asked a NPOV article and I will give you one, but the article should be accurate, if a claim is made, it should said by who and why... if something is supported by most, it should be indicated and the why as well, this is what should be ideal, what should as well be ideal is attaching to each point of view its critics... ideally, both side should be included independently with their strongest arguments. But the problem being that one side has a bunch of more arguments and is supported by much more people, still people that will read the article will think that the article support one position against the other. But this is to the reader to judge. You can not delete one sides argument to make the cases as 50-50, because if you do that you will mislead the reader, you will introduce a POV, which will be that two positions are equally valid.
So, Coolcat, that didn't knew much about it few days ago, has learned a lot now just by going after sites which support his position and reading few quotes. I changed my mind, it isn't surreal, it is humoristic. Fadix 17:03, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What can we put in as facts into this article:
The article is limited to explaing 2 years of the process of this event. What lead tho this event and anythging prior that affected this is not clearly stated. Article should be more of a bullet format than storry telling, that ends up with too many one sided comments which shifs the interpretation of the fact. -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1- British archives support the theses of genocide. If you claim that the British archive say else, it would be an inaccurate information.
2- ASALA did not exist to “prove” genocide, it was called a justice group, and was about forcing the Turkish government to recognize, and take over what they considered as occupied lands, this is unrelated to the Armenian genocide. You can not present something that brings no “informational” statement regarding the topic at hand.
3- No, Armenians did not revolt or committed treachery, even the Turkish foreign ministry official released archives don't report that Armenians were deported because they committed anything. If you claim that happened it is POV, you can not present the Turkish government version as NPOV.
4- Most Japanese did not die during the deportation, etc. it is not the same thing at all, this is an interior movement of people without destination... in which over half perished. The Ottoman barred access to relief, they released from central prisons butchers to escort the convoys, those are recorded by German and Ottoman documents. If you make the statement you propose it would be POV.
5- Armenia has no note to exchange with Turkey, Armenia is just a country like others that recognize the genocide. Armenia as it declared many times has no political aim with the question, the genocide is historical, Turkey want it to make it political... it wants to pressurize Armenia, because it lost when it claimed that historians should decide. Historians decided and now Turkey last chance is to exchange with a country that it closed its borders with.
6- There are international court rulings, the Permanent People Tribunal has ruled for years(1984), The Ottoman Martial Court in 1919 concluded it was an act of planned extermination. The UN recognize it, and many such bodies. So your claim is wrong, if you write that, it is a wrong information.
7- Coolcat, it is obvious you are not a native English American, you words are middle Eastern in Nature, because you would not have used the term race to differentiate peoples of different ethnic groups, you are mistaking ethnic groups with races. Beside that, everyone agree that in World War II, people died, everyone agree that Germans and Jews died, recent statistics shows that more German died, but the Holocaust entry is about the losses of Jews etc. not Germans. The Armenian genocide is about the Armenian losses and not other peoples losses, if you introduce other informations, they have no place here.
Lastly, what lead to the event is World War I, I would have no problem including 1914, but again, it won't support your cases, because there are nearly no records from your side for those years, while there exist German records regarding crimes against the Armenians. Since I am kind, I am trying to neutralize. Just try the mediation, you'll see that the article is more on your side than what a neutral article would be. Fadix 16:49, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok so,
And what I dont like (my pov)
My side is neutrality. -- Cool Cat My Talk 17:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1- The ratio of Armenians having died, with Assyrians(this should be covered as well), is beyond any other groups. Besides, this is the Armenian genocide section, Ottoman losses should be included in the World War I section, and if you visit its talk page, I have raised the point regarding the low figures representing the Ottoman losses.
2- ASALA was active in the 80s, it was a terrorist organization, it has no place in the genocide article, if you claim there is, you are completely biased.
3- No government take decisions for no reason, genocides don't happen out of the “blue moon,” of course there are reasons, like there was reason to destroy European Jews, like there was reasons for the Outous to destroy the Toutis, like there was reason for the Kmer Rouge Class, to hierarchical Kmerian system, which lead to the destruction of over a million people. There was reasons behind the Ukrainian famine, there was reasons behind the German policy against the Herreros at the beginning of the last century. The thing here is, about a decision which led to the destruction of the Armenian community in Anatolia. Do you see any Armenians there now? No!!! That we take the Turkish government theses or that we take the theses most supported by specialists in the field, the result is the same. Zero Armenians, and it is enough to be applicable as genocide under the UN convention. And this is the main weakness of the Turkish government theses of “no-genocide,” because even their version is genocide according to the definition.
4- The Ottoman took hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants from the Russian Empire, they fed them, vaccinated them, recorded them and “relocated them” and “deblocked” an amount of money. They had enough capability to have such precise lists etc. but surprising as it seem, there are no such lists for the Armenians who were their own subjects. It was harder for the Ottoman to deport the elderly, women and children, then leaving them... they did it regardless even if they were no threat. The Ottoman “evacuated” Armenians outside of the war zone... when they did not need to do so.
5- I don't see how this news support your case.
6- You ask for court cases, and when I provide them you tell me they are not valid.
7- I did not claim “British” American, but native English American, I dough English is your first language, that is all, it is not the first time you alluded to race, you used the term racial as well... you use such terms that are pass dated in the American society, those terms suggest hatred or racial characterizations, your words such as “attacking a nation” etc. as well, those are not attacks, those are relevant here, they are about your biases... you are hiding under the banner of neutrality to go and hijack entries about Turkey, and now you have been exposed to be the totally biased person you are. You are in no position to claim anymore that I am biased, when you are obviously more biased than I.
1- I am not the one posting in other members pages and accuse others on their backs, you are, when I think something about someone, I tell him, and I don't see what is wrong here, I don't see how I am against the rules to claim that someone has a hidden agenda because he introduce his biases in every given occasions in every articles involving Turkey. Am I accusing you? Yes! I won't deny, I am happy though that you are not using the term “attacking” anymore.
2- Your second point is again another evidences of your non-Western mentality, this is generalization and has no place in Wikipedia, you think a world Armenian conspiration, similar than those theses of world Jewry conspiration support by people like Zundel. What you think of a “people” has no place here, what you think an entire nation does or does not has no relevency, it only confirm my suspicions about you. If you can't confront my position, fine, but stop accusing an entire nation... because this is an accusation, and not the genocide, the genocide is about leaders of a government having ordered something in this cases, while you accuse an entire people of doing things. I think we had enough of Torque racism, no need to pull fuel here.
And no, your side is not neutrality, your side is personal POV. Fadix 17:54, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
...
You suggest everyone that does not think like you do to completely hide their views and hide in a dark corner I guess, I am allowed to pu my POV as they are relevant to the articles NPOV status. If my views and your views clash, there needs to be a neutral tone at those parts. Meaning when we talk about Armenians lobying outside of Armenia we need to empfisise what both parties think about it. -- Cool Cat My Talk 19:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat, this is a question of probability and mathematic, and not because you oppose to my views. What is the probability to have a complete neutral stranger who not only participate in every possible entries regarding Turkey, not only do he introduce his biases, not only does he leave biases introduced in one direction and not other, not only that he uses the term “Arm”a”nian... but that he comes here and question the veracity of the second most studied genocide. What do you want me to say? At least, my position is supported by the specialists in the field. There are even a Turkish organization in Germany working in the prevention of genocides that not only do recognize the genocide but as well petitioned among the Turks and got 10,000 names(Turks) asking the recognition of the Armenian genocide. I have a Turkish friend that has gone in the East, and there are stories of colored reddish send, they believe the sand is red because it has been colored by Armenian blood, in the New York Times few years ago, there was an article of someone that interviewed Turks in the East about “stories” of Armenian massacres. You don't expect me to consider you as neutral after all those things are you? In fact, wait till the mediation start out, and you will clearly see that my position will be considered much more neutral than yours.
What is the point of the Armenian lobbying group, are you suggesting that they buy the academia? Don't you believe that the Turkish government pressures forcing countries to redraw resolutions more than counter balance any lobbies? Don't you believe that all those millions spent by the Turkish government more than counter balance it? Don't you believe that the founding and funding of Ottoman chair of histories by the Turkish government, and the introduction of grants such as the ITS and ARIT, more than compensate the Armenian lobby? The Armenian lobbies power is insignificant when comparing it to the power of a government that spent millions, that introduce itself in universities Middle Eastern Departments, and directly pay “specialists.” Or what to say about those hundreds of diplomats hidden under their diplomatic protections distribute in every given occasions diplomatic publications, which material will be called racist by Western standards? Of course the Neutral you has nothing to say about that, but you have a problem with Armenians fight against the denial. Don't you have any idea of how the ASALA was born, do you know why it was in the 70s and 80s? Wait till I cover and neutralize the ASALA entry.
And again, I am not against the presentation of the Turkish government theses, I did post it, you deleted it, what you are after is to present it as equal as the genocide theses by deleting who says what and why they say it, this is a clear attempt of hijacking an article and is against Wikipedia policy.
Now, let cover your 7 points.
1- There are the official Ottoman records of 800,000 killed, and there are the quota submitted during the Military tribunal, the German and Austrian records present as well over a million, that we take the Ottoman records or its allies records, we come to over a million deaths, and this clearly show that over half of the Armenians did perish.
2- P.L.U.C.K sing about the genocide and is in a “war” to get it recognized, Bush statement is about the event.
3- You want the article to present your POV here, it is your point of view, while I present the theses supported by people, what you think is irrelevant.
4- True, and that is why most Armenians were not shut, but killed by various other methods.
5- The article is about the Turkish government asking to research the matter, it is a political move, I have covered this in my discussion with Torque, you tell me to answer when I have already answered those points, but of course you're not interested reading what I write, but rather googling trying to find revisionist sites.
6- The Permanent People tribunal has an international mandate, and has covered over the years many other cases, the Ottoman Military court has concluded “extermination” planed and executed by the government... the leading figures were condemned to death. The UN recognize it as genocide, and any such bodies, what you claim here makes no sense at all.
7- Oh LALA, now you are using the term attacks, which attacks? I am accusing you and not attacking you. Oh and it is kind of ironic that you accuse me of what you are doing, from when did I write to other members lying about you like you did with me?
1- Go ahead, you are free to do what you want, if you expect to shout the other position with such cheap tricks without you can't confront with arguments, go ahead.
2- Shish, my views are fanatic? Well, go call the academic community as fanatics because they support my position then. Again, you are lying about me Mr. While me accusations have grounds, you accuse me with things which you yourself know are untrue. Where did I even prevented the other side to have its point of view? I even have gone as far as posting in a forum where Mr. Torque spam with his racist rhetoric to come and participate in the mediation. Does it sound that I am for the suppression of the other side? Mind you again that I even posted the Turkish government version but you deleted it because it was specifying whos position it is. You don't want people to know who says what, and here is where my problem is with you. Fadix 20:37, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In some cases the word relocation could be used, because of what was supposed to happen... example, the Ottoman at the beginning relocated, but in some other cases, when the result is important, the word relocation is not accurate... Because if we have in mind that there is no Armenian left, the result would be "deportation" instead of relocatiom. I will see how the change in some instances could be made.
Without its uses the article is not accurate, there was no reported 25 to 26 camps, but concentration camps, there were transit camps, and "spot camps" etc. The article as it is can not be accurate, because the reader would think that this actualy present all the camps. I will modify it and will be trying to be neutral. - unsigned fadix
I recomend no one to touch article directly. Mediator(s) should be handling this matter. -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix is not being neutral in my opinion. Please vote if you agree or not, I am trying to determine if its just me or him... -_- : -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Yes -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What load of crap is this attempt? Where did I ever claimed I was neutral? I do have my opinions about the event, but this does not mean that the articile is not neutral, there are hardly anyone neutral about a topic. So I will even say yes and agree with you on your own vote, because I have nothing to hide.
But the question here is not about if I am neutral or not, but rather if your intention is to make the article neutral or not. This is what should be passed on vote here. But we know that because of the nature of this subject, the votes will be biased to begin with. Fadix 20:40, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry I am failing to reason with you. You dispute any view that remotely prompts that the genocide was not really a genocide, you call al of that bias, you call me names you acuse me of various wierd things, I am sick of being polite. You scare away people from the conversation, you can never prove the genocide on wikipedia. Its against the norms of wikipedia, the oposing view is either not represented, or represented vaugiley. Any person reading that article would think that a genocide happened, after reading the article a person should be indiferent. Any acusation must have a counter. I type something you either call me biased as an answer or you dismiss it completely. Thats not how we do things on wikipedia. I have seen lots of complaints by various mods... I dont like it. THis is not being productive at all. Fadix is terrorising the article...
I just checked if there was a “fallen star,” I was away for hours and when I come back I realize that you have posted the message just one minute before I viewed it, I should make a wish.
What names do I call you, give me examples please, do you mean the word “biased,” you should check what you did yourself and compare them with how I answered you. You called me fanatic, you have waged a war to ruin my credibility by warning about me on countless numbers of members talk pages because you were unable to discuss the topic.
You are wrong Sir. you can not manipulate an article as to make it look 50-50, it would be POV, trying to modify articles to support two cases equally as to suggest equality is a suggestion and it is POV. I repeated and repeat this again, you can't do that.
True, one position should be countered... but the problem is that there is no counter for the special organization or the concentration camps covered by the other side. The other side answer to that is complete silence, I have read many revisionist materials(all major ones) over the years and haven't found anything. If there is no other side for those points it should be left as is until there is few peer reviewed works being published that provide the other side here, according to you all the points that have no other sides should be deleted. Fadix 04:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, you have been adding a lot of information to the article recently. As a suggestion, I think the quality of the article would be higher, if you mentioned all your sources in connection with all the pieces of information. You might want to read this: cite your sources Stereotek 20:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocide
According to Ericd, "They are clearly established cases of genocide the Holocaust, Armenian genocide (despite Turkish denial) and Rwanda. I don't think NPOV should go as far as leaving a loophole for Holocaust deniers."
And that was my position at the beggining, and I could have defended that position that would have had chances to succeed, but I was kind enough to present your point of view in the article more than it had place in.
Oh is that it, despite Turkish denial, the views of several million people is irrelevant. This article will either be neutral or either be neutral. you will not use wikipedia as a tool to spread your views. I deny the holocoust, so does a lot of scholars. You will NOT use wikipedia as a propoganda tool. The very concept of NPOV means NEUTRAL point of view, that aint neutral as long as there is an oposing view. I want an article thats not offensive to either side. Currently it has staemets like "the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation" or "Many of those responsible for the genocide where sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. The martial court established the will of the Ittihadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its " are not neutral. Since Fadix dictates recent history cannot be a part of the aticle recent history section shoukd either go or material oposing the genocide must be added.
Thanks for admitting your denial of the Holocaust, it becomes clearer now, Mr. Deny the Holocaust, why should he recognize the Armenian genocide, afteral the Holocaust [according to him] is a fake, the Armenian genocide as well, so as what happened in Cambodia, Rwanda... onces I finish working on this article, don't try tricking people with your NPOV by trying to manipulate its(Holocaust) entry, because I will oppose to it as I am opposing here. You still fail to comprehend Sir. Neutrality is not about presenting two theses as being equally valid, because that would be a paradox, if you do that to be neutral you kill neutrality. And I am sure that as an engineer you are intelligent enough to understand what a paradox is, right? Maybe you should meditate about that at night.
