This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1st Armoured Division (Poland) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I hope that this is the first of many items written about the Polish first armoured as they saw lots of action and were used as special forces in many ways. It would be nice if the truth were at last written about these heroes who, under Maczek. achieved so many heroic victories which were not mentioned. The Canadians and British took a lot of the glory for the actions of this Polish division and they deserve, at long last, for the truth to be told.
Tielt
On my website I have a section on the Sherman Firefly of the 1st Polish Armored Division in Tielt, Belgium. If someone thinks it's worth to add a link on the page, please feel free to use the following link: http://web.mac.com/davedepickere/World_War_II,_analyzed!/Flanders/Paginas/Tielt.html
Patton76 01:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Poles Breda.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 07:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Poles Wilhelmshafen.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 07:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Polish-1st-Armd-Div-Badge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 08:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
With respect, I think it was a bit radical of Robert Warren to have deleted the section on alleged war crimes. Agreed, one American source is not strong enough evidence to support the case that war crimes took place. But there is no harm in us referring to the allegation of the war crime. Firstly, I have to say the timing looks very interesting. The alleged crime took place at the same time as the Warsaw Uprising, where Axis troops massacred about 200,000 Polish civilians and did the most awful things to Poles, like gang raping terminally ill Polish female cancer patients in their hospital beds. In revenge, I wouldn't be surprised if Polish troops in France did execute about 1000 of their German prisoners, nor would I be surprised if Allied High Command turned a blind eye. Secondly, we should be aware that Allied conduct in France is being re-examined right now, e.g. the Allied bombing of French civilians in Caen, and the allegations of rape of French civilians by the U.S. Army, and that black American soldiers tended to be punished for rape but white American soldiers tended not to be. These subjects have been taboo for a long time, and should not be taboo in an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the solution is for us to refer to the crimes as allegations rather than facts. After all, it is verifiable that allegations have been made, it is not so far verifiable whether of not the crimes took place. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
"Over the next couple of days,Waters wrote"the Germans attacked with all the fury they they could bring to bear,fueled by their desperation to escape.""Others were trying to surrender,many of them succesfully.Too many,in fact.Neither the Poles nor the Americans had facilities to deal with them.Waters estabilished a POW pen in Chambois,but it was badly overcrowded.Still,one morning a Polish captain brought in some 200 additional POW,s to turn over to the Americans.
Polish captain:"Here are your prisoners"
Waters:"I donn't want them."
Polish captain:"But i must leave them with you.Those are my orders".
Waters:"I still don't want them.Get them out of here".(Waters orders were to accept them.but he had been told to expect 1500;in fact there were only couple of hundred.)
Polish captain: "But i must still leave them with you."
Warers:"well,you were supposed to have 1500 prisoners.Where are they?"
Polish captain:"They are dead.We shoot them.These are all that are left".
Waters: "Then why don't you shoot these too?" A paus,then Waters corrected himself:"No,you can't do that."
Polish captain:"Oh,yes we can.They shot my countryman.".He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others.Then he said ,"Captain ,we can't shoot them.We are out of ammunition."
I hope it suffices... Mariaflores1955 ( talk) 13:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
We took prisoners. Some of those from the Wehrmacht were of Polish birth. They were asked if they would join us: anyone who accepted was given the rifle and paybook of one of the dead! They were unexpected, precious reinforcements. The S.S. and those whose paybooks showed that they had taken part in the invasion of Poland in ’39 received no mercy!