True, those points you raise should be toned down, but they are accurate data's, toning things down doesn't mean to delete them and delete their sources, this is what you want, but sorry I won't accept that, and am sure that no one would accept it, including moderators and arbitrators. I am ready to present opposing views here, but there is no opposing views here again, the other sides answer is SILENCE. Now I have to sleep, I hope tomorrow, if I view the page, I will read things that make more sense coming from you. Tomorrow will be a good day, I will present the references for the documents and start adding new stuff and footnoting. I am still ready to add a section regarding the Turkish government point of view you know... I'm really a kind person. Fadix 04:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views..."
The minority point of view that the Turkish government promote should of course be mentioned, but according to Wikipedias policies it should NOT be given equal status to the point of view shared by the vast majority of experts. A section regarding the Turkish government POV would in my opinion be great, and nothing more is really needed. Coolcat, are you serious that you deny the Holocaust or is it some kind of joke? If not, you have in my opinion lost all your credibility. Stereotek 12:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought and thought about it and have read Stereotek provided link, I need people concensus about the way it will be presented.
I thought of presenting for each section, few bibliography that are concidered relevent, I thought of the footnote way, but the thing with that, is that the footnote way in other articles is always used(those I have viewed) to point to links, even thought there might be sites for some, I mostly(or nearly always) rely on works, and the footnote would direct to works rather than sites. If I present the Turkish government version, since denialists are obviously more vocal on the internet(the same goes with the Shoah), a large part of their books are accessible(not so long ago, McCarthys book was accessible from the Turkish foreign ministry website, but isn't available anymore), so maybe in the cases of the Turkish government version, citing sites would be relevent.
I am awaing peoples suggestion here, including yours Coolcat.
I also thought of starting an entry regarding the "Ottoman Armenian Population," because alone it requites an article and might be long. Fadix 19:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did not delete anything from the article, I commented out parts. There is a colosal diference. I was objecting the way it was written. Stop acusing me of things damnit! -- Cool Cat My Talk 16:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This section should mention the most important facts, and one of the most important facts in this article is, that the vast majority of scholars support the genocide theses. Maybe you don't like some specific facts, but that is never a valid excuse to delete them. Doing so is POV vandalism. Stereotek 12:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you insist, I am not buying it. Also why did the death toll rise from 1,5 to 1,8 million in the dast 6 days?
Not quite, I have seen people talking about 2.5 million people died. You cannot use the bell curve estimation due to the high level of propoganda and lack of evidence. the range is so large, I dont like it either but if you make it any diferent misguided people will definately chnage that. the +-5 and outlyers are not in the statistics. There are turkish propoganda sides dictating no one died, rather far fetched in my opinion so 200,000 1,800 is the official armenian claim?
Also I edited
Armenia, tell me what you think. It will be best of our interest not to include scholar data, I refuse to believe its factuality, I do not see what most is based on. Number of books are irrelevant, the authors may be quoting each other. Besides it is not lead section material, and is excesively complex as a sentence. I do not see why keeping the reader read material at a 50-50% factuality bothers you, dont you want the user to figure it out on their own? --
Cool Cat
My Talk 17:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, be bold: [4] Stereotek 05:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok so this is your article and whatever anyone else claim is ignorable? like it or not numbers range from 200,000 - whatever. Lack of evidence and acuracy in body count is the reason. The numbers provided are disputed. Why is there a diference in body counts by various diferent archives. There are different numbers and either neither view will be heard or both. I will not be satisfied with the absurd "scholar" statistic in the lead page. Armenian Genocide was not a genocide according to one view, you are dillusional to suggest of "mislead the reader", that is what you are doing by suggesting the genocide. Article should be factual not POV oriented, pro genocide, no matter how you paint it is a POV anti/counter genocide is another view. Your personal beliefs are none of my business. You can put anything you wish on your talk page, this page however where you will not rule. You may not like what some people are suggesting, but slamming all anti genocide material is untollerable. "Denailists" may be your enemy, but wikipedia is not you battle ground. -- Cool Cat My Talk 06:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If the mediator will not follow any of my suggestions, there is no mediation. -- Cool Cat My Talk 06:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Views of "Dr. Wolfgang Gust" are not less significant than "Dr. Justin McCarthy". Scholars have not decided on the matter, do not declare that. -- Cool Cat My Talk 07:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous. statistics of works are the only way to measures specialists position. If someone did a research, it is expected that to get it published it should be peer reviewed and then published... this is how it works, if someone has a position and did not publish any research, he can not defend his position by claiming his claim to be academically valid. This is how it works in the academic world, and if you have ever published anything in a scientific paper, you will see that this is true.
As I see, there has been many talk yesterday, when I was to a Genocide Symposium, where Taner Akçam gave a lecture, he even used the term “collective schizophrenia” to call his own society behavior regarding the Armenian genocide, and now you are here using the term “delusional”(again) in what regards what I say. This sort of claims can be considered as attacks.
And I repeat again, I offered you to present the other side, YOU DELETED IT, because you don't want people to know who believes what... you can NOT just claim some think that happened in a middle of an article, and then go as to say, others don't believe it. This would be misleading people. The Martial Court has no other side, the Special Organization has no other side, WHAT DO YOU WANT me to do about that? I can not delete informations just because there is no other side, that would be hijacking an article to mislead the reader. As for the mediation, you killed that up by ignoring it, because obviously you knew that if this thing was to be passed there, you will have everything to lose.
Coming to McCarthy, the man is a joke, he participated in the Turkish government founded Armenian Institute in Ankara as aim to deny the Armenian genocide, he participated in the publication of Turkish ministry work regarding the Armenians, during an ATAA conference he has declared that he will be trying to change Turkish history, during a conference in Turkey, he even used the words “we're trying to rewrite history.” The man, after possibly realizing that even Turkish sources admit that the Armenians have been intentionally under counted, when he realized that there is records in Armenian archives of a very precise Armenian figure population, as precise as to present the last digit, he claimed that if those numbers were true, it would just mean that 250,000 more Armenians felt victim. Is there any serious academia that will take 250,000 death people as just numbers that you can exclude? You know what this means? It means, that McCarthy is trying to save his face my indirectly admitting that he might have done a mistake, but this is not just a simple mistake, it is nearly his life work. Let me explain what this means, this guys under counting of Armenian losses would be about 850,000 deaths... the same guy that literally write in the Turkish press that the Armenians stole Turkish lands... and claimed that the genocide was a “lie” not a mistake but a lie. This man methodology was reported being completely flawed, and Frédéric Paulin in his Doctoral research has shown how none of the four points to apply the Population Stability theory were respected. And here without indicating that McCarthy both received Turkish ITS and ARIT grants, because it is not only enough that he participate in Turkish government diplomatic publications. Comparing Dr. Wolfgang Gust with McCarthy is to compare apples with oranges, while McCarthy interpret, Gust publish the official German records of the time, which are report for internal consumption, and secret reports, Germany reporting its allies plan of extermination etc. Fadix 15:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just realised that Mr. Torque who claimed not wanting to participate has just posted in the archive section, many answer, I propose everyone to read the exchanges. I will be answering every single posts he makes. I decided to not slander him anymore and maintain calm, everyone shall read the racist person he is and how he slanders his oponments. I appologize, since because of this answer, it might take longer for me to work on the pages. Fadix 16:17, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He can edit his own arguments in archive, he can delete anything he posted, no conflict with wiki policy there. You cannot acuse him of being racist, thats a personal attack, refrain from persoal attacks. Even if one has Nazi propoganda on their user page tehy cant be decared racist. You cannot do that we dont allow that kind of attitide, you are new thats why people are leaving you alone. Know that tensions are rising. Several Admins are already aware how unproductive discussion is going on here. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have been away from Wikipedia, and am appalled. The article now has completely been done away with and replaced by Fadix's propaganda. It should be retitled, "FADIX'S ARMENIAN GENOCIDE." How can this happen? Here, a clear propagandist with ZERO tolerance and credibility has come in here like gangbusters, and with his running mouth has chased away some of the people who have tried to counter him. Of course; who can deal with such a frantic force?
In his zeal to legitimize his genocide and place it on equal footing with the Holocaust, he has introduced theories about "concentration camps." He has made a lot of wild claims based on the weasel facts of Vahakn Dadrian. Can the reader believe these unholy claims, such as "Other records from the Military tribunal, suggest gassing installations existed as well." For one thing, the hearsay that constitutes "suggest" is out of order when all we're interested in is genuine evidence. Secondly, that "military tribunal" was conducted with almost no due process and the primary objective was to place blame on the previous government. Moreover, the puppet Ottoman government that was under enemy occupation was warned by the British to come up with culprits, otherwise the Turkish nation would be treated severely under the Peace Conference. (The Ottomans complied as much as they could, and the British/Allies rewarded them with a death sentence for their nation.) Under these circumstances, no fair person could accept their findings as just. Even the British rejected them when they took a turn for judicial credibility with the Malta Tribunal.
If the 1919 kangaroo courts were not good enough for the anxious-to-convict British, they certainly are not good enough for encyclopedia authors who are solely interested in the truth. They are not acceptable as evidence on this page.
"Children were sent there under the pretext to take baths, but were poisoned instead." How convenient! Just like the Holocaust. What's lacking is REAL EVIDENCE. People with lack of scruples can easily come up with these horrible lies, and try to pass them off as the truth. How could so many Armenian orphans have survived, if the idea was to purposefully murder Armenian children?
"While the total number of victims that perished in all camps is hard to establish, it is by some sources estimated that close to a million would be a reasonable figure. This figure excludes Armenians who died in other ways..." So here we have a pre-war population of around 1.5 million, one million survived according to Armenians, And close to a million died through outright murder? Even when that many people weren't even relocated in the first place??? (The Armenians who lobbied General Harbord in 1919 said only half a million were relocated.) And when we add the number of Armenians who died in other ways, the "famine and disease" ways in which the MAJORITY of the Armenians died (like the bulk of the 2.5 million+ Turks/Muslims who died), how many Armenians were killed in total? I guess that would run into five million or so.
And the section "The Special organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa)" is outrageous. All of this is pure DADRIAN SPECULATION. "It must be noted as well, that physicians participated in the process of selection, where health professionals were appointed by the war ministry to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply a degree of savagery of killing that was required." Fanadix is actually trying to pass that nonsense off as a real fact?
TREAT THIS SHAM PAGE SERIOUSLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. IT WILL NOT LAST. It's the original article that will go under mediation. If the page was allowed to change, what is the purpose of mediation? Fanadix has already gotten everything he has hoped for and more. It is totally unacceptable.
Coolcat deserves special praise for possessing the fortitude of dealing with this unreasonable pharisee. Fanadix spills his beans on his original talk page: "I don't have much to say about me than maybe that I am allergic to the denial of the Armenian genocide and that I will fight it in Wikipedia until denialists give up." I have no doubt of his sincerity, because this is his life. No matter how much he tries to con us with his "humanitarian" claims that he is interested in other genocides and how many times he harbors no "NO PROPAGANDA OR POV" (Yes, he actually wrote that in Archives 10), his strategy is to pummel the readers with his "160 pages," utilizing all the weasel facts his Dadrians have accumulated through the years. He will lose no opportunity to discredit anything that comes his way. Nobody has the time or energy to deal with such a Fanadix. He could very well get what he's after; that's why the Armenians are far ahead in this debate, and why so many academicians mindlessly accept their propaganda as real fact. People on the other side of the fence, as myself, have much better things to do with life. What we're dealing with is pure, rabid obsession.
I have been away for over a week, and I didn't think the last Talk Page I remember would have been archived already, but Fanadix's incessant jawbone has turned this section into the "forum" he thrives on. Some of his nonsense needed to be countered, and I wondered how to handle that; adding the pages and pages of yore to the current talk page would have turned this page into the volume of seventy phone books, so I tacked on comments within the lines of the original discussions. (MGM requested we not go back into the archives, but that's presuming normal Wikipedia archives, not the forum this is turning into. In only a couple of days, there's a new archive!) It's already "old news," but the section we now need to concentrate on is the original, carefully cultivated page... the one that is supposed to be undergoing mediation.
Fanadix THINKS in his egomania that he has successfully countered the original article, but he has done no such thing. He has taken each section point by point in what is now Archives 10. (Which needs to be combined into Archives 11; the latter features repeat segments from other archive pages, and can be replaced by the second half of the overlong Archives 10. I tried to do it, but my computer kept freezing!) Here are some examples of how he has "succeeded":
Here is the value of Fanadix's "word": when I asked him to prove his assertion that Kamuran Gurun stated the relocation was "final and terminal," he provided the page number. Luckily, the book is online, and I gave instructions to the reader to find that very page. There is nothing on that page indicating the decision was "final and terminal." What it says on that page is that the Armenians were to be relocated. That's because the whole idea was for the Armenians to be relocated. The word used several times to describe the process is the very opposite of "final," and that word is "temporary"; and "terminal" is Fanadix's own unscrupulous editorialization. Yet, even when countered, with the evidence under our very noses, Fanadix still kept insisting in his big-mouthed reply that the author stated the decision was "final and terminal." Such is the level of his reason!
There is absolutely no sense in arguing history with this "Armenian Weasel Beast." (A nickname he bragged about, and I only embellished it by adding the kind of beast.) As he himself indicated somewhere in his 160 (now 1,600) pages, his first instinct is to try and discredit; the truth means nothing. He possesses the dogma of the worst religious fanatic.
I am sure the framer of Wikipedia never dreamt there could be such an unreasonable and determined force to contend with.
Again, it is the original page that we must contend with; that is the one called upon for mediation. The current one of unsupported, slanderous propaganda, where we are asked to accept Fanadix's word, the opinions/theories of others, is a travesty. I commend the brave souls who have been dealing with this nonsense; you all deserve medals. -- Torque March 24, 2005
At the root of genocide allegations lies the assumption: it is only the Armenian dead who matter. Never mind the Armenians directly murdered, with Russian help, more Turks/Muslims than the latter did onto them. The Turks simply aren't human enough to matter.
Fadix has gone out of his way trying to prove the 518,000 dead was closer to a number like 18, in his earlier testimony. Never mind that this sense of victimhood is a credo the Turks don't live by, while Armenians thrive on it. How can any person with humanity deny the crimes of the Armenians? But the Armenians have always denied their crimes. Their mass murderers like Dro and Antranik, as well as their latter day killer terrorists, are treated as heroes by the Armenian community. Fadix has promised to work on the Wikipedia ASALA page, continuing the trend.
It's a mindset. As an Armenian writer quoted by Ara Baliozian put so well: "What kind of people are we?...Instead of reason, blind instinct. Instead of common sense, fanaticism."
Since the Armenians like to claim they are the first Christian nation (as well as their apologists, like "The Genocide of the Armenians; The Tragedy of the oldest Christian People of the Word" Wolfgang Gust, whom Fadix praised above as a legitimate source) where are the Christian qualities of these Armenians who are so genocide obsessed? Why would anyone devote so much of his life to this century-old topic?
If Armenians are under so much despair, how about turning to a Christian way to cope? How about filling one's heart with love and compassion and hopefulness and happiness? That's what the Turks did after the war. Is there one Turkish family who wasn't affected by the chaos and ugliness and inhumanity perpetrated upon them by their enemies? But they did not care to harp on these destructive thoughts. They chose to forgive and forget. It's only with the revival of this genocide obsession, and the continuous slander that goes with it, that the Turks have finally come to realize silence does not work. Otherwise the Turks had let go long ago. Thanks to the Armenians, the horrendous crimes of their forefathers are now open for new generations of Turks to learn.
Jesus taught to forgive unconditionally, yet the Armenians have chosen the path of hatred, terrorism, antagonism and aggression. Is this healthy?
There have been some attempts to establish parallels with the Holocaust. This, after Israel itself does not recognize the Armenians' genocide. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres is on record for saying, "... Armenian allegations of genocide are 'meaningless' and that there is no similarity between the Holocaust and fate of the Armenians during the first World War...' '... What occurred to the Armenians was NOT a Genocide'. 'We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenian s went through but not a genocide'."
It is possible to respond by saying Israel is kowtowing to the Turks, as if Israel has been known to kowtow to any nation (not even the United States). But the above makes sense; in WWII Jews did not establish a combined force of 200,000 as Boghos Nubar tells us, almost all of whom came from the Ottoman Empire at one time or another; the Jews did not betray Germany; the Jews did not cooperate with the enemies of Germany, and the Jews certainly did not wage a campaign of ethnic cleansing against their fellow German citizens, hoping to establish a Jewish state on German soil.
This is why we must look at the BIG PICTURE and not be drowned in the statistics quoted by the Armenians, nearly all of which are based on speculation and are terribly unsubstantiated. One point to remember is the Armenians in the western portion of the Ottoman Empire were mostly unaffected by the relocation policy. Imagine conducting a genocide and ignoring the targeted people in the capital. How many German Jews in Berlin were exempt from Hitler's "Final Solution"? What about the ones from Munich or Frankfurt?
The Armenians who are very demanding and inflexible. For example, in Glendale, California, the Armenian "colony" (Hovannisian's word) have built up its numbers to 30%. With their influence and wealth has come the pocketing of the politicians. As a result, they got the city council to lower the flag to commemorate their genocide. This angered the community, because the American flag is not typically lowered for such occasions.
Then the Armenians used their influence to erect a genocide monument at public expense. A concerned reader from the local newspaper wrote:
"I do not feel that the decision to erect an Armenian Genocide monument on city property should be decided by the five men on City Council and a group of committee members. Between the flag-lowering fiasco and the current debate over the monument, this city is polarized as never before. The decision to erect a monument on city property should be left to the people of that city..."
Now doesn't that sound exactly like the genocide resolutions the Armenian Diaspora persuades governments to pass? A few bigoted and/or Armenian-catering politicians cast their votes on a historical episode they've only heard selective bits about from the "avalanche" of Armenian propaganda, and then suddenly it seems like the whole country or state has agreed upon the idea. This is so propagandists can point to these meaningless opinions and say to the unwary, You See? They Agree With Us!
A similar approach is used when this lie has been repeated so often that lazy or bigoted academicians have accepted it at face value. (It’s safer that way; who wants to be charged with being a "RACIST NAZI-LIKE FK," as Fadix called me?) So now the majority view has accepted this myth as the reality, and Stereotek can tell us this majority view is one of the "most important" facts.
More tellingly, from Glendale:
"...It's unfortunate that the leaders and spokespersons for (the Armenian) community feel the way HS (an Armenian) does. His views teach his community intolerance toward others. They teach his community to demean those that that don't agree with them. They teach his community to scream racism and hatred toward them just because they don't get their way. He teaches his community that there is only one way, the way he feels, and anyone that feels different is wrong. It teaches division rather than compromise. Compromise, (HS), is that so difficult to get? What a leader and spokesperson you are. Don't you see, the more you push this 'we won and the racists lost,' the sillier you look? Your colors are showing more and more. It's clear you have no interest in healing this community or finding a compromise. I find it amusing that you rally the Armenian community around an Armenian national issue, but debunk an American community when it rallies around something they may feel strongly about. I feel insulted being referred to as a 'ragtag group of self-described patriots' because I'm standing up for my beliefs. How dare you? ... It's clear that you don't care about the country you live in or its other residents, just your '30%.' I'm afraid, sir, that there are 70% here that are not Armenians, and maybe, just maybe, they don't all share your view and want to have it shoved down their throat..."
It's all there:
("You are neutral and I am not, thats your suggestion. Yout Truth is based on facts only I got a bunch of lies. Is that what you suggest? I am not accusing you of things why are you constantly acusimg me. This can be considered a personal attack you know." --Cool Cat My Talk 20:14, 19 Mar 2005)
When this genocide-obsessed pattern of the Armenians is pointed to, the best defense is to scream racist. But the ways of the Armenian colonies, whether in America or Canada and everywhere else the Diaspora has migrated to, follows a pattern that cannot be denied. We are simply up against a super-powered representative.
Epilogue: the genocide-obsessed Armenians got what they wanted by their typically underhanded manipulations, upsetting the majority of their fellow citizens by having their tax dollars spent on a genocide monument. There is a quality absent with such behavior, and that quality is: virtue. -- Torque, Mar 24 2005 (substantially edited for personal attacks -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:22, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC) (and I don't claim to have gotten them all, sorry, just trying to strike a happy medium between arguable point and personal attack)
I am patiently waiting the administration to come here and read Torque posts. I will of course answer any single points he made, it would take of course some time... but people could witness how he play with numbers he has no idea of... when I answer him, and then, probably he will claim having done it without knowing it, like he always do when he is exposed of manipuling data. As I see, the none-existing Goshnak was still brought out.
Anyway, if anyone want to report Torque, do it in your own discression, but I ask that person to not involve me, I am of course against his banning even if he has times and again abused Wikipedia rules. The reason for that is simple, he's the only supposed "other side" we officialy have, if it happens that he is banned, I know what will happen, the genocide entry will be spammed, the entry will be deleted etc. etc. I could perhaps ask something to the administration though, and that would be to edit Torque posts, by deleting racist and personnal statments, because of course if it happens that some Armenians start reading "Typical Armenian style" "So Armenian" etc. they might get offensed and start answering back, I am sure that no one is interested with that.
I apologize for the reast of the readers, since my contributation has been halted by Torque attempts and that I have to now return and expose him.
Thanks for your patience, and again, I apologize.
Regards
PS: I ask readers, should I answer first the most recent of his distortions? I have answered quite a few on the archive 10... but I was wondering if I should answer those first until I come here. Since I suppose there are reader, I guess they as well have interest on which points they want to be discussed first. Fadix 19:08, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Added Fadix response again, after editing out a couple of personal comments. The response is clearly as much on topic as Torque's rants about the Armenian people.
Fadix, I don't think you should waste your time responding to Torque's hateful attacks against Armenians in general. Such comments doesn't really need an answer, and they are clearly off-topic. If he should want to participate in a serious discussion about the article, then it is of course a new situation... Hate speech on the other hand, doesn't deserve an answer. Stereotek 07:49, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Torque was ranting about Armenian people as there is a "Diplomatic" sphere in the equation, The countries that have officialy recognised the Armenian genocide did not recognise on their own, they got significant pressure for various organisations. He is refering to that I believe. His attitude is not nice, but neither the attitude he argues with. -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I want to ignore what happened so far, for your sake. Lets start argueing again, and yes please summerise. I will be introducing this format (I copy pasted my default "mediation" template). I am not a mediator as Fadix will not accept it. If I refer to myself in the format I inserted below as a mediator know that it is part of the template. I am too lazy ro create a new one.
I suggest no one touch the article now on untill we reach concensiuses, while being bold sounds fun, we will end up with nothing productive if you guys and us start reverting. I already declared 2 cases, I commented out items that we will be discussing, nothing is gone just commented, You are welcome to comment out anything and discuss here as well. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and some Western scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. The statistics regarding how many Armenians perished varies and there are no official numbers, but most Western sources advance a million and over [...] What is refered as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied cases of what is called genocide and is often compared with the Holocaust.
Yes Coolcat - I could just as legitimatly say that about any denier of the Holocaust. So one historian disputes that the Holocaust should be considered a genocide. This we cannot present the fact that all other serious historians and more accept that it was a genocide because of the existance of the views of this one person. How can you believe that your position is th valid one> I cannot comprehend your mentality on this - what can I say? -- THOTH 18:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
While the total number of victims that perished in all camps is hard to establish, it is by some sources estimated that close to a million would be a reasonable figure. This figure excludes Armenians who died in other ways, but may include the Special organizations participation in the events; the majority of the excluded losses are recorded in Bitlis and Sivas.
Yes or no?
The Ottoman Empire had set up a recorded twenty-five to twenty-six of what is often reffered as "relocation camps or "concentration camps": (Deir-Zor, Ras Ul-Ain, Bonzanti, Mamoura, Intili, Islahiye, Radjo, Katma, Karlik, Azaz, Akhterim, Mounboudji, Bab, Tefridje, Lale, Meskene, Sebil, Dipsi, Abouharar, Hamam, Sebka, Marat, Souvar, Hama, Homs and Kahdem), under the command of Çukru Kaya, one of the right hands of Talaat Pasha.
The majority of of the camps were situated mostly near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some was only temporary transit camps. After reports of deaths, the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, While Del-El, and Ras Ul-Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days. Other camps were only used as temporary mass burial zones (Radjo, Katma, and Azaz) and were closed by Fall 1915.
The majority of the guards inside all the camps were Armenians.
Even though nearly all the camps (all major ones were) were open air, according to records, some were not. Other camps existed, accoding to the Military court, there where irregular Red Crescent camps that were used to kill by morphine injection, (two of Saib (Health inspector) colleagues, Drs. Ragib and Vehib testified during the court) and where the bodies were thrown into the Black sea. In other instances, according to records, there were some small-scale killing and burning camps, where the Armenian population was told to present itself in a given area, and burned en mass. Other records from the Military tribunal, suggest gassing installations existed as well. For instance, during the Military tribunal, testimonies in the effect that Dr. Saib and Nail, an Ittihadist deputy, were heading two school buildings used as child extermination camps. Both Saib and Nail were allegedly in charge of providing the list of children who were to be distributed among the Muslim populace; the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation. The Children were sent there under the pretext to take baths, but were poisoned instead.
Coolcat, I will be reverting every edits you make, you are a vandalist of articles, you are ignored. - Unsigned fadix
You cannot kick me out of the discussion, you have no authority, right, power. You reverted spelling fixes, Continue abusing revert power, I dare ya. -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Do a history comparasion, you are not acting in good failth. I made edits and removed them on my own. If you arent doing history comparasion how can you declare me of a vandal? You had no idea what I changed. -- Cool Cat My Talk 01:51, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
When this user complains about lack of good faith, it is with a cynicism that disgraces all of us. -- Wetman 02:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I introduced this color sceme for a reason. It makes it easier on how we are thinking. I changed several of you guys comments to illustrate the concept. If you are irritated I am sorry. Colors makes it easier. If you are for a spesific argument you should use color green, if you are against color red, if you are neither for or against use color brown. Also use this indenting unindented, for, 1 indend (ie :) against 2 indents (ie ::) neither for or against.
You will be discussiong this, there is no way out. I introduced something we can discuss easier, if You have a better sugestion let me know. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You think mediator will just declare your views as neutral and kick me away? We do not need a mediator, mediation service is over booked. The kind of a mediator you will get is a person who will hear my views and your views, make suggestions, he wont be able to dictate anyhting. I suggested we start analyzing article form scratch. You dont want to discuss. If you dont want to discuss, why are you here? -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:51, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Will you drop requesting that article be one sided? -- Cool Cat My Talk 03:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) I already answered you. N-E-I-T-H-E-R! A one sided article is unacceptable. -- Cool Cat My Talk 08:12, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Instead of article wide discussion why dont you refer to smaller point, if you cant back down on any point, I cant either. -- Cool Cat My Talk 04:05, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I will not. That is irrelevant. Time will tell, we are already discussing the article, I will not let it stay one sided. I cant give you a clearer answer.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 20:42, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 03:05, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have been reading this section - article and talk - for several weeks now and I really think that most here have lost their sanity on this issue. Really - I can't believe the poisoned environment and the fact that the discussion has gone so far off base. Specifically I can certainly understand Fadix's frustrations - while at the same time understanding that he can be difficult to deal with (not that his heart or knowledge is wrong - it isn't at all - he is mostly right on the money IMO - its just his approach is perhaps a bit caustic). But ultimately I have to blame Mr Cool Cat for failing to properly understand this issue and for creating an environment that is clearly unacceptable and is not conducive for presenting actual facts or the truth.
Before I continue I wish to state that I am somewhat new to posting here and don't quite understand the dynamics of it - where this will even end up and how it will look - so bear with me please. I also don't quite understand the proposed color scheme - and perhaps this is a place to start. From what I gather posts are to be made as either "pro" "against" or "Neither pro or against" - well I just don't see at all how this will work and I can't imagine the same approach being attempted in either the Holocaust section or in any other genocide section (where the perpetrators are given – as you will – “equal time” to deny and/or present justification for their actions.
Face it Cool cat - aside from a very small but vocal contingent (based entirely within or beholden to the current Turkish government) there really is no debate concerning the Armenian Genocide (as being a genocide and in acceptance of certain basic facts) - no serious debate certainly. It is not at all an "Armenian Position" any more then if someone where to term affirmation of the Holocaust a "Jewish Position" - so please - if you really feel the need to interject - get yourself properly educated first. I find it curious that you seem very quick to accept the various posts by Tourque as factual - when his sources and presentation are clearly quite questionable and where they are basically unsupported from any broad academic nor are they generally properly sourced or put into proper context - yet you discount the very broadly accepted, supported and well known accounts and analysis that Fadix as provided - again assigning each as a "perspective" when this clearly is not the case and does not apply. What you term the “Armenian perspective” is in fact the accepted academic and historical perspective/position – what you deem the “Turkish Perspective” is just that – and no more. During the years that these events occurred there were hundreds and hundreds of newspaper articles and eyewitness accounts and reports that tracked and corroborated the acts of genocide that occurred and were perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and various (non-political) international aid groups mobilized to assist in providing for those who were dying and suffering. The evidence supporting the Genocide thesis is so overwhelming and supported among scholars that to deny such is akin to denying any other basically accepted and well supported set of historic events and is equivalent to questioning if the earth truly revolves around the sun. The same is true for these exaggerated charges that there was some sort of civil war occurring and that the victimized Armenian community had any real power to fight back as the Turkish propaganda (from the time and continually being developed) attempts to assert. There is no factual evidence to support this counter-contention.