I am told by my colleagues in Poland, that the Ambrose's claim is well know in Poland and it is confirmed by vets of the 1st Armoured Division. In addition the Polish War crimes at Falaise were also mentioned in John Colby’s book "War from the Ground Up"... Mariaflores1955 ( talk) 13:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Well Said. Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 15:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
With all due (and genuine respect) Maria, I really don't get it why you are so fixated on this issue. Such statements as "suicidal", "tell you for a fact that Polish soldiers allegedly involved in these war crimes will never challenge this information in an open court" trouble me profoundly. Please step back for a second and think this through. By any stretch of imagination such serious accusation as "War Crimes" requires far more than a single source from page "x" in one book you found. I wish you all the best. Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 15:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Maria, no one here, including myself is making distasteful statements, nor comparing Ambrose, and others to Holocaust deniers. What Chumchum7 had clearly stated was that there are quiet a few individuals who post all sorts of goofy things all over the cyber-universe, many of which have no factual foundation at all. That is all and nothing else. I am very surprised you read it this way ... Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 19:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Needless to say, I find the attitude of user Mariaflores1955 disturbing. We do have a well balanced (though unfinished) article here in Wikipedia called 'Jedwabne pogrom', pointing to evidence in the judicial findings of the Institute of National Remembrance, dating back to 2004. Please explain: why did you chose instead (per above) to quote a 2002 British newsbyte preceding the IPN final report? Is it, because that particular newsbyte from before the conclusion of the Polish most recent court case confirms your bias? The newsbyte is riddled with gross exaggerations and mistakes, not to mention egregious omissions. Therefore, your bringing it here in order to illustrate your point makes your entire discourse suspicious and out of touch with the present. [1] -- Poeticbent talk 21:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, in order to avoid any further confusion on your part, user Mariaflores1955, I agree with you too, that sometimes, the actual facts take years to come out, however, you seem to have completely missed my point about your bizarre reference to an old newsbyte from BBC and also, you ignored my question about why you chose to bring it in here? I asked you specifically. What were you trying to illustrate with your expired source? What point were you trying to make with gross exaggerations disseminated by the British media for political gain? The Jedwabne killins would not have happened without the presence of the German SS, moreover, mass killings by Nazi Einsatzgruppen in the region were confirmed by the German judicial Center for Prosecuting Nazi Crimes in Ludwigsburg, not by the Allies. -- Poeticbent talk 02:53, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the point, Mariaflores, is that your behaviour is giving some people the impression you have an emotional and fixed agenda, as I have already mentioned. You say the Poles need to come up with evidence to disprove three historians' use of hearsay, but at the same time you claim you're a former attorney and are aware of legal process. You have asserted alleged Polish War Crimes as fact, you claim to know Poles will 'NEVER' face the facts about their War Crimes, you draw on Jedwabne as an example of a Polish cover-up in which Germans were unfairly scapegoated, and you have devoted a lot of Wikipedia time to Nazi memorabilia. Really, you'd be winning more friends and influencing people by not implying Germany has been unfairly treated, or whether Allied nations are hypocrites, but by limiting the discussion to Wikipedia rules. For the record, I think Polish reprisal executions of Waffen-SS POWs at Falaise were entirely possible, especially considering the revenge motive. Germans bombarded the Polish Red Cross compound on Hill 262, even after the Poles had allowed a ceasefire for the Germans to evacuate German Red Cross vans out of the Falaise Pocket. According to Lieutenant-Colonel Aleksander Stefanowicz's speech, the the Poles ended the battle with just 110 men, having started with 1500-2000 and having held off 14 German divisions. These included SS troops, who tended not to take untermensch prisoners, as the Stefanowicz speech shows the Poles knew. We should find the data on how many Poles were taken POW by the SS at Hill 262, instead of being shot by the SS when captured, to further assess the revenge motive in the alleged Polish executions. Add the timing of the horrific German behaviour at the Wola massacre and the Warsaw Uprising, and there is definitely a third motive for the killings. Now we need more evidence of Poles saying how proud they are to have executed SS POWs, and ideally some forensic evidence of execution, to prove this. But even then, it is not for us to assert this is a war crime - it is for a court. Until then, all we have are historians' allegations. Every other editor on this page, including me, now agrees that the paragraph should stay off the article while being considered, and I suggest you accept the consensus. I suspect that a group of non-interested, neutral editors would in fact ask us to put the allegations back into the article given there are three credible sources. So sit and wait, you'll likely get what you want. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 09:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Further to my last point, I have just stumbled across a fascinating fact. Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model, the commander of the German assault on Hill 262, was rushed in to command the attack against the Poles at the order of Hitler himself, who also upgraded Model's medal prior to the attack. It seems that just 48 hours earlier, Model had been fighting against the Armia Krajowa on the Eastern Front. Model had been trying but failing to suppress the Warsaw Uprising, where war crimes against Polish civilians and POWs were standard German policy. For the Poles on Hill 262, their moment of victory over Model two days later may have had particular schadenfreude. This is my original research, and I'm not suggesting we include my observations and opinions in the article. This said, the movement of Model from Warsaw to Falaise is a verifiable fact, and we can include that at least. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 12:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is my modest contribution. An excerpt from the "Black Devils March" et al. "In the middle of 10 PSK's position, at the dressing station, which was treating about 300 men, the prisoners were collected. German medical orderlies helped the polish medical staff and their work was model. In front of 10 PSK's lines were around 1,000 dead and wounded. The carnage reflected the desperation of the enemy as they tried to escape the Allied encirclement of their positions [...] General Maczek, meanwhile, demanded that General Elfeldt, with his staff, be sent to him at once. The regimental adjutant made the following reply: "Yes sir (Tak jest) but the regiment cannot guarantee the safety of transporting these prisoners to your (Maczek's) position. "In the face of this testimony, Maczek withdrew his order. In the afternoon, 10 PSK was able to establish contact with the American Army in the Chambois area. A forwardCromwell platoon, under the command of 2nd Lieutenant Kluz, managed to link up with the 385th Infantry Battalion. The Americans gave all possible assistance with the evacuation of the wounded and agreed to take responsibility for the removal of the prisoners from the battlefield, including Elfeldt." [end quote] Incidentally, I encourage Ms. Flores to take a peek at some photos of German prisoners on page 49 of this book. It may surprise you what these photos depict. Hint, Hint! Once again, suppositions, hearsay, and unfounded accusations of one individual with dubious (and by now clear agenda) should not find its place in this otherwise fine Wiki article. In fact, Ms. Flores talent and fascination with all-things-Nazi may be far better served by her contributions to the Nazi memorabilia section where she had contributed significantly. Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 16:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
There may be some misconceptions regarding the role of mediation here. Mediators are not moderators but rather facilitators. The mediator will attempt to bring the various editors to agreement rather than imposing a solution. Having looked at the dispute here it seems to me that mediation is not what is needed. Perhaps I'm missing it, but it doesn't seem like there has been a request for comments opened. If there were to be this would hopefully bring in neutral editors to the discussion. Asking for a third opinion here is not appropriate as that aims to resolve a disagreement between just two editors. I'd suggest you try the request for comments route. It might also be useful to ask for input from the members of the military history wikiproject.
I could give you my opinion. And since nobody objected quickly enough I shall do so. Look at other articles on similar topics. What sort of space do they give to allegations of prisoner killings? My impression based on a sample size of two - not a random sample, that would be useless, so I looked at 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler and 3rd SS Division Totenkopf - is that this article is far too short to justify including the claims at present. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Polish captain:"Here are your prisoners"
Waters:"I donn't want them."
etc.
Polish captain:"Oh,yes we can.They shot my countryman.".He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others.Then he said ,"Captain ,we can't shoot them.We are out of ammunition."
The Polish soldiers of the 1st Armored Division all learned English between 1940 and 1944 as adults and almost certainly spoke it rather poorly. So here a Polish captain meets an American right out of the heat of battle, a conversation ensues, it is brief, the American is not familiar with the Polish accent in English, the Pole probably has not dealt with too many Americans and does not know the American accent. In fact the American source from which the quote comes is making clear that the Pole is speaking broken, ungrammatical English. The conversation is heated, the tired Polish soldier is trying to get out of the stressful situation of escorting prisoners when he has no ammo and so in fact cannot really control them. The American is refusing to follow his orders to accept prisoners, presenting some rather flimsy excuse about numbers. And on the basis of this chaotic "conversation" between people who barely understood each other, someone is trying to build the case for "the most serious Allied war crime in WWII". This is rather ridiculous, obviously.
In fact, one possible explanation is perfectly obvious, at least to me. The Poles are escorting many German prisoners, but the guards are low on ammo. The Polish soldier obviously cannot say this to the American captain near the column within earshot of the Germans, because then they will start running when they hear this and take advantage of the situation. So he takes him aside and tries to explain in broken English that the escort has no ammunition and cannot shoot the Germans, so it is essential that the Americans take control of the prisoners immediately. Makes perfect sense. The American understands this rather differently. Rather humorous, actually. As for the numbers mismatch, such things happen in a war all the time, as miscommunication is common in the fog of war, especially given the communication technology of the 1940s (no cell phones, you know).
Even better in terms of the humor of the situation, maybe the conversation is reported correctly, but the interpretation is wrong. Let's imagine that the Polish officer, exhausted after the battle and tired of escorting prisoners with no ammo, faced with an American officer who is refusing to accept them, made up on the spot the scary story that "you should take them, because we Poles shoot prisoners, you know". Maybe the Polish officers had a good laugh at the mess afterwards about this neat way to offload some prisoners on another unit. I wonder if they would find it funny that this little story is now used 65 years later to accuse them of "war crimes".
Did it happen that way or that ? Who knows. But at least I am illustrating that many interpretations are possible, and using this as evidence of a war crime is a stretch. At best this is an illustration of various rumors were that were swirling behind the Allied front lines at the time, a rather common occurrence in any war.
All joking aside, there were many German prisoners taken in Normandy, who survived and were alive many years after the war. If there were witnesses to atrocities by Polish troops among them, surely they would have come forward by now. If we find publications that mention such allegations from them, then surely we can include them in this article.