I have no issue with presenting a "Turkish version" of events - as such - in an addendum - and the whole issue of the history of Armenian attempts at recognition and Turkish attempts of denial could and should be an addendum to any discussion of this Genocide - as the fact that this is occurring and that deniers such as Tourque and the Turkish Government have managed to deflect the issues. It is also important to note that the Turkish government’s continued well funded and unrelenting campaign of denial (combined with its strategic position and its political leverage) have made it difficult for many nations to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide as such – but this does not in any way mean that was not truly a genocide as it meets every possible definition for such. Additionally the official Turkish campaign to deny that it was genocide essentially continues the campaign of the Genocide itself against the Armenians as a people (and this point is widely accepted among genocide scholars) and this means that this is a living ongoing event and not something that is just purely historical. A presentation of the historical and ongoing attempts on the part of Turkey to officially downplay, deny and (internally) avoid discussion of even the historical Armenian presence in Anatolia should as well be a key factor in this discussion. Likewise readers should be aware that the current laws in Turkey prescribe a penalty of death to anyone within Turkey who affirms the Armenian Genocide (I seem to recall you making a comment that most Turks do not believe it to be a genocide - well - one needn't not just wonder or speculate why this is the case). Additionally they have maintained quite a narrow and self serving educational program for their people that ensures that they have no mention of nor certainly any debate concerning the allegations or issue of the Genocide – in fact they teach their people a clearly concocted version of history that absurdly claims genocide against the Turks on the part of the Armenians. And as unbelievable as this sounds they have built monuments within their nation to this effect. Can you imagine how disgusting such a thing is to the families of Armenian victims of the Genocide (and anyone concerned with social justice and/or with any kind of mind or heart?) and how truly absurd such contentions are to any real student of history who can at the very least see that there are tens of millions of Turks remaining in Anatolia and a few thousand Armenians living their now - at best.
Mr. Cool Cat you clearly have no clue concerning the actual history and facts concerning this Genocide, nor can you apparently separate fact from fiction in this matter - I respectfully suggest that you remove yourself from any kind of moderatorship concerning this issue. Please again consider that if this were a discussion of the Holocaust/Shoa - and you decided as moderator that a presentation of the Nazi propaganda against the Jews and subsequent revisionist history denying that a Holocaust took place should be presented on equal footing with the very well known and accepted history of such as we all know and accept it - think how well this would be received and think how the victims and their descendents might feel about your supposed call for “fairness”. This issue is no different. So I suggest that you let Mr Fadix - who clearly understands the events of the Genocide a great deal and who seemingly possesses an amazing collection of material and sources concerning the Genocide - write the article (the latest attempt seems pretty close in many regards). And really I think Wikipedia should be grateful for his interest and attention to this matter. He is clearly capable of writing an accurate and detailed account. I think he should better footnote and source his presentation however and that others should be given opportunity to input and revise (if there is some consensus that it requires such). Then an addendum coving any alternate takes can be added as well as additional discussion on these talk pages. But it is very clear that Fadix is accurately portraying the underlying facts/truths and history of the Armenian Genocide. He should be allowed to present such.
What may follow and provide value are additional discussions of the environment that led to the Genocide to include causation, rationale and other related issues (very much can be said for and presented concerning why Turks may have wanted to eliminate Armenians/the Armenian nation within their empire – on a great many levels). And there would be value in a discussion of various events that occurred prior to and following the conduct of the actual Genocide itself (including the very revealing military tribunals conducted by the Ottomans in 1919 and the subsequent efforts by Ataturk’s nationalists to avoid the repercussions of the Treaty of Sevres and ensure that Armenians and other minorities were no longer a factor in modern Turkey). Other items of interest might be providing a chronology of the deportations and massacres - a really good one seems to be lacking in many presentations – and it would go far in promoting a good understanding of the systemic, well planned and organized, and widespread nature of the deportations and massacres. Also useful would be some side discussions regarding the actual number who died/were killed (and why there is uncertainty/debate) and what happened to those who escaped or why some were untouched, and perhaps some presentation of the massacres (and genocide) of Assyrians and Pontic Greeks that occurred at this time as well. Another worthwhile sidebar would be a discussion of Turkish deaths from war and conditions of war and other related failings of the Young Turks movement and the rise of Ataturk and the Nationalists as relates to the position of the non-Turkish minorities in Anatolia. An accurate presentation of the role of Armenian revolutionary political groups – some of their initial ties to the Young Turk movement and the dynamics of their split and why the Young Turks would then want to make villains/scapegoats of them; as well as the extent of their insurgent activities in Eastern Anatolia may all prove enlightening and relevant side discussions. These various issues as well as a number of others might all be subjects for additional related sidebars for presentation and discussion. Just my suggestions.
The approach you (Cool Cat) suggest concerning an approach to properly present this issue is totally unworkable and unacceptable IMO. Again, the issue of whether this was genocide is not really a debatable one – there are not two legitimate “sides” to be presented. All serious unbiased scholars and academics that are aware of the determining events accept it as genocide. It is fundamentally acknowledged that the Young Turks planned genocide against the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire. The evidence clearly documents that they successfully carried out such a genocide and that the great majority of victims were essentially an unarmed and overwhelmingly peaceful and innocent minority population within the Empire who happened to be in their way (in a number of respects) and who also had property and valuables for the taking (certainly a motivating factor that was well proven in Ottoman tribunals after world war I ended). An overwhelming body of documentary evidence supports these conclusions. And the lack of Armenians in Turkey/Anatolia today – where they had lived and flourished for thousands of years - is further evidence that a genocide indeed occurred --[THOTH] 21:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 08:19, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am responding to the points Coolcat raises above.
He says this "Story has 3 sides actualy,"
Actually, this is not a "story", this is history. Perhaps history can be told in different ways, but only one thing actually happened. This is what you seem to fail to accept. You seem to think that if two sides (or three) have different versions, they are all equal. What everyone is saying here is that this is obviously not so. Only one thing happened, and by and large, it is quite clear. POV does not mean that every imaginary tale can be given equal weight. Sharon cannot come here and write Israel is not occupying the West Bank and Gaza, nobody can come and write that Azerbaijan has no oil, Neo-Nazis cannot come and say there was no Holocaust. What needs to be understood is that only one party denies there was a genocide - the Turkish govt. The only reasons they deny it are 1) misplaced pride and 2) fear of reparations. What they should instead be thinking is to find their honor and admit to the wrongs of the past, and if they can make some amends, to do so.
Finally, nothing written here should offend Turks at all. Why should they be offended by anything that has happened in the past? The only thing they should be offended by (on this topic) is that their government is denying the truth in their good name. That is wrong and fortunately many Turks are beginning to speak out now that censorship is loosening up. Genocide recognition by Turkey is just a matter of time, but in the meantime a lot of minds there that have not been exposed to anything not approved by the Turkish Government to read or see or hear must be opened up.
Oh wait, no, one last thing. I just want to point out that even countries (like the US) which do not fully recognize the genocide on a nationwide level, when they debate the issue in their legislatures, NEVER debate whether or not there was a genocide. That is ALWAYS accepted by ALL parties. The debate is between those who want to recognize the truth officially, and those who do not want to offend the Turkish government. When Bush issues his April 24th statement, he uses the definition of Genocide, but not the word. When the Turkish Ambassador writes about the genocide in private, he does not call it an alleged genocide, he calls it a genocide...
Everyone knows. Everyone agrees. Things are moving progressively in one direction...
-- RaffiKojian 15:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Response to “Guideline”
Good points Raffi. I agree with all that you have said. (with some caveat that I am not so optimistic as you are!) - I also think that the reasons for Genocide denial are not so simple and are multifaceted and that admission of such is admission of a lie that is much more far reaching as it pertains to the (ethnically clean as it were) foundations of the Turkish Republic itself and the view that Turks have concerning themselves as victorious victims from World War I - and more...the Turkish society has been intentionally kept in the dark and immature on these issues and for many reasons...reasons that IMO go far beyond just the Genocide (and admission of such) itself.
It is clear that by Coolcat's definition of how this article on the Genocide is to be presented that there is no real possibility for such (a truthful/accurate account). Most Turks (it seems - at least most vocal Turks) are offended by the insinuation that there was a Genocide - thus by definition Coolcat is telling us that we cannot make reference to what occurred as genocide. Secondly - most Turks - again it seems (and in my first post I discussed why) are offended and disbelieving of the facts of the Genocide and that the Young Turks killed so many innocents - they do not accept this and they go to great lengths to deny that this occurred. Anyway - I would love to contribute to this effort - it is (could be) perhaps a great place to present a nice (and I agree: unbiased and without rhetoric) summary of events - however it will be impossible with Coolcat's approach. As Raffi has said - all "sides" are not equal - it is impossible to present them as such. A presentation of the false (and at best highly exaggerated) claims from the Turkish side (as truth) will do nothing at getting to the real history and in fact will be a great disservice. I do not wish to be involved in such an effort. In fact I suggest that we let Mr. Tourque write the entire section and let him say whatever he wishes. (and just leave it as disputed or what have you) - anyone with any sense will understand what has occurred...
Some additional points - why would a present day Turkish newspaper be considered as some kind of a better or more accurate source of information then what scholars and the historical record present? And how are you Coolcat - qualified to judge? Of course they won't say it was genocide - its illegal to say so remember? Etc However I should add that I welcome the news that this issue is perhaps being presented (in Turkey) without the usual rhetoric. Still – one can understand the constraints and that even at best it will likely not present the “true” underlying rationales and events – as many of these concepts are difficult to present in such a format as well as in regards to the legal issues and such as mentioned earlier.
I highly dispute your "3 sides" argument having any validity. You call the Armenian views (a misnomer to begin with - it is essentially the world’s view etc) "propaganda" - and you claim that by serving equal parts of the Turkish and "Armenian" "propaganda" that you will arrive at the (NPOV) truth???? Am I the only one who sees the utter absurdity of this on a great many levels? (I address this more towards the end as well)
Pontian and particularly Assyrian Genocides do certainly warrant mention and linking with Armenian Genocide issue. Perhaps (Coolcat) you will moderate these sections as well and accept the "Turkish position" that these people were likewise traitorous (and deserving of elimination)…but perhaps it was the murderous Armenians with their grand army, concepts of racial/religious manifest destiny and history of massacre and such who killed them and drove them from their lands. Yeah – must be it…
Coolcat - pure and simple it is clear to me that it is likely that you are a (very slick) apologist for the Turks and that your mission is essentially to filibuster and outlast Fadix etc on this issue to ensure that essentially a great deal of doubt is cast on the truth and that the discredited "Turkish version" is elevated as essentially equal to the actual historical record (which it is not). You actions and position here lead me to no other conclusion.
I should add that I have long championed sympathy with the idea that to properly understand the context of the Armenian Genocide it is necessary to understand both the Turkish perspective (legitimate and otherwise) as well as all aspects of the (chaotic and highly stressed) environment (and related history) that led to this issue coming to a head as it did - with tragic consequences to the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire/Anatolia. This does not mean one accepts the propaganda lines (as you are proposing) - one must deal with the facts and events as best they can be known and delve past the rhetoric (which does exist to some degree on both sides – however it is clear which presentation is more truthful and accepted by serious and knowing people as in line with the actual facts). Still - the fact is that these events meet every known definition of Genocide and that there is no valid contention of civil war nor can there be any question that what occurred was mass murder – planned and committed by the state (or more accurately a party apparatus that had control of the state) and that it was committed against a people who were overwhelmingly peaceful and innocent (and largely incapable of defending themselves) - etc - these are the essential historical facts and they cannot just be thrown aside and the revisionist and unsupported version accepted as history. Certainly there are many aspects and details that warrant presentation for a thorough understanding of the specifics, the causation and context – but essentially this is what occurred and what needs to be presented.
Again - your (Coolcat) willingness to do so (obscure the historical record by accepting obvious revisionist propaganda) is testament to your inappropriateness to moderate this effort – what can I say? And again - what you propose is the equivalent of neo-nazi views being held equal with - well everyone else’s! Would this in any way be acceptable in a presentation of the Holocaust? Is this approach even remotely being taken there or in any other Genocide section? And its like allowing Biblical creationists to present their version of biology as a legitimate scientific alternative to the Theory of Evolution....I mean what should they do over there - try to come up with a version that melds each "side" and present it as the compromise (non offense to anyone) version? Would this lead to an accurate portrayal of (the scientific facts of) evolutionary biology? No! Clearly not! And neither will your approach lead to a truthful presentation of the Armenian Genocide! -- THOTH 16:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is in black & white. — Davenbelle 10:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
You cannot edit what I post. Please don't. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You should take User:Tony Sidaway's advice and "walk away from this one".
— Davenbelle 00:40, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Let us assume that Mr Coolcat is just purely ignorant concerning this issue - and not actually malevolent. I believe that without a proper understanding of genocide denial one might fall into its trap as he apparently has. Some of us who have dealt with genocide and holocaust issues are familiar with the pitfalls but one who is not may unwittingly become their instrument. Giving him the benefit of the doubt – this is what I think is occurring here. Obviously the approach he advocates is completely unacceptable because it exactly falls into the denial trap – this is an exact case example. It is clear that there is no possibility of acceptable resolution as long as he holds firm to the approach that would be completely unacceptable in any other genocide subject area. If we have no ability to remove him then we must educate him and hope for the best. Otherwise I would advocate just boycotting the article and instead concentrate on making other genocide related contributors aware of what we are up against.
I want to start by posting some excepts and a link to a recent genocide denial conference that was held at UCLA in February.
http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=21398
excerpts: The People Who Cover Up Genocide UCLA panel looks at people and governments who deny or explain away the Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, the killing of Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994, and the ongoing massacres in the Darfur provinces of Sudan. … Before looking at the motives of the Holocaust denial movement, Richard Eaton discussed their methods. While there are some outright lies, he said, they more commonly take isolated facts out of context and present them to mean something very different. This is usually done in a context that attempts to sound scholarly and avoids overt anti-Semitic declarations. "They pick very specific items out of the vast subject of the Holocaust and say this didn't happen that way and so forth." The deniers' strategy has been to pressure legitimate historians to debate them in public, as though their antifactual positions have equal validity with the body of established historical facts and accredited university scholars … The Institute for Historical Review and similar Holocaust denial groups write heavily footnoted essays with a scholarly tone. "All it takes to dispel this is to dig into their footnotes and see what the original sources actually say. But they know that the good majority of people are not going to do this." (my note concerning the above: it is difficult for us “amature” part timers to devote the proper time and effort to debunk this sort of thing. This is one reason why Coolcat’s approach is a “no-win” – it will not be possible to debunk everything (though Fadix has done an amazing and highly credible job – probably about as much effort as can be expected) more: http://yessem.blogspot.com/2005/03/patterns-of-genocide-denial-1.html http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish_distortions_denial.htm The following link is to a report on a Genocide denial conference from 2002 (selected excerpts to follow): (note these are not Armenians but genocide scholars who are fully accepting that it is a genocide and that it is denied much as Holocaust deniers do…): http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jan_2002/history001.html The conference moderator was Professor Roger Smith, Professor of Government at the College of William and Mary and a renowned expert on Genocide Studies. In addition to teaching and publishing widely on various aspects of genocide and its denial, Professor Smith is also the co-founder and former president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars. Formally opening the conference, Professor Smith began by briefly mentioning the impressive and diverse panel, comprised of a group of prominent experts including Samantha Power, the Executive Director Harvard University's Carr Center for Human Rights Policy; Professor Peter Ronayne of the University of Virginia and the Federal Executive Institute; Professor Christopher Simpson of American University's School of Communications; and Professor Henry Theriault, the Coordinator of Worcester State College's Center for the Study of Human Rights and visiting Professor at Clark University's Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies. … Professor Christopher Simpson… presentation featured four main points: establishing that denial is functional, that genocide creates its own unique constituency, that denial is rooted in geopolitics, and that "standing up" for genocide recognition is crucial. Formulating three elements of genocide, Simpson explained that genocide comprises the targeting of a group, most often by race or ethnicity, the intent to destroy the targeted group, and finally, the acts carrying out the group destruction. Based on the foundation of these elements, the Armenian Genocide is "a genocide without doubt," declared Simpson. Simpson then turned to the historical record of the Armenian Genocide, establishing the factors that prevented the rehabilitation of the Turkish perpetrators and encouraged the bystanders in genocide denial. He specifically cited the fact that although the Treaty of Sevres of 1920 and the Treaty of Lausanne attempted to effectively remodel the region after World War I, the legacy created by allowing much of the Turkish political and military elite responsible for the Armenian Genocide to retain power in modern Turkey can be seen in genocide denial to this day. He went on to show that the failure to reform Turkey and the Allied policies allowing the institutions of Ottoman Turkey to maintain power in the new modern Turkey transformed by Attaturk forged the foundation for the denial of the Armenian Genocide. This failure also prevented any real justice for the Armenians and led to a strong, nationalist Turkish constituency for genocide denial. Concluding by stressing the need to "stand up" for recognition of the Armenian Genocide, Professor Simpson demonstrated the methods of denial propaganda and educated the audience on the best means to combat such revisionism. He explained that the modern approach of genocide denial is through exploiting doubt and fostering skepticism, citing the common refrain "let's leave the Armenian Genocide to the historians." This propaganda of denial, Simpson urged, must be met with truth and opposed with logic. He added that there should be no denial of issues of principled, established historical fact such as the Armenian Genocide. … Professor Henry Theriault, presenting the case of Japanese wartime atrocities in East Asia from 1931-1945, with a look at comparative dimensions of denial. Theriault, no stranger to the Armenian-American community, teaches at Worcester State College and Clark University and conducted research in Japan comparing the denials of the Japanese atrocities with the Holocaust and the Armenian and other genocides. He is the author of numerous scholarly articles, including "Universal Social Theory and the Denial of Genocide" in the June 2001 issue of the Journal of Genocide Research. The Japanese atrocities, according to Theriault, were no different than other genocides and he cited the ongoing Japanese denial as sharing commonalties with the Turkish effort to deny the Armenian Genocide. He established the pattern of omission and distortion practices by many Japanese governments and prevalent in much of the Japanese media. Theriault also pointed to the similarities between the lack of justice in the aftermath of the Turkish and Japanese cases, mainly due to the influence of geopolitics. Theriault detailed the informal "network of denial" and even the emergence of so-called "celebrity" deniers, such as the mayor of Tokyo, engaged in historical revisionism. He noted that the fight against genocide denial as seen in the Japanese case is an ongoing fight, with the Turkish denial being only one of many dangerous trends of state-sponsored denial. (note: I really must check the Rape of Nanking entry in Wikipedia to see how the Japanese “side” is being presented…) Official Turkish campaign of denial exposed: http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/Princeton_Turkey.html And this piece concerning denials of the Holocaust (primarily questioning of existence of gas chambers for killing…) may prove illustrative: http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92b/ and same author as above on revisionism: http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet85a/ And from the Free Dictionary (who seem to have no compunction whatsoever at labeling it a genocide): http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Genocides%20in%20history Turkey (1914–1923) genocides by the Young Turk government Approximately 0.6–1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were killed (some sources cite much higher figures). The Turkish government officially denies that there was any genocide, claiming that most of the Armenian deaths resulted from armed conflict, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War. Approximately 300,000–600,000 Pontian Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were killed, and several hundred thousand others exiled. The Turkish government denies there was any genocide despite evidence to the contrary, instead blaming the wars with Greece which took place around the same time for the millions of deaths. See also: Armenian Genocide http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Genocide+denial BTW – here is a site that is for the prevention of all genocides. It is not an Armenian site. It has a very nice collection of scholarly and media sources that clearly present and accept that what occurred was genocide. There are sections on all other 20th century genocides besides the Armenian one as well. Note the link to Turkish sources on the Armenian Genocide page. http://www.preventgenocide.org/
http://preventgenocide.org/edu/pastgenocides/ottoman/resources/
Anyway – enough for now – I welcome others to add to this. Perhaps we’ll get this boy edumacated eh?
So you suggest that I leave the article in your capable hands and you will present it in a completely unbiased and Neutral way, and you have complete understanding of NPOV as soon as you joined wikipedia and complete knowlege on how contraversial articles are written? You suggest that anyone who thinks the Armenian Genocide's cassification as genocide be approached with suspicion be slienced. You mean you do not want any oposition while discussing the article. I am sorry but if noone is saying "No", noone is thinking. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 01:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To do this you cannot start asuming either thesis is a fact. I also suggest we provide archive numbers for any evidence for any party to go and get the archives at will. Web sites and books are not historic evidence, may be used to determine the language of the article. I want to know which archive suggests what. -- Cool Cat My Talk 20:53, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Google suggests: "Your search - Oghlum Ghonushma - did not match any documents" can you elaborate, no spelling suggestions either. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:06, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You can't make any progress in editing this article while certain parties continue to use reverting as a means of keeping their preferred version. Accordingly, and on long consideration of a request made some days ago, I have protected the article. Please discuss your differences on this article with civility and when they're resolved the protection can be removed. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:19, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please identify any lies in the article and I'll remove them. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well I can see a lot of accusations of sock puppetry and lying, and frankly I wish both sides would stop these accusations because they'll not make the article any better.
So you've said that the following are in the current version of the article and are untrue:
I've removed those references now. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:16, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK – Ms Coolcat then? j/k…sorry…Have I offended? I’m sorry – not intentional. :) A couple of things…I don’t think I ever offered to write your article – though I do think I could do so and from a non POV and unbiased perspective – though – with your apparent biases – you might not indeed agree (considering that you believe use of the term genocide is unwarranted and I believe that anyone who believes such is either ignorant or is a genocide denier or both – but I am open to someone truly making the case – based on fact – that it was not genocide. However, I have never seen any legitimate contention of the use of this word to describe what occurred...and neither really can I – knowing the facts – imagine that this is possible – but Ok – show us…).
And while I would be honored to assist or to input into this article I cannot in good conscience perpetuate your flawed approach that gives platform to deniers. I can see that this will just go around and around with no resolution. And while I could write an appropriate summary article I have not the time to create such from scratch (anytime in the near term that is) and I think we are blessed with someone who clearly has the time, inclination, knowledge, sources and capability to put such a thing together – Fadix. Now perhaps his approach may seem to you to be biased or such – and I can concede that there may be areas he has not presented to the degree of depth and with the broadness of perspective that I would prefer and other areas he has emphasized/highlighted that I perhaps would not – but fundamentally I believe that what Fadix is presenting is based entirely in fact and is accepted by historians as accurate and I see no overt bias – only factual presentation consistent with events that are known (by scholars/historians) and accepted as legitimate historical information. So yes – my position would be to let the most qualified available person take the cut and then let others add/modify based on support/consensus and however it is done here. Clearly Mr Fadix is the most qualified person contributing to this process at this time and should be allowed to take the lead in developing the article. I am new to Wikipedia and am admittedly uncertain how this is done – so I wish to take the time to learn before interjecting in the article itself (so I have never edited there – it is unclear to me if you are accusing me of doing such).
As for your other assertions – and I admit it is not clear to me if you are referring to me or someone else – but it seems as if your comments are addressed to me so I shall attempt to answer.
Are your criticizing me for being polite and civil? I don’t understand. Am I violating Wikipedia etiquette or are you just disappointed that you have no legitimate reason to silence me?
I have never edited your “talk” comments to my knowledge unless I have inadvertently done so – again I am just trying to figure out how this works – so its possible I may have done something by mistake. Same with cut lines comment. Again, I have been signing everything I have posted to my knowledge.
I understand this is an online Encyclopedia. Thus I have refrained from injecting on the article page at this time. I feel that there are very serious issues in regards to the presentation that need to be addressed before a proper article can be presented. Thus I am posting my comments and links to information – for your benefit – in hopes of convincing you that your approach is invalid. As far as I am concerned that is what these talk pages are for – at least in part – I would think – am I wrong in thinking this?
Unfortunately it seems clear that you have not given one bit of consideration to the validity of my objections – nor does it seem that you have taken the time to review the links I posted the other day on denial and revisionism. Again it seems that you have staked out your position (from whatever motivation) and you refuse to modify it even when there is evidence that indicates it is flawed and unworkable. Again – genocide denial is a well-known phenomenon that is practiced by apologists for all genocides and their pattern is very similar. What is different here in this section is that you are providing a platform for such and are entirely taking the denialist friendly approach that facilitates seemingly legitimate non-scholarly attacks which do nothing to reach truth but in fact obscure it. What you’re doing essentially amounts to something bordering on the criminal – and I say this in all seriousness. It would not be tolerated in the Holocaust section or the Nanking Massacre section or the Cambodian genocide, Rwandan Genocide or any other similar section. I have provided links to websites where genocide scholars specifically address this issue. You obviously are completely ignoring the validity of this position that is accepted by pretty much all scholars who are knowledgeable of it and you apparently have no desire to even attempt to understand it. How then can you hold your position as valid and worthy of consideration as the accurate approach to presentation of the Armenian Genocide section of an encyclopedia?
You wrongly claim that in my/our(?) position that I/we are somehow suppressing the truth. It is you who are encouraging the inclusion of untruth in this section. Again - can you imagine that your approach and someone who holds your beliefs would be allowed to prevail in the Holocaust section? Likewise you cannot be allowed to control things here – it is just that simple. This is why you are being opposed with such vehemence. We are not (I certainly am not) attempting to suppress legitimate debate and certainly not the inclusion of relevant factual information – but consider this - would Nazi critiques concerning the Jews or sidebar accusations against the Jews be considered legitimate in a presentation of the Holocaust? Would anything that is presented as an attempt to justify (or even "just" deny) the Holocaust be acceptable? And look at the racial accusations/approach and horrible slandering language used by this torque in addition to the use of known denialist tactics. His comments are indeed offensive. And you make reference to Armenians and others exhibiting “hate the Turks” mentality? I have yet to see this in any of Fadix or anyone else’s posts here – only the opposite on the part of torque – whom you insist to get an equal voice here. So why do you make such claims – just because they object to your hijacking this section in support of a true hate monger and obfuscator of the truth? I can see no other reason for you to make this claim.
You say that this section should not “insult or accuse” - well these are entirely different things. First of all you insult all Armenians and all believers in human rights and the truth by giving platform to denilaists. All legitimate scholars accept the Armenian Genocide as such – can you not appreciate the truth of this fact? What more must we provide you to prove this that we haven’t already done? (and this is in part illustrates the difficulty of developing such a thing on the internet – deciding the legitimacy of presentations and how to include non-web based material etc). And secondly – yes – the Turks are justifiably accused. I really don’t know what else I can say about this….-- THOTH 17:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh and thank you BTW for the compliment.
The Armenian Genocide issue - and specifically (slick) deniers of such - is something I am quite familiar with. I find it very telling that Coolcat is trying to peg us as all the same person. His paranoia reminds me of…oh I don’t know…many Turks I’ve come across – what can I say? I have never posted here as anyone else - though my first 2 posts on this subject I made prior to establishing a login and they are in archive 9? now - as far as I know. Coolcat utterly refuses to understand or acknowledge the legitimacy of my/our objections - be this due to ignorance or willful malevolence I know not. However he clearly is unable to accept that there is a severe problem with what he proposes and he is also clearly unwilling to make even the most mediocre attempt at educating himself regarding this issue. That’s fine – for someone who is uninvolved – but for someone who takes such an active roll in this subject I would expect a greater understanding. Who is this guy anyway? I fail to understand the hierarchy of contributors and who has what (differentiated) powers if any.
I am truly new to this place. It seems to have much potential but (obvious) pitfalls as well. And I came across this subject by accident. Wikipedia had popped up when I searched on another subject. I recalled that someone I had come across in a chat forum months ago had mentioned that the Armenian Genocide was being (more or less) debated on here but I had really thought nothing of it (as this type of thing occurs all over the internet in various - mainly less then apealing) - forms. I’m glad I finally checked it out though – hopefully a real tragedy can be avoided and this can be set right.
One thing as well I think I should add regarding my position - and as Coolcat seems to think - one sided biases. Several years ago I once had a very well (on the internet) known (Armenian Genocide) denier/general Turk Apologist (named Nick) characterize my views on the Armenian Genocide as bordering on blashphemous (as he saw it - looking at my stated views as if from the Armenian perspective) - additionally I have in the past been viciously attacked by (rabid) Armenians for being pro-Turk (much having to do with my stated admiration of Ataturk - but for other reasons [regarding expressions of sympathy/admiration for the Turks] as well) - so don't anyone think that I am on any particualr "side" here - I think the truth of this matter speaks well enough in and of itself. That being said I challenge anyone to prove in any way how what occured to the Armenians during this period can be construed in any manner other then being considered (absolutely) as being a genocide... -- THOTH 20:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 22:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat - I have been to Turkey 3 times - two for several weeks/month stay and have traveled thorughout the country. I know Turks well and have Turkish friends. My views are likely not typical. However - I must insist that your approach and your position is mistaken. There were massacre and relocation. There are far to many eywitness testimonies - even from allies to Turkey (and Torque response is anti-Turk/Muslim bias - which is silly and a typical tactic - use everything - no matter how divorced from reality). These eyewitnesses recount the systemic and widespread massacre and killing of innocents (and we can also see the results). Relocation was convoys of people who were given no food - to suposedly travel for days and weeks - to some place in the desert (concentration camps and such) where there was no provision but to provide a place for them to die. The only ones who survived this were ones who escaped the relocation convoys and made it on their own. Additionally a great many people were murdered in their homes and villages. The counterclaims of civil war are exaggerated. While there was from specific and limited fighting it was not widespread and in no instance were even these lightly armed convoys disrupted or people rescued. And so on and so forth. Additionally the testimony of the 1919 military tribunals must be accepted as factual. The standards used by these courts became the evidenturary model for Nurenmburg trials (very strict). The Young Turk party had a clear plan to send out murderers and others to take all valuables from the Armenians and to eliminate them. There is a history to this (and reasons for this) that must be examined. There are many side issues and such of interest - but the fundemental truths concerning what occured must be accuratly presented. There are not two "sides" to the truth - though there may be two or more perspectives concerning certain events and why certain things may have occured. The variously stated Turkish assertions have degrees of truth - from totally untruthful and made up to presenting valid perpective. But even the latter does not obviate the truth of genocide against Armenians. And these issues are not what should be centrally presented in a discussion of the Genocide (as they have no place in the Holocaust or Nanking Massacre sections - and I have just reviewed these sections and find the discussions on revisionism and denial interesting and relevant to the discussion here). The Armenian Genocide must be clearly presented for what it was - with surounding issues presented and discused as determined to be relevant. Unfourtunatly - your approach gives equal weight (50-50 you say) to arguments which are untrue, exaggerated, hateful and rascist and so on and so forth. This cannot be a forum to make such things official. In some ways it already has become a sounding board for such views and this is unfortnate. There is a right way and a (many) wrong way(s) to proceed. Your proposed approach will not lead to truth and is inherently flawed. You must understand this. I will likely be unavailable for several days to respond or add further - but I hope that you might use the time to reflect on this. If you wish I may try to suggest an approach and possibly outline how I would present this issue (most important items to focus upon) - but it will not occur before next week. In the meantime give Fadix a chance. He really does have a very good grasp of most of the relevant issues. Take care and please consider my words. -- THOTH 23:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat My Talk 23:40, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
After reviewing the two pages, I'm going to have to side with the current version. I find that what Fadix labels "vandalism" is far from it and there is a tendancy by Fadix to remove anything which has a negative impact on the Armenian side of the discussion (The removal of references to ANSLA, official Turkish websites etc.).