Finally, in remembrance of brave Polish soldiers from the 1st Armoured Division who died to stop the Nazi gas chambers and bring freedom to Western Europe and West Germany, and now are accused in such a ridiculous way of war crimes on Wikipedia, I will include a picture. This is actually a photo of a Polish and American officer made at the time of the linkup between the Polish and American units at Falaise. They probably look very much like the two officers who took part in the conversation described. . Sourcelat0r ( talk) 02:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
In order to see how the war crimes of a unit involved in the Normandy campaign should be covered, please see the article 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. It is instructive to compare the weight of evidence presented there with the completely flimsy "evidence" presented here. Sourcelat0r ( talk) 01:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
At the risk of shooting a dead horse here, if the main thrust of the war crimes accusation is based on a a few brief sentences in a book by Ambrose, then his credibility should come under scrutiny. Here the "criticisms" section of the Stephen Ambrose article is quite instructive (in fact the whole article should be read here). It discusses numerous examples of plagiarisms and inaccuracies found in his works. In short, Ambrose is a very popular writer, but he is not considered a serious academic historian. His books are a very good read, but basing such weighty allegations as those discussed here solely on brief mentions in his works is plainly irresponsible. Sourcelat0r ( talk) 03:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be of benefit to all to carefully read Wiki's own definition of Wikipedia:Defamation: "In law, defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for spoken words), and libel (for written or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant)". Robert Warren Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 14:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Chumchum, there is another issue that should be brought forward, that is, the Wikipedia:Appearance of Impropriety. I am citing it here for the benefit of all: "Appearance of impropriety" is a term often used in reference to a situation whose ethics are deemed questionable. It means that any layperson, without knowledge of the facts, would assume that something he/she saw or heard was inappropriate or a violation of a rule/regulation." In the simplest of terms, it is prudent to ask ourselves, what will the Wiki reader think about otherwise distinguished conduct of the First Polish Armoured Division after reading an entry in this article that is based solely on unverifiable sources which libelously and slanderously suggests otherwise? I sincerely hope, that I am not the only one troubled by this! Best, Robert Warren Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 17:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear all, pls take a look at this Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/1st Armoured Division (Poland) and improve on what I have done. I've tried to be as accurate and as fair as possible. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 22:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
This Wikipedia:Dispute resolution is also worth a read. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 23:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Bolekpolivka, above you appear to have outed yourself as a serving officer in the Austrian Army. Please could you clarify for us whether or not you have done this? If so, are you attempting to inform us that you are a representative of the Austrian Federal Ministry of Defence, or the Austrian Armed Forces? Is the implication of the information you have offered us that we should expect interest from the public relations departments of these organizations? Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 08:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, just in case you weren't aware of this beforehand, Wikipedia has quite a strict policy on professional boundaries. As a precaution, it may be in your advantage to take a look at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest if you havn't had a chance to do so already. Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 17:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
How exactly do people think that these two things apply here? Libel can not apply (even in the hugely unlikely situation that anybody would want to do anything about the statement) as there is nothing to identify any person. As for WP:REDFLAG: "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;" We are dealing with a mainstream source and it is not exactly surprising to hear that Allied troops also committed war crimes. "reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;" Given that the likes of Anthony Sawoniuk were welcomed into the Polish army, it's not embarrassing to allege that members of it committed war crimes. "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons." As noted above, at least one convicted war criminal was a member of the Polish army.
These allegations are important and are made in three reliable sources. Readers can judge for themselves whether there is any truth in the allegations or not (I'm firmly in the 'very very little truth if any at all' camp, although I would have to concede that there must certainly have been isolated individual cases of German soldiers being shot rather than taken prisoner and that it is difficult not to see how Waffen SS who spoke fluent Polish (i.e. were most probably Polish) and were taken prisoner by Poles could perhaps have been less than well treated). Varsovian ( talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 12:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
In the Normandy section it says: "The unit was attached to the First Canadian Army. This may have been done to help in communication, as the vast majority of Poles did not speak English when they arrived in UK from 1940 onwards."
So does this mean that: 1) they wanted the Poles subordinated to an English-speaking unit for command and control purposes, rather than operating independently, or that 2) there were sufficient numbers of Polish-language speakers in the Canadian Army to act as translators?
There's no reference linked to this assertion.
192.0.158.233 ( talk) 14:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on 1st Armoured Division (Poland). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:41, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on 1st Armoured Division (Poland). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1st Armoured Division (Poland) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I hope that this is the first of many items written about the Polish first armoured as they saw lots of action and were used as special forces in many ways. It would be nice if the truth were at last written about these heroes who, under Maczek. achieved so many heroic victories which were not mentioned. The Canadians and British took a lot of the glory for the actions of this Polish division and they deserve, at long last, for the truth to be told.
Tielt
On my website I have a section on the Sherman Firefly of the 1st Polish Armored Division in Tielt, Belgium. If someone thinks it's worth to add a link on the page, please feel free to use the following link: http://web.mac.com/davedepickere/World_War_II,_analyzed!/Flanders/Paginas/Tielt.html
Patton76 01:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Poles Breda.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 07:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Poles Wilhelmshafen.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 07:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Polish-1st-Armd-Div-Badge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 08:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
With respect, I think it was a bit radical of Robert Warren to have deleted the section on alleged war crimes. Agreed, one American source is not strong enough evidence to support the case that war crimes took place. But there is no harm in us referring to the allegation of the war crime. Firstly, I have to say the timing looks very interesting. The alleged crime took place at the same time as the Warsaw Uprising, where Axis troops massacred about 200,000 Polish civilians and did the most awful things to Poles, like gang raping terminally ill Polish female cancer patients in their hospital beds. In revenge, I wouldn't be surprised if Polish troops in France did execute about 1000 of their German prisoners, nor would I be surprised if Allied High Command turned a blind eye. Secondly, we should be aware that Allied conduct in France is being re-examined right now, e.g. the Allied bombing of French civilians in Caen, and the allegations of rape of French civilians by the U.S. Army, and that black American soldiers tended to be punished for rape but white American soldiers tended not to be. These subjects have been taboo for a long time, and should not be taboo in an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the solution is for us to refer to the crimes as allegations rather than facts. After all, it is verifiable that allegations have been made, it is not so far verifiable whether of not the crimes took place. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 15:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
"Over the next couple of days,Waters wrote"the Germans attacked with all the fury they they could bring to bear,fueled by their desperation to escape.""Others were trying to surrender,many of them succesfully.Too many,in fact.Neither the Poles nor the Americans had facilities to deal with them.Waters estabilished a POW pen in Chambois,but it was badly overcrowded.Still,one morning a Polish captain brought in some 200 additional POW,s to turn over to the Americans.
Polish captain:"Here are your prisoners"
Waters:"I donn't want them."
Polish captain:"But i must leave them with you.Those are my orders".
Waters:"I still don't want them.Get them out of here".(Waters orders were to accept them.but he had been told to expect 1500;in fact there were only couple of hundred.)
Polish captain: "But i must still leave them with you."
Warers:"well,you were supposed to have 1500 prisoners.Where are they?"
Polish captain:"They are dead.We shoot them.These are all that are left".
Waters: "Then why don't you shoot these too?" A paus,then Waters corrected himself:"No,you can't do that."
Polish captain:"Oh,yes we can.They shot my countryman.".He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others.Then he said ,"Captain ,we can't shoot them.We are out of ammunition."
I hope it suffices... Mariaflores1955 ( talk) 13:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
We took prisoners. Some of those from the Wehrmacht were of Polish birth. They were asked if they would join us: anyone who accepted was given the rifle and paybook of one of the dead! They were unexpected, precious reinforcements. The S.S. and those whose paybooks showed that they had taken part in the invasion of Poland in ’39 received no mercy!