I should state that I have not read the full discussion (I don't think anyone has time for that), I have simply compared the two versions of the pages as presented with the twoversions tag. Oberiko 08:25, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My conclusions are the following. I believe they will be reviewed objectively and with Coolcat's constructive and responsible efforts, the article will be put in a more neutral shape. I would like to mention the general conclusions I draw from the discussion below. Extensive support for these conclusions can be found in the discussion below. I will also note what I believe needs to be done specifically for each item. I will try to be objective. (As I don't know the gender of anybody, I will use they even while mentioning one person)
You are not the only desicion making body in this article. Your attitude of ignoring the opposition and scaring them away is HIGHLY discouraged.
Last word: I have heard the imprisonement of pro-Armenian intellectuals story from several Armenian sources. There is no agreement on the length of sentence, it ranges from 5 to 20 years. These are very easy and dirty propaganda to hide Turkey's recent friendly approach on the issue. They don't help for a solution, but I suspect the Armenian propagandists care about a solution. -- Cezveci My Talk 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, so after 90 years things have loosened up a little. Find me an example from 10 years ago if you are so proud of the opennes in Turkey. And how about the ones who to this day get into trouble for talking about the genocide - including that group of Turkish teachers last year... you obviously are following the issue, why do you leave these things out? "Caught" indeed. -- RaffiKojian 03:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We are not discussing youir views or my views in Turkish internall affairs regarding the Freedom of Speech, I do not believe Turkey has an opressive policy. I havent seen an evidence of it unless people start talking about how horible Turkey is and why they should seperate from the country. Even countries like the US do not quite allow this, esspecialy not after the Patriot Act. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) It is sensable to ask for you to stop discussing how well or how horrible free speech is promoted, but instead what the article in question. This is a discussion on History NOT politcs.
My recent contributions were deleted by Fadix with accusation of vandalism. Here are my defense of my contribution. I request that the page be reverted to my final version with minor modifications to trim my possibly POV language.
-- Cezveci My Talk 05:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Tony Sidaway's protecting of this article. I don't know whether it's protected on the "correct" version and it doesn't really matter. The disagreements need to be resolved here on this talk page. What's not helpful are personal attack on this page and in edit summaries. I'd like to see the editors of this article list the points they believe are false or POV. Once the points of contention are identified, we can start moving towards consensus. Carbonite | Talk 00:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tony uses of the article to be locked is not what was asked to be peer reviewed, neither what was asked to be mediated, it was all the edits Coolcat was asking for. Let post you the changes and show you how Tony has abused his powers.
“There is an agreement about the occurence of the tragedy. However, there is ongoing debate on two issues, "whether it was a state-sponsored extermination plan, hence genocide" and "whether the tragedy was one sided or the Turks were also massacred by Russian-supported Armenian militia". While Turkey officially denies the occurence of a "genocide", the Armenian theses consistently reject acknowledging the causalities on the Turkish side."
This is not what the debate is about. This was Coolcat claim, it is POV, and is innacurate in what regards the debate.
“Most Armenian, many Western and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and many Western scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two sides, along with famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. Death toll claims range from 200,000 to 1.8 million, and while there is no official international consensus regarding exactly how many Armenians died, most Western sources maintain that at least one million deaths took place. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied case of what is called genocide and often draws comparison with the Holocaust.”
This was what Coolcat wanted the changes to be made, and I have proposed him by presenting a link to an on line library. It is not a “many” Western vs “many” Western. This is just innacurate, most Western academia, against some Western Academia, I have told Coolcat to verify that on the list of an on line library, and have offered even more supports. He then claimed that it is not because from one side there are more works published that it means it is more supported. And anyone in scientific fields know that something should actually be published and be peer reviewed to BE considered.
The Armenian genocide has been changed for “Relocation of Armenians.” I guess for you Tony, this is more neutral right?
Or another change.
“Following Ottoman Empire's entry in WWI, the Imperial Russia has invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and muslim communities were interleaved. Taking advantage of common religion and recent discomfort of the Armenian community in Ottoman Empire, Russia was promoting Armenian nationalism and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. Late in 1914, Russian supported and tranied Armenian militia started treachery and attacking on muslim villages.”
Or what about this change, is that neutral as well?
“There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including Taner Akçam and Halil Berktay. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists, these scholars freely express and publish their opinions in Turkey. However, the Armenian propagandists falsely claim that confirming the so-called genocide is a crime subject to imprisonment in Turkey. Orhan Pamuk, a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the press that he believes that a million Armenians were killed in Turkey.”
And last, not the least, Torque website has been added back, when I have demonstrated that the site contain non existing quotes that were fabricated, as well as a Turkish government website, with documents that are already present in the other websites. Fadix 00:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tony, some things are about opposing views, and some are not. Wikipedia neutral point of view requires some important things which Coolcat refuse to accept. As much space should be left as the ratio in the Academic world between those supporting one theses, and the other.
The entry is called Armenian genocide, and the name in the article has been reverted to “Armenian relocation” are you really expecting us to discuss about that? It is called the Armenian genocide, and the absurdity of the other sides position, is that even if we take the other sides theses, it still qualify as genocide under the UN convention.
Point 2, is what the other side claim, it isn't only POV, but it is the Turkish government POV, while it is mixed with the bunch, without indicating who believes what... something Coolcat was against with from the beginning. I will object on that, and i do believe that it is against NPOV, to mix everything as equal, without indicating who believes what. I have included a “Turkish government” section, but Coolcat deleted it, in fact, Coolcat even deleted the fact that in April 24, Armenian intellectuals were jailed and killed, something that even the other side recognize. Do you really think in those circumstances that it is possible to discuss with someone, that does not only want POV to be introduced, but his OWN POV?
Point 3, The Turkish human right organization report abuses each months, another Turkish human right organization “Info-Turk” even publish each months, and its articles can be accessed on line. The “Armenian claims” and the claim of freedom is simply untrue, when considering the countless numbers of people having been jailed.
Point 4, two websites added, one of those relevant articles are contained in another website already included, the other site, which is claimed to be by Turkish and Western scholars is Torques website, and I have shown clearly fabrications, quotes supposedly coming from works, when the quotes were not in the pages and the works mentioned, other times, a work that do not exist, a fabricated quote etc... copypasted from the newsgroups, and when the originator was a legendary spammer of the 90s. Fadix 01:52, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat, without attacking Fadix, what's your response to this? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I did not object the "intellectuals were jailed and killed" material, I commented out for review, instead of rewriting you reverted it. That was a mistake. I commented out lots of sections that was worded improperly. You dont say "Armenians were murdered" you say "Armenians are killed" this is how we say things on wikipedia. You cannot declare anything that suggests Armenian genocide as "propoganda". It must have a basis. It would not be right for either party of the story, PRO-ANTI genocide, to assume pure innocence, however neither nation should be insulted. An example: "Tratious Armenians" is definately unacceptable. Instead you can say "Armenian Rebelion" or something even more neutral.
Turkish Human Rights Organisation is not an institiution that in anyway is related to the "Armeinan Genocide". Turkey has their own internal problems and this article is not related to turkeys internal problems today. You cannot and should not try to create an aurora of "Evil Turks". Same could be said for the United States, if I recall the a "Black" been beaten to death by "White" cops. This does not mean the goverment supports the incident. As far as I know such "Abuses" is declared illegal in Turkey. Lots of people get jailed in every country, your point? I do not care what "organisation A" claims, I care about what their claims are based on, which evidence?
-- Cool Cat My Talk 04:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I expected you to answer my above answer, but you had nothing to say, but I expected that.
"But let us not forget that he also took in among other creatures, Hyenas, snakes, leeches and scorpions too. I got a hunch that he was not very happy that he had given the Armenians a ride. He is heard afterwards saying the following: "What a mistake have I committed? What a wonderful place this GOD's earth could have been If I had not taken them in with us to be transported to dry lands."
"Those are pretty sad words, Mr. Gasparian, but not mine. Mine would be: "Let even the Armenians live among us. There is still hope that they may be transformed eventually into some acceptable creatures. There is still hope for them even, because look at history! It is replete with primitive mortals who were the most uncivilized, the most cruel, the most boodthirsty people of their times: the "Vikings." Since we can count all Scandinavians, the descendents of the Vikings nowadays amongst the most civilized, most humane, most peaceful members of wordly society of human beings, who knows, Mr. Gasparian, your kind also, one day, will see the light and emulate the Vikings. At least that is my fervent wish for you and for your people."" But you know what? I think I'll leave it to that, unless you want me to post the juicy comments in the site regarding the Armenians? Or the examples of non-existing works and character assassinations against academics? The site is on the limit of legality, if any of those slandered on Torques site were to know his name, Torque would find himself with serious lawsuits.
I am a newbie so please go easy if I make any mistakes. I just want to say I disagree with CoolCats point two. In reference to wording with killing or murdered. The words kill or murder do not have the same meaning. Killin someone does not suggest intent (while it might be there). For example "John killed Tim in a car accident". Murder suggest by definition intent to kill. So murder does not happen by accident. This is why it is a harsher word. Not neccessarily because of the words connoctations but rather because it has a different meaning. It is saying something different. I believe if in fact the usage of murder is factual it should be used as it is a a more descriptive word. It is more desriptive, in the same way as rape is more descriptive than sex. It is basically telling the reader more, the simple act of using the word in a factual situation is not a POV. Also a thing to note is that other articles indeed do use the word murder. Perhaps you should either point out their mistakes or accept the usage of the word murder is ok. Meok 06:26, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes. But the nature of this article requires "politicaly correct terms". It is best to write contraversial articles this way. There is a wing disputing it and there is a wing that want the world to accept it. Kill works for both groups as you can kill by intending it, while it can also be accidental. -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I disagree so do many other articles. To demonstrate that here is a link that shows all the pages that link to the murder article. This shows it is acceptable for use. It shows that it is "politically correct". And as long as it is correct (factually) it should be used. I assume that if you maintain the postion that murder is not "politically correct" you will complain about its use in other articles which also use the term. Meok 10:45, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can we all agree on these facts?
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can we all agree on THESE facts?
-- RaffiKojian 03:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the denial of Holocaust by nationalists is nothing new under the sun. The Germans did it before 1945 and neo-nazi's still do it. The Japanese deny they the fact that they put my grandfather in a concentration camp in Birma, the Turkish government jails writers who describe the Armenian holocaust. In my view, "historical revisionism" is incompatible with the philosophy of Wikipedia!
At the suggestion of another administrator, I have switched the protection template to "twoversions", which includes links to the other version and also the difference between the two. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:58, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a picture for the right version:
Ok, lets take this slow. You are welcome to use my color scheme, if you do so will I.
-- Cool Cat My Talk 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cool Cat, please drop the color scheme - clearly nobody is interested despite your having brought it up numerous times. I suggest that if you are so keen on "discovering" the facts, which are already well known, you do some serious reading. But short of that (which you do not appear terribly interested in - rather you want to make sure this is not clearly described as a genocide), let us go ahead, and hash out the facts for the gazillionth time, because lord knows, every time someone new hears that there was a genocide and isn't sure whether to believe it, we should all drop everything we are doing and defend the facts from scratch. Sorry about the sarcasm, but this has got to be at least the 20th time I am doing this online. That is why I created the website - so you can go and read materials online, judging the sources yourself, and come to you conclusion. Oh well, I guess that was a waste as well... so back to the basics.
As I asked above, can you agree to THESE facts?
If not, please answer very convincingly why you could still have major doubts about any of these. In fact, if you disagree, then please provide some evidence that they are not true. -- RaffiKojian 03:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ottoman_Armenian_Population More would be added in it, after I complete the entry regarding the Armenian losses. As one can see, every points are supported by footnotes and references, and even Turkish ones. -Unsigned, likely fadix
Who beside the Turks call the genocide theses as "Armenian propaganda." Don't escape it, answer me please. Fadix 23:52, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unless it is one's intention to promote advocacy of largely unsupported revisionism and muddy the truth. Frankly I don't much like either article. I have not much hope at all that there will ever be anything decent here as we can see from the charges and countercharges - there is really no "middle ground" on most of this and any "middle ground" is likely not the truth besides.
Obviously if we are stuck on use of the term "Genocide" - questioning if it is historically accurate/inaccurate - then yes - we have problems. It is only politically controversial - it is otherwise completely accepted. Why is the Armenian Genocide given recognition for/as such at Genocide conferences and when (cross disciplinary) Genocide scholars discuss genocide denial if it is not considered as genocide? And for Coolcat to state "why should we care what scholars think - because they are biased" etc - well - I thought it was Turkey's position to leave the issue to the historians. Well I think the historians have spoken. If we are to take a political position as equivalent to the historical position - well it makes me wonder how other articles in Wikipedia might look with this approach.
And again - what Coolcat is advocating is essentially to let the Holocaust denier have an equal voice to that of legitimate scholars, historians and in the face of accepted truth. I have scanned (read in its entirely actually) the talk pages since I last posted - and what I see is clear advocacy. Coolcat is not objective and this "approach" is a ruse. For one - to refuse to use the term "murder" when this is clearly what has occurred. Again - I find Coolcat's statement - repeated several times –
highly offensive. To suggest that the hundreds of thousands - and yes perhaps/likely million plus innocent human beings - who were brutally
that somehow they were not innocent - that they deserved it....and to accuse one of fanaticism for believing that these innocents were such - well I am offended (he clearly either is completely ignorant or is just hateful, callous and mean) - and I think Armenians are deserving of an apology. If I were to go over to the Holocaust page now - and state that anyone who believes that the Jews were innocent (with the implication that they were deserving of their slaughter) and I think I might do this - and put a link to this discussion page - just what do you think the reaction might be?
Fadix has issued a challenge to all who advocate that Armenians were somehow equal perpetrators against innocent Turks - to prove such - to prove massacres of Turks in 1914 or 1915 on any kind of scale. I even believe that there were isolated instances of such - as there have been sporadic massacres of Armenians by Turks and particularly Kurds, Circassians (Cherkes) and others over the proceeding 50-100 years - and clearly quite disproportionately so. So some misguided Armenian “gangs” did taken retribution upon innocent Turkish citizens – yes – it is clear that this did happen in some places – and my heart grieves for those whose families suffered this senseless violence – but likewise Armenians have regularly been slaughtered by Kurdish bandit chiefs and such - even so - does this justify the terrible crimes that were committed against the Armenian population – such to wipe it out completely? Why were no such steps taken to curb the Kurdish violence against the Armenians if the Ottomans had such a sense of peace and justice?