I am told by my colleagues in Poland, that the Ambrose's claim is well know in Poland and it is confirmed by vets of the 1st Armoured Division. In addition the Polish War crimes at Falaise were also mentioned in John Colby’s book "War from the Ground Up"... Mariaflores1955 ( talk) 13:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Well Said. Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 15:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
With all due (and genuine respect) Maria, I really don't get it why you are so fixated on this issue. Such statements as "suicidal", "tell you for a fact that Polish soldiers allegedly involved in these war crimes will never challenge this information in an open court" trouble me profoundly. Please step back for a second and think this through. By any stretch of imagination such serious accusation as "War Crimes" requires far more than a single source from page "x" in one book you found. I wish you all the best. Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 15:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Maria, no one here, including myself is making distasteful statements, nor comparing Ambrose, and others to Holocaust deniers. What Chumchum7 had clearly stated was that there are quiet a few individuals who post all sorts of goofy things all over the cyber-universe, many of which have no factual foundation at all. That is all and nothing else. I am very surprised you read it this way ... Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 19:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Needless to say, I find the attitude of user Mariaflores1955 disturbing. We do have a well balanced (though unfinished) article here in Wikipedia called 'Jedwabne pogrom', pointing to evidence in the judicial findings of the Institute of National Remembrance, dating back to 2004. Please explain: why did you chose instead (per above) to quote a 2002 British newsbyte preceding the IPN final report? Is it, because that particular newsbyte from before the conclusion of the Polish most recent court case confirms your bias? The newsbyte is riddled with gross exaggerations and mistakes, not to mention egregious omissions. Therefore, your bringing it here in order to illustrate your point makes your entire discourse suspicious and out of touch with the present. [1] -- Poeticbent talk 21:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, in order to avoid any further confusion on your part, user Mariaflores1955, I agree with you too, that sometimes, the actual facts take years to come out, however, you seem to have completely missed my point about your bizarre reference to an old newsbyte from BBC and also, you ignored my question about why you chose to bring it in here? I asked you specifically. What were you trying to illustrate with your expired source? What point were you trying to make with gross exaggerations disseminated by the British media for political gain? The Jedwabne killins would not have happened without the presence of the German SS, moreover, mass killings by Nazi Einsatzgruppen in the region were confirmed by the German judicial Center for Prosecuting Nazi Crimes in Ludwigsburg, not by the Allies. -- Poeticbent talk 02:53, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the point, Mariaflores, is that your behaviour is giving some people the impression you have an emotional and fixed agenda, as I have already mentioned. You say the Poles need to come up with evidence to disprove three historians' use of hearsay, but at the same time you claim you're a former attorney and are aware of legal process. You have asserted alleged Polish War Crimes as fact, you claim to know Poles will 'NEVER' face the facts about their War Crimes, you draw on Jedwabne as an example of a Polish cover-up in which Germans were unfairly scapegoated, and you have devoted a lot of Wikipedia time to Nazi memorabilia. Really, you'd be winning more friends and influencing people by not implying Germany has been unfairly treated, or whether Allied nations are hypocrites, but by limiting the discussion to Wikipedia rules. For the record, I think Polish reprisal executions of Waffen-SS POWs at Falaise were entirely possible, especially considering the revenge motive. Germans bombarded the Polish Red Cross compound on Hill 262, even after the Poles had allowed a ceasefire for the Germans to evacuate German Red Cross vans out of the Falaise Pocket. According to Lieutenant-Colonel Aleksander Stefanowicz's speech, the the Poles ended the battle with just 110 men, having started with 1500-2000 and having held off 14 German divisions. These included SS troops, who tended not to take untermensch prisoners, as the Stefanowicz speech shows the Poles knew. We should find the data on how many Poles were taken POW by the SS at Hill 262, instead of being shot by the SS when captured, to further assess the revenge motive in the alleged Polish executions. Add the timing of the horrific German behaviour at the Wola massacre and the Warsaw Uprising, and there is definitely a third motive for the killings. Now we need more evidence of Poles saying how proud they are to have executed SS POWs, and ideally some forensic evidence of execution, to prove this. But even then, it is not for us to assert this is a war crime - it is for a court. Until then, all we have are historians' allegations. Every other editor on this page, including me, now agrees that the paragraph should stay off the article while being considered, and I suggest you accept the consensus. I suspect that a group of non-interested, neutral editors would in fact ask us to put the allegations back into the article given there are three credible sources. So sit and wait, you'll likely get what you want. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 09:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Further to my last point, I have just stumbled across a fascinating fact. Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model, the commander of the German assault on Hill 262, was rushed in to command the attack against the Poles at the order of Hitler himself, who also upgraded Model's medal prior to the attack. It seems that just 48 hours earlier, Model had been fighting against the Armia Krajowa on the Eastern Front. Model had been trying but failing to suppress the Warsaw Uprising, where war crimes against Polish civilians and POWs were standard German policy. For the Poles on Hill 262, their moment of victory over Model two days later may have had particular schadenfreude. This is my original research, and I'm not suggesting we include my observations and opinions in the article. This said, the movement of Model from Warsaw to Falaise is a verifiable fact, and we can include that at least. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 12:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is my modest contribution. An excerpt from the "Black Devils March" et al. "In the middle of 10 PSK's position, at the dressing station, which was treating about 300 men, the prisoners were collected. German medical orderlies helped the polish medical staff and their work was model. In front of 10 PSK's lines were around 1,000 dead and wounded. The carnage reflected the desperation of the enemy as they tried to escape the Allied encirclement of their positions [...] General Maczek, meanwhile, demanded that General Elfeldt, with his staff, be sent to him at once. The regimental adjutant made the following reply: "Yes sir (Tak jest) but the regiment cannot guarantee the safety of transporting these prisoners to your (Maczek's) position. "In the face of this testimony, Maczek withdrew his order. In the afternoon, 10 PSK was able to establish contact with the American Army in the Chambois area. A forwardCromwell platoon, under the command of 2nd Lieutenant Kluz, managed to link up with the 385th Infantry Battalion. The Americans gave all possible assistance with the evacuation of the wounded and agreed to take responsibility for the removal of the prisoners from the battlefield, including Elfeldt." [end quote] Incidentally, I encourage Ms. Flores to take a peek at some photos of German prisoners on page 49 of this book. It may surprise you what these photos depict. Hint, Hint! Once again, suppositions, hearsay, and unfounded accusations of one individual with dubious (and by now clear agenda) should not find its place in this otherwise fine Wiki article. In fact, Ms. Flores talent and fascination with all-things-Nazi may be far better served by her contributions to the Nazi memorabilia section where she had contributed significantly. Robert Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 16:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
There may be some misconceptions regarding the role of mediation here. Mediators are not moderators but rather facilitators. The mediator will attempt to bring the various editors to agreement rather than imposing a solution. Having looked at the dispute here it seems to me that mediation is not what is needed. Perhaps I'm missing it, but it doesn't seem like there has been a request for comments opened. If there were to be this would hopefully bring in neutral editors to the discussion. Asking for a third opinion here is not appropriate as that aims to resolve a disagreement between just two editors. I'd suggest you try the request for comments route. It might also be useful to ask for input from the members of the military history wikiproject.
I could give you my opinion. And since nobody objected quickly enough I shall do so. Look at other articles on similar topics. What sort of space do they give to allegations of prisoner killings? My impression based on a sample size of two - not a random sample, that would be useless, so I looked at 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler and 3rd SS Division Totenkopf - is that this article is far too short to justify including the claims at present. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Polish captain:"Here are your prisoners"
Waters:"I donn't want them."
etc.
Polish captain:"Oh,yes we can.They shot my countryman.".He took Waters by the arm and escorted him away from the others.Then he said ,"Captain ,we can't shoot them.We are out of ammunition."
The Polish soldiers of the 1st Armored Division all learned English between 1940 and 1944 as adults and almost certainly spoke it rather poorly. So here a Polish captain meets an American right out of the heat of battle, a conversation ensues, it is brief, the American is not familiar with the Polish accent in English, the Pole probably has not dealt with too many Americans and does not know the American accent. In fact the American source from which the quote comes is making clear that the Pole is speaking broken, ungrammatical English. The conversation is heated, the tired Polish soldier is trying to get out of the stressful situation of escorting prisoners when he has no ammo and so in fact cannot really control them. The American is refusing to follow his orders to accept prisoners, presenting some rather flimsy excuse about numbers. And on the basis of this chaotic "conversation" between people who barely understood each other, someone is trying to build the case for "the most serious Allied war crime in WWII". This is rather ridiculous, obviously.
In fact, one possible explanation is perfectly obvious, at least to me. The Poles are escorting many German prisoners, but the guards are low on ammo. The Polish soldier obviously cannot say this to the American captain near the column within earshot of the Germans, because then they will start running when they hear this and take advantage of the situation. So he takes him aside and tries to explain in broken English that the escort has no ammunition and cannot shoot the Germans, so it is essential that the Americans take control of the prisoners immediately. Makes perfect sense. The American understands this rather differently. Rather humorous, actually. As for the numbers mismatch, such things happen in a war all the time, as miscommunication is common in the fog of war, especially given the communication technology of the 1940s (no cell phones, you know).
Even better in terms of the humor of the situation, maybe the conversation is reported correctly, but the interpretation is wrong. Let's imagine that the Polish officer, exhausted after the battle and tired of escorting prisoners with no ammo, faced with an American officer who is refusing to accept them, made up on the spot the scary story that "you should take them, because we Poles shoot prisoners, you know". Maybe the Polish officers had a good laugh at the mess afterwards about this neat way to offload some prisoners on another unit. I wonder if they would find it funny that this little story is now used 65 years later to accuse them of "war crimes".
Did it happen that way or that ? Who knows. But at least I am illustrating that many interpretations are possible, and using this as evidence of a war crime is a stretch. At best this is an illustration of various rumors were that were swirling behind the Allied front lines at the time, a rather common occurrence in any war.
All joking aside, there were many German prisoners taken in Normandy, who survived and were alive many years after the war. If there were witnesses to atrocities by Polish troops among them, surely they would have come forward by now. If we find publications that mention such allegations from them, then surely we can include them in this article.