No – this was different. The Armenians were deliberately killed – and for a number of reasons (and we should examine the wartime conditions and the swing of revolutionary zeal and societal stress – these are all factors certainly to what occurred) – but do not deny what did happen! The article must focus on the plight of the Armenians who were slaughtered if the relevancy of such events is to be portrayed in its rightful truthful manner. This is the overwhelming truth – the reason for this issue – the why we care – and it is as factual and true – unfortunately so – as any known historical event that has occurred on the planet – so we must deal with this – and not hide our heads in the sand and cry that such a thing never occurred. First and foremost this must be acknowledged!
I am not opposed at all for discussing the circumstances and the whys and such – and in fact I have developed a rather comprehensive outline if the approach we finally settle on is one of a complete presentation in all contexts (but I warn this may need to go far beyond just some encyclopedia article to do it justice). However I must emphasize that it is entirely clear that no real body of evidence supports the jist of official Turkish Thesis (and much of what is offered was poor untrue and massively exaggerated propaganda from the time designed to incite violence against Armenians)– and we cannot give credence to unsupported claims that Armenians of this period did such violence against Turks on any truly noticeable or widespread scale (an argument might be able to be made that the Young Turks – knowing how easily they got into power and also seeing the success the other minorities had at breaking away – overreacted – pure and simple…still what was done was done…) – However it is clear that the Ottoman Turks – led by the (by then) xenophobic Young Turk party – planned and committed a deliberate policy of a state slaughter of one of its minority peoples (and actually more then one – as Assyrians and Greeks were killed too) – they employed the state apparatus for massive repression and brutality and they carried it out to its most inhumane and terrible ends.
There can be no rational claim that in any way were Armenians responsible for the kind of mass crimes against humanity as what the Ottoman Armenians experienced at the hand of the Turks – you have no case to present such – it is entirely untrue and it is a travesty of justice blame the victims and to suggest such and it is an affront to all of the innocent victims who were slaughtered and brutalized – lives forever ended – forever altered – survive or persih. To suggest such and then to claim to be an impartial moderator is just an out an out travesty and you sir have really gone too far here! -- THOTH 20:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You should be the one to apologise for the level of insults fadix. Seems like it is necesary for you to destroys peoples credibilty by making them revisionsist/Turkish/whatever. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) Historians apperantly widely accept whatever fadix says. I dont want your analysis, I want the documents' archive numbers in question. Majority doesnt make right. A disputed aricle cannot be truley neutral if it starts neutral. Just because you think something isnt NPOV doesnt make it not NPOV. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) You are taling about things you are claiming things you are not iclined to provide the documents. Is that it? I want to know which selection is from wich archive material. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please avoid personal attacks. I suggest it would be more helpful to discuss the article than to discuss the motives of other editors. Jonathunder 23:02, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)
It's very hard in this format of conversation to find an appropriate place to insert my reply. This reply is to Cool Cat's original post under "Response". -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cool Cat - again you are repeating the same fallacy. Because Neo-Nazis deny the jewish holocaust, does not mean the article should present their side as equal. Also regardless of any "deliberately kill" order, there was a genocide. You apparently have not read Survivors - since you didn't reply affirmatively above. In towns across Anatolia the same things happened. Able men were taken away and largely murdered. Women, children and elderly were told they were being moved, and were walked to the desert being pillaged and murdered and kidnapped and raped along the way. NO PROVISIONS were ever recorded for any of them to eat, be sheltered, or housed at any destination. They were by and large marched towards Der El Zor desert. They were escorted by soldiers who participated in their demise - and often prevented them even from taking care of themselves along the way. These are the simple facts. There IS no dispute that all the Armenians were moved, right? None? On any side? Now then - there is not a single document showing that these violations of the Armenians, by the Turkish soldiers and under their watch were punished. There is no record of any food or shelter actually being provided. No "destination" with any tents or shelters or anything. Not only this - the Armenians weren't even allowed to provide these things for themselves, which many could afford to. This is a death sentence. Since all agree that the Armenians were forcibly removed by the Ottoman government, and unless you can show any evidence that any assistance or protection was provided, and all eyewitness accounts confirm that these people were treated across the Empire in a way which could only be expected to lead to deeath, then it was clearly, undeniably a genocide. Very simple really. The ICTJ study confirms it and so do all the scholars who have not directly recieved financial assistance from the Turkish Govt. -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Are you genuinely interested in the truth? Are you ever going to answer these particular points? Can you show anything detailing any food or shelter ever provided to these hundreds of thousands of people being relocated? These are critical points and they show up in my edit of the genocide article. -- RaffiKojian 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope the disputants can stop the bickering and personal insults for a bit. It's sad that these insults are being reproduced faster than I can remove them.
It seems to me that we've got the basics of general agreement on the facts. The Armenians were removed from their homes by force and transported in circumstances that predictably resulted in many deaths, perhaps a million or so. There is no question of this. I am minded to let disputants produce their final words--and don't waste time responding to personal attacks, stick to the subject. When that has been done I will unprotect the page. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 10:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I cannot at all agree that we are anywere close to agreement. This Coolcat character has hijaked this issue and has insured that it will go around and around for ever with no resolution. He disputes the view of historians and genocide scholars and claims that we must include denialist views. This is clearly unacceptable. Could you imagine such being presented on the Holocaust page? This meets every criteria of genocide. This is accepted fact. And there was no Armenian revolt in any sense that Coolcat claims - the evidence supports the opposite - overwhelmingly - that these were innocent populations/people who were killed. To attempt to make this case and insist that unsupported denilaist propoganda claims be given equal weight to commonly accepted acholarship and overwhelming evidence on this matter is clearly unacceptabel - in fact it is an outrage. Until we can get beyond this there is no possibility of resolution here - and this seemingly is what he wants. Fadix has presented more factual and supported information on this matter then I have seen in other genocide and related articles - yet his presentation is essentially shuffled to the side and very ugly racist attacks have been allowed against him and against Armenians. For presentations affirming Genocide Coolcat insists on levels of doscumentation/citation/verification that are in some cases very difficult to get - yet these points are widely known and accepted as the truth. Meanwhile he entertains any counter argument no matter how flimsy and disproven and calls for giving equal time. Again - it is the same as giving Holocaust deniers equal time. I for one will not participate in such an exercise but will continue my valid protests until some sanity can prevail here. I think that Coolcat has already clearly been exposed as biased on this issue. He cannot be allowed to determine the content of this article. And Fadix has provided more then enough effort and evidence to be allowed a free hand to make a proper presentation. -- THOTH 14:48, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Raffi - my changes would be substansial. I'm not certain I would want to introduce such in their entirety without some basic agreements regarding what I might include and the approach I might take. I think it is important that we clearly establish some undisputed facts - such as the use of the term genocide and what we are primarily talking about - the actions taken by the Young Turk controlled government aparatus - against the Armenian population - before preceeding. But yes - I would love to take a cut at this. In fact I have an outline for such - in a sense - however it is 2 pages handwritten! yeah I know...but its intention is for a documentary film I am proposing to produce...(so I may not want to share it all...) -- THOTH 17:27, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK - but have patience. I'm approaching the deadline for tax filing and have some other obligations. My outline is not necessarily 100% appropriate for this presentation - as it is much concerned with the (prior) history - still I'll look it over and see if I can mod it and think what might be appropriate. -- THOTH 13:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(note - I just posted this and it was seemingly deleted in its entirety. if someone is playing games here I suggest that they stop!)
Before it is possible to proceed further to develop this article (that I think basically needs to be redone from scratch) it is clear that certain issues must be resolved and certain facts and definitions agreed upon. First and foremost - of course – we must establish the legitimacy of use of the term "genocide" to describe the primary events we are discussing in the article. (I think Fadix has already more then adequately done so – but as this is – in a sense – a restart – and considering the controversy – I think we need to take this step by step and establish a baseline to provide an agreed upon foundation for the article. So is use of the term “genocide” legitimate. Wikipedia itself has an entry concerning genocide that should be referenced (and in it there are links to source material for such a definition) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
I believe the evidence entirely and most clearly supports the contention that the Armenian people of Anatolia/the Ottoman Empire were subjected to a campaign of genocide and that what resulted from such was in fact genocide. For instance in 1985 the United Nations Economic and Social Council Commission on Human Rights Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities released this following findings: (this is an excerpt with my highlights)
“…the distinguishing characteristics of the twentieth century in evolving the development of genocide "are that it is committed in cold blood by the deliberate fiat of holders of despotic political power, and that the perpetrators of genocide employ all the resources of present-day technology and organization to make their planned massacres systematic and complete". The Nazi aberration has unfortunately not been the only case of genocide in the twentieth century. Among other examples which can be cited as qualifying are the German massacre of Hereros in 1904, the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915-1916, the Ukrainian pogrom of Jews in 1919, the Tutsi massacre of Hutu in Burundi in 1965 and 1972, the Paraguayan massacre of Ache Indians prior to 1974,16 the Khmer Rouge massacre in Kampuchea between 1975 and 1978, and the contemporary Iranian killings of Baha'is.
Additionally (the footnote):
At least 1 million, and possibly well over half of the Armenian population, are reliably estimated to have been killed or death marched by independent authorities and eye-witnesses. This is corroborated by reports in United States, German and British archives and of contemporary diplomats in the Ottoman Empire, including those of its ally Germany. The German Ambassador, Wangenheim, for example, on 7 July 1915 wrote "the government is indeed pursuing its goal of exterminating the Armenian race in the Ottoman Empire" (Wilhelmstrasse archives).”
And:
“The Turks also in 1919-20 held trials: not of ‘war criminals’ but of some of the Ottomans guilty of the Armenian genocide”.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.169/current_category.6/affirmation_detail.html
Based on this statement alone I believe we can justifiably use the term “genocide” to apply to the Armenian case. But of course there are reams of other affirmations of use of this term to apply to this case. One other statement I want to add to illustrate the proper use of the term is the 1995 Resolution by the State Duma of Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation:
Based on irrefutable historic facts which attest to the extermination of Armenians on the territory of Western Armenia from 1915 to 1922 and, in accordance with the following Conventions adopted by the United Nations:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, December 9, 1948;
Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, November 26, 1968;
Aspiring to restore the humanitarian traditions of the Russian State and,
Emphasizing that through the initiative of Russia, the Great European Powers already in 1915 characterized the actions of the Turkish Empire against the Armenian people as a "Crime Against Humanity" and,
Noting that the physical extermination of the fraternal Armenian people in its historic homeland aimed at destroying Russia;
The State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation:
Condemns the perpetrators of the extermination of Armenians from 1915 to 1922;
Expresses its deep sympathy to the Armenian people and recognizes April 24 as a day of remembrance for the victims of the Genocide. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.151/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html
I invite others to comment and to provide other links if it is thought necessary. I think we should come to agreement on use of this term and move on. Once we move beyond this point I think we should perhaps examine and agree upon a basic chronology of the Genocide and then discuss the issue of pre-meditation (proof for such) and perhaps motivation/justification/intent and then we should arrive at an agreement and develop a presentation illustrating the mechanics of how the Genocide was carried out (deportations [including by who/what means – with examples etc] and perhaps introduce the subject of the concentration camps and what they were etc, discuss instances of mass killings [again by who – role of Kurds and such should also be discussed] and methods of killings etc) . We should conclude with the results of the Genocide – depopulation Armenians from Anatolia and discuss numbers of total (and perhaps place specific) deaths. This I propose is the outline of a very basic presentation that I think we can establish as fact. Beyond this there are numerous other issues and events that could and do warrant further in-depth discussion. But I propose that we proceed with the basics - as just outlined – in a step-by-step fashion. Then at some point I think we need to address this whole issue of Turkish counter-charges (legitimate or not) and the issue and history of genocide denial.-- THOTH 17:33, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Again - concerning use of the term "genocide" and why I think the entire article - and specifically the introductory paragraph needs to be completely re-written (there are word, sentence and paragraph structure issues as well). First – Tony Sidaway has presented an argument that he claims everyone agrees on – and I think I can agree that it is agreed to and well proven – that (at a very minimum) the Government of Turkey ordered the “deportation” of Armenians from their homes without any provision to ensure that they were cared for – ie – that the intention (or at least the clear understanding) was that these people were going to die – and for the most part they did – through the rigors of forced march without food or water or from deliberate murder en route. It is also clear that the Turkish authorities emptied all cities, towns, villages and the countryside of Eastern Anatolia – the traditional and acknowledged home of the Armenian people – leaving (resulting in) very few Armenians living/left in these areas. Additionally, with only a few exceptions, the Young Turk controlled Ottoman government “deported” significant portions of Armenians from all other inhabited areas of Anatolia leaving these areas likewise empty of Armenians. Thus – as the accepted definition of genocide clearly includes this concept of removing people from their homes and destroying them as a group – which is what was done. (and what occurred meets the mental element as well as at least 4 of the 5 physical elements – not sure about preventing births)…I think its clear that we can easily call this genocide without (serious) objection) – (here is the excerpt BTW):
The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide: 1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and 2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide." "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:
Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.
Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.
Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.
Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.
--
THOTH 15:49, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What do folks think of the Armenian Genocide - Working Version? -- RaffiKojian 17:35, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't like it on a number of levels. I don't like the way it begins - talking about issues being disputed. (this discussion should be later). A clear presentation of what was done - by whom - affecting who and the aftermath need to be presented. I think more contextual information needs to be listed as well. I also think we need to seperate the actual event(s) with the other controversy surounding (Turkish denial and attempts to get recognition, commemeration etc). In general I find the overall approach and content to be disatisfying. (not that it is all bad - but this is my gut reaction). -- THOTH 17:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well well - a nice diatribe - but that is about all you are aparently good for. Tony Sidaway - a Wikipedia moderator/administrator of some sort has stated that Coolcat would likely not be contributing much to this article as his views are in the minority and are unsubstantiated. I suspect that your position - particularly if it is as aparently misinformed and in line with Turkish denilist propoganda as it seems will fall into a similar category. However I would like to extend the invitation for you to contribute - factually, with support and where appropriate where you deem it necessary to present additional information. Still I would warn you to not attempt to brand me racist or a fanatic - as I am neither - but yes - in fact - I do believe that there is a substansial difference between the truth of this matter and what commonly passes for the official Turkish perspective - which is essentially denial of the truth. I do think that both the common Armenian viewpoints and that of most Turks are missing key aspects of the truth as seen from the other side - however it is likewise clear to me that the common Armenian perspective has much more in common with that of serious scholars on this issue and that this version is far closer to the truth - or at least the most relevant facts that that which is commonly espoused form the Turkish side. And yes - the article - as it currently stands is far too compromised with wishy washy language. What occured should be made clear. The fact of genocide should be clear - the program for carrying such out and the methods - all extensively witnessed and documented - should be accuratly presented. I have yet to see any real (supportable) dispute to the basic contentions of genocide and of the Ottoman campaign of deportation (to death) and massacre as accepted by historians and by observers from the time. I do not dispute that there might be ancillary events that should be presented in a comprehensive manner taking into account the Turkish perspective - however I have yet to see anything that truly disputes the fundemental accepted assertions of genocide and the basic chronology of events and results. Issues of Turks attacked by Armenians and such - while they did occur and were an unfotunate sign of violence of the times - are neither in the same category of crimes (just based on numbers and for other reasons as well) and are not any type of viable justification or counterweight to the fact that over 1 million Armenians were mercilessly slaughtered by the Ottoman Turk state aparatus. I suggest that you attempt to educate yourself just a bit on this issue and not just accept what your government has been preaching to you. I know that it is difficult as you have been taught that a Turk can do no wrong and that everything done was justified or happend to Turks and not by Turks - but just calling us racsist because we are attempting to present the truth is not going to cut it. --
THOTH 20:30, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fadix - I admit that i am still developing an understanding and appreciation of how Wikipedia approaches issues - but I have been reviewing many differnt and diverse entries and their associated talk pages - so I am catching on (and am not entirely ignorant). I have yet to edit any page - only comment here. I am reluctant to edit the current article both nbecause of allthe ongoing and past baggage associated with it and because it is reallylacking in a very many areas (not the only Wikipedia presentation to suffer from this and other shortfalls however). I am adamant about presenting the truth however and I will never be satisfied if this event is whitewashed such as many official genocide (not called such) resolutions often are. ANd you know me from our interaction on other sites in the past - I am one of the more accepting of aspects of the Turkish perspective. I am a known and admitted admirer of Ataturk and a lover of Turks! I have been to Turkey and enjoy its culture and people. I have (several) very good Turkish friends here in the states. I hold no animosity towards Turks whatsoever and I am fair and balanced in my beliefs and approach. Still - I will not ever accept a whitewashing of the truth. -- THOTH 20:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to second Fadix's excellent response to this contention that such an absurd "disclosure" and the suggestion that mention of ASALA has any place in the core of a discussion concerning the Armenian Genocide. It is the fact of the Genocide itself as known and accepted by scholars and international bodies that must be presented not unproven and highly suspect contentions that only support one POV – that of the government of Turkey and certain of its citizens and supporters who have clear agenda/bias and misunderstanding of the truth.