Finally, in remembrance of brave Polish soldiers from the 1st Armoured Division who died to stop the Nazi gas chambers and bring freedom to Western Europe and West Germany, and now are accused in such a ridiculous way of war crimes on Wikipedia, I will include a picture. This is actually a photo of a Polish and American officer made at the time of the linkup between the Polish and American units at Falaise. They probably look very much like the two officers who took part in the conversation described. . Sourcelat0r ( talk) 02:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
In order to see how the war crimes of a unit involved in the Normandy campaign should be covered, please see the article 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. It is instructive to compare the weight of evidence presented there with the completely flimsy "evidence" presented here. Sourcelat0r ( talk) 01:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
At the risk of shooting a dead horse here, if the main thrust of the war crimes accusation is based on a a few brief sentences in a book by Ambrose, then his credibility should come under scrutiny. Here the "criticisms" section of the Stephen Ambrose article is quite instructive (in fact the whole article should be read here). It discusses numerous examples of plagiarisms and inaccuracies found in his works. In short, Ambrose is a very popular writer, but he is not considered a serious academic historian. His books are a very good read, but basing such weighty allegations as those discussed here solely on brief mentions in his works is plainly irresponsible. Sourcelat0r ( talk) 03:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be of benefit to all to carefully read Wiki's own definition of Wikipedia:Defamation: "In law, defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for spoken words), and libel (for written or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant)". Robert Warren Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 14:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Chumchum, there is another issue that should be brought forward, that is, the Wikipedia:Appearance of Impropriety. I am citing it here for the benefit of all: "Appearance of impropriety" is a term often used in reference to a situation whose ethics are deemed questionable. It means that any layperson, without knowledge of the facts, would assume that something he/she saw or heard was inappropriate or a violation of a rule/regulation." In the simplest of terms, it is prudent to ask ourselves, what will the Wiki reader think about otherwise distinguished conduct of the First Polish Armoured Division after reading an entry in this article that is based solely on unverifiable sources which libelously and slanderously suggests otherwise? I sincerely hope, that I am not the only one troubled by this! Best, Robert Warren Doomed Soldiers ( talk) 17:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear all, pls take a look at this Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/1st Armoured Division (Poland) and improve on what I have done. I've tried to be as accurate and as fair as possible. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 22:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
This Wikipedia:Dispute resolution is also worth a read. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 23:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Bolekpolivka, above you appear to have outed yourself as a serving officer in the Austrian Army. Please could you clarify for us whether or not you have done this? If so, are you attempting to inform us that you are a representative of the Austrian Federal Ministry of Defence, or the Austrian Armed Forces? Is the implication of the information you have offered us that we should expect interest from the public relations departments of these organizations? Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 08:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, just in case you weren't aware of this beforehand, Wikipedia has quite a strict policy on professional boundaries. As a precaution, it may be in your advantage to take a look at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest if you havn't had a chance to do so already. Many thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 17:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
How exactly do people think that these two things apply here? Libel can not apply (even in the hugely unlikely situation that anybody would want to do anything about the statement) as there is nothing to identify any person. As for WP:REDFLAG: "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;" We are dealing with a mainstream source and it is not exactly surprising to hear that Allied troops also committed war crimes. "reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;" Given that the likes of Anthony Sawoniuk were welcomed into the Polish army, it's not embarrassing to allege that members of it committed war crimes. "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons." As noted above, at least one convicted war criminal was a member of the Polish army.
These allegations are important and are made in three reliable sources. Readers can judge for themselves whether there is any truth in the allegations or not (I'm firmly in the 'very very little truth if any at all' camp, although I would have to concede that there must certainly have been isolated individual cases of German soldiers being shot rather than taken prisoner and that it is difficult not to see how Waffen SS who spoke fluent Polish (i.e. were most probably Polish) and were taken prisoner by Poles could perhaps have been less than well treated). Varsovian ( talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 12:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
In the Normandy section it says: "The unit was attached to the First Canadian Army. This may have been done to help in communication, as the vast majority of Poles did not speak English when they arrived in UK from 1940 onwards."
So does this mean that: 1) they wanted the Poles subordinated to an English-speaking unit for command and control purposes, rather than operating independently, or that 2) there were sufficient numbers of Polish-language speakers in the Canadian Army to act as translators?
There's no reference linked to this assertion.
192.0.158.233 ( talk) 14:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on 1st Armoured Division (Poland). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:41, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on 1st Armoured Division (Poland). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)