This issue of "disclosure" is patently absurd. Again - if such were considered acceptable as a lead in to the discussion of the Holocaust on Wikipedia then perhaps it might be considered acceptable here - but that of course would be an admission that anyone might dispute known facts and history from whatever questionable and unproven basis - because that is exactly what you propose and its "not worth the ink it is written on".
I think ASALA perhaps merits its own entry or discussion in a section that deals with genocide denial and its response. But ASALA was a group and a phenomenon that existed independently, was not supported by the vast numbers of Armenians nor any other Armenian organizations and it has no direct relevance on the Genocide that was committed in and around 1915 - unless, in fact you acknowledge that the Genocide is perhaps ongoing as continued Turkish denial of such is perpetuation. Even then ASALA needs to be presented in proper context not POV which is what you propose.
As for why Turks killed Armenians that can be easily answered - but should be done in the article itself and IMO it cannot be viewed in isolation but is related to the earlier massacres of Armenians by Turks that occurred in the 1890s and in Adana in 1909 and in relation to the overall political and economic environment and the fall/dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. IMO to properly discuss and present this entire matter the rise of (and ascendancy of hyper Turkish nationalists within) the Committee of Union and Progress (Young Turks) needs to be presented (or at least linked to - with proper relation to the Armenians - and it is already there [in the Wikipedia presentation] in part) and a proper understanding of the entire "Armenian Question" in regards to the Ottoman Empire and its downfall (Fall of Empire, failure of government to adapt to the times, including the corruption, violence, lawlessness etc – as well as the history of break-away of other nationalities (and the influx of Muslim refugees), the dire economic and political straights of the nation [including impact of WWI and relations with the European powers] and the [Turkish] revolution against and fall from power/grace of the Sultan...and why the Sultan earlier chose to suppress and massacre Armenians…and how Turkish nationalism became a force to the detriment of other sects/nationalities within the empire) - all of this should be presented (or at least properly linked to). However the core of the presentation should clearly present the Genocide for what it was with the surrounding events and causative issues presented as they warrant. In the mean time I see little value in your contributions amounting to only calling Armenian's hateful fanatics with no proof of such. What we are trying to present is accurate history. I will give you the benefit of the doubt to not call you hateful - but only ignorant and consumed with nationalist fervor. -- THOTH 15:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
User:Fadix/Ottoman_Armenian_Casualties This is the article I am working on, it is at a very early stage of developpement. It will only concentrate on the casulties figures on this article. More info and the footnotes will be added later. Fadix 03:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This period of protection has gone on much longer than I anticipated, and I'm releasing it for edits because I don't think anything more can be achieved by this process. I will only protect again if you all start being naughty and getting into an edit war again, so behave. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:00, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe in rewiewing facts. I do not care what you were told/taught. I am a scientist, my job is to examine the facts. I would have left this article alone LONG ago if I was not insulted on an edit basis. It had been my experience that if people are not willing to discuss the factuality of their "facts", they are not necesarily "facts". Not all mass number of deaths are defined as "Massacre". I never declared the entier artilce as propoganda, I never acused you of things. Some material looks one sided. I challenge their factuality. I challenge the factuality of all material. If you cant prove it I have no reason to believe in it. I do not care what Historians think, I care about why they think what they think based on what. Do you have a problem with that? It is imposible to discuss this as long as you keep insulting me and any party that joins the conversation. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apperantly Fadix, aside from swearing and screaming came up with a brilliant article. User:Fadix/Ottoman Armenian Casualties. Congrats, we can work like that. Book links are great, web links may be more insightfull. ;) -- Cool Cat My Talk 09:05, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Agree good article on numbers by Fadix - as usual. I've always regarding these type of arguments contesting how many were killed to be somewhat strawmen like - as they really have little bearing or relevance (IMO). The fact that under the cover of war the Young Turks undertook (a successful) campaign to rid Anatolia of Armenians (and other Christians...oh and not just for their wealth BTW - but it was certainly a factor...again many parallels t the Holocaust) - and the results of ethnic cleansing/genocide through deportation and massacre of innocent civilian populations is unchanged - regardless of the numbers. It is still a genocide and a terrible crime against humanity and against the Armenians - regardless.
Fadix and I have both sucessfully debunked the McCarthy figures/claims in the past. The extreme "wand waving" done by McCarthy concerning numbers of Armenians within the various Ottoman provinces via the various seriously flawed "census" counts (or to use the Turkish venacular - "so-called" census counts) is testament to his flawed and biased (again "so-called" scholarship). I do find more worthwhile information in "Death and Exile" - but it is clear he is pitching his agenda of complete Turkish apolegetics and is not interested in truth.
Anyway. I have transcribed about 1/3 of my outline as I would like to present it. While I ussually just write rapidly off the top of my head in these talk pages and on forums - for somethign of this magnitude I am deliberate and try to really think things through. Obviously I will miss much regardless - and I am hoping that my proposed outline will be well recieved and become a basis for a serious presentation of the Armenian Genocide. The current article is neither appropiatly encompassing nor does it empahsise all of what I believe are the key events and key points that should be raised. I also find the current article to somewhat lack context - so much so that I think it would be difficult for the casual reader to truly understand what occured (in part better linkages and references will help). I hope to have something to present sometime this week. I believe it will be worth waiting for to at least consider some of my points even if the group may not decide to abandon the current article and proceed on this new path in its entirety. Thanks for the consideration. -- THOTH 23:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not trying to improve my credibility, on wikipedia everyone has equal level of credibility, however on many ocasions my credibility was disputed on this page which is at best unwiki. I want to hear more "Why historians investigating the matter think what they think based on what?", less "Coolcat is bad.", less "Tony sais so", less "Genocide is fact because I said so". -- Cool Cat My Talk 03:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to remind you to be tolerant of others views, even if you disagree with them. You may well regard the other party's views as being on the fringe. This may even be true, but Wikipedia is aiming for a neutral point of view, not to exclude unconventional views. We are not trying to write a "single correct version of the truth."-- Cool Cat My Talk 03:50, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please respect the right of others to hold their views. This does not mean that you have to agree with me, but just agree to disagree. Discuss the facts and how to express them, NOT the attributes of the other party, in this case me. Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is. Negative personal comments and "I'm better than you" attacks, such as "You have no life." are not welcome. -- Cool Cat My Talk 05:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry, I was quoting Wikipedia:No personal Attacks, you are obligated to folow these. There is no excuse for such attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Please be civil. The article is disputed in its current state. We do not do votes on every disputed article. Creationism is there even though majority perhaps agrees its a complete load of crap. Wikipedia requires facts, this is not your research paper, you cannot and shouldnot try to prove the Armenian Genocide here, it is disputed, something you do not acknowlege. Admins do not interfere with articles, any admin will tell you constantly reverting the article is not the right way. I was reminded of this flaw by steriotek, rather harsh I think given he is not any better than I am as reverting goes. -- Cool Cat My Talk 10:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that this article needs to look a whole lot more like this article on the Armenian Genocide which, you'll note, is a fork of an earlier version of this article. — Davenbelle 09:40, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
I visited the discussion page to read some interesting views. All I see are childish comments between a few users more about THEIR credibility than the credibility of the information presented. All you do here is create a garbage of information. I have to lower myself to say this but I think it is the only way it will make sense to you: Get a life.
Each of you present your views and facts and let others make their own judgements. You have to assume that the individuals reading these are interested in the subject and will try to get the best of what they read. - (unsigned) Rotband
...So if you take a step back, try to imagine a genocide victim being subjected to this day after day, year after year, perhaps you'd appreciate better some of the anger and impatience that has been displayed. Again, I tell you GO TO THE LIBRARY - read Survivors, read Hovanissian and Dadrian, I even encourage you to read books like Fiegl's Myth of Terror. After that, you can come back and edit the article like a pro. But before that, you really need to take it a bit easy... --RaffiKojian 03:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Like I said, armenians have their reasons for their beliefs so does the turks. A uniformal truth should satisfy both. -- Cool Cat My Talk 02:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Agree (with Gvorl) - as anyone who truly understands what occured in 1915 - and before and after - in regards to this issue could never (honestly) say the things that Coolcat does. Obvioulsly most Turks and Armenians are not going to agree on the issue at this point in time. They do nto agree out in the real world - how can you expect that they will agree here? Obvioulsy - you will never convince any Armenian (nor any proper knowledgable historian) that there was no Genocide. (and we have proved that there was by a very clear margin - so I can see no real denbate on this issue) - but - I can neither see most Turks (or Coolcat) every admitting to Genocide. So where does this leave us by the seemingly/alleged unbiased Coolcat approach? With no solution - with no Armenian Genocide article - curious isnt't it? -- THOTH 18:09, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with everybody but Cool Cat that Cool Cat has contributed nothing to this article at all. Has not shown any knowledge of the subject. Has inserted opinion which he says he has not formed yet. Has stated he was lying that he has little real knowlege of the subject (without proving any such thing). Twisted my words when I say he should read up on the subject. So all he has done (assuming it is a he - but he prefers to remain completely anonymous) is create a MASSIVE obstacle to progress on the article, waste all of our time, and make a joke of wikipedia. Can we just ignore him? I mean, if someone wants to argue facts here, that is one thing, but this whole "You have to convince me the Turks had a logical, sane reason to wipe out the Armenians or I can't believe it was genocide" at this point in the conversation is so ridiculous, we can't actually be expected to respond. It is almost like someone is playing a joke on us all. So again I ask. Can we just ignore this thing called Cool Cat until he possibly has something meaningful to contribute? --
RaffiKojian 04:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hm - I don't dispute that this "arabia" claim is in error - the exact quotes from the CUP leaders directly mention the Central Asian Turkick lands - even to include the Uigyurs who live in China. However this motivation was only one of many for "removing the Armenian problem" - and hard to prove if the average Turk who participated or took advantage of the slaughter of Armenians was truly motivated by such. As for the Armenian Genocide being an inspiration for Hitler - well there are several sources of his mentioning such as well as a great deal of circumstansial evidence considering the role of his advisor Count Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter - German Vice-Consul at Erzerum (who by the way had this to say about the matter):
"I have conducted a series of conversations with competent and influential Turkish personalities, and these are my impressions: A large segment of the Ittihadist Young Turk party maintains the viewpoint that the Turkish empire should be based only on the principle of Islam and Pan-Turkism. Its non-Muslim and non-Turkish inhabitants should either be forcibly islamized, or otherwise they ought to be DESTROYED. These gentlemen believe that the time is propitious for the realization of this PLAN. The first item on this agenda concerns the LIQUIDATION OF THE ARMENIANS. Ittihad will dangle before the eyes of the allies the specter of an ALLEGED REVOLUTION prepared by the Armenian Dashnak party. Moreover. local incidents of social unrest and acts of Armenian self-defense will deliberately be provoked and inflated and will be used as pretexts to effect the deportations. Once en route however, the convoys will be attacked and EXTERMINATED by brigands, and in part by gendarmes, who will be instigated for that purpose by Ittihad."
curious isn't it - that he was so perceptive - that the CUP had such a plan...and that so much of what the Nazi's attempted some 30 years later bore so much similarilty....-- THOTH 16:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Don't preach to me. I know the history - a good deal better then you I think. I have not written this article. It is much too soft IMO - among other shortfalls. My having many Turkish friends has no bearing on presenting the truth here. You have spent the better part of a paragraph saying nothing and putting words in my mouth. Your depiction of Turkey as the victim is very typical. Funny that it was the Turks who began the aggression. The British would have been most happy - and made many attempts to convince the Turks to not go with the Germans - yes it was the greed of Enver and the others that won out in the end - the idea that the Germans would win and thus The Ottoman Empire could once again be great and vast (but this time Turkish and not multi-cultural). Its only lucky that the Brits and French and even the Russians had their hands full elsewhere and with other things. Its no coincidence theat Lennin was bankrolled by the Germans. And as valiant as the Ottoman armies did fight at times - these were clearly just skirmishes in the grand scheme of things. There was no possibility that the Ottoman Empire would come out of this one much of anything like it came into it (the CUP were stupid fools - and it is they who are to blame for not only the terrible Armenian suffering but the Turkish suffering as well...and you are a [fooled] fool if you believe otherwise) - and Ataturk and the Turks are certainly deserving of much credit for salvaging and leveraging what they got - Anatolia - free of all capitulations....of course without the Armenians - and that was certainly by design (but your nation suffers still - much - from this shortsightedness). So squirm away - you cannot use your critique of a poorly written article to supress the truth. Yeah funny - the Turks being so weak - yet no caravan was ever intercepted - no rescue ever made - some Armenian resistance eh? -- THOTH 07:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Coolcat - I have no concern if you stay - but I am concerned - as I have well expressed and explained - that your approach is not at all condusive to reaching the truth in this case. I agree that the current article is severly lacking and is somewhat unfocused. I wish I had the time to write the whole thing but I really don't - at least not in quick order. I am hopng to have my proposed outline available today or tomorow however. I want to comment though that your characterizing the known historical and (mulitply independently coroborated and objective) eyewitness record as "stories" and "legends" only bespeaks your ignornace (or agenda). Anyway - I can and will very much so - adress this issue of why the Turks/CUP undertook genocide. -- THOTH 16:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)